108 Anatomy of an Affair with Dave Carder

*This message includes adult themes and is not intended for little ears*

 

108. Anatomy of an Affair with Dave Carder

 

**Transcription Below**

 

Hebrews 10:23 (NIV) “Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.” 

 

Dave Carder serves as Pastor of Counseling Ministries at First Evangelical Free Church of Fullerton, CA.

 

His specialty is Adultery Recovery and Prevention for which he has appeared on numerous media outlets including The Oprah Winfrey Network, Discovery Health, and The Learning Channel, The Tony Robbins Passion Project, Ladies Home Journal, USA Today, The Counseling Connection, and various other magazines and journals. He has taught at various universities and seminaries world wide, and has done training for both the US Navy and Army.

 

He is the author or co-author of Torn Asunder: Recovering from an Extramarital Affair, Close Calls: What Adulterers Want You to Know About Protecting Your Marriage, and Unlocking Your Family Patterns: Finding Freedom from a Hurtful Past. He holds the Michigan Limited License for Psychology and the California Marital and Family Therapy license, and has graduate degrees in Biblical Literature and Counseling Psychology.

 

Dave and his wife, Ronnie, have been married for 49 years, and have four adult children and eight grandchildren. More info is available at www.DaveCarder.com

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. 

 

Anatomy of an Affair by Dave Carder

Torn Asunder by Dave Carder

Torn Asunder Workbook by Dave Carder

Close Calls by Dave Carder

Schedule an appointment with Dave Carder HERE

Dave Carder’s Website, Including FREE video series on recovering from extramarital affair

 

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

**Transcription**

 

[00:00:00] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

[00:00:17] <music>

 

Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.

 

The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick in Eureka. Owned and operated by the Bertschi family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over Central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at Lemangm.com. 

 

Dave Carter is a pastor, author, and therapist. He's also the best professional I can think of to educate us on infidelity.

 

Dave is going to share his years of research with us, as he's going to let us know some shocking reasons why couples cheat. But more importantly, he's going to share how redemption is possible. [00:01:18] 

 

Here's our chat.

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Dave.

 

Dave Carder: Well, I'm looking forward to this. I always enjoy these kind of things.

 

Laura Dugger: You have spent your career educating and counseling couples on marital unfaithfulness. So I'm curious, how did God use your past pain to become your purpose?

 

Dave Carder: Well, it's a great story. At least on this end of it, it's a great story. So back when I was a youth pastor in the late 70s, pretty fresh out of seminary, my senior pastor ran off with another woman in the church. 

 

This was the second time this has happened to me. I'd only worked with three pastors. So this time I responded a little differently. I immediately drove to the nearest airport, bought a ticket, basically, to a Dallas-Fort Worth area that I had figured out where he had gone, and confronted him. 

 

Stayed a week in a hotel overlooking the U-Haul truck store where he was supposed to bring back the truck, and he never showed up. [00:02:22] I got a call on Saturday from the church back in Ohio saying, "You've got to get home. This place is in a mess," etc. 

 

So basically, I figured out what had happened was I had beat him to that location several thousand miles down there. But before I left, I went down and talked to the guy at the U-Haul truck store and showed him a picture of my pastor, and wrote my phone number and name on the back. And I said, "He's going to bring the truck back here. So when he does, please call me and get an address. I don't care what you tell him, just get an address." 

 

So on Monday morning, back in Ohio, after I'd flown home, I got a phone call from him about 10 o'clock, and he starts whispering. He says, "He's in my office." And I said, "Well, how do you know it's him?" He said, "He's got on the same shirt in the picture as he has on in my office. I know it's him." I said, "I know he's desperate for money. So you tell him you're going to give him a rebate. You need an address to mail the rebate to."

 

Sure enough, he calls me back about 10 minutes, has an address. I get back on the plane, take a friend with me, fly back to Dallas-Fort Worth, get a rental car, drive the house, knock on the front door, and the single mom in whose home apartment I'd been having Bible studies for two years, for all the boys in the apartment complex, answers the door and screams. [00:03:35] 

 

So to make a long story short, we took our senior pastor, me in the front, to the park and tried to persuade him to come back to his family. He said, "No, he wasn't going to do that." Took him home, back to the house there they were renting, prayed with him. 

