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Practical Chats for Intentional Living
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Monday Aug 31, 2020
Monday Aug 31, 2020
109. Powerful Purpose of Introverts with Holley Gerth
**Transcription Below**
Holley Gerth is a Wall Street Journal bestselling author, life coach, and speaker with a master of science degree in mental health. She cofounded (in)courage, a site that received almost one million views in its first six months, and cohosts the popular podcast More Than Small Talk. Holley is passionate about empowering people, especially introverts, to embrace who they are and become all they're created to be. Holley lives in the South with her husband, Mark. You can connect with her at holleygerth.com.
Psalms 139:14 NIV “I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well."
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Sample of Books by Holley Gerth:
The Powerful Purpose of Introverts
You’re Made for a God-Sized Dream
Other Savvy Sauce Episodes to Grow in Self-Awareness:
42 Understanding and Utilizing the Enneagram in Your Life with Beth McCord
71 Deep Dive Into the Enneagram with Beth McCord
72 Understanding Temperaments to Improve Your Relationships, Part 1 with Kathleen Edelman
73 Understanding Temperaments to Improve Your Relationships, Part 2 with Kathleen Edelman
85 Five Love Languages with Dr. Gary Chapman
92 The Enneagram Explained with Sarajane Case of Enneagram & Coffee
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Samaritan Ministries offers a Biblical solution to health care, connecting you with other Christians who will support you spiritually and financially when you experience a medical need. Learn more at SamaritanMinistries.org.
This conversation is one of the most enlightening chats I've ever been a part of as it relates to personality differences of extroverts and introverts.
Our guest has an impressive bio. Holley Gerth is a Wall Street Journal bestselling author, life coach, and speaker with a Master of Science degree in mental health.
She's going to share so many insights into the lives and personalities of introverts. So whether you're an introvert or you love someone else who is one, this time is going to be super helpful.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Holley. [00:01:17]
Holley Gerth: Thanks for having me, Laura.
Laura Dugger: Goodness, can I just start by saying I love, love, love your writing. It's so obvious why you're a bestselling author. And so today I'm excited because we're going to be discussing your newest book. But before we get to all of that, will you just begin by telling us more about who you are, who you share your life with, and how you typically spend your days?
Holley Gerth: Yes. Well, I'm the granddaughter of a Christian bookstore owner. So I was that little kid with a big stack of books dreaming of being a writer when I grew up. So it's fun that that actually happened.
Another dream that has come true in my life is my family. I have kind of a crazy family story. I've been married to my husband, Mark, for about 20 years. We couldn't have kiddos, and God brought our daughter, Lavelle, into our lives when she was 20. And so she now has two little kiddos and a husband. So I just became a nana for the second time three weeks ago, which is very exciting. [00:02:22] So I have Lavelle in my life, her husband David, little Eula, and now Clement Luther as well.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that is incredible. And congratulations.
Holley Gerth: Thank you.
Laura Dugger: Well, your most recent book is titled The Powerful Purpose of Introverts. We were chatting a little bit before this, I was telling you I'm about as extroverted as they come. But I 100% adored this book. And so I can vouch for saying it's helpful for both introverts and extroverts.
But I do think there are so many misconceptions of the definition of these categories. And you explain in the book that introversion and extroversion aren't about personality but how we're physically wired. So can you elaborate?
Holley Gerth: Right. That was a big aha for me. Also, none of us are 100% introvert or extrovert. We're all somewhere on a continuum. [00:03:21] I actually have a little one-minute quiz on my side if someone's curious how much introvert do I have in me. But like you said, Laura, you're probably more on the extrovert side, I'm more on the introvert side. But that actually comes from how we're wired.
We now know that introverts and extroverts use different primary neurotransmitters, have different parts of their nervous systems that they rely on more, and also use different primary brain pathways.
And so I love that because it says to me that we are created as introverts and extroverts, that we're a complementary pairing, that God said, I'm going to put these two different types of people together because we have strengths that really bring out the best in each other. And we kind of balance out the world when we're both fully embracing who God created us to be.
Laura Dugger: Amen to all of that. [00:04:20] But just in case anyone's curious about the definitions or about any misconceptions, do you want to give an overview of how an introvert can be defined?
Holley Gerth: Yes. I would say an introvert is someone who engages with the world differently as far as how we respond to external stimulation. And external stimulation just means anything coming into our nervous systems from the outside. So that's really the basis of it.
