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Special Patreon Release: Theology and Discipleship with Ken Baugh
Colossians 3:1 (NIV) Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
- Will you elaborate about God's design for vertical and horizontal relationships?
- How does character development take place?
- What do you think is the primary challenge for those pursuing discipleship in today’s culture?
Ken Baugh was a successful pastor before a crippling experience of burnout disrupted his career and set him on a journey to better understand the dynamics of spiritual health. With a DMin from Talbot Theological Seminary, Ken is the founder and CEO of IDT Ministries.
IDT Ministries Discipleship Website
Pastor Ken Baugh's YouTube Channel
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Unhindered Abundance by Ken Baugh
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
Monday Nov 11, 2024
Monday Nov 11, 2024
246. Stories of God's Tangible Love with Jen Moore
Isaiah 7:10-11 MSG "God spoke again to Ahaz. This time he said, "Ask for a sign from your GOD. Ask anything. Be extravagant. Ask for the moon!"
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
-
Will you walk us through your love story and experience becoming a mother to so many daughters?
-
Did you have any warnings that things were about to drastically change?
-
What unexpected event happened next?
Jen Moore is a beloved daughter of God, wife, and homeschooling mom. God wrote her story in ways she did not expect, but she worships Him through every chapter He continues to write.
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
Monday Nov 04, 2024
Monday Nov 04, 2024
Matthew 18:3 (NIV) "And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
-
You have experienced some special miracle stories of God's provision in your life. Will you take us back to your childhood and share some of your early experiences with God?
-
What were significant ways God showed up in your teenage and young adult years?
-
How have you preserved these stories and passed them along to the next generation?
Dr. Rob Rienow married Amy in 1994 and they have been blessed with 7 children. His most important ministry is loving his wife and leading his children to know God and love Him. Rob’s mom came to Christ shortly after he was born so he was blessed to be introduced to Jesus at an early age. His parents divorced when he was in high school and God used that painful time in his life to give him a heart for young people and families going through dark times. He attended Wheaton College, then completed an MA in theology at Wheaton College Graduate School, an MDiv from Trinity International Divinity School, and a Doctor of Ministry in Christian Leadership from Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary.
Rob’s life dramatically changed in 2004. God brought him to a place of deep repentance over the fact that he was disciplining other people’s children, but not his own. He was a spiritual leader at church, but passive with his family. Through that time of repentance, God turned his heart to the ministry of his children and his wife. God then led He and Amy to launch Visionary Family Ministries, a ministry designed to inspire parents and grandparents to disciple their children, to help couples create mission driven-marriages, and equip churches to build Bible-driven ministries. Their mission is to build the church through a global reformation of family discipleship.
He shares the biblical message of family discipleship at national and international conferences for parents, couples, and church leaders. He partners and consults with numerous churches, encouraging them to accelerate evangelism and discipleship through families.
Continue Learning from Dr. Rob Rienow:
Books and Resources by Dr. Rob Rienow
Other Episodes on The Savvy Sauce with Dr. Rob Rienow:
87 Visionary Parenting and Grand-Parenting with Dr. Rob Rienow
Special Patreon Release: Discipline that Disciples with Dr. Rob Rienow
230 Intentional Parenting in All Stages with Dr. Rob Rienow
Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage
Connect with The Savvy Sauce through our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
Monday Oct 28, 2024
Monday Oct 28, 2024
244. Stories Series: Medical Marvels with Carolyn Henricks
2 Corinthians 4:17-18 (NIV) "For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal."
**Transcription Below**
Carolyn Henricks is married to Gary, mother to four married adult children, and grandmother to ten. She retired from her career as Pediatric Quality Coordinator at OSF St. Francis and now spends time volunteering in various capacities.
Questions We Discuss:
-
What was it that drew you to a saving faith in Jesus Christ?
-
What medical complications did your third son walk through?
-
Do you have any wisdom to share first about parenting adult children?
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company
Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
*Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Thanks again for joining us on this continued story series. I've loved capturing these stories of God's goodness running after us. Sometimes that's globally, and sometimes that's sharing stories locally. Today, it's such a joy to share a local story of my friend and my guest today, Carolyn Henricks.
We first met over five years ago as we started attending the same church as the Henricks and now our lives have overlapped in many ways. I'm so excited for her to now share the personal ways God has pursued her and has been with her all the days of her life.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Carolyn. Thank you.
Carolyn Henricks: Thanks for having me.
Laura Dugger: Well, I'm so excited to host you today. Will you just start us off by giving some context and sharing about your childhood and upbringing? [00:01:22]
Carolyn Henricks: Sure. I grew up in Atlanta, Illinois. That's about 45 minutes south of here. It's a really small town, about 1,200. I actually went to grade school in Atlanta, Illinois, and then ended up going to high school, to Olympia High School. So that's a consolidated school. It had eight different towns that went in there. I was actually the sixth class to graduate from Olympia High School because it was very new.
I have one older brother. My mother was a kindergarten teacher for 38 years. So that kind of gives you a glimpse of the kind of lady she was, full of patience and just sweet nature of her character. She was actually my kindergarten teacher as well, which is really fun. My dad was a buyer for a company out of Lincoln, Illinois.
My folks were married for 64 years and I think really had one of the sweetest marriages of anyone I've ever known. [00:02:20] While it was not perfect, of course, they truly really treasured each other daily and deeply. I think that even got sweeter with time. They both passed away in about 2020, really just three months apart.
I grew up in a church, and we literally were in the church every single time the doors were open. My parents loved and were very dedicated to our small church. Each of them served there in many ways, and even actually when they were too old to be doing so, they took a lot of the physical work that needed to be done in this really old building.
You know, while I was raised in a church, I would not say that I had a saving faith, I had a personal relationship with Jesus. I didn't have. We prayed before meals, but the Bible was never read in my home.
As I was thinking about this, I don't remember that the Bible was even read from the pulpit. I remember a lot of motivational-type sermons, but not a lot of scriptural ones. [00:03:25] I don't remember discussing our personal faith at any time as a young child.
My parents were very strict on respect and values. My obedience was driven out of a love and respect for them, not my desire to follow Jesus. But because I knew they would love me despite any mistakes and sins, I would often push the boundaries.
When I was in high school, my grandmother was very ill, and my parents found it easier to care for her if she would move in and spend most nights with us. I, at that time, was in high school. I had a full-size bed, and my grandmother slept there with me. It was a really very special time.
As she had aged and my grandfather had aged and then passed, my grandmother would always tell me, "You are just going to be a wonderful nurse." And so I grew up believing that I was going to be a nurse. And I did.
But my grandmother was a prayer warrior. I would say that she was the one who really taught me to pray. I specifically remember that her prayers were those of one who seemed like she was talking with an old friend. [00:04:35] So she walked through life with a confidence and an assurance of her faith. And I did not truly appreciate this until I had a saving faith of my own.
Laura Dugger: I would love to hear more about your saving faith. But first, when did Gary enter the picture, who is your now husband?
Carolyn Henricks: So actually, we met on a blind date. It was the last month of my senior year of nurse's training. One of my college professors, who knew him, was a good family friend of his, she really wanted me to meet him. She knew that I enjoyed water skiing and did a little competition where he skied a lot in competition. She said he was a nice young man, and he sang in their church choir and I just really needed to meet him.
So we had our first date, actually, the day before we graduated. And then I moved back to Atlanta, Illinois, for over the summer, and then moved back to Peoria to start my career. [00:05:37]
We dated on and off, I would say. As I told my kids, it was so different then. You know, you had a wall phone that you had to wait until it would ring to whoever it was. As a young lady, you didn't exactly call the gentleman. So I would wait for the phone to ring. So I decided to start attending the church that he went to and join the choir so that I could see him on Thursday nights and Sunday. We have now been married 40 years this past summer.
Laura Dugger: I love that so much. I'm trying to get the timeline correct then. When you were married, did you already have a saving faith in Jesus Christ, or what was it that drew you to that?
Carolyn Henricks: Actually, as a junior in high school, I was invited to go to the cabin. That's a place in Tremont that a young gentleman from high school had actually told me he was giving his testimony at the cabin that night. [00:06:40] I wasn't even sure what the testimony was at that point.
Went to the cabin, heard his testimony. I remember thinking as a young adult, and even a newly married, that choosing Jesus fully meant giving up something. Maybe that you had to look different, or you would act different, or dress different and giving up friends that we enjoyed. But God was so gracious and patient with me.
For me, my journey of faith was just that. It was a journey. We were only married about a year and a half when we became pregnant with our first son and about seven months along, my water broke. So we ended up delivering a little guy who was super tiny. Spent six weeks in the NICU and battled a lot of respiratory issues and feeding issues. It was quite stressful for a young couple, newly married.
When he was about a year and a half old, my husband's father, who had just retired, was diagnosed with a very aggressive cancer. [00:07:48] And it was a long 18-month journey. He was so young. He was 63. We were 27 and 30 when all of this happened. We helped care for him in my husband's home and actually when he then was in the hospital's home. And it was daily and emotionally and physically draining.
By the time he passed away, our kids were nine months old and three years old. And I remember while we prayed frequently during this time, I don't think that we truly, really embraced the peace that comes through Jesus.
Soon after this, a young couple that we had gotten to know really well through my husband's work, we really connected because our boys were about the same age. During her second pregnancy, she had found a lump in her breast. And by the time she delivered, it was a very aggressive breast cancer.
They were strong believers. We had actually taken them a meal a few days before she passed away. And that night... we often talk about this very specific night where we went and sat in their living room. [00:08:56] We had taken them this meal. And as we sat in their presence that evening, it was incredible. There was this tangible peace that just encompassed them.
They ended up ministering to us. And that evening when we left, knowing that would be the last time we would see her, we just wept. We verbalized to each other that they had something that we did not, but we didn't even know how to get it. We just didn't even know.
Soon after that, like a day later, Gary left for a business trip and he was unable to attend her funeral, which was at the Old Grace Press Church. The pastor actually preached the plan of salvation and offered the opportunity to be saved. And that was the moment that I, for the very first time, knew I was a sinner and in need of a Savior and gave my life to Christ.
Laura Dugger: We are always moved to tears when we hear the saving grace of Jesus. [00:09:55] It never gets old, the story that never gets old. And we tell it because He will do it again for others as we share.
Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: So that was your story, but Gary was traveling at this time. Did he come to a personal faith soon after that?
Carolyn Henricks: That took some time as well. And not too long after that, we actually moved to Morton. So that was in 1990. At that time, we were still attending Gary's church back home where we had always been. Some friends invited us to come to Grace Church in Morton about within a month from when we moved. So we started attending there and immediately just dug in and started serving.
We both had such a love for music, still do, and we started helping direct a high school kids choir. We actually, back then, we did plays during that time. And it was so much fun. Later, we served with the junior high and high school ministries for about 20 years. [00:12:58] We both served on the worship team as well.
But being part of a church community certainly changed the trajectory of our lives. We both were baptized as believers at Grace. I think I was first, and he was maybe a year or so after that. We became members.
I think often of those who invested in us as a couple, we were new believers. And we kind of called ourselves first-generation Christians. You know, when you think of all the things that you learn as a new believer, and then trying to impart that in your children, and just they discipled us. We're so grateful for that.
But one of the most impactful things we did as a new believer was going on a short-term mission trip to Burkina Faso. The church needed a nurse to go and give some vaccines and someone with computer experience. So we jumped in and we did that. And what God allowed us to see and experience changed our view of Him and our forever view of the power of the gospel through that. [00:14:06]
Laura Dugger: You say you were offering some medical help on this trip. And I remember you said your grandma had prophesied over you would be a great nurse. Were you working at this point as well?
Carolyn Henricks: Yes, I was. I worked as a nurse and was working in the pediatric intensive care at that time. And due to some health issues that I had during my third son's pregnancy, I couldn't carry any more children. So, yeah, I was working in the pediatric ICU.
Now we had three sons at that time, which my husband would have said was the perfect family. But I was just convinced we needed some spice and pink in our family and just some of that true tenderness that only a little girl can bring.
So one day I was working in the pediatric intensive care, and a family that I had cared for had come up to visit us onto the floor, which wasn't unusual. They were carrying this darling 13-month-old foster daughter with them. [00:15:09] She was absolutely adorable.
The family had shared that they were very confident that her case would end up in adoption. They also really just felt like they weren't called to keep her because they had a really medical complex child of their own. They said that the caseworker would be looking for a family for a permanent foster placement.
So I immediately started praying, shared it with my husband. It did take him a little while for the Lord to work on his heart, but soon we became foster parents. And right before her second birthday, she moved into our home and we finalized her adoption with us when she was three and a half years old. Kelsey is now 25 and recently married. And God taught us so much through Kelsey.
By the time she had moved in with us, we were actually her fifth foster family. So much attachment trauma, as you can imagine. [00:16:09] Adoption is certainly not an easy journey, but it is so worth it.
Laura Dugger: It's incredible. During your time at Grace Church, what was the Body of Christ, the people in the congregation, what are some things that they did that stood out to really encourage you?
Carolyn Henricks: So, yes, we were new in our faith, new coming to Grace. Both of us had experiences in our churches where we became members and we served. And back then we expressed that, you know, we really want to become members at Grace Church.
An older couple that actually lived down the block from us took us out for lunch. And again, here's our testimony. They were like, "Oh, tell us your testimony and how you had a saving faith in Jesus." And at this point, we did not. At that point, we had not fully... I mean, yes, I had made a profession of faith at that funeral and that beginning journey, right? [00:17:16] But without discipleship and mentoring, it probably just happened at that point.
And so that's where we see Grace as being such a place where we were discipled and really our faith journey just grew from there. But this couple took us out for lunch and they said, you know, give us your testimony, tell us.
We really just both told about growing up in the church and really what that looked like. And so then they said, "And then you were baptized as believers." And we just very calmly said, "No, we were baptized as babies. And they said, "To become members of Grace, we believe in the importance of believers' baptism" and really talked a little bit about that.
At that point, I think we became really quiet because they said, "Well, you know, that really does need to happen. That's a step of obedience for a church that we believe is important before we become members."
Of course, we kind of got a little quiet at that point. We left there thinking, "Okay, I don't know what we think about this." [00:18:21] But it did send us down a path of wanting to find out: What was the importance of that? Why was that important?
Then that is when we both, in different time frames, decided to become baptized. It was huge. Interestingly, I had invited my parents to come to witness the baptism. We had two boys, I think, at that point. My parents elected not to come because they said I already was baptized.
But watching me grow in my faith and by the time Gary was baptized, they came to Gary's baptism and really were so gracious in saying, "I'm sorry, we weren't there for you. And we see this and the importance of that." So, yeah, that was really huge.
And I think about our boys, our young boys, even witnessing that of our profession of faith and our baptism as well.
Laura Dugger: One reoccurring scripture that comes up for The Savvy Sauce is James 1:22. It says, "Do not merely listen to the word and so deceive yourselves. [00:19:25] Do what it says." And because our tagline here is Practical Chats for Intentional Living, we want to hear how you are applying these messages to your own life.
What action steps have you taken after hearing one of these podcasts that has improved your life a little bit? We would love to hear it. Please email us at info@thesavvysauce.com.
Now, at this point, you have Drew and Derek and Dylan and Kelsey. But specifically with Dylan, he faced a lot of medical complications. So will you share that journey with us?
Carolyn Henricks: Sure. Dylan, our youngest son, who's now 31, was born with a complex congenital heart defect. I did not know when I was pregnant with him that he had this, so it was quite shocking. I also had a medical condition that I didn't know until I delivered, which I ended up being pretty sick from.
Because Dylan had no way for the blood to get to his lungs right immediately when he was born, due to the anatomy of his heart, he required an open-heart surgery. He was just 24 hours old. [00:20:36] I clearly remember this visit that happened in the hospital from the cardiologist.
He came into our room and we'd already collected so many questions. We had so many questions. We wanted to know. We just began firing all these questions at him and desiring all the answers right then that took him all the way from adulthood. You can imagine. How many surgeries will he have? Is he going to be normal? Could he die suddenly at some point? What else are we to expect? Will he ever play sports? I remember thinking. That seemed so huge for some reason, right? Could he play sports?
But the doctor was so patient and gracious and kind with us. And he shared that what he did know was that our life with Dylan, due to the complexity of his heart, that it wouldn't be just his heart, you know, that special heart, that life would just be about stuff. [00:21:35]
He told us that while he didn't have the answers to all these things that we really desperately wanted to know, he shared that life would be about stuff and that God would provide those answers to all of our questions in the days and the weeks and the years ahead.
I don't know how many times I have thanked God that he did not reveal all of that to us upfront. Right? How many of us would choose to walk those hard roads if we knew? Thank you, Lord, for not letting us see the whole picture. That it is because you love us so much and desire our dependence to be on you, you are so gracious to give us just what we need in the time when we need it.
A verse that so spoke to us during this time still does. Romans 8:18. And it says, "Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory He will reveal to us later." [00:22:38] It's just become such a life verse for us for so many reasons.
Dylan ended up having another open heart surgery when he was 18 months old and at 6 years old. When he was about 10 years old, he had a routine checkup where they were just checking his heart and they actually found multiple fractures on his spine.
And after months and months of testing and going here and there, he was finally diagnosed with something called juvenile idiopathic osteoporosis. It's actually just a very rare metabolic bone disorder. It has nothing to do with his heart.
We actually were followed by a specialist from Shriners. We would have to go and spend one week in the hospital every single month where he would then receive these transfusions until he really began producing calcium in his bone again. [00:23:40]
This was actually a really hard diagnosis for me for whatever reason, for lots of reasons, in my faith, I think, because Dylan had been this kid who lived without pain, even though he had this congenital heart problem. But this time he lived in pain, and that was really hard.
So everything about this was just part of that stuff that the cardiologist had shared when he was born. Dylan was such a happy-go-lucky little guy that he made friends everywhere he went. Never knew a stranger. Made the best of every situation. Even when we were at Shriners, he would always make a new friend. He was one of those little kids who could get someone's whole life story in an elevator ride. And he just radiated joy even in the midst of his circumstances.
Something that I had not thought of for a really long time, Laura, when we were at Grace and we were in a Sunday school class. And it was right before Dylan was having his second open-heart surgery. [00:24:44] So he was about 18 months old. This one felt hard because, you know, we knew him as a little guy, not as a newborn. You know, so you knew his little personality.
A dear friend in a prayer that was in our Sunday school class just led the most prophetic prayer over him. She pleaded with God just to grow Dylan into a man who would glorify God with all that he had been through and would go through and that through Dylan's life, he would lead others to Jesus. And God really answered that prayer.
Laura Dugger: Yes, he did. I'm sure he did countless times. But Dylan went on to a medical career. I know of a local friend who their son had complicated diagnoses related to his heart as well and they didn't know if he was going to make it. Dylan was the medical professional working with them and they call Dylan their angel nurse. And that little boy's life was spared. [00:25:49]
So I don't know all the stories and lives that Dylan has touched. But I am sure, especially as a mama, it was hard to have faith and also hold hope at that time because you couldn't see the future. But will you catch us up and give us a glimpse into your family and what it looks like today?
Carolyn Henricks: Sure. So we ended up having four children. They are all married now. We have ten grandchildren. Our oldest son, Drew, and his wife, Rachel, they have three little boys. Drew actually took an internship with the Department of Army right out of college and has lived in the D.C., Virginia area ever since. His wife, Rachel, is a teacher. They love their church community and just serve there so well and faithful.
Our second son, Derek, and his wife, Kara, live here in Morton. They have one son and three girls. Derek is an associate pastor at Grace Church, where we attend and Kara is a stay-at-home mom and photographer. [00:26:52]
We certainly did not anticipate that they would be here in Morton someday, as Derek began his college and the first eight years of his career in the military. But the Lord led them to seminary in Louisville and then to the position here. And so, again, abundantly more than we could have asked or imagined.
Then Dylan is married to Sophie. And, as we said, they are both nurses. They have three little girls. Their second daughter, Ruth, was also born with a very complex congenital heart defect. But Ruth is now two-and-a-half, and she has had three open-heart surgeries.
Then our daughter, Kelsey, she lives in California and just actually was married a few weeks ago in a little private ceremony at our home to her husband, Sean, who's a Marine, and he was just deployed this past Saturday. So, Kelsey works as a fashion photographer.
Laura Dugger: Incredible to hear the faithfulness and what all God brought you through. [00:27:51] Now that we get to be neighbors and we attend the same church and our lives have overlapped, we get to witness that you and Gary are such helpful parents and involved grandparents. So, do you have any wisdom to share first about parenting adult children?
Carolyn Henricks: One of the things I often say is there are so many stages and phases of life that you cannot possibly relate to until you're walking in them. I don't know if you remember when you first had children and then you had friends who had children and it seemed like our whole world just revolved around the kids and you kind of couldn't relate to it at that time until you did.
Or, for example, I remember when I became a mother-in-law, the moment I became a mother-in-law, the empathy and the love I felt toward my own mother-in-law was so magnified in a way that I had never felt before. [00:28:51] I remember seeing these grandparents who always showed pictures of their grandkids. I thought that was so funny. And then I became one.
So, you asked about parenting adult children. How do we speak into our kids' lives at this age? Just like perhaps you walk along other parents who have kids the age of your kids and how do you glean from each other, right? Parenting adult kids is certainly different. I hesitate to use the word "hard". I would just say it's different.
And it's funny, but I can clearly remember watching my parents and maybe even with a little bit of a critical spirit at some time thinking, "Oh, I could do it so different. I will parent my kids so different." Again, the respect for my parents magnified when I had my own.
But just recently, one of our sons openly asked us if we saw something in their parenting skill or style, would we feel free to speak openly and tell them? [00:29:54] And without a hesitation, Gary, my beau, answered, "No, not unless you asked us." But somehow he was really surprised by that answer.
But interestingly, we shared that with all of our kids that have kids, and they sweetly told us, "No, please, we want you to share with us." But maybe that's a good question to ask up front, right? As a parent, you know, before you want to say something, give them the hypothetical. Do you want us to say something?
You know, sometimes just asking that permission and getting that conversation out in the open would be really helpful. As far as wisdom, I would say that transparency and humility is really important.
One of the things that we've been open and transparent about with our adult kids are those areas of parenting and marriage that we wish we could have had a redo, how we could have prayed more about things as a family that we struggled with, how we personally reacted instead of responded at times, and how we wish we would have not allowed anger to dominate over love many times. [00:31:07] But again, He was faithfully working despite us. And one of the best ways to help our kids and our adult kids is to ask them, How can we pray for you? And then do it.
Laura Dugger: I love that response. There's so much there. And just a little quick story of encouragement. My husband, Mark, and I were out with Derek and Kara recently, and we were at the local restaurant, Kemp 208. And sure enough, maybe an hour into our meal, we see you guys are being seated with a big group of your friends. And we were remarking at our table, How awesome to see our parents investing in their friendships. And Derek said you did a great job of that. All of growing up in, it is such a good model to each of us.
But then one of your friends came over past our table. They were walking into the restroom, and we were having a small talk with her and she just said, "Yep, this group of friends, we tell each other everything." [00:32:07] I just love the model that you maybe didn't even know you were laying out for each of us to invest in that community.
I'm sure you do talk about parenting in this phase of life with each other, and you're an encouragement to one another as well. Do you have any encouragement for the fellow grandparents listening?
Carolyn Henricks: I did not read the book Parenting by Paul Tripp, in case you haven't read it. It's wonderful, but I read it as a grandparent. And there were so many profound statements in the very first few chapters of this book that I was actually so sad I had never read it until my kids were grown. But I know now that I comply it to the wisdom of grandparenting.
It talks about that we get so caught up in our parenting every day that we truly lose sight of one of our most important roles as a parent, and now a grandparent, is just being an ambassador for Christ. And that is really just pointing them continually to Jesus. [00:33:12] This was so encouraging to me.
The great news is that we can still do this with our adult kids. We can still do this with our grandkids. And sometimes parenting is just pure survival, right? The everyday, the ordinary, meals, more meals, school routines, emotions, temper tantrums, sickness, disappointments, accidents, bedtime routines, and it starts all over again in 12 hours. And I can remember it so well.