 

I started sobbing when my friend said, "Dave, lead us in prayer. I just started sobbing." My friend had to drive us back to the airport, and I cried the whole way there. As we turned into the Hertz rental car, I looked over at my friend Paul, and I said, "Paul, when I get home, I'm going back to graduate school, and I'm going to figure out why guys do this. Because I've had two experiences in a very brief ministry career." That was in '77, and I've been working ever since at trying to figure this out.

 

Laura Dugger: Wow, that's incredible. I mean, tragic circumstances to start with, but it sounds like God's really redoing it in your life.

 

Dave Carder: I would never have chosen to be a therapist or a counselor. [00:04:35] 

 

Laura Dugger: Well, I'd love to focus on your most recent book titled Anatomy of an Affair. I want to begin by this quote of yours, where you say, "My hope is this book will motivate couples to be more alert to potential marital disaster, understand the warning signs of an affair, and help couples strengthen the marriage bond that has kept them together." 

 

So let's discuss each of those components, beginning with being more alert to potential marital disaster. Why do you recommend couples never say this could never happen to them?

 

Dave Carder: Well, you know, Laura, this is not normal behavior, but it is extremely common behavior. So what happens, especially in the Christian community, when this does occur, it shocks most of the participants. They never believed this could have happened. They never would have. They never would have planned for it. It came out of the blue. [00:05:35] 

 

You know, I was in a research team for a number of years, and we surveyed 4,000 pastors, and the language they used to describe their inappropriate behavior was blindsided, bushwhacked, had the rug pulled out from underneath me, never saw it coming, etc. 

 

So that tells us that there is some kind of a subversive, under-awareness, development, inclination towards having an affair. And you have to be honest, straightforward, forthright, and very self-aware if you're going to protect yourself in this culture.

 

Actually, the coronavirus experience we're having right now is the perfect petri dish in which affairs can develop. First-time affairs, and I would say all of them, are all about comfort and distraction. Well, I want to tell you, we know additional new stressors in a marriage, like financial reversals, environmental changes, health changes, relationship changes, major career changes. [00:06:36] All of those contribute to the need for comfort and distraction.

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. So you're saying circumstances like this where couples are under extreme stress, is that when they're likely to cheat?

 

Dave Carder: Oh yeah, very much so. They don't go looking for this kind of relief, but this is a perfect firestorm, so to speak, because they both need comfort. And oftentimes, during high-stress experiences in a marriage, one runs out of gas to care for the other, or needs to go back to work to keep them afloat, or just needs longer to process what they've been going through.

 

We don't all process everything at the same speed. So that difference is often in the time period, in the time frame, when these kinds of behaviors begin to happen.

 

Laura Dugger: Are there any other common reasons that couples do cheat?

 

Dave Carder: Oh yeah, oh yeah. We know, for instance, that there are certain high-risk periods in your life, in everybody's life, when they are more inclined. [00:07:42] Now, these risk factors I'm going to talk about, they don't make anybody do anything like this. But the big question for the spouse who's been betrayed is, why did you do this? 

 

Well, the answer to that question, why, is usually a cluster of circumstances that eroded the other person's boundaries and made them more vulnerable. It didn't make them do it, it just made them more vulnerable. 

 

So we look for that cluster of circumstances. For instance, about 50% of all first-time affairs in America happen during pregnancy or the first year after delivery. Now, why in the heck is that true?

 

Well, as you begin to think about it, it makes all the sense in the world. The wife's body changes, there's hormonal changes, she's more tired, she might have a lot of nausea in the first trimester, maybe isn't very interested in sexual activity and lovemaking. Then she's got this little baby afterwards, she's sleep-deprived, and she's trying to balance this baby and maybe a career. [00:08:43] 

 

Hubby can oftentimes feel very neglected. That doesn't mean he went looking, I just said he was more vulnerable to somebody looking for him.

 

Laura Dugger: With all of your research, just a few follow-up questions. Do you still find that that's true today, that it's more commonly the male spouse, or are those numbers evening out between males and females?

 

Dave Carder: Basically, depending on what research study and frequency study you're reading, somewhere around 60% to 67% of all males acknowledge this, and somewhere between 50% and 55% of all females in America acknowledge getting involved in this.

