165 Mutually Pleasing Sex in Marriage with Gary Thomas

*This episode contains adult themes and is not intended for young ears*

 

165. Mutually Pleasing Sex in Marriage with Gary Thomas

 

Your lips drop sweetness as the honeycomb, my bride; milk and honey are under your tongue. Song of Songs 4:11 (NIV)

 

Questions We Discuss:

1. Will you tell me more about a few of your take aways from studying Song of Songs

2. What wisdom can you offer to couples who are asking "is this ok?"

3. Will you share ways to get the most out of involving all five senses in married sex?

 

Gary Thomas’ writing and speaking focuses on bringing people closer to Christ and closer to others.   He is the author of 20 books that together have sold over two million copies and have been translated into more than a dozen languages. These books include When to Walk Away: Finding Freedom from Toxic People; Sacred Marriage: What if God Designed Marriage to Make Us Holy More Than to Make Us Happy?, The Sacred Search: What If It’s Not About Who You Marry, but Why?, and the Gold Medallion award winner Authentic Faith.

 

Gary holds a B.A. in English Literature from Western Washington University, an MA degree in systematic theology from Regent College (Vancouver, BC), and an honorary Doctor of Divinity degree from Western Seminary (Portland, OR).

 

He serves on the teaching team (and as Writer in Residence) at Second Baptist Church, Houston—a congregation with six campuses and 70,000 members—and is an adjunct faculty member at Western Seminary in Portland, Oregon and Houston Theological Seminary in Houston, Texas.

 

Gary’s speaking ministry has led him to speak in 49 states and nine different countries, and on numerous national television and radio programs, including multiple appearances on Focus on the Family and Family Life Today. Gary’s interviews on Focus on the Family have been chosen among the “Best of 2013,” “Best of 2014” and “Best of 2017.”

 

Gary enjoys running in his spare time and has completed 14 marathons, including the Boston Marathon three times. He and his wife Lisa have been married for 35 years and they have three adult children and the smartest, cutest, most adorable granddaughter on the planet.

 

Gary is active online through his website (www.garythomas.com), twitter (@garyLthomas) Facebook (www.facebook.com/authorgarythomas) and Instagram (garythomasbooks)

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

Married Sex

 

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:18] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message. 

 

Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at midwestfoodbank.org.

 

Gary Thomas is back as my guest today. Last time, he discussed nine ways to connect intimately with God, and today, we're talking about connecting intimately with our spouse. Gary has just released an awesome book that he co-authored with our previous guest, Debra Fileta. It's entitled Married Sex. 

 

Today, you're going to hear more about sex and marriage in this safe and trusted place where Gary is going to encourage married couples to gratefully enjoy all the marital pleasures God has stored up for them. [00:01:24] 

 

Here's our chat. 

 

Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Gary. 

 

Gary Thomas: Thank you, Laura. So glad to be back. 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, in case anyone missed our previous chat on September 13th, will you just remind us of who you are and what you do? 

 

Gary Thomas: Sure. I'm a husband, a father, rather recent grandfather. I've been a writer for most of my adult life. I'm also on the teaching team at a church in Houston, Texas. 

 

Laura Dugger: What I always appreciate about you, Gary, is you always esteem your family so well and honor Lisa. And that was especially important in one of these newest books that you've written with Debra Fileta, and it's entitled Married Sex. I love how the two of you point out this positive correlation between a healthy emotional connection in marriage and a fulfilling sex life. 

 

But before we jump into all of those details of Married Sex, what have you learned about the importance of the word "cherish"? [00:02:28] 

 

Gary Thomas: Laura, God used that word to reset my view of marriage, my expectations of marriage. The day we got married, most of us promised to love and to cherish until death do us part. And I don't know that I never thought of the word cherish for another 25 years. 

 

Madonna had a song that came out in the 80s that might have brought it to my mind, but I didn't really take it seriously. But the Lord challenged me that there was something there, and I began to explore what it meant and began to practice it. 

 

I'd always called myself to love my wife, even sacrificially, but “cherish” just created an entirely new element. Love focuses me on my obligations, sacrifice, serve, be faithful, persevere, hang in there, but "cherish" focuses me on the beauty and excellence and even wonder of my spouse. And I found it created an entirely different dynamic in marriage. [00:03:26] 

 

So it was a new rubric through which I looked at marriage, a new invitation of how I want to look at my wife and treat my wife for the rest of my days. 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, and as a pastor, you've spent significant time studying the Bible. What do you believe God's gift of sex teaches us about Him? 

 

Gary Thomas: It's amazing to me, Laura, when I really take it seriously what God tells us about sex in His book. For starters, we can just look at the title of the book that is primarily about sex, the Song of Songs. The ancient Near Eastern phrase, something of something elevated whatever was being discussed. 

 

An analogy that most people would have heard is God being called the King of kings. That doesn't mean that God is just the greatest of kings or the strongest of kings. It means that if you were to put all the kings of the universe together, God would be King of those kings. He's different in kind. 

 

So in the Old Testament, now this is pre-Christ, but in the Old Testament when it's describing the Song of Songs, not just the best song or the most wondrous song, the song that is different from every kind, that stands above every other kind of song, is a song of a husband and wife in their intimate sexual relationship within marriage. [00:04:42] 

 

And so God is telling us just with the title of the book, there is no other experience like this. And it shouldn't surprise us that God gives us that title, gives the book that title, when you think about what sex can do. The fact that as God is creator, in one sense, we become cooperating creators in sex. That we can literally create human beings who share our DNA. What sex does to us relationally where we feel connected with somebody, like we'll never feel in any other circumstance. The fact that it makes us feel like we are humans with bodies, we are embodied people, embodied beings who have nerve endings that can fire off in so many different ways. 