A lot of times people think being an introvert is about people because people are the most stimulating things in our environment. But it's actually not about that. It's just about how we process what's happening in our environment.
Laura Dugger: Okay, that's helpful. So someone who loves people and maybe really enjoys conversation with them, that could be someone who is extroverted or introverted. Is that right? [00:05:21]
Holley Gerth: Either one. Either one. Because both introverts and extroverts love people equally. They are equally social, just differently social. For example, an introvert would probably enjoy coffee with one friend more than a crowded room or party. Because, again, going back to that stimulation, there's a lot less going on in that conversation with one friend.
Introverts can fully focus. We can take our time processing. We can sort of lock in on this one person and give them our full attention. And that's sort of our preferred way of connection.
Extroverts may like to do that sometimes, too. But they're also more likely to enjoy things where there are more people in the room, where they can talk to several different people in a short amount of time, where they can connect or be in a group or share a story.
And so it's not about how much we love people or whether we're social or not. [00:06:21] It's just what setting is the most natural for us to truly connect with people.
Laura Dugger: I want to go a little bit further. So let's just do a little brain and hormones 101. So specifically, will you teach us more about the brain differences between introverts and extroverts?
Holley Gerth: Sure. So I mentioned the neurotransmitters. So we all have a neurotransmitter called dopamine. It's a reward chemical. Anything, again, that external stimulation is going to activate it. You can think of dopamine as kind of like caffeine. It revs us up. It energizes us.
Introverts kind of have a dopamine level that already feels good to them. It's like they've had their coffee for the day and they're set, where extroverts have a more active dopamine network and they actually need more of it to feel their best. So they're going to say, "I need a few more cups of coffee." So the way they're going to get that is by finding external stimulation, like engaging with people or having an adventure, you know, all of those things that we think about with extroverts. [00:07:30]
Introverts rely more on a different neurotransmitter called acetylcholine. And acetylcholine is released when we turn inward, when we're reflective, when we're in quieter environments, when we're doing things that are more restful. And that is what makes introverts feel our best.
So you can kind of think of dopamine as coffee, acetylcholine as tea. We all use both of these, of course, but we each have a slight preference for one over the other.
So extroverts lean more toward that energizing dopamine system. Introverts lean more toward that calmer, reflective, inward-focused acetylcholine. So that's one major difference.
Then we each have two divisions of our nervous system: sympathetic and parasympathetic. And they work in much the same way. One revs us up, one is in charge of calming us down. So, again, extroverts and introverts rely on different parts of our nervous systems. [00:08:34]
And then the third thing is they have actually found that introverts and extroverts use different primary brain pathways. And so extroverts use a shorter, faster brain pathway. That means they're mostly focused on the present. They're good at thinking quickly, speaking quickly, acting quickly.
Whereas introverts have a longer, more complex brain pathway that goes through several different centers of their brain. They pull in the past, the present, and the future, then kind of combine that. And then they're ready to share what's on their mind.
So a lot of times introverts will get frustrated because they say, in a meeting or something, I need time to gather my thoughts. Why can't I just spit it out? And it's because they're using that different brain pathway. But it becomes a strength because they are considering so many different parts of a situation and bringing that into whatever they're adding to the conversation. [00:09:39] So they're really thinking through what they're going to say.
So if you picture a situation like a meeting where you have an extrovert that says, "I have an idea," and the introvert says, "Let's think about how to make that happen," and then the extrovert says, "Okay, now it's time to make a decision and act," and the introvert says, "I'll make sure those steps get taken." You kind of see that back and forth between the faster brain pathway and then the more reflective, complex brain pathway and how together those two work really well.
And again, this isn't exclusive. We all use both of these brain pathways. It's just that we naturally go to the one or the other first.
Laura Dugger: I really appreciate what you just shared. I remember reading something like introverts are not slow processors. They're deep processors or deep thinkers.
Holley Gerth: Yes. A lot of times people say about introverts, You know, she doesn't talk a lot, but when she does, it's worth hearing. [00:10:39] And so we need to lean into that and not say, Okay, I have to make myself respond differently. But instead say, I have permission to take the time that I need to think because that is going to empower me to add more value to the conversation I'm in or more insight into a decision that needs to be made.