 

Laura Dugger: Then also, just because at the beginning you had talked about seeing this twice in ministry, do you see this vulnerability where people are more susceptible when they are in ministry, or especially in a head pastoral role?

 

Dave Carder: Well, what I would say I see more of today is when two people in ministry share the same ministry, and they're not married to each other. [00:09:48] So let's just say they serve on the worship team together, or they serve in children's ministry, or the two of them work in homeless encampments, or they do this or that together. So anytime you share a ministry with another person, you share a heart passion that you and your spouse might not share.

 

Now, that doesn't mean you shouldn't do ministry outside of your relationship with your spouse, but it does mean that if you're in a ministry that you are really passionate about with somebody else other than your spouse, you really have to be on guard.

 

Laura Dugger: You give such a balanced approach, because also what I hear you saying is not, if you're in ministry, this will happen to you. You're just sharing what some high-risk times or situations would be. Also, are there any high-risk behaviors that make couples more vulnerable to an affair? 

 

Dave Carder: Oh, absolutely. Part of who we are and part of what happened to us when we first started dating, I just tell you this, this is such a kick. [00:10:52] One of my best friends and colleagues, he's my age, and he just got remarried this last week, okay, to another very good friend of mine.

 

Now, we're talking people in the high-risk category for coronavirus. I mean, they're above 65, both of them. But they were acting like giddy teenagers whenever they were together. I just got the biggest kick out of it. 

 

Now, that kind of infatuation is what happens when we first start dating and maybe the first couple of years of marriage, etc. But life wears that out and drains that off.

 

So we often yearn for those kind of times when we have a mood alteration, when we see the person or we can't wait to be with them or we want to get out of this functioning role we have where we try to be efficient and effective. You know, falling in love is totally contrary to being efficient and effective. And it's that kind of stuff you have to go back to. [00:11:52] 

 

But, you know, the good thing... we know, for instance, that one of the risk categories is to get in touch with an old girlfriend or boyfriend. It's huge on Facebook. I mean, it has developed its own class of infidelity. But the point is that kind of affair tells us that it's good news for us who haven't been involved in it but who had a great dating period with their spouse and in the first couple of years it just were dynamic or the first four or five before the kids came. 

 

Because those feelings, those feelings you had for your spouse when you were sleeping together after being newly married, those feelings are still in your brain and you got to go find them. One of my goals in working with every one of my couples is I'm going to help you find that infatuation that you've lost. If you had it, we'll find it. It's still stored in your brain. 

 

Laura Dugger: Let's camp there for a little while. What would the process look like? [00:12:53] How do you help these couples go back to that part in their brain?

 

Dave Carder: Well, you don't start there because there's been a lot of betrayal and pain in the process. We try to answer the why question through the first half of the therapy process, which includes biographical things. 

 

Now, one of the things I always say, affairs are always about attachment and all affairs began in infancy because infancy is all about attachment to a bonding, to a mother, a primary caregiver.

 

So we always look at attachment issues in childhood and to primary parents and the nuclear family and the security and everything else in the family because many times affairs go way back. They actually started, the seeds of destruction were sown when they were just a kid. 

 

And then we have to go through the family of origin dynamic and we have to explore the structure that they build into the marriage and the marital style. [00:13:57] We look at the type of marriage because some marriages are more prone to infidelity than others. 

 

Then we look at the satisfaction history. Satisfaction history is one of four histories that are really important to understand about this couple. High level satisfaction, marriages with high level satisfaction can have an affair, but that's the exception and not the normal expectation. 

 

So we look at all those things first and then we go through a full disclosure and a forgiveness process. That's really kind of stage two. Then stage three, we start the reattachment process. Can we put this couple back together well? 

 

And it's at that process that we begin to explore your good history, eight great experiences, kind of reviewing how each of you felt about the beginning of the relationship. Maybe you were missing some of that, being the focus of each other, that narcissistic, egocentric I can't get enough of you feeling that we have when we're newly dating or newly married. [00:15:03] So if that was ever there, we'll find it.

 

Laura Dugger: How long would you say this process takes from maybe the first time they're walking in and they've just found out about the affair to get to this level of the process that you just explained?

