The Savvy Sauce

Sharing the Mental Load in Marriage and its Positive Correlation to Enjoying Great Sex: Interview with Dr. Morgan Cutlip (Episode 283)

*Disclaimer* This episode contains adult content and is not recommended for young listeners.

 

Hebrews 12:15 NLT “Look after each other so that none of you fails to receive the grace of God. Watch out that no poisonous root of bitterness grows up to trouble you, corrupting many.”

 

*Transcription Below*

 

About Dr. Morgan Cutlip: 

It's hard to know where to start so I'll start with what matters most to me and that's my relationships.

 

I'm a mother to two kids, Effie (12) and Roy (9). They are hilarious, spirited, spicy, deeply thoughtful and emotional kids. I adore them and being their mother. They've challenged me in the most surprising and wonderful ways. I'm married to my high school sweetheart, Chad. I always feel like I lose a little street cred when I say that so, for the record, we didn't date that entire time and eventually reconnected years after college on MySpace (yup, now I've aged myself). He's the love of my life, an incredible man that loves others deeply, works so very hard, and continues to be open to growth and change.

 

I’ve worked in the field of relationship education for over 15 years alongside my father, Dr. John Van Epp, who is the founder of Love Thinks and developer of multiple relationship education courses that have been taught to over a million people worldwide. I started traveling to conferences with him when I was in junior high and so, in many ways, it feels like I’ve grown up in the relationship education field. He’s amazing and brilliant and I’m blessed to have learned so much from him over the years we worked together and just cherish our relationship.

 

I distinctly remember a conversation with my dad over 20 years ago where I said that someday I wanted to support women, but I just wasn’t sure how.

 

Fast forward 10 years and Effie (our oldest) was born and, holy moly, did motherhood hit me like a ton of bricks and I completely lost myself in motherhood (you can read the full story in my book). 🙂 I knew that one day when I came out of the fog of early motherhood I wanted to do something to help moms navigate it better.

 

I had a lot of skill and practice translating psychological theory, research, and concepts into tangible and practical advice so I got to work creating accessible content to help moms navigate their relationship with their kids, partners, and themselves differently.

 

Through my career, I created the My Love Thinks blog, the @DrMorganCutlip Instagram, the Love Thinks Podcast, and The Mother Load course along with other courses, workshops, and targeted eGuides and authored the book Love Your Kids Without Losing Yourself: 5 Steps to Banish Guilt & Beat Burnout When You Already Have Too Much to Do. These tools have been accessed by hundreds of thousands of women worldwide.
Dr. Morgan’s Website

Dr. Morgan’s Books

Dr. Morgan’s Instagram

 

Thank you to Our Sponsor: Francie Hinrichsen, Founder of Founding Females and Author of Dream, Build, Grow

 

Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce:

7 Easy Changes to Enhance Your Sexual Intimacy in Marriage with Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner 

269 Questions for More Connection and Laughter in Marriage with Casey and Meygan Caston

Other Podcast Mentioned:

132. Pursuing Your God-Given Dream with Francie Hinrichsen

 

Related Article from Savvy Snacks:

Marriage Scripture I am Loving

 

Topics and Questions We Discuss:

1. Will you define mental load and walk us through the reasons why it’s silently crushing marriages today…and will you also explain why universally, mothers are the ones impacted the most? 
2. What’s the correlation between sharing the mental load and enjoying a more exhilarating sex life in marriage? 
3. What’s the vision you can cast for us if we put systems in place to habitually converse about mental load in marriage, even if it feels cumbersome at first?

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 - 0:10)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 2:06) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.

 

If you are looking to start a business or side hustle, but you're not sure how to begin, I want to encourage you to pick up your copy of Dream, Build, Grow: A Female's Step-by-Step Guide for How to Start a Business. You can find it at foundingfemalesco.com.

 

First of all, I want to wish a very happy birthday to my amazing husband, Mark. I hope it's an awesome day, and thank you, babe, for leading this part of our marriage so well. I love you so much and hope it's a great day.

 

Today, I get to interview Dr. Morgan Cutlip, and she's a relationship expert and an author. And this second book that she released is entitled A Better Share: How Couples Can Tackle the Mental Load for More Fun, Less Resentment, and Great Sex. We're going to dive into each of those subcategories, and this chat is amazing for both husbands and wives.

 

And I think it's going to leave you with motivation and ideas rather than any shame or resentment. So especially if you're parents, I hope you listen in. Here's our chat.

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Morgan.

 

Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (1:54 – 1:56) Thank you so much for having me.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:57 – 2:06) I'd love to just start here, because you're a relationship expert. What does your daily life in work actually look like?

 

Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (2:07 - 3:07) Oh, my God. No one has ever asked me this. Okay, so we have two kids.

 

I'm married, been married for 17 years. We just celebrated our anniversary, and we have two kids, 12 and 9, and we do a homeschool hybrid. So, my work life, it might look like I work a lot, but it's usually cramming it into weird times.

 

But they go to an academy or a school with other homeschool families three days a week. So, Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays are the days that I try to do all of the things and get all of my work done. And then Mondays and Fridays, I am with the kids.

 

And then my husband travels just about every week for work. So, a lot of times I'm sort of just cruising solo and outsourcing as much as I can handle and can afford and feel okay about and just trying to squeeze as much out of my time and my energy that I can.

 

Laura Dugger: (3:08 - 3:14) I love it, and I'm relating. I'm a homeschooling mom as well, so fitting it all in when you can.

 

Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (3:15 – 3:16) Yes, yes.

 

Laura Dugger: (3:17 – 3:22) And then those days that you are working or doing writing or different things, what does your work life look like?

 

Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (3:23 - 4:06) Yeah, so usually, you know, right now I just finished launching my second book. So, I'm really trying to move a little slower, take a little break. I launched two books in three years, wrote them and launched them.

 

And so, it felt like a really just an extended season of just constant time famine and busyness. So right now, my work life is doing interviews like this. I'm working on developing some new courses.

 

I've developed two so far. I'm working on another one right now, launching those, creating some content, doing workshops. I'm speaking at a conference this weekend.

 

So, it varies every single week what my work life looks like.

 

Laura Dugger: (4:06 - 4:32) Very real picture. And I loved in your last book just how you define mental load. So, can you give us a definition of mental load and walk us through the reasons why it seems to be silently crushing marriages today and why it is that universally mothers are typically the ones who suffer the most?

 

Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (4:33 - 8:23) Yeah, so I'm just going to give if we need to go into a deeper definition, I will as we're chatting. So, I'm just going to give the 30,000-foot definition and then answer your other questions. So, the mental load is the seemingly never-ending running to do list that we carry around in our minds.

 

It has two key components. The first is that the majority of tasks in the mental load are invisible. The invisibility of these tasks makes it really hard to explain to our partners to get appreciation around for it even to be seen by members of our family and to outsource.

 

The second aspect is that the mental load takes up cognitive real estate. So, this just means that it takes up space in our brains that tends to crowd out energy and space that we need for other things like patients, like being present, remembering things. You know, a lot of us will say, oh, I have mom brain, you don't know, I put my keys.

 

Well, a lot of times it's because we have so much of our brain space occupied by other things. We're sort of become a bit more forgetful. It can crowd out space for creative energy and in relationships, it can crowd out the space to really find our desire around our sexual life.

 

So, the mental load is interesting because it's talked about on social media as a women's issue. But everybody has a mental load. This is not something that is unique to women.

 

Where it is unique to women is that in home and family life, the majority of tasks associated with the mental load is carried by women. And so even though women are working in massive amounts outside of the home or inside of the home or have side hustles or full-time jobs, we're still doing the majority of the labor involved in the mental load. And so, what happens in our relationships is that it starts to develop into a feeling of unfairness.

 

A lot of times the women tend to start to feel very overwhelmed. And then this unfairness starts to breed resentment. And one of the most common cycles that I see happening in relationships is that usually really kicks in after kids.

 

So mental load exists before kids, after kids, it gets real big, really fast. And it's that the woman will feel like her life has shifted in a pretty significant and just like palpable way. While her partners has sort of stayed relatively the same, even though that's not entirely true, but it feels that way.

 

And eventually she'll reach a place where she kind of gets, you know, depending on how comfortable she feels sharing what's going on with her. She gets overwhelmed. She approaches her partner.

 

Her partner doesn't fully understand it. Some of the most common and unfortunate responses are getting defensive around it. You know, I do a lot too.

 

You're saying I don't do enough. It's never enough for you. Minimizing it or the sort of hardship Olympics where the two people start competing around who's doing more.

 

And so over time she learns that she can't talk about this with her partner without going through all of that rigmarole. And so, she either starts to get louder, which shifts their marital dynamic in a really significant way because she becomes the nagging mother and he's the child she's sort of chasing after. Or she shoves it down and distance and disconnection really starts to take root.

 

And it's unfortunate because a lot of times, even though she's come to him, he still doesn't quite maybe understand what's going on. And so, both partners start to really disconnect. And it becomes, once you get years down the line, it can become hard to understand where this disconnection really originated from.

 

I think I'm missing a question in there, but I'm going to pause.

 

Laura Dugger: (8:24 - 8:34) No, you actually conquered all of those. Why it is that mothers have it and what the definition is and why it's silently crushing marriages.

 

Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (8:34 - 12:18) Yeah, I'm happy to go into a little bit why women tend to carry it because I think it's really important to understand how this happens. I have a really strong belief that when it comes to this area of our relationships, we really need to come at it with a goal of understanding each other's perspectives, how these things developed, how we got to where we are. So that we can sort of depersonalize some of the patterns that have developed in our relationship and actually then confront them as a team.

 

So, part of the reason women tend to carry the mental load, there's several, I'll just cover a couple. But one is the socialization of women and just our society, which is that women are socialized to self-sacrifice for the preservation of our relationships. Men are socialized to provide financial and physical security.

 

So, what this means is that we enter into our relationships once they're committed and then parenthood with different set of priorities. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying this is what tends to happen.

 

And also, society holds us to standards around these different priorities. So, I remember not that long ago, our son was going to an event at school in the evening and it was cold and it was raining. And I was like, grab your coat.

 

And he kept arguing with me and he finally said, “Mom, I'm not going to wear it. So, then I'll probably lose it, which then you'll be upset with me for losing it. And I'm not wearing it anyway.”

 

And so, I was like, thanks for having some insight into yourself. But you know, the moms are going to see you freezing your butt off in the rain and they'll be like, why didn't his mom give him a coat? They're not asking why his dad didn't.

 

So, we're held to different standards around different areas. And so, we hold ourselves to these different sets of expectations around home and family life, how the kids are cared for, how the home's maintained. It's usually where women tend to focus, whereas men are like, I got to provide, you know, all these things.

 

And so that I say the game is rigged. That sets us up to really focus on different areas of our relationship. The second thing that I think happens is that because women are this way and there's also physiological component, but I want to talk about that piece, but because women are socialized this way, we tend to do things in our relationships way back when, even in dating, out of love and out of care for our partners.

 

And the first time we do it, usually our partner is really grateful. “You're the best. What would I do without you? You're awesome.” And it feels good to give, which is wonderful. It's a beautiful thing.

 

The second time we do it, they're like, “Gee, thanks.” The third time they're not even recognizing it. It's invisible.

 

We have taken it on, and it has become removed from our partner's awareness. And now we own it. We do this, especially before kids, over and over and over again in our relationships.

 

We take something on. There's no discussion. There's no negotiation.

 

And so, our plates pile up pretty full. I often refer to women as the bounty quicker picker uppers. We're super absorbent.

 

So, we get really saturated by soaking all these things up. And then kids enter the picture. And overnight, the amount of responsibilities grow exponentially.

 

And then we reach a point where we're like, we can't do all this. How come you don't see all these things that need done when we've been doing it all these years? And it's not placing blame.

 

It's just pointing out a pattern that's pretty benign, pretty typical that we have to learn how to walk back in our relationships.

 

Laura Dugger: (12:19 - 13:05) It's so good. And as we're learning how to walk back in our relationships and navigate this, I love how you define kind of a vision for us on page five, where you talk about how you help couples to experience, I'll quote you, “greater feelings of love, attraction, trust, commitment, reliability, and usually a way more exhilarating sex life. All from simply handling this mental load in a way that works for both of them.”

 

So, Dr. Morgan, can you give some examples and share how we can do this in marriage, kind of moving to some of the solutions once we've identified this problem?

 

Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (13:07 - 15:52) Yeah, I mean, there's a lot to unpack around the solutions. So, I'll give a big picture one and then I'm happy to give like a really practical one. But one of the biggest is that couples have to learn how to talk about this area of their relationship without it spiraling into any sort of argument.

 

And the reason is, is because the mental is not going anywhere. You know, we keep trying to like solve it. This is one small example of how we handle everything in society.

 

It seems like we're trying to find that permanent fix. But the reality is, is that life changes every single day. New demands are thrown on our plates; curve balls come our way.

 

And so, it changes the demand and the intensity of the mental load. And so, if we're in a relationship, we have to be able to regularly touch base about these things and negotiate who's handling what. We have to be able to do that in a way that feels like we're in it together.

 

And so, one of the perspectives that I have that's maybe a little bit different than what's out there currently on this topic is that we have to approach the mental load as the shared enemy in our relationship. So, you externalize that. So, if you're going to talk to your partner, instead of saying something along the lines of like, you really need to step it up.

 

You're not doing enough. You don't, don't you see what needs done? I really need you to help more.

 

I'm, I'm drowning over here. Like, what's, what are you doing? I'm doing all these things.

 

It is a much more productive conversation. If we come to the table and we say, listen, as you notice, I have kind of an intensity about me. I'm stressed out a lot.

 

I'm overwhelmed. I don't like to live this way. I'm sure I'm not as much fun to be around.

 

And part of what's going on with me is something that has a name and it's called the mental load. And it is just relentless for modern families today. The amount of pressure to be productive, the amount of responsibilities on our plates, it is never ending.

 

And I know you feel this too, but the way that we're handling it right now in our relationship is it's not really working for me. I'm feeling so bogged down that I don't feel like I can show up as my best self in our relationship and in our family. And I want to talk about how we as a team can navigate this aspect of our lives differently.

 

Like, are you willing to have that conversation? And I think that approach can help to diffuse. I mean, it might not be as satisfying if you're in a place of being really angry about this.

 

And a lot of people are. And it's totally understandable. But that will often diffuse a lot of the defensiveness that could potentially arise in this conversation and help the conversation get to a better place.

 

Laura Dugger: (15:53 - 16:20) Oh, that's good. And can you share a story, even a personal one that I've heard you mention before, related to one time when you were anticipating a date night only to get this truth bomb dropped on you? I'm asking this in part because elaborating from that quote, it ties into that correlation between mental load and exhilarating sex life for males.

 

Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (16:20 - 20:25) Yes. Now, I'm like, did I talk about this in the book? I can't remember.

 

I've talked about this before, though. Yeah. So, this is funny.

 

I shared this actually at a conference and my dad spoke at the conference. He was in the audience and had to listen to this story. And he's like, wow, you're comfortable sharing.

 

Like, I guess I am. OK, so my husband and I, this was several years ago, but we're sort of in that season where it was really hard to get out for a date night. And he something I'd wanted for a long time was him to initiate one.

 

So, he initiated the date night. I was really excited. We go to this nice restaurant.

 

He sits me down and he says something along the lines of, you know, I have to talk to you about something. And my husband's a man of few words. So, and I like to obviously, like, talk about a lot of things and talk a lot and unpack stuff and analyze it.

