155 Sex in Marriage and Its Positive Effects with Francie Winslow, Part 1

155. Sex in Marriage and Its Positive Effects with Francie Winslow, Part 1

 

**Transcription Below**

 

"Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others." Philippians 2:3+4 NIV

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. What has the Lord taught you about sexual intimacy within marriage?

2. How does sex that happens in the secret place inside our marriage overflow to the rest of our lives, benefitting each arena?

3. What are a few positive messages to replace the negative lies we've previously bought into about sex?

 

 

Francie Winslow says Jesus captured her heart at a young age, and she has been on an adventure following Him since then, fueled by a love for His word and His presence.

 

As a young woman Francie served in Mother Theresa’s home for the dying in Kolkata, sat in brothels with girls trapped in the sex trade of Chang Mai, slept in the bush of Namibia to reach tribal people and orphans with the Gospel of Jesus, visited the homes of the poor in the Dominican Republic, and helped with the rebuilding and development of a village in Sri Lanka after the 2004 tsunami.

 

For the past few years, Francie has been focused on writing and speaking about God’s good gift of intimacy in marriage.  She’s been featured on Christianity Today’s blog and Moody Radio, The Don’t Mom Alone Podcast, and Java with Juli, and several others as she shares about the power of sex in marriage. Most recently, she’s launched a podcast called Heaven in Your Home where she talks all about sex, marriage and the mission of God.

 

In it all, Francie is passionate about inviting others to experience God’s tangible love that has the ability to transform every area of life.   

 

Francie has a BA in Political Science and a Masters degree in Evangelism and Leadership from Wheaton College in Wheaton, Il.  She currently lives in the suburbs of Washington DC with her six kids and husband. 

 

Francie Winslow's Website

Francie Winslow's Podcast

 

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

[00:00:00] <Music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. 

 

[00:00:16] <Music>

 

Laura Dugger: Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home with over 600 apartment units available in central Illinois. Visit them today at midwestshelters.com or visit them on Facebook.

 

Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.

 

Hey, everyone. I'm so excited to share my guest with you today. Francie Winslow has so much to share as it relates to God's vision for sex. She skillfully articulates the benefits of coming together, and she teaches us how the physical act represents a greater spiritual truth. She's going to share how the secret place in our home ripples out to impact our relationships, families, and communities at large. Here's our chat.

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Francie.

 

Francie Winslow: Thank you. It's such a blessing to be with you today.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:01:26] I'm so excited to chat with you. But first, will you just tell us about who you are and what you do? 

 

Francie Winslow: Absolutely. You know, we were actually just talking before you hit record about the fact that I am not a therapist, I'm not a counselor. My heart is really to be an intimacy evangelist because I have encountered intimacy with God and I've realized the power of intimacy within a marriage under His good design and His good plan, and I've realized that both are just precious gifts. One is for this lifetime on earth and one is for eternity, in addition to this lifetime. Both are just incredible gifts worth talking about, worth exploring, worth digging into. So that is my heart. 

 

On top of that, I am a mom of six. So my husband and I have six kiddos here that we're raising in Northern Virginia, just outside of DC. In my extra windows of time, I just find myself overflowing with a passion to communicate God's heart for intimacy, both with Him and within marriage. An integrated view of our bodies and theology behind our bodies and our sexuality has just kind of come as an overflow of what God has been speaking to me and teaching me over the years. So this is kind of what our life looks like. We do some podcasting and some writing, and mostly just a lot of loving my family and normal things and normal life.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:02:46] I love getting that real-time snapshot. But if you take us back a little while, how did you come to know Jesus and surrender your life to Him?

 

Francie Winslow: You know, I think it was the kindness of God. He revealed His love to me when I was a really little girl. I was raised in a Christian family and we had just kind of a small-town community that I was blessed enough to be raised in. But even more than going to church all the time, it was how He was meeting me with His love in the little small moments of my day, in my bedroom, playing with my toys. I would just sense that God loves me a lot, and it caused me to just continue to open my heart to Him and continue to seek Him.