I know this is so exhausting, and there are so many highs and lows in parenting. But again, I think Paul's words in Hebrews 12, Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a huge crowd of witnesses to the life of faith, let us strip off every weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily trips us up. And let us run with endurance the race God has set before us. We do this by keeping our eyes on Jesus, the champion who initiates and perfects our faith." [00:34:14]
I would just encourage you to look to those who run the race before you, but also find those who are spiritual runners to run beside you. This is huge.
Laura Dugger: I think of your impact as a grandparent and your grandmother's impact on you and your faith journey and her prayers that were stored up for eternity about you. There's a previous guest, Dr. Rob Rienow, who talks about visionary parenting and grandparenting and really how in the Bible God reveals that He has supernatural influence that he gifts to parents and grandparents. I know we are so grateful for the influence of Mark's parents, of my parents, on our children's lives, and you guys model that as well.
But Carolyn, is there anything else that we didn't get to cover yet that you want to make sure we highlight? [00:35:15]
Carolyn Henricks: Sometimes it's kind of fun to ask your kids, what is something that impacted you as growing up that we did in our home? I've asked that question, and our kids remind us that throughout different life stages, it was just not uncommon for us to have house guests.
Sometimes that would just be an overnight here and there. Like many times, I would invite the parents of the patients I took care of to spend the night, and maybe they would bring that child to our home for the first night instead of having a hotel because they maybe lived far away. Maybe it was just someone who needed a few nights to stay, or if it was someone who needed a place to call home for even a few months. We did that many times.
And a few times it was just some kids whose life circumstances were just beyond hard, and they needed to stay a year. [00:36:14] But it taught us all so much. It helped us to take our eyes off ourselves and our own family and to do life with others. We often talk about how this stretched us as a family and a couple through the years.
Laura Dugger: Thank you for sharing that. You are already familiar that we are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question for you today, Carolyn, what is your savvy sauce?
Carolyn Henricks: I have not been able to stop thinking about this. But actually, as I prayed about it and was truly reflecting about the question, I would say it's kind of what I started with, which is I really believe we are called to share freely and often about God's faithfulness in our lives. This serves as a witness to others and produces an overwhelming sense of thankfulness and gratitude for what He has done in our lives. [00:37:15]
We often like to reflect on this question, Gary and I do, on which trial would we give back. And our conclusion is always the same. We would not give even one back because each one of the trials, even the really, really hard ones, God was there. He was right there. His hand was all over it, and He brought us through with such a new and renewed appreciation of who He was and how much He loved us.
So look back, remember, write it down. Share with those you love so they may be encouraged, not about what you have done or survived, but what God has done in and through you.
Laura Dugger: I love that so much. And you have so much savvy sauce in you. There is more you can answer. I even think getting to be in the same neighborhood now, Mark and I will so many times see you and Gary working out together on your bikes or going for a walk together. And your friendship is so apparent in your marriage, but also the two of you just have a little twinkle in your eye. [00:38:20] Maybe that's the love of God, I don't know, but that friendship shines through.
So I just want to say I'm so grateful that God crossed our paths, not just as neighbors, but attending the same church. You helped us move into this home where we're recording, and you've taught Sunday school for our daughters, and you've been willing to answer my questions at different times about parenting. So you are just simply a joy to spend time with, and I just want to say thank you for being my guest.
Carolyn Henricks: Thanks, Laura.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior. [00:39:30]
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.
Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:40:31] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:41:34]
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Oct 21, 2024
Monday Oct 21, 2024
*DISCLAIMER* This message contains adult themes and is not intended for little ears.
Special Patreon Release: Remaining Sexually Engaged Through the Years with Dr. Michael Sytsma
**Transcription Below**
Colossians 3:14 (NIV) “And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.”
Dr. Michael Sytsma is a certified sex therapist, ordained minister, and co-founder of sexual wholeness. Dr. Mike has been working with couples in a variety of capacities since 1987. He currently works with Building Intimate Marriages in Atlanta, GA as he meets with clients, teaches, and speaks at various conferences. He and Karen have been married since 1985 and have two sons, Josiah and Caleb.
Building Intimate Marriages Website
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Chasing Sacred (Use code SAVVY for 20 percent off their Bible studies)
Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
Chasing Sacred is a women's ministry that provides intentional tools for studying the Bible. Their mission is simple: to get women to love the Word through the process of inductive Bible study. They're offering all of us a discount for 20% off when we use the code SAVVY at checkout.
If this is your first time here, welcome! You may be wondering what it means to have a special Patreon release. So here's the scoop. Patreon was a platform we used to generate financial support for The Savvy Sauce, and we expressed our thanks to those paying patrons by giving them a bonus episode every month. [00:01:16]
But in 2024, we transitioned away from Patreon when we became a nonprofit called The Savvy Sauce Charities. The podcast is part of this nonprofit, which exists to resource loved ones to inspire growth and intimacy with God and others. So people used to pay to support us through Patreon, but now they can just donate directly to our nonprofit.
We spend thousands of dollars each year to record and produce these episodes, and we do pray that they're beneficial and that God sees fit to use them to be transformational in your life. If that is the case, if you have ever benefited from an episode of The Savvy Sauce, would you consider showing your gratitude through your financial generosity? Any amount is greatly appreciated.
In fact, if every listener gave only one dollar per month, it would completely offset our costs. [00:02:16] We have all the details on our website, thesavvysauce.com, but feel free to also reach out to our team anytime if you want to partner together. Our email address is info at thesavvysauce.com.
My guest is pastor, author, speaker, Christian sex therapist, and my previous professor, Dr. Michael Sytsma.
Here's our chat.
Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Sytsma.
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Thank you, Laura. I appreciate it. It's always an honor to be here.
Laura Dugger: Well, like I mentioned previously, you are a longtime friend of The Savvy Sauce, and listeners probably are already familiar with your previous three episodes. But will you just give us a quick picture of your life during this season?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Sure. I've been married for about 35 years, have two adult children, you know, fairly stable career, love working with couples in my office, about 25 couples a week. [00:03:16] Actually, most of them are doing a fair recovery kind of work and really healing well from that. I love that kind of work. And then a lot of them are doing sex therapy. And then teaching couples and professionals how to work with sexual issues in their life and in their clients.
Laura Dugger: That is such a fascinating variety that you've got on your plate. Today we're going to be discussing how to remain sexually engaged through the years. So, what would you say is the kind of intimacy that you hope everyone listening will experience with their spouse?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: It's fascinating to me how couples will come into either my workshop, or to counseling, or to some of the seminars or teachings that I do, and we have different views of what intimacy looks like. Sometimes they put it in terms of frequency, or how successful they are, and how they touch one another.
For me, what my hope would be is that every couple learn how to just truly be authentic and transparent with each other, getting to the point that I'm not ashamed of any part of who I am, that I can expose that to my spouse, even those parts of me that I don't like about me, that my spouse is going to be curious, or I'm going to be curious about them. [00:04:35] We allow each other to be human and are gracious with each other. So that allows me to be my authentic self in front of you, more you as my spouse than anybody else.
You receive that well, you let me be human, and we're just gracious and continue to be curious about each other. To me, that's the kind of intimacy that I like to see happen. That rolls into the sexual piece, because nobody learns how to excite me, how to nurture me, how to care for me in that arena like you do. The sexual piece happens within that larger context of transparency and curiosity and grace.
Laura Dugger: I think that's a great foundation to come back to, that that sexual intimacy is just a part of the overall intimacy. But I would like to focus on the sexual intimacy in marriage in different phases. So let's begin with newlyweds.
From your work, what is the greatest blessing and the biggest trial for most newlyweds as it relates to sex in marriage? [00:05:39]
Dr. Michael Sytsma: I see three really different groups coming to see me for premarital, and I think the differences in them is important. One group are those that are very sexually limited. They haven't had much sexual activity with anybody, and probably very little, if any, with each other.
They've chosen to draw a boundary around themselves, and they're entering into marriage without having a lot of experience. They'll have some, usually, but not a lot. For these, I think part of the beauty or the joy that they have ahead of them, and part of the challenge, is realistic discovery.
They often come in with a fantasy of what, often, their first sexual encounters with each other is going to be like. They're going to need time to figure themselves and each other out. And many times they're working with an unrealistic expectation. The advantage is they get to discover all of this together. So the encouragement for them is be curious, to explore each other and self, to work on just being playful. [00:06:41]
I think the second group are those that are sexually experienced with others, but not necessarily as a couple. So I have a number of couples come in and say, Well, yeah, through a certain stage of our life, we were wild and crazy, or I might have been married before, but we've really worked on honoring one another, and we've drawn some boundaries and tried to keep that protected.
I think the advantage they bring in is, often, the fantasy piece is a bit disrupted for them. They know that sex isn't always as amazing as media might suggest it is. But the challenge is to learn how to connect with each other without bringing the baggage of their past in. They can bring what they've learned about themselves and about each other in, but how do I not impose that on my new bride, on my new groom?
Again, the way we do that is just by being curious about each other, learning, working on not engaging these experiences up against our past experiences. Take time to really ask, you know, "I've learned this about me. What is it like for you? What have you learned about you?" [00:07:46] And developing a unique way of connecting that is precious to them as a couple, that's informed by the others, but not compared by the others, or not dictated by the others.
I think the third group are those that come in that have been highly sexually active with each other. Many times they've been living together for a while. Sometimes they've been acting as husband and wife, even. And for them, the honeymoon stage, it doesn't have that newness to it. They haven't been waiting for this time. They are beginning life as a married couple, and even if they've been living together, it does change the relationship.
I think it's easy for couples in this category to let the sex life take a hit, because often they're going to be taking hits in other arenas of the marriage, or other arenas of their relationship. For couples that sex is new, even if it's just new with each other, the energy of that newness and the discovery and the play of it kind of helps to override some of those early struggles, where couples where it's not new, they don't have that energy to help override it. [00:08:53] So I think they have to put extra energy into keeping their sex life growing, and keeping it special, and keeping it rich for them.
So I think it depends a little bit on where the couple is coming in, in terms of their sexual experience as a whole and with each other.
Laura Dugger: That distinction is so helpful. You say that so succinctly from your years of experience in meeting countless couples. That's really helpful.
So if we fast forward a bit then, what are some of the unique benefits and challenges that come when the couple adds children into their family?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: I think this is one of the toughest arenas for marriage. We, in our field, will often talk about the birth of the first child as being the greatest trauma to a marriage. We can think of a number of traumas to individual lives, but when we think of a marriage, the birth of the child is the greatest trauma that happens.
Even though we see it as a good thing, it still disrupts the entire system. [00:09:55] We're adding another individual in, and it impacts on multiple levels. The stress, the fatigue, just refocusing attention. Now we've got this new little one that demands attention, and we have to give them attention, whether we want to or not.
"I've enjoyed this time in the evening where you always attend to me, and now you're not attending to me any longer. I want you to attend to our child, but I'm also a little resentful and hurt that I don't get attended to." And how do we sort through that? That can be really tough for a couple.
When it begins to occur, we have not just the financial issues, not just change in roles, and who's responsible for what, and having to readjust those, but it impacts our sex life.
You know, especially for the mom, as prolactin level goes up, and as fatigue goes up, and she's just not... she doesn't have the interest or the energy for it. That was an important way that he connected with her, and she's not available. [00:10:58] They have to often figure out where are we gonna find the energy, and he has to figure out how does he re-energize her in other ways.
This is just a traumatic time as couples have to lean in, be curious about each other, explore, really serve one another well, and recognize this is a tough season for this part of our relationship. We will get through it, and we'll stabilize, and we'll be fine. But sometimes it means just saying, you know what, our sex life is going to take a hit for a few months. And that just needs to be okay, because we have to put the energy into other arenas. Sometimes it means getting away occasionally. But just being gracious and careful with each other.
Laura Dugger: I like that language: being careful with each other. And during that next phase of marriage then, maybe the couple has a few kids, and they could range from toddlers to elementary school. During that season, what positives and negatives do you often hear from those couples? [00:11:59]
Dr. Michael Sytsma: The positive is often kids are a little bit more self-sufficient. So the primary caregiver, often mom, has at least a few more minutes that she can catch her breath. She may be able to sleep through the night now.
And often they have learned a bit of a routine as mom and dad, and how to connect with each other. Hopefully, by now they're figuring out places that they can carve out. They figured out how to be not just mom and dad, but also husband and wife.
I do think that's part of the challenge through all of these. But now is the time that they can start to really carve out that time and establish patterns of "this is where we are husband and wife. We are not mom and dad in this space."
Sometimes that space may be space in the house. You know, the master suite may be where we are husband and wife, and the kids aren't invited into this space. Or it may be certain times of the day is where we're husband and wife. [00:13:01]
One of the couples I'm currently working with, because of the mix of kids that they have, and the kids being in different schedules, two days a week they meet together at home for lunch. And lunch is grabbing a quick lunch, and then kind of their language is, we have each other for lunch. That's their time, their sacred space, where they are just husband and wife, not mom and dad. And none of the kids are at home, they've got free rain, it's middle of the day, so their energy is high, and they're able to step out and just be husband and wife together.
She says, "Most of the time we have sex, not always, but we're always husband and wife." And I think that's part of what can come during the stage as we set patterns that are going to carry through for often the rest of the marriage.
Laura Dugger: That brings me to something else that I've heard you speak on before. Could you just explain how you help couples give language to choosing either a marriage bed or a family bed? [00:14:01]
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Because of this concept of where do I have space that I am husband and wife, not just mom and dad, and helping couples to think about it, for some couples their master suite or their marriage bed is just that, it's a marriage bed. It's where we are husband and wife. And the kids are not really allowed in here, because they don't belong in our marriage. But they do belong in the places that we're mom and dad.
Other couples say, no, we're really not, we're not okay with keeping our kids out of that, we want a family bed. We want a bed where the kids, if they're afraid, can come climb in bed with us.
You know, there's plenty of people who teach on that, and support it, and research on it that say a family bed is a safe, comfortable, it's a nurturing environment for kids and for family. It's good if you do it. And I tell couples, I really, I don't care which they choose. I do think they need to be clear in their own minds as mom and dad, Is our marriage bed a family bed, that the kids are welcome anytime they want to? Or is our marriage bed a marriage bed? That it's where we are just husband and wife. [00:15:12]
If they choose it as a family bed, that's great, put some boundaries around it if need be. But then they really need to find some space where they are just a husband and wife. One of the couples I worked with, they took the guest room and transformed it into their couple place.
And she said, you know, that's where we could retreat as husband and wife, and the kids knew that they weren't welcome in this room. And she said, there wasn't anything horribly special in the room, it's just that's where we could get away and be husband and wife. I think that sends a clear message to the kids, whether it be the bed or a time of the day.
One couple said, "Yeah, I remember my mom and dad, Sunday afternoon, there was two hours that we could not interrupt them every week. That was their time that they were just husband and wife."
Whatever that time is, it teaches kids that they're my mom and dad, but they're also married to each other. They're husband and wife, and that is a relationship that is sacred, and I don't belong in that relationship. [00:16:13] I don't even get to know what's going on there. And I think that's good training for the kids as they get older, to create sacredness around the marital relationship.
Laura Dugger: And my guess is that it would be counterintuitive, but that the kids would actually appreciate that, maybe even especially as they grow older.
Dr. Michael Sytsma: You'll see when mom and dad are being husband and wife, that kids really work hard to insert themselves in the middle of it, and to push mom and dad apart because they want to be in the middle of it. But when dad looks and says, "This is my wife, back off," in a gentle or even a playful way, and mom says, "Hey, this is my husband. This is a hug just from him. You don't belong in here," the kids will fuss a bit about it, but we watch them settle.
That provides a stability for them that my mom and dad like each other. They're connected to each other, and I can't even get in the way of that. [00:17:15] It becomes a real source of stability and strength for the family.
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Laura Dugger: When married couples are parenting teenagers, what are some of the highs and lows the couple is likely to experience sexually? [00:19:23]
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Many times I'll have couples say, We thought that this would be an easy time for us sexually, because when the kids were little, we were getting up in the middle of the night, and we were always tired. And now the kids can drive themselves to practices and to school, and we're not playing taxi nearly as much. But what we didn't anticipate is now they stay up till midnight. And now they're old enough that if the door is closed and it's quiet in the bedroom, they start to guess at what's going on in there, and that's uncomfortable for us. You know, that they're more aware that sex may be happening, and their radar is out for it.
And so helping couples to, again, to be creative in how do we connect in ways that still feel private, that feel safe to us, that keep the kids on the outside of it, that can actually get more difficult as teenagers.
I think the other piece that comes in is teenage years are often not smooth years for a family. As teens begin to press against the authority of mom and dad, and kids get really good at splitting mom and dad, and parents often feel, you know, different role pressures. [00:20:32] And anytime there's conflict between us as mom and dad, it often shows up in the sex life as conflict in husband and wife.
And so working with couples to keep those two reasonably separated. We can't always, but how do we... Yeah, as mom and dad we might be struggling a bit because our kids just going through icky teenage years, but we still love each other as husband and wife, and we carve out time to connect there with each other.
Laura Dugger: How would you advise, then, a couple in that situation, let's say that their teenagers are becoming aware of what they're doing, how would you creatively problem-solve that, or what are some ideas to get them started?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: You know, what I like best, many couples are not real comfortable with. I like an open, transparent approach of, I like your dad, I enjoy connecting with him sexually, and you don't want to know anything about that. And usually the kid is like, No, I don't. I don't even want to... you know? But to say, "But I like him." Or to say, "I like your mom, I think she's really sexy, I enjoy being with her. [00:21:39] And you just don't want to know some of that. So you know what, if there's a sock on the door, just don't come around."
Just be more open about “I like being with, you know, your mom or with your dad.” Not letting them know what's happening during that time, but that it's okay to let them know this still goes on, we still enjoy each other.
Not all couples are okay with that. And for them, I tell them the same thing as when the kids are younger, that they just have to be creative around it. It may be that they can spend more time, you know, getting away someplace, or they can give the kid some money and say, "Hey, you and your siblings go out for a movie, and you know, don't come back for two hours. So all through it is just being creative, but prioritizing connecting as husband and wife.
Laura Dugger: Now let's transition into empty nesters. Are there any patterns you see in these couples? [00:22:39]
Dr. Michael Sytsma: If the couple has really spent their entire marriage being mom and dad, and not prioritizing being husband and wife, it's gonna definitely show up here. As kids leave, and their mom and dad roles continue to diminish, and they don't have a strong husband and wife connection. If they've prioritized their husband and wife connection and separated that from mom and dad, then this is an opportunity for it to really grow. So it's gonna depend a lot on what kind of energy they've put into it up until now.
One of the things to keep in mind, though, is often as they're moving into that empty nester stage, their bodies are getting older, and sexuality takes a different kind of role. It's not the young, athletic kind of sex, and so couples are beginning to figure out, how do we do this differently? How do we handle that our bodies don't always perform the way we want them to? Those kind of factors start to show up. [00:23:39]
I think another thing for empty nesters that I see quite often is a stage of disappointment. Often the higher drive spouse is waiting for the last child to leave, thinking when the last child leaves, we will be free to be naked around the house and have sex all day long.
And if that's not been the pattern for the couple, it's not going to be the pattern when the last child leaves. I'll often see a husband and wife get really depressed and discouraged at that point, because I've been waiting for years sometimes for us to reach this emptiness stage, where we can go back to being the erotic lovers we were on our honeymoon.
And just helping them to realize that if you haven't put the energy into it for it to be that, just the last child leaving isn't going to flip the switch. That you may have the space to do it now, but you still have to put the energy into getting back to where you're connecting with each other.
And then to ask for you to be like you were when you were first married is probably unrealistic anyways. [00:24:40] But now you have the ability, because you know each other, to make a truly rich, authentic sexual relationship with each other. But you have to put the energy into it, even when the last child leaves.
Laura Dugger: Couples who are entering years of aging, what are the most common issues and delights that they share with you?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: Oh, as they move into aging, I think the biggest thing that I work with with couples is accepting the changes that go on in their bodies. That you know, his body doesn't act like it did when he was 18 anymore. Can he accept that and be okay with it?
Because if he develops anxiety and fear around, you know, my body's not gonna work right, and she's gonna think it's about her, and I'm ashamed that my body's not working the way I want it to, then he's gonna tend to pull back.
And she doesn't understand what's going on in his mind, and she begins to think, well it's because my body's not as toned, and you know, it doesn't look like it did when he married me, and he just doesn't want me anymore. [00:25:45] And so she gets more afraid, and she pulls away.
Instead, helping couples to be open and transparent and accept, my body is what it is. You know, as her estrogen level goes down, her body doesn't respond in the same way. And you know, there may be an increased discomfort or pain, and encouraging her to spend some time talking to the doctor about what are some safe options for me? As he struggles with some physiological issues, what are some safe options for him?
And accept that our bodies are changing, and lean in, and let's do this together. Let's talk about it together. Let's be in this journey together.
That's probably the biggest thing that I work with couples. And the beauty of it is, it doesn't matter how old we are as we age, this can still be an important part of our relationship.
I had a couple in their mid-80s come in and sit down and said, "How can I help?" The older we get, the less we're concerned about how we come across sometimes. [00:26:44] And she looked up and she says, "Well, you need to help him, because sexually, well, he's not working so well anymore, and he's afraid of that, so he's not approaching me." And she said, "And I might be in my mid-80s, but I ain't dead down there yet, so we got to get this solved."
And I just thought that was great, you know, to say, "I still want to connect with him. I'm still enjoying this." And all we had to do is get them talking, get him acknowledging the fears, get her talking about what she was hoping for, and what was realistic. And it didn't take them very long before they were right back on track and enjoying.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that's incredible. One of the many reasons I believe in counseling, I think that it's just an incredible return on investment. One more question with these phases, are there any other transitional phases that we haven't covered yet, when you see couples going through a season of, yet again, adjusting their expectations for intimacy? [00:27:45]
Dr. Michael Sytsma: I don't know that it would be developmental stages as much as trauma kind of stages. You know, when a serious health crisis hits, and it disrupts their sexual connection, because sex takes energy and the law of entropy says if we're not putting energy into something, it'll degrade. If a couple's not regularly putting energy into their sex life, it begins to degrade.
And many times a health crisis, whether it be cancer or heart issues or any kind of a health crisis, can disrupt sex for a while. And the couple needing to acknowledge that, recognizing it, and develop a plan for how do we put energy back into it.
Sometimes that happens with a crisis of parents, or if a child is killed or dies in an accident or something. Those kind of major traumas to a family. Sexual wounds like infidelity or infertility. Any of those kind of traumas can disrupt a sex life, and the couple have to step back, re-plan how are we going to reconnect and how are we going to find healing coming out of this. [00:28:57] So less developmental stage and more of a trauma kind of a stage. I will see that as a time.
And many times couples need some help. And you know, a big part of what I do is just come in and provide some energy and encouragement and be a cheerleader. "You can do this. Here's the steps. You know the steps. You know what you did before. I believe in you." Many times they may need somebody that helps to energize this part of their marriage too.
Laura Dugger: I really appreciate you bringing up that phase because I'm sure so many people listening can identify with one of those pieces. If you could just speak one more word of encouragement, what hope would you want to offer them?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: You know, no matter where we're at in life, sex is not the most important part of who we are, but it is something that is powerful in drawing us together. And it's worth putting the energy into it. But sometimes just between the two of us we don't always have the energy to get it started. And reaching out to somebody who knows how to help us. [00:30:02] And that may be a book, it may be a good seminar that helps us to re-energize it.
But it's really rare that we find a couple that's kind of stalled out that they can't not just get it started again. But they can actually continue to build on it and develop a really rich part of their marriage in the sexual arena. To me, that is so cool. I hate it anytime a couple gives up hope and just steps back and resigns themselves to what it is.
Laura Dugger: I think that you are an incredible person that they could reach out to, Dr. Sytsma. You're recognized internationally and then have your offices near Atlanta, Georgia, but everyone listening can connect with you in some form online. So where would you like to direct them?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: IntimateMarriage.org is my website. They can access to see what kind of counseling options are there, what kind of intensives are there. [00:31:03] They can access the online teaching through that website. Exercises that they can work on at home are all listed on IntimateMarriage.org.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will certainly link to that in both our show notes and on our resources tab of our website.