 

And so, when he said that, I immediately was excited. I was like, ooh, you know what he got for me? Let's go.

 

Like, let's have this conversation. And it was not what I expected. But what he said to me was, I'm not that happy with our sex life.

 

And, you know, in our relationship and I think about, you know, all of the things that I've learned and I've studied. And I know how important sex is to marriage and to my husband specifically. And I have a lower desire than he does.

 

And so, I keep track. I keep track of how often we have sex because I want to make sure that we're like hitting the target. And so, I remember like I was like really working hard overtime to sort of squash my defensiveness in this moment.

 

And I said, you know, I, I got to tell you, I feel like we're kind of having a lot of sex. And, you know, I've grown women talk. I know how much we're having.

 

And he's like, you know, it's not that it isn't good. And it's not that it's not enough. It's that it just doesn't always seem like you want me.

 

And so it was, it was like, it's kind of make light of it. But I'm like, it's an enthusiasm issue. Like he wanted more enthusiasm from me, and which is understandable.

 

And so, this, you know, conversation didn't end over dinner, kind of carried on through the rest of the night. It was not; it was not my favorite date night. You know, it wasn't the most enjoyable.

 

And we kind of unpacked it and we sort of; it was one of those conversations that we had to come back to a couple times. And I had to self-reflect on, you know, what is going on with my enthusiasm? Because I enjoy having sex with my husband, but there's truth to what he's saying.

 

And I really was honest with myself. Yeah, I'm like checking a box. You know, I'm keeping track.

 

And part of the conversation that was had was, and it's not meant to be tip for tap, but it was more like this is an insight I'm having, which is that I am not feeling as if you are showing much enthusiasm in our relationship around pursuing me. And in our home and family life around pursuing initiative taking, expressing appreciation. I'm not feeling good about our relationship outside the bedroom.

 

And so, our relationship inside the bedroom is not something that's exciting me. And we both had to step into that work. And he did in a major way.

 

And so, did I. And, you know, our sex life is not separate from our relationship as a whole. And I think it's really important that people understand that because a relationship that's suffering inside the bedroom will pour out outside the bedroom like it was for my husband and vice versa.

 

So, yeah.

 

Laura Dugger: (20:25 - 23:32) Thank you so much for being open about that. I'm first of all just wondering how many people think, wow, she just articulated something true in our marriage or for husbands to unlock that connection between the emotional or relational part of the marriage and intimate part.

 

Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.

 

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I love even how you describe that was maybe a little bit cumbersome at first to have to both of you do your work.

 

It paid off in the end. So, can you just kind of vision cast for us what it would look like if we put some healthy systems into place to habitually converse about mental load in marriage?

 

Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (23:33 - 26:14) Yeah, so one of the biggest takeaways of my book in terms of a new system is to have a regular check-in around the mental load. And the benefits to doing this just are like expansive. But one of the main things is that because the mental load is always changing, it's helpful to have a regular check-in so you can just kind of turn the dials, make the adjustments.

 

You know, this is a busy week for me. This is where I need a bit of support. How are you doing?

 

And check in and make those changes as necessary. It's also helpful, like some of the peripheral benefits, because sometimes people need convincing, even though this is not new advice to have a marriage check-in. It's been around a long time, but people still resist doing this.

 

So, some of the side benefits. One is that a lot of times women are the ones who are managing the relationship. We're the ones who are like, hey, I think we need a date night.

 

I think we need to talk about this. I want it. We never finish that argument.

 

You know, we're the ones kind of running the show around that stuff. And that becomes part of our mental load and also can start to feel as if we don't have a partner who cares as much about the relationship as we do. And so, when you have a scheduled time to talk about this stuff, it shares part of that responsibility.

 

So right away, you're sharing some of the emotional labor of the home and family life. The other thing is that women often have a lot of anxiety around the things that we're carrying in our minds that we need to talk to our partners. But we're not sure when is the good time.

 

So, a lot of times what happens is that we'll just kind of like eke it out through the week. Like, oh, by the way, like you got to pick Roy up from baseball here and Effie needs this. And I've been wondering about this.

 

And it becomes this sort of barrage of things are going on in our head that we need to talk about with our partner. But it's just like spread out. It's not consolidated.

 

So, a lot of times the women carry the anxiety around when this is going to happen and if our partners really got a hold of it. And our partners a lot of times find it like nagging. And then we might feel like a nag, and it doesn't really feel good to either person.

 

And so, when you can anticipate having an opportunity to address all of those things, it can help you move through your week with a lesser amount of anxiety. And also, can reduce that sort of dynamic that starts to feel either like nagging or almost like the mother-child dynamic, which also does nothing for your sex life. So, there's lots more benefits.

 

But those are a couple that are really important.

 

Laura Dugger: (26:15 - 26:27) It's so good. And what can that conversation look like? And maybe do you have any stories of couples who have done this with how they set that up or what that actually looks like in their week?

 

Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (26:27 - 28:23) Yeah. So, in my book, I give an agenda so you can literally just print it out. You can get a QR code to a PDF to print it out and you can follow along.

 

You can come up with your own, but it needs a couple of components you want to keep consistent that you want to keep the meeting relatively short. If it goes too long, it gets sometimes into, you know, you didn't do this and now you're like into a negative dynamic and you want it to really stay contained to being a bit more logistical. And then we'll talk about the other components.

 

You also want it to go well so that you'll do it again. And it becomes a natural pattern in the relationships. You want to keep it short.

 

You want to really, you know, you can keep it very simple. How did we do last week? Where did you need me?

 

And when I wasn't there, like, was there a time you needed me to do something different? So, you can both sort of anticipate that we're going to get a little bit of corrective feedback and we can start to normalize that. Looking toward the next week, what are some things I need to be aware of?

 

What are some areas where you might need some more support? So, you can basically keep it as simple as that. You always end the meeting with an expression of affection and appreciation and then schedule your next meeting.

 

That's like the bare bones sort of touch base. And I find that as you know, when I've spoken with couples who do this, I mean, number one, they're all I mean, if couples are doing it, bottom line, it's helpful. Like, oh, my gosh, we actually addressed all of these things that normally we'd just be holding on to getting frustrated about.

 

We handled the week ahead much better. So, it's always a positive experience. And but the more you do it, the more automatic it will become and the more natural it will become over time, unless you'll need an agenda or any sort of, you know, template for those meetings.

 

Laura Dugger: (28:24 - 29:11) Yes, I echo it. Such a game changer. Just we just call it planning the week.

 

But sitting down and looking at the next week, I just wonder how you would function in a family without knowing that because it takes out the questionable expectations or the silent things that we're holding on to and just makes that covert overt, which is healthier in marriage. But then I guess it's sometimes easier to see something through its opposite. So, walk us through what it would look like if couples refuse to do this and choose to neglect these conversations and don't check in with each other as it relates to the mental load and shared partnership tasks.

 

Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (29:13 - 32:06) Yeah, I think a lot of couples are here and there's different degrees of severity that it can affect your relationship. And some people are better at just kind of like letting things go and functioning with a little bit of baseline frustration or rationalizing it and others are not. So, there's a lot of variables here.

 

But what often happens is usually it's the woman who feels the overwhelm and the stress and she'll come to her partner and try to talk about that. And it usually in the worst-case scenarios doesn't go well or even in great. You know, the first time I talked about it with my husband, it didn't go well.

 

So, it happens. And so, partners start to at that point. So, let's say she gets louder.

 

So, I've tried to talk about it. He's not getting it. I'm going to get louder.

 

I'm going to get a little angry. So, she's going to start kind of making side comments. Potentially, you know, don't you see that?

 

I guess I'm going to handle this again. Guess it's all on me. Totally typical, actually, in relationships for these things to come out.

 

He starts to perceive her as critical as nagging him as tense. Oh, you're so stressed out. Why are you making such a big deal over these little things?

 

You need to lower your expectations. You make things harder than you need to. That sort of stuff starts to come out.

 

So, both of them begin to develop some almost like storylines about each other. So, the story she tells herself about him is he's selfish, unhelpful, doesn't care about her. Everything falls on her.

 

The storyline he starts to tell is it's never enough for her. She's critical. She won't get off my back.

 

She'll leave me alone. She doesn't appreciate all that I already do. And they start to sort of retreat to their own worlds.

 

And this is where the disconnection happens. No one's really, you know, taking the time to check their assumptions, to get in each other's perspectives, to think about what is it like to be you in this relationship? What's it like to be you in this relationship?

 

And work through it together. So, they start to retreat to their own worlds. The distance develops.

 

Eventually it probably affects what their sex life looks like. And some couples go on like this for years. And you just, you know, the interactions become shorter, more logistical, less relational.

 

You start to forget why you even married the person. You start to forget what you like about them. And it becomes a really just sad state of affairs for a relationship when these things are not addressed and worked through.

 

And it's not always, you know, easy to do. But it's definitely something worth the effort and the energy.

 

Laura Dugger: (32:08 - 33:07) I like that because it's not easy to do. It will require time and energy and intentionality. It's also not easy to be in that type of marriage.

 

I would argue it's even more difficult and draining. And just is not the abundant life that we're hoping to enjoy in Christ and in our relationships. So, we don't want that.

 

But I love your book gives plenty of practical tips for navigating this. And I thought it was really wise. One piece where you just talked about, we kind of get in a rut.

 

Maybe where we both have our assigned roles in marriage or tasks that we naturally take care of. But both of us forget there are seasons of extra. And when extra things come up, it's just helpful to reflect and evaluate who's picking up all of those extra invisible tasks.

 

So, do you have any wisdom to share for recognizing that or managing that tension?

 

Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (33:09 - 37:33) Yeah, I think. So back when I was explaining how it got heavy for women, why it primarily happens the way it does, that concept I explained of her doing the things out of just goodness of her heart and loving her partner and her family. I call that something called piling on of precedence.

 

And so, part of the problem when we do that is that a lot of times we take things on, like I said, with no discussion, no negotiation. And what that does is it keeps the thing that we do in the dark. It keeps it invisible.

 

So, as we move through family life with different seasons with our kids and our careers and all the things, new stuff comes up. Like we're in the season of youth sports. And so, youth sports are like, I mean, holy moly, hours sometimes to even just sign up for a sport.

 

It's wild, all that you got to navigate. And so, I think it's really important to be aware of what you are taking on with no discussion or conversation. So, I talk about in the book, I believe I talk about in the book, I do these experiments on my husband, and he doesn't know to this day, and I'm not shy about talking about it, but it's on him to listen to a podcast.

 

And then he can figure it out. But I started doing this one experiment in the attempt to try to make more of the invisible visible. And part of why this is important is because a lot of times one task with a mental load unpacks to contain multiple tasks.

 

This is why we get really overwhelmed even though our to-do list looks totally manageable. It's like, well, dinner's not just cooking dinner. It's all these other things involved.

 

So, I started doing this thing called narration and just to see what would happen. And it's not narration in the sense that it's like this petty laundry list of all that I do. But I would pick one task, and I would just narrate to my husband what I did.

 

And so, it sounds like this. I would say, oh, hey, babe, just so you know, I signed Roy up for Little League. He'd be like, oh, OK.

 

I'd be like, I filled out the forms. Start to list. I filled out the forms.

 

I found his birth certificate. That took me a while, but I found it and I uploaded it. I paid all the fees.

 

I downloaded two apps. You got to get those two. Here's what they're called.

 

But I just wanted you to know I handled it. So, a couple of things would always get accomplished. Number one, now he knows all that's involved in signing our son up for Little League.

 

He would never know. It would just be something that it's just done. He was not even thinking about it.

 

It's something I handle. It's off his plate. So now he knows all of the steps that are involved.

 

He has a greater awareness of what I'm doing. It saves me from later because sometimes we don't mind doing stuff like this. And then by the end of the week when we're at our limit and one more thing piles on and we're kind of annoyed, we might resent the thing that we didn't originally.

 

So, it's sort of saving me from that. And it gives him the opportunity to express appreciation, which every time I've done that, that's what ends up happening. Thank you so much for handling that.

 

I really appreciate you. You're so great at taking care of that stuff. And over time, I've just selected things and I've started doing that.

 

And over time, what's really interesting is that my husband has started doing it too. So, I never told him that I did this, but now he'll be like, hey, babe, just so you know, I submitted our taxes. I paid your LLC fee for you, and I did this and I did that.

 

And I get to then see all that he's doing and express appreciation. So, what it's done is it's made invisible things visible. And it has also, and this is really important, normalized expressing appreciation over the value each of us contribute in our home and family life.

 

And appreciation is one of the most desired things women want from their partners around the mental load. It's initiative taking and appreciation. And so, we have normalized this mutual exchange of sharing how we add value to our family and giving appreciation around it.

 

Laura Dugger: (37:34 - 39:25) That is so good. And as you were sharing, I was thinking too of times that my husband, Mark, I love it when he'll walk me through something he did at work or taxes actually came to mind too, where he said, this is how long it took me to do all these steps. And your first response is like, oh my gosh, thank you so much.

 

And just really just falling in love with them a little bit more and appreciating them. So, I love how that can be a positive cycle that goes both ways. And its intimacy because you're getting to see into each other's lives and that invisible brain space for both of them. Yes.

 

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You mention in your book that you recommend considering time and energy as each spouse's currency.

 

So, their currency rather than how much money they make. So, this is especially for maybe parents who have one stay-at-home mom or dad. So, consider time and energy as each spouse's currency rather than how much money we make.

 

So, there's this paragraph on page 34 that I hope everybody gets and reads just about the value of a stay-at-home parent. But is there anything you could share to elaborate on that topic?

 

Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (39:26 - 42:29) Yeah, so this part of the book was really important for me to include for a couple of reasons. One, I remember early on when my husband and I were trying to develop a shared language around the mental load and he would get prickly about certain things and where he always got stuck was around the money piece. Well, you know, typically, you know, he thinks a bit traditionally.

 

So, he'd be like, well, men are like, well, not always. That's actually not true. Look at the amount of female breadwinners.

 

It's like pretty high percentage at this point in our American society. So, I knew this was a common just point of contention in this conversation. I also interviewed men for my book.

 

I interviewed men and women. I surveyed women and that came up a lot. Don't forget that life costs money.

 

Don't forget the value that we add. And also, when I talked about, you know, this socialization for men, really around providing financial and physical safety is this really, you know, it's prevalent. A lot of men, even if they're not the breadwinner, will feel an increase in pressure and responsibility to provide financially after kids enter the picture.

 

So, it's a real thing. And so, in that sense, it was really important for me to include it. But the other is because I talk to mostly, you know, stay at home moms all the time.

 

And it's like, but he makes the money and I don't know what to say to that. And so, I really wanted to provide the permission to, you know, women or just parents who don't make the most money to ask for more participation from their partners in a way that feels good. So, the whole premise is that, you know, obviously we use money as our currency in our society, but that template doesn't work for home and family life.

 

And it doesn't take a lot of reasoning to get to that place. If you just I use the example in the book of if I worked one hour a week and made a million dollars, and my husband worked 60 hours a week and made 50,000. Does it make sense for me to say, well, I make more.

 

So, you do everything or you do. You know, I should feel entitled to do less because I make more, which is often what happens. And so, with the template doesn't really translate in the same way.

 

And so, I put forward that the currency in our home and family life should be time and energy. People have different capacities when it comes to their energy, people's time looks different. It changes often, you know, week to week.

 

And so, it can also be a really quick way to check in with one another. I'm imagining that time when one parent is like reentering family life. And that's often kind of a dicey time for a lot of families, especially with young kids.

 

And to be able to say, hey, how's your time? How's your energy? I'm at a 10 here.