 

While sex reminds us of the transcendent God, it also reminds us that we are very much physical people. In that regard, I don't think it's surprising that He gives it such a high praise by calling the book about sex the Song of Songs. [00:05:45] 

 

Laura Dugger: I love how your writing definitely just leads us to worship our creator. And I'm just going to share a little quote of yours where you elaborate on this and say, "God is a giver, and His gift-giving ability and creativity are stupendous." Will you just tell us a few more of your takeaways from studying the Song of Songs? 

 

Gary Thomas: Yeah. Well, I think one of the ones that was so gratifying to see is the very second verse, Laura. The very second verse it's the wife talking. And she says, "Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth, for your love is more delightful than wine." 

 

I think in previous decades, there was a sense, even within the Christian world, but not just the Christian world, I think outside of it, the sex was often seen as for the husband, just to meet his needs or to keep him from stumbling or whatnot. And right out of the gate, the Bible says, No, this is for her pleasure. 

 

When this wife says, "Your love is more delightful than wine," that can go over the heads of a lot of modern wives because a lot of modern wives may not even like wine. [00:06:52] I'm sure many do, but not all. 

 

But if you go back three thousand years and think about a woman living in the desert, what it was like for women, think about how many pleasures she didn't have. She didn't get to wake up to a cup of caramel macchiato. She didn't even have Folgers. Right? Coffee wasn't there yet. She couldn't have dark chocolate in the afternoon. It hadn't been invented yet. I can't imagine my wife's life without dark chocolate. And in the evening, she didn't get to turn on the Real Housewives of Jerusalem to chill out with Netflix. She really only had one pleasure, and that was wine. 

 

And so what she's saying here, "when your love is more delightful than wine", and I should say that word "love" in Hebrew is dod, D-O-D, referring not to romantic love, but physical acts and caresses, she's saying I really have no other pleasure than this. [00:07:46] 

 

Now plenty of wives listening may say, well, you know, frankly, I might prefer a novel or playing an instrument or taking a walk or leading a Bible study. And that's fine. The takeaway though is that God's book on sex begins with stressing the wife's pleasure, that this is for the wife. Sex wasn't created just for the husband. Women are supposed to enjoy it as well. That's what God's design is. 

 

Laura Dugger: And, yes, how you say the first person to be pleased is the wife, and I think you drew out so many interesting principles from Song of Songs. Before we started recording, Gary said a prayer and just was asking for the Lord to make this a time of instruction as well. So as we share these things, that's our hope, instruction as well. And so as we share these things, that's our hope, is that it lands on ears that appreciate and can apply this information. 

 

But from the Bible, I'm going to re-quote that Song of Songs verse that you're talking about where she says, "Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth, for your love is more delightful than wine." [00:08:46] You write in the book, "The kissing may involve his mouth, but not always hers, meaning he's kissing elsewhere. She wants his mouth all over her."

 

I think that's just a little taste of what this book is about, how you and Debra just beautifully weave in scripture and point us to worshiping God and reveal His heart in Married Sex. And you've heard a lot about the wife, but could you give us a little glimpse as well about the turbocharge for the husband?

 

Gary Thomas: Well, and let me stress, Laura, just so people know, this is an explicit book that Debra and I have written, but it's not as explicit as the Song of Songs. You really can't get more explicit than the Song of Songs. And so we just tried to follow the biblical model of celebrating what the Bible itself celebrates. 

 

So while in 1:2 it celebrates the pleasure a wife gets, I think Song of Songs 1:9 really is one of the key statements for the husband when he says, "I liken you my darling to a mare harnessed, to one of the chariots of pharaoh." [00:09:53] 

 

Now, again, that can go over our heads 3,000 years later. But back 3,000 years ago, people knew mares didn't pull the Pharaoh's chariot. The Pharaoh was like a king in the game of chess and battles. You were fighting over the rulers even more than land. If the Pharaoh went down, the battle was over. So the Pharaoh would have chariots pulled by the strongest and fastest horses with the most endurance, and that would be stallions. 

 

But what they discovered is when a stallion is in a mare's presence, she's not there to pull, just to be in proximity. Her presence, her sight, even her smell would literally whip the stallions into a sexual frenzy. And they discovered that sexually excited stallions run faster and farther than stallions that aren't. 

 

It's sort of funny, it's how they literally upped the horsepower 3,000 years before there were combustible engines. And it's really the picture of a man where the wife gets so much pleasure out of sex. The man feels like I can be stronger. I can do more as a husband, as a father, as a worker, as a son of God. [00:10:58] There's something about a fulfilling sex life that sets me up to be more engaged and to just be more involved and succeed in life in general. 

 

Laura Dugger: And when we read Song of Songs, it gives permission and blessing to so many marital acts related to physical intimacy. Often within marriage, couples very much can differ in their preferences even if that act seems to be approved in scripture. An easy one to think of is oral sex. So when couples are navigating the question of, is this okay, what do you challenge the couples to think about as they navigate their varying opinions about what they want to do specifically in the bedroom? [00:11:45] 

 

Gary Thomas: Debra and I both wrote from the perspective of we want to speak total freedom where the Bible speaks freedom. If the Bible doesn't have prohibition, we're very nervous about it. I mean, sometimes there are physical reasons to talk about prohibitions, but we're not raising them to the level of the Bible, you know, thus saith the Lord. And so when there's freedom, we want to speak freedom.

