223 Journey and Learnings as Former Second Lady of the United States with Karen Pence

223. Journey and Learnings as Former Second Lady of the United States with Karen Pence

 

Jonah 2:8 "Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs."

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Questions and Topics We Cover:

1. Will you tell us about meeting your (now) husband for the first time and share a bit of your love story?

2. What unique joys and sorrows did your family experience as you raised children in a political family in Washington DC?

3. Will you tell us more about your experience with the Secret Service, both for you and for them?

 

Karen Pence is a former congressional spouse, first lady of Indiana, and second lady of the United States. She worked as a schoolteacher for more than thirty years and started her own watercolor business. She is also the mother of three married children and a grandmother. She lives with her family in Zionsville, Indiana.

 

Connect with Karen Pence on X or Instagram

 

When It's Your Turn to Serve by Karen Pence

 

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Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Sam Leman Eureka

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

[00:00:00] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

[00:00:17] <music>

Laura Dugger: The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka. Owned and operated by the Bertschi Family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at Lemangm.com.

My guest today is former First Lady of Indiana and former Second Lady of the United States, Mrs. Karen Pence. She recently documented her interesting life journey in a book entitled When It's Your Turn to Serve: Experiencing God's Grace in His Calling for Your Life.

We're going to get to hear a little bit more of her back story through this conversation. But I do want to let you know up front, we had a few issues with the audio quality, and I do apologize. [00:01:22] But I also want to encourage you to stay with us, because what is lacking in audio quality is certainly made up for in quality conversation and storytelling, because Mrs. Pence has so much goodness to share. 

Here's our chat. 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Mrs. Pence. 

Karen Pence: Great to be here, Laura.

Laura Dugger: Well, will you start by just first giving us a glimpse into your current phase of life?

Karen Pence: Yes, you know, it's interesting because Mike and I are at that stage now where we raise our kids. They're all married and we have three precious little granddaughters. 

It's an interesting time for us. You know, we've spent most of our married life being in public service, serving in political office. Now we're serving, you know, as private citizens. And so it's interesting to see where God is leading us and the opportunities that He's bringing our way. [00:02:25] Because, you know, one thing that we've learned over the years is that God can use us wherever He wants to. So it's an exciting time for us just to kind of see what God's plans are for us now.

Laura Dugger: I love that. Let's also just back it up a few years. Will you tell us about the first time you met your now husband and just share a little bit of your love story?

Karen Pence: Yes, actually it's a funny story. Mike tells it really... it's hysterical to hear him tell it. But I was actually playing guitar in a guitar group in a worship group in church. He came up to me after the service and actually said he wanted to join the guitar group. And I said, "Well, you would need to talk to the guy with the beard." At that point, he stuck out his hand and said, "I'm Mike Pence." And I realized that was just his ploy to meet me. [00:03:26] 

Although he could have followed it up. He actually does play guitar and he's played in some worship groups before. But he was in law school, and I said, "Oh, my sister's in law school, too." So he looked her up, got her phone number, and called her house. But I was at her house the day that he called. I was watching her two kids and I was the one who answered the phone. And when he found out it was me, I think he got a little bit scared and actually hung up on me. Then he called right back and we laughed about it. 

But our first date was taking those two ice skating and the rest is history.

Laura Dugger: Oh, I love that so much. One other coincidental thing that you mention in your book is that first conversation took place at a church that you write was right across the street from the Indiana governor's residence where we would serve 30 years later. [00:04:25] 

Karen Pence: Yeah. It's funny because it's literally right across the street. Little did we know that God was going to bring us full circle and actually have us serve and live in the governor's residence years later.

Laura Dugger: Well, something else that I also appreciate in your book, you quote scripture throughout, but there's some powerful words in the Bible specifically from Jonah 2:8. So will you share that scripture and elaborate how God has used those words to guide you throughout the year?

Karen Pence: Well, I'm glad you asked about that, Laura, because in my book, When It's Your Turn to Serve, one of the things I try and do is encourage the reader to be willing to step out if you feel God's call on your life. I certainly never anticipated that I was going to end up being the second lady of the United States.  

But when we first started out, we had just bought a little house and we were so excited. [00:05:29] It was the first home that we had owned, but it was outside of the congressional district. And when Mike and I had decided to go ahead and make that first run for Congress, we realized we're going to have to move. We felt we should live in the district and the district encompassed the area where I taught and the area where he had lived his whole life and grown up. And so we had to move to run. 