 

I'm at a, you know, I'm at a two here. So, and how can you then jump in and sort of support one another based on how you're each doing in terms of time and energy?

 

Laura Dugger: (42:31 - 43:39) Yeah, because I think if we paint that picture, my background is marriage and family therapy. And I would say so many times, I don't want to be stereotypical, but this is what it was. The wife would either be working, or it would be a stay-at-home mom.

 

The husband was more of the provider. But consistently, they would say he comes home from work and just lays on the couch or on a Sunday. He just sits around and relaxes.

 

And yet maybe he's working 40, maybe he's even working 60 hours a week. But that still leaves over 100 hours in the week beyond work. And that would be the constant complaint.

 

You could see that root bitterness. So how would you encourage both of them? I would say, especially in this situation, how would you encourage the husbands?

 

That's really not fulfilling your responsibility. And one more thing, just thinking of that scripture in Corinthians. I believe it's in the love chapter, which would be 1 Corinthians 13.

 

And it talks about when I became a man, I put away childish things.

 

Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (43:39 - 43:40) Yeah.

 

Laura Dugger: (43:41 - 43:43) I threw a lot at you. How would you like to respond?

 

Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (43:45 - 46:00) I think it's almost like that type of behavior feels very, is it like leave it to beaver? Almost of like the guy comes home and sits and reads the paper type of thing. And we're just not really living in that world as much anymore.

 

And even if we are, there's plenty of studies that look at the amount of hours a stay-at-home mom works. And it's around an average of about 97 hours a week, which is two and a half full time jobs. And so, I mean, this is why I wanted to have this section of my book is because the person who works outside the home often feels entitled to do less inside the home.

 

And so, I think part of it is undoing this belief system that you have checked all the boxes because you went to work. And then everything else is sort of like sugar, like, you know, like gravy on top. And that's actually not true.

 

But I think one of the questions men really need to wrestle with is what kind of husband and father do you want to be? You know, do you want, you know, I would be willing to bet that in this type of relationship situation, the woman is ragged. And definitely starting to develop roots of bitterness and frustration and hurts.

 

And so how do you want her to feel in the relationship? How do you want to really step in and lead your family? I think these are, you know, and these are questions that if you're sitting down with your partner, I think are totally acceptable to ask.

 

How do you want me to feel in our relationship? What do you want when I see you on the couch at the end of the day? And I've been working too all day, whether it's with the kids, whether it's outside the home.

 

And I see you on the couch and you're watching a game. What conclusion do you want me to draw about how you feel about my value and my contribution to this family and what we're doing? And I'm not saying this in a way of snarkiness, saying it genuine.

 

It's genuine conversation. I think that these partners have to take a moment and reflect on their behavior and how they're showing up in their family life.

 

Laura Dugger: (46:02 - 46:31) I like that even how you model the tone, that you're approaching it truly with a sense of curiosity with the goal being a better, healthier relationship. And it makes me think, OK, again, solutions, which I think ties in. You had briefly mentioned what women are wanting related to the mental load.

 

I'd love to cover that a little bit more in depth and also what men are wanting and wish that women knew as it relates to the mental load.

 

Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (46:32 - 51:06) Yeah, so there's sort of two parts of this for

women. So, I in the chapter, there's four areas in the meat of the book that I talk about that couples need to learn to share. So, there's a chapter on sharing perspective.

 

And in those chapters, I talk about what do women want in their relationship and what do men want in their relationship with women, though? I also surveyed women and asked them specifically, what do you want from your partners around the mental load? And what they wanted was, number one, more initiative taking and number two, more appreciation, which appreciation is an easy one to give.

 

It's really hard for a lot of people to give, but it costs you almost nothing. It almost costs you no time. So, it's a really easy one.

 

And it was it was actually like a pretty close percentage. And so, I'll give just a little bit of information around initiative taking, because that's vague. I find that when we're asking for change from partners, it's helpful to be as specific as possible, because a lot of times we're sort of vague with our requests and then nothing changes.

 

So, initiative taking requires knowing plus action. So, you can't step into initiative or leadership or like however you want to label this. If you don't know people's preferences, if you don't know where things are kept in the house, if you don't know what's on the schedule.

 

And so, if there are any husbands listening, I would encourage you to increase your knowing around your home and family life. And part of that might be like increasing your awareness. You might get home from work and maybe you need a minute.

 

But then are you tuning out the rest of the night, just kind of numbly going through the motions or are you like paying attention and absorbing information? And so, I spoke to couples before and when I speak to the men, I always challenge them to employ something called the Buffett formula, which comes from Warren Buffett around the accumulation of information and knowledge. And he basically says, go to bed every night knowing more than when you woke up that morning.

So, as a husband and a father, get to know three new things a day. Get to know one new thing about your significant other, one new thing about each of your kids if you have them, and one new thing about how your home and family life functions. That will accumulate quickly and will help you step into initiative taking with competence and competence, which is a lot of times the reasons they'll give for not stepping into it.

I don't know how to do it. So, gather that information. You said, what do men want in their relationships?

So then in the chapters on perspective, I use the acronym PAR, and I use the same acronym for both men and women, but it stands for different things. And so, I talk about what are the three things men want most in their relationships. And the first is peace.

And I think we should just talk about this more in general when we talk about relationships, because I think a lot of men will really do some hurtful things in the pursuit of peace. And it always backfires, you know, like a defensive. I don't want to have an argument.

It's too emotional. I want to deal with this right now. So, you know, they might shove it away.

But a lot of men really are after they just want peace. They want you to be happy, easy breezy. But a lot of times in order to get to a peaceful place, you might have to go through a little bit of difficult conversations to get there.

The second thing is affection. And that is, you know, words, how we speak to each other all the way through our sexual relationship. Not for every man, but for a lot of men, sex is how they feel loved and desired in their relationship.

And so, it plays a very important role. And then the last is respect. And everybody wants to be respected.

This is not necessarily just a man thing, but men in particular have a high need for respect. And so, when I was talking about how relationships kind of like can start to degrade when the mental load isn't handled well, part of what happens is that she will start to become more disrespectful because she doesn't respect him. And he will feel disrespected because he is being disrespected.

But there's a whole history as to why you got to this place. And so, yeah, it's very important to understand these things when we're entering into these conversations that can sometimes be a little bit tricky.

Laura Dugger: (51:08 - 51:24) You've given us so many jumping off points to proactively enhance our marriages and spoken to both sides, the men, the women. Is there anything else you want to make sure we don't miss? Is our time starting to near a close?

Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (51:25 - 53:28) Oh, my goodness. I feel like we covered quite a bit. I mean, I would just say something that was really on my heart when I wrote my book, A Better Share, is that in the world of social media, which is a big part of our lives, unfortunately, and fortunately in some ways.

But, you know, in the land of this content area on social media, it can be a pretty hostile ground, especially for men. So, it's a charged topic. It's wild.

So yesterday I shared a post based on my interviews with men where I just shared some of their perspectives. And if you read the comments section, it's wild how people are angry about a perspective like it's not allowed. And something that was on my heart was I want to write a book that welcomes men to the table, because at the end of the day, at the end of the day, if we're being truly honest, we want men to change a bit.

We want them to, like, step into this conversation in this work, to be more emotionally attuned, to express appreciation for the value we add to our family, to participate more as a leader in our home. So, we're wanting all these changes from them. But then we're like most people are coming at it from this very angry perspective.

And so, a really important part of my of my writing and putting the book together was I want to write a book men enjoy reading where they feel seen. They also feel challenged and they feel like they are equipped with these aha moments where they're like, oh, that's what's going on. And the feedback, if you read reviews on Amazon, it's like been really powerful to look at the response from men and how it's been received.

And so that's probably one of my something I'm most proud of with this with this work.

Laura Dugger: (53:29 - 53:52) Yes, I would say well done with that. And this is a great episode to share with our husband. That's the wife who is initially listening and then maybe to come back together and see how can I serve you better?

How can I love you better for both ways? But Dr. Morgan, you've also written another book. Do you want to share a little bit about that and where we can go to learn more from you after this chat?

 

Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (53:53 - 55:39) Sure. So, my first book was called Love Your Kids Without Losing Yourself. And it's a book I wrote for moms.

 

And at the end of the day, it's really a book about our relationship with ourselves. And I just use examples in every chapter. I talk about how I apply the concept to our relationship with our kids.

 

And then I apply it back to your relationship with yourself. But, you know, women, we're so good at backburnering ourselves and getting to a place, though, of kind of living on the backburner. And we do it, you know, in this deep, wonderful place.

 

I think comes from a wonderful place to really serve our family and serve our kids. And if there's ever a cause to backburner yourself for, it is our kids. But at the same time, we do this self-sacrifice for the people we love the most.

 

And then we end up becoming so burnt out, so overwhelmed, that we end up resenting the people we love the most. And so, it ends up backfiring. And so, this is a book about not putting your oxygen mask on first.

 

That always bugs me. But it's about how us as moms can learn to take our turn, can learn to manage our relationship with ourself in a way that's actually doable in the little blips of time that we get to ourselves. So that we don't wake up after 18 years of raising kids or however, probably is like 22 now or something, but of all these years.

 

And we're like, I don't even know who I am anymore. You know, or those moms that their kids leave and start a family of their own. And then we're sort of like resentful that they abandoned us because we gave them everything.

 

And so, it's really about how do you stay connected to yourself in this busyness of life and raising kids.

 

Laura Dugger: (55:40 - 55:48) And we'll definitely add a link to that in the show notes for today's episode. Are there any other links or places that you would like to direct us to?

 

Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (55:48 - 56:50) Yeah, I mean, my Instagram is a place you can find me. It's just Dr. Morgan Cutlip. And also, I've been working on releasing and these two are out now.

 

I'll just mention one of them. I like to do audio courses. I feel like it's much easier to just listen and not sit down and watch a video.

 

But I just released a course called The Brief. And it's the No BS Guide to the Mental Load for Men. And it's a course for men.

 

And it's 90 minutes and it's broken up into 11 episodes. And it explains the mental load. It explains what it is, what women want, why it's important.

 

And it really breaks everything down in a way that doesn't induce shame or defensiveness. And a major complaint of women is not only do I carry the mental load, but now I carry the responsibility of educating my partner around it. And so, I figured if there's a way for me to take that burden in any way, obviously the partner has to be willing to listen.

 

Then I feel like I'm helping. So that's also available. All my stuff is very affordable.

 

So, yeah, it's called The Brief.

 

Laura Dugger: (56:50 - 57:07) The Brief, wonderful. Thank you for sharing that. And you may already be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge.

 

And so, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (57:09 - 57:45) These are the, I can talk about just about anything. But this question, that's like the one thing I'm terrible at. Collect the good.

 

I think in all of our relationships, in all of our relatively safe relationships, the more we collect the good rather than accumulate complaints and the bad, the better our relationships will be, the more we can appreciate the blessings that people add to our lives and how they enrich our lives. So, if you're in a committed relationship, see how you can collect up and gather up all the good.

 

Laura Dugger: (57:46 - 58:07) Love that, Dr. Morgan. And throughout this hour, I've just enjoyed how vulnerable and disciplined and extremely talented you are. But I especially notice and appreciate your desire to help.

So, thank you for wrapping all of that up into one chat. And thank you for being my guest.

 

Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (58:08 - 58:09) Thank you for having me.

 

Laura Dugger: (58:10 - 1:01:52) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Emotionally Healthy Familial Relationships: Special Patreon Release with Cherilyn Orr

Special Patreon Release: Emotionally Healthy Familial Relationships with Cherilyn Orr

 

"bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord." Ephesians 6:4b (KJV)

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Cherilyn Orr is passionate about helping parents, teachers, and guardians raise emotionally healthy and resilient children. She has worked with families and educators in North America, Europe, and Africa to help them build safe schools, homes, and communities where children can flourish. The Stoplight Approach that she developed was born out of her experiences as an educator, a foster mom, and a mom to seven through birth and adoption, and it combines biblical truths with the latest brain science. Connect with her on her Website, Facebook, Instagram, or YouTube.

 

Topics and Questions We Cover:

1. What are a few helpful tips for us to understand brain science 101?

2. How can we repair the relationship when we don't disciple and discipline from our Green zone?

3. Within the stoplight approach, can you provide some examples of how we can calm a red-rooted misbehavior?

 

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:09)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 2:07)

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

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Cherilyn Orr is my guest today. She is kind and humble and a woman who's passionate about helping parents, teachers, and guardians raise emotionally healthy and resilient children. She's going to share how she combines biblical truths with the latest brain science to build healthy relationships in the family.

Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Cherilyn.

 

Cherilyn Orr: (2:07 - 2:08)

Thank you. I'm really happy to join you today.

 

Laura Dugger: (2:08 - 2:10)

And will you start by just giving us a snapshot of your life right now?

 

Cherilyn Orr: (2:08 - 3:11)

Yes, I am actually talking to you from Athens, Greece. That is where our family resides right now. And we've been here for the last few years. And before that, we lived in Uganda and Africa.

 

I have seven children and my oldest is now a mom herself. And she just gave birth a couple months ago to a preemie little baby. And I am so excited because now I have entered the world of grandparenthood.

 

But I'm also in the throes of life with a 12-year-old, a 14-year-old, and a 17-year-old. And I have a university student living at home. My next son is 21, and he's also living at home, going to university. So those are my four at home.

 

I have one in Canada, working there. And I have two that are married. One that lives in Africa with his wife, and they're working there. And another one with my grandbaby that's living here in Greece, working with the church here.

 

Laura Dugger: (3:12 - 3:19)

That is quite a full family and a global family. What has taken you to the different parts of the world?

 

Cherilyn Orr: (3:20 - 3:44)

Well, we are a missional family. But we believe that everybody's called to be a missional and to serve God. And God happens to have taken us to different places.

 

I've been working with The Stoplight Approach now for a few years now. My husband does leadership training as well. So that's kind of what's taken us around the world. Now that we're in Greece, I'm also involved with refugees as well here.

 

Laura Dugger: (3:45 - 4:06)

Well, we are fortunate to live in a time with access to scientific knowledge about the brain. And it all points back to our brilliant Creator, God. But you make this brain science so simple to comprehend. So, can you just share a few helpful tips for us so that we can understand kind of brain science 101?

 

Cherilyn Orr: (4:08 - 6:40)

Yes, I think for me, it's been a journey. But it came when after we adopted a child and she was having an all-out meltdown. And it would have taken me an hour or so to regroup her.

 

And it was just amazing. I was with a friend and she is a behavioral consultant. And she said, “Let me.” And this was after we had had her for at least a couple of years at this point. And she just said, “Let me.”

 

And she got down on the ground where my child was screaming hysterically. And she was able to get her back sitting on her seat, doing what she was supposed to in less than, I don't know, 10 minutes.

 

And I was shocked because here I am an educator. I have a master's degree. I'm a special needs teacher. I have been working for years with children in different settings around the world. And here I was looking at her doing something that I just didn't know how to do.

 

It was a huge paradigm shift for me when she said afterwards, I said, “What did you do?”

 

And she said, “It's by understanding the brain. The brain is like three parts. It's like a stoplight.”

 

So, she said, if you can think of it that way, as there's that bottom part of your brain, which is that fight, flight, freeze. When you are just only using 50% of your capacity and you just can't hear anybody's perspective.

 

And then there's that middle part of your brain, which is the limbic system. And she said, you know, that's when you're using 75% or so of your brain capacity. And that's when you're stressed, you're worried, you're anxious, and you're just not at your best.