 

But let me also stress, Laura, especially if you're talking about oral sex, there are a thousand things a husband and wife can do in the bedroom. Ultimately, because mutual pleasure is so important, if you can't do one out of a thousand things, you can still have an incredible sexual experience. 

 

What we try to do in the book is remove some of the theological objections to it. There are, apparently, now these are somewhat poetic, but most biblical scholars today would say there is evidence for sure of the husband offering oral sex and the wife very likely offering oral sex to the husband. [00:12:46] 

 

If you're wondering how that is, apples are often an image for the male genitals in that poetry of that age. And so when you look at those kinds of things, it's like it seems like they're describing that. And because we know that God isn't against pleasure or sexual pleasure, He created it, because we know that I don't think anybody would say there's a problem if a husband kisses his wife's neck or ears or breasts. There's not anything particularly dirty or certainly not nasty about kissing lower. We just don't see a biblical or even a natural prohibition to that. 

 

That said, if mutual pleasure is the goal, I don't ever want to ask my spouse to do something that would, maybe because of a background or maybe something else, would feel demeaning or wouldn't be enjoyed or wouldn't lead to pleasure. I do believe there's freedom, but we're not trying to give a lot of shoulds in this book. We're offering invitations. [00:13:48] 

 

And sometimes you want to go to this party and not that party. Debra says in the chapter, and this is why I loved writing the book with a licensed counselor. Debra's worked with so many couples, and she's worked with a lot of women with that. And she says, you know, a lot of times it seems intimidating at first, but as the relationship develops, she says, and then even later, as you yourself get aroused, a lot of times some of those inhibitions start to subside a little bit and you can sort of just wade in. 

 

But I would stress, Laura, that this be done in a spirit of exploration and freedom. Never coercion. Never guilt. Never acting like your spouse is making you feel substandard for not doing one thing. Again, I want to stress, and I think our book mentions that, how many things we can do to enjoy each other sexually. We should not obsess on one particular act if our spouse does or doesn't want to do that. [00:14:44] 

 

Laura Dugger: I love how you're giving a both-and answer because you say the bible speaks a lot to the freedom, and, of course, we're never going to want to push anything that's against our spouse's conscience or agree to anything that's against our conscience. And yet I've heard you teach before as well that there's some work to do to tease out what is also false guilt. So there's a lot of discernment that goes into this. 

 

You've given analogies before about spouses who say, Well, I just want to be more adventurous. Could you elaborate on that? 

 

Gary Thomas: Well, the blog post you're referring to, I said, It doesn't seem to me to be a fair question when so often these quote-unquote "adventurous" things always come at the wife's expense. I mean, we mentioned oral sex, if we're being that explicit. There is a natural consequence of a woman giving oral sex that there isn't for the husband. There just is. That's just the way it goes. Or at least the possibility of a consequence. [00:15:45] 

 

So it's not exactly the same thing. Sometimes husbands wanting their wives to dress a particularly provocative way in public, again, because of the world that we live in it's natural that she might feel a different sense of vulnerability. People are looking at her. 

 

Even things like outdoor sex is an entirely different thing about a woman being vulnerable, in that situation. Even on the beach. I just tell guys there's a difference between getting sand on your body and in your body. I don't want to get too explicit here, but people know exactly what I'm talking about. And so I said, adventurous isn't a fair word because if I were to say, "Hey, let's be adventurous," I'm going to shoot an apple off your head with my bow and arrow. That's adventurous, but you're the one that's at risk, not me.

 

Again, I think the standards are mutual pleasure, making our spouse feel desired. There are times we're going to stretch ourselves. [00:16:44] I think, for both husbands and wives, there are those moments when, as all aspects of marriage, conversation, choosing to go out to different kinds of restaurants, going out for a walk when you might prefer to just sit by the TV. There are times in marriage ask us to stretch ourselves and to maybe consider out of love for our spouse that we'll explore something with our spouse that we wouldn't normally think of on our own. But that should be in a spirit of mutual pleasure, delight, and wanting to give to each other. Never coercion, guilt, or manipulation. 

 

Laura Dugger: Your stance in your writing and your speaking is always so wise. You emphasize both the importance of pleasing the wife, which a lot of times unfortunately can be overlooked. But then in this book you also write a chapter entitled What Gets Him Going. So what insight would you like to provide wives on that topic? 

 

Gary Thomas: I do want listeners to know there's also a chapter What Gets Her Going, where Debra really helps husbands understand what's going on with their wives. [00:17:54] So on the chapter What Gets Him Going, we worked with a lot of men. We had a private Facebook group, we interviewed other couples and whatnot, just trying to help wives understand. 

 

Now we realize that no two men are alike. And I stress in this chapter that you can do great damage to your marriage if you treat your husband like most men like to be treated, if that's not how he likes to be treated. But these are really jumping-off points. These are things that couples can discuss and talk about. 

 

One of the things we found, and I love this, in the private Facebook group, a couple of the wives said, hearing these descriptions of husbands celebrating their wife's beauty, they said, make us want to cry. It's so moving to us. The way that husbands really can be enthralled with their wives' bodies. God designed us that way to delight in our wives. And these husbands were saying, we don't want our wives to look like supermodels. We married them. We appreciate them as they are. [00:18:53] So it was just this understanding of how important sight is to the husband and how much they enjoy it. 