The verse that we clung to that first campaign, Jonah 2:8, "Is those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs." So for us, the worthless idol was the little house that we had just bought, because by letting go of that and following God's calling, it led to so many opportunities through the years.

I think back to what if we hadn't been willing to give up that little house, all of the opportunities that we would have missed over the years. It's not always easy to give up, you know, those idols, but I find that when we do, we experience God's grace. That's the subtitle of my book is Experiencing God's Grace in His Calling for Your Life. [00:06:52] When he calls us, he truly does give us the grace. 

And so for us, many times we've had to say, Okay, are we clinging to some worthless idol right now? Are we afraid of stepping out and trusting God? And so it's actually a verse that we have carried with us for 38 years of marriage.

Laura Dugger: Yes, it certainly seemed to play out multiple times throughout your life. There was one pivotal conversation when Mike was just questioning someone for how to prepare now to run for Congress in his 50s. So will you share that story?

Karen Pence: Right. I mean, it was interesting because he and a friend decided to go speak to the county chairman. Because Mike and I at that time, when we were first married, he was the precinct committeeman and I was the vice committeewoman. And it was a great opportunity for us to start getting involved in politics. Because when you're the precinct committeeman, you go around to your neighbors, you get them registered to vote, you work at the polls on Election Day. [00:08:00] It's just a great way to meet all of the people in your community.

So Mike decided to go to the county chairman and say, Okay, this is what we're doing right now. But what should we be doing in addition to that in case I decide to run for Congress years later? And the county chairman simply said, "You should run. You should run right now. Because the best way to learn about running for an office is just to jump in with both feet and run for office." And so that's what we did.

It's interesting because we didn't win that election. We didn't win the next election either. It would be 12 years later that we ran one more time and actually Mike won his run for Congress.

Laura Dugger: Wow. That is relatable that even when we hear through maybe somebody else speaking some encouragement into our life, that God still has a plan in that timing, even though it's maybe unexpected. [00:09:05] But as your family grew and you added children, can you elaborate on more ways that God's timing was different than your own, but perfect overall?

Karen Pence: Yes. Because, you know what, Laura? I want to say all I ever wanted was to be a mom. That's all I ever wanted. I was an elementary teacher then. Actually, I taught all the way through my time at Second Lady. But I was teaching school. I loved kids. I just wanted to be a mom. 

What we found was God wasn't bringing us children when we first got married. I was 28 when we got married, and it actually took us six years before I got pregnant with our first, Michael. So I was 34 when we had our first child and 38 when we had our third. 

You know, for any of your listeners who may be struggling with infertility, or maybe you're trying to get a certain job and it's not working out, or you're wanting to buy a home, or you're wanting to find your mate, your partner, and the timing just, you know, you keep having to wait and wait and wait. [00:10:18] God's timing is perfect. When you're in the midst of it, it doesn't seem that way. 

I remember thinking, "I don't understand this. I'm an elementary teacher. I don't have these big desires to be wealthy or famous or have some huge career. I just want to be a mom." And everyone around us was having babies.

I tell the story in the book. I remember being at one Easter brunch and my little niece leaned over and said to me, "Auntie Karen, why don't you have any babies?" And I said, "I don't know. God hasn't brought me any babies yet." And so for me, I couldn't understand why God wasn't bringing us babies. We wanted them now. We were ready. Mike was working. I was working. I'd had many years of my career already. 

But what I found was His timing was perfect. [00:11:19] Because by the time we did go to Washington, our kids were elementary age, the lower elementary age. And if we had had them when we wanted to, they would have been teenagers when Mike got elected to Congress. And I don't know if I would have wanted to move teenage kids to Washington. It might have been a little more difficult. 

And so the way that God's timing worked out, by the time we went to Washington, they were in elementary school. And when we went there, it was also another miracle that I got a job teaching art in their school. So all of these things kind of when you look back on your life, you have the wisdom of age and experience to kind of look back and say, "I get it. That's why you didn't want us to have kids when we wanted to have kids." And the timing, when I look back, is just absolutely perfect. [00:12:19] 

I look at the people that my kids met who are their spouses now and their experiences and the friends they made in school and how they've been lifelong friends. It's just all of these little things go together. And God knew, no, I'm not going to bring you children until I know it's the perfect time.

