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Practical Chats for Intentional Living
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Monday Nov 02, 2020
Monday Nov 02, 2020
*This episode includes some adult themes and is not intended for little ears*
119. Healthy Minds, Marriages, and Sex Lives with Drs. Scott and Melissa Symington
**Transcription Below**
Hebrews 12:1b+2a (AMP) “stripping off every unnecessary weight and the sin which so easily and cleverly entangles us, let us run with endurance and active persistence the race that is set before us, [looking away from all that will distract us and] focusing our eyes on Jesus, who is the Author and Perfecter of faith [the first incentive for our belief and the One who brings our faith to maturity],”
Drs. Scott and Melissa Symington are clinical psychologists who met and married during their studies at the Fuller Graduate School of Psychology. They live in Pasadena, California with their two children (Samuel: 15 & Naomi: 11), where they have a group practice with the internationally recognized sex therapists Cliff and Joyce Penner.
The Symington's share a passion for helping individuals and couples move towards greater freedom, aliveness, and intimacy. Within their general practice, this passion has led to sub-specialties in marital and sex therapy; treating anxiety disorders; and integrating spirituality into the change process. In addition to their clinical work, they teach, write, and speak on a range of topics, including the key ingredients of marital passion and intimacy; and the practical application of mindfulness principles to anxious worries, destructive moods, and other barriers to happiness. Here are a couple new highlights/developments:
- Dr. Scott Symington – With the release of his recent book, Freedom from Anxious Thoughts & Feelings: A Two-Step Mindfulness Approach for Moving Beyond Fear & Worry (New Harbinger Publications 2019), Scott, in addition to his private practice, has been busy teaching, training, and presenting on his Two-Screen Method—the user-friendly-application of mindfulness featured in his book.
- Dr. Melissa Symington – Alongside her clinical work, Melissa has been publishing blogs on relational intimacy and enjoying teaching human sexuality at Fuller Graduate School of Psychology as an adjunct professor.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Freedom from Anxious Thoughts and Feelings by Dr. Scott Symington
Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner’s Episodes (Referenced During This Interview)
Episode 18: 7 Easy Changes to Enhance Your Sexual Intimacy in Marriage
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
Dwell is an audio Bible app our family recently discovered, and now we love it. Dwell's mission is simple: to help you get in the Word and stay in the Word. And I think that is the ultimate practical application for intentional living. Visit dwellapp.io/savvy to get a 20% discount today.
There is so much to learn from today's episode. Drs. Scott and Melissa Symington are my guests. They are both licensed clinical psychologists in Pasadena, California, and we're going to cover topics ranging from ways to live more fully alive and free, to sexual intimacy in marriage, including the role our relationships and our brains play in sex, and practical applications for enjoying our marriage more. [00:01:27]
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Drs. Scott and Melissa.
Dr. Melissa Symington: Thank you. Morning.
Dr. Scott Symington: Thank you. Great to be with you.
Laura Dugger: Your story is very unique, and I'm assuming that you get asked this all the time, but how did the two of you meet?
Dr. Melissa Symington: Well, we met in graduate school at Fuller Theological Seminary. We were both pursuing our PhDs in clinical psychology. In my second year, and in Scott's first year, I was the TA. So on my very first day, I went to my room. I got there 45 minutes early, and I was going to set everything up and write my name on the board.
I walked in, and there is this dude sitting in my class. And I was so upset that he was sitting there. I just really wanted the space to get set up and to kind of set the stage and he's sitting in there. I was thoroughly annoyed with him. And of course, it was Scott. [00:02:26]
Dr. Scott Symington: In contrast, this beautiful woman walks in, and I think to myself, "This is going to be a great quarter."
Dr. Melissa Symington: We didn't start dating until way past the grades we're in, when the class was over.
Dr. Scott Symington: And then there's been a lot of life that's happened since then, because that was year...
Dr. Melissa Symington: 2000.
Dr. Scott Symington: Wow, year 2000. We have two children, Samuel and Naomi. Samuel's 15, Naomi is 11, and we're here in Pasadena, California.
We have a group practice here in Pasadena, working mainly with adults, individuals, and couples. And yeah, we've got a full life here, including being very involved in our church, La Cañada Presbyterian Church.
A lot of life has happened since that first encounter, where we had very different experiences internally. But we did sort of get on the same page shortly after.
Dr. Melissa Symington: Yeah.
Laura Dugger: I love that story. It makes me wonder, as you think back and reflect on your time spent at Fuller, how do you think we can move toward more freedom, aliveness, and fulfillment in life? [00:03:34]
Dr. Scott Symington: I love those words, freedom and aliveness. We have a plaque that's framed in our home by St. Irenaeus of Lyons. Maybe you're familiar with it. It's "the glory of God is the human person fully alive." I love that quote. It moves me.