 

Dave Carder: Well, if this is a first-time affair and it's in one of those categories other than category three, which is a hidden sexual addiction, that's what happens there is going to require more treatment. But at class one, two, four, or five, basically if there's a good history, and we say you don't have to have a lot of good history, but if 20% of your marital history is rated highly satisfying by both of you, simultaneous, in the same time zone and contiguous, it doesn't have any downturns in it, it's pretty high, straight through, 20%. That means one year for every five you will have 92% chance of saving this marriage. [00:16:03] 

 

So you have to see if you can find that and start talking about it and have them sit and share and you got to build skills. So basically I see couples 12 to 15 times, one hour a week, full hour. I tell them, Each one of you are going to give one hour a week to this relationship too. 

 

The wife is going to do an hour's worth of talking exercises with the husband listening, and the husband is going to do an hour worth of work talking exercises with the wife listening. And you're going to do that at home in three 20-minute segments. That way each of you will give an hour and I'll give an hour. 

 

And I'm not going to do this if you don't do it. This is your marriage. I got my own marriage to worry about. I don't need yours to worry about. So you need to put an equal amount of effort in. We put three hours a week in it, 45 hours later we usually have a pretty good outcome.

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. You're such an expert in all of this that I have to slow it down and go back. There's so many follow-up questions.

 

Dave Carder: I can talk a lot about this.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, and I find it to be fascinating. [00:17:04] You had mentioned that certain couples are maybe more predisposed to cheat. I can't remember how you worded it, but what type of couples do you mean?

 

Dave Carder: Well, there's all kinds of factors in there, but I'll give you a couple. For instance, we know there's personality disorders that are based on attachment injuries, like a borderline personality or a narcissistic personality disorder. Those kinds of people are going to have to work through some individual issues if they're ever really going to save this marriage, turn it around, and make it good.

 

We have people, especially today, they come in, men and women, who are involved in pornography use and have been exposed to it since a child. Or they're adults who have a molest history that they've never really identified. There's this sexual compulsivity.

 

Sometimes it's just suddenly surfaced again. Sometimes it's comorbid with alcoholism or prescription drug use or pot smoking. [00:18:06] So those kinds of other struggles don't really give a clean presentation. I mean, there's going to be some individual work required.

 

Laura Dugger: Okay, and then you had also mentioned a type three affair. So what are all of the categories of affairs?

 

Dave Carder: Okay, we often talk about a one-night stand. The single experience or maybe the single weekend experience takes place at a conference or maybe at a business training meeting or something of that nature. 

 

Well, let me give you an illustration. The first four classes of sexual betrayal are all found in the Bible. That's what I love about the Bible. The Bible is really a great tutorial on human nature. 

 

So the biblical illustration there is David and Bathsheba. They had no relationship. They'd never dated. They'd never seen each other, never talked before. There was just this sexual experience and that was it. That's kind of what happens in that. [00:19:06] Alcohol is often a part of that. People drink too much wine at a supper meal and go to each other's rooms and get in trouble. 

 

The class two is where there's emotional involvement. They have been friends for a long period of time. They might be colleagues at work. So they work together, serve together. You know, the literature often talks about the workaday wife. She often knows more about this man's life and his practices and his skill set than the wife does. So this friendship can develop over years and be in existence for many years prior to it ever being sexual. So we even have biblical illustrations of that kind of stuff. 

 

But class three has nothing to do with the marriage. In other words, the spouse who acted out sexually would have done this no matter who they married. This is not about the marriage. This is about an individual issue. And so we say that person needs to develop sobriety and they need to have some individual therapy, figuring out the contributing factors to this. [00:20:10] 

 

I will often say to my guys, "You know, as we begin to talk about this and we talk about earliest sexual exposure and memories and fantasies... and I don't do the individual work much at all. I usually try to send them somewhere else because I don't want to work harder than I'm already working with couples, more couples. 

 

So they often will go to an intensive or something like that and they'll figure out this is all about me. I've been doing this for 20 years. I often say to him, you know, you never really had a chance. And I asked him if they have a son, if they've ever had a son or they have a grandson. So your grandson's five years old. 

 

Okay, well, next time you will see your little grandson playing somewhere in a playground with other kids, you go watch him. You go watch him and think about that little boy being exposed to sexual activity. That little boy sitting at the base of his mother's hotel bed while she turns tricks right there above him. [00:21:11] Or you watch him and think about him sitting in front of pornography that he's found in the bathroom.