And so it is always okay for an introvert to just say, You know what? That is really important to me. I need just a little bit of time to think about it. We often feel uncomfortable giving ourselves that permission, but it's totally okay. And it lets us work more at our peak capacity.
Laura Dugger: And then you also write about self-awareness being crucial to thriving. So can you just elaborate both on what self-awareness is and what it is not?
Holley Gerth: I think self-awareness is just understanding who you are, who God has made you. [00:11:41] There's three different ways that we can approach the world. We can approach the world from a place of self-focus, from a place of self-criticism or from a place of self-awareness.
Self-focus is pride. You know, I'm better than everyone else. Self-criticism is that insecurity and fear that can trip us up where I'm not as good as anyone else. Self-awareness is just saying, you know what? God has made me unique. He's given me strengths and gifts, and I want to understand those so that I can serve and fulfill His purpose for my life.
So I think a lot of times, especially believers, get tripped up because we confuse self-awareness with that self-focus. Or we try to do self-awareness and run into self-criticism. But I think saying, you know what? When I choose to be aware of who God made me, it just empowers me to serve and love well and to thrive as who I'm created to be. [00:12:44]
I love how that verse, Psalm 139:14 says, "I praise you because I'm fearfully and wonderfully made." And so self-awareness does not lead to pride. It doesn't lead to self-condemnation. Instead, it leads to praise. Because we can say, "Wow, God, look at who you made me. Now help me offer that to the world."
Laura Dugger: I agree with that totally. That discovery is so helpful. And when you look at others who are self-aware, I just find them to be so life-giving.
Holley Gerth: Yes. Usually, people who are self-aware are good at giving other people permission to be who they are too. Because if we are not self-aware, our basic assumption usually tends to be that everyone is just like us. So when we understand, Okay, I'm different and unique. I have my own strengths and purpose and abilities, then we look at other people in the same way and say, "I'm not asking you to be more like me. [00:13:44] I want to know how I can empower you to be who you're created to be. And then how we can partner together for the kingdom."
That's what I love about it is that being aware of yourself allows you to also be aware of how others are created. And then when we all do that, we become the body of Christ, which is God's heart and vision. I think that gets me more excited than anything else is when I see someone just take their place in God's plan and embrace who they're created to be.
Laura Dugger: I think I'm with you. I'm discovering there's something too that you want it for everyone. And the more I read the Bible, it seems like God wants that for each of His children and for us to work together in that, not try to be someone else.
So for you as a life coach and counselor, what tools have you seen help with self-awareness?
Holley Gerth: Well, I was just listening to one of your episodes with Beth McCord about the Enneagram. [00:14:48] I think that's a helpful tool. I really like the Myers-Briggs personality test. And so that's sort of one letter in that will give you whether you're an introvert or extrovert.
I like a quiz by Gretchen Rubin called The Four Tendencies that helps us figure out how we respond to different expectations. And I think the love languages, most of us are familiar with that, but just understanding how we give and receive love.
I think all of those are helpful tools. There's a lot of them out there. So just kind of exploring and seeing what appeals to you and then applying it in your life. That's an incredible list.
Laura Dugger: Other than Gretchen Rubin, we've had guests on each of those topics, including Dr. Gary Chapman with The Five Love Languages and Scott Wildy with Myers-Briggs and multiple guests for the Enneagram. So I'm glad you brought that up. We will certainly link to that in the show notes if someone wants to pair that with your book to help grow in the self-awareness. [00:15:52]
But back to your book, you share nine specific strengths of introverts, and the first one being strategic solitude. So how is solitude different than simply being alone?
Holley Gerth: Well, I hear introverts say a lot, "I need time alone." And that is actually very true, again, because of what we talked about with our brain and nervous system wiring. When we're saying, "I need to be alone," we're saying "I need some time with less external stimulation to be restored.
If you think about our nervous systems as nets, because of the way we're wired, introverts are like a net with really small holes. And so we catch everything going on around us, which means at some point our net is going to be full and we're going to need to take some time to empty some of that out, which means just having time to process.
That is different from just being alone. I think being alone is about the absence of other people. [00:16:56] I think solitude is about an intentional choice to reconnect with God, with your true self, and even with others.
Sometimes when I'm alone, I actually feel still really connected to other people. The goal of solitude is to come back to connection, where when we're just alone, sometimes we can feel a sense of disconnection.