 

I ended up being very moved by pictures and videos I saw of the poor when I was a really little girl, and I told my mom, "I got to be a missionary. Who's going to go to them?" So I got the opportunity to see God's work, not only in my heart, but I started traveling all over the world on mission trips, starting when I was about eighth grade. 

 

And it changed my life so much because I realized that God is not only real in my little bedroom, but He was moving all over the world in powerful ways. And just kind of set the tone for my heart to hunger for Him, for not only myself and knowing that He loves me, but that He is on a worldwide mission to restore and renew all of His creation, and that He's invited me to be a small part of it.

 

So it's kind of this intimacy worked out from the secret place and rippling out into a vision for what He wants to do on the earth to bring it all back to Him. So it's been a journey many, many years. But I've realized that the more I love Him and the more love I receive from Him and the more I want Him and the more He gives of Himself. And it's this incredible love exchange that's just kept getting sweeter over time.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:04:30] What is He currently teaching you about theology of our bodies? How did you even develop your own personal theology on that topic?

 

Francie Winslow: Well, you know, it goes back a bit because the theology of our bodies is very... it sounds kind of lofty and kind of ivory tower, but it really is about the fact that Jesus came in a body and He lived in a body because He wanted to show us the way to be fully human and what it is to be in communion with God and with each other right here, right now in very tangible ways. 

 

What that looked like for me was getting married really young. So I got married when I was about 20. I was at Wheaton College and met my husband and we got married young and ended up going on a mission field for a little while. 

 

But during those really young years, the only thing I had to work with was the idea of don't do it, don't do it, don't do it. And while that worked for me in high school and I realized boundaries are good and they're for my good, I didn't have a theology of sexuality or a theology of my body or theology of sex to apply to a godly marriage. So it was a real big jump for me to go from "don't do it, don't do it" to "you can do it", and how do I switch my thinking on that?

 

The journey that drew me into was one of inner healing and one of understanding the shame that I had been carrying in my body and that God wanted to meet me there and that my body and things going on with my body, including my gender and my sexuality, were not unrelated to my spiritual life, if that makes sense.

 

I think for too long I had been kind of like, Your spiritual life is all over here, and then sex or the body or gender is a whole nother conversation that we don't really need to get into. And God was beginning to reintegrate them in our early years of marriage, just renewing my thinking and reclaiming that territory with really His rewriting of the narrative that He made sex, He made it good, He made it for our good, that it relates to the bigger gospel story.

 

But it began our first year of marriage because it really forced my hand. It brought to the surface we have to talk about this because I can't keep moving forward with this separated way of living and thinking, that, you know, God is over here and all the other stuff is kind of in a different compartment.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:06:42] In that journey,—I'm just thinking of the newlywed who is listening right now—was this something that started just you and God for that first year, or were you also communicating with your husband as you journeyed to this inner healing?

 

Francie Winslow: Yeah, it was both. It definitely started with me. I remember specifically sitting on the apartment floor, I had multiple Bible translations out in front of me just searching God's word: how do I love this man? "Oh, Lord, here I am. How do I love this man? You know, we're so different."

 

You have all of the wish of good feelings, all that dopamine when you're dating, and then you get married and you realize that it's not as easy as it looked in engagement. Issues come up and wounds come up and shame comes up or barriers come up. And we really realized that we had to learn how to fight for each other rather than fighting each other.

 

For me, it started with this prayer of "how do I love this man"? And God led me to Philippians 2, which I actually have opened right in front of me at the moment. Philippians 2 where Paul's talking to the church: "If any of you want to be like-minded or have the same love of one accord and one mind, let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in loneliness of mind, let you esteem others better than himself and look out for each other's interest, not only for your own." 

 

What God was really showing me was that I long for that oneness of mind, that oneness of heart, that unity. So how do I do it? So it started this conversation of us really trying to honor each other's needs before our own. And I knew that sex was a big need for him, and I was still trying to wrap my mind around it, but it caused me to be willing to be more available and to say yes more often, because I knew that that was a place that was a felt need for him. 