 

Sometimes those little kids just don't have much chance. And sex becomes the source of comfort. But it's compulsive. And it's not about the wife. It's not about the wife being a better lover. It's not about her being more sexual. It's not about her initiating. It's not about her. She didn't cause it, can't change it, and she won't cure it no matter what she does. So that's class three. 

 

Class four is what we call an add-on affair. An add-on affair happens in good marriages. But it meets a singular need that this individual has that can't or hasn't been met in the marriage. Now, I'm going to give you an illustration here in just a second of that. But many times it is a cluster of circumstances and timeframes and health issues and relationship changes and job demands and everything else. [00:22:20] 

 

It kind of brings this marriage down, so to speak. It's an add-on affair. But it's not a relationship in the sense of sneaking off with each other, phone calling, texting each other all the time, buying gifts, going to lunch together.

 

This add-on affair has very narrow practices. They only see each other in the shared environment that they both enjoy. They never call during the week. They never check in. They might see each other once a month at a volleyball thing. 

 

For instance, I'm not a dancer. My wife loves to dance. But one thing I'm not going to do, I'm not going to encourage her to go to a dance club. And we took dance lessons on cruises. I mean, maybe eight or ten cruises. And it got to a place where it was ruining my cruise. I'd get sick at this. I just can't do this. So I dread going.

 

That would be the kind of illustration. She'd get involved, maybe dancing with somebody, dance partner, etc. [00:23:21] Over time, they build this relationship, practicing dance, etc, and pretty soon, it becomes inappropriate. So that's an illustration of that. 

 

The last class is an emotional friendship with old girlfriends or boyfriends. That only became available in 1995. So when you go back on the internet and find them. The thing about that, it's important to remember, we never, ever forget.

 

Adolescent music, sports teams, great experiences in high school and college, dances. In fact, unless you were promiscuous, most of us could list every person we ever kissed really passionately. You don't forget. And so this gets triggered in your brain. All that infatuation is stored in your brain. And it'll get triggered. 

 

I have this saying we say all the time. [00:24:21] If you stay in touch with an old girlfriend or boyfriend for 30 days via the internet, you will begin to think you married the wrong person because your spouse doesn't make you feel like this. And if you stay in touch with them another 30 days, you'll begin to try to find ways to meet with them and have sex with them. It's 0 to 60.

 

Laura Dugger: Wow. So that shows the danger so clearly. And now a brief message from our sponsor.

 

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Learn more at their website, or visit them on Facebook by searching for Sam Leman Eureka. You can also call them at (309) 467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship. You said that there are Bible stories that illustrate different ones. David and Bathsheba. What are some other examples?

 

Dave Carder: Well, the sexual addiction one is Eli's sons. [00:26:21] They chose women out of the line to the temple where they're going to offer sacrifice. They took them into another tent, had sex with them, and turned them over. There was no relationship. 

 

And God told Eli, He said, "You've got to stop those boys from doing that." And he wouldn't. So God killed the two sons, and God killed Eli prematurely. Then I was at a pastor's conference presenting how good marriages... this add-on concept, where good marriages can have infidelity. I said, "I don't have a biblical illustration of this." 

 

One of the pastors, four or five hundred of them in South Florida said, "How about Hagar and Abraham?" That met a need. Abraham built a great relationship with her to the point that he would not kick her out of the home until God actually intervened. But when little Isaac was born, his 13-year-old half-brother knew at that point life forever was different for him. 

 

And he started picking on his little baby brother of a day or two. Sarah saw it and said, "It's either her or me. Get her out of here." [00:27:24] So Abraham finally did. And those two brothers, half-brothers, had been fighting, and they're since fighting for 4,000 years. And they will keep fighting. They just will. 

 

See, I think I left one of them out. Class two is Samson and Delilah. They never had sex, as far as we know. But the picture we have of him in Scripture is his head is in her lap. But he is so addicted to her, that even though he knows she's trying to kill him, he cannot stay away from her. And he keeps going back to her. And that's the class two, the strong emotional attachment.

 

Laura Dugger: That's incredible to hear it, even in biblical times. What other satisfaction ratings are important?