 

But then Debra gives a very helpful section recognizing for a lot of women it's difficult to be seen. It's difficult to be naked and unashamed. And so conversations they can have, the healing that has to go on and whatnot. But I do think a lot of women will find that it's just hard for them to believe that their husbands are so enthralled with their beauty because they compare themselves to other women. 

 

But, wives, I just want you to know if your husband is being mentally faithful and regularly having sex with you, oxytocin is being released in his brain. Oxytocin is called the cuddle chemical. It creates feelings of bonding, but it also, when a husband is climaxing, literally makes the person he's with look more attractive and other women less attractive in comparison. [00:19:49] 

 

This is what I just love about God's design of sexuality, that marital sex is literally training the husband to find his wife to be the most beautiful woman in the world. The wife gets to experience being the most beautiful woman in that world. I want to say, wives, just embrace it, accept it, believe it. Your husband isn't lying. He really does enjoy that. 

 

But then we also talk about this for husbands, what gets him going, that for men, quantity is often an issue. Now we know they're... these statistics are so hard to come by. I've heard anywhere from probably around 20% of the higher libido wives, maybe sometimes up to 30%. But that still means that it's probably more likely the husbands tend to be the higher drive spouse. 

 

There are some mechanical reasons for that. Men have about two and a half times the space in the hypothalamus devoted to sexual interest. [00:20:50] And so you can have great sexual experiences once a month. But for men, what I try to say quantity is a part of quality. Now that doesn't mean that you make it a heavy duty or obligation, but you recognize what are the things that keep us from being intimate, perhaps as more often than we like. 

 

There's not any number I'm ever telling couples to reach. What I want is that both couples feel like they are desired and wanted and enjoyed, that it's a blessing and not a burden on them. Because of that, that it matters, there are times when a wife just can't get in the mood and shouldn't. Maybe she's not feeling well. Maybe she's just legitimately tired. Maybe she's not there. And so then we give some very practical… there's some very wise wives that we talked with. I call them turndowns that turn your husband on. How do you legitimately say, "I just can't get there, but you know what? This is actually a prelude to what will happen next time. It might be tomorrow. It might be later in the day." [00:21:53] 

 

But you're always telling your husband, "I'm looking forward to this. We can't right now, but how do you do that in a way that it actually becomes not a point of bitterness and frustration, but invitation and anticipation? There's an art to that, but it's a good art to learn. 

 

And then we talk about the power of your enjoyment, speaking to the wives. If a husband is healthy, he gets more pleasure out of his wife's pleasure than his own. Often women think I want to give to my husband, I want to meet his needs. And I want to say well good, but take a step back and say one of the best ways you can give to your husband is to learn how to receive, to really enjoy it. That is actually exciting for him. So it's not selfish when you teach him how to please you. 

 

It's not wrong to say, "That's not working for me, Honey. That's uncomfortable. I need you to stop." You should speak up. You should help him help you, to quote a famous movie. And that's a gift to your husband. There should be no guilt. That's a good thing to do. And it actually even while it serves you, it serves your husband. [00:23:02] 

 

In the chapter What Gets Her Going, Debra is very explicit about guys, how they can massage and caress their wives’ genitals. We go in the chapter What Gets Him Going, we do the same thing with the man's penis. What does it mean? What do guys often enjoy? Again, not so much the answers as questions. You can talk over with your husband: if this is going to be a lifelong relationship, how do we make it the best that it can be for both the wife and the husband? 

 

Laura Dugger: That is so fascinating, Gary, and I think it can provide this opportunity for couples to talk with one another. Hopefully, if they're listening to this podcast together, they listen separate and are coming together tonight, they can ask one another, Is this true for you? Is this what you experienced? 

 

I think for a lot of women, body image is such a barrier to enjoying sexual intimacy. It's very helpful to hear from an objective third party hearing you as a man say, maybe where women are looking and only seeing their flaws, men truly have told you they do not see her body that way. [00:24:16] 

 

Gary Thomas: If they would just read those quotes, how husbands are celebrating, they're saying, I know she thinks her legs are too short or she thinks she's gained too much after kids or something. I know this is considered controversial, Laura. I don't know why it is. Men do. It's not always, but we do tend to be more visual. There's a reason. There's a whole chain of Victoria's Secrets and you don't see Victor's secrets. That store is not going to make it. 

 

That doesn't mean women aren't attracted to men physically, but it does mean that there just tends to be an excitement in the male brain. And I want wives to receive that feeling of being cherished, not as an obligation, but really just as what is it like to be fully cherished and adored and celebrated like that? 

 

If they can go through some of the steps that Debra mentions and receive it as a gift, not as a heavy obligation. And it can take years. I like what one wife said when she said, "You know what? I was so body negative." She goes, "I can't say that I'm body positive now, but I'm body neutral." [00:25:23] And that's a start, and it's good to get going. 

 

Then what I would say to wives on this, because we've just talked about how to please the husband, and I said one of the things is that your pleasure is so important to him and so thrilling to him and also important to you, that I would say, particularly younger wives, every woman is different, every woman's brain, every woman's body. 

 

So we often tell couples, if you will just take your time, and I would say to the wives, it's a good and holy thing, it's a gift to your husband to sort of let him learn what pleases you. You can even guide his hand. You can tell him. Don't expect him to guess. He can't know because there's no other woman like you. 