Laura Dugger: What you did is so unique because you really stayed together as a family unit. I'm curious, what unique joys and sorrows did your family experience as you raised your children in a political family in Washington, D.C.? 

Karen Pence: Well, you know, it's interesting when we decided to move to Washington after Mike won, it's a difficult thing in politics when you're elected to Congress because Congress serves in Washington, D.C., but your home is in another state. And it's difficult for these congressional families. [00:13:21] And they all make whatever choice works best for their family. 

We found, for us, that we wanted to be together as a family. So Mike hit it head-on with our constituents and he just said, "You know, I ran on family values and so for me, I'm keeping my family with me." And so we moved with him to Washington. We still had our home in Indiana. We kept that. We would come back on weekends and summer. And when Mike would come back to the district, he would stay there.

But we knew that we needed to be where Mike was. He still did 52 town halls a year in his congressional district, came back all the time. What we did was we started kind of incorporating him taking one of the kids with him. So maybe Audrey would go with him for a weekend. You know, here she was a little first grader, second grader. She would introduce her dad at events and pass out flyers and they'd go out to dinner together. [00:14:30] 

And so we tried to kind of make it a family thing, even when Mike had to travel back to the district. We just wanted him to be where we were and we wanted to be where he was the majority of his time. We would take dinner to the Capitol. We would have tacos on the steps of the Capitol or we would bring root beer floats and make them for him and the staff. Or we'd go to the restaurant across the street from the Capitol. And he would be able to leave and come to soccer games or puppet shows or parent-teacher conferences and then head back for votes. So for us, it really worked out well for us to be with him. 

I remember when we were sitting on the front porch of our home in Arlington, Virginia, with the moving truck packed and we were heading back to Indiana after 12 years in Congress and Mike was going to run for governor. [00:15:31] I sat there on the porch with him and he got tears in his eyes and he looked at me and said, "Thank you." And I said, "What are you thanking me for?" And he said, "Thank you for moving here and for me not missing any of this." 

It was a way that he was intimately involved in in our day-to-day life and the neighbors and the kids at school and the church. So for us, we decided to keep our family together.

But every congressional family has to do it however they need to. You know, if I were a dentist and Mike was elected to Congress, I wouldn't want to just move my whole dental practice to Washington. So, you know, there are situations where the spouses and the family can't move. But for us, that's what worked best for us.

Laura Dugger: I love hearing your story. And I'm sure it's one that, like Mike even mentioned, you don't have regrets then when you look back. [00:16:33] But it's apparent that parenting is so important to both of you. I love this quote from page 61 where you're talking about parenting and you write, quote, "I learned to rely on my faith, my friends, and to read everything I could about how to parent any particular age," end quote. I just thought that was so applicable to all of us parents. 

I just want to share one other quote that's from page 29, where you write, "When your life seems to be going on smoothly, that's usually when God puts it into a blender. And He had such different plans for us, plans way beyond what we ever could have imagined or planned for. Amazing plans. Not easy, but amazing." 

So, Mrs. Pence, will you take us into that part of your life when things really started to rapidly change?

Karen Pence: You know, Laura, when you say that, there are like about 10 or 15 times in my life where that's happened. [00:17:38] It wasn't really just one. But I mean, it does seem that way, that God... you know, He wants us on our knees and He wants us dependent on Him. 

When we decided to go ahead and run for Congress that third time, our kids were, you know, five, six, and seven. We had built our dream home. I had started my watercolor practice and Mike had his own talk radio show. I mean, we were set... Our kids cemented their handprints in the driveway. I mean, this was where we knew we are going to live in this home the whole time we raise our kids. We are set. 

And that's when the seat became an open seat and people started approaching Mike to run again for Congress. This time, I really did have to give up the idol of this dream home. And we were established and our kids were all in school. [00:18:42] That was when I really had to say, "Lord, you want me to raise my kids in Washington, D.C.? How could you possibly want that for us?" So we really struggled with that decision. 

Actually, I tell the story in the book about how I took Mike to a dude ranch for his 40th birthday. It was a surprise gift. One day he and I rode horses up to the top of this bluff in the Teddy Roosevelt National Forest. And we got off of our horses, and we were trying to make a decision that week whether or not we were going to run a third time. It would mean a lot of sacrifices for us, and it would mean really changing our life completely. 