So I encourage introverts to ask themselves, am I choosing this time on my own? Is it intentional and restorative? Does it ultimately make me feel more connected to God, others, and my true self? And if the answer to those questions is yes, then it's solitude. It's not just time alone.
And solitude is absolutely essential for introverts. It's actually essential for extroverts, too, even though they may not need quite as much. In our world today, solitude, I think, is so important because it's where we think, we reflect, we slow down and process, we live intentionally, we come up with new ideas, we exercise our creativity. [00:18:08]
All of these things happen in solitude. And so I want introverts to be able to let go of any guilt they feel about needing that time alone. It is not selfish. It's actually an act of service.
Laura Dugger: I've always just envisioned solitude has to be sitting there trying not to think about anything. As you described it, I kind of had my own aha moment that that's actually one of my favorite and most fruitful spiritual disciplines.
Holley Gerth: And it is. For much of the history of the church, solitude was a regular rhythm in the lives of believers, just like prayer or fellowship. We happen to live in a time in our culture where faith leans a little more extroverted. And I think solitude is maybe one thing that we have lost in all of that.
So, yes, solitude is fruitful. It's creative. It's necessary. And it is, I think, part of just our walks with God, because when we are alone, we are still with Him. [00:19:13]
Laura Dugger: So what can help introverts and then all of us really find what you refer to as sacred confidence?
Holley Gerth: Yeah, I share a text in the book that I got from my amazing friend, Taylor, who is a smart, beautiful, wonderful introvert. She sent me a note late one night and said, "Sometimes I wonder why God made me an introvert. And sometimes I even wonder if he can love me that way." And that broke my heart that I've had the same thing expressed by other introverts who just feel like they don't fit at church or they don't fit with a certain kind of faith walk and think, I need to change.
I think sacred confidence is, again, going back to that self-awareness and then just realizing that there is no one right way to connect with God. I tell people, think about how you connect with people when you feel the closest to the people that you love. [00:20:18]
So, for example, I mentioned having coffee with one person. That'd probably be it for me is I'm sitting across from you, there are no distractions, we're engaged in meaningful conversation. I realized that's how I feel closest to God, too. I literally this morning had coffee with Jesus at my breakfast table. I had my coffee and my journal, and I was with Him like I would be with a friend.
So if we think about that, then it gives us insight into how we're created to connect with God. It is okay if you're an introvert who enjoys being alone and journaling as your faith practice. It is okay if you're an extrovert who loves going on mission trips with 20 strangers to another country, if that is what makes you feel closest to God.
So saying God is delighted by how we connect with Him as we are because He's the one who made us that way. [00:21:16] And, yes, I think there are practices we're all called to, and I'm not saying to exclude those. But just to lean in more, to give yourself permission to lean in more to the spaces where you feel closest to God.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that gives so much freedom. I identify with resisting how I'm created to lean into that fellowship. I enjoy that so much, and it does produce the fruit of the Spirit. And yet I think there's this lie as well of, Oh, this is selfish. You should be doing a different way to connect with the Lord. So you're saying you think a lot of introverts experience that as well?
Holley Gerth: I think so. I think when it comes to being a person who loves God and loves others, we confuse quantity with quality. So we think, if I'm a loving person, if I'm a good Christian, then I have to have as many relationships as possible in my life and help as many people as I can and go to the ends of the earth. [00:22:21]
When I look at Scripture, I never see anything about quantity. I see God talking about quality, like 1 Corinthians 13, where we're told love is patient, love is kind. Those are things that we can do, whether we're with one person or whether we're with 1,000 people.
So encouraging introverts to say, stop picturing any kind of quantity when it comes to your relationship with God and your relationship with people and focus on quality, focus on loving who is in front of you in that moment, and don't worry about it, if you don't have as big of a group of people in your life as someone else might, that's not what you're wired for, and that's okay.
So I think, again, it's just saying, God delights in us when we reflect His image that He's placed within us. And we all do that a little bit differently. [00:23:21] And we need both. We need introverts and extroverts to be exactly who they are.
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Laura Dugger: Holley, as you're describing this, it just makes me envision freedom and that you want to invite people to live in this freedom and grow closer to God. So will you take us back? What was the catalyst for choosing this as your book to write?