 

What I learned later is that sex is not a man's need and a woman's duty at all, although that was probably informing me at some level back then. What I learned by saying yes to God's design and finding healing is that sex in a marriage is a gift that draws us into deeper intimacy, deeper revelation of God, the God story written on our bodies, and the gospel story written on marriage and also propels us into greater fruitfulness.

 

But the beginning stages were definitely me seeking God. How do I love this man? Realizing that one key is right there in Philippians 2, understanding what humble love looks like, and then having those conversations of doing that together. That's the ideal.

 

[00:09:04] We talk a lot about our pink inner healing couch because the first year of our marriage, we had very wise pastors who said, "It looks like you guys might need some inner healing because Jesus came to heal our bodies, but He also came to heal our hearts." 

 

We all have disordered affections and places where we're expecting things from other people that cannot be provided except through God. So we had to figure out what lies are we believing and where were we placing expectations on each other that we should really be looking to God to fill? And where did maybe family of origin things start to hinder our connection and keep us from connecting more intimately and more honestly?

 

And we would sit on that couch when one of us would get shut down or one of us would get hurt, and we would just invite the Holy Spirit and say, "Holy Spirit, we are so messed up. We're hurting each other. Will you help us? Will you come into this moment and will you heal us? Will you show us what lies we're believing or where we have become disconnected from you or from each other?"

 

And through one or two honest prayers, God would bring something to mind and make it more clear how we could take a next step towards oneness and a next step towards healing. 

 

And then where that Philippians 2 passage comes in, it was like we were honoring each other in the living room, on the couch, seeing God, and then God was like, "Now come and be one heart, one mind, one body in the bedroom." And it was almost like He was healing us in our hearts, and then He was healing us in our bodies by reframing sex for us. That it's not this fleshy man's need; it is a place for marital unity and intimacy and oneness that can solidify in the physical what we just did in a spiritual on the couch. 

 

And that set the tone for our first year of marriage, which I look back and think, "What a grace! What a supernatural grace!" Because in our brokenness, we very easily were heading towards a lot of wounding, but God intervened and He taught us a way of leaning into Him and leaning into each other. 

 

That produced amazing fruit. And what the fruit was, was the more sex we had, the more prayer we did, the more one we felt, the more grace we had, the more unity we had, the more joy and lightheartedness we had. And then we were also propelled into being able to love other people outside of our home better because we were loving each other better at home.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:11:14] That is so power-packed with so many truths. Just one more follow-up. As it relates to the theology of body, how do you believe our bodies speak and communicate even when we're not using words?

 

Francie Winslow: So just to clarify, I did not create theology of the body. It was really coined by a man named Pope John Paul II. From 1979 to 1984, he gave about 129 sermons that are all unpacking this idea that our bodies are a physical revelation of invisible truths. I find evidence of that throughout the entire Bible. And that's what Pope John Paul II... he went from Genesis to Revelation, unpacking this truth that God reveals Himself through creation, primarily as the crown of His creation, our bodies and the gift of marriage and the marriage union and the analogy of marriage. 

 

If you see kind of through the Bible, if you think about God started with the union of a man and a woman, throughout the Old Testament He's pursuing Israel like a bridegroom would pursue a bride. He's calling them His bride. He's saying, "I'm your husband" in Isaiah. And in Hosea, we see Him give the instruction for Joseph to pursue the wayward woman just like God pursues us, because He wants to show and present His heart for union and for this marital intimate love that lasts forever. Then we obviously know that Jesus came and calls Himself a bridegroom, that the church is His bride. And in Revelation, we see that there will be a wedding. 

 

So there is this huge Genesis to Revelation revelation that somehow is easy to miss when we're just caught up in conflict management or contracts and kind of seeing it from an earthly point of view. When we see it from a biblical point of view, we see there is a theology here in marriage, in sexuality, and in our bodies. 

 

One of my favorite quotes from Pope John Paul II says, "The body, in fact, and only the body is capable of making visible what is invisible, the spiritual and the divine." And we see in Romans 1 where it talks about how God... we have no excuse because basically through all that God has created, He has revealed Himself. 