We were sitting there on that bluff, and Mike said, "We've got to make a decision." And right then, these two red-tailed hawks were just rising on the wind and they weren't flapping their wings, but they were lifting higher and higher, just rising on the wind currents. [00:19:48] 

Mike is romantic. He looked out, and he said, "You know, those two red-tailed hawks are like us." And I said, "Well, if those two hawks are like us, then I think we should run. But this time, we should do it with no flapping. We should step off of this cliff. And if God wants to lift us up like He is the hawks, then we'll let Him take us where He wants us to go." 

Because the first two times we had run, Laura, we had been pretty arrogant and pretty full of ourselves. Honestly, we really thought Mike and Karen Pence are going to be God's gift to Washington, D.C. I really believe that's why God did not let us be successful then. Because this third run that was going to totally change our whole lives, we were completely dependent on Him. And we wanted Him to be in control, and we just wanted to make ourselves available. [00:20:50] 

I think that's one of the lessons that I try and share throughout the book, is that you can experience God's grace in His calling for your life. Not your decision on what you want to do for your life, but what He wants you to do. That story we share with every staff member, every staff retreat, because we don't want anyone even around us or on our staff who is doing it just for selfish purposes.

Once again, here he was governor, again, our life just got thrown into the blender when Donald Trump called and asked him to run as his running mate. Again, it was that giving up our second run for governor, giving up living in Indiana, going on the campaign trail. 

So a lot of the experiences that I share in the book are some of the sacrifices and struggles of following God's call. [00:21:52] But I also hope that people see woven throughout the blessings and the grace that God just showered us with and continues to shower us with. I think that fulfillment in life comes from accepting His call and being open to His call.

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Laura Dugger: I just want to zero in on one of those topics. When he receives this phone call from Donald Trump, were the two of you surprised at that point, or what were your thoughts and details of that chapter? [00:23:53] 

Karen Pence: You know, that was a surprise. I think the reason it was such a surprise for me was because when we actually went to Bedminster and met with Donald and Melania Trump and had dinner with them and talked about the possibility — we knew he was looking at other people then — at the end of the dinner, he said to Mike, "Well, you know, this will work out okay for you. I mean, we'll find a place for you. We'll find a place for you in the administration." 

I said to Mike after dinner, heading back to our room, I said, "Well, he's not picking you. I mean, he made it very clear that he'll find a place for you in the administration, but he's not going to pick you for his vice president." So when he called, it truly was quite a surprise. It was really a surprise.

Laura Dugger: I was fascinated then if we fast forward to when you are in that chapter where your husband is the vice president, you're the second lady of the United States. [00:24:58] And I was so fascinated by this chapter on Secret Service. So will you tell us more about that experience, both for you and for them?

Karen Pence: You know, it's interesting. One of the things I try to do in the book is tell some of the behind-the-scenes stories that people don't necessarily hear about. Like what's it like to move to the vice president's residence? I mean, how do you get furniture? How do you move in? 

And I think one of the things that most people ask me about is the Secret Service, because, you know, in our culture, we hold the Secret Service in such high esteem. These are men and women who literally put their lives on the line every day. It's a very humbling thing to have someone willing to do that who really doesn't know Karen Pence very well. [00:25:57] 

One of the things that I wanted to do was I wanted to do a chapter on the Secret Service. I included in that chapter a little speech that I gave at one of our very last Christmas parties at the vice president's residence. It was after the election and the Secret Service families were all there celebrating with us. 

I wanted the families to know how much we value them and how much we value the Secret Service members. And so I told a couple of little stories to the families there, because what they may not realize is that the Secret Service puts their lives on the line for that office holder. It's not necessarily Mike and Karen Pence, but they know that they have to protect the United States seat of government and they have to protect the principles because it would have effects all over the world if something happened to the vice president. [00:27:06] So they really take their job very seriously.

But what people may not understand is they frequently have to move. I tell in the book about how we moved 18 times and the pros and cons of that. But these Secret Service families have the same difficulties. They also have to serve at a moment's notice for whatever we decide to do. So we might call up our lead agent and say, "You know what, I think we want to go for a bike ride today." So, boom, immediately they've got to get everybody in place. They've got to get their bikes out. They've got to get our bikes out. They've got to go to a bike path that they've already scouted out in their free time.