I just have one final question for you today. We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: You know, one of the things that I spend a lot of time with couples on is being curious. As we talk through the stages of marriage, if couples can be curious with each other, rather than looking and saying, I need you to be this way, how can you be curious? Curiosity moves us away from being critical. It moves us away from being demanding. It allows us to create space that our spouse can step into and we can understand them better. [00:31:59] So The Savvy Sauce would just be curious about each other.
Laura Dugger: That's a good word. Thank you so much. You are actually our most frequent guest on The Savvy Sauce officially, and you deliver every time. I learn so much new from you. So thanks again for joining us today, Dr. Sytsma.
Michael: Thank you, Laura.
Annie: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:33:04] This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.
Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. [00:34:10]
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:35:11]
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Oct 14, 2024
Monday Oct 14, 2024
243: Stories Series: Angel Encounter and Hearing from God with Mary Beth Zimmerman
**Transcription Below**
Hebrews 1:14 (NIV) "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?
Other episode Mentioned:
Topics we cover:
- Unique Upbringing
- Angel Encounter
- God reveals Himself in a Personal Way
Mary Beth Zimmerman has been married to her high school sweetheart, Dennis, for 42 years. In all the excitement of establishing their home and later, their business, they were privileged to raise three fun and energetic boys. Mary Beth is blessed to have a warm, kind daughter in-law and two precious grandchildren. She is now back to keeping their home and office in check with just she and Dennis at home. Mary Beth loves to travel with her husband and two of her favorite trips (besides their ongoing trips to Table Rock Lake with family) have been a motorcycle trip to Canada and a 12-day stay in Israel, walking and seeing where Jesus lived and died and rose again. She loves Jesus and encourages others in their walk with Him!
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka
Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:01] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka. Owned and operated by the Bertschi family, Sam Leman and Eureka appreciate the support they've received from their customers all over central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at LemanGM.com.
Mary Beth Zimmerman is my guest today, and she happens to also be my aunt, who we lovingly call MB. Her husband is Dennis, so I'm used to calling them DZ and MB, which may happen during our time together.
But Mary Beth is a faithful woman, a prayer warrior, and she has a spiritual gift of encouraging others. So you can expect to feel uplifted and have your faith expanded, as she shares a few meaningful life stories with us now. [00:01:21]
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Mary Beth.
Mary Beth Zimmerman: Thank you, Laura. It is a joy to be here. I love spending time with you, no matter what we do or talk about.
Laura Dugger: Likewise. Will you just begin our time by sharing a bit of your upbringing, and give us some context for your life?
Mary Beth Zimmerman: Okay, well, the older I get, the more I appreciate my upbringing. It was unique. I'm the eighth child of 10 children, and both of my mom and dad were believer. They made it a top priority to tell us about Jesus and to teach us his word and to memorize scripture and live godly lives and attend church regularly.
So my dad was a businessman, and mom was at home with us kids. Our neighborhood was unique because we had families that were related to each other. My grandpa had bought a piece of ground, and his daughter lived next door, which was my mom, and all 10 of us kids lived there. [00:02:29]
Then on the other side of my grandpa was his son and his wife and their five children. And then on the other side of our home was my mom's sister and her husband and their seven children.
So if you walked across the street and went through the backyards, you'd be on another street where another family of siblings and their family lived. And it was two brothers and then their sister and their spouses and children. So there were quite a few children in the neighborhood.
And then on the end of our street and up a block was the family of our pastor and his wife and their six children. I think I'm getting the numbers right here. But in the whole neighborhood, there were 43 kids. So you can imagine, there was a little rivalry. There was a little chaos in the summertime when we were all home. And there was some family rivalry, but there were a lot of good, fun times had. [00:03:40]
Since we all attended the same church and we were all cousins and we all attended the same school, we knew each other very well. That was a blessing.
Also, the parents would go to church on Wednesday nights. And a lot of times they had choir practice even after church. So we knew that we had a few hours to just do whatever we wanted. Those were unsupervised hours. And we just played kick the can, we played baseball, and sometimes we did things that were a little bit ornery and we got in trouble for it. But those are what memories are made of, right?
So that was my growing up. Then in my high school years, I worked for my dad as a secretary for his real estate business and got married when I was 19. I had dated Dennis all through high school and got married when we were 19 and almost 20 he was. [00:04:46]
So that's the context of my growing up.
Laura Dugger: Well, and I love that I've gotten to hear some of these stories over the years that Dennis has shared that he still remembers your outfit and your halter top when he first met you. Because he was from the town over and you met at the pool. Is that right?
Mary Beth Zimmerman: Yes. That also comes under unsupervised because I'd sneak out of the house sometimes with Daisy Duke shorts and a tube top on and go to the pool and meet him while my mom was at work.
Laura Dugger: It really was a different time. Very different supervision compared to today.
Mary Beth Zimmerman: Definitely.
Laura Dugger: Well then, catch us up, how did your life change when you came to a saving faith in Jesus Christ?
Mary Beth Zimmerman: Well, as I said, my mom and dad were godly parents and I lived all of my life believing in Jesus, praying to Jesus. My prayer would always be, "Save me from going to hell. Keep me safe. [00:05:50] Keep my family safe."
As I grew older into high school years, I kept him at a healthy distance because I knew my life wasn't honoring Him. I always knew that Jesus was the Savior and I prayed every night that he would save me and forgive my sins. I believe that he was the Savior, even my Savior, but He had not become the Lord of my life.
For me, becoming a Christian meant surrendering my life to Christ and the best way I knew how to do that was to become a member of our church. Those were two separate things, but they were combined in my life. So when I knew that I needed to surrender my life, that was a non-negotiable. I knew that I had to make Jesus Lord of my life. I knew there was going to be a huge lifestyle change. I knew that I needed to make Him my Lord. [00:06:51]
So becoming a member of the church would require a little more. That would require me dressing differently. My activities would be different. Who I hung out with would be different. That probably kept me from becoming a child of God for a couple of years because there was a big emphasis on when you become a child of God, you live a separate life from the world.
I had been dating Dennis all through high school, and we were planning to get married after we graduated. I wanted my dad to walk me down the aisle on my wedding day. I wanted a long white dress, and those were things at that time that the church considered worldly. So I always knew I was going to get married before I surrendered my life.
About six months after we were married, we both had felt the call on our lives, and we had discussed it prior to marriage that the road that we would take would be to become members of the Apostolic Christian Church and be a part of that church family. [00:08:04] So on November 23, 1981, we surrendered our lives to the one who calls Himself the Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion, and sin, which we definitely had in our lives at that time.
We were baptized in March of 1982, and then the next big event in our lives would be to welcome our three beautiful boys into our family. Our son, Jake, was born in November of '83, followed by Caleb, joining us in July of '85. And then we welcomed David in the month of December of 1988.
I had the privilege of raising the three beautiful, rambunctious kids with my husband while at the same time starting a business of our own. And then for the next 42 years, we'd be freeing ourselves into both of those endeavors. [00:09:04]
Laura Dugger: It's so fun as an adult to hear all of that laid out because I grew up with your boys, but now as a parent, I'm realizing they really did come close together.
Mary Beth Zimmerman: Yes.
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: But there's a certain story that I remember hearing when I was really young, and it actually still comes to my mind often. So I'd love for you to take us back to that time when your boys were really young. Can you tell us more about a certain experience you had in Chicago?
Mary Beth Zimmerman: Yes. That is a story that has been told over and over. You never get tired of telling it. [00:11:04] We had Jake and Caleb. They were about 21 months apart, and then David was about three years later. At the time that our beautiful story took place, Dave and Dan, my brothers, lived in an apartment up in Chicago, and we would love to go downtown and spend time with them for a weekend.
We had been invited to a wedding, and it was March of 1990. So Jake was about six and Caleb was four, and David was 14 months. So we left David with Mom and Dad, my parents, and went up to the wedding of our friend in Barrington, Illinois.
We were planning on leaving the children with Dave and Dan to babysit. So we knew it would be a late night after the reception, so we packed their pajamas and figured that they would go to sleep before we got home, and we'd just go to Dave and Dan's downtown, pick them up, and drive home that night. [00:12:13]
It was a chilly March night around midnight when we got to Dave and Dan's apartment, and there was no place to park close to the entrance. Dennis told me just to go on up, and he'd find a place to park and be there shortly.
Dave and Dan lived on the second floor, and in order to enter the building, you had to push the correct button on a door pad, and it would alert them, and they'd ask who was there, and unlock the door from their place, and the door would open.
So I did that. I got out of the car, walked up the sidewalk and the stairs, took my coat off, kicked off my shoes, told them that Dennis was parking the car and that he'd be in shortly. Dennis did the same thing. As I was talking, the doorbell rang again, they let Dennis in, and he started asking how the boys were doing. [00:13:14] All of a sudden, the doorbell rang again, and we all four looked at each other thinking, "What in the world? Who would be ringing your doorbell at this time of night?"
Dave pressed the intercom and said, "Yes," and a kind lady's voice came across the intercom saying, "There's a little boy down here wanting to get in." All of us just looked at each other, and Dennis, being the guarding, protective dad that he was, took those steps two at a time. It couldn't have been more than five to ten seconds at the max that he was at that door and opened it up, and sure enough, he looked down, and there was Caleb in his bare feet and his little teddy bear pajamas looking up at Dennis.
Dennis looked at him and lifted him up, and he said, "How did you get out here? Where's the lady that helped you?" There was no one in sight. [00:14:24] No one all the way down both sides of the sidewalk. And it was a flat building like a brownstone, you know, so there was nowhere for anybody to go.
So he and Caleb came upstairs looking bewildered, and we just started firing the questions to little Caleb. We were like, "How long were you out there? How did you get out of the apartment without us seeing you? Who was that lady? What did she look like? What did you say to her?" And he had zero answers.
He knew he was in trouble. He knew how frightened we were. So we just kind of took a minute and chilled. By the time we were all settled, you know, we finally just said, "Caleb, you know, what did she look like? Who was that lady?" [00:15:26] And he said, "She had long hair and she had a long coat." And so we were like, okay. I think he felt, at that little age, felt pressed to give us answers. But, you know, we said, "Well, what color was her hair?" And he said red. And we said, "What color was her coat?" And he said white. That is truly the only... he never could remember anything. He was just oblivious to anything bad, and we were just overwhelmingly thankful for whoever that was that she helped him.
The only thing that made sense was that God had sent an angel to protect him, to protect our little boy that night. It was an event that we would share with many friends and acquaintances, always with a thankful heart and giving all glory to God.
You know, there's a verse in the Bible, Matthew 18:5, that says, "Whoever welcomes a child in my name welcomes me, for I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven." [00:16:49]
So that was our story for Caleb at that age, Laura. But there's more to that story. Caleb's profession of choice later in life would be to be a law enforcement agent and that was very hard for his mama to accept. Fast forward 32 years, the protests were going on, he was a police officer in one of the largest cities in the United States. He wouldn't call home very often unless something really tragic had happened in his line of work or if he felt like he was in danger and needed prayer.
When the riots or the protests were going on a year or two ago, he called home and said, "Hey, please have everybody pray for me because we're going to be downtown tonight and there are going to be protests and it could get ugly and I'm not sure where I'm going to be stationed." [00:18:02]
Obviously, I called my dear friends and family and knew that they would be praying for him. It was just a really dark day one day and it was when things were at their heaviest. I was walking on my treadmill praying for my boy and I just heard the Lord say, "Remember when I protected him with angels when he was four? I can still protect him when he's 36."
And I fell apart all over again knowing that God had Him in His hand and that I did not need to fear. So the mercies of the Lord never fail. They are new every morning and He is great in his faithfulness.
Laura Dugger: Wow, I had not heard that story come full circle. [00:19:04] Makes me emotional, but it also brings to life two scriptures that describe angels in both seasons. First, back to that story, when Caleb was four, that button was too high for him to reach. There was no way he could get in by himself. And it makes me think of Hebrews 1:14. And it says, "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?"
And I remember one time looking up maybe Blue Letter Bible, looking at each of those words, but ministering means to meet the needs of. So she came and she met that specific need that nobody else could meet at that time.
Then fast forward to Caleb in his thirties and having another encounter with angels as God shared with you. And it makes me think of a prayer that we pray for our daughters, Psalm 34:7, that says, "The angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him and he delivers them." [00:20:14]
Mary Beth Zimmerman: Amen. Yes. When Caleb decided to move to a larger city and become a police officer there, it was again, heart-wrenching for me. I prayed and God just gave me no weapon formed against my child will prevail. God has just reassured me through songs, the God of angel armies is always by your side.
The Lord just is so gracious, Laura, to His followers when we trust in Him. He comes through every time. That's why I love Jesus so very much because he's so very real in my life and He has been so faithful.
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. I love how you give glory where glory is due. You've already mentioned a few, but I just know His scripture is so meaningful to you. Are there any other certain passages that were impactful throughout your life? [00:21:22]
Mary Beth Zimmerman: Well, for Caleb, there are several. I have a letter that I wrote to him. It's in my Bible. Also, Dennis and I made a plaque for him when he graduated the academy with a verse of Psalm 141. And one of the verses are, "But my eyes are fixed on you, sovereign Lord. In you I take refuge. Do not give me over to death. Keep me safe from the traps set by evildoers, from the snares they have laid for me. Let the wicked fall into their own nets while I pass by in safety."
Laura Dugger: I love that. Thank you for sharing all of that scripture. It's always encouraging. You just clearly have a gift for encouraging people. There's just one creative example that happened recently in our lives. When one of our daughters broke her back, you delivered a huge goody bag full of gifts, which providentially arrived on this really difficult day where multiple of our family members were sick and we were feeling a bit discouraged. [00:22:32] Actually, a lot discouraged. Very discouraged.
But my favorite part was the note you wrote. I'm actually going to read it because it was so powerful and continues to be powerful in our lives. So you wrote, "Hi, [Sayloh?]. We are so sorry you are dealing with a broken back. We pray for you, asking God to help you be patient and pleasant while He is healing you. No doubt, you've got lots of people who love you praying and helping make this time go by a little faster. We know it's hard to be inconvenienced and patient at the same time. And God says in His word that when one part suffers, the whole body suffers. Sometimes this means our physical body and sometimes it can mean our body or community of the people we love. I thought maybe you'd like to be able to share some of these things in this bag with your family since they're all suffering with you. I bet they'd love to be included in receiving something for their part in helping you deal with your back. So take a look at what's in the bag and pick out your favorite thing or things and then share the rest with your sisters and mom and dad. I'll bet it will make all the hearts in your home happy. We love you and thank God for the way He's healing you and hope you're back to normal soon. Lots of love, DZ and MB." [00:24:00]
That ministered to us so much, especially to my mama heart, just thinking of Shiloh and Isla and Kessler who had also really suffered and gone overlooked when Sayloh was getting a lot of the attention at that time. But you recognized them, you honored each of us, and honored them for being such supportive sisters. So it was an incredibly touching gift.
Mary Beth Zimmerman: Oh, thank you.
Laura Dugger: All of that to say, you have a spiritual gift for encouraging others. And even in that note, you continue to teach us.
How did you find out about The Savvy Sauce? Did someone share this podcast with you? Hopefully, you've been blessed through the content. And now we would love to invite each of you to share these episodes with friends and help us spread the word about The Savvy Sauce. You can share today's episode or go back and choose any one of your other previous favorites to share. Thanks for helping us out. [00:25:00]
Well, Mary Beth, a few years later, God was about to take you on a journey of spiritual growth. So will you set the stage and share that story with us now?
Mary Beth Zimmerman: Sure. After I had had our three children, we lived like seven blocks from my parents and my mom would work second shift. So we spent, the kids and I... Well, Dennis was working also late hours at the car dealership at that time. So we had a lot of evening hours to spend together with my dad.
We would go for walks with Grandpa or we'd go get ice cream with him or we'd just hang out at his house. My mom and I got along great, but my dad, I adored. I just loved my dad. He loved me unconditionally. He taught by example. He was transparent. He wasn't afraid to tell me the mistakes that he'd made in life so that I wouldn't make the same ones. [00:26:06] He was a man of honor and of prayer. I love the memory of going to bed at night when I still lived at home with them and I would look in their room and they would be on their knees praying by their bedside.
He faithfully drove us to church every Sunday when I was a kid. He was a Sunday school teacher. He was esteemed in our community as a businessman and just loved by everybody. I was very proud to be called Bill Leman's daughter. I gained a lot of my identity from him being my dad.
Fast forward to 1992 on a beautiful day in May I was 30 years old and our boys were outside in our yard. I was with them playing baseball and we heard a siren coming and watched the police car fly by our house going towards the east. Then 20 minutes later the ambulance from Benson flew by our house going west. [00:27:12]
Little did we know that it was Grandpa and my dad being transported to the hospital until I got a call about an hour later. He had been involved in a car accident and he was not going to live to hear us tell him goodbye.
Needless to say, I knew I would be forever changed. My dad was the only one who understood all my highs and lows in life. He celebrated my highs and he helped me heal on the lows. So even as a little girl I still remember getting dressed up for church or somewhere special and mom would say, "Now go ask daddy how you look?" And I'd go twirl in front of him. He was just always there and he was always engaged in what I was doing. [00:28:12] We just had a really special relationship.
After the shock wore off that he was gone, I found much comfort in my siblings because he loved us all unconditionally and we had a very special bond in our family. We still do. We still get together regularly and there's nothing we wouldn't do for each other. I love my siblings so very much.
Our church family was wonderful and we had a very supportive small-town community in which we lived that came through in a big way also. But month after month I waited for the ache to go away of losing him. I never knew that grief could actually cause physical pain. But I had my heart truly hurt physically and I would find myself sighing through the day and truly like six or eight months I was still grieving for him pretty heavily. [00:29:24]
I was just thinking of all the things he was. He was my cheerleader. He was the one I could go get a bear hug from if I needed one. He was a sounding board and a confidant and he was my number one fan. You know, your husband is an awesome supportive companion like no other but your dad has a special place in your heart. Or he did in mine. I know yours does too.
Laura Dugger: He definitely does.
Mary Beth Zimmerman: So the emptiness that I felt continued for well over a year and I read books on grieving. I found tremendous comfort in music. I shared my thoughts with anyone who'd listen. I always prayed to God and I knew that my dad was with God and I knew that God was sovereign over His accident and I was never mad at God but I was just... I don't know. [00:30:26] I don't know why it took me so long to finally get one-on-one with God about my dad.
But there were just a lot of other things. My mom was hurting at the time. Here she was a widow and DZ was grieving alongside of me. He loved my dad about as much as I did and I was just... I don't know. I was just at a loss for what to do.
One morning while I was doing my devotions, I just started sobbing. I don't really recommend this or think that it's a good idea but it's really looking back after it happened I thought I really had a showdown with God that morning because I said, "If you're the only one who can fill this void in my heart, where are you? How does it feel to have that void filled? You know, what...? Come on!"
I found myself face down on our living room floor and I had just come to a wall and I was praying while I was doing my devotions and I got back up and I sat in my chair, my Bible was open and I just again heard God's voice not audibly but He controlled my thoughts. [00:31:59] And what I heard Him say was "I am your dad. I am your Father. I want you to view me like you viewed your dad. I want you to talk to me like you talked to your dad. I want you to trust me like you trusted your dad and most of all I want you to love me like you loved your dad."
I knew at that moment that God was someone I had really never known like He wanted me to know Him. I had realized that my dad was somewhat of an idol to me over the next months and that I had always put God in second or third place next to my dad and to my husband because they were always there for me. They always supplied what I needed.
So I had been converted for 10 years but I was freshly being introduced to who God was that day and my life would never be the same. I was very humbled and I knew that I was changed. And as I finished reading my Bible that morning the words were different. [00:33:09] I actually felt like God and I were having a conversation.
I heard His voice. I knew He was with me. I knew He wanted me to put my full trust in Him. I became as adoring of Him as I was of my dad. I came to the full belief that He and His word were truly one because after that, when I read the Bible, it was just 100% meaningful. I don't know maybe before I was reading it more out of duty but He was communicating with me like He had never done before. I wanted to kiss my Bible because I wanted to kiss God. I would have kissed my dad had he been there.
But from that point on the word really would become my counselor and God would continue to teach me and heal me where my dad left off. He would bring purity and renewal to my heart like my dad never could. [00:34:18]
I don't believe that God took my dad to show me Himself but I do believe that He knew that I would find Him then because that's when I truly searched for Him with my whole heart. So just as Jesus cried out in Hebrews 5:7-8, He offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save Him." Comfort in my case. He was heard because of His reverent submission. Although He was a son He learned obedience from what He suffered. And He also knew that after I had suffered a little while He Himself would restore me and make me strong, firm, and steadfast because He is the God of all grace.
A kind of funny thing happened later when I had a full understanding of that incident of why God allowed that for me. Because I did. I said, "Lord you're so good to me for sharing yourself like that. I mean that's supernatural." [00:35:25] It wasn't but a few days later I was reading I think it's in Exodus or Deuteronomy where He said, "I showed myself to Moses as a friend by the name of Jehovah. And that's what I did for you. I am your friend. You can call me Daddy."
I mean, there were just several things like that. My life really did change that day and my perspective changed and my understanding changed.
But anyway, later when I sang the song The Solid Rock, I had sung that since I was a child. Knew all the words. But there's a part in that that says "my hope is built on nothing less nothing, less than Jesus blood and righteousness. And I dare not trust the sweetest frame." That sweetest frame was my dad that I was trusting in. So I dare not trust the sweetest frame but wholly lean on Jesus' name. [00:36:35]
And just a lot of songs and the word, the Bible, just took on deep authentic meaning after that. And it's never changed. I mean, I just keep growing and learning more and He keeps revealing more of Himself. It's just a beautiful walk that I want to share with everybody that I know. And I want them to experience that too.
Laura Dugger: Wow. I love all of that for so many reasons. You make me think of a special time when I got to interview my dad about also losing his dad. I'll put a link to that in the show notes as well because that was a special episode. But Grandpa Leman really was so special and yet what the Lord has taught you is available to all of us. He loves to talk to his children.
It's hard to describe and articulate but the Holy Spirit really sounds like He made Himself known to you and real. [00:37:35] And He does live inside of us if we are believers. And so that is so helpful to hear how it's played out in your journey. So thank you for sharing.
Mary Beth Zimmerman: Yes. A lot of times people... if I would say, oh, God said this or God said that... you know, even one of my siblings she said, you know, when you say God said this it, just kind of sounds weird because like people say, When I talk to God that's praying. But when you say God talk to me that's just hard for me to understand. And so it's available. I don't know why He does things to some people and not others but He does speak to us through the Holy Spirit and we can hear Him if we listen.
Laura Dugger: Even that transparency that's so helpful because, like you said, what He's even taught you and it's from John, in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. [00:38:41] And so when we read the Bible, those are His words and we get to hear from Him absolutely in that way. So I appreciate all the stories and scriptures you've shared so far.
What other encouragement would you like to leave with us today?
Mary Beth Zimmerman: Well, an impactful scripture for me is Psalm 139. The whole Psalm. It's very affirming to who we are. My love language is words of affirmation. So I love it when God gets specific and says this is who you are and this is what you mean and this is what I do for you.
So to know that He knit me together in my mother's womb and to know that He knit my children together in my womb, how more intimate can you get with your creator and your Father in heaven? That's the impactful verse.
The best encouragement I think I can leave is to leave nothing left unsaid. [00:39:42] Life has so many highs and lows and I think it brings joy to our Father in heaven when we acknowledge our disappointments and celebrate our blessings and thank God for both of those.
Ecclesiastes 5:19 says, When God gives any man wealth and possessions and enables him to enjoy them to accept his lot and be happy in his work this is the gift of God. He seldom reflects on the days of his life because God keeps him occupied with gladness of heart.
In my Bible, in the margin I have "this is my life goal. This is my life theme" because He is with us in awe in the joys and the sorrows. It's easy not to reflect on the bad parts because He keeps us occupied with gladness of heart because of Himself in our lives. So that's my encouragement. [00:40:48]
Laura Dugger: I love it. Kind of along those same lines you are a faithful supporter and listener of The Savvy Sauce so you already know that "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So, MB, is my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Mary Beth Zimmerman: My savvy sauce would be spending time in God's word every day. If it's hard for you to understand it like it was for me at age 19 when I became a believer, then ask God for understanding. He even says that in his word. He will give us wisdom and understanding if we ask. Read the word every day. Read the entire book and you will discover the meaning of your life.