 

Dave Carder: Well, there's four histories. We need to know their personal biographical story in somewhat detail. Looking for abuse, which would create an elevated need for comfort and demand, and distraction. We want to look at their family of origin history. [00:28:29] 

 

We don't know why, but infidelity runs in family trees. It is a strong indicator that you are very vulnerable. I don't care anything about you being a Christian or anything else. If your dad or mom had affairs, you are predisposed. There's all kinds of emotional reasons for that, if we had time to explore.

 

Then the third one is their satisfaction history together, which is kind of how happy we were. 

 

Then the fourth component that we want to look at is, what does their marriage over time look like? We're not talking about satisfaction, but we're talking about time together. Have they been able to put each other first? Have they been able to teach their kids that your mom or your dad is more important than you are in a certain sense of the word? You're going to leave here in 20 years, but we're going to hang out for the next 60. [00:29:26] So we've got to make this thing work. 

 

I mean, has that been the emphasis? And what has been that attachment level that they put together between the two of them? So those histories are all real important.

 

Laura Dugger: If you've been around The Savvy Sauce for a while, you have heard our invitation to join our support team of patrons. Patreon is a platform created for the community to financially support people who offer creative content. 

 

Our team gladly spends a lot of time and money to produce episodes that we're excited to share. But the reality is, this is an expensive endeavor. We would be so grateful if you would think about what role you could play to support us. 

 

It's super easy to join with only a few clicks. As you visit thesavvysauce.com, click the "Patreon" tab, and then click "Join Patron here". We hope you're rewarded for your generosity. Now that we've covered a lot of the dangers and high-risk opportunities, on the other side, what safeguards should be put in place to protect our marriages from inappropriate relationships? [00:30:35] 

 

Dave Carder: Well, this is a hard thing. Let me kind of identify a few of those. When we get ready to try to reattach couples, this is the process we go through.

 

The first exercise in that process is a whole series of sensate focus exercises. I often say to my couples, we're going to put you back together exactly like you found each other and put together yourselves in the first place, okay? So I'll often say to the wife, Let's say it's Betty and Tom. I'm just making that up. So I say, "Betty, if Tom had grabbed your breast on the first date, you probably never would have seen him again." "Oh, yeah, I never would have seen him again."

 

"But over time, you started holding hands and you started snuggling up together. He put his arm around your shoulders. You might even, as you walked the boardwalk, stuck your hand in his back pocket as you walked down the boardwalk. You became more familiar with each other physically and you became more familiar with each other emotionally, sharing stories, information you never shared with anybody else."  [00:31:38] Well, that's a very important set of exercises. 

 

Masters and Johnson and Kaplan and Berkeley Sex Therapy Group have all given us a lot of touching exercises that build attachment. They're called sensate focus exercises. My couples have to do about 30 days of those while they're doing other exercises, 20 minutes a pop. 

 

In the book, the Berkeley Sex Therapy script list that I use, with their permission, that helps you kind of qualify the kind of touching exercises you're doing together. I mean, this is work, okay? But it's also a lot of fun because sensate focus exercises calm anxiety, lower anger, and build attachment, all simultaneous. 

 

So, the next set of exercises is the one you're going to identify the eight great experiences in your relationship, the eight great memories. You have eight best memories you have during the dating period and even in the marriage. [00:32:41] Each one of you lists a private list of eight items. Do it in pencil because you'll be erasing them. You only get eight.

 

And then you merge that list of most happily married couples. And remember, couples have some level of satisfaction and happiness or they wouldn't come to a therapist after an affair has happened. They have some hope in saving this. 

 

So, we take a look at those eight greats and the ones that match, we put those down first and then she gets... let's say they have three. She gets four, he gets five, six, seven, eight, finish it off. 

 

That list of eight shared experiences needs to be replicated, repeated, same season of the year, same event, same experience as much as possible as the original. This is the best old stuff you have between the two of them. So, we build that eight greats. 

 

The next one is love languages. Most people are familiar with love languages. Finding out how best to show love to your spouse. [00:33:42] 

 

Then the fourth reattachment exercise is what we call a compliment prayer list that comes directly out of research. Two behavioral psychologists, PhD husband, and wife team spent 30 years on this exercise measuring it across cultures, genders, ages. It's highly effective. And it's a behavior modification process. 