 

So in the beginning, God took His very nature and stamped it on the body of a man and a woman, calling them very good so that we could see glimpses of what He's like in maleness, in femaleness, and especially in the union of those two becoming one. And the result of that is this incredible fruitfulness. 

 

[00:13:46] So there's so much theology that is worth digging into, worth being in awe of, worth giving some thought to, because it brings back the goodness and the rightness and the holiness to this conversation that the world is trying to hijack.

 

But when you're talking about what does this look like in real life, the reality that our bodies speak, they're constantly made to reveal something. One of the things that I talk to my kids about on a very non-sexual, regular level is our bodies are constantly speaking. They're meant to be places of God revelation. If your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, it's made to be a place where people see God. 

 

And our bodies are basically walking encounters. So people can see God in the kindness of your eyes and in the gentleness of your, you know, a little back pat. If your friend's having a hard time, you can give them a pat on the back, or we can bring cookies to our lonely neighbor with our hands, make them with our hands. And all of those ways our bodies are revealing the love and the tenderness and the compassion of God.

 

In the marriage bed, if you want to take it a deeper level, when to become one, that's what the marriage promise is, is that I will be one with you forever. So when two bodies become one, it's as if they're telling a bigger story and saying, I recommit myself to you. I love you.

 

If you roll your eyes conversely at your spouse or give them the cold shoulder, your body is speaking. I'm ignoring you. I don't care about you. I'm shut down. But when you lean in with your body, your words can say, "I'm here with you." But when you lean in with your body and you choose connection through sexual intimacy, your body is speaking something beautiful and powerful, which is, "I'm here. I do. I want to continue to lean in to you. I want to be one with you. I want to celebrate our connection. I want to go deeper."

 

So in everything we do, because God made us physical, we are constantly communicating. And I think that's one thing that I've learned is that our bodies are powerful communicators. And what is it that my body is communicating to my spouse right now? Am I communicating that I care, that I'm present, and that I want to pursue more depth with him? Or am I communicating, Hey, I'm distracted. I'm on my phone all day, I'm ignoring you, I'm not making eye contact with you? Those things are also communicating. 

 

So I think it's a fascinating look to look practically in our everyday interactions. And then also sexually, our bodies have the ability to communicate powerfully. And that is one of the things that I think has blessed our marriage is to realize how powerful of an opportunity that is to communicate love.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:16:16] I think that you lay out a great foundation and really have given us a vision for God's view and His vision for sex. Is there anything else specific that the Lord has taught you, Francie, about sexual intimacy within marriage?

 

Francie Winslow: I think I probably brought into it just a lot of shame and a lot of kind of a difficulty being comfortable in my own skin and feeling confident as a wife. And I think part of that is because of my more conservative background and being maybe a little bit more on the modest side and wanting to walk in freedom with the Lord and my expression of love to Him and wanting to walk in freedom with my husband and my expression of love to him. 

 

I think that's been one of the beautiful gifts that I've realized is that marriage is an incredible journey. One of the things my mentor, Juli Slattery, talks about is that sex is not a destination, it's a journey. And we get to continue to learn. 

 

I think that one of the things that's been comforting to me is that I didn't need to know everything that I know now on our first year of marriage. And what I know now is even a sliver of what I'll know 50 years from now. And I can rejoice in that and I can rejoice in the fact that I always have room to grow as a lover, as a wife. 

 

That it's holy to grow our sex life. That it's an adventure to learn different ways of expressing love together, and that it's an invitation to more intimacy together that actually leads to fruitfulness outside of the bedroom as well.

 

And seeing that it's all an invitation and not a should, and that it's an opportunity to build something that not only benefits our marriage, but ripples out to impact the culture of our home and ripples out to even our way that we love and serve the world in our careers and our churches and our communities, it just makes me love God's design, and it makes me love the way He created it, and it makes me want to say more yes to God and more yes to my marriage because I'm constantly discovering how good it is and how good He was to give us this gift.

 

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Laura Dugger: [00:20:00] Jesus transforms us from the inside out. In the same way, you teach what happens in the secret place inside of our marriage overflows to the rest of our lives, and it can benefit our relationships, our parenting, careers, and even the community at large. Will you elaborate on that idea? 