Laura Dugger: Thank you so much for that. I just learned so much from your walk and relationship with Jesus and I love your sense of humor and your willingness just to impart this wisdom and encouragement to each of us. So thank you very much for being my guest. [00:41:59]
Mary Beth Zimmerman: It has been a pleasure. I love you, Laura.
Laura Dugger: I love you too, MB.
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:43:02] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.
Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:44:02] And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:45:07] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Oct 07, 2024
Monday Oct 07, 2024
242. Stories Series: He Gives and Takes Away with Joyce Hodel
**Transcription Below**
Philippians 1:21 (NIV) "For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain."
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
- What are some of your highlights of raising children and parenting?
- Will you share how life unexpectedly and drastically changed on July 3rd, 2009?
- How has God sustained you through this loss?
Other Episode Mentioned on The Savvy Sauce:
82 Traveling with Your Family with Katie Mueller
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at Lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.
Joyce Hodel is my guest today. We are originally from the same small town in Central Illinois, a farming community of 2,000 people, and our families have known each other all my life.
Joyce is an exceptional woman with a zest for life, and she's going to share her story now of loss and hope.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Joyce.
Joyce Hodel: Thank you for having me, and I hope we can just talk friend to friend. [00:01:17]
Laura Dugger: Well, let's just begin by going back a bit. When did you surrender your life to Jesus?
Joyce Hodel: I have always known Jesus, and that credit goes to my parents, grandparents. I feel like I've had a legacy of faithful people in my life that just gave me stability. They were believers, and so right from the beginning, church and parents have been credit to them that they believed.
When I was 17, it's always a struggle to surrender yourself, and I was very busy in high school and probably was distracted and didn't want to focus so much on my spiritual life. But one night, I had a dream. And I remember in the dream, the newspaper came out, and it said, "Three days to the end of the world." [00:02:17] I was frightened. I woke up, and I was sweating, literally sweating, physically sweating, and I thought, "Oh, this is what hell is going to feel like. I've got to do something."
But I just tried to forget it, and I laid back down again. The next day, I went to work. I worked at the nursing home. It was the summer out of my senior year. That day when I got home, I did tell my mom that I had that dream, and she guided me, instructed me. She said, "Well, I just remember a pastor saying one time that sometimes we just need a knock on our head to make us move, to take a position."
And so that day at work, this little old lady came into my kitchen where I worked, and she said, "Could I have a glass of apple juice?" And I said, "Sure." I have done this hundreds of times, but I walked over to the big cooler, and instead of turning the corner, I ran straight into the wall, and I backed up, and I thought, "Mom, that's my knock on the head." [00:03:31] So from that point on, I felt that God was definitely calling me to walk with Him, and I have never turned back.
Laura Dugger: Wow. I had never heard that before. That is so incredible. He's so personal and unique in the way that He calls each of us.
Joyce Hodel: He is.
Laura Dugger: There's also a very important man that came into your life named Steve. Do you remember the first time that you met Steve?
Joyce Hodel: I don't remember the exact first time I met him. I was working in the summer. I was a teacher, so in the summer, I would be a waitress at a little restaurant in town called Raleigh's. And him and his brothers would come in for coffee or breakfast, and they were the kind that teased, and so I always enjoyed them, especially Steve. I loved his humor, his dry sense of humor. [00:04:29]
He then was converted at about age 29, and so he attended my church, and I met him. You know, he would travel with all the kids, all the young group, and so we just kind of got to know each other that way. I think we both were attracted, and we just had a fun, easygoing relationship.
But I started to think about him more. I remember him asking me things, kind of just... this is just Steve. He came to school once while I was teaching in the morning, and I said, "What are you doing here?" I don't know if he was checking me out or what.
But I remember when he finally asked me to be his wife, he came over for the first time. I had said yes, and he came over to my house, and I said, "What? Why me?" [00:05:29] He gave me an interesting answer. He said, "You seem happy most of the time. You are a good conversationist, and he was more of a quiet, stand-by-the-wall person. And he said, "I watched your mother, and I liked what I saw." And I thought that was so deep that he watched my mother.
Now, the joke on him was, I am more like my dad. So I'm glad my mother had a rich personality, but I kind of had the personality of my dad. But I guess that's what he based. And he knew I was a Christian, you know, that was part of it. But those are the three answers he gave me. And I thought, "How interesting!" Then we had an engagement, and yeah, got married. [00:06:29]
Laura Dugger: And then progressing in your story, next step, you were blessed with children. What was your experience like becoming a mother?
Joyce Hodel: Okay, when I was teaching when I was single, I really enjoyed the ornery little guys. And so I thought, "Oh, I think I'm always going to have boys." Didn't know anything. You know, I grew up with two other sisters and a brother. But when I was growing up, I played football out in the yard with the guys and stuff. So I just was kind of, yeah, into little guys, active little boys. And I ended up having three girls.
We lived on a farm. And I am so thankful for my girls now. I think because I had two sisters, and we are very close, we were all in high school together, senior, junior, freshman. They are my best friends. We shared a bedroom. And so because of that, I wanted my kids close in age. I feel like I have the same thing in my girls. [00:07:32] They have the same thing that I had as I was growing up. And it was very special.
Laura Dugger: Well, and some people may even remember your firstborn daughter. She's been a guest before on The Savvy Sauce. I just told you before we recorded, I was actually re-listening to her fabulous episode on traveling with family. So I can add a link of that in today's show notes.
But Joyce, when you reflect back on raising them, what are some of the highlights of raising your daughters?
Joyce Hodel: I have always believed it was vitally important to be there for my kids. So when Katie was born, I was done teaching for a while. I thought I'm going to concentrate on them. I don't want anyone else to raise my children. You have a window of time. It was very important to me, vitally important to be the first voice in the lives of my kids.
Highlights of raising children and parenting. [00:08:33] I can tell you I have enjoyed every single stage. Having fun with them, being a teacher, I guess. Maybe I have ideas. You can call them creative. But we would have Tipsy Tuesday. And I told them at the supper table they could sit wherever they wanted. Usually, people have regular spots, dad and mom too. That was such a simple thing that they just enjoyed. So they would always take Dad's seat or something. That was one thing we did.
We had Family Game Night often where they each got to choose a game. And they were little. Sometimes it was just button, button, who's got the button. Old, old game. I encouraged them.
We would have rainy-day picnics, wintertime picnics, just on the floor of our kitchen or in the living room. Anything you can do out of the ordinary seems to work for kids. [00:09:33]
Think outside the box. Always encourage them, help them with their homework. Encourage them to do the hard thing. Don't always take the easy way. Push yourself.
I wanted to train them to work as my mother had trained me. We had job sticks. Every Saturday they pulled sticks out of the jar, and they were hoping for one that was easy. But it didn't always work that way. I had like 15 of them. Just things like sweep off the porch or clean the bathroom, whatever. So we did that.
We have done a lot of traveling over the U.S. and Europe and Africa. If I asked my kids, my girls, what was the most important thing or what kept our family together and close, I think it would be traveling together, camping together. Always planned a big trip.[00:10:34] And so that's where Katie got her love of traveling because I loved it too.
I loved each phase and stage, and I love it now when I can talk to them as adults. Sometimes they're your mentors. It's not always me mentoring them. They teach me now that they're older.
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Laura Dugger: Joyce, even talking with you now, your smile and your joy is just so natural. It seems to just bubble out of you. But you're also not untouched by tragedy. So will you share how life unexpectedly and drastically changed on July 3rd, 2009?
Joyce Hodel: Yes, it's been over 14 years, so it's easier to talk about it now. But just to give you a little background of how God prepares you. The night before Steve was killed, I was out in my yard and a neighbor walked by. [00:13:39] We got talking about some happenings that had come out in the newspaper, or, I don't know, we just took rabbit trails down that there are times children are born that are kind of born late or maybe handicapped or challenged and you wonder how you're going to navigate through that.
And we were talking about certain women in our church or in our community that had children that, late in life, that, you know, my neighbor said that lost their husband. So there's a reason for those children. And I said to her... now on a side note, I have never said this to anyone in my life. The thought came from heaven, I think. But I said, "I will probably have a daughter that is on the autistic spectrum and I think she will always live with us." [00:14:40] And I said at the end of that conversation, "I wonder if I'm going to lose my husband early." And the next day he was killed.
And I have never forgotten that I said that. In fact, this neighbor said, "I can't believe you said that." And I said, "That's just how it was." So that's a little background.
We had been invited to a friend's house for supper that night and then we went up to the fireworks. It was on July 3rd. It was the tradition of Roanoke to have it the day before, a big city one. It is customary for people just to put their chairs anywhere. We were in the street. The men went to the car show but then came back.
At the finale, I remember we were holding hands and the finale shot up. And that is exactly when we heard a huge roar of an engine. [00:15:42] It just happened real quick. Didn't know what happened. But an older lady, she was about 89, first time she had been at the fireworks. She wanted to beat the traffic and so she was going to head out right at the finale and she stepped on the gas instead of the brake. And so she plowed all of us down. And Steve just happened to be caught under her car. So she ran over his chest and his abdomen.
And then she was just frozen in place in the car. 15 guys came around the car and lifted the car off of his body and then they pulled him out. From that point on, I just can say what I've heard. We all were hit. But he is the one that was caught under the car. I had a big wound on my foot. My head had to be stapled. I felt the car's wheels go over my leg. I remember that. [00:16:45] But I think his larger body just lifted it up and it didn't break my leg or anything.
So my sister and myself, we were all in the emergency room but we weren't as severe as him. We were transported by ambulance and he was taken by Life Flight. My prayer in the ambulance going, I wasn't sure where everybody was, but I heard the helicopter go overhead and I said to the medic, "Is that my husband?" And he said, "Yes." And I said, "Oh, he must be bad if he's in the helicopter." And he said, "Yes, he is."
And I remember praying, which was real odd for me, too. I said, "Oh, Lord, if he... excuse me. If he can't be what he wants to be, you take him." Because it would have been very hard for Steve to stop farming, and he would have felt like he was a burden to me. [00:17:46] So that was my prayer. And so then when we got to the hospital, the doctor came in and said they tried to save him, but they couldn't.
There were so many things that happened that I know God's hand was. They had practiced with the helicopter in the Roanoke field two weeks prior to that. Never had that been done before. They worked on him. My sister knew this because she was watching the fireworks from way back. And she said the helicopter turned off for 20 minutes. And it never turns off unless they're not going to transport them. They're gone already.
And she said after 20 minutes, she said, "All of a sudden it started again and they took him." They worked for 20 minutes and got a pulse." And I have been thankful for that small detail ever since because the girls and I got to see him again and touch him. [00:18:48]
And if he would have died on the field, we would have seen him in the casket, and that's it. So it was a real closure for us at the hospital. We got to be in a room with him. He was gone, but you could still ruffle his hair and touch him, and talk to him. So that was a real blessing in our life.
Laura Dugger: The helicopter stopped, but then they were able to get a pulse and you were at the same hospital, and your girls came and met you there.
Joyce Hodel: My entire family came. I remember them wheeling me out of the emergency room to go over and see him, and it was just kind of like a circle of angels or people that loved you, both sides of the family. We're just all there, nieces and nephews, and with sad faces. I mean, I think they knew something was severe. It was something I'll never forget. [00:19:48]
And then I stayed the night, and they patched me up, and my daughter stayed with me. Katie had just had a new baby, a two-week-old baby. And that's another detail that, to me, God took care of. She was due the time of the accident, and she said, "Mom, look at that. God made that baby come early, so I would be... you know, the worst part would be over, I guess, the birth and everything."
So, yeah, he just takes care of details that we have no idea. He's working in the shadows and the background all the time. There is never a detail that is overlooked.
I remember telling my daughter after the fact, days later, we talked a lot on the phone, and I said, "Oh...." It was something in me. I never wanted a loved one to die on a holiday or near a holiday, because I thought every time that holiday comes around, you're just going to be sad again. [00:20:54] So that was a thing for me.
And I was telling my daughter that on the phone once, and she said, "Mom, it was the 4th of July. Dad is free." And I have never forgotten that, that one holiday that Dad is free from all his... He was due to have open-heart surgery, Laura. But the doctor that spring... he had told the doctor that he couldn't do that because it was farming season, planting season. And he just couldn't have open-heart surgery.
Laura Dugger: What a true farmer.
Joyce Hodel: A true farmer that just didn't want his life interrupted. But I thought God knew the future and thought, "Nope, you don't have to go through that." He had a pin and 13 screws in his ankle. He had broken it a couple years before that. He had diabetes. So those things have just made me understand and realize that he was free from his worn-out body, and it was his time. [00:22:03]
Laura Dugger: Well, he was free on Independence Day.
Joyce Hodel: Yes.
Laura Dugger: And we all yearn for that day to be with Jesus in glory. And yet, being left back here at that point, was there anything meaningful that as you reflect back, it really stands out about what loved ones did to surround you through all these seasons of grief?
Joyce Hodel: Definitely. I just had family and friends, and it was good therapy to go back to school again. In August, you know, that was a place that Steve... he wasn't there. And so I wasn't always reminded. It was just good therapy.
I always prayed for healthy grieving. I would talk to the social worker, psychologist at school. You know, we talked a lot. And so I feel that I took one day at a time. I didn't look too far ahead, and then I thought, then I'll do tomorrow. [00:23:04]
God gave me little hugs along the way, if you want to call them. I do want to tell you something that happened to me. It was about six days after he died, and I was sleeping. I had a tough time sleeping, but this night I woke up, and it was more of a not really a dream. I would call it a vision. No one can take it away from me. It was so real.
I woke up, and I heard wings in my room, angels' wings. It was the flutter of wings. They were right to the right of me. Katie had told me once on the phone... I was holding his hand at the 4th of July, and I said, "Oh, I wish I would have kissed him. I wish I would have had one last kiss."
So the flutter of wings, Steve was right above me, his face, and I remember reaching up and him reaching down, and we had a light kiss. [00:24:11] And there was a bright light in my room, and he was gone. I got up right away, and I called my daughter, I said, "You wouldn't believe what happened to me." I've never had anything so impactful happen, I thought, that the God of the universe that has so many troubles to take care of, He gave me a final kiss, and then He was gone.
That's something that was very personal to me. I didn't know whether to say it, but if it can, God is such a personal God. He gives you what you need when you need it.
Laura Dugger: I am a wreck hearing this. That is beautiful. I am so grateful you shared that. Even the scripture I was in this morning was just talking about telling God's marvelous deeds to the next generation. And Joyce, you were telling that is a marvelous deed of our loving Father. [00:25:15] So thank you for sharing that.
How did you find out about The Savvy Sauce? Did someone share this podcast with you? Hopefully, you've been blessed through the content. And now we would love to invite each of you to share these episodes with friends and help us spread the word about The Savvy Sauce. You can share today's episode, or go back and choose any one of your other previous favorites to share. Thanks for helping us out.
Was there any other special way? When you talk about God hugs, is there anything along the way that stands out as something that He showed you, "I haven't forgotten you. I'm still with you"?
Joyce Hodel: Right. I think you have to saturate yourself with the word. The word speaks to you. You know, there is an answer and a comfort for everything that you're feeling. Is there a specific verse or something? I always found that what I needed at the time, He gave to me freely, whether it's in the Psalms or... [00:26:20]
I remember the sermon the first time I went to church. It was a visiting pastor. And he said something I wrote down in my journal. "Everything is on schedule." And I just remembered when you think that it's not what you expected, it's a mistake. Why in the world did that lady... was she up there? Why was I there on sitting on the street?
You know, everything's on schedule. There isn't anything that happens that is coincidence or that God isn't aware of. And so, yeah, my family and my friends just surrounded me.
When you believe in the sovereignty of God, it lessens your suffering. It lessens anything you are going through if you believe. He is such a complete God. He is over everything. Even though when we think we control or we do something, it's not you. He put it all together. [00:27:21] He set it up.
I found that gratitude, look at what you have and not what you've lost, is very healing. You have to self-talk sometimes. You know, it says to take every thought captive. I found myself doing that. Just take a thought when the evil one tries to lie to you and discourage you. You just don't listen to that evil voice. You take it captive and you go to the word and it turns you around.
Laura Dugger: That even makes me wonder what was that process of forgiveness like for that older woman?
Joyce Hodel: You know, Laura, I never was real angry with her. She came to our house a couple days later. My girls maybe didn't understand. But I feel like grace is given when you need it. [00:28:22] People would say to me, "How can you be not angry? How can you be...? And I just thought, "Well, you don't need the grace." He doesn't give it to you. But I've got a whole load of it." And I do give all credit to God. I never was really angry with her.
25 News came out, 31 News. They came into our house and the reporter wanted to know what I felt about this woman. Well, at the time, I had a 90-year-old mother. They wanted a shock treatment. They wanted you to blame someone. And so I hope that God gave me the grace to say it wasn't intentional. It was an accident. She didn't mean to do that. She just got flustered and stepped on the gas. And I said it could happen to anyone. So that was a process that I really didn't have to deal too hard with. So I'm thankful.
Laura Dugger: That's incredible. And yes, it does point to His grace. Joy is a part of your name in Joyce, and that does exude out of you. And yet, going through something like this, was joy able to return into your life again? [00:29:41]
Joyce Hodel: It was. My sister asked me once, what was the hardest time of the week? What was the loneliest time? And I said, "Friday night." We always used to go out because after the school was over, it was kind of like date night. We'd always go out. Megan would go with us or we'd meet somebody. I said, "That's probably the hardest time I look at and I think, Oh, I'm not going to have that again."
So to this day, I go out with my sisters on Friday night. I mean, they just started that. My brother made me 11 CDs of music. He had lost his daughter years earlier, and I think he knew that music filled my house. Music about heaven. Music about tough things that people go through. Hope.
I think music is the voice of hope. So I just filled my home with music and it strengthened me. And so family and friends, you know, whether you went for lunch or coffee or prayers. [00:30:47]
I had a teacher tell me at school, and it wasn't one that I was real close to, but she told me she prayed for me every single day for two years. And I was humbled by that. So you don't know where all the strength is coming from, but it's coming. I am part of a wonderful church family and my own extended family and intermediate family.
Laura Dugger: Well, and it's a good reminder. Even hearing this today, we can still be praying for one another, building each other up. You're such a role model. You're so inspiring with the way you walked through this. Is there any other encouragement that you would want to offer, whether someone is going through their own heartache and loss or a loved one of somebody who is? What would you like to say to them?
Joyce Hodel: I think everybody has a different journey of the way they carry on. I would tell anybody to, like you say, always go to the word and pray. [00:31:49] But sometimes... there were times I couldn't pray. No words came. And then I just said, Okay, Lord, you're going to have to pray for me. You say the words. You give me the strength that I don't even know what to ask for. I feel like He always gives more than He takes away. He is a giver, not a taker.
Keep busy. School helped a lot, just being busy. That was something that I needed to do. If you sit around in the darkness and emptiness, you're only perpetuating that. So go out, even if you don't feel like asking someone... It's real difficult. When you are a widow, you don't have a partner, it's difficult to call people, to initiate things, to be the aggressive one because you think, Oh, they're just going to do it because they feel sorry for me. I don't want to obligate them. [00:32:49] So you wait for somebody to call you. But that is probably not the way to be.
You have to kind of push yourself and get yourself out there and try to not be a miserable person that nobody wants to be around. I do feel like his self-talk regulates your out-of-control emotions. It just kind of gets you focused and thinking ahead. Or just today, not even ahead. Just, I can do today. I can do this hour. Don't know what's coming tomorrow, and nobody else does either.
I feel that He has put me in a place where I had a lot of love and friends and family that carried me. Or it's kind of like Jesus carrying you through them, and they do. And so I hope to do that for others. I think everything that happens, happens so we can pass it on, so we can do what has been done for us to comfort someone else. [00:34:04]
Laura Dugger: Well, and you do that so well. When you talk about making sure you're not a miserable person to be around, you are so far at the opposite of that and always have been. I've known you my whole life, and you're cheerful and exuberant. That is such a good challenge for each of us, regardless of why it's difficult to reach out and initiate.
I love that push to do that because that is love in action. And people would miss out so much if they didn't get to hang out with you because you're so enjoyable.
Joyce Hodel: Oh, Lord. I also think that the forgiveness, you always need to forgive something, whether it's something somebody says or does to you, or even in your mind, if you've conjured up something that they didn't even mean, whether it's on your screen or whatever. That forgiving and forgetting is a major step in a healthy outlook. [00:35:08] It only makes you miserable. We think it's going to hurt the other guy, but it doesn't. You've heard that. It only makes you miserable. So just try to think that they didn't do that on purpose, they don't dislike me, and just show them love. Shower them with love.
Laura Dugger: Well, I think that's even modeling what you're talking about with the self-talk. Rather than listening to ourselves or really listening to the enemy, you're being proactive to fight against that, to talk against that, even in forgiveness. I know I've told you that I've always thought I love that joy is in your name because it just comes out of you.
We've covered some weighty topics, and I'd love to end with a more lighthearted note. You know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question for you today, Joyce, what's your savvy sauce? [00:36:08]
Joyce Hodel: I think you always need to remember. I journal so I can remember. You know, to write this down. You think you're going to remember, but you don't. All the details... I have a diary that's just a line a day, and so you can look back. It's a five-year one that if you don't want to get bogged down with writing a whole bunch, just write something significant, something important, something you want to remember.
So I think God always wants His people to remember, and so if you do that, whether it's by journaling or just somebody jogging your memory, I feel that His faithfulness will come through. And that is what you want to remember. That no matter what happens, He's always with you. He's faithful. He's there.
Laura Dugger: He's there. You have shared that so well in such a personal way, and I'm so grateful for your relationship with the Lord, that you get to see Steve again in heaven someday, and that you were so generous to be transparent with each of us, to offer each of us hope, and to pass along the comfort that you've been comforted with. [00:37:29] So Joyce, it has been a sincere pleasure to host you. Thank you for being my guest.
Joyce Hodel: Thank you for being a good hostess.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. [00:38:28]
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.
Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. [00:39:32] You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. [00:40:30] Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Sep 30, 2024
Monday Sep 30, 2024
241. Stories Series: From the Mission Field, Experiencing God in the Little and the Big with Patty Sommer
**Transcription Below**
Psalms 7:11-12 (AMP) "I will [solemnly] remember the deeds of the Lord; Yes, I will [wholeheartedly] remember Your wonders of old. I will meditate on all Your works And thoughtfully consider all Your [great and wondrous] deeds."
Other Savvy Sauce Episodes Mentioned:
204 Charlotte Mason Inspired Mini-Series: A Delectable Education with Emily Kiser
Patreon 55 Charlotte Mason Inspired Mini-Series: Embracing a Robust Life with Nicole Williams
Patreon 56 Charlotte Mason Inspired Mini-Series: Imparting Morals to Our Children with Liz Cottrill
Questions and Topics We Cover:
- What miracles, big and small, have you witnessed from God throughout your life?
- What is something we may not know that is true of many missionary families?
- What does a typical day look like in your world?
Patty Sommer is a Michigander by birth, though she has now lived in Ghana, West Africa for longer than she lived in Michigan. She is a follower of Jesus, wife to her best friend John for 21 years, and mother of 4 girls. She recently came to the realization that she is no longer a "young mom," but squarely in middle age, learning how to mother all her kiddos well, with her oldest 7,000 miles away at school in Tennessee and her youngest just finishing 4th grade. Her family is also in a transition in Ghana, as they are stepping out of a church plant that is very close to being autonomous and preparing to start a new one. Patty loves discipling young wives and mothers, and getting to share all God has taught her. She is a bookworm but does almost all her reading at night when the house is quiet. She loves spending time in nature, studying educational philosophy, and writing. She is currently seeking to master the art of sourdough bread.
Connect with Patty:
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Thank you to the Sue Neihouser team for sponsoring this episode. If you're looking to buy or sell a home this season, make sure you reach out to Sue at (309) 229-8831. Sue would love to walk alongside you as you unlock new doors.
We are continuing our series of stories today with Patty Sommer as my guest. Patty loves to lift up God's name by sharing his faithfulness in her life and telling people of His personal acts of love. I think you're going to be very encouraged by her stories.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Patty.