Holley Gerth: I would say this is a book that I've been preparing to write my whole life. I remember being in fourth grade. Actually, when I told my mom I was writing this book, she was like, "Of course you are. [00:25:23] In fourth grade, you did your science project on birth order and read Kevin Leman's birth order book and came up with an assessment to give all your friends and see if they matched up with the characteristics and advanced to regionals." And I was like, "Okay, I guess I did."
And I didn't hear the word "introvert" until I was in college. And it was one of those moments where I remember exactly where I was. Like I have this photograph in my mind of it. I was sitting on this old gray carpet in this building and campus ministry had a speaker come in to talk about personality and they said the word "introvert". And I realized for the first time I'm not the only one who feels this way or is wired this way or who would rather have a conversation with one person than be in a big group of people. All of these things.
So I started just learning and studying introversion and what that meant. [00:26:21] And back then there really wasn't a lot. It was really Susan Cain's Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World that Can't Stop Talking that came out in 2012 that made the conversation about introverts mainstream.
But I read that and every other book I could get my hands on and I just began to realize that there's this other side of the story to being an introvert that isn't told as often as I would like for it to be. We tend to define introversion by what's not. "I don't like small talk. I don't love big parties. I don't this or I can't that."
And that is not the full or even the most important part of the story of being an introvert. The most important story is introverts have specific strengths that our world needs more than ever before. That we are wired for connection, that we process in a way that is really valuable, that we have so much to bring to our friends and family and communities and churches and the world. [00:27:30]
And so I wanted to empower introverts to not think I need to change who I am, but instead, I want to fully embrace who I am. So that's a journey I've been on personally and that is what I've spent hours and hours and hours studying everything I can get my hands on about introverts from brain science to books to sending out a survey to my blog readers that over 2,500 people responded to.
So I've condensed all of that, my personal journey into this book and it has been transformational for me. And so I am excited for introverts to be able to learn about who they are and about people who love, lead, or share life with introverts to learn more about what that means if you happen to have an introvert in your world somewhere.
Laura Dugger: Well, I just want to say well done because your mission has certainly been accomplished. Now, will you describe how happiness can be different for introverts and extroverts? [00:28:34]
Holley Gerth: Yes. As I mentioned, we live in a culture that right now leans a little more extroverted. That actually hasn't been the case throughout all of history. It's actually not even true everywhere in the world right now.
For example, Finland is a more introverted culture overall and they also keep getting ranked as the happiest country in the world, which is interesting. But because of that, when we see images of happiness, like on commercials or places like that, they tend to look more extroverted.
So you think of the beer commercial where everybody's partying on the beach or we're all at a concert or we're going on a vacation on a cruise ship with all these people having adventures. You know, there's absolutely nothing wrong with leaning toward those adventures or big groups. It's just that that definition of happiness isn't a fit for everyone.
Because of our brain wiring at the extrovert experience of happiness looks more like excitement and enthusiasm. [00:29:40] Where for introverts, because of the acetylcholine that we favor, happiness looks more like calm and contentment.
And so if an introvert who is wired to feel at their very best when they are in situations where they can be calm and content is always seeing cultural messages that say happiness looks like being enthusiastic and excited, then they may start to question, what if I'm not really happy?
So what introverts need to know is you are happy. You are just differently happy. Your happiness just looks different. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
And so I challenge people to say, what are your happiness synonyms? For example, if there is a long list of happiness synonyms, which actually have in the book of words that people can choose from, extroverts might be more likely to circle enthusiastic, excited. [00:30:41] Introverts might be more likely to circle calm, content.
And so understanding that subtext to our happiness can really protect us from chasing what looks like happiness, but is actually not a great fit for who we are. We can get to a place in our lives where we're like, "I did everything I was supposed to do, I chased everything I was supposed to chase, I did all this outward stuff, and I'm not happy. What's wrong with me?" It's often that we have taken on a secondhand definition of happiness that just isn't a fit for us.
So I found this can be really clarifying for introverts, not only in obviously increasing their happiness but also giving them more clarity about what they really want to pursue in life.
Laura Dugger: I just want to respond with a few things, because that section was especially profound. I think you taught me that well-meaning extroverts can try and encourage introverts to experience fun the way they have fun or they experience it. [00:31:49] And introverts are probably feeling "I'm already happy. I'm just differently happy." So that was a huge realization.