It's interesting, right, because we were designed to fully express who God envisioned us to be. We're wired a particular way. And I believe that we're called to move towards, and as best as we can, fully express who He designed us to be. But there's all these barriers. One big barrier and a subspecialty of ours is worry and anxiety.
What happens is, in life, we want to settle a lot of things. Like we want to feel safe, secure, have certainty, have everything in its proper place before we move forward in life in a purposeful, meaningful way. [00:04:39]
So, let's say, when it comes to worry and anxiety, and we're in a space of, what if I fail, or I disappoint someone, or there's so much uncertainty in the world right now, we tend to go away in our minds and brood and ruminate, seeking a kind of control and security that sometimes can't be had.
When, in my mind, where the true freedom and aliveness really kicks in is when we learn the very difficult art of moving forward, even when we feel afraid. Keeping our eyes on God and our values and the best parts of who we are, even when there's all these distractions out there and things that feel unsettled.
Dr. Melissa Symington: We are so easily distracted by so many different things and oftentimes we don't know what to pay attention to. We have kind of jumbled ideas. Sometimes things come into our head that we weren't expecting or, you know, worry us. And we feel this pull to attend to whatever is happening around us, whether it's in our head or in our environment. And sometimes we feel like we're all over the place. [00:05:57]
Real freedom is about knowing how to focus our attention on what is life-giving, what gives us the most value, our faith, and then allowing those things to pull us forward or to anchor us.
Dr. Scott Symington: Yeah, this idea which we see throughout the Old Testament, of God reminding his people to choose life. Right? There's that very prominent theme.
I believe one of the ways that we choose life is where we put the spotlight of attention. Like our attention, our mind is always somewhere. And we've been endowed with this freedom, this gift. And it's a powerful gift of placing attention on the object of our choosing.
And that spotlight of attention, like if we go away in our mind and we put it on a concern, a worry, we give energy to that worry and it becomes stronger and more pronounced in our internal world. [00:06:57] But alternatively, we can rotate that spotlight of attention to the things above and seeking God's presence and who He's called us to be the present moment, our values.
So this idea of being aware of where we're placing our attention and cultivating the things that are more life-giving that lead to aliveness and freedom.
Laura Dugger: This often happens during interviews where the guest will just bring scripture to life in my mind. And the Lord is in his kindness this morning had me in Hebrews 12. And I feel like you two are just communicating this message.
I'm just going to read a portion of two of these verses from Hebrews 12, 1, and 2 in the Amplified version. It says, "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses [who by faith have testified to the truth of God's absolute faithfulness], stripping off every unnecessary weight and the sin which so easily and cleverly entangles us, let us run with endurance and active persistence the race that is set before us, looking away from all that will distract us and focusing our eyes on Jesus, who is the author and perfecter of faith, the first incentive for our belief and the one who brings our faith to maturity. [00:08:26]
Dr. Scott Symington: That is absolutely spot on. Our internal worlds are a pretty busy place. And sometimes it's hard to separate out the more destructive thoughts and feelings from the more life-giving ones. Right? I think conceptually, most people are on the same page. It's a question of application, though.
It's like so when someone is in a distracted state or feels anxious, they're worried or there's an unhealthy temptation, for a lot of people, they're still somewhat lost in terms of what do I do on the inside in those moments to make that potentially destructive stimuli less powerful? And how do I stay tethered to that which offers life that I'm called to?
It's been a fascinating journey. But eventually what I developed is something called the two-screen method, which helps you quickly organize your internal world and separate out those destructive thoughts and feelings off on a side screen, and then giving you anchors or tethers to stay more connected to the front screen, which is the present moment and God's presence and the best version of self and these different internal experiences that translate into a sense of well-being. [00:09:48]
Laura Dugger: Yes. Scott, could you elaborate on that and maybe give us an example of what that may look like for the two-screen method?
Dr. Scott Symington: Yes. So it's based on an image that depicts your internal world. You imagine your internal world as a movie theater with two screens. Imagine walking into a dimly lit movie theater and kind of go up the stairs and settle into a seat. Right? And so straight ahead, you're looking at the front screen.
The front screen is where you experience the present moment and the more life-giving thoughts, feelings, images, the best version of yourself. That's where the cross is. So all of that internal stuff of life that translates into a sense of well-being. It doesn't mean life is perfect, but you're generally in a good space.
But the challenge is, in our movie theater, there is a second screen off to the right, a side screen. [00:10:48] The side screen is where the threats, fears, worries, insecurities, dark moods, and unhealthy temptations show up.
A classic way that that side screen can show up in our life is you're leaving a really awkward social interaction and you're trying to live the good life, stay attuned to the front screen. And as you're leaving that interaction, the side screen lights up and your internalized reflexively swivel over to take a look, and scrolling across that side screen is, uh, such a stupid thing to say.