 

And then there's your top part of your brain, which is your neocortex, which you are just ready to learn. And you can problem solve and you can think and you are the best version of yourself at that moment.

 

And she talked to me a little bit about that. And she's just said, this is what's happening in your brain. For me, that was a wow, you know, because it's like understanding the brain is so opposite than anything that I had ever done. And as an educator, I've been trained to control children. I've taken courses on behavior management. And this was just like changing the equation. When you understand the brain, then it changes how you can relate to the child in your care.

 

Laura Dugger: (6:41 - 7:05)

And also, I will just sprinkle in a few little things that I found fascinating in your book. One of your conclusions was that relationships are the biggest factor in brain development and for it to develop in a healthy way. So, is that what you found true throughout the years of our life, that relationships are vital?

 

Cherilyn Orr: (7:05 - 8:02)

It's for everybody. And it needs to start with that relationship. And that relationship has what I would say three pillars, which is safety, which is your red brain. In order to come out of that fight, flight or freeze, you have to feel safe.

 

And in order to come out of yellow brain, which is your limbic system, you need to feel connected and you need to feel respected. And respect means to be seen, heard and valued. And when you're in that yellow brain state, you don't feel connected. You feel disconnected.

 

So, in order to get people to green brain, you need to make them feel seen, heard and valued. So, if we want healthy relationships and we want green home, then we need to be able to help our children get to that green brain state. But it starts by making them feel safe and making them feel connected. So, relationship is foundational.

 

Laura Dugger: (8:02 - 8:24)

And you've combined your knowledge of the Bible and all of this brain science to write a book entitled Signals: How Brain Science and the Bible Help Parents Raise Resilient Children. So, will you elaborate now on that Stoplight Approach that you teach and write about?

 

Cherilyn Orr: (8:27 - 11:10)

Well, yes, I am so excited because we just looked at, you know, those three elements, safety, respect and being connected, and then we could teach it. And when we look at the Bible and we say, “How does God view me and how does He work with me?”

 

I go back to the fact is when God sees me in my mess ups and He sees my anger or my gossip or my addictions or whatever I'm struggling with. He looks at me and He says, “Come to me. I am your safety. I am your refuge.”

 

He wants us to bring Him our messes. He says, “Come to me just as you are, not as you want to be, not as you should be and not as you could be.” And in that context, He says, “I delight in you. I know you. I know every hair on your head. I know you. I know your name and I love you. You are in the palm of my hand and I delight in you.”

 

And Zephaniah talks about and He sings over us, not because we've done something, not because we're worthy, because He knows that unless we feel safe and unless we are in that connection and can relationship with them, then He cannot help us to train us and to walk with us and guide us through the process of growing and becoming that healthy person that He desires for us to be.

 

So, I was so excited when I looked at who God is and how it matches with what brain science is teaching us about red, yellow, green and how we can't teach anybody. It takes 12 to 15 times to teach a child a new skill when they are in green. That same child, that same skill when he's there in red will take 350 to 400 times because that is not the part of the brain where you can do problem solving or critical thinking or even to have empathy for anybody else. That part of the brain can only do rote learning. So, it will take you so long to teach a child when they're in that part of the brain.

 

And I love it because that obedience is an outflowing of a relationship with us, with God. And when we look at our child, that's what we want is we don't want them to obey us because they fear us, but we want them to obey us because they are connected to us. Just like God wants us to obey Him in that relationship, not because it's the rule and that's what we need to do.

 

So, I'm so excited to see how that brain science is catching up to who God is.

 

Laura Dugger: (11:11 - 12:07)

Oh, my goodness. That is amazing to also just think of the Lord as obviously our parent and we want to model after Him. Some of this is reminding me there was a previous episode with Dr. Josh and Christy Straub where they were looking at research findings about parenting. And one of them was that it was so important for us to be self-regulated when we're responding to our children. And there's a connection.

 

So, in your book, I'm just going to read this one quote from page 56. You wrote, “One of the most shocking things I realized as I learned about brain science was that it is impossible to make a child feel loved when the parent is in yellow or red. They feel our stress. They feel our disapproval.” And so, would you like to elaborate on that as well?

 

Cherilyn Orr: (12:09 - 13:41)

Well, we have this thing that we talk a lot about in The Stoplight Approach. We talk about the stoplight starts with me. You cannot give what you don't have.

 

So many parents will say, “I love my child,” but the child does not feel loved. And when I was doing seminars and training throughout North America, you know, often people say, “We are a yellow society.” And that broke my heart.

 

We are a yellow society. We're running our kids at five in the morning to this program, to hockey or this or programs late at night. And we're just running.

 

And I feel like if we are yellow and we are stressed, then there is automatically a disconnect. There's almost like a gate that says, do not enter. You can't go through it unless you are in green.

 

You're in red, then your whole house turns to red. Mama's in red, everybody's in red. Or if you're in yellow, you'll start to see the children in your care are in yellow.

 

And I find that in my house. When I start to see my house going to that yellow space, I start to have to do like, what color am I in? If I'm in yellow, then they're going to be in yellow. And you start to see them fighting amongst themselves or bickering or just not cooperating. And there's that tension that comes because they're picking up my yellowness and my stress.

 

Laura Dugger: (13:42 - 14:04)

And so, let's go a little bit further with that scenario. If parents are in a very stressful season and there are quite a few to-do's that have to get done on top of the daily things. If that parent identifies they are in the yellow, maybe in the red, how can they get back to green even in the midst of a crazy time of life?

 

Cherilyn Orr: (14:06 - 16:26)

Well, you know, you don't have to be perfect. You don't have to be a perfect parent. But what science is showing us and it's what God wants from us is that sense of repair. We need to look at how do we repair because that's what our child needs because life is not perfect and we are not perfect. And I am certainly far from being a perfect parent. But how do I repair the damage and how do I connect?

 

So, we call it fix it, treasure it and change it. So, fix it is: Yes, I am sorry. Mommy yelled at you. I am so sorry I did that. I was in yellow and I was really stressed. Would you forgive me? I love you and you did not deserve me to yell at you. I care about you and I did not handle that appropriately.

 

And I want you to help me. This is what I've said to my children. I want you to help me when I'm going to red or I'm going to yellow. Just remind me and say, “Mom, you're going to yellow.” And then that can help me to make some changes right then and create that gap so that I'm not reacting. Or maybe I could take a walk or maybe I could get myself back to green.

 

When I react in that yellow or red brain state, it's not safe for you. It's not safe for others. So, let's work together on this.

 

And then we can talk about maybe what was happening in our house at that time as well. And maybe how they can help things to go smoother in our house. So that they could take some responsibility in helping because Mommy didn't feel seen, heard and valued. You know, I had asked you five times to do that. So how do we work together to make this house run smoother?

 

So being red and yellow are not bad things. It's not like you are horrible because you went to red and yellow. It's warning. It's like an alarm going off to say, be careful, be careful.

 

It's an opportunity to reflect and say, what's not working here? What's the deeper issue here? Yes, maybe I was overtired and maybe I did this. But what else is going on? And I may need to look back on things that maybe are triggering me that are deeper. And maybe things that relate back to my own childhood or how I was raised.

 

Laura Dugger: (16:26 - 16:52)

That makes a lot of sense, that reflection. Because I studied psychology and marriage and family therapy. And we were always taught, name it to tame it. And sometimes that really does help when we can pinpoint and identify and name. What is that trigger? It helps to tame it. And I think the biblical concept is when you share it with somebody else, when you bring it into the light, it does lose a lot of its power.

 

Cherilyn Orr: (16:53 - 17:46)

Definitely. Because if I can say I'm in red, it helps me know what I need to do to get myself back to green. So, if I can start to recognize when my body is starting to get tense, when I'm starting to get stressed, I can say, oh, this is my warning. I need to do this. I need to have a shower. I need to go for a walk. I need to regroup myself so that I'm not reacting to my children in my red brain state. I can get myself back to green first. So, I can create that gap.

 

So, naming it, that's what I think the success of Stoplight is. It's the common language that says how do we help each other when we are moving to yellow and we are moving to red so that everybody in the family knows that red is not bad, but how do we help that person in their red to get back to green?

 

Laura Dugger: (17:48 - 17:52)

What is the Stoplight Approach to discipline and boundaries?

 

Cherilyn Orr: (17:54 - 22:32)

Well, sometimes people think, oh, is The Stoplight Approach permissive? You know, we just let kids do what they want and let them be in green. If anybody has multiple children, you know that if one child is being self-centered and they're in their own world, it's going to create chaos for the rest of the family.

 

And so, Stoplight is not about permissiveness. And I think we need to be looking at the word discipline comes from the word disciple, which means to train. If you can kind of get that word discipline, because so often we've mixed that word discipline with punishment. So, it's all about punishing a child, whereas actually discipline is not about punishing. It's about training a child.

 

And everybody, every child needs boundaries. Boundaries help to keep us safe. They help to keep our family safe. It helps to keep that relationships in a healthy way.

 

So, we often use that word to look at how do we as parents, we've always got boundaries. Don't run in the road. We want to keep you safe. Don't touch the hot stove because you'll burn yourself. So, we look for ways to keep our child safe, and we look for ways to help them be safe in relationships. Yes, you want that ball, but you don't hit the other child to get the ball. So, what could we do differently?

 

Proverbs 13:24 is a common phrase that I grew up hearing. It was kind of like the parenting theology of my generation. “Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but who loves him diligently disciplines him.”

 

So that was a verse that I heard a lot in my life. But then as I was studying and looking at brain science and really studying about who is God. And I had to look at what is my image of God? Is He this harsh judge up there that maybe subconsciously I believed? Or is He that loving father like the prodigal son that's waiting for his son? Not to punish him, but to love him and to connect with him. And it says in the New Testament, Jesus says, if you've seen him, you've seen the Father. So, He's a good, good father.

 

So, then I started to dissect this. What is the rod used for? And it talks about the rod being a comfort and a rod being a sense of protection. And we often hear it used in relationships to sheep. You know, if we're going to keep sheep safe, then we need the rod. That shepherd used a rod to protect his sheep from wild animals. So, as we look at that word rod, it's a protection tool.

 

So, we take apart that and then hates his son. I think, wow, a parent that does not protect their child or teaches their child to be aware of the dangers in this world. So, as a young child, you're protecting them and teaching them to make safe choices. And then as they get older, you still have to continually, continually teach them that. And so, when I look at that word rod and hates his son, that would be a neglectful. In my words, a parent who is neglectful to teach.

 

The second verse talks about diligently. And that reminds me in Deuteronomy, when we're told to teach our children all through the day, when we're walking, when we're sitting, when we're at mealtimes. We should be using our days to continually teach our children and to discipline them, which would be to train them in the way that they should go.

 

And I look at God as our creator of our brain. And He loves us so very, very much. And He wants the very best for us. And we know that children and human beings do better when they feel better. So how do we connect with our child? How do we protect our children? And how do we take that opportunity to be present with our child?

 

Those are hard things for a lot of parents these days to be present, to be engaged with them and to look for ways to continually be working with them and protecting them and keeping them safe.

 

Laura Dugger: (22:33 - 22:58)

Wow. And I just want to share one of my favorite takeaways from page 143, where you write “Green rooted misbehavior needs coaching. Yellow roots need connection. And red roots need calming.” So, can you provide some examples with that last one of how we can calm a red rooted misbehavior?

 

Cherilyn Orr: (23:00 - 27:00)

Yes, I certainly can. So, all three of these are so important because we often miss it. I'm going to say that red root, it needs us to speak the red language, speak red brain. And to speak red brain means to stop talking about the problem.

 

That child does not have capacity to hear you when they are in a red brain state. They need me to be calm. They need me to be in green. And they need me to stop talking. And maybe to only use words that feel safe. You're safe. I'm here. You're safe. I'm here. There's no point in talking to anybody in red brain because they have no capacity to hear.

 

And then also to be able to go for a walk with your child. Repetitive patterning activities are really helpful. Like for my children, each of my children have, they have a green plan. It's like, what do I do when I'm starting to go to red?

 

So maybe for one of my children, we have a hammock outside. So, she goes there. These are planned ahead of time when they are in green. These are discussed ahead of time. So, another child will, you know, might listen to music, have a shower, go for a walk. Every single one of us, whether it be an adult or child, should look at what do I need to do to get back to green.

 

As a parent, when we're looking at green rooted misbehaviors, red rooted misbehaviors and yellow roots misbehaviors, you could have the same issue like two kids fighting. You come around the corner and there you see your two siblings fighting. As a parent, often we go to red immediately. Our brain state goes because it feels threatening. It feels fearful to us. And then we react.

 

So, I have to take a deep breath myself and I have to say, OK, what brain state is this child in? And sometimes we don't know. So, we can call the children and say, what's going on? Just stopping and asking the question will give us the opportunity to hear what brain state our child is in.

 

If they happily look it up and say, we were playing Pirates of the Caribbean or something that they had seen on a TV show, then you can say, OK, well, what you're doing is unsafe and somebody is going to get hurt. But they're just acting.

 

And then if it's a yellow brain state, it's like he pushed me, he touched me. And they're just kind of bickering at each other. They're not really all out fighting. But, you know, you can look at them and say, let's stop and let's make each other feel seen, heard and valued. So, you can work with that child because that child at that point is in yellow brain. And then we can speak yellow brain, which is people don't feel that they're being heard. They don't feel respected. And that's when you can talk about what other things that they could do instead.

 

And then, of course, we have red brain when these children are all out to hurt each other. They are mad. So that's when we can go into that red brain and say, OK, both of you need to get back to green. We're not going to talk about this right now. I want you to use your green plan and get yourselves back to green. And then we will talk.

 

Some children can do that independently and some children need you to do it with them. And sometimes it might be that you just take those two children out and say, we're going to run around the block together.” And it's how do you connect with your child at that particular time and keep them safe and get them moving and get their brain state back up to green before you talk with them.

 

Laura Dugger: (27:01 - 32:37)

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Now, back to the show. And then on our side, I love how you also bring in the repair piece. So how can we practically repair the relationship when we don't disciple and discipline from our green zone as the parent?

 

Cherilyn Orr: (32:38 - 34:39)

Yes, I feel like that is, it's really hard to ask your child to do anything that you're not doing because they're not going to actually be able to take that to heart. And if you say to a child, “I want you to say sorry to your sibling,” they're just going to look and go, “Sorry,” and have no meaning whatsoever.

 

And that's why we've done a lot of apology notes in my home over the years, because it's an opportunity to really sit down and reflect and talk. And we talk about how the card needs to be beautiful because we need to treasure that person. And so, they need to apologize for what they did. They need to talk about why on earth are they even writing this apology note? Why is that person of value? Because they're our sister or they're our brother or they're our friend or they're the teacher or the coach. And they are a part of our community and our family. So, we need to write that apology note to value that person.

 

And then we talk about what are we going to do next time. So those three points go into every single apology note my kids write: fix it, treasure it, change it. But you cannot do that when the child is in red. You cannot do it when they're in yellow. You need to have them back to green and then we can talk through it. And then they can go and deliver that to that person and then talk about how they can reconcile the situation. But I find that that's a really good reflective piece that I've used over the years.

 

But as a parent, it's hard to say sorry to your kid. It's easier to jump in and just treasure the child. You know, let's go to the park. Let's do this and just value the child. But then you end up having an insecure relationship because you've never acknowledged the problem. Therefore, you cannot change it. So therefore, you cannot have a healthy reconciliation.

 

Laura Dugger: (34:40 - 34:57)

And how have you seen this Stoplight Approach work across the world? So many different settings with different countries and cultures or families who foster and adapt or even ones raising children with special needs?