But even bigger than that, my husband and I have been married for over 11 years and we've always prayed to continue getting to know each other better. Way back, even before we were married, he took the Myers-Briggs and tested as an extrovert. And then he's dropped some hints over time, like, "I might be an introvert."
I never fully bought into that until this chapter I was reading next to him. And I just paused and asked him to give me his definition of happiness. And he verbatim started listing the words in your introvert synonyms. So it was just this gateway to other conversations.
So due to your book, it was such an answer to that prayer to get to know each other better. [00:32:48] So I want to say thank you, because you helped us both realize, indeed, he identifies as an introvert.
Holley Gerth: Oh, I love that. And that's such a great point, that extroverts may be worried about an introvert in their life, and thinking, how can I help this person be happier? And they're actually good. So I love that that gave you insight into your marriage.
Laura Dugger: Yes, that was a shocking and awesome discovery. So the book has helped. You also shared that you battled depression and anxiety. And statistics show that many people do. So what would you say has helped you the most, especially as an introvert?
Holley Gerth: Introverts are actually a little more likely to struggle with depression and anxiety. It's not clear exactly why. But it looks from what they know to be related, again, to those nervous systems and brain pathways that are sort of taking everything in all the time. We're just sort of more responsive in certain ways. [00:33:48] And when we go through hard stuff, that can sort of turn into those things.
So that's part of my story. It has been my whole life. I started having stomach aches as a little 8-year-old in third grade. And they couldn't figure out what was wrong. Eventually, they just said stress, which now we know would be called anxiety. That's what was going on. I found that I needed to release any feeling of shame about having that be part of my story.
So if we think about the core parts of who we are, it's being on a continuum where on one side is a struggle and the other side is a superpower. And who we are kind of just neutrally is in the middle. So, for example, I have a more sensitive nervous system. That means as a struggle, I can deal with anxiety. As a superpower, I have a lot of empathy for other people. I'm really good at reading them, at engaging with their emotions, at understanding what's going on with them. [00:34:56]
And so I had always tried to get rid of my anxiety. But I realized the solution wasn't to do that. It was to learn how to move away from that struggle side and toward the superpower side. The first big step for me was saying, you know what, this is okay that I deal with this. This isn't weakness. It's not a spiritual failure. It's not something that I have to hide from other people or just try to get over. It's just sort of this part of who I am that I can actually use for good in some ways.
And I remember praying about it one day and I felt like God was like, "If you're a warrior standing in the middle of a battlefield and someone is shooting at you, what does that mean?" I was like, "Well, it just means that I'm a warrior." And I felt like He was like, Exactly.
So, for anyone who has these struggles, knowing it just means you're a warrior. It just means there are things that you have to fight sometimes. But it doesn't define your identity. [00:35:57] It doesn't define your destiny. It doesn't mean that you are less qualified to be used by God than anyone else. It actually means that you probably have some related gifts and strengths that he can use.
So, that has been freeing for me to just say, you know what, this is just part of my story. We all have those parts. I'm just going to lean into the parts that lead me towards strength instead of struggle.
Laura Dugger: I want to help people understand a part that's misunderstood with depression and anxiety. When well-intentioned people will throw a scripture passage at you, do not be anxious about tomorrow. And they use it in a difficult way. Are you tracking with me? Do you know what I mean?
Holley Gerth: Yeah.
Laura Dugger: What encouragement or clarity would you like to offer for what is truth and what is actually helpful?
Holley Gerth: Yeah. Well, I recently heard a podcast that talked about the benefits of anxiety. [00:36:57] So, people with anxiety can tend to, like I said, have more empathy, understanding different things. But then I thought, "I'm not allowed to be anxious because the Bible says, don't be anxious." And so, I got curious about what that word actually meant.
And when I looked into the biblical definition of anxiety, it is basically fear that comes from intentionally living independently of God's help. It's not the normal stuff we go through, like doubt or feeling distant from Him, or having struggles. It's not that. It's actually an intentional choice where you say, "No, God, I don't want you in my life. I don't want your help."
I mean, so someone's going to know if they're making that choice. I don't want someone to listen and think, Oh, I've had doubts or I'm in a hard place where I don't feel close to God. That's not what it is either. It's that intentional choice.
So, that is very different than biological anxiety, which is just related to our fight or flight response. We are created with a system that has fight or flight for our survival. [00:38:00] Sometimes it's a little overactive, which means we have biological anxiety. But that is not at all the same as biblical anxiety.