And then we go away in our minds, typically in these situations, and we start unpacking the social tapes on the side screen. OK, what I said, what they said, it's kicking off some insecure, anxious heat. Right?
And as we stay parked in front of the side screen, those thoughts and feelings in that side screen, it gets larger and more pronounced. And before you know it, it's an IMAX theater with Dolby surround sound and it's very difficult to rotate back to the front screen. [00:11:54]
So the two-screen method shows you how to relate to the side screen in a way where it will fade into the background and have less power and presence in your life while giving you anchors on the front screen to stay more tethered to that which offers life.
I mean, I'm giving you a very brief synopsis here because, you know, the book that I wrote features this method and has a chapter on each aspect of the method. But that's a little overview.
Laura Dugger: That is incredibly helpful. And yes, the book can unpack all of that methodology much further. But let's zero in on marriages now. How do you think that we can identify our own unhealthy relationship patterns and then begin to pursue healthier options?
Dr. Scott Symington: The first step is raising self-awareness and taking inventory of what your painful emotional triggers are. [00:12:54] We come into marriage with a history. And in that history we all carry pain and woundedness and longings. And all of that stuff gets kicked up when we're in an intimate relationship.
So instead of attributing it all to the other person, to the spouse, it's important to understand where it's getting supercharged from one's history.
Dr. Melissa Symington: I really resonate with restoration therapy, that model, their pain cycle, peace cycle. The idea that all of us enter into a relationship with history of something that's painful and then we also cope. So we either blame someone else for our pain. We shame ourselves for pain. Like, it's my fault because there's something really wrong with me. We try to control other people or the situation or our pain by various ways, perfectionism, etc. Or we escape. [00:13:56]
So there's lots of coping that we do alongside of painful triggers. And so identifying our feelings and then what do we do when we have feelings that we don't like, feeling unloved or feeling disrespected, feeling unseen? Do we have a coping strategy that we automatically go to? Do we start to blame the other person or self-shame or control or escape?
Usually figuring out that kind of pattern — again, there's a lot to this theory, I'm just kind of giving you the bare bones — when we're in a relationship, a marriage, or even relationships with others, parents, children, whatever it is that we do to cope usually triggers pain in the other person and then they cope. And so the pain cycle is a series of pain, coping, pain, and coping.
So being able to identify feelings. Being able to say, what do I feel? What do I do when I feel painful feelings? [00:14:57] How do I cope with them? What are the unhealthy ways that I cope with painful feelings? What else could I do instead of doing this thing like yelling and screaming, let's say, because I felt unloved? I don't want to do that.
So this is where you move from the pain cycle to the peace cycle. The truth is I know you love me or the truth is I know that I'm loved. The truth is I know I can control myself. I can control how I treat you. And then I follow that truth with an action. So I'm going to listen or I'm going to go on a walk or I'm going to do something else.
Laura Dugger: So, Melissa, it sounds like moving into that healthier place would require making the covert overt, so doing some self-work and then communicating that. And is there a next step then that a listener could apply?
Dr. Melissa Symington: Yes. Identifying the pain cycle is the first step, but then also identifying a peace cycle. [00:15:58] So identifying what do I know that is true? So even my feelings come and go. I mean, they're valid. Feelings are valid, but they're not the truth. The truth is something that's separate.
So a truth statement might be God loves me or I am lovable or I can control myself or something like that. And then following up with an action step. So here's the truth and here are actions that follow from the truth. I can be patient. I can be kind. I can be loving.
Dr. Scott Symington: One thing I would add is that, with this model, you're fire-drilling this in advance with a couple. Each spouse is aware of the other's pain cycle and what they're trying to do in the peace cycle. So it's almost like they're alerted, Okay, here we go. This is the protocol. Right?
So, you know, when somebody is verbalizing their pain cycle and their intention of doing something new, then the other spouse is prepared to offer the new healing response. [00:17:00] Ideally, this takes practice and it's messy. But, you know, you're moving towards life and more of a peace cycle and peace more of the time. Right?
No relationship is free of any conflict or hurt. Even when it's healthy, there's going to be some of that. But it's more and more peace and less and less being captured by each other's pain cycles.
Dr. Melissa Symington: There will always be bumps. There will always be conflict. We're human people. But being able to recognize, "Oh, we're in our pain cycle. Oh, I see what's happening here." So it's that ability to quickly identify "I see what's happening inside of myself or in me. I see what's happening relationally between us."
One suggestion is to write it on three-by-five cards and kind of put it all over the house so you have reminders. So it does take a lot of practice. It's not about perfection. It's about practicing this idea of moving toward repair.
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor. [00:18:00]
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Laura Dugger: What are some ideals you two are pursuing?
Dr. Melissa Symington: Marriage is about growth, always. And so for us, our relationship has always been a work in progress. When we first got married in graduate school, you know, the first couple of years of our marriage were rocky.