 

But if you realize, okay, he gets pleasure out of my pleasure, helping him to pleasure you, it's not selfish. It's a gift. So take the time to do that. [00:26:18] What we really want to do in this book is just help couples to slow down, to cherish the moment, to not just focus on the point of orgasm, but to realize all of the road to get there can be sometimes even better than that finish. And just to take the time to relish the moment the way that God designed us to do. 

 

Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. 

 

[00:26:44] <music>

 

Sponsor: This sponsorship message is unique because an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Midwest Food Bank works to alleviate hunger and poverty throughout the world by gathering food donations and distributing them to nonprofit agencies and disaster sites. 

 

Over $30 million worth of food is distributed to over 2,000 nonprofit organizations each month, over 30% of which was produce or protein. In 2020, over 186,000 family food boxes were distributed to disaster victims. Their volunteers are fundamental to the success of their organization. 

 

They collect, sort, pack, and distribute food and disaster relief donations and remind us every day that Midwest Food Bank's mission could not be achieved without them. Thanks to the generosity of donors, the valuable work of volunteers, and most importantly, the blessings of God, Midwest Food Bank shares the blessings world worldwide. More than $360 million worth of food was distributed this past year. This is done from their 10 United States and two international locations. 

 

To learn more about Midwest Food Bank, to make a donation, or to see what volunteer opportunities are available, please visit them at midwestfoodbank.org. 

 

[00:28:12] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: You discussed in one of your chapters about the five senses in Married Sex. So will you share some more ways to get the most out of involving all five senses? 

 

Gary Thomas: I'd say that was one of her favorite chapters when we stumbled on that. And here's what I love. Again, in this book that God inspired, the Song of Songs, every sense, sight, sound, smell, taste, touch is celebrated as having erotic potential, the way that God designed our bodies. And if couples will just think, how can sound really impact the experience we have in the bedroom? It's amazing how exciting lifelong monogamy can be, how different it can feel with the same person when you just emphasize different senses. 

 

Sound is a big thing. There's a lot of neuroscience behind the power of listening to music while you have sex. Some couples know that and they do that all the time. Others might not. [00:29:13] 

 

We talk to wives about how you can use your voice as an instrument. It's an entirely different experience. For instance, if a wife is laughing or enjoying her time and then she leans over and just whispers something into her husband's ear, that's sort of a brain hack where if somebody's talking in a normal tone and then they whisper right in your ear, your brain just wakes up. What did she say? How do I catch that? 

 

And if you just think of the normal sounds of a couple being intimate, whether the wife is laughing, whether the wife is moaning, whether the wife is silent with intensity, those are all very different kinds of sexual experience that the wife's voice is creating with sound. 

 

We talked about the importance of sight to husbands and also to wives, things that couples can do just to do that. Some people talk about mirrors, ironically, sometimes taking away the sight. One wife said when I was blindfolded and I didn't know what my husband was going to do next, she goes, It created this heightened sense of expectation for me. [00:30:13] 

 

Smell was a big thing. In the Song of Songs, it's so celebrated. If there's one thing that's true about lovers, they love how each other smell. I mean, throughout that pleasing is the fragrance of your perfume, Song of Songs 1:3, and several passages where they talk about it. 

 

Smell elicits memories. This is what's fascinated me. I knew that smell... for whatever reason, our brain is connected to memories, but here's how some very creative wives have learned to use that. One wife knows what perfume she wore on their wedding night, the first time they made love, and every anniversary, she puts a few dabs of that on and it immediately brings them back to that special time when they were first intimate. 

 

Another woman said that we had this great time on vacation where she wore the special lotion. She said it was the best sex we've ever had and every now and then she'll just put on that same lotion and it reminds both her and her husband what it was like in that moment. 

 

But this is where, Laura, we're all different and every woman is different because one woman told us her favorite scent is unscented. [00:31:17] Again, that's why this is a book of questions instead of answers. You have to go through it. 

 

Let me just say another difference between husbands and wives that's really fascinating. A woman's skin can be 10 times more sensitive than a man's. It explains why women tend to enjoy foreplay more because it just feels different to them. It feels more intense. It also explains why husbands often feel like their wives' touches are maybe a little too light, and wives may feel sometimes their husbands' touch can be a little too firm. 

 

Well, if you understand the way our brains operate, then it's something that we can do to prepare and just to be aware of as we try to integrate all five senses to just create entirely new experiences by focusing on one particular sense.

 

Laura Dugger: There is one way to incorporate all five senses, could you elaborate on that as well? 

 

Gary Thomas: Well, I think this is when we're really talking about healthy relationships, Laura. I've worked with couples that have had affairs and they've admitted in their words, the sex was pretty good. [00:32:21] But by that, they meant it was athletic. They both got their release. They felt satisfied physically, but they said there wasn't that soul connection. 

 

But there is one sensual act in marriage that really does unlock all five senses, and that's a passionate kiss with your eyes wide open. You see each other up close. You can smell each other. Obviously, you're tasting each other. You feel each other with your lips. And if you're doing it right, you can hear each other. And it is that experience where you can really connect. It's not just physical pleasure, not that I'm downplaying physical pleasure, but it's more than that. There's this soul connection. 

 

I often tell couples, don't just pay attention to how often you have sex. Pay attention to the kind of sex you're having. I mean, it's fine to have laughter sex. It's time to have athletic sex. Sometimes it's time to just have physically passionate sex. You both just want to enjoy that experience. But there should be moments, I think, in a healthy marriage for that sensual, soul-connecting kind of sex. [00:33:26] And I think kissing with your eyes open is a big part of that. 