 

Francie Winslow: Totally. I was just kind of alluding to that a little bit. I called it the ripple effect of sex because I think another lie is that sex is just about sex. And you just got to do it and get it done and make your husband happy or, you know, trying to get a baby, trying to conceive or it's kind of like this separated part of our life that is just related to either pleasure or procreation. 

 

What I realized is that in the beginning, the first great commission was given to a husband and wife. God created them, delight in them, blew the breath of life into them, and celebrated their connection by blessing them and telling them, "Be one, be fruitful, multiply, and take dominion together." 

 

And it's that dominion is a place of serving the earth, serving the world, bringing the glory of God into all that He has given us to care for. I feel like that is a powerful vision for marriage. And that's one that we've realized the more intimate we are with God and the more intimate we are with each other in the secret place, the more capacity we have to overflow with life. 

 

On a practical level, I'll say, when Wyatt has a work meeting or when I have a deadline and we are disconnected in our marriage, it feels really hard to be supportive of each other, to be behind each other, to cover each other when there's gaps or weakness. And it just begins to be this grind. There's a lot of conflict. There's a lot of difficulty, a lot of misses, a lot of pain. 

 

[00:21:47] On the converse side, when we have intimacy, when we're pursuing regular connection and going deeper together, there is an overflow of grace and there's an overflow of abundant love for each other that impacts the way we parent together. 

 

Maybe one of our kids is struggling. When Wyatt and I have prioritized oneness and intimacy and we are connected and we're feeling like on the same page, then we are able to parent on the same page and we're able to support each other and back each other up. And then it ripples outside of our home because not only is the atmosphere of our home more peaceful when we are unified and connected, we're able to go to work with more confidence and with more support from each other, which enables us to do better work and to serve people better and enables us to say yes to the ways that God's calling us to serve the church. 

 

Ultimately the whole culture is impacted by the health of the secret place of marriage. Because when marriages are strong and they're thriving and families are thriving, the culture thrives. But when marriages are struggling and our view of sex is warped and there's pain there, families struggle and the culture struggles. 

 

So it is this powerful ripple-out impact that I had no idea sex was related to. But isn't that God's good design? And it is a mirror or a small picture of the bigger intimacy. So you were talking about our intimacy with Jesus. I can't do any good works apart from unity with Jesus. I don't have any good fruit outside of my prayer closet unless I am one with Jesus, unless I am connected to Him. He is my source. He is the lover of my soul. He is the source of all goodness from me. 

 

So the deeper intimacy I have with Jesus, the more fruit I have outside of my little walk with Him and outside of my prayer closet, and outside of my times with Him. But if my intimacy with Him is dry and brittle and empty, I don't have much to give outside. So I just have loved the parallels of those and how true they are.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:23:40] You sum that up so well because there are some huge truths that you're unpacking. I've been spending a lot of time in the Book of John recently. And so you're talking about being connected to the vine and we can do nothing outside of Him. But then also this secret place, this inside-out transformation that starts in marriage and flows out, that is so biblical to see the fruitfulness that comes. Because of fruitfulness, another word for that is multiplication. And you've taught before that multiplication flows through our families. So I just really appreciate that perspective. 

 

Francie Winslow: So good. Thank you. 

 

Laura Dugger: How do you believe that sex in marriage is a way to fight against Satan and his darkness? 

 

Francie Winslow: Well, I do know that Satan is incredibly jealous of image bearers, and he hates the fact that in the very beginning, before the world was even created, he wanted to be like God. He wanted to be equal to God. And he chose that rebellion and got thrown out of the courts of heaven, and as a result, had had this enmity and this hate for the image bearers of God who God said He made in His likeness. Not that we're equal with God, but that we reflect the goodness of God on this earth He gave us to steward. 

 

So the enemy is constantly trying to destroy and dismantle the image-bearing qualities that we carry and also disengage us from understanding them and seeing them. So, for one, I think just knowing that sex is a gift that bears God's image. It's two becoming one in a way that is so intimate and good that it produces fruitfulness. 