It's a complicated thing just to go for a bike ride or go to a movie or to get some ice cream at the grocery store or whatever, take a walk. And so it's a kind of job where they don't really know what their job is going to entail each and every day. [00:28:06] 

For me, when I went back to teaching at the school where I had taught art for 12 years when my kids were there, when Mike was in Congress, called me when I was second lady and said, "Our art teacher just left and we would love it if you could maybe just fill in or can you just help us out a little bit?" And I ended up teaching there for my last three years as second lady. Even during that time, there would be Secret Service agents out in the hallway. 

It's a very strange thing to have someone around you all the time. One of the things that they do in the Secret Service is they rotate and change your detail all the time. So I would just get used to the people on my detail.

There would usually be six to eight people who were assigned to me at any one time. Then they would come to me and say, "Okay, they're moving on. They're going to their next assignment," and I'd get brand new people. [00:29:14] 

It's a little bit daunting to have new people. Sometimes I'd walk out to the car and I'd say, "I hope you guys are the real people because I've never seen you before and you're a brand new person with me today." So it's kind of a daunting thing to have someone who is constantly around you that you don't necessarily know very well. 

Then on the flip side, you know, I tell the story in the book about how amazing... I talk about one agent, Max Million, who was our very first agent starting at the convention and going all the way through until he took over. He was with Kamala Harris on the day she took her oath. So Max was with us the whole time. He traveled with our daughter, Audrey, when she took foreign trips as a college student. 

You know, imagine being a college student who has a Secret Service agent with you all the time. It's pretty annoying to a college student. [00:30:18] They had their good moments and their bad moments. 

But when Audrey got married, Max is the agent she wanted to be on her detail that day. It's a very sweet thing to work through some of these difficulties with these agents because we're brand new to this. This is their life. But they very graciously kind of help us to adjust to having them there all the time. But they are wonderful men and women. Truly, truly wonderful men and women.

Laura Dugger: Yes. I learned so much from your chapter and just really grew in empathy for you both as you let us in on the things we wouldn't be aware of, how they were outside your bathroom and down the hall as you got a late-night snack or, like you said, in college, along for your kids' dates and just always having eyes watching. But then really also you flip the script so well. And we consider their family life having to be so flexible to change plans with little notice. [00:31:27] So I really appreciated that. 

But you've been both First Lady of Indiana and Second Lady of the United States, which are roles that all of us listening will probably never have the chance to experience. So will you let us in on any other surprising parts of both of these roles of service?

Karen Pence: Well, one of the things I wanted to do when I wrote the book and my staff said to me, "If you don't write a book, we're going to write it" because there were a lot of great initiatives that we were able to champion. 

When I became first lady, I just felt like, "Okay, now people are taking my phone call. I mean, I actually am in a position of influence. What am I going to do with that opportunity?" Because the time is short. That's one of the things I try and encourage the reader to think about in your own life. [00:32:28] Your opportunities sometimes are just for a short period of time. And for me, that was true. 

So as first lady of Indiana, one of the things I did, I tell the story about how a friend of mine, Patty Coons, kept coming to me and saying, "You need to have a first lady's luncheon like we do in Washington every year. You're the first lady of Indiana now and you need to do this." I actually reached a point where I was afraid to even answer her phone call. Finally, I said, "Patty, I can't give a luncheon for myself. That doesn't even make any sense." 

However, I found as I, you know, grew into the role of first lady at many, many, many organizations wanted me to champion their cause, but I knew I couldn't do that. So what I ended up doing was I started the Indiana First Lady's Charitable Foundation. We did have a first lady's luncheon, a very high-end luncheon, custom tablecloths, a surprise entertainer, custom gift bags for every attendee. [00:33:43] And we raised money for charities in all 92 counties that championed families and kids.

So for me, I finally figured out a way to take this suggestion from my friend and turn it into a way that now I could say to all of these groups that were reaching out to me, I could just say, go ahead and apply for a grant because we're giving out grants for anything that actually benefits the family. For me, I wanted to just kind of figure out, how can I take this moment and make the most of it? 