 

Laura Dugger: Will you also define what you mean by sacred simmering and then share some examples of ways we can actually incorporate this into our marriage? 

 

Gary Thomas: Yeah. This is real helpful. Simmering is a topic that sexual therapists have been talking about, particularly last ten years or so. And what I love is how the bible predates so much worldly wisdom. You go back 3,000 years ago, and there are literally examples of simmering in the Song of Songs. 

 

Let me explain what simmering is. What therapists understand is that it's difficult at times to go from ice cold to red hot. That's a big stretch. Even if you think you might be having sex later in the day, by the time you get there, you're just tired or you're busy, or whatever and you just can't get there. And so the notion is if you can simmer, then you're much closer to boiling. 

 

So if you know you're going to have sex that day, what are some things you can do to simmer? Now the Song of Songs talks about literally the wife thinking, imagining her husband's body from the top of his head and his hair to his arms like rods of iron to his legs. [00:34:39] 

 

And then the husband is mentally celebrating the most beautiful parts of his wife's body. He says the king is held captive by her tresses, referring to her hair. He says her eyes overwhelm me. So he's thinking about the sexually desirable parts. 

 

So simmering is getting your mind in gear. I guess you could call it fore foreplay. It's not foreplay. It's the fore foreplay before you get into foreplay so that you even want to enter the realm of foreplay. So wife could do that while she's fixing macaroni and cheese and heating that up for her kids. They have no idea that she might be mentally heating herself up in an entirely different way to enjoy her husband later that night. 

 

One wife plays this playlist. We talked about using music, and they love to make love to music. And she said, "There are literally songs that I have orgasm to. And when I'm listening to that, the kids don't have a clue what's going on, but it just helps me get in the mood and excited about what's going to happen." [00:35:40] 

 

We talk about a couple in the book where sex had become just too sporadic. Both of them were frustrated with it. And the therapist recommended scheduled sex, and the wife at first thought, "That's the last thing I want to do. I don't want it to sound like this obligation and put it on the list." 

 

But then the therapist said, Well, let's just talk about how you set up your day. And it was basically a day of simmering, where take a longer shower, use a particular kind of soap, make it just kind of essential where you're just thinking about what would happen. And then when you're getting dressed, the clothes you wear and what you wear under your clothes, think about what makes you feel desirable, what makes you feel essential, what gets you in the mood, texts that you might send to your husband or that you might ask him to send to you. 

 

In her case, she really wanted a wide berth between being a mom and being her husband's lover. So he realized she wanted him to bring dinner home Friday night without asking her. She didn't wanna have to make a mother's decision. [00:36:41] And then when they got back from their date, he was the one who paid the babysitter, he was the one that got the kids in bed while she went off into the master bathroom and took a bath. Suddenly, she said, "This is the best thing we ever did for our sex lives." Because she realized a day of simmering makes me so excited for that moment when my husband finally walks into the bedroom and I'm all ready and it's like, here we go. 

 

So just recognize, for some, we have to simmer before we're even willing to consider foreplay. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you. It doesn't mean you don't desire your spouse. It just means the way our brains work. I've heard it said that multitasking is a myth. Our brains don't multitask. It goes very quickly from one task to the next, but it's not actually doing two tasks at once. Our brains can't do that. Which means we shouldn't be surprised. Sometimes we have to simmer if we've had a day of caring for others or working or studying or whatever we do to really get in the mood for physical intimacy. [00:37:46] 

 

Laura Dugger: I think one more simple way for wives that they would always have access to is mentally just having thoughts of gratitude that they're intentional about too, think about the character or things that they love or admire about their husband. I think that is another example of simmering. 

 

Gary Thomas: Debra talks about that where a lot of times for women because often with women, sexual interest is in the neocortex. Men can often be more in the limbic. The limbic is the sight and sound. Neocortex is the quality of the relationship. And so thinking about how your husband is kind or he treats the kids. 

 

One wife said, to be honest, for me, simmering — she's a musician — "When I hear my husband play the piano, that gets me going as much as anything." So it's realizing simmering is based on what gets you going. Not what gets your husband going, not what gets other women going, but really what works for you. The point is the Bible says that's a good thing to do. It's a holy and sacred thing to do. [00:38:47] 

 

Laura Dugger: Thanks to our friend Joy, thesavvysauce.com has been completely updated. And if you follow The Savvy Sauce on social media, you're already aware that we launched a new tab on January 1 titled articles. I hope you check out these new Savvy Snacks, which are articles full of quick tips for intentional living. Check out these articles today or join our email list to have them directly delivered to your inbox. Enjoy. 

 

Gary, will you elaborate on the dangers of only relying on spontaneity for sexual encounters in marriage? There's a place for it, but I think we have to get to the point of not just what do I want, but what does our relationship need? And look at it as a relational issue, not just a personal issue. What makes us feel both cherished? What makes us feel desired? What gives energy and soul connection to the marriage? [00:39:46] 

 

I just had a conversation with a friend. It's been months since we've gotten together, and he said, "Well, let's get together." I said, "You know what? If you can call my assistant." I said, we say that, but if it's not on the calendar, it might be another two months before it happens. That's a sign of valuing the relationship, not that it's not important. 

 

It's just recognizing that in the world we live in, sometimes we do have to just get it on the calendar. What I found, Laura, what that can do is it can just really remove some of the frustration and the uncertainty. So you're not always, is tonight the night? Sometimes it's just kinda helpful to know, No, it's not. I don't have to simmer. I don't have to get my mind there. But tomorrow or the next day after that or whatnot. It can just be helpful. But, again, this is a couple thing. Figure it out as a couple. The point is to make it a delight and not a burden. 