We were in graduate school. We both were in pretty intense individual therapy. We were trying to learn how to be married and live with one another. [00:20:01] But we were going after the hard stuff.
Dr. Scott Symington: We flushed it all out right in the beginning.
Dr. Melissa Symington: Right in the beginning. We really, really kind of went after the things that we needed to go after. So for us, it was about learning how to find our stride, that we needed to learn how to live and be in relationship, learn how to repair.
Again, this is something we have to learn over and over again in our marriage. And as soon as we kind of hit our stride in our first couple of years of marriage, we were ready to have kids. And then we had to find a new stride because we were now new parents.
So just our ideals have always been, we're in a new season, there's something new to learn here, remain humble, seek growth, seek repair, and kind of move forward from that, which has been a good pattern, especially now that we've found ourselves in a global pandemic and during this time where everything has changed. And so we have to figure out a new way forward. [00:21:01]
Dr. Scott Symington: Oh, and just on a parenting note, even though we're both clinical psychologists, we struggle just like every other parent in trying to figure out what is best for each of their kids and how to create the right environment at home. And I don't think you ever quite get there.
A sign of this is actually we're currently running the August Symington Boot Camp at home. Trying to get our kids ready for the school in fall. Because there's a lot of bad habits that have been developed over the last several months. Way too much screen time. Inactivity.
Every day right now, thinking about body, mind, and soul, everybody has to do a couple of meaningful, purposeful activities that fall under each of those categories, for their body, for their mind, and for the soul. And we get sort of a report from each of our kids at the end.
By the way, we don't normally run our household this way. We're sort of doing this as a very specific intervention to get things in order. [00:22:03]
Dr. Melissa Symington: Well, it's an illustration of what I was talking about. We've been in a season of quarantine, a season of global pandemic, a season of, you know, we don't know what's going to happen. And this is lots of us, right? All of us. And we've had to refocus. We've had to say, That doesn't work. What do we do now?
Dr. Scott Symington: I do want to say one thing about our relationship and kind of early on. Melissa and I left no stone unturned early on because of how we're wired individually in the field that we're in. And what you would normally end up addressing over 15 or 20 years, we basically condensed that into about a year and a half.
And I remember the moment when we were in kind of a tense conversation, which felt pretty familiar. I would relate it to a pain cycle. And we looked at each other and smiled. And it was the turning point. It was like, hey there, we're not as activated by this anymore, and transcending some of those pain cycles. [00:23:14] And then that really just set the stage for just a very close, loving relationship that we have held ever since.
Dr. Melissa Symington: And not that we haven't had fights or not that we haven't had-
Dr. Scott Symington: It's been perfect.
Dr. Melissa Symington: It's that we recognize we can repair. We can repair. Over and over again, we come to this place of something is painful or we have to have a hard conversation or we need to look at something. And we know from experience, we can repair. We can move forward.
Laura Dugger: It makes me think our friends David and Lisa Frisbie are authors and they wrote something that they encourage couples of any age: But a little drama now saves trauma later. And I think you two modeled that by really leaning in. It may have felt a little bit more dramatic in the beginning as you worked through these issues but it saved you from so much trauma later on in marriage. [00:24:15]
Dr. Melissa Symington: Yes.
Dr. Scott Symington: Well said.
Laura Dugger: And listeners may find it interesting that you two work with another couple who specializes in Christian sex therapy. Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner. And they've actually been repeat guests on The Savvy Sauce. So I'll certainly link to those episodes in today's show notes. But I would love to know, what are some of the main takeaways that you two have learned over time from your partnership with the Penners?
Dr. Scott Symington: The Penners are amazing.
Dr. Melissa Symington: They're wonderful, wonderful people.
Dr. Scott Symington: We love them so much. And there are many takeaways. A couple right off the top of my head. One is, they're such a beautiful example that if you are open, like if you preserve a childlike openness to life and where God takes you, life becomes this just incredible adventure and journey. [00:25:14]
I mean, their story is remarkable. And part of it is because they have been so available for the journey, for the unexpected stuff of life. And it really it's amazing. So to be connected to them and witness the unfolding, the continuous unfolding of their life and experiences, it really is amazing and inspiring and faith-giving.
The other piece that stands out is just how powerful sex therapy is and that good marital therapy in many ways needs to include this physical intimacy piece, like have a sex therapy component to it. If you really want to get in there and address the deepest stuff, it's a very, very important component.
So even when couples come to see us that don't have a sexual issue per se that they want to address, it's always in the mix now. And I feel like we just do much better clinical work because of this training and because of the Penner's influence and model. [00:26:25]
Dr. Melissa Symington: And I would add what I've learned from them and working with them is just the importance about teaching about healthy sexuality, whether that's working with clients, working with couples or even individuals.