 

So, I added a prayer exercise to it. And so, every day for 30 days, you find something you appreciate about your spouse, a behavior, a comment, something they do, how they look, a value they have. I don't care what it is. And you put it down and then you list two or three sentences about why you like that and why it's important to you. And you write it in a notebook. And every night, you thank God in your spouse's presence how much you like this quality about your spouse and what it means to you. You do 30 straight days. [00:34:40] 

 

That behavior modification couple that did this work, they did pre, post, six-month, and five-year follow-ups. This is an amazing game-changer. Most of us are starved for more admiration and affirmation. And that's what this provides. So, those are the first four. I could go on and on.

 

Laura Dugger: That's incredible. It's not only practical, but you're talking about inviting in the power of God and the Holy Spirit into this. I can just imagine hearts being softened and couples turning toward each other in this process.

 

Dave Carder: That's a good point because you got to remember this couple has already done at least 20 knee-to-knee exercises for 20 minutes a pop. One talking, the other listening. They've also already done 20 non-sexual touching exercises where one gives and the other receives for 20 minutes. [00:35:41] 

 

So, many therapists get in trouble because they try to do these attachment exercises before they've done all the other work. You don't start there. That's the end. That's the icing on the cake, so to speak.

 

Laura Dugger: Backing it up a little bit, for any couples wondering, what are some warning signs that there may be marital unfaithfulness in our spouse?

 

Dave Carder: Well, the first thing I would look for, and this is what I tell my gals or guys that call me on the phone afraid their spouse is having an affair. Okay, so when were you first afraid? So, they choose a point in time, a date, and time.

 

I say, "Okay, you go back two years, and you find all the major stressors. I want you to make a list of all the major stressors that your spouse has gone through in those two years period." Financial reversals, maybe a death or two, maybe a move that you went through, a career job or threatening experience, a financial reversal, bankruptcy, lost a house. [00:36:42] 

 

Just make a list of all the stressors. And if you come up with more than five, then you probably have a legitimate concern because all of us going through those kinds of things need comfort and distraction. And it's just so easy to listen to or learn to lean on somebody else when you're feeling that huge need yourself. That's a big part. So, what kind of story are they bringing to this concern? That's a big part of what I want to know.

 

Then also, the person will often begin to have motivation for all kinds of changes. They'll start working out or they'll start dressing differently or they'll start doing their hair differently. You'll just see behavioral changes. You'll sense a greater change in energy sometimes in people doing this. 

 

Now, if your spouse really decides to whip themselves into shape, don't be accusing them of having a girlfriend or a boyfriend. That gets you into trouble, okay? [00:37:46] You might just sense a kind of a distraction. Maybe they're on the phone more than usual. Maybe they're texting more commonly. 

 

This texting thing is amazing. Habitual texting is a mood-altering experience. I've had clients who've actually been fired from jobs not because they had any erotic textual exchange but because they had too much textual exchange with co-workers and it was happening while they were driving and it began to interfere with their production, so they got fired. So, any kind of a mood-altering experience like that can be very dangerous. 

 

And then I say to my gals, especially the young moms, if you really suspect that your husband's having an affair, you get two choices. You choose which one you want. If you would do something different, if you knew he was having an affair, then you ought to pursue it with everything you have, including hiring a private investigator. [00:38:50] 

 

If, on the other hand, you could not do anything different than you're doing now because you might have a little baby, you might have small children at home, you might not have a career that you could fall back upon, you couldn't do anything, then I would tell you don't do anything. Because most affairs flame out in 18 to 24 months.

 

Nobody can keep up that kind of passionate exchange without having all kinds of emotional and financial and personal upheaval in their life. They just can't do it.

 

Laura Dugger: And so you're saying eventually...

 

Dave Carder: Yeah. Use the next few months to get yourself ready to leave if you need to leave. So, if you can't do anything... And that happens all the time when some gals, they just can't think of a little baby, they don't have parental support, maybe they don't have any family out here, maybe they don't have a career, they don't work right now, they're a stay-at-home mom with two or three little ones. Okay, get yourself ready. Don't do anything right now. [00:39:52] 

 

Laura Dugger: Then for the couple that maybe is walking through this painful process currently, what hope would you like to offer them?