 

We just covered how that shows a mirror picture of our walk with Jesus. That when we are one with Jesus our lives become fruitful. But there's also a power of male and female that the enemy hates. And he wants to dismantle our confidence in what is male and what is female. 

 

And he wants to discourage us and detach us from the connection with our bodies that God called good. Because there's a significance to being male and there's a significant stabbing female independent of marriage, just as image bearers. That we see something beautiful about God in a father and we see something beautiful about God in a mother. And even in the physiological nature of a mother in nursing, what that reveals about God is that He's tender. Because if all of us images Him, we can see God revelation within even the anatomy and physiology of a male and a female body. And God loves that and the enemy hates that. 

 

[00:26:16] So I think when we celebrate our maleness, our femaleness, and in the coming together of two to become one, we really do a good number on the enemy's plans. And we really push back a lot of that confusion by celebrating the good design of God and by celebrating it with our kids and honoring it and always in truth and love, giving glory to God for the good ways He made us, the good ways that help us thrive, the good ways that reveal what He's like. 

 

And I will say that in terms of specific marriage, the enemy wants to bring disunity. He wants to bring division, and He wants to separate what God meant to be one. So leaning in in times of discouragement, in times of depression, even in times where we have been struggling with deep grief and trauma within our family because of many factors, we found that sex is a powerful weapon.

 

I'll even say just really short. I have a long story about this, but we were trying to discern whether or not it was time for us to adopt and there was a real division happening within our marriage. I actually was super afraid and didn't want to do it and felt like my plate was too much. And it was just clear that the enemy was bringing a ton of division on what was supposed to be a good thing.

 

So one night we went on a date and realized we were super disconnected and really coming at each other from a bad angle. So we chose to have sex before the date because we know that sex is not just about pleasure or procreation. It's about saying, "I'm here. I'm not going anywhere. I am one with you." 

 

So we did it before our date thinking, Okay... That's just a little side tip. Sex before dates often make better dates. But before that tense date, we had sex because we realized that sex is also a weapon against disunity. It's a weapon against division. And it's a way that we can fight for unity, which brings the blessing of God. So we went on our date... We actually got more disconnected because things were just really deeply, deeply rooted in where we were coming from. 

 

So we came home and we had sex again because we were putting a stake in the ground saying, Though we are disagreeing, though we're struggling through something, we're not going to let it divide us. We're going to continue in a spirit of unity while we work this out. And I think that was a pretty profound moment for us to say sex is about so many things, and one of the things that is also is a stake in the ground for unity, where the enemy might be trying to tear us apart.

 

[00:28:30] <Music>

 

Laura Dugger: I want to take a moment to say thank you. You are the reason our team gets to delight in this work, and we appreciate each of you so very much. If you're benefiting from the lessons learned and applied from The Savvy Sauce, would you take a minute to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts? Five-star ratings and reviews help us reach more people around the globe, and that promotes our goal of sharing joy. So join us in that endeavor with your valuable feedback. Thanks again for being here with us.

 

[00:29:01] <Music>

 

Laura Dugger: On the other side then, how is sexual intimacy within marriage one way to sow to the spirit? 

 

Francie Winslow: Well, you know, I think the spirit is about unity and he's about fruitfulness and he's about oneness. So when we celebrate it from a place of honoring God's design, we see an abundance of more of the fruit of the Spirit in our marriage, because we're honoring His design and we're inviting Him into it to lead us. We're not perfect. We haven't figured it all out, but we're saying, God, we're sniffing out something good here and we want you to be a part of it. We want to know you more into it. 

 

I will say that when we prioritize intimacy, we call God thoughts afterwards. I often end up writing after we have sex because I feel like there is something... there's a lot of brain chemicals that are being released throughout the brain that are really profound for bonding and attachment and clarity of thought and reduction of stress and all these cool things that God designed.