We did the same thing in the office of the second lady. When I became second lady, Barbara Bush sent me a note and she said, "Karen, congratulations on being second lady. When I was second lady, I woke up every morning trying to do something good for someone, and the press never paid any attention to me." [00:34:50] But when George became the nominee for president, my tongue started getting me into trouble. And it's gotten me into trouble ever since. 

And I realized, you know, the office of the second lady, we really didn't get much attention for some of the things that we were doing but it didn't really stop me or my small staff from really making a difference. We championed art therapy, especially for our veterans and we worked with lifting up our military spouses.

You know, I like to say they're the home front heroes and they need a lot of support. They really kind of keep the home going while their service member is deployed and they have to move every two or three years. 

Then we also champion just beekeeping actually. When I was first lady of Indiana, I heard about another first lady who started a beehive and how she used that with their constituents in their state. And I thought, "What a great idea." I mean, we hear all the time that our bees are struggling. The governor's residence was on six acres and so I started a beehive there. [00:36:10] 

Then when I became second lady, I started a beehive at the vice president's residence. Then every time we took a trip or traveled with Mike anywhere in the world or the United States, my staff and I would just tag on a little visit to visit the beekeepers in that particular community. 

Actually, one of the things that we did, we tried to do several different events kind of centered around the bees. We would have kids come to the vice president's residence and teach them about the bees and teach them about ways that all of us can support bees. 

For example, one of the things we had the kids do was we said, If you just live in an apartment, you can go out on your balcony and you can put a little bowl with rocks in it and fill it with water. And then the bees can kind of stand on those rocks and they can get a drink. [00:37:12] Or if you plant a pollinator garden. 

So these are a lot of different things that we did to kind of educate people about ways they can help bees in their community. We learned so much about the bees, so much so that in the book, When It's Your Turn to Serve, I actually start every chapter with a little fun bee fact, because I learned that if God can give this little honeybee everything that it needs, surely he can give me what I need when He calls me to service.

Laura Dugger: Do you have any other favorite facts about bees or even deeper life lessons that you've learned from bees?

Karen Pence: Well, I think, one of the fun things for me was when I was writing the book and I wrote it with my daughter Charlotte. She's a published author and we've done some other projects before. So I said to her, "I have this idea that I'd like to start each chapter with a bee fact." It really was so much fun for us. [00:38:24] 

For example, there's one chapter where I talk about how all of our kids got married between the election 2016 and the election 2020. I mean, all three of our kids got married in that time period. And two of them actually had two weddings because our son is in the military. So they had a small wedding and then their big wedding later. 

And then Audrey was a COVID bride. So she ended up having a small wedding and then her larger wedding later after COVID. So I thought, you know, it'd be fun for that chapter, let's talk about the fact that when a hive gets too big, the bees will swarm. So some of the bees will actually leave the hive. 

So I just tried to find a bee fact that kind of went with whatever I was talking about in that particular chapter. The Secret Service chapter, the bee fact is about the guard bees, you know, just little things like that. [00:39:25] But it really was interesting everywhere I went to hear some fascinating thing about the bees. 

I remember I was in Montana and a beekeeper said to me, "Well, you can see the ones coming back to the hive they're the ones who are flying lower to the ground." And I said, "How can you possibly know which bees are leaving the hive and which ones are coming back? How can you possibly know that?" 

And he said, "Oh, it's very easy." He said, "The ones who are coming back to the hive, their little pollen sacks on their legs are full of pollen. And they're flying lower to the ground because they have that weight of the pollen in their little pollen sacks." And when I looked closer, I could see these little yellow spots on the bees that were lower to the ground. And they were the ones that were returning to the hive. 

But the book is just full of fun little facts about the bees and how they communicate and how they build the honeycomb. [00:40:30] Every single bee makes the honeycomb the same way. And it's on a slight slant so that the larvae, if the larvae are in the comb or if honey is in there, so that it doesn't fall out. 

It's just fascinating to me that God would take each bee and impart that wisdom into them. And each one has that DNA in them. So I learned a lot about myself and about God just by learning little facts about the bees.

Laura Dugger: How did you find out about The Savvy Sauce? Did someone share this podcast with you? Hopefully you've been blessed through the content.