And so when you treat biological anxiety as if it is biblical anxiety, that is what causes the guilt and shame. Because biological anxiety is not even able to just fix itself by hearing a scripture. That's not how it works. We're going to need to talk with our doctor, see a counselor, find other resources, maybe figure out how we need to do practical things like eat and sleep. This is mostly about our bodies.
That's what I would say to people who tend to confuse the two or want to tell people with anxiety, just get over it, that there are two distinct kinds. That this person probably feels anxious even when they are praying. So, it is not biblical anxiety that they're experiencing. They're not violating that command to not be anxious. They are experiencing biological anxiety, which is part of being human sometimes. [00:39:09]
And God gets that because He was one for 33 years. He wants us to say, You know what? I don't like how I'm feeling right now. I'm having a hard time. I mean, you look at Psalms, it's full of that. You know, there's a verse that says, "When anxiety was great within me, you brought consolation to my soul."
And so, knowing that we can take that experience to God and He's not going to condemn us. He's going to say, "I get it because I designed humans and I know sometimes this happens. And I will be with you in it. I've also provided a lot of resources. Again, like doctors and counselors and practical helps and supportive people for you to be able to deal with this." But we don't have to carry shame or guilt over it.
And so, instead just saying to that person who's struggling, you are fighting something hard. I am with you in this battle. What would be most helpful to you right now? That is the kind of support that I think actually makes a difference. [00:40:11]
Laura Dugger: Wow, that is incredibly helpful. Could you just one more time repeat that biblical definition of anxiety?
Holley Gerth: Yeah. So biblical anxiety, when we're told, don't be anxious, that anxiety comes from deliberately saying, I am going to live completely independently from God. I don't want this help. I don't want that connection, which leads to fear. And so, that is more what we're talking about. And that is very different than biological anxiety, which is just our fight or flight response being a little bit overreactive at times.
Laura Dugger: This is incredible to be having this conversation now, because this week, a verse... It's from Deuteronomy 29, and it's just tucked away in the middle of this greater story. But there's someone who is saying unwisely, saying this, I will be safe, even though I persist in going my own way. [00:41:10] But then what happens, it says right after that is, they will bring disaster on the watered land as well as the dry.
To me, it was just speaking of times that I want to stubbornly persist in my own way, be independent, not be dependent on the Lord. I think it kind of ties in because that can be a sin issue when He gently brings that up. That is something that can be repented of that's very different from biological anxiety. So thank you for clarifying.
One other thing that you mentioned was that you started experiencing this around age eight, which we're finding that's about the age where depression and anxiety can set in. Is that right?
Holley Gerth: Yes. Again, they don't know exactly why this is. But I remember sitting at a writer's retreat with a group of very successful women whose names you would recognize who write and speak and have these far-reaching ministries. [00:42:10]
And we started telling stories about when we were little girls and several of us said, At age eight I started dealing with anxiety and depression. And I think there's something about that highly creative, sensitive, empathetic, often introverted wiring that just comes with that vulnerability.
So when I have moms describe a kiddo like that to me and say, what do I do? I say, help them understand this is connected to some of their superpowers. So being anxious means they may deal with fear. It also probably means they know exactly when one of their friends is hurting and they are the first to respond.
So helping them understand those two sides of it. Yes, you have this struggle. We're going to help you figure it out. But look at this other side of it, that because you're created this way, you also have some really amazing strengths. [00:43:10]
And so just keeping them out of that shame cycle where they think something's wrong with me to this is just a part of your story. There's one side to it that can be hard. There's another side to it that can be really powerful and beautiful. And we're just going to get you everything that you need to be able to lean more into that strength side.
Laura Dugger: Over 100 of you have given us a five-star rating online. Thank you. Also, thanks to your help sharing these episodes and reposting our content on social media.
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And in addition to some fun perks, you will be helping to spread our mission, which is this. We exist to invite you to a space to meet with Jesus and be filled to overflowing. [00:44:11] Please consider joining today by visiting TheSavvySauce.com and clicking on our "Patreon" tab.
Like you had alluded to earlier, this entire message is not just for introverts, but for those who love, lead, or share life with them. And so what can you tell extroverts that will strengthen their relationship with introverts?