Patty Sommer: Thank you so much. It's such a joy to be here.
Laura Dugger: Well, we'd all love to get to know you a little bit better first, so will you begin by telling us a bit about yourself? [00:01:19]
Patty Sommer: Okay. So I was born and raised in Michigan by two Kentuckians, which is kind of a funny thing. They had just moved to Michigan, a young couple. And being from Kentucky, they were very nervous about moving to the far north, they thought. That's a place that for many years I called home.
Then in 2003, the Lord called my husband and I to Ghana, West Africa as missionaries. And we have now been here almost 21 years, which is hard to believe. I was raised in a Christian home, as was my husband, which has been such a huge blessing for us as missionaries.
Our parents and our grandparents on both sides have always been so supportive of us and so excited that we've been called to share the gospel with people here.
I have four girls, from 19 all the way down to nine. And we love learning and growing together, and we're so thankful for what God has called us to here in Ghana.
Laura Dugger: Wow. Was this something that was on your radar from a young age, or what was it that led you and your family to the mission field? [00:02:24]
Patty Sommer: Okay, so I actually did not like the idea of missions when I was young. I actually went through a time in my early teens where I really was feeling a leading, a prompting that way. I said, "Lord, I'll do anything but that."
Even though I had been raised meeting many missionaries, my parents had always been very positive, I just couldn't imagine leaving my home country and leaving my family and going halfway around the world to another place. So for about two or three years, I really struggled with that.
When missionaries would come to our home church and visit, I would try to pay no attention. I'd actually close my eyes during their little slide presentations and things. I really wanted nothing to do with it. When I was 14 years old, my best friend's big sister and her husband left for the mission field of Cambodia. And they were the first people I had personally known to go to the mission field.
We were at a summer camp, and actually this new missionary, her father, was the one leading devotions one night around the fire, and he was just talking about being willing to do what God asked us to do. [00:03:32] And I remember just this internal battle. The Holy Spirit just questioning me, would I be willing to surrender to what He had for me?
I remember distinctly saying this really silly statement now that I look back at it, that, "Okay, God, I will surrender to go to the mission field, but I know I'll be miserable the rest of my life," because I knew that's what it was going to be like.
But after I made that commitment really everything changed for me. The Holy Spirit really began to work in my heart, and He changed it, that instead of being a thing I never wanted to do, it being the thing I wanted to do with all of my life. And He worked that in me and I went off to Bible college. I met my husband there, and he, at the time that we met, he already knew that the Lord wanted him on the mission field.
We actually went on a college trip, and we came to the mission field of Ghana as a college trip. And that's how the Lord really began working in both of our hearts to come here as missionaries. [00:04:32]
Laura Dugger: Wow. Let's see. So then the timeline, so that was the first visit there, and you were already married then when you actually moved, and you did not have children at this point.
Patty Sommer: So we came on a college trip. It was actually through the university that we were attending, and so we weren't even dating at the time. We were acquaintances. Not long after that, we actually started dating and then started praying about where we should go.
So my husband actually came... We weren't married yet. He came back on another trip just to pray about if this was really the place for us or if that had just been, you know, the place that you see really affect you. I was back in the States and just praying also. And when he came back from the trip, he said, "No, I think this is where the Lord wants us."
So he graduated from college, and we were in Ghana... We got married, I think, two weeks after he graduated, and we were in Ghana a year later. So really quick transition out of college.
Laura Dugger: Wow. And what kind of missionary work did you go over to do in Ghana? [00:05:35]
Patty Sommer: So we do church planting. Along with church planting, of course, missionaries end up wearing lots and lots of hats, I've learned. But our primary role is church planters. That also includes training of nationals. We do literacy work. We teach in the public schools and do Bible clubs there.
We are actually running a small library that we're slowly working on building to help people have access to more literature and things like that. But our primary role is as church planters.
Laura Dugger: That all sounds so fascinating. You're right, that is a lot of hats to wear. But then also, when you moved to West Africa, did that influence your decision to eventually home-educate your children?
Patty Sommer: My degree is in L.Ed., and so I had this beautiful idea of coming here and setting up my own little classroom. I thought that was the best way to go. That's what we started with. I mean, I even put a bulletin board up in my house, as funny as that sounds, because that's how I'd been trained. [00:06:39]
Then I brought over an entire curriculum. I mean, everything was going to be just like in a school classroom. And then the Lord really started working in our hearts and really changing that up because of a few different things. So homeschooling, I knew, would always be something I'd have to do, but how we've gone about it has changed quite a bit.
Laura Dugger: So was there eventually a philosophy that you chose to follow, or do you want to elaborate on that journey?
Patty Sommer: Sure. So my oldest daughter is actually dyslexic, and I did not know that, of course. So we started right out, and, I mean, I drill it and kill it. I mean, we did the little blend ladders and everything exactly how I'd learned as a teacher, and we were not making a whole lot of progress.
And I kept thinking, "Well, you know, we just aren't working hard enough." Every day we would get done with school, and I'd think this isn't what I thought school was going to look like with my child." And so we just began to really pray, weren't sure what to do. [00:07:42] Nothing seemed to be working. I mean, I started right out at age four and so many things. And not that there's anything wrong with those things, but it just wasn't working for our family.
So we actually went back on a furlough when our oldest daughter was 7 going on 8, and we put her in the school actually that I grew up in and had taught him for a while before we came to the field. And I thought, "Okay, this teacher is great. She'll fix all my daughter's problems." Well, that was definitely the wrong way to look at it.
The teacher came to us just a few weeks into the school year, and she said, "Your daughter has dyslexia." And I said, "Okay, so what does that mean? How do I fix this?" Because in my mind, I consider that a problem. And she said, "Well, if you were living in the States, you know, we'd get you right in with a reading specialist." And she gave me the whole list. And she said, "But since you're going back to Ghana, I don't know what to tell you."
And so I went to my husband, I said, "What are we going to do?" And he said, "You've got this time. We're back on furlough to figure out what the Lord wants us to do. [00:08:43] I trust that you'll make a good decision."
I had already been digging a little bit, trying to find, you know, answers to what was happening in our home and in our school room. And I just kept coming across the name Charlotte Mason. And every time I read something about Charlotte Mason or Charlotte Mason homeschooling, it really struck a chord with me.
From the pictures I saw and the stories I read, I thought, "This is, I think, what I'm looking for." And so I just began to pray, and the Lord just opened up door after door. I met people along the way. And so when we came back, my daughter had just turned eight, my oldest daughter, and at that point, she could not put together two-letter words.
I said, "Okay, Lord, you're going to have to help us with this." And we dove into the Charlotte Mason philosophy of education as best I knew how, which wasn't really great at the time and we just began making tiny steps. And when she was 10 1⁄2, she was able to read her first book on her own. [00:09:42]
But more than that, it became the philosophy that our family needed. It has been such a gift to our family in so many ways, I can't even count.
But the Lord used something that I saw as a difficulty at the time to actually lead us to something that we just absolutely love and encourage everyone who's interested or struggles with any of these things to at least take a look at Charlotte Mason's philosophy of education.
Laura Dugger: We did do a series previously on The Savvy Sauce, and I'll make sure and add those links in the show notes if anybody wants to dive in deeper. But we are having a few more conversations on this podcast about homeschooling, and I'm so intrigued. So if you could, I know this is really difficult, but if you could just boil down a few tenets of the Charlotte Mason philosophy that have been most beneficial to your family, what are a few points that you'd share?
Patty Sommer: One of the very first things that really struck me, Laura, is that because my daughter couldn't read, she couldn't do the work. [00:10:48] So much of a box curriculum... and there are some good ones out there. I'm not saying that box curriculums are bad, but they really are geared for children who read very, very quickly and can comprehend what they're reading, and can write quickly. And she could do none of those things.
So I felt like using a workbook, she just kept getting farther and farther behind, and I had to do everything with her and everything for her.
When I read about Charlotte Mason's ideas of narration, which is the idea of a passage being read, and if the child cannot read it being read to them, and then the child narrating back or telling back what they have heard, that just really struck me that I thought that that could work with my daughter.
My daughter is very artistically talented, and so even the idea that at times she could do drawn narrations and there wasn't a huge emphasis right away on her having to write a lot upfront right away.
So that really helped Carrie also, in that she didn't have to try to take all the decoding she was having to do and then try to make her hands do that and think of how to spell things. [00:11:57] She could just speak back to me what she was learning. And I began to see fruit from it very, very quickly.
She didn't read immediately. I had hoped that this was like the magical ingredient. I've since learned many, many things about dyslexia, one that it can be a blessing, but that it didn't fix what I thought was a problem. But it did help her to have the tools that she needed so she could continue to learn and grow alongside of her learning to read, not being hindered by her inability to read.
It allowed us as a family to begin to look at learning in a whole new light. I loved also the emphasis Charlotte Mason places on the observations made by the child, that they are bringing their own mind to bear on the work that they're given to do. So spending time out in nature, considering what it is that they have read, taking time to read beautiful poetry and beautiful books. [00:12:56]
I was raised by a reader. I'm a bookworm. And my mother always was very particular that we read good books. She called the books that weren't as healthy cotton candy. That's what my mother called them. So she always made sure I had a diet of good books.
That also really drew me to Charlotte Mason's curriculum because I wanted my children to read the best. I wanted them to have the opportunity to read from many wise people who've gone on before us. So when I found this philosophy, I really began to see how it would work for our family.
And because it was a philosophy, it wasn't just me having to order a bunch of workbooks and trying to get them to us here in Ghana and the cost involved in all of that. There was a bit more freedom, too, to use what we were able to find where we were at.
Laura Dugger: And even that word freedom, that's what comes to mind when I learn more about this philosophy because Charlotte Mason believed in short lessons. [00:13:57] And when you put this all together, it's only a few hours total.
And even going back to you mentioning there are so many requirements of missionaries or so many hats that you're wearing, it sounds like you've really had a robust life with this homeschooling philosophy, that your family can be involved in so many things beyond just school.
Patty Sommer: I think another thing that I love, too, is she makes the point that education is a life. Education isn't something that we do from just 8 to 3, Monday through Friday. Everything we do in life can teach us something.
And I love that aspect, too, because there are days when we get a phone call and something odd happens, we have to deal with something. Someone's sick in the hospital and they need food taken to them, there's an emergency. That my children, just because they're not in this exact classroom 8 to 3, that they're not learning.
Just on Saturday, we were out visiting as a family, and we live in a huge city, over 4 million people, but there are still pockets that aren't city-like. [00:15:04] And one of those areas is actually in the middle of a huge area of factories, but kind of in the middle, this area has been left, and there's charcoal fields there. Because many people maybe are aware of the fact that in most of the Third World, people still have to use something to make their cook fires. So here in Ghana, it's charcoal.
What they do is they actually take wood and they smoke it and make it harder so that the wood lasts longer. That's really what charcoal is. It's been made for millennia.
But as we were going through there visiting the people, they were getting to see this, and we talked about it on the way back, what wisdom God has given mankind that they could figure out how to take wood and make it into a fuel that could burn longer and burn better for them, and just all the different things. And all of those things are adding up, stacking up every day for my children, and even myself, to grow in wisdom and the knowledge of mankind and the knowledge of God and the knowledge of the world He's created. So it is a very freeing philosophy of education, and it has been a huge blessing to all of us as a family. [00:16:09]
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: I oftentimes have not met many other moms of four daughters. So do you have any other parenting wisdom to impart from your experience so far?
Patty Sommer: Oh boy. Parenting wisdom, that's a dangerous question to ask. I will say this. Again, I will quote Charlotte Mason because this, I think, was the quote that really struck me the most the first time I read it. She said, "The question is not how much does the youth know when he is finished with his education, but how much does he care?" And that quote goes on. There's a lot to it.
But I think one of the things that I have loved to see grow in my girls is the fact that they do care. [00:19:35] We live in a world where a lot of people are angry a lot and say they care a lot. But I think in actuality, we don't see many people who really take that caring and do something with it. If that makes sense. Many times it's just the agitation of the moment, the thing that is being put in front of our eyes or in our ears. But to see people who really care.
And I believe that when we pursue knowledge for God's sake, that that is what we will raise is children who care. I'm sure that you have been given lots of good advice over the years, but I think that that's the one thing that I'm so thankful that the Lord has led us. That it's not about knowing just something. It's not about getting a grade. But seeing in my children the fruit of the fact that because we have learned to care, that they are learning to care, that they're desiring to see God do a work in this world, not for their own benefit, not for material gain, but because they love the world that God has made and they love Him and they want to see other people come to know Him and see them grow in Him. [00:20:50]
Laura Dugger: Patty, what miracles, big and small, have you witnessed from God throughout your life?
Patty Sommer: I have so many. I'm going to have to limit myself. I grew up reading missionary biographies. They're one of my favorite genres to read. And they have been so encouraging to me along the way. But I remember reading stories and thinking, Well, that used to happen to missionaries. But I can say that God still does miracles for missionaries and not just missionaries. He does miracles for his children.
A couple that I love to share. One of them is about a big thing and then one is about something a little bit smaller, maybe.
Our third daughter, she was born in the States when we were on one of our furloughs. She was actually born... she's my fastest, fastest delivery. I was in the hospital 18 minutes before she showed up. She was born and they did a quick check and they said everything was good and they sent us up to the hospital room. [00:21:53]
She was really cold, and I didn't think anything of it. I just thought it's cold in the hospital. And a few hours later, they were coming around doing the checks for, you know, their hearing and their sight, and there was a NICU nurse who it was really quiet on the NICU floor that night. And they had just asked her to come down and help because a bunch of babies had been born that day.
She came in, she started doing the hearing test and she kind of gave us a funny look, and she said, "I'm going to take your baby out just for a minute to check a couple of things." And we didn't think anything of it. And then about an hour later, I looked at my husband, I said, "Where is our daughter? Can you please find that nurse?" I was starting to get a little panicky.
And he came back and he just had this look of shock on his face and he said, "She's been admitted to the NICU. She has a heart problem." We found out that day that she had a problem with her PDA valve. To make a complex thing fairly simple, there's a valve between the lungs and the heart in a baby that is open while they're in the mother's womb. [00:22:50] After birth, it's supposed to close immediately or within the first few hours, but hers would not close. So her body could not process oxygen correctly.
We ended up in the NICU for two solid weeks while they were trying to get her stable. That was a very difficult situation. When she was ready to go home, they said, "Most of the time, this will close on its own but you really need to see a doctor before she turns three, because if a child has it longer than that, the heart will enlarge and it can cause her great difficulty as she ages, even to the point of it, at some point, it could kill her.
Of course, we knew we were coming back to Ghana and so we just prayed, "Lord, just heal her up." And she seemed fine to us, but she was also five years younger than the sister above her. She was a very slow baby, very sleepy. And like I said, because she was so much younger, we thought, "You know, maybe you don't remember. Maybe all of our babies were like this." [00:23:50]
Then I found out we were expecting our fourth daughter, and she was born, and she was just full of so much energy. And I kept comparing my two girls, and I thought, "There's something wrong here. So we just have a clinic that we've used here for many years. One of the doctors there he's quite old. He's in his 80s, but still practicing.
So we just took her in and said, "Doctor, I don't know if you know anything about this. Here's the situation. Is there any way you could check and see if this valve might still be open in her heart?" She was two and a half at the time. And he did a couple really quick checks and he said, "Oh, yes." He said, "I can actually hear the backflow in her heart. This is going to need surgery."
And I said, "Well, do you know anything about this?" And he sat down and began to tell me how he'd actually dealt with a young lady 30 years prior in Ghana that had had the same thing. But actually, she was a grown woman. He was talking me through, and he said, "No, she needs surgery." [00:24:51] And I said, "Well, where can I get... what kind of surgery?" He's like, "Well, it's a heart surgery. It's not huge, but it's also not small." And he said, "There's no one in this city who can do this heart surgery." He said, "You're going to have to go to the capital city."
So we just began praying. We knew of some missionary doctors in Togo, which is the country to our east. They have a hospital there. And so we started praying and just kind of putting out feelers to different people we knew. And we were able to get the numbers. And we made a phone call and were able to talk to the heart doctor there. He said, "There's no way with the visa issues that you can get your daughter to us. And even if so, we don't have the equipment to do this surgery." He said, "She'll have to have this kind of heart test. She'll have to have this checked by a pediatric cardiologist. She'll have to have this, this, this." He said, "But there is one hospital in the capital city where this can be done." And so he gave us some information, and we just began to pray. [00:25:51]
We went down to the capital and we actually went to the hospital. And here we don't go to a hospital by appointment. You just go and get in a line and you literally just stay until the doctor sees you. And if he can't see you that day, you just go the next day. And that's how all the hospitals work here. We don't have enough hospitals for the number of people we have.
So we were just planning on taking our daughter and going and sitting in line at this heart hospital in the capital. That night we were staying at a missionary guest house, and a couple came in. We'd met them years and years before. I mean, just knew them by sight. Began to talk to the lady, ends up that she is a doctor in the far north in a little clinic up in the northern part of Ghana as an outreach. And she said, "Well, do you have this paper and this paper and this paper and this paper?" And we said, "No, we didn't know we needed them." And she said, "Well, you're never going to get to see anybody without these papers."
And we said, "Well, how are we going to get these papers?" And she said, "Well, the good thing is I actually know the head cardiologist." [00:26:53] She's like, "Let me write these papers for you." She just began writing out these papers and printing them off on her computer. And she had her stamps there and everything.
So the next day my husband was able to go with our daughter, and they said, "No, she definitely needs a surgery and she needs it right away." So we started planning what that would look like. We'd have to figure out what was going on here in our city with the church plant that we were leading at the time and where were we going to stay in the capital city?"
And we saw, Laura, the Lord opened door after door after door after door. And when the head cardiologist found out about the situation, he said, "I'm going to do this surgery for this little girl." It was just a miracle piled on top of a miracle. So nine years ago in May, we took our little two-and-a-half-year-old down to this hospital and we just had to hand over to the Lord and say, "Lord, you're going to have to do a miracle." And He did.
She had that heart surgery and she has come through it and she is strong and she is healthy. [00:27:58] The Lord provided the tests we needed. He provided the pediatric cardiologist. She'd just been back in the country one month. She'd moved from UK. And just how the Lord took care of every single thing. It could only be God.
So she's our miracle. And every time that I start to think, "Lord, we need this. We need this taken care of. We need this provision" He just reminds me, "I healed your daughter. I healed your daughter in a third-world country where people said it couldn't be done, and I gave you everything that you needed."
One more miracle that I love to share is our library here. To get things to Ghana is very expensive because usually we just have to put it in suitcases and bring it. And if you think about how much it costs to just carry a suitcase on a plane in America, multiply that times coming overseas.
There was a point where we were really growing and understanding of our Charlotte Mason education. [00:29:00] And we had books, but there were a lot of specific books that I had on these lists. And I was like, "Lord, how do I get these books here? I want to provide my children with this education that I believe that you've laid on our hearts. But we need books. And we would love to also be able to share books with the people here."
Ghana is... one of their national languages is English. So the people who go to school and learn to read will read English. So we felt like it was a way that we could help people here. We got a phone call from a missionary family that we knew a little bit. They were in one city and it hadn't worked real well for them and they moved to another city. And they were really discouraged.
We were going down just to try to encourage them. And we got into their house, I mean, they had bookshelves everywhere. Beautiful, full of beautiful books. And I was like, "Lord, they have all these books. Lord, how are you going to help us get books that we need?"
Well, when we were spending that couple of days with them, we were talking with them and things were not going well. [00:30:02] They were pretty sure they were leaving the field. We spent a lot of time just trying to encourage them to seek the Lord's will about it. Because leaving the field is a big decision.
And when we were there, the wife looked at me and she said, "Look," she said, "we are definitely going to be leaving the field." She's like, "But would you like our books?" I just started bawling. I didn't even know what to do with that. And I said, "Some of your books?" She's like, "No, look, we shipped in all these books." She's like, "I can get books in the States at used bookstores. Do you want the books?" And I'm like, "Well, we can't take them all." She's like, "Whatever you can take, you are free to take." And I mean, I think we maybe paid $100 for everything. They built our library for us.
And so many of the book titles that I have been praying about that have been on a list that someday, little by little, we might be able to get here, the Lord just dropped them in our lap. And since then, He's provided other ways for us to get books here and build this library. [00:31:00] But again, the Lord said, look, I can do at any moment what you need, as long as it's according to my will.
And we've seen that over and over in people's lives. We've seen God's provision. We've seen God care for us in ways that are just beyond the realm of what we could do as human beings. I'm just so grateful that He's allowed us to see those things, to see Him made strong on our behalf.
Laura Dugger: Wow, Patty, that is incredible. You're just reminding me of verses that I read this morning in my quiet time. So I'm going to share a couple of these. First, in Hebrews 4:16, I was reading in the Amplified version, and it says, "Therefore let us [with privilege] approach the throne of grace [that is, the throne of God's gracious favor] with confidence and without fear, so that we may receive mercy [for our failures] and find [His amazing] grace to help in time of need..." [00:32:06] And this closing is what especially reminds me of your books. So that part "...grace to help in time of need [an appropriate blessing, coming just at the right moment]."
Patty Sommer: Yes, over and over and over again.
Laura Dugger: Have you checked out our library of articles available at thesavvysauce.com? New posts are added multiple times a month related to parenting, intimacy and marriage, personal development, habits, and other topics connected to what we discuss here on The Savvy Sauce. If you sign up to join our email list, you're also going to enjoy little extras delivered straight to your inbox.
Our hope is to encourage you to have your own practical chats for intentional living. So these freebies will include things like questions that you can ask on your next date night, safe resources to read to promote enjoyment in your intimacy and marriage, or questions to ask your kids to connect at a more relational level. We hope you check out all the available reads at thesavvysauce.com under the Articles tab. [00:33:09]
I love that you're sharing this story because it lives out Psalms 77:11-12, again, in Amplified. It says, "I will solemnly remember the deeds of the Lord. Yes, I will wholeheartedly remember your wonders of old. I will meditate on all your works and thoughtfully consider all your great and wondrous deeds."
Patty Sommer: Often we're afraid to put our faith and trust in God because we really don't believe that He is capable, that He is, He is.
Laura Dugger: And I love that he did for you what you could not do for yourself in both of those examples, big and small.
Patty Sommer: Yes.
Laura Dugger: And then even to start to tie it together, even going back to your Charlotte Mason education, I'm so curious, what are a few of those specific titles that your family now gets to treasure?
Patty Sommer: One of them, it just sounds funny, Johnny Tremaine. It's a story from the Revolutionary War. I had seen it over and over. It was one I'd never read, even though it was quite a bookworm growing up. [00:34:12] And I wanted a copy of that so bad. And she had not one, but two.
Laura Dugger: He provides in abundance, doesn't He?
Patty Sommer: He does. He does. I also was able to get, this is just a total side note, little things, how he just provides us exceedingly abundantly above what we ask or think. I was really praying about cast iron cookware. And of course, cast iron is so heavy. To put that in a suitcase, there's no way that we could justify a 50-pound suitcase with two pots in it, right? So she actually said, "Hey, by the way, I've got five cast iron cook pots. Would you like them?" And on top of my books, I got my cast ironware.
Laura Dugger: My goodness. Well, it sounds like you've been, what the Old Testament talks about, blessed to be a blessing. Will you share where the library is at these days and how it's benefited others as well?
Patty Sommer: At this point, our library is a mobile library. [00:35:15] We have tried in various forms to try to set it up in a place. One thing that's really hard here is our buildings are not sealed. And so trying to keep books preserved in unsealed houses and buildings is really tricky. It's also very high humidity here. So you can imagine what that does to books.
So we had thought we had something set up at the place where our church is renting and that fell through. And then we thought we were going to build another little room onto it. And that fell through.
And so when we actually came back from our last furlough, I was just like, "Lord, you've given us this." At this point, you know, as people come, they ask for books, I can take them a book. But what can this look like practically right now?
So I actually was thinking about the old mobile librarians. I actually have my book bag. So whenever we have a service at this point, I have this big bag and I've got a patch full of books of all different kinds and all different reading levels for the people that read well and are interested. [00:36:16] And I take my book bag and I have the kids, they just line right up and we just go right through and we trade out old books and get new books.