 

Laura Dugger: Yes. I echo that, that there is absolutely a place and a time for spontaneity that's wonderful for the marital relationship. [00:40:44] And yet I've heard you interviewed before when you said, you know, looking back, you've noticed that that's where a lot of hurt came up in couples was when they only were being spontaneously sexually active or making these sexual advances just in the moment. And a lot of hurt would come up whether that's rejection or not feeling planned for. And you just recommended it's better when possible to be proactively communicating. 

 

Gary Thomas: One couple... Let me just give an example. And I don't think people should use their conclusion as the model for them. But he was a very high-drive spouse, and she was not as much. So he would like to have sex every day, and she was like, "There's just no way I can get to that." 

 

And they finally settled on, and this might not work for the listeners, but she said, "Okay." And they were a younger couple. "How about every other day?" For her, it just meant that the next day she doesn't have to think about it. It's not there. It's going to happen every other day. [00:41:45] 

 

Again, that might still be too much for some wives. But what it did, Laura, is it took it off the table every other day where it wasn't a point of contention. He knew it. And now what had been frustrating or she's thinking, can I never give him enough, and he's thinking I can never get enough, they really found that point where they felt like agreeing ahead of time, "Okay, this is reasonable, we both think this is good," and so now that tension was gone.

 

Laura Dugger: I love that. We've written an article on The Savvy Sauce website about in marriage making the covert overt, so making these secret or internal expectations, making them obvious to one another, and you can really sidestep regrets and hurts that way. Again, your book is just an incredible and practical way for people to read that or listen to this interview and have some conversation with their spouse to follow-up. 

 

Gary, what encouragement do you also have to share with married couples as it relates to the difference between our genital prime and our sexual prime? [00:42:52] 

 

Gary Thomas: Dr. David Schnarch was a renowned sex therapist. He passed away within the last year. But he's done a lot of really helpful research and study, and we got that from him. The point is genital prime is when you can have the most active sex physically, but sexual prime is in the relationship when it's likely to be most satisfying. And that can be sometimes 20 years into the relationship.

 

Because sex isn't just physical. There are physical components where you have to learn control, you have to learn each other's bodies, you have to learn your own body for things to work. But there's this sense where the whole relationship, spiritually, emotionally, and learning each other physically takes time to where it can take 15 to 20 years for a couple to really reach the point where they both feel like, we've got this down. And monogamy is what they choose because it's what they delight more than anything, because they know, boy, we've got this figured out, and we can't imagine it being any better. [00:43:56] 

 

Now the road to there, Laura, that we have to be aware of is that he also says there's a difference between the word he uses, arousal, and satisfaction response. And what he means by that, arousal response is what gets you aroused, and satisfaction is what ultimately satisfies you and helps you to orgasm. Those response thresholds change over time. Your body will change, the relationship will change, the experience will change. 

 

So not to freak out, that what worked for you in your 20s or 30s may not work in your 40s or 50s. It doesn't mean that the two of you are waning sexually. It just means what Dr. David Schnarch says, you've gotta be a little more creative. That's why you talk about the five senses or you talk about the difference that each position means and how to be more creative and intentional so that you can create unique experiences. [00:44:52] 

 

We should anticipate that, not to freak out about it. But just say, okay, this is what it is to be in a normal marriage, this is what happens with long-term sexual relationships. So it doesn't mean I don't desire my spouse, my spouse doesn't desire me, it just means this threshold has been met and we've got to change things up a little bit to go forward. 

 

Laura Dugger: I just want to elaborate on that. That's so important what you're saying because over time and throughout different seasons, maybe after childbearing, women may experience vaginismus or different kinds of pain during intercourse, and it's very common at some point throughout marriage for men to experience erectile dysfunction or premature ejaculation. 

 

And sometimes these are more isolated experiences. But if it's going on for a really long time, that's okay to seek treatment. We've done a lot of episodes related to all of those topics to help direct people to know where to go to find help. But I think you're right. Expect difficulties through... some of the most challenging times are pregnancy and childbirth. Parenting teens will change a sex life often for a couple. And then medical issues or aging. And so there's always opportunities to seek out help, but those are sometimes that maybe especially in need of support. [00:46:16] 

 

Giving and receiving in sex is important for both spouses. So how would you encourage both genders in seeing sex through the lens of both giving and receiving? 

 

Gary Thomas: Let me answer that by picking up a little bit on what you said before you asked the question, about how after birth or as a couple ages or whatnot, that the threshold changes. I think what trips up many couples is that the goal of sex is often seen as orgasm. 

 

Now, the orgasm gap needs to come down. That's the percentage of time that the husband would have an orgasm and the wife would or whatnot. But we have to understand that there are a lot of very enjoyable things that husbands and wives can do together that don't involve necessarily leading one or both of them to that. And the same thing as far as penetrative intimacy, penetrative sex. [00:47:16] 

 

In some of those situations where taking that off the table, but say we can still enjoy each other, we can still touch each other, we can still make each other feel good. But there's nowhere in the bible that says something is missing if you can't get there. 

 

Now let me just say, eventually, I want a couple to consummate a marriage, and I think generally for healthy sexuality that should be a part of it, but not always insisting on it because it's what will most serve your spouse at this time. Maybe the wife feels like I just can't get there, but, honey, if you're here and you want to kiss me and touch me and I'm going to enjoy it and we can be there. 