 

But also intimacy has also just launched us into this capacity to partner with the Holy Spirit outside of our bedroom. So I just see it as a way to celebrate God's good design, as a way to lean into intimacy together, and also as a gift that propels us to partner with the Holy Spirit, not only in our marriage but outside of our marriage, too.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:30:20] And I would love for you to speak to the spouse who may be listening and maybe they're already tired and they're feeling like this is just one more thing to add to my to-do list for the day. What would be your encouragement to reframe that thought into reasons why prioritizing sex with our spouse is so vitally important, even when we don't feel like it right in the moment?

 

Francie Winslow: Oh, I totally, totally get that. As I mentioned, I have six kids and I'm exhausted most of the time. I will say that we enjoyed the idea of sex drive early intermarriage, where he had a big drive and there was passion. I'm not saying there's not passion now. But there's a different passion because we've been married almost 16 years and it's more the reality of we're both tired. 

 

But we realize the gift that God has given us in sex. So we prioritize it from a different way. I will say that we have both come many nights to the bedroom and say, "Oh, we're so tired, we just want to plop in a bed. But we want connection, so let's switch gears. 

 

And that's one of the things that has been helpful language for me. Instead of just telling my husband, "I'm just way too tired" or "Oh, I have a headache" or "I don't know anybody else touching me. I've been clung to all day by little babies" or "I've been working hard." Instead of straight up just switching out into the no category. I just use this phrase, "Hey, I really want to connect with you. Give me a minute to switch gears." 

 

Because it's just a different gear. It's not an impossibility. I just need to switch gears and I need to have a different frame of thinking because I've just been doing six bedtimes or laundry or cleaning up the kitchen and I'm not in the intimacy mindset, but I can get there. So I often go to my bathroom and I've just developed this little conversation with the Lord when I'm really tired and just say, "Okay, Lord, here I am. Give me your strength, because I want to choose connection."

 

And I know now that sex is not about the temporary moment of pleasure. It's about building a marriage of oneness and connection. So just like I might not really feel like working out because I'm really tired, I know that it's good for me and it's a healthy choice for me. So on those tired days, sometimes that's what gets me to say yes. 

 

And I always am glad I do it and I never regret it. And you get that chemical brainwash of oxytocin and dopamine and vasopressin. And it's a gift. It is a gift. But sometimes it's harder to get there on some days than others. But I do resonate with that tired mom. But I also have found that leaning in... we talk about that word a lot too. Just lean in. When you're tempted to lean out, lean in. Maybe if you're both so exhausted, it just looks like a really nice, intimate cuddle or maybe, you know, a different kind of connection. But generally speaking, having sex when you don't feel like it can still be great sex, it just has to be an extra intentional step to get there.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:33:07] I think that's a very mature response because that's when it becomes decision sex rather than drive sex. But the desire can come after that decision is made and that decision for unity. 

 

Francie, I know you and I share such a similar heart of encouragement for marriages. I've noticed that we both want Christian couples to join together more regularly and more freely as they get to experience all of God's good gifts offered within marriage. And a huge part of where this begins is in our minds. So I would love for you now to give us a few positive messages to replace the negative lies we've previously bought into about sex.

 

Francie Winslow: I think the big thing for me is that sex is not about sex. It's about connection and choosing connection. When we choose to lean in, we realize that it's much richer than a transactional exchange. And when we practice curiosity, God, how did you make our bodies, how did you make this gift of sex, we want more, we realize that there is so much more than the silence of the church and so much more than the perversion of the world. 

 

There is this holy other option that is good and that can be adventurous, that can be deeply meaningful when we look at it in a different light. And I think thinking, okay, sex is not about this act, it's not a man's need, a woman's duty, it's a marriage is a gift. And I want to know more about that gift. I want to find out more about what God was dreaming about when He designed it, when He imparted us with this desire, when He actually made our bodies to fit together like puzzle pieces. There's something wonderful about that.

 

I also really love the idea of choosing, like you said, the decision over the drive. I think that is really beautiful. Sometimes women feel two ways: either annoyed by their husband's drive. Like, Oh, he wants me all the time. Re-seeing that. 