But also I'm an adjunct professor at Fuller and I get to teach the human sexuality course to the MFT students. So these are students who are training to become therapists. And what I always say at the very beginning of the class, Hey, you might not want to go into sex therapy. This might feel very uncomfortable for you as a therapist. You might think, this is not what I'm signing up for in terms of talking about these types of issues with people I'm going to work with.
But if I allow myself as a therapist to grow in this area, to open myself up as a clinician, that this is such an important gift I can give clients that if I'm open and I'm willing, if I know this area and I have some knowledge here about healthy sexuality, that my clients want to talk about this. [00:27:37] They don't have a place to go with any of this information. There's no one to talk to about this kind of stuff. And therapy is the perfect place to talk to.
But if you're a therapist who's kind of closed down about sexual issues, they won't have that opportunity. And so, you know, it's about comfortability. So we're going to talk about all these issues. And the more comfortable we can become talking about this in this class and understanding these issues, the more comfortable you're going to be in your person. And when you're sitting there with clients, they'll be able to tell.
So case in point, when we started working with the Penners, we both finished our PhDs. We had worked with clients before, but it wasn't until we got that extra training in sex therapy where we felt more comfortable talking about sexual issues.
Because even as PhDs who are married and had children, you know, you think we talk about uncomfortable issues all the time where, you know, we're therapists. Surely we could talk about sexual issues. But until you actually kind of go there and open yourself up to it, we discovered that it was hard for us to even talk about it. [00:28:43]
So for my students, I encourage them like this is an area where if we just open ourselves up to healthy sexuality, talking about what healthy sexuality looks like, we will be giving our clients a gift. They'll be able to tell, I can talk to my therapist about these issues. So that's kind of what we've learned from the Penners. Lots of things.
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. What can you teach us about the neuroscience and the role it plays in intimacy?
Dr. Scott Symington: Dan Siegel at UCLA in interpersonal neurobiology is doing some really interesting work. It's interdisciplinary and they call it interpersonal neurobiology. And it's all about how we are wired for relationships and intimacy and how relationships change our brain.
We can do brain imaging and see how intimate relationships and friendships can actually have an impact neurobiologically. So it gives a whole new meaning to that saying, you know, choose your friends wisely. [00:29:52] I mean, obviously, choose your spouse wisely as well, because we change each other's brains.
You know, one interesting facet of that is the discovery of mirror neurons, how are our brains react to the things that we see in the other. So if I were to see you pick up an object, there is a part of my brain related to that action that would light up just me visually seeing you do it. So we are so linked even sort of neurobiologically. There's this back and forth.
Dr. Melissa Symington: We're talking about physical intimacy. I mean, I don't like to separate out physical intimacy from emotional intimacy or spiritual intimacy. I think all those things go together. They hang together.
True intimacy is when all those things are kind of lined up. But when we're talking about all those things, emotional intimacy, spiritual intimacy, and physical intimacy can have these positive kind of neurochemical effects on us and each other in terms of oxytocin, feeling bonded, feeling close. [00:30:59] That's the cuddle hormone.
But what's interesting is people like to separate out the physical part or the sexual part. And it's interesting because when we first get to know someone, when we're first dating someone, there's that intense attraction that we feel.
And when we feel that intense attraction, we have all kinds of really awesome brain cocktail happening. Right? We have dopamine, which is all the feel-good chemicals. We have adrenaline because it's new. So dopamine and adrenaline together just kind of boost up this kind of excitement that we have when we're first dating someone.
What's interesting is that people love this part of dating, this part of engagement, this part of this new part of the relationship because it feels so good. And it's also linked to that kind of fantasy part. We don't really know that person that we're just starting to date or even as we are getting engaged. [00:32:03] We don't know what it's like to live with them. We don't know what it's like. So we're kind of running on this kind of cocktail.
Our brain cannot sustain that level of dopamine and adrenaline. It usually decreases around 6 to 24 months after any brand-new relationship. So we think about that in terms of people dating, getting engaged and getting married.
Once we've crossed over into marriage, we're past this point where the brain can even kind of sustain this high level of adrenaline and dopamine. And so people come into our offices all the time and say, "You know, I want to feel the way I felt when we first were together. Or I want to feel how I felt when we were dating. It was so exciting. I couldn't wait to be with that person. I couldn't wait to touch them or I couldn't wait to do this or that. You know, everything they said was fun and funny and exciting, and now I'm annoyed by this person."
The change we believe is it's a movement from intense attraction to attachment. And attachment is all about covenant. Attachment is about I choose you. Attachment is I'm in this with you. Good, bad, and the ugly. Okay, that's not fantasy, that's reality. [00:33:24]
So even though the dopamine and the adrenaline kind of start to decrease, we have to make this movement into oxytocin, where we choose intention, and loving each other is a value versus a feeling. So moving into that is where I believe true intimacy begins.