 

Cherilyn Orr: (34:59 - 36:53)

Well, the great thing about science is it doesn't change based on where you are in the world and what culture you're in. Every human has a brain, and all human brains function the same way. And all human brains need safety, connection and coaching.

 

So that's been the exciting part about understanding brain science. So, you know, even when I work in Africa, I'll say to people when I get malaria, do they give me a different medication because I'm from Canada or do they give me the same as you? And everybody says, of course, malaria is malaria. You know, it's because of science.

 

And I love that whole element of science that our brains are made the same. It doesn't matter what culture you're in and it doesn't matter what special needs you have. If I see a child and they're under the table and they're holding their ears, I might not know that child at all. But I know that that child is in red brain. I don't have to know if they're special needs. I don't have to know anything else. I can immediately diagnose what brain state that child is in. And then I can work at creating safety for that child. And connecting with that child. And then we can find out how do we move that child and work with that child, whatever their needs are.

 

And I have four adopted children, and I have fostered many children. In the process of doing that, I have recognized that every child needs to feel safe, connected, and then we can train them. So, it's like changing the equation for how we work with the children. But it works for all people. So, I don't have to have a different philosophy of parenting for my adopted child or my foster child or my biological children. Does that make sense?

 

Laura Dugger: (36:53 - 37:03)

Yes, absolutely. And to personalize it, how has The Stoplight Approach then worked in your life and with you and your husband raising your own children?

 

Cherilyn Orr: (37:05 - 41:32)

I just love the fact that it's a common language. So, I can give you an example of one day there was company coming and I was really stressed. And it seemed like everywhere I looked; every room was a disaster. You know, I had teenagers who were cooking and making themselves food and it was a mess. I had children that had used the bathroom and made a mess all through the bathroom. And then I had toys everywhere and sheets being made into forts. And I had company showing up.

 

And so, I was going into to Red Brain and I started going, “Who did this? What did you do? Who left this here? Who made this mess?” And one of my kids went and says, “Dad, mom's going to Red.” And that wasn't a judgment. That was like, this is a fact. We need your help here.

 

And so, dad comes along and he says, he puts his hand on my shoulder and he says, “You're going to Red.” He says, “Why don't you go for a walk? I'll do zone cleanup with the kids because I'm in green. And you can come back in 20 minutes and then you can do all the final tidy up before the kids come. And then that we could greet the company and green.”

 

So, it just becomes that common language of understanding. And he knew my need at that time. I was feeling unsafe because the house was a disaster. And my brain just was it's a brain issue, right? It's not a behavior issue. But then it was like, how do we support mom in this moment? And then I came back 20 minutes later and did the final little cleanups, and we were able to greet the company in green.

 

So, there's an example of using the common language as a way to help others in our family know what brain state you're in to support one another. And to be able to identify and connect.

 

I mean, I could give you tons of examples, even from the smallest child. They start to understand. “He made me go to red” or “I'm in red now.” So, then it's like, OK, so what do we need to do? How do we do this?

 

I mean, there's been days when all of a sudden I hear everybody kind of not doing too great. And I get them all to sit at the table. And I said, “So what color is our home right now?” And somebody say red. Somebody else says yellow. Then you're saying, “OK, but what kind of home do we want to have?” And they'll say green. So, what do we need to do to get it to green?

 

So, I think there's there's many, many different ways. But I think it's that common language that even the small child that's two and three can start to learn when they're in red or we can start to use it to teach empathy. When you did that to your sibling, what color did we make him? He didn't feel seen, heard and valued.

 

Just a few weeks ago, my daughter. Here's here's a recent example. We've had a refugee staying with us for a couple of years, a little girl, and she was about three. All of a sudden there was this blood curdling screaming, you know, just screaming. And I come around the corner going, “What's going on?” And my 12-year-old, very responsible, is holding scissors. She's running with scissors.

 

And so, my 12-year-old here was a chance to talk. And I said, “OK, so when you took her scissors away, she did not feel seen, heard and valued. Because when you took them away from her, you didn't actually speak to her. So, you need to get down on your knees, and you need to look at her and say, what did you want the scissors for? And we need to teach her. Where do we have scissors? How do we use them?”

 

So, she was being responsible to keep her safe. But she didn't make her feel seen, heard and valued and listen to her and say, “Oh, you want to cut your hair. Oh, only mommy cuts hair. You can't cut your hair, but we could use our scissors at the table.” So, using red, yellow and green helps to give incredible opportunities to teach empathy and to look at themselves, self-awareness and how to grow and take responsibility.

 

Laura Dugger: (41:34 - 42:06)

And I love how you talk about this common language in such a proactive way with our children, with our families. So that when we are in red, we've got a path and a plan to get back to green. And we've got some tips for repair.

 

So, when we go to the proactive side and kind of tie this back into the beginning, when we talked about relationships are the foundation for brain health and development. What are some ways to securely attach with our children during different ages and stages?

 

Cherilyn Orr: (42:08 - 45:54)

I think it comes back to being intentional. I often think of it as the 5-10-5 rule. Five minutes in the morning, five minutes in the evening and five minutes before they go to bed at night. It's that opportunity to stop what you're doing and to just focus in intentionally connecting with my child.

 

It's not easy. It's not easy. But it's how do I connect first thing in the morning when that child has been disconnected from me all night long? How do I connect with them first thing in the morning before they start their day? And then how do I connect with them like after school, before dinner? And how do I hear about what they want to tell me about their day? What part was red? What part was yellow? What kind of day they had?

 

One of my kids goes, “It was lime green.” And I'm like, “Okay, so how did that happen?”

 

“Well, I was in green and then I lost my backpack. So, I went to yellow, but then the teacher helped me find it. So, then I went back to green.” So that's how she described her day.

 

And then you have that connecting before they go to bed at night. That's just like, I see you, I know you, I hear you.

 

And so that can look differently according to different ages and stages of life. But I think holding that 5-10-5 is a good principle. And there are so many of my children that that 5-10-5 happens in hours and hours. Because they are children that demand my attention. And they are there and they are wanting that continual attention. So, some kids it happens more naturally too.

 

And then there are some children, and especially as they start getting older, it's a lot more challenging to be able to find that 5-10-5. And that doesn't mean in the busyness of the dinner table or in chore times. But it's about trying to connect with them and say, “I hear you. Tell me about your life. And where are you at?” Or just really just having fun with them. And just connecting to them and laughing with them and playing a game with them as well. Or going for a walk. We do a lot of that.

 

And with teenagers, and especially boys, it was all about the food. I would show up in their room with a milkshake or something else. Or call them out of their rooms to connect with them at different times. So, you have to be creative. It's not about my schedule sometimes. It's about looking at when they are open as well. Especially as you start getting into teenagers.

 

And I found that one of my teenagers, she'd always like to come and sit on my bed. Just at 11 o'clock at night. Just as I feel like I'm down for the night. And you know that baby is going to start waking up at 6 or 7. And you're just dying to go to sleep. But you know that this is important. She's ready to talk. And so, I need to be available.

 

Which isn't easy. But also, I think, how do we do that with seven children? Because that's a lot of kids. But my husband and I, we look at dividing and conquering. And then we look at special times. Like daddy time. Or going out with mom. Where I'll take one child to do a chore. Or go shopping. And I think that is really important to think about. How am I intentionally connecting with my child? So, I took a child to Canada recently. And I often will take a different child on different trips that I'm going on.

 

Laura Dugger: (45:55 - 46:15)

Okay, so five minutes right in the morning. Greeting each other. Five minutes before bed. And finding ten minutes of intentional time to connect. Is that one-on-one throughout the day?

 

Cherilyn Orr:

Yes.

 

Laura Dugger:

You've given us so many helpful tips to apply. Is there any other encouragement that you want to make sure that we don't miss out on?

 

Cherilyn Orr: (46:16 - 47:52)

I think when you hear a lot of these stories. First of all, I want you to know that I am not perfect. As a mom, it's a journey. And I don't want you to go away feeling like, I could never do all this. It's a journey one baby step at a time. And I encourage you to get the book. Listen to podcasts. And be able to join that journey. But don't be hard on yourself. And don't feel that sense of guilt and shame. That says, oh my, I messed up. That's okay.

 

Being able to recognize you messed up is a good thing. And also recognize that you think, oh man, I messed up on my kids. I did all the wrong things. I want to tell you that we all do the best we can with the knowledge that we have. And that's really, really important to know. It's like, this is a journey. And you are doing the best.

 

I learned all about behavior management. How do I control my child's behavior? And that was how I parented when I started this journey. And it has been a journey to shift into brain science. And to learn as much as I can about the brain science. And how it impacts my child. And to grow and be the parent that God wants me to be. But don't be hard on yourself in that way. That would be my biggest thing is. And to take one baby step. To decide one baby step that you take.

 

Laura Dugger: (47:52 - 47:57)

And where can people find and learn more from you online?

 

Cherilyn Orr: (47:58 - 48:14)

Well, look at the StoplightApproach.org. So that is our website. And you can follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube. And you can preorder and sign up for your book (Signals: How Brain Science and the Bible Help Parents Raise Resilient Children). You can get that on Amazon.

 

Laura Dugger: (48:15 - 48:32)

Wonderful. We will add those links to the show notes for today's episode. And Cherilyn, you may know we are called The Savvy Sauce. Because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so is my final question for you today. What is your Savvy Sauce?

 

Cherilyn Orr: (48:33 - 48:55)

I would say that it's not about controlling behavior. It's about connecting with my child. Relationship first rather than behavior first. It's like changing the equation. Relationship is the key. And everything else will flow out of that. And then if you can think of change the brain. Then you'll be able to change the behavior.

 

Laura Dugger: (48:56 – 49:20)

Oh, I love that. That is memorable. And I really appreciate your emphasis on relationship. And it's so helpful to hear your stories of how this has played out over time. And cultures. And how we can now take this common language into our own homes. So, Cherilyn, thank you so much for sharing this research. And your book with us. And thank you for being my guest today.

 

Cherilyn Orr: (49:21 – 49:23)

Thank you for having me.

 

Laura Dugger: (49:24 – 53:06)

One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Family Sabbath: Pause and Delight with Eryn Lynum (Episode 282)

282. Family Sabbath: Pause and Delight with Eryn Lynum

 

Mark 2:27 NIV “Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.”

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Eryn Lynum is a certified Master Naturalist, Bible teacher, national speaker, and author. Eryn lives in Northern Colorado with her husband, Grayson, and their four children, whom they homeschool—mainly in the great outdoors. Eryn has has been featured on FamilyLife Today, Proverbs 31 Ministries, Christian Parenting, MOPS International, Bible Gateway, Her View From Home, and For Every Mom. Every opportunity she gets, she is out exploring God’s creation with her family and sharing the adventures. To learn more about Eryn, visit ErynLynum.com.

 

Eryn’s Books

Eryn’s Free Resources Mentioned

Nat Theo Podcast

 

Topics and Questions We Cover:

1. What can this look like to daily align our activities with our deepest values?

2. What do people actually do on this day of rest and what do you recommend for families?

3. Are there any other practical benefits we’re missing out on if we neglect rest?

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company

 

Related Savvy Sauce Episodes:

81 Rest with Doctor, Author, and Speaker, Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith

99 Sabbath Rest with Sandy Feit

175 Practicing Sabbath with Shireen Eldridge

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:09)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:34) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.

 

Eryn Lynum is my wonderful guest for today, and she's the author of this beautiful book, The Nature of Rest. We're going to discuss all things related to rest, ways that we can prepare for it, how we can enjoy and delight in it, what good gifts God has for us with rest, and then how to reflect well on the rhythms in our life, and so much more.

 

Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Eryn.

 

Eryn Lynum: (1:34 - 4:03) Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, I'd love for you to start us off by sharing your personal journey and tell why you are so uniquely qualified to teach and write about rest, as stress can literally kill you.

 

Eryn Lynum: Yeah, that's correct. So, when I was 14 years old, I was diagnosed with a potentially fatal autoimmune disorder. And kind of the context of that season, I was preparing to go overseas for the first time on a missions trip. So, I was going to be in Africa for two months. And so, before you go do something like that, you have to go to the doctor and get a checkup and vaccine recommendations, all the things. And so, my parents took me in.

 

Again, I was 14 at the time, and we had no reason to believe that there was anything wrong. There were no red flags. Besides, I had been a little tired, a little dizzy once in a while, but really, we just thought, okay, well, I'm growing up, my body's changing. But when the nurse took my blood pressure that day, it was 56 over 48, which is deathly low.

 

And so, immediately, that's a red flag. And I undergo more testing and hospital visits and seeing specialists. And they diagnosed me with something called Addison's disease. And Addison's disease, it's where your adrenal glands no longer function. So, maybe you've heard of adrenal fatigue, where someone is so taxed out that their adrenal glands can't keep up because they're meant to produce cortisol, which is our stress hormone. Well, Addison's disease is the worst-case scenario where you can't come back from it, barring a miracle. Like, my adrenal glands don't work, and they haven't for over 20 years now.

 

And so, you know, this system that God has given us meant to cope with stress, and it's that fight-or-flight response. At that young age, I no longer had that. And so, stress became quite literally deadly to me. And at that point, my parents, they began coaching me in biblical stress management, so identifying stressors in my life.

 

You know, when your shoulders start creeping up, and you can feel that tension in your neck, and knowing that those are signs that, okay, you need to step back, you need to calm yourself. Like the Psalms talk about, “I have calmed and quieted my soul,” and to bring everything to the Lord and cast all your anxieties upon Him. And this is really where I can see, in my life, I developed a very consistent prayer pattern in my life where just all day long, like conversing with the Lord.

 

And so, that's been a big part of this. But yeah, that's really what began leading me into this deeply restful lifestyle was out of necessity. But really what I've seen since then is God designed all of us to live and thrive through rest. Like this is His original design.

 

Laura Dugger: (4:04 - 4:27) I love that so much. And you articulate this so well in your book. But before I ever encountered you, I had never heard of the term master naturalist before. So, if you want to share anything about that, it would be great. And as a master naturalist, where do you see these rhythms of rest in nature?

 

Eryn Lynum: (4:28 - 6:54) So, a master naturalist, it's really a fancy term for nature teacher. And I pursued this because my degree and my passion are in biblical theology. And I've always been passionate about rightly handling God's word of truth from 2 Timothy 2:15.

 

And I began to see as my own family, my husband and I, we have three boys and a daughter, and now they're 14 down to seven. But when they were younger and we started spending more time outdoors, I started to see, okay, God has given us so many visuals and materials in nature with which we can teach about Him. Coming from Romans 1:20, that His invisible attributes, those things we can't see about God, are clearly perceived through what He has made. And I saw that also Jesus in the gospels, He used nature all the time to teach.

 

And God throughout scripture, like it's not just Genesis 1, nature narratives are strong throughout scripture. And so, I thought if God and Jesus use this methodology to teach, then certainly we can. And so, that's why I went through this training and taught, teach with this method is because, you know, the more we understand these materials, the more we see of God and the more we can communicate about Him.

 

And so, I was working as a master naturalist in our city and teaching my own programs. And I started to incorporate it more and more into my book and then later on in my podcast. And at the same time, God was leading my family into celebrating Sabbath. We had come into this season where we were just exhausted, like running businesses and raising and homeschooling kids, like all of us, no matter our circumstances, face this very real human existence of fatigue. And so, we came to a place where rest was no longer optional. It was critical and vital.