At this point, I have a very small mobile library. It's in our home right now. We're just taking it little by little with what the Lord's provided. But it's exciting to see just what the Lord is going to do with it.
Laura Dugger: That is beautiful. It sounds like you're being very faithful in the small things. I can't wait to see what this blossoms into. I'd also like to know, what are some things that we may not know that are oftentimes true of many missionary families?
Patty Sommer: That's a tricky question because I would hate to claim something that all the other missionaries disagree with. I think one thing that goes along kind of with your question about parenting, I've realized that church planting, especially, and parenting are very, very similar. It's about the day-to-day, but it's also about the end game. [00:37:17]
When I was first expecting my very first, my husband and I were actually on a missions trip with our home church right before we were getting ready to come to the field. And we were helping. We were doing some backyard Bible clubs and things like that.
We were in northern Ontario, Canada, and the lady who was having us help at her home found that I was expecting and she said, "You don't really know me, but can I just give you a little bit of advice?" And I said, "Sure, please do." And she said, "Remember that you're not raising a child. You're raising an adult. You're raising a responsible citizen. You're raising someone who should be able to go on and keep the two great commandments." And that really stuck with me.
As we are transitioning as a family right now, our oldest is back in the state. She just finished her first year at college. We are also in the point of this church plant that we are transitioning ourselves out. The thing that has struck me over and over again is that our calling is never to set ourselves up. [00:38:24] Our calling is always to prepare our children and our churches and the people that we disciple to go on and grow and walk with the Lord themselves.
So I think as a missionary, at times, it's easy to forget that. Okay, this is going really well, this looks really good on paper, but my goal is not for it to look good on paper. My goal is for a church where the leadership can teach and they are growing in grace and that they are discipling those behind them and that they're passionate about preaching the gospel. And that the end game is what we must always keep in mind.
I'm not here as a missionary so that I can set myself up and have my little kingdom. Just like as a parent, I'm not here to set myself up as the ruler of my child. I'm, by God's grace, raising them to go out and do what God has called them to do. And so as missionaries, that's something that I think we always need to keep in mind. [00:39:26]
And it's something that can be prayed for for missionaries as they go through the hard things, as they go through the hardships, as they go through the difficulties to remember: what is our goal as missionaries? Our goal is to be establishing churches or our goal is to be building up believers. Our goal is to be training those under us. Whatever field, whatever area of missions God has called us to, it's not about us. It's about how God will be glorified in the future in these people and in their lives and in what has been done in that place for His honor and glory.
Laura Dugger: Well, it's also always fun to hear a day in the life of various people. So what does a typical day look like in your world?
Patty Sommer: One of the things we had to learn right away is that when you live in a place that isn't run by the clock, you either run yourself or you will be run. That has changed a bit in the 20 years that we've been here. But really, Ghana is a much slower place than what we came from in America. [00:40:29]
America is very much by the clock. The idea of being by the clock is still fairly new here. So we learned pretty quickly that if we just kind of went with the flow of things, we would not get a lot accomplished. So we have had to learn actually to be pretty set in what we do.
So a typical day here, I am very, very strict about school time unless there's an emergency. I wasn't at first. And I learned that to my detriment. So Monday through Friday, we're in the classroom at nine o'clock and we are done at one o'clock, which is the joy of a Charlotte Mason education. My children do have things they do in the afternoon. But as far as the actual school subjects, we're done at one o'clock.
Then literally we have each day kind of planned, what happens each day afterwards. And so we have some nights that are for ministering to other people. We have some nights we spend as a family. We have a midweek prayer service. [00:41:30]
Every Wednesday morning my husband and my girls go and they actually do Bible clubs at one of the government schools here, which is a great outreach in the area where our church is. On Saturdays is always family visitation. On Sundays we have church.
And then we also have things very set monthly. I only go grocery shopping once a month because that is a huge all-day endeavor. We go into the city. We don't have like one place where I can go and get everything. So we go from this market to that market, to this place, to the shopping center, to this building, to that building, to the butcher and we get everything for a month besides like, of course, the fresh stuff. But all of the meat for the month, anything that has to be processed.
OK, so if I want tomatoes for tomato sauce or spaghetti sauce or anything like that, I have to buy the tomatoes. So I buy huge bushel baskets of tomatoes and I have to bring those home and process them. And so trying to get the food for the month is a huge thing. [00:42:30]
Then my husband goes out on Mondays while we're in school and he runs to the market and picks up the fresh things that we need for the week. So just really actually quite regimented. If the electricity is on every morning, the laundry must be done because it has to hang because we don't have dryers here. Just things that for me are very normal.
I have to cook everything from scratch. So I have to put a lot of time into cooking every meal. Every supper meal takes at least an hour and a half. So at four o'clock I start cooking supper. So really just every day, just the thing that we've been given to do for that day, which is usually for me, school and taking care of our family. And then the things we have in the evening so that we can minister to others.
Laura Dugger: Wow. In your bio, you also mentioned that you're seeking to master the art of sourdough bread.
Patty Sommer: I'm trying.
Laura Dugger: I love that because it just makes me think of slow living, but you're sounding so intentional with your time. [00:43:31] So is there anything you've learned about that combination of being intentional to tell your time where to go, but also it is a slower pace, even making everything from scratch?
Patty Sommer: Oh, boy. I think that... man, I don't even know how to put it. I used to be a very frantic list person. My husband used to call me Martha Stewart and say, "You're Martha Stewarting again, honey." I would really work myself up. And I've learned that it has to be a balance. I have to be intentional with my time, because if not, it slips away from me, and I look at the end of the day and I say, "Man, I had these things that I wanted to get done, but I didn't even get done the things I needed to get done."
So learning to make the time. And to figure out also what it is the Lord actually wants me to spend my time on that day, I think, is also an important lesson I've had to learn. And I'm not always good at it, but hopefully we're growing in that area. [00:44:32]
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's so good. Any practical tips on that if we all want to seek the Lord as well? How have you heard his voice or then led to know which things are for you to pick up and which ones you need to lay down for that day?
Patty Sommer: I am by nature a night owl, but the Lord moved me to a place where everyone's an early bird. So I have learned that it's very important for me to get in God's word and prayer before I ever leave my room in the morning. Because if not, as a mother, everybody will assail me with a need, a problem, a question, a want.
So my husband and I, years ago, we worked out... He is an early bird, so he leaves the room and he comes out to do his devotions and he runs interference for me. This wasn't possible when I had, of course, tiny babies. But now that none of my kids have to have me first thing in the morning, so I do not leave my room until I spend time with the Lord. [00:45:32]
I'm trying to seek the Lord's face and just asking, what does today look like? And having a rough idea of what I should be doing that day helps. But knowing that where there's spots that, you know, I've got this time frame in the afternoon, what's it need to look like? Just asking the Lord, please make it very evident what I need to do at that time.
Laura Dugger: That's so good. Is there anything else that we haven't discussed yet that you want to make sure we don't miss?
Patty Sommer: I would ask as a missionary that those who listen to this, if they're praying people, that they would take the time to pray for your missionaries. There are so many people who've reached out to us over the years who say, "Man, how can we pray for you?" But there are some things that it's just impossible to really share. Not because we don't try, not because people who are listening don't try, but they just... when you've never experienced some things, you've just never experienced them.
But there are things that missionaries face that are just so different than what they face in their home country. And missionaries really do need your prayer. [00:46:34] And there are times that we've gone through difficulties and we can tell there's a calmness in our spirit, there's a quietness in our hearts because we know that people are praying for us.
We don't always know what missionaries are going through and we may not know how to pray specifically, but taking the time to pray for missionaries is really, really important. And it does more than most people imagine.
Laura Dugger: That's so helpful to hear. Is there a place where we can go after this conversation to learn more about your journey or just learn more from you?
Patty Sommer: So I'm on Instagram as Mrs. John in Ghana. That's where I do most of my writing now and my picture sharing there. We are on Facebook, but I don't a ton there. I used to write in the old days when people blogged. I wrote a lot about when I was younger and a young mom over. It's also at JohninGhana@blogspot.com. So those who are curious about the early years, you're welcome to go there. But I don't write there much anymore. [00:47:41]
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will add links to that in the show notes for today's episode. Patty, you may already be familiar that we are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Patty Sommer: I think as funny as this might sound, this is something that I've been learning in recent years, whether it comes to homeschooling, whether it comes to my plans for the day, whether it comes for dealing with my adult child on the phone 7,000 miles away or dealing with my 9-year-old, that prayer is one of our most underestimated gifts from the Lord.
The more I learn to spend time in prayer, the smoother my days go and the more I feel like I am learning what it means to walk in the spirit. So prayer has not been an easy habit for me to learn. And it's something I'm still learning. [00:48:40] But I would encourage you to just start. Whether it's ugly, whether it's awkward, whether you fall asleep, whether you find your mind wandering, just start seeking to pray. Before you make a decision, before you talk to someone, when someone asks you for counsel, ask the Lord for wisdom, ask Him to guide you and He will.
Laura Dugger: Patty, I wonder if it's the fruit of that habit that I just experienced you as such a calm, peaceful soul and a faithful woman. And we're so grateful for the work that you're doing every day, both in parenting and in missions work. And then to disciple us through this conversation was such a gift. So thank you for being my guest.
Patty Sommer: Thank you, Laura, for inviting me. This has been a joy.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. [00:49:41] Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. [00:50:44]
Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. [00:51:50] You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Sep 23, 2024
Monday Sep 23, 2024
Special Patreon Re-Release: Lead with Questions in Parenting with Stacy Bellward
**Transcription Below**
Jeremiah 29:13 (NIV) "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart."
Stacy Bellward has walked thousands of parents through all of Connected Families online courses - encouraging them, asking thoughtful questions and nudging them toward new thinking. Her favorite is finding and celebrating the small wins with parents. A speaker, Stacy is real and brings stories of her own: raising 2 high schoolers, 20 year multicultural marriage, adoption, and learning in ever increasing ways to trust God with it all. Stacy is a certified leadership coach, Bible Study teacher, award winning author, Connected Families podcast host, and soccer mom.
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Slumber Sleepwear invites you to experience what true rest feels like. What you wear to bed and how you feel in your pajamas is a critical part of your evening wellness routine, so sleep well, live brilliantly. Slumber Sleepwear is available online at slumbersleepwear.com.
If this is your first time here, welcome! You may be wondering what it means to have a special Patreon release. So here's the scoop. Patreon was a platform we used to generate financial support for The Savvy Sauce, and we expressed our thanks to those paying patrons by giving them a bonus episode every month.
But in 2024, we transitioned away from Patreon when we became a non-profit called The Savvy Sauce Charities. [00:01:18] The podcast is part of this non-profit, which exists to resource loved ones to inspire growth and intimacy with God and others.
So people used to pay to support us through Patreon, but now they can just donate directly to our non-profit. We spend thousands of dollars each year to record and produce these episodes, and we do pray that they're beneficial and that God sees fit to use them to be transformational in your life.
If that is the case, if you have ever benefited from an episode of The Savvy Sauce, would you consider showing your gratitude through your financial generosity? Any amount is greatly appreciated. In fact, if every listener gave only $1 per month, it would completely offset our costs.
We have all the details on our website, thesavvysauce.com, but feel free to also reach out to our team anytime if you want to partner together. Our email address is info@thesavvysauce.com. [00:02:23]
My guest is the founder of Reclaimed Hope Initiative, Bettina Stevens.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Bettina.
Bettina Stevens: Hi, Laura. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Laura Dugger: Well, let's just begin here. How did you originally come to faith in Christ?
Bettina Stevens: I grew up in the church. My father has been a pastor for as long as I can remember, and probably about 25 years even before I was born. So I've always had God in my life in some way, shape, or form.
But honestly, it wasn't really until I went to college that I really found my own relationship with God that didn't feel like it was something that I was taught growing up, or part of just an expectation of my life in my upbringing. It was just a really beautiful time for me to really connect with Him in a different way and really kind of, you know, reconstruct and deconstruct some of the things I've learned and really create that into my own faith relationship with Him. [00:03:32]
Laura Dugger: Well, when you think back to that pivotal time in college when you're making that relationship your own with Christ, how did you anticipate your life playing out at that point?
Bettina Stevens: My husband and I were high school sweethearts, so we have been together for a very long time and were together all through college. So we kind of always planned on getting married soon after college. We always said we'd have four kids, two biological, two adopted. That was always part of the plan.
Then I had always wanted to become a physical therapist. So after college, I had planned to apply to physical therapy school, get my doctorate, and then really just kind of start our life together. You know, we talked about traveling and regular time away and really just diving into being a young married couple and just growing our family. [00:04:30]
So, yeah, even in college, this was something we kind of actively talked about and played through in our lives, and we were just excited to get that started.
Laura Dugger: So you two are in college and you're dreaming about the future, but you already had mentioned that adoption was in the plan. So do you remember how old you were when God first laid the idea of adoption on your heart?
Bettina Stevens: Yeah. I never grew up with adoption in my life, except through the story of my birth. My parents actually had planned to adopt a child between my brother, who's older than me, and my birth. Actually, that little girl was stolen from them before they were even able to bring her home. It was a very heartbreaking story for them, but something that God really laid on their hearts of adoption and how that would play out.
And so it was just a really beautiful story of redemption for them in terms of this little girl was stolen from them on January 15th, 1985. Both of my parents really still felt like they were supposed to have another baby. [00:05:42]
I was actually born January 15th, 1987, like two years to the day, to the hour that that little girl was stolen from my parents. So that was always a part of my story, always told to me in different ways. And so, I don't know, I always feel like I had that adoption seed within me from a very young age. It was just something I was always open to and curious about.
Then as I got older, honestly, I've never really felt compelled to have biological children. It was never really something that I dreamed of or longed for. I talked to so many other women who were like, Oh, I just always wanted to be a mom or I always wanted to be pregnant. And that was just never my story.
I was actually really nervous about being a mom and I was really nervous about kind of what that would look like. It was just never something I felt compelled to do. We talked about biological kids because I felt like that's what you do. You get married and you have biological children. [00:06:44]
But adoption was always a part of my plan, really just in feeling like there's so many children in the world who need a family. And why couldn't we do that for them?
So whenever Paul and I were talking about it, even early on in our marriage, I would say for me, that seed was really planted towards the end of high school, beginning of college, where I really felt like, yes, I want to be an adoptive mother, whatever that may look like. I don't know. But that seed was really planted deep.
Then I remember being very nervous to bring it up with Paul and talk with him through that. He was totally on board when we finally had the conversation and felt very similar. So that was just really confirming for me in our marriage and in our relationship. And it was just always part of our plan after that. So, you know, we didn't ever really know what that would look like but we were both very much on the same page from the beginning.
And it really wasn't until our first mission trip to Uganda in 2014 that we both felt like God was telling us that it was time to pursue our first adoption. [00:07:46]
Laura Dugger: Okay. There are a few parts that I want to elaborate on here. So with you and Paul discussing this, you said he was on board right away. Was it something that he just was at peace with through conversation with you or was it something that he also had felt called to before you even talked about it?
Bettina Stevens: I really feel like it was something he felt called to before we even talked about it. I'm not sure that he had really put words to it until we had the conversation. But he very much has felt that same calling of just, you know, I don't feel like we have to have biological children.
I don't know, I remember our first conversation and feeling so much relief in that of just like, wow, we both really feel like we are on the same page. And really realizing how unique that is, because the majority of families that we talk to, it's really the wife who kind of is more on board in terms of adoption, and the husband kind of comes around eventually. [00:08:47] Obviously that's not everyone's story, but the majority it is.
For us to just feel like we were on the same page and ready to take that step together was very reassuring and just a clear calling from God for us, knowing that we were both already there together.
Laura Dugger: If this is too intrusive, you don't have to answer. But I'm also curious, when you say that this daughter born the same day, two years prior to your birth, when you say she was stolen from your parents, can you share that story?
Bettina Stevens: Yeah, of course. So I have two older brothers before me, and then my parents both really felt called to adopt as well. And so they had done all the paperwork, gone through the entire process, and they flew to Mexico to pick up their daughter, who they had already prayed for, like created a family around.
She was being cared for by the village doctor and his wife. [00:09:49] And at the time, the village doctor's wife really felt like she was her daughter. So my parents flew in, they met with the doctor, they saw their daughter, and then the next day, when they were supposed to come back and sign the paperwork to be able to officially make her theirs and bring her back home, the doctor's wife had fled with her.
And so they spent the next few days really just trying to find their baby and figure out what happened. And it was just so heartbreaking because unfortunately it didn't happen and they couldn't find her.
So they flew home kind of not really knowing what to do and feeling, I guess, a balance of anger and being so heartbroken at the same time. My mom said it really took her a year before she felt like she was able to even begin the journey of forgiveness for this woman and never realizing that they would find their baby again. [00:10:50] So it was just a crazy story of heartbreak for them.
During that time, my mom still really felt led to have another baby. The funny part is she had asked my dad, "I really feel led to continue growing our family," and my dad was like, no, we're good. I think we're good. We have two boys like this awful thing just happened. Why would we put ourselves through something more?"
And so my mom just said, "Can you go away for the weekend and pray? And if God tells you we're not supposed to have another baby, then I will just let that go. But if He tells you we are, then let's continue this journey of parenthood."
And so my dad went away. And he's told me so many times that he went away thinking he was just going to spend three days relaxing, you know? He said he spent about 48 hours just sleeping and hanging out and then had this really huge conviction from God and so started praying. [00:11:49] God did very much confirm that they were supposed to have another baby but He also confirmed that it would be a girl.
My dad wrote down the day I would be born, the time, my height, my weight, my gender in a journal that he felt like God really shared with him. And I was born to those exact specifications two years to the day that little baby was stolen from them. So just a really beautiful story of heartbreak and redemption on the other side for them.
Laura Dugger: Oh, my goodness, I've got tears in my eyes just thinking of that up-and-down journey for them. When we get to hear this years later and we get to see even little bits of God working all of these things together for good, it's so encouraging to see that. But yet I'm sure living in the moment when your daughter is stolen from you and you're going through the process of forgiveness, there's just so much at that time I can see where it would have been a really difficult season. [00:12:53] And I'm sure you were such a joy.
Bettina Stevens: Yeah, absolutely. You know, my mom says she didn't find out if it was a boy or girl intentionally because she didn't want to be sad. And my dad didn't tell her that he had all that information until after I was born. So it was kind of this, you know, like God secret that my dad had that he just said, "We'll just wait and see." And then after the fact, so confirming for both of them.
Laura Dugger: Wow. Well, then for you specifically, has there been any scripture that God's used to provide you with comfort along the way as well?
Bettina Stevens: Oh, definitely. You know, it's funny, Paul and I say all the time that we felt very prepared for adoption going into it. We read all the books, we did all the training. And really, once we got into it, we realized how naive we were to actually understanding what it would look like. But also really just trusting God in a way that we hadn't before. [00:13:57]
I remember just waiting for the adoption was so hard because you get paired with these children and you're praying over them and you're looking at their pictures and you're just imagining what life with them will look like and never really knowing when you'll get to meet them.
So much of that is out of your control and in the control of the United States government, but also whatever country you may potentially be adopting from if you're doing an international adoption. So for me, I remember just reading the Psalms over and over and over again in the waiting and just really asking God to bring me that comfort, and that that dichotomy of lament and praise in the Psalms that David does so clearly, I just remember reading them over and over and over again during the year and a half we waited to bring our boys home for the first time.
And then so many scriptures since then, since bringing our boys home. I remember the first time I read Hagar's story and realizing it's the only time in the Bible that God is called El Roi, the God who sees. [00:15:00] And I remember being so encouraged by that of just He is seeing everything and knowing everything, even in the midst of so much despair or heartbreak or difficulty. And that is something I've held on to for a really long time.
Laura Dugger: And now this just makes me want to hear even more of your own adoption story with your children. So can you give us some more details about how long you and Paul were married before you got to bring home your first children and catch us up on growing your family to this point?
Bettina Stevens: Yeah. So Paul and I were married in 2009 and we didn't bring our boys home until 2015. So leading up to that point, we really were set on just having a good five or six years just being married and getting to know each other as husband and wife and really just solidifying our relationship in a more tangible way that really felt like we were connected and kind of ready to bring children into the world and parents. [00:16:03]
We really thought we would have two biological children first, mainly just because that's what you do once you're married, and then we would adopt later. So that was something that was always kind of part of our planning and thought process.
But we had a really beautiful time in Uganda when we went on our first mission trip there. We worked at a school and just went with a small team to just kind of bring resources. And we did vacation Bible school and a bunch of other things.
And we were just totally rocked by this trip. It was just the most tangible encounter with God that both of us had ever had and just such a beautiful, confirming feeling of kind of all these things that we felt like we were desiring in terms of our family.
We both had this experience. We come home, and I just remember the first week home, we both kind of looked at each other and said, like, "I feel like we're supposed to adopt now." And we are both on the same page, 100 percent. [00:17:04] And just a really confirming feeling.
So then from there, we both really felt led to adopt in Uganda, obviously having this beautiful experience. But we had really been connected with this school since 2011. And so just really feeling like we love the people of Uganda, we love the country of Uganda. You know, we've had such beautiful times there with Jesus and we really felt led to that.
So we started the adoption process in July of 2014 and we traveled to Uganda in August of 2015. But we actually didn't bring our boys home until November of 2015. So Paul and I lived in Uganda for almost four months to complete the adoption process there before we could bring them home.
Laura Dugger: And then the Lord continued growing your family even after getting to have your two boys come home with you. Is that right?
Bettina Stevens: Correct. Yeah. So after our boys had been home about a year, Paul and I just really felt like we were supposed to continue growing our family. [00:18:05] We saw a picture of this little girl on a waiting child list from China. I just remember looking at the picture and I said to Paul, "This is our daughter. I know that this feels so soon. We just brought the boys home. We're still adjusting to being a family of four, but I really feel like she's our daughter." Paul was like, "Okay, I'm in. Let's go figure this out together."
It was just the most peaceful process from the start, because we really just asked God very boldly if she's supposed to be our daughter, let someone donate all the money for her application, and then that would happen.
Or I would say, Lord, if she's supposed to be our daughter, we're supposed to bring her home into our family, let all of these doctors that I called that I'm waiting to call me back, let them call me back. Let one call me back today before noon. [00:19:05] And then like all six called me back that morning.
It was just the whole process was that way with her of just this total and complete peace and just God really reaffirming that decision time and time again, even when the majority of our friends and family thought we were kind of crazy for pursuing another adoption.
Specifically, her file was very much special needs in terms of her cognitive abilities and what that would look like. We really didn't know the severity of her needs. So we were kind of taking a leap of faith in what her file said compared to what we felt like God was asking us to do.
Laura Dugger: But it seems so evident that God was very eager to confirm that decision and just to be gracious to you and let you know this is your daughter indeed.
Bettina Stevens: Absolutely. Yes. After bringing her home, I've never been more sure of anything. She is just such a joy and has brought so much love and peace and just healing to our family in so many ways. [00:20:08] So it's only been confirmed over and over again since we brought her home.
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Laura Dugger: And you mentioned that there were some special needs. Do you want to share anything about your children and what's unique to them?
Bettina Stevens: Yeah. So with any adoption, there is a lot of trauma that comes with that. So all of these kiddos have had such a difficult upbringing, depending on how many years they've been in an institution or what experiences they've had, even pre-institution. [00:22:17] And so that was something that we felt like we had prepared for, but was much more severe when we adopted our children than what we anticipated.
Even with our boys, we had checked that we wanted no intellectual disabilities. We were not even actually approved for a special needs adoption at the time and we were told we were adopting two 4-year-old boys who were, quote-unquote, healthy. And in the adoption world, you take that as a grain of salt because you don't actually know what that all looks like or how that has played out in their lives.
But when we flew to Uganda, we realized very quickly that our oldest son had pretty significant needs. So at four, he was nonverbal and we weren't sure if it was autism or something more of a genetic disorder or what was going on. It really wasn't until we brought him home that we kind of got all that confirmed.
But he does have fairly significant autism and severe PTSD. In addition to ADHD, he has an autoimmune disorder called PANS, and he also has sensory processing disorder. [00:23:29] So quite a handful of needs that we were definitely not prepared for.