 

[00:35:07] I had a woman who's been married 33 years reach out to me. It was so precious. She's in her gray hair years. And she said, "Francie, I listen to your podcast and now I realize that when my husband says, "Hey babe, it's late, I know, but I really want to have sex with you, instead of being annoyed by him, I hear him say he desires me, he wants connection with me. And that's his way of reaching out." So she started celebrating it more, less as a burden, but seeing his drive as an invitation to connection. 

 

The other side is that a lot of women will tell me, Hey, I have a higher drive than my husband. And I think whoever has the higher drive learning that it's not about drive and echoing you again, it's about decision, it's about connection. And knowing that if you do have the higher drive, you can be playful and you can initiate and you can celebrate that. 

 

But drives do one thing. They drive us together and that's worth celebrating. Drives come and go. Drives change with the season and the hormones and the amount of kids or whatever stage you're in. But just knowing that there's a bigger picture at play and that it's worth leaning into and worth choosing connection for.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:36:10] Those are good truths. I just also want to highlight one other that I've heard you share on your podcast before. You posed the question, Do we really want exhaustion to dominate our marriage and our lives? And you went on just to encourage that that heaven on earth connection is possible when we trust God's design over our current emotions or exhaustion.

 

Francie Winslow: Yeah, well summarized. I think that's true. I think our exhaustion and our emotions are fleeting, but God's design is eternal. He imprinted his design on this gift of marriage to show us something bigger. So when we're ruled and tossed by our present emotions, we miss out on the bigger eternal picture that's being revealed through the gift of married sex.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, and I always appreciate having a safe place to recommend people to go after this conversation so that they can get further educated about sex within a biblical worldview. I think you do such an incredible job of that. So would you like to share where you could direct listeners to learn more from you?

 

Francie Winslow: Absolutely. I have a podcast called The Heaven in Your Home Podcast. With that being the prayer that we would encounter God, His presence, His rule and reign, His Kingdom of Heaven in every room of our home, reordering our hearts and our desires so that we see His good gifts on sex marriage and His mission through it all. 

 

So the podcast is a great place. I would start closer to the beginning of the podcast. Episode 1, 2, you hear a bit of my story, my background, and then I really build on these ideas that I have gleaned and learned and experienced. I would just be so honored to have any listeners join me there. 

 

This summer, actually in June, I'm launching a discipleship circle, a Heaven in Your Home discipleship circle. So if anybody wants to take the content and really go deeper and have a little bit more access to me through Q&A and a few other deeper resources, you're welcome to join me there as well. That information is on my website, franciewinslow.com.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:38:08] Wonderful. We will make sure it's easily accessible in our show notes today. You know we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. So as my final question for you, Francie, what is your savvy sauce? 

 

Francie Winslow: Okay. This is going to be just a fun tip. So in our season of complete exhaustion, just to be real, six little kids, we have found that significant and quality sexual connection is really hard. So we might have a few touch points throughout the week, but we have really realized the fun gift of half-day rates at the local hotel, whatever that is. 

 

You can find cheaper rates on hotwired.com or Priceline and finding the cheapest rate we can at a hotel. And instead of spending money on dinner in a movie, we spend money on a hotel room. And we'll go from like 4 p.m. to 10 p.m. and have a time where we're intimate together. We could take a nap. We could watch a movie. We can have conversation. And it's like a reboot. 

 

So that's my little tip, my savvy sauce is don't overlook the potential for a marriage getaway right in your little town or your city that costs almost as much as dinner in a movie. And it can really be a great marriage reboot for your intimacy. We do it pretty regularly. So that's been a really sweet tip that I'd love to pass on.

 

Laura Dugger: [00:39:33] I love it. You are the first one on the savvy sauce to respond that way. That is so clever. Francie, there is just such an obvious and apparent anointing from the Lord on this message and what He's been teaching you. And I'm so grateful that you've compacted what you've learned in 16 years and offered it to all of us. It has been such a gift to spend time with you today and I would love to invite you back next week as well.

 

Francie Winslow: Awesome. Well, I look forward to joining you. Thank you so much. What a gift!

 

Laura Dugger: [00:40:06] One more thing before you go, have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

[00:42:04] At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So are you ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.