 

And so, I'm living in these two realms of learning about nature while I'm learning about scripture. And then God is bringing us into deep rest. So, I started to ask the question, where do we see rest in scripture? And I found that it is everywhere. The roots of rest run deep and wide throughout scripture. And also asking, where do we see rest in creation in nature? And it's also everywhere there that God designed all these cycles and these rhythms and all of his plants and creatures, even the ones that we think of as so frenetic and busy that God designed them to thrive through rest.

 

Laura Dugger: (6:55 - 7:04) And will you give a specific example then of something in nature as it's so apparent that it's designed for rest?

 

Eryn Lynum: (7:04 - 8:28) Definitely. Let's focus on one of those ones that we often think of as really busy, the hummingbird. I opened the book with the analogy of a hummingbird because when you think about a hummingbird, what do you picture in your mind?

 

Laura Dugger: (7:17 - 7:19) Busy, constant movement in and out.

 

Eryn Lynum: (7:20 - 8:28) Yeah, exactly. Like they have to visit between 1,000 and 2,000 flowers every day to get all the nectar that they need. And so, they are always like here and there in the next place. And they look like this little thing just zipping through the air and you can't even see their wings beating because they can be up to 70 times a second. It's this blur of motion. And we think about that little hummingbird, and we can sometimes feel like that little hummingbird just zipping from one thing to the next, thinking there's no time to stop.

 

But the hummingbird does stop. It has a very strategic method of rest called torpor. And torpor is kind of like a mini hibernation where the little bird is going to go into this deep state of rest. It lowers its body temperature by around 50 degrees and becomes completely unresponsive. And this is a regular thing that the hummingbird does, and it enables it to continue its God-given, good, busy, fruitful work. So, it's this picture of, you know, busyness is not bad. God created us for fruitful work, but it's all meant to be sustained through deep, rhythmic, intentional rest.

 

Laura Dugger: (8:28 - 9:06) I mean, immediately that makes me think of the weeks, even that I'm most productive, I've probably prioritized my sleep the best of it. And if I get great sleep, even if it's extra hours, that doesn't take away from the rest of the day. That probably makes my time even multiplied.

 

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I love, you point out so many times how God just clearly designed his creation to enjoy this gift of rest. So, you mentioned some of the nature parts. What about some of the foundational scriptural truths on this topic?

 

Eryn Lynum: (9:07 - 11:52) Yeah, well, of course, where's the first place that we get the idea of rest in the scripture? Yeah, exactly. So, God completes his work of creation and then he rests and he didn't need to rest. Isaiah 40:28 tells us that he, the creator of the world does not grow weary or tired.

 

I believe that one reason, and I talk about a couple of them in the book, but I believe that one main reason God rested was to stop and delight. That word Sabbath, it comes from the Hebrew word Shabbat, which can mean to both stop and delight. Like think about God finishing his creative work, bringing, bringing everything from nothing. Ex nihilo is that theological term, everything from nothing. Creating not only the animals and the plants, but the textures and the math and the shapes and the like everything he needed to make these things. And I imagine he just wanted to stop and enjoy it. I can even picture him going through creation and listening to the birds and taking in the colors and the shapes of the clouds.

 

What a beautiful reminder to us, because I know for myself, I'm so prone to just run from one thing to the next, like check it off the list. What's next? But here God is modeling for us. Stop delight, praise him for what he just allowed us to accomplish, to create, to do before rushing on to the next thing.

 

And so, we get that first mentioned there at creation, but then think about when Sabbath was actually established, there's a framework, there's a structure it's Exodus 16. And the context here is the Israelites. They're doing what they do. They're wandering and grumbling. They're hangry and God shows mercy to them in the form of quail and manna, but he has very specific instructions for them. He says for six days, you shall gather it, but not on the seventh day. Don't go out. It is a solemn day, a Holy Sabbath to the Lord.

 

That's the first mention of Sabbath, that word in scripture, but consider the Israelites. They had no context for what God was calling them to do. Surely they could think back to the creation story. Okay. God worked and then rested, but they had very little idea of what he was asking them to do. This was an act of faith. God was saying, stop gathering, trust me.

 

And this is so hard for us because like we are so prone to gather, gather, gather, do produce work more out of this scarcity mindset. But this picture is showing God is a God of abundance and his math works. When we trust him to be the provider, not ourselves. And we take that risk on rest. He provides abundantly through it.

 

Laura Dugger: (11:53 - 12:05) Absolutely. And within this gift then of rest, how can rest actually reorder and re-energize our lives?

 

Eryn Lynum: (12:05 - 14:03) I love this question because throughout the book, we talk a lot about reordering and creating margins. So, we can rest and reprioritizing. You know, it's so interesting when we look at the creation narrative, where we get that first mention of rest, because it's backwards to what we normally think.

 

Think about this. God created for six days and then he rested. Adam, the first human was created on that sixth day. So, Adam's first full day was a day of arrest, dedicated to rest. And in this, we see that God worked and then rested. But we, humanity, we were always meant to begin from rest.

 

And you see that even in the Hebrew tradition of a day, their day begins at evening. Their day doesn't start with, let's get up and get to work. Their day starts with, let me go to rest to get ready for the work. So, first we have to reorder our concept of rest, not see it as a reward. Oh, I'm going to work, work, work, get all the things done so that maybe I can rest this weekend or on vacation, or when the kids are out of the house or in retirement, that's backwards to the biblical framework. We are meant to begin from rest.

 

So, starting there. And as we do that, my family has found after sabbathing for three and a half years now, everything else kind of falls into place. And that happens when you operate by God's design. You know, rest allows us to tend to the most important things. Those deep values, whether like that should be of course, faith and family. So, getting clear on your values is really important. Like what is most important to your family faith? Maybe it's community generosity. Maybe it's physical health, mental health, all these things do better. And we have more time to tend to them when we first make room and space for rest.

 

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It never ceases to amaze me how God's economy and his math are just different. Sometimes upside down from ours, but I feel like when you're speaking, it reminds me of Matthew 6:33, “But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you.” So, if we actually obey, I think there are so many blessings that we can enjoy from this gift of rest. So, you're talking about our values. Then what can this look like to daily align our activities with our deepest values?

 

Eryn Lynum: (16:30 - 18:30) Yes, this is an ongoing practice because the enemy is always trying to distract us from what is most important. And that word there is key distract. And so, first we have to learn to identify those distractions, the things that are pulling us away from what is most important, but you know, getting to those core values and on my website, I have, my husband and I developed a family values guide that helps you step by step to really figure out what are our deepest values.

 

So, that's erinlynum.com/values. But really what it is, is this practice of getting clear on God's best for, for us and for our families and for those around us and, and making sure that we are aligning and realigning because it's going to get out of alignment, those values with God's agenda. You know, a lot of days I just start my day with a restful pause.

 

I call them in the book, Selah pauses. And I am quite literally, I am sitting before the Lord, my eyes closed and my hands just up in this posture of surrender and receiving. And I will say, Lord, I am surrendering my own agenda, my own expectations for this day. And I want to receive your power, your presence, your peace. And then throughout the day, just taking those checks.

 

Like I practice these daily Selah pauses and moments of rest because think about Selah in the Psalms. It can mean to pause, to contemplate, to redirect. And we need to do that often because as a day goes on, I think we lose energy and focus. You know, at the beginning of the day, we might feel really like focused. And this is what I'm getting done today. And that can waver like that can wane out as the day goes on. And so, constantly just checking back in.

 

Okay, Lord, what is it you have for me to do today? And how do I tend to those most important things? But you have to take that restful pause to be able to do that.

 

Laura Dugger: (18:31 - 18:46) That's good reminder. Okay. So, to check back in with the Lord and then can you give another example of one family and what their value is and how they live that out in their daily life. And maybe even what requires us to say no to.

 

Eryn Lynum: (18:47 - 20:15) Ooh, that's a fantastic question. Hmm. Can it be for my own family or do you want me to give them love it from your own family?

 

Okay. I was asked this question recently. Someone asked me, how do you make time to be outside as a family? One of our core family values is to be out exploring in God's creation. And this has been harder in different seasons. And we have two middle schoolers now, you know, we are, we have a lot going on.

 

And so, it can very quickly happen where at the end of the day, we're like, wow, we really didn't spend much time outdoors today, but how we prioritize this is you do have to say no to other things. So, we're a homeschooling family. And just as an example, it can be very tempting to feel like, am I doing enough? Am I teaching them enough? We need to check off all these boxes and get the lessons done. And it's constantly surrendering that and realizing, you know, I know that our value of being outdoors is important to God. I know that he is meeting my children there. He is meeting me there. He is giving us rest and rejuvenation there.

 

So, trusting with that, again, going back to the Israelites, stop gathering, stop checking off all the boxes, stop trying to provide and meet your own expectations. And instead stay super focused on what God has called you to and ruthlessly get rid of the rest, anything that's keeping you from that.

 

Laura Dugger: (20:16 - 20:36) I love that personal example. Thank you for sharing. And how can we also in our own families or in our own life, how can we distinguish which activities are vital for the abundant life in Christ that he offers so that we don't settle for less?

 

Eryn Lynum: (20:38 - 22:46) I love that you bring up that, that term, the abundant life. In John 10:10, that Christ came, that we might have life and life abundantly overflowing to the fullest, like brimming over is what that word means. And that scripture also says the enemy comes to steal and kill and destroy.

 

And I believe that one of the enemy's biggest schemes and methods for that is to send us into hurry and hustle mode. And he does that through distraction and discontent. And so, so much of this is pressing back against distraction and discontent and getting back to how God created us to thrive.

 

And again, I believe that that is through this, this gift of rest. You know, you talk about, you asked about settling for less. The enemy is going to put a million things in our life that would cause us to want to settle for less.

 

Let me give you an example of him trying to distract us. There was a recent weekend where we were coming up on the weekend, and I had several friends reach out and ask about me doing these things like these different opportunities coming our way. Like, do you want to do this? Do you want to do this? And each of them were for on Saturday and that's usually when our family Sabbaths. And so, I had this tension because these were good things.

 

It's hard to say no to a good thing, but I kept feeling again and again, the Lord saying, no, rest with your family, rest with your family. And it was so sweet because come Saturday morning, I was out on our back deck sipping coffee with my husband for hours, having incredible conversations, reading great books. The kids are playing in the yard.

 

Several times I caught myself thinking, I almost said no to this by saying yes to other things. And again, they were good things. This life is full of good things, but God's rest is one of the best things for our families. So, it's learning to be okay with saying no to those good things. So, you can say yes to that better thing.

 

Laura Dugger: (22:48 - 23:17) Examples are so helpful. And that requires a level of discernment and going to the Lord to ask him, but I'm wondering if you even have a system in place for how you discern that, or is it a gut piece that you follow or any practical ways that each of us can discern what's the right kind of busy that's good. And what's the wrong kind of busy and the things that we want to say no to.

 

Eryn Lynum: (23:18 - 25:05) Yeah. Going back to, again, busy is not bad. God created us for fruitful work, but I think, you know, when we are following Christ and God's spirit is within us, he's going to give us that sense of this is the right kind of busy.

 

This is the wrong kind of busy. And practically, you know, if it has any notion of distraction, like if you're doing this thing to just distract you or to procrastinate on better things, if it has a note of busyness, you know, some people will be like, well, some people, the enemy makes us want to think that sitting on our phones can be restful because you're not technically doing much of anything, but that distraction is stealing God's true gift of rest for us.

 

And so, you know, our family, as we practice Sabbath throughout the week, I know that come Saturday, we have a full day of rest. And sometimes it's tempting to add a little work into there, to let it seep out of those edges of the work week and kind of into our Sabbath. And as you practice this more and more and begin just ruthlessly protecting that time, whether it's a full day, whether you start with a half day, God is going to make you more sensitive to those things. Because sometimes I'll like work it out in my mind, like, oh, this isn't work. And really like it's definitely, it's definitely trying to serve my work during the work week.

 

And God is saying, no, like step away from that and allow me to refresh and rejuvenate your spirit so that when you go back to the work, you do so much more powerfully energized, restful, and ready to do that work to the very best of your ability with God's power.

 

Laura Dugger: (25:07 - 25:36) That reminds me of a previous guest I'll link to. He did two episodes, but Jeff Henderson just said he's a pastor too. And he said, sometimes the most spiritual thing you can do is take a nap.

 

I would agree on that, which you've kind of been sharing a little glimpses of your family's experience with Sabbath, but let's just zero in on Sabbath and I'll just try and go through a series of questions. But first what's the importance of Sabbath?

 

Eryn Lynum: (25:37 - 26:55) Well, first God commands it. Like if God commanded it, then surely it's important, but that can also sometimes cause us to get a little legalistic about it. What is it? What isn't it? Well, it is meant to be a gift, meant to be a blessing. It's meant to empower us and what God created us for and calls us to.

 

And so, keeping that just center, this is meant to be a gift, but we see it all throughout scripture, the importance of rest and rest in God's design. It's celebration. Like it's not idleness. It's not doing nothing. Although sometimes like that's the most beneficial way that we can rest. Like you talked about a nap.

 

I love a good nap on Sabbath, but also it can be energizing activities, inspiring activities. I also love a good long walk on Sabbath. Sometimes I love cooking with fresh ingredients and working on a meal during Sabbath because I don't get much opportunity to do that during the week. Sometimes I love going out and working in the garden because that's life giving and I don't have time to do that throughout the week. And so, getting back to this concept, this idea of Sabbath and rest are celebratory. Like when we do it well as a family, it feels like a mini vacation every week.

 

Laura Dugger: (26:56 - 27:15) Ooh, I love that. My husband said that before about date night and I connect with that, that it's a little mini reprieve, a mini vacation each week. But then that leads me to the question because I bet so many people share their Sabbath activities with you. What do families actually do on this day of rest?

 

Eryn Lynum: (27:16 - 31:46) Yeah, that's a great question. And first I'll say that it should look different from family to family. We are all in unique seasons. We have different stories, different scenarios. Again, if you can't start with the full day, now I strongly believe strive and work toward that full day. That's God's design.

 

And we've seen the most blessing from that. But if you have to start smaller with a half day with four hours, start there. So, it's going to look different. If you have newborns, like a newborn child, it's going to look different and that's okay. No going into it, that it's going to be messy. Hebrews says strive toward rest, work toward rest. It's so counter-cultural. We have to work toward it. So, just going in, knowing these things is very helpful.

 

It's also going to grow, adapt, and change throughout the seasons. Our family has seen that. But a typical Sabbath for our family right now is we follow the traditional Friday evening to Saturday evening for the most part. Some people ask me, why not Sunday? Isn't Sunday the Sabbath? Well, for us, Sunday is set aside for church community and fellowship and corporate worship. And that's so life-giving to our souls. But by the time I get home from church and I'm making lunch for the family, like I'm not rested physically. So, we needed a separate day set aside for rest.

 

And so, Friday afternoon, we start preparing where we're going to band together and just pick up the house, get it ready, wash all the dishes and just start preparing our hearts, our minds, our bodies, our home for rest. And then we start Friday evening with communion as a family, just breaking bread and celebrating what Christ did on our behalf. And again, that, that idea of celebrate, and this marks it as special. Okay. We're heading into Sabbath. Some families will like light a white candle for Sabbath, just really marking it.

And then we have, we toast to the week. So, we'll pour sparkling juice and just toast and say, “Hey, what did we see God do this week?” Like going back to that idea of stop and delight, we are setting a hard stop to the week. We are delighting. What did we see God do? What did he help us overcome? What can we thank Him for from this past week? And then we'll do an easy dinner. Think tacos, take and bake pizza spaghetti.