And now we would love to invite each of you to share these episodes with friends and help us spread the word about The Savvy Sauce. You can share today's episode or go back and choose any one of your other previous favorites to share. Thanks for helping us out. [00:41:31] 

Well, you've also incorporated art in some thoughtful ways, almost as Ebeneezers in your life. And even the inside of your book includes your beautiful watercolor. But will you just share a few ways that art has captured meaningful moments in your life?

Karen Pence: Well, I realized when I started looking back over all my watercolors over the years that they kind of coordinated with different chapters of the book. Years before Mike was governor, I had actually done a watercolor of the governor's residence for a fundraiser that they did there. I had done a watercolor of the vice president's residence. I had done a watercolor... Like one of the things I talk about is when I had the privilege of leading two different delegations to the Special Olympics World Games. I share the watercolor that I painted to give a print to each one of the participants, each one of the athletes. [00:42:36] 

And so I started realizing almost every chapter has a watercolor that kind of goes with it. What we ended up doing was the middle section of the book is actually full of different watercolors that I've done. I did a whole set of hummingbirds because that was my code name that the Secret Service gave me. So just little things I realized. So we can kind of put the watercolors in here, you know, instead of actual photographs. 

But over the years, when I first started learning about art therapy, I was fascinated, Laura, that I was visiting a children's hospital in Washington and these kids were asking when do I get to come back to the hospital? Because they had worked with an art therapist and they had art projects that were not completed. 

I started learning about the profession of art therapy. And while I have a master's degree in art education, I am not an art therapist. [00:43:39] I was fascinated by these art therapists who are master's and doctorate-level trained therapists who use art in their therapy sessions. In fact, still today, just last week, I'm involved again now that we're back in Indiana with the art therapists at Riley Hospital for Children in Indiana. 

And I started realizing that art therapy is used as well for our veterans or anyone who struggles with post-traumatic stress disorder. Anyone who's gone through any type of stress and learning how the side of the brain that is affected by trauma is the verbal side. A lot of times our vets come back and they can't talk about what happened to them and they can't seem to share. And they're struggling with anger or fear or relationships. The art therapists are able to use art to help them get some of those feelings out so that then they can start to express themselves and heal. [00:44:50] And I started hearing about some of these success stories.

One that I talk about in the book is a Marine named Chris Stowe. He had tried everything and was just really, really struggling. He was having marriage difficulties and all kinds of issues. What the art therapist was able to do was to find something that Chris could do that would help him get to the root issue of what he actually needed to deal with. 

It was actually glassblowing. Chris discovered that the furnace of the fire and the glassblowing and the molten glass was something that really, really helped him. Now he actually has a glassblowing studio that other vets come to and work. 

I mean, the book is full of these stories of all these different amazing stories. And I just was fascinated with this.  I knew that if I, as someone with a master's degree in art education, didn't know about art therapy, there probably were a lot of people out there who didn't know about art therapy. [00:46:05] 

So I tell the story in the book about how my staff and I started at the very beginning and became educated about how art therapy started, where it started, some of the success stories. And then we visited art therapists literally all over the world.

There's some fabulous stories in there about ways that we were able to help even get an art therapy program started in Japan. It was a wonderful experience, I think, for me and for my entire staff. 

We tell another story. This is one your listeners might relate to. 

We had... it's a program called Combat Paper. And what happens is when a military member gets out of the military, it's very difficult because this has been their identity for, what, 12, 15, 20, 30 years. And they have worn their uniform almost every single day of that service. [00:47:05] Tell the story of how Combat Paper started in California and the service member will take their uniform and they will cut it into little tiny pieces.

They put those pieces into a pulp machine, which kind of grinds them up like a blender. And then they roll that pulp out into a piece of paper, a very thick piece of paper, and they let it dry. And then on that paper, they put some kind of new image, whether they use a stencil that's provided or a drawing of their own or painting or words. But they take that old identity and they change it into something new. 

This is just one example of all the amazing things that our art therapists do every single day with our vets and people with cancer, children in hospitals, people who have gone through some kind of stress in their life. [00:48:06] The stories in the book are just fascinating to see how art can be used.

Laura Dugger: I appreciated your stories so much. Even thinking within your marriage, there are two stories that come into mind. One, that your husband used to draw cartoons, I believe, for the newspaper when he was in law school. Is that right?

Karen Pence: Yeah, it was just a little local law school paper.