Intimacy doesn't happen in the beginning stages when we're on a high and we feel so wonderful with our soon-to-be spouse. True intimacy is the gritty, is the raw, is the hard. And it is in that space where we learn and grow. And it doesn't mean it can't be wonderful or pleasurable, but it requires intention.
Laura Dugger: And then as couples are together longer, you're right, it's been proven over time that dopamine and adrenaline will decrease and it will feel very different. But then it's fascinating to hear from couples who have been married such a long time. I would say even more wonderful feelings and experiences come from that intimacy. [00:34:31]
And looking at the brain, would that be more with the oxytocin and serotonin over time that is more sustainable? And you can't overdose on those like you can on dopamine and adrenaline.
Dr. Scott Symington: The answer is yes. And I would add one other piece. Yeah, there's the oxytocin, the serotonin.
There also is the history of that dopamine-laden relationship, which can get activated. It just doesn't sustain itself at that same level of intensity. So they've done brain imaging experiments like Helen Singer and others where even with couples, long term couples that express being in love, you know, when they're showed images of the other person, whatever, that there is more dopamine activation than for a stranger, let's say. So it's not like it's totally absent. It's just not at the same level.
Dr. Melissa Symington: Yeah. And people want that. It's got a shelf life. [00:35:32] It's still there but now we have to put in the intention. We have to put in the work. There is a richness that goes with sticking it out and together being bonded in good times and in bad times.
You know, oxytocin is released when we hug, when we kiss. It's released when women are breastfeeding. It's released when men are holding their babies and bottle feeding and looking into their infant's eyes. So this is all about we're bonded. We're a family. We're together. We're in this.
And so allowing that to take the lead, I have covenanted with you and I am in this with you. So it takes intention.
Laura Dugger: And so two quick follow-ups on that. Is oxytocin also in the marital relationship? Is our brain kind of bathed in that through eye contact as well, like if we're connecting through eye contact or conversation with eye contact? [00:36:33]
Dr. Melissa Symington: Yes. I use the example of putting a hand on the shoulder and looking into someone's eyes. This happens with friends. This is like fellowship. But even as spouses, we need this level of bonding. We need this non-sexual way of bonding. So what's fascinating is oxytocin shows up, is released when we look into each other's eyes, when we hug. So when we move more into kind of passionate, like kissing, when we hold hands, it's released at orgasm.
So it is released throughout our ways of physically showing affection and love and care, which again is always connected to our emotional and spiritual parts too. It creates a baseline of we're attached. We're in this together. And it's very calming. What it does is it soothes any kind of anxiety. It helps to regulate our bodies.
So, neurochemically, oxytocin is a great co-regulator. So when we have stress, we have high levels of cortisol, oxytocin is one very helpful way of calming our bodies. [00:37:40]
You know, touch is the first language of love. We learn that when we're infants. You know, when we cry, we get picked up, we get cuddled. We're held close when we're fed. Again, whether that's through the breast or a bottle. You know, someone's holding us gently and looking into our eyes.
That first year of life there's a lot of touch that's happening. There's a lot of care that's communicated through touch. And we have to recognize that that's very important in our marital life as well. To remember that language of love through touch, through eye contact, through holding each other, through looking into each other's eyes, and then all the way up through the sexual relationship.
Laura Dugger: And this may not be the main area of focus for a married couple but you alluded to the fact that we can recall those dopamine feelings. So could you give any really practical examples of how that occurs?
Dr. Scott Symington: Yeah. [00:38:39] So you've had the Penners on your show a couple of times. I imagine they've talked about the Penners formula for intimacy that they recommend for couples. Holding each other, kissing for five to 30 seconds every day.
There are certain intimacy rituals that a couple can practice that activate or keep that historical network going. But again, it's not going to be at the same level as the honeymoon period. But it does keep it kind of more available and part of the relationship. So it's investing in different intimacy rituals that help bring that network online and keep it there.
Dr. Melissa Symington: I think for us personally, when we talk about the early days... So for Scott and I, when we talk about, remember when we were first dating and remember when, you know, we always laugh because we're like, we were so stupid back then. There's so much we didn't know. We've grown so much. I can't imagine us being the same way we were in the past. [00:39:43]
But that still does kick up those feelings, that dopamine and the adrenaline because it's a part of our story in a fun and funny way. And then we can also laugh at it and say, but that wasn't all that it was cracked up to be. Or that's a part of our story, but look at the rest of our story. Look at how much we've been through. Look how much we've grown.
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Please consider joining Patreon today by going to thesavvysauce.com, then clicking our Patreon tab and following the instructions when you click the link "Join Patreon" Here. We hope it takes you less than five minutes and we can't describe how much this means to us. [00:40:48] So thank you in advance. We appreciate you.