 

We use paperware, which is a bit controversial since I work as a master naturalist, but it has been an easy button for Sabbath that I'm not worried about like dishes piling up on the counter. And then we'll, we'll wrap it up with a sweet treat like ice cream and then our kids go to bed, or they'll listen to audio books. Audio books have been massive for our Sabbath because they're screen-free because we do put away all screens and work like devices on Sabbath, but they can listen to good books.

 

And my husband and I, we read, like people ask me, when do you find time to read? You don't find time to read. You have to make time to read. And for us, that's on the Sabbath mostly. And then Saturday we sleep in, we get up pretty early during the week and the kids just know like you don't wake mom and dad on the Sabbath. Like that's their day to sleep in.

 

Again, if you have a newborn or young children, that's gonna look different and that's okay. But for us, that's the season that we're in and our kids, they'll make themselves first breakfast and then eventually we'll get up and we'll join them for a second breakfast or some Sabbath. I don't want to cook at all. And so, it's just take and forage. And you know, I usually have a grocery delivery the day before or go to the grocery store and make sure we just have a ton of good stuff in the house. So, no one's, you know, everyone has what they need.

 

Then the rest of the day, it is just a day of delight. Reading books, playing games, being out in creation, visiting with neighbors, having great conversations together. Sabbath is this space where you get to do all those things during the week that you're like, oh, I wish I had time for that and you just don't get to them. Like recently my daughter during the week, she really wanted me, she's seven. She wanted me to sit down and watercolor paint with her, which I love doing, but it was a really busy week. And I just didn't have the space.

 

And so, I told her like, “Hey, I would love to do that. Can we do that on Sabbath?” And she was so happy with that answer. And come that Sabbath a few days later, she remembered, she came up to me. She's like, mom, it's time to paint. And she got all the supplies, and we went and sat outside at our picnic table and painted for the afternoon.

 

You know, Sabbath does so much for me as a mom to remove that guilt of the things I don't feel like I have time for because I know, and my kids know, Sabbath is coming and that's our day to be together and do those things.

 

Laura Dugger: (31:47 - 31:57) Hmm. Okay. That makes me curious. Then to how much of a vote does everyone in the family get for what Sabbath will look like?

 

Eryn Lynum: (31:57 - 34:02) Oh, that is a great question. No one's ever phrased it to me like that before. I love that. What we found that's been important to keep in mind is that we all individually find different things, restful and inspiring. I'll give you an example. One Sabbath, my husband, especially in the spring, he loves to work in the yard on Sabbath because he spends most of his week. He runs a construction company on the computer or on the phone. And so, in the spring, he wants to be out in the yard and trimming his fruit trees and just working with God's creation. And so, one Sabbath he comes and he has like the clippers in his hand and he's like, “Hey, let's go work on the yard.”

 

And I was like, that's great. You do that. I'm going to go read my book in the hammock. And I fell asleep for two hours while he worked on the yard. And so, a lot of this is being okay that yes, a lot of it's going to be together. Like I talked about, we did, we do communion together and we do meals together. And a lot of times we'll be out on a hike together. That's a favorite Sabbath activity. But a lot of times we're also doing separate activities.

 

The kids are enjoying their books or their audio books or their painting or their, uh, visiting the neighbor kids. And my husband and I are reading books on the back deck. And so, it's okay that there's going to be some together time and some separate time, you know, just being flexible with it. Like our first year of Sabbath, we went, we had to go like hardcore. We had to learn to stay. I think about in the book, I talk about the word abide meno in the Greek and it can mean to stay, to dwell, to remain.

 

So, we've spent our first year of Sabbath, not getting in the car. We stayed home and learned to just be home together. And after that year, we started to miss our time. We live in Colorado, missing our time hiking in the mountains. And so, we changed it. We said, okay, well, toward the end of Sabbath Saturday afternoon, Saturday evening, let's go hike or let's go have a picnic in the wilderness. And just being open to that, that God's going to change you as a family and change you individually. And just growing up in a Sabbath practice together.

 

Laura Dugger: (34:03 - 34:20) I like the freedom that you're communicating there. And then when you mentioned the neighborhood kids, it makes me curious. Do you encourage community for some of those who recharge with other people? Would you recommend Sabbath thing with others or just keeping it your family?

 

Eryn Lynum: (34:21 - 36:16) Absolutely. We love inviting others into Sabbath. And it actually started with, we started our Sabbath practice. It was so sweet because God convinced us to do this. And then our first Sabbath was on January 1st. That happened to be the first Saturday that we did it. So, it was like this fresh start. And right around that time, we had moved to a new neighborhood. And our neighbors near us are Messianic Jews.

 

And they follow Shabbat, the traditional Shabbat. And they invited us into that. It was the sweetest evening, and they have children, young children, like we do. So, like there's chaos and there's mess. And then there's sweet times of singing together and scripture reading. And they follow it much more the traditional method than our family has.

 

But it was so sweet to be invited into that and to get a picture for how to invite others into this rest. And so, absolutely, we encourage, especially our kids having friends over. And we do usually ask parents, hey, can you drop them off? And then we can bring them back maybe like later that day toward the end of our Sabbath. Or if you want to come pick them up. Because again, we like to just stay home if we can.

 

But our kids are to the point now too where they can ride their bikes over to friends' houses. And we're fine with that. They might not be home on Sabbath once in a while. It's not a regular thing. But they're getting fed. And we know that the people they're with are people who share our values, people that we do life together.

 

We love having bonfires in the backyard on Sabbath. Now one thing I have to be careful of is I don't want to invite people over and feel like I need to host or clean up first. And so, for one, we don't have full families over a whole lot on Sabbath because I just don't want any sort of self-induced, self-imposed pressure.

 

But sometimes it's so much fun to just be like, hey, let's go meet at a park and have a picnic dinner. Or let's have a family over and do a bonfire. Just making sure that you're keeping it really, really simple if you are going to incorporate community.

 

Laura Dugger: (36:17 - 37:54) Guess what? We are no longer an audio-only podcast. We now have video included as well. If you want to view the conversation each week, make sure you watch our videos. We're on YouTube, and you can access videos or find answers to any of your other questions about the podcast when you visit thesavvysauce.com.

 

Some of these things, like you said, “They do require forethought where you have the groceries coming or certain things in place. And I think you even refer to it as a sacred striving.” So, it's important for us to learn more about that. And here's a quick story.

 

I just remember we've moved states quite a few times in marriage. But when I was a young mom, there was a mom in the next season of life, and she had more kids than we did. And we went to church together, and she was just like, “Oh, we learned about Sabbath. That's not a thing for moms with multiples.” And I always wrestled with that, and I love her. She's a wonderful person. Maybe she's even changed her stance on that, so it's not to speak ill of her. But I do think that we can struggle with that because that's not an actual truth. I do think that's a message from the enemy.

 

So, I guess this is a two-part question. How do we protect ourselves from buying into a storyline that is not true that may hold us back from Sabbath? And then also, what is kind of the both and? It's both restful, and it requires a lot of work up front to make this a reality.

 

Eryn Lynum: (37:55 - 41:19) It does, and knowing that, that it is going to take work, but God's going to bless it. Think about Isaiah 55:10-11, that says, “Just like the rain and the snow go forth and produce life and bring forth life from the land, so my work goes out and does not return void or empty. It produces that which I sent it out for.”.

 

That is true for Sabbath and rest because, again, we find it all throughout scripture. So, know that it's going to take hard work, but God will not allow it to return void. He will bless our efforts as we step into His design that He created us for.

 

I talk about in the book a few ways that you have to prepare mentally, physically, and spiritually. So, mentally, for me, I have to just totally remove anything mentally that's going to distract me from rest. So, I own a business, and so a lot of my work is on the computer and on the phone. I will answer, so this is like Friday, I'll answer any lingering emails, those ones that are going to be on my mind if I don't get to them. And then I put an away message on my email. So, if anyone emails me on our Sabbath, it sends an automatic reply that says, hey, thanks for your message. My family's resting. It has a little blurb in there about Sabbath. I'll get back to you in the new week.

 

That gives me permission to not even look at my email. In fact, people expect that I'm not looking at my email if I'm keeping my word. And so, this has just freed me up mentally to step away, and then I literally put my laptop in my closet.

 

With my phone, I set it to a Sabbath mode, and you can create these different focus modes if you have a smartphone, so that I can only receive messages from my mom in case of emergency. And our people, our friends, they all know this now. Like, oh, I'm not going to hear back from Erin because it's Saturday for the most part.

 

And so, these little things that you might just need to mentally prepare yourself. And then physically, that goes back to preparing our home. So, this is not a deep clean that we do prior to Sabbath. It's just tending to the things that are going to distract me if we don't get to them beforehand. So, again, washing all the dishes and having the kitchen clean, vacuuming. Like, that's like just a hack to make the house feel clean is I feel like it's clean if it's vacuumed.

 

So, just these little things, and then physically also doing that grocery order. And I have a free Sabbath guide on my website, erinlynum.com/family-sabbath. And it walks you through creating your Sabbath grocery list so that every week you have what you need in the house. These little things that truly make it, Sabbath easier and more successful.

 

And then preparing spiritually, going into this, like a lot of times I'll know, okay, I'm going to study this on Sabbath. For our first year, I just had like this stack of books on Sabbath that I would work through on our Sabbath. Right now, I am parked in Genesis 1 and have been for weeks. And so, just preparing spiritually, you know, this is a time of communion with our creator, with our heavenly father. And so, just having an idea of, you know, this is how I want to spend time delighting in God on the Sabbath.

 

That might be a long walk. That might be time in the word or time of worship but making sure that that is a keystone part of your Sabbath practice.

 

Laura Dugger: (41:20 - 41:45) And, you know, it really is possible. I just think so many of us celebrate holidays and we do the same thing where we plan, prepare, prioritize ahead of time so that we can delight in that day. And what a gift to get to do that weekly. So, with all of these amazing benefits, why do we still resist God's design for rest?

 

Eryn Lynum: (41:46 - 43:00) Because we live in a fallen world, broken by sin, and the enemy wants to do everything he can to keep us from this. This is God's design and our faith, and our souls and our families flourish in this design. And so, the enemy is going to do whatever he can to keep us from it.

 

He's going to insert fear. He's going to insert distraction. He's going to insert doubt. You know, when we started this practice coming up to it, I was thinking, there's no way, like how are we going to get everything done in one last day a week, all these doubts. And yet what we found so quickly is that as we took this step of faith, we quickly became so much more productive and effective and creative during the work week, because we were starting from rest and following God's design.

 

We resist this because it is counter-cultural. Everything in society is set up against us doing this and succeeding in this. So, again, going and knowing that our war is not against flesh and blood. It is against the powers of the spheres, like things unseen. The enemy is against us, but God is on our side. And as we step into his design, he's going to make much of it.

 

Laura Dugger: (43:01 - 43:12) Okay. So, if we are convinced and we want to give this a try, what is a practical first step to just obeying this and receiving this gift of rest?

 

Eryn Lynum: (43:13 - 45:23) Yeah, super practical here. Two first steps. The first is to set a day and time. Now you're not committing to this forever. And again, if you, if a big hesitancy here is I can't do a full day. Okay. Work and pray toward that but start smaller. If it's four hours on a Wednesday, guard that time. Ruthlessly guard it. Don't let anything be written on the schedule besides that.

 

So, set a day in time and then write two lists. This is going back to the idea of stop and delight, right? Your stop list. These are things that send you into hurry and hustle mode, things that are related to normal work, things that feel heavy. Some of them are so important.

 

Again, our work is important, but this is going to be things like devices, media, regular work, answering emails, phone calls. It might be driving in traffic. It might be spending money. Write down those things that feel heavy. That's your stop list. The things you're not going to entertain on that day or that time.

 

And then write your delight list. This might be hard at first because what I've found with myself, with many of us is that we forget what we delight in but causes that childlike sense of play and wonder. This is learning to be human again, coming back to those things.

 

So, it might be playing music or listening to music, working with fresh ingredients, reading a good book, writing by hand, watercolor painting, going for a walk. What we find is that a lot of people who spend time during the week in front of a computer want to be outdoors on the Sabbath, but people who run a landscaping company might want to be inside with a great book. So, just writing down those things that are, again, those things that you think during the week, oh, I really wish I could get to that.

 

Only we don't. Those are your delight list. So, now you have a day and a time. You know what you're not going to do, what you're setting aside, even physically, that should probably most definitely be your phone. Stick it in a drawer. I have my Sabbath drawer where I put my phone, and then you know what you're going to do and spend that day on.

 

Laura Dugger: (45:24 - 45:47) That's so good. And for those who have been listening for a while, they could even put their phone in their RO box, and I could link to that episode as well with Joey Odom. That's incredible about where our phone could be in its right place.

 

But Eryn, are there any other practical benefits that we might be missing out on that you've seen as a result of this Sabbath rest?

 

Eryn Lynum: (45:48 - 49:44) One of my favorite benefits is how it unlocks our creativity. Whether you work in a career or position that you consider creative or not, God designed all of us to be creative, to produce. And so, what I have found is that my work, my work is very in that creative sphere, writing books, creating podcast lessons for children.

 

It's very creative work. And I've found that Sabbath is this day where God gives my mind rest. It's so incredible thinking about how he wired our brains to thrive through rest, and science points to that that a restful mind is better at problem-solving, connecting ideas, remembering details.

 

And so, as my mind is allowed to rest on Sabbath, and I'm out on a walk in nature, or I'm reading a good book, or I'm writing by hand, when it comes time to sit down at the computer Monday morning, I am ready. I am flowing with ideas. They are there.

 

And I'll give you an example. This one isn't from Sabbath. It's from one of my daily rest rhythms that I call Selah Pause, and that's a walk in the morning. And this might be a little controversial, but this is not an easy stroll. I have my rucking pack on, and I'm trekking up a hill, which is not physically restful, of course, but it's mentally restful for me. I love it.

 

And so, it was in January, so it's frigid out, and everything's covered in snow, and I'm in all my snow gear, and I'm trudging up this hill. And at the time, I was dealing with a problem in my podcast where it was a good problem. We had spent the month teaching about God's designs in the human body. So, we had taught kids about God's designs in cells and DNA and the heart and the brain, but I didn't want to just let this series end. I wanted to wrap it up in some powerful way, and I didn't know how. So, I could have stayed home that morning and hashed this out and been at the computer, and how should I end this thing?

 

Instead, I went on this walk, and God just dropped this idea in my mind. And it was this idea. He said, ask the kids how they are wonderfully made. And that was the top. The theme was wonderfully made. And so, I put it out there to my email list. When I got back from that walk, I said, hey, I would love to hear how you kids believe you are wonderfully made by the creator. And I opened up this little voice mailbox on our website, and I didn't know if anyone would respond. And then I'm like, what if they don't? And then I don't know what to do because I said I'm going to do this thing.

 

I tell you, message after message came in from children from ages. I think it was three or four up to 14 from all over the world. And I was weeping as I edited that episode. I had planned to add something at the beginning and the end to build out this episode. I didn't do that because it was, I believe it's 22 minutes straight of children saying, this is my name.

 

I'm five years old. I live in England and I'm wonderfully made because God made me to read well or God made me fast. Or one little boy shared, he said, I know I'm wonderfully made because my mama lost a baby before me. And I'm here and I'm wonderfully made. And I'm weeping.