Really, we laughed because we checked all those boxes of no and that's exactly what we got in our son. And so we just felt like, "Okay, God, you're asking us to do this. We checked all those no boxes, but apparently you had different plans." So it has really been a leap of faith for us to just trust God in that process because we felt totally unequipped and unprepared.
Then our other son is more neurotypical, but still has quite a bit of sensory needs and trauma needs. He has also fairly significant ADHD. And so that plays out very differently than our son with autism. But both, you know, very high needs in general.
Then our daughter has two very rare medical syndromes. So she has Sturge-Weber syndrome and then PPV, which stands for Phakomatosis Pigmentovascularis, which is highly rare. [00:24:34] There's only 500 documented cases internationally ever.
Her diagnoses were territory that even the most specialized physicians were still really unsure of. And so we had a range of ideas after we talked to the doctor of her cognitive ability and what that would look like. And it was extreme. It was all the way to she could be fairly normal, all the way to she could have daily seizures and we may have to remove half of her brain. It was just this huge spectrum of medical needs that they were like, You're just going to have to wait and see.
And I just remember at that moment, Paul and I looking at each other and we both just said, like, "She's already our daughter. And if God has confirmed it, He will make a way." And we really just felt peace even in the midst of that diagnosis.
And then, you know, it's so funny, we always say we tried to adopt another child with special needs and it didn't happen because she got home and she is brilliantly smart and no cognitive disability at all. [00:25:43] She's speaking, talking, walking, running, jumping. She's such a joy to have in our lives.
And while she does have some medical diagnoses that we regularly have to get treated, cognitively, she's perfectly intact and no seizures to date or anything like that. So we've really been blessed by God's just fruition in her life.
Laura Dugger: Just hearing everything that maybe was shocking at first to get different diagnoses, how has this adoption journey impacted your marriage?
Bettina Stevens: Paul and I laugh because pre-adoption, we always said, "Oh, we're going to be really flexible parents, you know, the ones that let the kids nap in the car. When we go on vacation, they can sleep on the beach and just we're going to travel with them." And we laugh now because our son's needs, my son with autism, he has to have such a structured and routine day. [00:26:48] And so, you know, we laugh that it's been very opposite of what we intended our parenting to look like.
But in terms of our marriage, it's really come down to a lot less quality time, a lot more stress and a lot of sacrificing kind of our wants and desires and even friendships to parent our children well. We really just didn't expect the amount of trauma our children would come home with. And really, it has been a constant battle for Paul and I to stay connected and motivated to care for each other after all the care we give to our children in the day.
So, yeah, it's been something that we have to be incredibly intentional about in order to keep our marriage healthy.
Laura Dugger: I appreciate that real response, because how do you even find the capacity to be intentional? And then what do you and Paul do to stay connected?
Bettina Stevens: So lots of conversation. I will say Paul and I had a long-distance relationship for about four years before we were married as we navigated college. [00:27:55] And as hard as that was, I realized what a blessing it was for us to have to communicate everything we needed over the phone because we couldn't be physically present with each other.
There's so much body language that you get from just seeing somebody with your eyes, and we were not able to do that. So much communication had to happen over the phone. And that has been such a blessing for a foundation for our marriage, because now I feel like we can actually converse really well.
We do daily, weekly check-ins around our days, logistics, schedules, emotions, routines, like we're very structured in terms of setting aside time to just check in with each other. Then there's a ton of vulnerability and just willingness to share the dark moments no matter where we are.
So we never sugarcoat things with each other. We never try to just feel optimistic because we should be optimistic. We're really honest, even if it's really difficult to hear. [00:28:52] And I think that that has been just definitely a root for the foundation of our healthy marriage.
The other thing that we do is a lot of tag teaming and gap parenting is what we call it. We kind of say together we need to be 100% for our kids, but there's days where maybe I'm 25% and so I need him to be the 75% and vice versa. So we communicate that a lot of like, "Hey, I woke up at 50% today and I'm not sure I'm going to make it to 100%.
So really just being willing to pick up the slack for one another in really intentional ways. And then, oh, my gosh, so much grace for each other. We are very intentional about praying together and just spending time together with Christ.
Laura Dugger: Just hearing that level of teamwork, I'm sure it's something that many marriages have never experienced before. So it's beautiful to hear how you both can help fill in with each other and encourage each other. I'd also just love for you to educate us with some of the struggles that are specific to families raising children with special needs or trauma in their backgrounds. [00:30:01]
Bettina Stevens: Yeah, so adoption is unique in the fact that I tell people all the time the foundation of adoption is loss and grief and abandonment. And those three things are ingrained in our children's cellular memory before they even come home to us. So even if you adopt a child at birth, they know if they've had a connection with their birth mom or not, or they know the trauma that has happened to their birth mom in utero. And that doesn't just go away because now that they have a family.
That was something that I'm not sure I quite understood until we had our children in front of us and just saw the amount of turmoil they were in in trying to understand who we were, understand what a family even was, and then how to really let some of their walls down to be able to trust us.
Unlike a biological child where most of the time they're feeling the love from their mom, from the dad, from siblings, from extended family, from a child who knows they're wanted from the beginning, that is very much lost in adoption. [00:31:09]
Then on top of that, a lot of these children do have special needs due to potentially harmful things that happened in utero or just a lack of development, depending on what country they're from or where they were birthed. So all of those things you don't really know until the child is in front of you. And I always say it's like a thousand-piece puzzle you only have 250 pieces to, and you're just trying to fill in the gaps as you go.
But for us in particular, with our son with PTSD, he is very terrified of a lot of things and has very specific triggers. So community access is so difficult for us. Even going to church is very difficult for us. You know, he can't attend a regular camp and we don't do playdates. Even going to a public park or something like that is very challenging in terms of him feeling safe and knowing that something is not going to hurt him. [00:32:08]
And so it's really just taken consistent love and grace and understanding and empathy and really just showing up for them over and over and over again before they even begin to let their walls down.
So many of these kids, they've been forced to be survivors. Chronologically, they're 10 potentially, but emotionally and developmentally, typically they're about half their age, so 5. But they have the street smarts of a 35-year-old because they've learned how to cope and how to make sure that their needs are met, however that needs to happen.
Once they're brought into a family, all of those behaviors are ingrained in them and it takes such a long time and really so much intentionality for them to even let you take care of them.
And so, yeah, that was something that we just never quite realized in terms of trauma and how that would play out in our home and just all the behaviors that would come from that.
You really, as a parent, you have to push past the behavior to realize that these kids are simply trying to communicate something to you. [00:33:14] For us, we've dealt with physical aggression and verbal aggression, lots and lots of really mean things said to us. Then our other son he dissociates. So they talk about fight, flight, or freeze, and we have one of each in our home, which makes me laugh. But you have to parent them drastically differently as a result because their survival instinct kicks in and what works for one doesn't work for another.
So I have one son who fights when he's angry or scared. I have another son who freezes when he's angry or scared. And then my daughter runs. She's our flight. She's nervous, scared whenever she is running away from us, from somebody as fast as possible, trying to protect herself.
And so, you know, we thought like, oh, we'll do X, Y and Z as parents and that will work for our children. And realizing very quickly that there's a very different concoction for each child that we have to utilize in order to meet the needs of their heart. So that was just something that was very unexpected for us and has taken just a lot of education on our part to figure that out. [00:34:26]
Laura Dugger: I'd love to hear you unpack that a little bit further. So could you give a few helpful examples of how you parent well for someone who does retreat to fight, flight, or freeze?
Bettina Stevens: Yeah, of course. So for my son who fights, typically when I see him escalating, we have to get to a safe place fairly quickly for us as parents, for his siblings, and for himself. A lot of adopted children who have physical aggression as part of their behaviors, they will often do self-harm as well in addition to harming others.
For us, that's we've created a very safe, what we call our safe room in our home. And so when we see him starting to escalate, we get to the safe room and I just stay present with him. I don't talk to him. I don't try to prompt him to do anything until he's calm. We use the zones of regulation for that. [00:35:24]
So I don't know how familiar your listeners are, but essentially it's colors where kids don't necessarily have to say I'm angry or I'm sad. They can just say what zone they're in. So the green zone is happy and calm, ready to learn. They feel safe. The yellow zone is silly, goofy, maybe a little anxious, or scared. The blue zone is sad or tired. You know, maybe just feeling lethargic for the day. And then the red zone is unsafe, angry, mad, yelling, hitting.
So a lot of times I will just note, you know, we've made a rule in our home that if either of us are in the yellow zone or red zone, we're not going to talk about it until we're both calm. A lot of that for my son with physical aggression is just being present with him in the room and letting himself cope as long as he's not self-harming to make sure that he stays safe and we stay safe.
And then once he's calm, then we debrief what happened and problem solve together how we could do that differently the next time. [00:36:26] You know, sometimes that's 20 minutes and sometimes it's three hours. And it just totally depends on the day and his ability to regulate that day. That's something that we have set in place very quickly and are able to kind of manage as he gets older and larger.
And then we do use the zones of regulation for all three, because I think that's incredibly helpful. Our other son who freezes, who dissociates, he kind of goes into his own world when he's feeling scared or anxious or upset. A lot of times for us, that's just sitting with him. He typically tries to retreat, like he'll hide it under his bed or in a different space.
We have created what we call break spaces in our home that are okay for him to sit in when he needs a break. That way we're not hiding. There's so much shame from these kids. And so that need to hide comes from that internal shame.
And so we've really tried to deconstruct that with him of there's no shame in feeling emotion. And we really are here with you no matter what you're feeling or thinking. [00:37:33]
We have kind of three or four break spaces in the house that he can go sit in that has all sorts of sensory things he can fidget with or read or play with or draw just to kind of get himself back to being present. And then again, we sit with him and talk through what happened and how we could do that differently or potentially what was a trigger for him in that moment. So very different in terms of the aggression versus the disassociation.
Then my daughter is a fighter. When she starts to get dysregulated or upset, again, we prompt her to a break space. But a lot of times we have to prompt her to her room.
And then we just sit in there with her so that she can't run away from the problem, that she can't just ignore what's happening, that again, we help her regulate and calm down and then we talk through what happened and figure out what we could do differently.
But it is just so different for each of them and how you can get to the root of their heart and their triggers is very different. [00:38:38] We just have to play that by ear a lot and lots of what we call practicing outside the moment. So for all of our kids, we practice these coping strategies when they're calm, when they're in the green zone, when we're all feeling good so that when they get to maybe the yellow or red zone, there's more muscle memory there for them to know what to do and how to do that better.
Laura Dugger: Bettina, your intentionality in parenting is just astonishing.
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I appreciate you had given us a few things to consider that we may not be aware of if we're not parenting a child who's had trauma in their past or has unique special needs. But then coming more to you and Paul's story, what are some of the unexpected challenges that have come from parenting?
Bettina Stevens: Honestly, I didn't quite expect the amount of loneliness and isolation that would come in parenting children from trauma and parenting children with special needs. It's just a unique balance in trying to care for your children and trying to find time to feel like yourself again. [00:40:37]
Often in the seasons that we've had pretty intense mental health crises with our children, I've often felt like their needs always trump my own needs, which isn't healthy at the time. But I feel like that's kind of what we need to do to survive.
The things that I just never expected were little to no sleep. We've had seasons where my boys haven't slept for 60 straight nights and not even a wink. So we're just up with them all day, all night managing their triggers or their emotions.
The physical aggression and verbal aggression, of course, was not something I played out in my head as a parent. And having to, you know, keep a child safe who's your baby and you care for them while also trying to protect yourself, that was something that I just never envisioned as a parent.
Then a lot of it is just that feeling hopeless in the moments of like, God, you called us here and now we're here, and what do we do with all this difficulty in front of us? [00:41:43] And really, I never questioned my faith as much as I have in the last six years since we brought our boys home of just that hopeless feeling and feeling so isolated and alone and just really craving just relationship with people and relationship with God, you know.
Then the other thing is so many friendships lost. We've realized very quickly that the mess in our home, quote-unquote, is just a lot for people to walk into. And while some people are willing to show up in very surface-level ways, the majority of people are unwilling to really come in and see what's happening in front of us.
So we have lost a lot of friendships because unfortunately we can't go to parties or we can't go to playdates or we can't have people over like we used to as much because really we have to prioritize the needs of our children and the safety of their hearts. That has come very, very slow and steady with their ability to trust us and know that we are going to keep their interests in the forefront. [00:42:44]
Then I would say the biggest thing for me is I've had so many changes to my personality, a lot from the secondary trauma and compassion fatigue that comes from being a caregiver to children from trauma and also a caregiver for children with special needs.
So compassion fatigue is that emotional and physical exhaustion that really just diminishes your ability to empathize or feel compassion for others. Often people call it the negative cost of caring that happens over time as the intensity of your need to care-give is happening without reprieve.
So I feel like from the day we met our boys, you know, we have had to really jump in head first and really empathize and understand things that we never thought we could comprehend. And that hasn't gotten easier as they've gotten older. It's just gotten more intense in different ways. [00:43:45] So that compassion fatigue.
Then the secondary trauma is something that I never quite envisioned. And that is like the sudden development of our own PTSD symptoms that happen as a result of the trauma that you walk through with a child.
For me, that's become significant sensitivity to sound. So really hard for me to be in groups of people or louder areas. Even in the day, I often wear noise-canceling headphones in the day just to kind of drown out the world a little bit.
Hypervigilance and anxiety in situations outside our home with our children. So really having to feel like I am the giver of their safety, no matter where we are and outside our home, my hypervigilance and anxiety can be even more heightened just to make sure that obviously my kids are safe, but that other people are safe as well. And so, yeah, I've become a lot more introverted. I crave quiet more than ever.
Then really just figuring out having to regulate myself very differently than I did pre-parenting. [00:44:52] And just really allowing myself to be okay with letting a lot of things go in order to feel like our family is cared for well.
Laura Dugger: Just to lean into a few of those, do you feel like you have any support in this season to help stabilize some of those isolating feelings and all that you're facing?
Bettina Stevens: Yeah, little by little. The support group that I founded and the organization that I founded has just been a wonderful just breath of fresh air for me in that regard. Because unless you're parenting children like this, a lot of people just don't understand the depth of challenge and the depth of difficulty that comes in every day.
The families that we are in community with now since founding our organization has just been such a beautiful reprieve for our hearts to just feel seen in those moments and just for them to understand the nature of what it's like to have so much trauma in your home constantly, while also feeling like there's this expectation from the outside world to be a certain type of parent. [00:46:08] That dichotomy is really challenging to balance without somebody else anchoring you to the truth. Our community has just been a really beautiful balance for us in that moment.
Laura Dugger: It is amazing to think of the power of community.
Bettina Stevens: Yes, for sure.
Laura Dugger: What about... are there counseling resources available?
Bettina Stevens: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I would say I tell parents in particular all the time that there's no right way to do this. Every person is so different and every child is so different.
For me, I never envisioned myself needing a therapist. I felt like I was very well-versed in my emotions and my ability to have coping strategies in place. And oh, my goodness, realizing so quickly that having somebody objective to anchor you, to give you truth when it's really difficult to see who's also not in the trenches with you is really valuable. [00:47:14]
And so I highly recommend counseling for obviously for marriages, for couples, but also just for parents individually to work through your own trauma, your own insecurities, your own difficulties so that you can actually be a better parent for your kids.
I think that's different for every person, but really important to find a therapist who can understand adoption and foster care, trauma, special needs, so that when you're sharing things about your children or you're sharing emotions about yourself in terms of a reaction to your child's behavior, that there's an empathy and an understanding there that doesn't come from every therapist who maybe doesn't have experience with those types of situations.
So very encouraging to find someone that way. But I think that has been a beautiful part of my story just in terms of really anchoring myself to truth weekly in the midst of feeling so much overwhelm at times.
Laura Dugger: I think that is so wise. It's always helpful to hear both sides. [00:48:16] So now will you share what have been some of the greatest gifts and rewards of parenting?
Bettina Stevens: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I say all the time that adoption is equal parts brokenness and beauty, and that's so true. So having so much intentionality in our parenting and having to really change the way we think about our lives.
It has just been so beautiful to see my kids begin to understand their worth, to realize that they don't need to feel shame for everything that they do or say, for them to verbalize safety in our home. And when that happens, subsequently, they're able to share their hearts.
I don't know if you've ever seen the movie Hook, but the part where he kind of grabs his face and he's like, "There you are, Peter." That's how I feel with my kids all the time of just these glimpses of the tenderness of their hearts and just the beautiful pieces and gifts and talents that God placed in them in their mother's wombs. [00:49:22] You know, that those come out little by little by little as you peel away all of these layers of the onion.
So just those pieces of them where you get to see their true personality and their true selves has just been worth just every minute of heartache for us, because I always want them to just be their best selves and whatever that looks like. And just seeing them create their own relationship with Jesus has been so beautiful. So that is for sure the icing on the cake.
On my end of things, I think challenging myself to have really hard conversations around mental health, around race, around trauma and self-care has been such a great gift for me because it's something that I never really thought about. And now I'm really having to dive deep since I have two Black children and one Chinese daughter.
That is something that I have to constantly think about and put myself into and make myself feel uncomfortable so that I can make them have more safety around their identity and who they are on the outside, just as much as who they are on the inside. [00:50:29]
I say all the time that anything we do for God will more than likely never be comfortable. And that is something that I've really embraced in the parenting of my children. But just really being able to see their little hearts shine.
Laura Dugger: That is such a mature way to live. I want to go back. You had mentioned how powerful community has been. So can you think of what you would say is the most helpful thing that your community has done to support you and Paul and your family?
Bettina Stevens: Yeah. I would say the biggest thing that we've ever wanted that we still want to date is really just having people sit with us. I think there's something so powerful about just being physically present with somebody in some of their darkest moments and not trying to fix it or not trying to problem-solve, but really just saying, "Oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry. And I'm here for you." That has been the most powerful times of our lives where we've really felt seen. [00:51:31]
And obviously, in terms of seasons of crisis, people bringing food or doing some tangible things are wonderful. But really the thing that we need the most as a family is people just bearing witness to what's happening, even if it feels dark and heavy.
We've lost a lot of friends because we've had to hibernate with our kids as they heal and as we really allow them to feel safety. And so I think just people being willing to enter into that with you and really just sit with you has been the most powerful thing for our lives.
Laura Dugger: I'm more hesitant to ask the flip side, but I do think it's important for us to learn. Is there anything that's been the most harmful that your community maybe unintentionally did?
Bettina Stevens: I don't know that I realized how difficult it would be for people to want to empathize with what we were going through. And really that's what it's come down to is people having kind of the same expectations of us post-kids as they did pre-kids. [00:52:38] I think that's probably been the hardest thing.
The majority of people, you know, for them, the story was in bringing our kids home. And then once we brought our kids home, it was like, Oh, well, they're home and everything should be normal. You know, they should just be able to jump in. These kids are so blessed to have a family.
And really realizing how convoluted that was, because as soon as our kids came home, it was like we started over again. You know, that was when the real work started. And that's when we really had to change kind of everything we did in terms of our lives previously to acclimate that child to our family, but also attach to them and bond with them since we've missed four years of their lives.
I think that was probably the most hurtful thing was just people really ostracizing us often for not being able to show up to a party or or come over for dinner or just little things that I took so for granted before bringing our kids home that are just really challenging now as a family. [00:53:45]
I think a lot of that judgment and almost a little bit of condemnation came from people just being unwilling to understand our circumstances and why we couldn't do those things anymore, versus really trying to see what was happening inside the walls of our home and sitting with us in those moments. I think that has been the hardest part.
We really have lost a lot of friends in the process of this, just people who are, you know, not willing to sit in the mess. That was really hard to swallow but also, I think just really confirming for us of who are those people who are willing to see us like Jesus sees us.
Laura Dugger: Well, first, I'm so sorry just to hear the depths of the friendships being lost and people not being able to sit and be present what you feel like your soul is longing for, crying out for. I just think here you and Paul are doing what you know you were called to do and yet it came with all of this sacrifice. [00:54:50]
I'm sure you would have loved to attend those dinner parties. So it was such a selfless act. And so then to heap condemnation on top of that, that's just hard.
Bettina Stevens: Yeah, it was for sure. And something that we still work through regularly and are much more cautious of who we bring in to get to know our family, because it's heartbreaking for our kids, too, you know.
So, yeah, it's been a struggle. But also, like you said, we know that this is what we've been called to do and we know that this is what God created us for. So I think we've really had to rest in Him during those moments, for sure.
Laura Dugger: Well, if you did have to narrow it down to a few of the most powerful lessons God's taught you through your parenting journey, what would you share?
Bettina Stevens: He's always with us. Even when we feel he's the farthest away, He's right there with us. I think that was something that in the beginning was so difficult for me to see. [00:55:52] Then really realizing, like, we are the closest to the river when we're in the valley. It became more of a lament for me and just a sacred time with Him where I realized he's not surprised by my anger and He's not surprised by my heartache.
And it's okay to not have words. There's been so many nights where I've just played worship music and just wept because I felt like I couldn't utter one more word in prayer. I just felt like I'd prayed everything, there was nothing left to pray. And just realizing, like, in those moments, He is there to comfort us and be with us.
I really had to learn to trust Him day after day, even with no evidence of hope. I think those are the lessons that I hold on to, that even when I feel isolated and lonely from relationships in my community, that He is always there and He is never leaving us.
Laura Dugger: Wow, I've never heard that imagery before. And just thinking when we're on the mountaintop, we can gain perspective and we can see the river, we can see Him at work and see a little bit more of the picture. But absolutely being in the valley and being so near to him. That's powerful. [00:57:09]
Bettina Stevens: Yeah.
Laura Dugger: Bettina, what is something that you're passionate to communicate to everyone, specifically as it relates to adoption or foster care?
Bettina Stevens: I would say I have two really big points. First, to people who may know someone who's fostering or adopting or even has children with special needs. And that would just be that families need support. So much support.
You know, we as parents spend so much time investing hope, safety, healing into our children, and really, no one is doing that for the parents. So I would say the parents need just as much care as the children they're caring for. And really they just need people to bear witness to the beauty and the brokenness, as I mentioned earlier. You know, friendships and relationships are what keep families afloat.
I really believe that while not everyone is called to foster or adopt, everyone is called to support that mission. [00:58:09] I think one way to do that is to simply show up for these families and get to know them, get to know every member of the family, get to know what their needs are, what their fears are, you know, what makes them tick and really just allow each member of the family to feel cared for and supported in those times of crisis.
I would say that's one thing. Then the other side for foster adopted special needs families, I say all the time that it's okay to ask for help. It's so needed to ask for help. And it doesn't mean you're a failure.
I think for the first few years that we had our boys, I felt like a terrible mom. I felt like I was failing at everything and that even choosing something like a medicinal intervention would be me failing as a parent. And just realizing quickly that I am not meant to be their savior. I am not meant to be their healer. I'm meant to be their mom. I think that I can love them unconditionally, but their healing and their ability to find who they are is going to come from God. [00:59:16] Letting a lot of those expectations go is so important.
And then really just asking for help, constantly asking for help for the little things, for the big things. And I say that could be help from people or it could be help from doctors. Before I really felt like putting my children on medication would be me failing because I couldn't meet their needs. And really, it's just that their brains and bodies are wired differently and maybe that's exactly what they need in order to be able to access who they are.
I just really encourage families to let those expectations go of you feeling like you need to heal every part of your kids. Really let that go and really hand it over to Jesus and then really just ask for help.
Laura Dugger: I just want to spend a few more minutes really focusing on those parents who are in the trenches right now. I think your specificity is maybe going to help stir some ideas for them as well. [01:00:16] So for you, what keeps you encouraged and renewed or ready to face each day?
Bettina Stevens: For me, that's always time with Jesus. I am not a morning person. I used to sleep in till 10, 10:30 before I had kids when I could. I just really, really crave just a slow morning. But with kiddos and even my own symptoms of secondary traumatic stress, I really needed alone time to feel like I'm ready for the day.
I get up every morning at 4:15, 4:30. I spend time with Jesus. That could be prayer. That could be worship. That could be just listening to a Dwell Bible app or something where I can just listen to the word. That could be journaling.