And as it relates to the sexual part of marriage, what is something that you two wish every couple listening could learn to freely enjoy with their spouse?
Dr. Melissa Symington: I think mainly I always like to say that intimacy is not sex and sex is not intimacy. Sex is an important part of intimacy, but it's not the whole thing. It's not the whole picture.
So keeping in mind that the emotional and spiritual parts of intimacy and physical intimacy are really important. Physical intimacy doesn't mean sex. Physical intimacy means all the ways we use touch to show care and love and support and closeness.
What I want people to know is that everybody struggles with sexual issues. We know from research that 45% to 50% of all individuals and couples report, at some point in their life, some kind of sexual problem or dysfunction. And we know that's what's just reported. [00:41:48] So if it's that high, it's 45% to 50% of what's reported. You know that it's much higher than that.
So sexual issues are very prominent in our culture, in the church, too, because we have so many cultural myths and problems communicating about sex. We have unrealistic expectations and historical hurt and misinformation. And that kind of keeps us in this very stagnant pool because we think everybody else has a great sex life except for us or nobody else seems to be having a problem. But I have a problem.
I guess I want listeners to know that everybody, everyone is kind of swimming in the same waters unless they are going after healthy sexuality intentionally.
The six building blocks — these are kind of like a DNA structure, they all kind of hang together, they're not totally separate — include integration. That means that healthy sexuality is about being a whole person. [00:42:48] We don't separate it out from our spiritual side or other aspects of ourself.
I use the Great Commandment to illustrate that, that we're supposed to give God all of who we are. We're not supposed to split ourselves up. And likewise, we give all of who we are to our spouse.
So integration is important, making sure that sex is a part of who we are as a person and we acknowledge it, that our body is good, that it goes together with our spiritual aspects of self.
We have to have correct information. So integration, information. That means we need to root out anything that is not true, any myths that we've picked up along the way. Where did we get our information from? We have to ask ourselves good questions.
Number three is communication. We need to be able to talk about sex with our spouse. We have to talk about sex with our kids. We have to talk about sex in our church. We have to be able to be more open about talking about that sex is a gift and is good from God, and how do we steward that. [00:43:52]
Fourthly, mutuality, that sex is not something that... it's not a commodity or a battle of needs. It's not power used over someone, but it's a balanced way of caring for the other. Sex is about connection. It's deeply relational.
And then lastly, a healthy sex life or healthy sexuality always includes relaxation, meaning it needs to be free from anxiety. It needs to be safe. So those building blocks, again, are integration, information, communication, mutuality, connection, and relaxation.
So I know I just said a whole lot, but I just feel like that is so important for people to know that healthy sexuality takes intention. It takes time. It takes work.
Laura Dugger: That was incredibly helpful. Another really common area of frustration in marriage can be desire discrepancy. [00:44:52] So could you speak to both the high-desire spouse and the low-desire spouse?
Dr. Scott Symington: Yeah. So, in the honeymoon phase of the relationship, usually there's a lot of sexual desire, mutual sexual desire, and strong attraction. But then once you move out of the honeymoon period, the discrepancy in sexual desire between spouses is revealed, right? Because it's never 50-50 exactly.
I mean, usually it's more like 70-30 or 80-20. But that imbalance in sexual desire was covered up early on in the relationship. And so once the relationship matures, the discrepancy is revealed, and that's where problems begin in the physical intimacy department.
Because pressure and demand is often introduced there, even if it's not intentional, right? So the lower-desire spouse maybe feels guilty or is confused why they're not as interested. [00:45:58] And then they're kind of moving into that category of what we would call duty sex, which is less than ideal, or they're feeling pressure and demand. Then the party with higher sexual desire may feel undesired and also be confused that the spouse is not as interested in them. So there's this whole dynamic that begins there.
And so when you perceive that your partner is interested in sex, there's really three primary responses that you could have. His or her desire could activate your desire. So desire meets desire and the two go to the bedroom and there's no issue, right? That's when it works seamlessly.
You perceiving that your partner is interested could activate a sense of duty where you're feeling pressure and demand and it's really not a great fulfilling experience for you. You're doing it more out of obligation. It's more like a job.
But God has given us a third option. [00:47:05] This is where we're helping couples in sex therapy a lot. And that is the decision category. So if you perceive that your spouse is interested, ideally there is freedom in the relationship to not go in that direction where either you're not consumed by guilt or feeling.
Dr. Melissa Symington: Not ashamed.
Dr. Scott Symington: You're not ashamed or feeling pressured by the other. So you have freedom to make a different choice or to put up a boundary. So even though in the moment you may not be interested, this is the decision category, you say to yourself, "Huh, I'm not really feeling it right now, but I'm open to moving in that direction."