 

But recognizing what I said before, that she may need to learn how to receive, and again, for her own pleasure, but also for her husband's. We had some husbands say that, you know what, I feel like Superman when I know I can please my wife. So it really is a good gift when you can help your husband learn how to please you. 

 

So there's that whole chapter that we wrote called What Gets You Going. [00:48:16] We got the chapter What Gets Him Going, What Gets Her Going, and the chapter What Gets You Going. Because the reality is because your brain is so different and especially for women, and a lot of women laughed about this when they were in the book saying, you know what, what pleases me on Wednesday may not work on Friday and that may not work on Saturday morning. 

 

So no husband can guess all of that, and so just helping him, realizing that it's far more common for the guy to have his climax and that not to have to take as much work. So really trying to overcome that gap that often happens because it tend not always, but it tends to be easier for the husband slowing down and figuring out, well, maybe it's better for the wife to please first, just whatever works best for the couple. 

 

Laura Dugger: That's so good and such practical wisdom. Is there anything else related to Married Sex that we haven't covered yet that you would like to mention? [00:49:13] 

 

Gary Thomas: What I'd really like to see this book do, Laura, it's not just what happens in the bedroom. It's what happens after you leave the bedroom. I tell this silly story in some of my seminars about the work that Lisa and I had to do one time to be intimate on a cruise. We were with our daughters. They were a lot younger. They had key cards. We couldn't lock them out. They couldn't be alone on their own. And we finally figured out a way for them to be safely away from the room where we know they couldn't be interrupted. It took us days to figure out how to do that, but we had a great time. 

 

But I couldn't tell you what happened in the room. And if I did, I wouldn't mention it now. But here's what I remember, and this is what I want wives to hear. I remember dinner that night. We're with our kids, happy to be with them now because they're not keeping us from anything. So we're thrilled to be a family. But just looking across the table at each other with that wonderful smile, we know, they don't know. Nobody around us knows. We really enjoyed each other. We had a good time. [00:50:12] 

 

It's that just special, private, sacred look that a husband and wife have. Some have said, you know, maybe even at church on Sunday morning when they look at each other and they kinda just remember Saturday night, and they say, man, nobody would believe it or nobody knew, but we do. I just love the intimacy that memories of healthy, mutual, pleasurable sex can create. That it's something nobody else will ever know, see, or hear of. It's shared. It creates this bonding experience. 

 

We want to create more of those knowing smiles between husbands and wives, whether it's at a family gathering, whether it's at a hotel, at a restaurant, or even at church, where it continues to be this wonderful, soul-connecting, marriage-building source. Even after the pleasure is gone, the memories can be just as powerful to serve the marriage. 

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. I love that, Gary. [00:51:13] You articulate that so well. And if anyone wants to follow-up and learn more from you, where would you direct them? 

 

Gary Thomas: Well, if they want more information about the book, the website for the book is marriedsex.us. Marriedsex.us. Now people, understandable reasons, don't like to type in words like that. So you can go to my website, which is GaryThomas.com, and that will link you to wherever I am on social media. The book is available, you know, on Christian books and Barnes and Noble and Amazon and all of that where they could order the book directly. 

 

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will make some show notes with episode links available for everyone. And you know we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question for you today, Gary, what is your savvy sauce? 

 

Gary Thomas: I think one of the most practical savvy sauces that you could do for a marriage, this is another wife who mentioned this, so I'm stealing this, but a great opportunity. [00:52:18] We had a couple one time that mentioned before they got kids, they could go a long-time enjoying sex. And then they had four kids, and it became all of these quickies. And the wife said, I liked it because it gave release, physical release, but there was something different. It's like eating fast food. Fast food means you're not hungry, but it's not really nurturing. 

 

And they realized they had to step back and have these moments that they savor. There's a place for quickies. But for really connecting and defeating their marriage, they needed those times to savor. And so this was considered really one of the best opportunities where just to get away, particularly if you have kids. 

 

You rent a hotel room and the wife shows up first at about 3 p.m. and she gets to do whatever she wants to do. She can sit on the balcony if there is one and read a novel, she can catch up on Netflix, she can take a bath. The husband comes in and they go out to eat before or after they make love, they enjoy the time. [00:53:16] 

 

And then afterwards, the husband goes home and the wife gets to stay in the hotel room to have a great night of sleep. Now she can get up early if she wants to be there before the kids wake up or she can just decide that she's going to sleep in. You make it a whole day thing where the wife feels like this was an oasis. We have a chapter called [inaudible 00:53:34] sex where life can be frustrating, it can be difficult, it can be hurtful, it can be scary. And good sexual experiences can be like an oasis in a desert. You still gotta walk through the desert, but you're refreshed, you're renewed, so you can go out with new energy and new results to really make the most of your life. 

 

So I would just encourage the listeners of Savvy Sauces, create some of those moments. Maybe that doesn't work for you, maybe that doesn't sound inviting for you, but recognize there's a place where how can sex become the oasis that God intended it to be. [00:54:11] It won't remove all of our problems. It won't solve most of our problems, but it'll help us reconnect so that we can face our problems together. 

 

Laura Dugger: Goodness. Gary, it is always just such a privilege to hear your teaching. You are so clear, and you're such a kind communicator, both in your speaking and your writing. So thank you for devoting time to write this important book, and thank you for being my guest today. 

 

Gary Thomas: Thank you, Laura, for having me. 

 

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. [00:55:17] We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:56:19] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:57:21] 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.