 

Dave Carder: I would say this to them. Don't stay married out of duty or obligation. I would say to the husband, if he's had the affair, don't stay married to her if she can't forgive you. Living with a spouse who can't forgive is like pretty hellacious living. 

 

So what needs to happen, if you're going to stay together, you need to re-choose each other. And you need to be with each other because you want to be with each other. Sex breaks a marriage. Illicit sex does. And there's never a statute of limitations on when, as I look at the wife, you'll have to decide. You don't have to decide in 90 days. But there's no statute of limitations. Maybe two years here, after giving this your best shot, it still can't seem to work or you just don't think your spouse is being truthful and they're still lying, well, then maybe then you need to consider another option. [00:40:55] 

 

But I say to both of my couples. You need to give this your best shot because you need to look in your children's eyes when they're at their life's greatest moments, graduations, marriages, birth of your grandkids, etc. and you need to be able to look at them in the eye and say, "We gave it everything we had before we leave." 

 

But if you stay married out of duty or obligation or stay married because you think you should, you should pay for this, etc., all you're going to do is teach your kids how to have a really crappy marriage. And we got a lot of those running around.

 

Laura Dugger: Dave, let's address all of the couples, both those who have or have not experienced an affair. How can everyone listening strengthen their marriage bond?

 

Dave Carder: The best marriages are the ones who practice the kind of practices that you would practice if you were having an affair. So you would see each other at different times of the day. [00:41:57] You would spend money on your marriage and you would go do things that you normally wouldn't do.

 

You would leave your kids at times with a very clear instruction that mom and dad need time like this together. You would show affection to each other in front of your children. People having an affair don't give a rip who's around them. They're easy to find. I used to take MFTs to Starbucks and we'd try and figure out who was having an affair at Starbucks. I mean, they're easy to find.

 

So you need to do all the things that people look for when they're having an affair. And we often say you have to redeem those bad experiences, redeem them, and practice them in your relationship. Most couples, most married couples, the sexual relationship happens in the dark, lights out, doors locked, after the kids are asleep, between the sheets, same way all the time. [00:42:56] 

 

But if you started meeting at a hotel once or twice a week in an afternoon for a lunch and a couple of hours together in the room, I want to tell you, you would have a much better life together. And don't tell me this: "We don't have the money for that kind of thing. I have never heard anybody say, "I'm not going to keep the affair going. I ran out of money. They never ran out of money keeping the affair going. So you'll have money for that if you want to.

 

Laura Dugger: Wow, you have given us so much to think about. If listeners want to follow up online or make an appointment with you, if that's possible, or even look into your resources, where would you direct them?

 

Dave Carder: Well, they can make an appointment, they can go to davecarder.com and they can book an appointment. If they are struggling with something like this, they can go to restoreus.net. I've put most of this, the work I do with couples in a 15... I think it's 15 set video that you can do in the privacy of your own home if you want to. [00:44:04] Same stuff I do with my couples. I'm happy to help any way I can. I love doing this work.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, and in case it's someone's first time listening, we always link to all of these resources in both our show notes and on our "Resources" tab of the website. So we'll make it easy for you to find Dave and his resources. 

 

We are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so as my final question for you today, Dave, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Dave Carder: If I had one thing to say to couples in this day and age, I would say spend money on your marriage. My wife and I made a goal. We drove old cars so we could build expensive memories. And we did. And at this stage of our life, we are thrilled that we did this. We have spent money on this relationship in unbelievable ways. [00:45:06] 

 

Laura Dugger: That is such a wise word. As a therapist, I remember learning about your resources back in graduate school. And then a few years after graduate school, I was able to sit under your teaching live in San Diego. And now it was such a joy to get to learn more from you again today. So you are a natural teacher and I'm very grateful for you and your contribution to marriages. So thank you for being my guest today.

 

Dave Carder: Well, it's my privilege. We can get the word out. Marriage is still alive and wonderful. And it does fulfill your deepest need for attachment to another human being. But you have to work at it. It's not spontaneous and it doesn't always stay together without attention.

 

Laura Dugger: Amen. 

 

One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. [00:46:07] Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

 

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. 

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. [00:47:10] Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 

 

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. 

 

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him. 

 

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. [00:48:09] The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John. 

 

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. 

 

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time. [00:49:10]