Laura Dugger: I just loved that you had the idea to go back and publish all of his cartoons and bind them together to gift to him. Also, when you'd captured a picture of the two red-tailed hawks on the ledge of part of the White House and you had that framed, it was just so inspiring and a great reminder to incorporate and preserve art in our own lives to capture and remember some specific ways that God is moving. [00:49:08] 

Karen Pence: Very true. Very true.

Laura Dugger: Well, is there any other scripture that God has used to personally encourage you that you would like to pass along as encouragement to each of us?

Karen Pence: One of the things I wanted to do in the book was weave scriptures throughout. Because, you know, one thing Mike and I do is every morning we read the Bible together and we just get out our reading through the Bible in a year. It's just a great way for us to see how scripture comes alive in both of our lives every single morning.

Even though we read through the Bible many times, every single time we read a scripture, it has something new for us. There have been scriptures that I shared in the book that I've clung to. You know, I mentioned that we moved 18 times and that could be... I mean, I tell some of the stories in the book that just, I mean, you would not believe the circumstances where we had to move and move suddenly. [00:50:09] 

One of the verses is in Deuteronomy and it says that God will go before us and search out places for us to camp. And I have clung to that verse so many times. When I have friends move or when I have my kids looking for a place to move, you know, I say, "Let's just start praying this verse, and let's claim this verse that God will go before you and search out places for you to camp."

Then there's another verse later where God settled Israelites in their homes and He gives us that grace. So that's a verse that we've clung to a lot. 

I know another one that, you know, is kind of our family verse is Jeremiah 29:11. "For I know the plans I have for you, says the Lord, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." It's something to remember. [00:51:08] I look back over my life and some of the stories we've shared today, some of the difficulties and the struggles, and knowing that God really did have my best in mind the whole time. He really does want the best for us. 

So Jeremiah 29, 11 is one that over the years we've just… we've clung to it. It hangs over our mantle. I gave it to Mike, a big framed version of it when we first moved to Washington in 2000. And now it hangs in every house we've moved to since then. It's hung over the mantle and it does even to this day.

Laura Dugger: Well, Mrs. Pence, I thoroughly enjoyed reading your book. If anybody else wants to pick up their own copy or if we just desire to continue learning from you elsewhere after this chat, where would you direct us to go?

Karen Pence: Probably the easiest way to get the book is on Amazon, Barnes & Noble. [00:52:11] It's an easy way. But also in the audio version where I read the book from cover to cover. I also have a Twitter handle @KarenPence on Instagram. I don't post as much these days as I did when I was in office. But I do things on there from time to time. 

One of the things I'm doing now is I just did a book signing with the congressional spouses. I knew that they would relate to this book a lot. I do presentations for pastors’ wives. I'm getting ready next month to speak to the Republican Governors Association to the spouses there. So I do like to get out and talk about the book, especially with the church group.

So you might see something your listeners might see that I'm going to be maybe in their area doing a presentation. But the best way to get the book is probably just on Amazon or Barnes & Noble. [00:53:10] 

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will provide a link in the show notes for today's episode. You may already be aware that we are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so as my final question for you today, Mrs. Pence, what is your savvy sauce?

Karen Pence: Honestly, I would say, Laura, that my savvy sauce is just to relax and take a breath. Trust God. He really does have your best in mind with all the things that we go through in life.

So my savvy sauce would just be to trust Him. He has a calling for your life and He has plans for you. He's given each one of you your own special, unique gifts, your own passions, your own abilities and opportunities. So don't be afraid to step out and trust Him. 

That's what I've found over the years, that if I just open up my hands and let go and let God, she has a very fulfilled life, and He's given me. And He will do the same for you when it's your turn to serve. [00:54:31] 

Laura Dugger: That's so good. You're bringing us back to the beginning of Jonah 2:8. "Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs." I love this conversation, how I got to learn about the ways that God has blessed you with grace upon grace. 

Mrs. Pence, your service to our country and your words penned on these pages have impacted people you may never get the chance to meet. But I want to say thank you on behalf of all of us listening. Thank you for inspiring us to seek God first and thank you for sharing your journey of Him extending that grace upon grace in your life. Thank you so much for being my guest.

Karen Pence: Thank you, Laura. It's been a privilege.

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. [00:55:39] 

This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.

But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.

Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.

Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:56:44] 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started? 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John. 

Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. [00:57:50] I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.