Holley Gerth: I'd say one thing is when an introvert is being quiet, it means most of the time they're content. And so I think extroverts can worry, Oh, my introvert is being quiet. Maybe they're upset with me. Maybe they're bored. Maybe they need something that I'm not giving them. Usually, it just means they're content. So that's one little insight.
And then I would say a question that works well for both introverts and extroverts is just going to the people in your life and saying, how can I love you well right now? [00:45:10] Because we naturally tend to love others in the ways that make us feel loved.
But if you're an extrovert introvert pair, then there's not going to be a good match up there. And both people involved can be doing everything they possibly can think of to love the other person well. And if they're different, then it may not be coming across in the way you intend.
You know, extroverts may overwhelm introverts unintentionally and introverts may withdraw to give their extrovert space, which ends up feeling like they don't want to be together. You know, there's just so many opportunities for misunderstanding. And so just saying, Okay, I'm going to set aside what I'm assuming about what makes this person feel loved. And I'm just going to ask what would make you feel loved right now, even if it's really different than what you would say.
And then I think also just giving introverts permission to have that alone time that they need. And knowing that it's essential that most introverts I know try to push themselves past their limits because they don't want other people to think that they're being selfish or uncaring. [00:46:22]
So if you can help your introvert get that time guilt-free, then they are going to be a happier, healthier, more engaged person when you are together. And so there may not be as much quantity as time together, but I can guarantee if you help your introvert get that time, the quality of your time together will increase.
Laura Dugger: Because you've written on this, what would you say it means for each of us to live our powerful purpose?
Holley Gerth: I think living our powerful purpose means understanding who God created us to be and then having the courage to live that out. Again, starting with that self-awareness and then listening to what we learn and taking the steps that God puts on our heart to live that out. And so our purpose is unique to us.
And really, our purpose always comes back to loving God first, loving others as ourselves. [00:47:22] We really are called to love. The beautiful thing is we all just do that a little bit differently.
Laura Dugger: Holley, this book has been incredible. This interview has been incredible, and I'm sure others are feeling the same way. So if somebody wants to follow up, where can they find you online and how can they get their hands on this resource of yours?
Holley Gerth: Yes, I would love to connect. If you go to Holleygirth.com/introverts, that's where you will find all the introvert goodies. Like I mentioned, I have a one-minute quiz on there where you can find out what percent introvert you are because everyone has a little introvert in them.
You can also find out how to get the book. And if you preorder it before September 15th, when it releases, you will also get a free course called Seven Ways to Thrive as an Introvert that I am so excited about, an Introvert Strengths Assessment and the audiobook version of The Powerful Purpose of Introverts Free. [00:48:24]
I think that's an amazing deal. So I'm trying to get everybody to go take advantage of that so they can have it before the book comes out.
Laura Dugger: Wow, those are some incredible perks. And I hope everybody can take advantage of it today. Again, thank you for that resource.
I just have one final question for you. We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. And so as my final question for you today, Holley, what is your savvy sauce?
Holley Gerth: One super practical thing I'm loving right now is my weighted blanket. So weighted blankets are what they sound like. They have weight and they are naturally calming to our nervous systems and our bodies. So I think especially introverts, but also extroverts with all the things going on in our world right now, a weighted blanket is a great investment. I sleep with mine. I sometimes use it just hanging out on the couch. [00:49:23] But if we can help our bodies in practical ways like that, I think it helps empower us to do the things that matter most to us.
Laura Dugger: That is an awesome savvy sauce. I have heard about weighted blankets, never experienced one before. But when I looked online, there were so many options. If somebody wants to try it out today, do you have a recommended brand or type?
Holley Gerth: I would search for, like if you're on Amazon, Sherpa weighted blanket. So that means it's super soft material. I like that too. So that's my favorite kind. They're really pretty also. That also happens to help you have less anxiety and stress and calm down, which I think in the midst of everything in our world right now, we all need whatever will help with that.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's incredible. Like I said, we'll link to all of this in the show notes and our resources tab. Holley, you've just given such a lovely taste of what your book has to offer. [00:50:26] And I think that you've really encouraged us to embrace who God created each of us uniquely to be. You are genuine and skilled and just this delightful mix of confident and humble. And I'm very appreciative of your time today. So thank you for being my guest.
Holley Gerth: Thank you for having me, Laura.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:51:33]
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:52:38]
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:53:39]
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
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