But really, it's just a quiet, reverent time for me to feel like I can regroup, get my head on for the day, and really just kind of give all of my insecurities, my fears, my feelings of overwhelm for the day over to Jesus. [01:01:19] So that's something I do Monday through Friday every morning just to kind of get myself ready for the day.
Exercise is huge for me. I exercise six days a week religiously. And that's something that keeps me feeling like I can function and kind of, again, feel prepared for the day.
Quality time with Paul is so, so important to me. And it doesn't come very often, but we are very intentional about that time. That's something that keeps us connected and keeps me renewed and just feeling like I can be a wife just as much as I can be a mom, which I think is few and far between for those of us who have littles at home.
Then really support groups with other families who understand. So we run a support group, but we also just spend time with other families who have other adopted children or special needs children and just really have some solidarity and just communication around the struggles, but also the beauties of that. So those are all ways I keep myself encouraged and renewed. [01:02:19]
Then truthfully, I see a therapist every week and I'm on an anti-anxiety medication, which both of which I was so reluctant to do because, again, I really felt like I was failing as a human being. I think really just that stigma around mental health was something I never really discussed growing up. And now I'm such a huge advocate for because I really do feel like for me to be my best self, I really do need a little bit more assistance right now in these times of struggle.
I think that that has been something that I've been so grateful to just feel freedom to do and not be judged or feel shamed about, but just really embrace that as part of my healing journey.
Laura Dugger: Just want to encourage you that I think it's even more courageous to not only recognize that but then to follow up and do something about it. So I admire you so much. I appreciate that answer. [01:03:17]
Just thinking of that parent now, if they're feeling desperate and they just want another handle to grab on to, I think you've given some great ideas. Dwell is amazing. Obviously, time with the Lord is just necessity. Are there any other resources or practical applications that you would encourage them to try?
Bettina Stevens: Yeah. I think some of that comes from the point that they're feeling overwhelmed. So sometimes for me, it's really just a gauge. Like I have a zero to ten gauge. I talk about this a lot in our support groups with our families. But just where are you in that realm of overwhelm or stress or compassion fatigue and knowing kind of your early warning signs of where you are in that process so that you can ask for help or take a break?
So for me, I love to cook and I love to bake, and that's something that just fills me up. And so I know when I get to the point where I'm really having trouble meal planning for the week, like that just feels so overwhelming to me, I know that I'm really not in a great space and I'm headed towards an even worse space. [01:04:27] That's like an early warning sign for me of something I know that I need to regroup on and figure out a way to do that.
For a lot of parents, I would say, really figure out where you are in that spectrum and write down your early warning signs and then write down the things that you know help. Like for me, I take a shower, a hot shower every evening after I put my kids down, because sometimes it just helps me wash the day away.
It was actually something that my son's trauma therapist recommended to me years ago, and I was like, "Oh, that sounds awful." And now it's something I do every single night. It really helps me regroup. I really do feel like it's a reset for the evening so that I can actually be present for time with my husband or present for just other things I want to get done in the evening.
So that's something that has been hugely helpful for me to just feel like I'm kind of starting fresh once the kids are in bed and can just regroup for myself. [01:05:26]
Then, you know, a few other things that come with that are just little pieces of the day. Like for me, I love lighting candles in the evening or in the morning. That could be taking breaks in the day. I regularly set breaks in the day for the kids and for myself so that I can just come in my room and regroup for a few minutes so that I can stay recharged and refreshed.
But I think if you as a parent are feeling overwhelmed in your confidence or ability to parent your children, there's so many books and resources. You know, the Karen Purvis Institute is huge. The Connected Child, The Connected Parent, just other really beautiful resources that you can go to to figure out ways to better understand the needs of your children and really feel like you can be confident in parenting them moving forward.
Laura Dugger: Thank you for giving such practical applications. And now, will you just tell us a little bit more about your nonprofit and direct us where we can find you online? [01:06:25]
Bettina Stevens: Yeah, of course. In 2018, we launched Reclaimed Hope Initiative, and the name came just from, as I mentioned before, just walking with so many families who just kept saying, "I feel so hopeless. I feel so hopeless. I feel so hopeless." And we have been there as well and just really feeling that lack of hope in our parenting journey.
So we decided, like, how can we help people reclaim their hope? And so we launched Reclaimed Hope Initiative really as just a support group for families. We started with about six and in nine months, we had more than quadrupled in size. And families just kept bringing more families.
Since then, we've launched all sorts of programming. But essentially we walk families through IEPs, navigation for schools, specifically for trauma-competent care in schools, and how to really advocate for your child's needs. We help families navigate Medicaid waivers. So if you have a child with special needs, how to get your child on the waiver, how to fill out the paperwork. [01:07:27]
We do meal deliveries, therapeutic counseling for parents. We do a trauma camp for children called Camp Hope. So any youth with a traumatic past who can't access a regular summer camp is able to come to our camp with some trauma-competent caregivers in place and just the ability for them to feel like they can be a kid.
We also do respite care and then we train and hire caregivers to pair with families who are able to manage a range of trauma needs all the way to special needs. And it's just been something that was very unexpected. I say all the time I very selfishly started our support groups because Paul and I needed support. And it has just been a beautiful fruition of God's calling of our adoption, of our ability to parent.
Paul and I are also licensed foster parents. And so just the foster care journey and just supporting families through those periods of time, it has been so beautiful and something that I'm now doing full-time in addition to caring for my kids. [01:08:29] So I'm just so grateful that a) God planted the seed so long ago, but b) that He's really given me the capacity to care for others like I needed to be cared for in those moments of darkness.
Laura Dugger: This nonprofit just sounds absolutely amazing, and I think it's a great first place for people to go and learn a little bit more, see if it can be helpful for their journey. Could you give us the website one more time and we'll link to it in the show notes?
Bettina Stevens: Yeah, of course. It's just reclaimedhopeinitiative.org. Then you can also find us on Instagram or Facebook at Reclaimed Hope Initiative.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. Thank you for sharing that. You know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, Bettina, what is your savvy sauce?
Bettina Stevens: I would say for me it's to never stop being intentional about your dreams. [01:09:29] I think that there is such a beauty around the gifts and talents that God gave us in our mother's womb as you were a little, as you got older. And I know for me, the weekends that I can get away either by myself or with Paul and just spend time dreaming about the gifts God has given me and how I want to utilize them or for our organization or for my family, those are the times that I feel most like myself, that I feel the most refreshed, that I feel so close to God.
I think even in really difficult seasons, it's so important to never stop dreaming. So I would say be intentional about your dreams, set aside time and really just trust that God has a beautiful story that he's writing even in the midst of hardship.
Laura Dugger: Your faithful obedience to God just radiates from you and you worship Him by the way you live your life. So thank you for letting us in on your journey today and thank you for being my guest. [01:10:31]
Bettina Stevens: Yeah. Thank you for having me, Laura. I appreciate it.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [01:11:33] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.
Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [01:12:33] And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [01:13:38] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Sep 16, 2024
Monday Sep 16, 2024
240. Stories Series: God's Protection and Covering in Parenting with Brenda Dugger
**Transcription Below**
Psalms 34:7 (NIV) "The angel of the LORD encamps around those who fear him, and he delivers them."
Questions and Topics We Cover:
- What was life like, growing up as an identical twin?
- Will you share how He miraculously protected your sons multiple times?
- Do you have any favorite stories that come to mind about Mark?
Brenda Dugger is a retired chief nursing executive and hospital administrator. She is married to Russ and they are the parents of three grown, married sons. They are also grandparents to 11 grandchildren.
Previous Episodes on The Savvy Sauce with Mark Dugger:
The Inside Scoop on Chick-fil-A with Mark Dugger
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Thank You to Our Sponsor: Dream Seller Travel, Megan Rokey
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Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: Do you love to travel? If so, then let me introduce you to today's sponsor, Dream Seller Travel, a Christian-owned and operated travel agency. Check them out on Facebook or online at DreamSellerTravel.com.
Well, this is a special conversation because it is with my dear mother-in-law. Brenda Dugger is my guest today, and she's a retired chief nursing executive and hospital administrator. When I met her and came into the family, she was the vice president at St. Mary's Hospital in Athens, Georgia. But even though that hospital is close to the University of Georgia, her loyalty remains with Georgia Tech, where her husband and three sons attended school.
She is married to the love of her life, Russ, and when they became grandparents, they requested to be referred to as Papa Bear and Mama Bear. [00:01:20] So that is what our family lovingly calls them. But for today, I'm pleased to introduce you to Brenda Dugger. Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Brenda.
Brenda Dugger: Thank you, Laura. It is such a pleasure to be here with you today to talk about what my experience has been in the past and also to thank you for being such a loving and sweet daughter-in-law.
Laura Dugger: You're so sweet. I love you. I have been so excited about this conversation. But will you just begin by going back to your childhood and giving us a glimpse into what your life was like growing up?
Brenda Dugger: Well, I have been very, very blessed in my life. First, to be a twin, because that's how I started out. I am an identical twin. My dad was an identical twin, so he knew something about being a twin and how to treat twins and how to handle the issues that we had. [00:02:22]
But how blessed it is to be a part of someone who you started out life with but even at 76 years old, we're still wonderful buddies. We shop together. We talk to each other almost every day. And what a blessing that is that we have our lives to share together.
Her name is Glenda, by the way. Glenda, and mine is Brenda. We answered to anything from sister to twin when we were growing up. We also dressed alike until we were 18 years old. We are both registered nurses, and we have just enjoyed almost the same things.
Many times we go to a restaurant, even today, and we'll order exactly the same thing. And it's not because we're copying each other. It's just our likes are so compatible, so alike.
But I'm so blessed to be a twin. I'm blessed to be a mother, a grandmother, a mother-in-law, and certainly a believer because God has certainly been a part of my life and will, of course, always be a part of my life. [00:03:32]
Being a twin, to me, means being never alone. It's having somebody to talk to. She and I can communicate with each other without even having to say the words. I can look at her, and she will know generally what I mean and vice versa.
A funny story, when we were about 18 years old, we were in old Walgreens, and they had support poles beams in between the aisles, and they had mirrors around them. One time I was talking away from her, and all of a sudden I realized that there were people gathered around me looking, and I was talking into the mirror to my sister. It was great.
But even going to school, we hated to be separated. They were going through a time of, oh, twins should be separated and in different rooms. And we were in first grade, and we had our desk, and I was crying, and Glenda was crying. She was in another classroom across the hall. [00:04:40]
And so even the teachers dragged our desk up to the very edge of the door and opposite each other so we could see and wave each other. Didn't work, though. No, no, we had to be in the same class, or we would just cry all day. We had been together all through elementary school, and then in high school, we had some separate classes. But then we chose to go to nursing school together and enjoyed that.
Laura Dugger: I'm also curious, because faith is such a meaningful part of your life, were you and Glenda saved at the same time? Did you surrender your life to Jesus around the same time, or was that totally separate?
Brenda Dugger: No, there again, we are twins. And so we think and have been through most of our experiences similarly. We grew up, and my mother was ill and in and out of the hospital a lot when we were growing up. [00:05:42] And Glenda and I learned very quickly that we leaned on each other, and we leaned on God.
I remember so well the ambulance came for my mother and took her away, and just she was crying and Dad was crying, and we just felt like the world was falling apart. But we hugged each other and we cried out to God to help us and to get us through it. And that was at a very early age.
We both accepted Christ and was baptized when we were 10 years old. And a lot of that had to do with my dad. He had great faith, and he loved my mother so, so dearly, and stood by her all those years of when she was emotionally and physically ill. So I'm grateful to him for my religious faith, and I'm also grateful to the Lord that He got us through all those times.
Laura Dugger: Well, are you also willing to share when she was in a nursing home toward the end of her life, is that right?
Brenda Dugger: Yes.
Laura Dugger: But your dad did something special every day. [00:06:51]
Brenda Dugger: He certainly did. Mother was in a nursing home, and the nursing home was just down the hill, literally a little small hill, and the other facility, assisted living, Dad was in... This was only in their early 70s. Mother was placed in a nursing home when she was 70 because he couldn't keep her at home anymore. But every day, Dad would go down to the nursing home and visit Mother.
And he would bring her something. It might be a cookie off of his meal tray. It might be a cookie or it might be a piece of candy that he had saved back, or it might be a flower or whatever. But he brought her a present, something to give her every day.
Laura Dugger: I love that love story. Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: I think it's so endearing. I remember first coming into the family and finding out that you were an identical twin, and like you said, even your names, Brenda and Glenda, and then your father was Elvin, and his brother was Melvin. Just so sweet. I've always been fascinated by twins. [00:10:03]
I majored in psychology, so I remember learning about these case studies, even where twins would be separated at birth and raised separately, and when you would find them as adults, their nature was so similar. And like you said, they would even order the same things or just have some uncanny similarities.
So I have prayed for as long as I can remember to have identical twin girls, and God didn't see fit to put that as our family story, but I love that I married into a family with identical twin girls. So thank you for sharing those sweet stories.
But you and Russ have now been married many years, and you have three grown sons who are all married with 11 grandchildren. And if we pause, though, that's the picture now. So if we rewind back to you being a relatively new mom of young boys, I know from the stories that you've shared that God really had a special hand of protection on them. [00:11:10] So will you share how he miraculously protected your sons several times?
Brenda Dugger: I certainly will. Having three sons and only having just the one twin sister, I really would have loved to have had little girls, you know, to dress them up and be frilly and whatever. Well, I prayed for girls, but God didn't see it that way, so I had the first boy, the second boy, and here comes the third boy.
But you know what? He was so special. The first moment I held him, he cuddled and was just so sweet and has been so special to me. Of course, I'm talking about Mark, Laura's husband, my baby. But what a special time that has been.
But, you know, having boys, I remember so well a story my grandmother told me, the mother of my dad and his twin brother. [00:12:11] She was protective over her two sons as well. And when they went into the service for World War II, they actually wanted to be pilots.
So my grandmother, though, told me years later that she intercepted the letter of acceptance for their being a pilot and didn't tell them until they had enlisted a year later in the regular Army because she didn't want her boys to be lost, both of them being pilots in the war. So I kind of understand that you want to protect your sons.
My protective nature, I think, is because of the twin issue, Glenda was kind of the more adventurous type, and I was more of the protector. Even today, I protect her, not as a helicopter sister or a hoverer or whatever, but I just want to make sure, being the oldest twin by 15 minutes, of just wanting to make sure she's okay. [00:13:16]
But going back to the stories about the boys, my first two were 21 months apart. It was summertime, and we went to the gas station, and I was filling up the car, and my oldest, Greg, was 2 years old, he was in the car seat, and my youngest was 2 months old, and he was in the baby infant seat at that point. Then we could have them in the front seat.
So I filled up with gas and ran and pulled up near the office to pay. So I ran in the office to pay, and I no longer had a foot in that office but I heard a crash and turned around, and my car was suspended up on top of the gas pump. And all I could think of was the car was going to explode, the car was going to explode.
But I ran out there, and my 2-year-old had gotten out of his car seat, crawled over the front seat, and disengaged the gear shift, put it out of park, and had guided the car over the gas pump. [00:14:28] But the boys were fine. Fortunately, it was a new station, and so they had an automatic cutoff on the gas pump. Unfortunately, it was a brand-new pump, and I paid dearly to have it replaced.
Laura Dugger: Oh my goodness.
Brenda Dugger: Another story about the boys was Jimmy, my middle son, we had just moved into a new house and had the preacher coming over for dinner that night. The boys had been playing outside, and they were playing hide-and-go-seek. Well, the older boy, Greg, 2 years older than Jimmy, he was 5 and Jimmy was 3, and he came in the house, and he said, "I can't find Jimmy. I can't find Jimmy." And so we looked everywhere. Everywhere we looked for him.
And it was hot that day. It was in May, and it was probably 90-something outside already. So we were looking for Jimmy, and finally, after it seemed like 30 minutes, I'm sure it was not that long, but Greg came up out of the basement, and he said, "Mommy, I heard the angels, and they told me that Jimmy was in the car." [00:15:42]
We went outside to the car, it was a little Toyota Corolla, and it was the kind that you could get into the trunk without having a key or without opening the car and opening the trunk. So Jimmy, at 3 years old, had climbed into the trunk and had shut the door, and it was over 100 degrees in there.
He was trying to kick himself out. We didn't hear him. He had cut his foot so badly, so badly that he had stitches. When we opened the car door, he was gray. He couldn't speak. He had already wet himself. I mean, he was as near death as we could have imagined.
Brought him in the house, bathed him off, and rushed him to the hospital. But I'm positive that the angels guided my sweet big boy to tell me where he was so that we could find him.
Laura Dugger: Goodness gracious, that brings tears to my eyes every single time. [00:16:43] It makes me think of this verse from Psalm 34:7. And it's one that we pray over our girls, especially when we're more aware of safety if we're separated for a period of time. But I feel like your story really brings this to life.
It says, "The angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear him, and he delivers them." And I'm so grateful he delivered Jimmy that day. And that wasn't your last run-in to the hospital, especially with Jimmy. He's had so many stitches.
Brenda Dugger: He really has. Jimmy was playing basketball for his high school team and Mark, our youngest, six years younger than Jimmy, was at another basketball game. Of course, we went to Mark's game first.
And so while we were there, I got a page on the hospital pager, and it was telling us that Jimmy had been injured, and so badly injured that he went up for a layup shot and then got caught by another player's elbow, and his head hit the floor so hard that the audience heard his head crack. [00:17:56]
So we met them at the hospital, and Jimmy could not remember who he was or what day it was or whatever. He just kept asking, "Did we win? Did we win?" He was okay after about three days. But what a terrible, terrible accident it was. Of course, for us not having been right there with him, it was quite a shock, but he survived.
Laura Dugger: Well, and I'm sure your medical background came in so helpful countless times for all of the boys. But I do remember you laughingly sharing one time, too, "Oh, they knew us at the emergency room by the first name."
Brenda Dugger: Oh, they did. They did, yes. And those follow-up questions of, Well, have you had any other injuries lately?
Laura Dugger: Mercifully, they were brought up in a very loving home, but three boys together, that can be rambunctious, I'm sure. [00:18:55]
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Well, Mark has been a guest on The Savvy Sauce before, and he co-hosts from time to time, so people are probably already a little familiar with him. [00:19:53] But I would love to hear one of your favorite stories about him as well. So do you have anything that comes to mind?
Brenda Dugger: Well, Mark, as I said, he cuddled with me the first moment that he was born. And he has been just as loving and as considerate. He's very much a pleaser. He worked with the other boys. Now, he had a lot of rough times with the boys, putting up with two older brothers, one six and one eight years older than him. But he was just always such a joy and remains a joy to our lives.
He gave us some scares along the way. One of the times was when he was about 4 months old, changed his diaper, and there was a big old hernia. And being a nurse, I covered that hernia up just like, Oh, Lord, please take it away, please take it away. But he didn't, and so we had to have surgery. [00:20:53] But it was like I had... oh, to hand that baby over to the surgeon and to the nurses there was just awful. But he survived and did well.
The other time that he really scared us was we went to Alcatraz and visited the old prison in San Francisco. We took a boat ferry out to the Alcatraz, and we took the tour, and everybody had their headphones on, listening from cell to cell and hearing the noises of the old prison where they used to eat and what the stories were within the cells and what some of the men had done. And all of a sudden, I looked around, and Mark was gone. He was gone.
Well, we had gotten engrossed in listening to the stories of Alcatraz, and he had too, and so he had wandered off. We looked all over that prison. [00:21:55] And, of course, all I could think of at that point was somebody was going to get him just having heard all those horrible stories. But we found him, and I held on to him like never before.
Laura Dugger: Yes, because I believe he was only 8 years old at that time.
Brenda Dugger: He was.
Laura Dugger: And he said he remembers that [clunk?] sound.
Brenda Dugger: Oh, absolutely. They had the sound effects of the cells closing and being cut off from everybody, and the mean men were there. It was frightening for him and frightening for us, too.
Mark not only meant and still means to us his loving nature. He shares that with other people. I recently went to a lady's dinner at our church, and a lady came up to me, and she said, "Are you Mark Dugger's mother?" And I said, "Yes." And she said, "Well, I'm Miss Esby." [00:22:54]
Miss Esby was his preschool teacher of long, long ago, and she remembered how wonderful he was. And what she said about him, I updated her that he had four little girls and that he was living in Illinois and that he was happy. And her one first comment about him was, "I bet he's the best father."
Laura Dugger: She is absolutely right. He is a wonderful husband and father. I love that so much. I remember another story that one of his baseball coaches at the end of the year had said, "You know, Dugger was one of my favorite players to ever coach because he's so coachable."
Brenda Dugger: Yeah, that's right. He was.
Laura Dugger: And he was adaptable.
Brenda Dugger: So loved. So well thought of. The fact that he's mentoring now so many young people in his role at Chick-fil-A and then teaching his own daughters and now soon to teach a program at church, it's so fitting. [00:24:04]
Laura Dugger: Well, you clearly share a love for Mark. But are there any other stories that you want to share just in general of God sustaining you throughout your life?
Brenda Dugger: Oh, there were so many times that God has intervened. One of the stories that's so dear to me is that when my dad's mother and father were elderly, my grandfather was near death, but my grandmother was certainly by his bedside all the time. But she had related to me that she didn't want to have to see him take his last breath.
Well, I went to visit him in the hospital and stayed with her. I happened to be there on the day that he died, and she was by herself. We went to lunch and came back, and when we came back, there was a definite difference in his breathing, and he had gone downhill very quickly. [00:25:04]
So there were nurses scurrying around. His blood pressure was dropping. He was only breathing intermittently, and doctors were coming in and out and whatever. And I looked over in the chair, and my grandmother was asleep and so peaceful. And my grandfather, he just took his last breath, and he died so peacefully, and I was able to say to my grandmother, "Mama, he's gone."
What a gift that was to God. One, that she was not by herself, and two, that my grandfather died so peacefully, and she did not see him take his last breath, but was there.
Laura Dugger: It's just incredible because God truly delights in every detail of our lives. And what a unique longing that she had, and He was so merciful to grant that.
Brenda Dugger: Absolutely. It reminds me of my favorite verse, Psalms 103:8-10. [00:26:04] "The Lord is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love. He will not always be the accuser, nor will he harbor any grudges forever. He does not treat us as we deserve for our sins, nor repay us according to what we deserve in our iniquities." How blessed we are that God doesn't hold grudges.
Laura Dugger: Amen to that. I love that so much. Thank you for sharing that scripture. You are already familiar we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Brenda Dugger: Well, my savvy sauce is a good, good friend of mine who recently passed away, she had given me this example quite a while ago. But it was to accept or alienate. I learned that so well in nursing school. [00:27:06] You don't treat people according to their wealth or whether they're dirty or whether they cause their illness or whether they're pleasant or whether they're happy or whatever.
You have to accept people as they are and where they are and why they are where they are. That has helped me a lot. You can't change people. You don't challenge them. I rarely have political discussions because you're not going to change people about how they feel about their political convictions or where they are. But they're all different. We're all God's children, whether we're red, yellow, black, and white, or whatever our religion is. God loves us and loves us for what we are.
I also have used that theology in the way that I treat my adult children. You've given them all you can give them by the time they're grown. And then you just let God take over. He's got a plan. [00:28:08] It has to be their plan. And usually, their plans are so good. And even if you don't understand them, you can ask questions about them, give them suggestions, and they're always open to those. But just accept what they want to do and support them, love them, and care for them wherever they are.
Laura Dugger: We're grateful recipients of that. This time has been such a treasure to get to preserve this conversation. And I adore you. I love you so much. And I'm grateful that you're my mother-in-law. I'm so thankful for all these stories that you shared and your faithfulness to the Lord because that is leaving an eternal impact on generations yet to even come. So I love you and thank you for being my guest.
Brenda Dugger: Well, thank you, Laura, and thank you for being my daughter. Because I could not ask for a better prayer warrior. When I have something to pray for, and she does the same for me, we text each other and tell each other what we're praying for, what we're thinking about. [00:29:17]
And one of the special things that I have to tell you that she does, one of the things that was so hard for me was having Mark live so far away and then having the children that I couldn't see but once, probably two or three times a year. But Laura sends me pictures every day of the girls. Who could ask for more?
Laura Dugger: Thank you.
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. [00:30:18] We need a Savior.
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.
Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:31:22] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:32:24]
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.