And that's not signing a contract for intercourse. That's just moving in that direction, knowing that you have the freedom as you start engaging in pillow talking or it's just some casual caressing to just let it be that. Or it might go further and turn it into hot sex. [00:48:08] I mean, and there's a kind of an openness for both parties around trusting the unfolding and making sure there isn't pressure and demand.
A lot of healthy sex is happening in this decision category where on the front end, one spouse and sometimes both spouses aren't experiencing a lot of sexual desire. But when they feel freed up and then they start connecting and relaxing, the engine gets up and running and then they're surprised by the sexual desire and arousal that kicks in.
Laura Dugger: That is so well said. If you two could only share one more thing about intimacy or deepening enjoyment in marriage, what would you like to say?
Dr. Melissa Symington: Sexual intimacy or sexual relating, there should only be three goals. The goal should be pleasure and touch, emotional connection, and relaxation. [00:49:08] And it should never be orgasm because as soon as there's some pressure or goal to have an orgasm, then everything kind of goes out the window in terms of there's going to be performance anxiety and other issues.
So that would be the sexual part, I think, or relationally, I think just intentionality, continuing to move towards one another with curiosity and openness to growth.
Dr. Scott Symington: I'm just echoing that. Like all important things in life, your relationship, physical intimacy, it takes time and investment. It's not something that just happens on its own that may occur in the honeymoon stage. But once you're out of that, it's something that you need to be cultivating and working on, and then it bears fruit.
Laura Dugger: Well, Scott and Melissa, there is so much more to talk about. We could talk about this all day. But if listeners want to learn more from you, where would you direct them? [00:50:12]
Dr. Scott Symington: Yeah, going to our website, drsymington.com. There are a lot of resources there.
Dr. Melissa Symington: Resources in terms of sexual intimacy, but also just marital intimacy, Scott and I are a part of the Relate Strong team, which comes out of the Boone Center at Pepperdine. And it's a group of mental health professionals, researchers who help write and speak to pastors.
So they have resources when they're sharing in their pulpits. But if you go to the Boone Center, Pepperdine, the Boone Center, there's an eBook that you can download. We have a section in there that talks about sexual intimacy, but there are sections on just the pain and peace cycle that we were talking about earlier.
Also, a great resource would be Scott's book, which is Freedom from Anxious Thoughts and Feelings. And that book is a very helpful tool. [00:51:15] It talks about the two screens, but it's a book about mindfulness, but it's very easy to understand, helpful.
Dr. Scott Symington: Just a user-friendly application of those principles. Because when it comes to physical intimacy in marriages, we have side screens, right? And there's a lot of, even if you want to go right at the physical intimacy, noise in the bedroom. So things that are potential distractors from the present moment and connecting with the other.
So, yeah, it gets into the two-screen method and how to separate out and make less powerful those distractions and problematic thoughts and feelings that we're always contending with.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will certainly link to all of that in both our show notes and on our Resources tab of our website. We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question for the two of you today, what is your savvy sauce? [00:52:17]
Dr. Scott Symington: So one thing that we do with all the couples that we see that's made a huge difference is what we refer to as the loving action list. That is having each spouse spend some time listing at least 30 ways that they feel loved, valued, respected, and cared for in the relationship. And those could be things that are happening or have happened in the relationship or they wish that would occur.
The key thing, though, about making this list be effective is translating, let's say, an idea of when he adores me into concrete behavioral action. So a fly on the wall could spot a loving action taking place. So instead of it being an abstract concept, it's a very specific behavior. When he tells me I'm beautiful, you know, when she sends me a text in the middle of the day, when he initiates a date night. So- [00:53:25]
Dr. Melissa Symington: Concrete.
Dr. Scott Symington: Yeah. Because that's the key thing. Because then what happens is once you get that master list, then spouses can swap lists and then you have in your possession a bullseye list and how your partner is loved.
We encourage couples to just look at that list periodically throughout the week and act on one of those. Some of them don't take a lot of time. Some of them maybe are a little bit higher level. But just each spouse, you know, having in their possession really a way of loving the other. It has a profound effect on couples.
Dr. Melissa Symington: Yeah. These are small ways to show love, but they're so effective because it's the small things that add up. It's like putting money in a bank. So then you have a reserve to draw on when you do hit those bumps.
So you have ways to look at something and identify how loved you are or how to care for your spouse. And I love it because it's a menu of options. [00:54:28] Scott and I have a list. I look at my list all the time. So even though we're psychologists and we teach these things and we talk to couples about it, we also use this as a tool. It's very helpful.
Laura Dugger: That is so helpful. You two are just incredible teachers. It's been fascinating to hear from such a talented couple who are both in love with each other and the work they get to do. So thank you for sharing your expertise with us today. And thank you for being my guests.
Dr. Scott Symington: Laura, great being with you.
Laura Dugger: Yes, it was a pleasure. Thank you.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him. [00:55:28]
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:56:30]
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. [00:57:36] I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
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