 

And this idea that God gave me, I would have missed it if I hadn't taken that pause to be out in his creation walking that day. And so, that's a very roundabout way to get back to your question of what are the other benefits? We hear from God when we make time for rest. And if we keep just rushing and hurrying, I'm concerned that we are walking by so many opportunities to hear from his spirit and to let him unlock that potential within us.

 

Laura Dugger: (49:45 - 50:22) Oh, I love that. And I'm even reminded of one other thing that you write in your book that today, one way we can practically experience his original design of rest is by stepping outside. And you're full of tips and ideas like that, but I so appreciate those stories.

 

So, you've equipped us with this foundation of rest and ways that we can prepare for it, how we can enjoy and delight in it. And so now, Eryn, how can we reflect well on our rhythms of work and rest?

 

Eryn Lynum: (50:25 - 53:19) So, much of this is reflection. So, much of this is stopping to consider where God is at work in our lives, where we need to recalibrate, where we need to realign, where we need to step back into his pace because we're trying to run ahead of him. And one way that we can see it, you know, like you might ask the question, am I at rest? Even me sometimes on Sabbath, I'm like, am I doing this right? Like, is this actually restful? Is this what I'm supposed to be doing?

 

I think we can answer that question by the fruit in our lives, the fruit inside of us that God is producing and the fruit that we are producing. So, one thing I kind of sum up the book on is this question of, are you growing in truth and love? Because the enemy, when he gets us away from God's rest and into hustle, into distraction and hurry, we are not fully experiencing God.

 

And so, our levels of experiencing his love and offering it to others is going to suffer. Our experience of hearing his truth and living that truth out in our lives is going to suffer. And so, the opposite is true that as we live at rest, this whole concept of abide, that is living at rest, not just these rest practices, but living at rest in God's restful presence, we are going to be producing more love and more truth.

 

So, that's like a key visual. And then I love on that idea of abide. We spent a whole week on abide in the book and, you know, John chapter 15 being the abide passage. And what we see there is there's these 11 mentions of that word abide. And they all refer to us abiding in Christ, Christ abiding in us, God's word abiding in us. So, all this connectivity between Christ and God and us and his word.

 

But then it's, I think it's verse 16. There's a different mention of meno, abide. And it says that he wants us to go out and produce fruit that abides. So, this is different. It relates to our fruit and that word abide. Yes, it can mean dwell, remain, stay, but it can also mean continue and endure.

 

God created us to produce fruit and fruit that endures. Doesn't rot, doesn't fade, but continues into eternity. So, we can look at, okay, am I personally in my spirit? Am I growing in truth and love? Because God's spirit actually has the space to minister to me when I rest. And is that rest directly affecting the fruit of my life?

 

These are key things that we can look at and ask to see. Are we truly living from God's rest?

 

Laura Dugger: (53:19 - 53:53) I love questions so much. And that's so good to reflect then on the fruit that's being produced. And a mentor many years ago said, you never reap what you sow in the same season. So, that's a great place to even begin just reflecting. What did we do in the past season and what fruit are we reaping now? And where do we want to go then from here?

 

And one place we could go from here after this chat is to follow you. And you've mentioned your podcast. Do you want to elaborate on all the places that you're available?

 

Eryn Lynum: (53:54 - 55:03) Yes, thank you. So, the new book, The Nature of Rest is available wherever you get your books, along with my second book, Rooted in Wonder: Nurturing Your Family's Faith Through God's Creation. And that's all about taking our kids or grandkids, the next generation outside and reconnecting the dots between creation and creator. Really returning nature study and time outdoors to its proper place as theology and the study of God.

 

So, those are available anywhere, including Amazon or my website, which is my name, erynlynum.com. And then my podcast is Nat Theo, short for Natural Theology. It's nature lessons rooted in the Bible. It's a podcast for kids and families where we dive deep into science and all the design and intelligence we see in creatures and plants. And we tie it all back to biblical truth so that our kids are learning science and theology at the same time.

 

And that's available on any podcast platform, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, right on my website, erinlynum.com, as well as YouTube. We actually provide visuals so you can watch what you're learning about as well.

 

Laura Dugger: (55:04 - 55:22) So, incredible. We will add links to that in the show notes for today's episode. And Eryn, you may already be familiar. We're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Eryn Lynum: (55:24 - 56:34) I love this question. And this is one that actually I was like, oh, I'm not asked this much. I'm going to have to really think deeply on this one.

 

It's get outside every day. That seems so simple, even though it's not really simple in practicality. But one thing I've learned through rest and through time outdoors is that 10 minutes matters. Like if you think I don't have time for this, but you have a 10 minute slot, go for a walk and see how God just communes with your spirit. Even in the dead of winter, if you live somewhere cold, like if it's safe to do so. For me, I had to buy like the best pair of snow pants I could find because I used to really dislike the winter. And I would just become like really down in those winter months.

 

And so, God just convinced me, don't go outside every single day if it's for 10 minutes. And then pretty often he just extends that. Like I think I'm going out for 10 minutes. And sure enough, I'm like playing with my kids outside. It's much longer.

 

But yeah, as best as you can, just prioritize that. If you have to do it first thing in the morning to make sure it happens, go for a walk and watch the sunrise. And God is going to minister to your soul through his creation.

 

Laura Dugger: (56:35 - 56:54) Amen. Amen. That is so good.

 

And this conversation has been so rich. Eryn, it is just very clear you have filled up on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you have just poured out goodness and love and truth for all of us, all over all of us today. So, thank you for all that you shared. And thank you for being my guest.

 

Eryn Lynum: (56:55 - 57:03) Thank you. Thank you so much for that encouragement. That means a whole lot to me. So, thank you. And for the opportunity for a great conversation.

 

Laura Dugger: (57:03 - 1:03:10) I really enjoyed it. 

 

One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Better Together: Special Patreon Release with Jon and Jolene Rocke

Special Patreon Release: Better Together with Jon and Jolene Rocke

 

"What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." Mark 10:9 (KJV)

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. What are you so thankful you did in every season of marriage, from newlyweds to empty nesters that you see the pay off now in the present?
2. How has grace and forgiveness benefited your relationship?
3. What advice do you have for all of us married couples as we seek to grow as one, rather than grow parallel or even grow apart from one another?

 

Jon and Jolene Rocke are my local friends and my guests for today. They work side by side at Peoria Rescue ministries, and they have so many lovely gifts of leadership and hospitality and teaching, but the topic we are going to focus on today is marriage. From the first time we met, Mark and I adored them and appreciated their sweet bond with one another, and I'm so thrilled to introduce you to them today. Here's our chat:

 

Jon and Jolene both grew up in Christian homes and accepted Jesus as their Savior and Lord at the age of 15.  Jon is from Morton and Jolene from Elgin, IL. They met on a bus ride to a Youth Gathering in Minnesota.  They sat together and talked the whole way home about life, the Bible and God.  Jon played his guitar and sang John Denver songs and their match was made with “Sunshine on my Shoulders”.

 

They married at the age of 18 and had their first child, Janelle, at 19.  They left for Grace college in Winona Lake, Indiana with an 18 month old toddler in tow and had another baby girl born while in college named Jaime.  At graduation in 1984, they were accepted to Trinity Seminary to follow Jon’s desire to be a Professor of Theology, but became pregnant with their son, Jordan, which changed every plan and sent them back home to build up their finances.

 

They came back to Morton and worked in the Family Business and felt called to stay.  They raised their 3 children in Morton working in the business until God loosened their tent pegs and called them to Peoria Rescue Ministries in 2017. Jon is the Executive Director and Jolene is the Ministry Ambassador.  They are thankful to be working side-by-side in this new season of their marriage.

 

Jon and Jolene will celebrate their 44th wedding anniversary and have 3 married children and have 10 grandchildren. Their son Jordan and his wife Jessica live in Sandpoint, Idaho with their 3 Kids.  Their daughter Janelle and husband Ryan live in Kennesaw, Georgia with their 3 children.  And their daughter Jaime and her husband Jonathan live here in Morton with their 4 children.

 

Related Episodes from The Savvy Sauce:

5 Love Languages with Dr. Gary Chapman

Traveling with Your Family with Katie Mueller

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.

 

Five Love Languages

The 5 Love Languages of Teenagers

A Teen's Guide to the 5 Love Languages

 

Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and The Savvy Sauce Charities (and donate online here)

 

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:09)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 2:05) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. I want to say a huge thank you to today's sponsors for this episode, Chick-fil-A East Peoria and Savvy Sauce Charities.

 

Are you interested in a free college education for you or someone you know? Stay tuned for details coming later in this episode from today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. You can also visit their website today at https://www.chick-fil-a.com/locations/il/east-peoria.

 

If you've been with us long, you know this podcast is only one piece of our nonprofit, which is the Savvy Sauce Charities. Don't miss out on our other resources. We have questions and content to inspire you to have your own practical chats for intentional living.

 

And I also hope you don't miss out on the opportunity to financially support us through your tax-deductible donations. All this information can be found on our recently updated website, thesavvysauce.com.

 

Jon and Jolene Rocke are my local friends and my guests for today. They work side by side at Peoria Rescue Ministries, and they have so many lovely gifts of leadership and hospitality and teaching. But the topic we're going to focus on today is marriage. From the first time we met, Mark and I adored them so much and really appreciated their sweet bond with one another. And I'm so thrilled to get to introduce you to them today.

 

Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Jon and Jolene.

 

Jon Rocke: (2:05 - 2:06) We're so happy to be here, Laura. Thanks so much for having us.

 

Laura Dugger: (2:07 - 2:43) Well, it's truly my pleasure. And will the two of you just start by giving us a little background on how you came to know Christ as your personal Lord and Savior?

 

Jolene Rocke: (2:07 - 2:43) Yeah, I grew up in the Chicago area in a suburb and in a Christian home. So, I was very thankful to know about God. And I came to know Him as my personal Savior at 15. And so, then I really had a complete change. And from then on, I have just followed Him as close as I can. So very thankful for Jesus.

 

Jon Rocke: (2:44 - 2:59) Yeah, and I was actually 15 as well. Became overwhelmed with my sin at 15 and knew that I did not know Christ. And so, since then, a very imperfect following, but glad to be part of the family.

 

Laura Dugger: (3:00 - 3:15) Well, and that's awesome that both of you were 15 and never knew that piece of your story. But I'm assuming you were living in different places. So then how did the two of you meet and fall in love?

 

Jolene Rocke: (3:15 - 4:40) That is such a funny story. Because I, along with a friend of mine from Elgin, jumped on a Morton bus going to Morris, Minnesota. And they picked us up in Rockford. And we got on the bus, went to the same youth gathering for our church denomination. And on the way home from that weekend, we sat on the bus the whole way home and talked.

 

And Jon had what was so interesting to me, a study Bible. And I had never seen a study Bible in my life. And so, he showed me what an open Bible was with notes at the bottom. And because I came to Christ at 15 and started Bible study on my own with just a spiral notebook, a pen, and my Bible, I was fascinated by this Bible.

 

And I heard from Morton girls that he carried his Bible everywhere. So, he was kind of different than the rest of the guys. And I told them that's the kind of guy I was looking for. And then to top it all off, he had a guitar. And he sang John Denver songs to me. So, Sunshine on My Shoulders, I think, really made me happy.

 

Laura Dugger: (4:40 - 4:45) Just knowing your family music is such a big part of worship. Yeah. That's part of what wooed you, too.

 

Jon Rocke: (4:40 - 5:35) Yeah. Part of the crazy story is that it's a long trip. It's like a 12-hour trip. And so, we left Morton at like 5 in the morning. And so, I'm sleeping on the floor. And we picked these girls up. And I wake up, and I'm like, “Oh, an angel just got on the bus.” That's what I thought. And she was like, she didn't really have anything to do with me the whole weekend till the way home.

 

But we have a lot of fun with that story. And so that was the beginning. I think I sent flowers the next day. And we began, actually, a very long-distance, over-the-phone relationship, getting to know each other. And we actually went through, I think, the Book of Romans together over the course of, I guess, a year. And then got married. And we were pretty young.

 

Jolene Rocke: (5:36 - 6:47) Yeah. We met when Jon was just 16. And then two weeks after his 18th birthday, we got married. And I'm a year older. So, it was very young. But we are so thankful because we're going to celebrate 44 years of marriage here.

 

So, God knit us together, I think, through the fact that we were both really pursuing the Lord individually. And then we were so happy to find somebody like that. I thought I was headed to be a missionary in Africa at the time I met him. And he was, like, searching, too. But both all out pursuit of Christ. And so, I think that's what knit our hearts together. And it didn't hurt that he sent flowers the next day.

 

Laura Dugger: (6:47 - 7:15) It was a wise move. But I love it because the two of you have really grown up together. Totally. You've been meeting as teens. When you reflect back, what are you so thankful that you did in every season of marriage, from newlyweds to now empty nesters, that you're getting to see the payoff now in the present?

 

Jon Rocke: (6:49 - 8:10) Yeah, I think sometimes you are intentional. And we've tried to be intentional. But I think sometimes God brings circumstances into your life that sort of force something. So not only were we young when we got married, but nine months after we got married, yeah, we had Janelle, our oldest daughter.

 

And so, we had to realize we still needed time together. And we had a little baby. It began, I think, an intentional course for us to carve out time. So, you know, we put our kids to bed early. It was a big deal for us as parents that we had our time after they went to bed because we didn't get a whole lot of time.

 

And other little silly things, the kids didn't get to sit in between us at church. That was the rule. You can sit on either side of mom and dad, but you can't sit in between us. And so that was just, you know, again, a little thing that we did. And some things we had to learn. I'm more of a night person. Jolene's more of a morning person. Part of that, we had to learn at one point, you know, let's make sure we prioritize going to bed together. Just so, again, we had that time. So, there's been all sorts of different steps along the way that we've tried to prioritize each other.

 

Jolene Rocke: (8:10 - 9:01) So the two words that come to my mind with regard to that are compromise. You're two different people, and you're suddenly thrust together into a home situation. Well, that took compromise on both of our parts. So that's kind of sacrifice, too. That means he doesn't get to stay up until midnight if we want to go to bed together, and I'm going to have to push myself to stay up later just so that we can make a common bedtime.

 

So, compromise, and then I think the other major thing to me would be communication, because we didn't have a relationship before marriage where we were in the same town and could see each other all the time or go on dates. We didn't have that. So, we had letter writing. This is 43 years ago. So, we had letter writing daily.

 

Jon Rocke: (9:02 - 9:04) Some of us were daily. He was daily.

 

Jolene Rocke: (9:05 - 9:11) I wasn't quite as good at letter writing every day, but I was in college by now.

 

Jon Rocke: (9:11 - 9:13) You were still in high school. Now we know.

 

Jolene Rocke: (9:14 - 10:15) But I think the communication factor, that actually helped us because, yes, I realize face-to-face dating is a great thing, but to not be able to do that and have nothing but be able to write your day out, what happened during your day, you're learning to tell the other person what happened in your day, how you felt about that, what your dreams, your goals are. So, it started, to me and us, I think a great foundation of communication.

 

Laura Dugger: (10:15 - 10:30) And is it Song of Songs, I believe, 5:16, where part of it says, “This is my lover, this is my friend,” and that's what I'm hearing, is that you were really deepening your friendship in those early years and that from witnessing your lives, it seems that has only continued.

 

Jolene Rocke: (10:30 - 10:35) Yeah, exactly. We are so thankful. It's a very different story than most people, but we're so thankful.

 

Jon Rocke: (10:16 - 10:39) I think also, for us, it was Genesis 2 in the sense that you need to leave everything else and cleave together. We were young. It's hard to believe. When we look back, we think about our kids and our grandkids and would we want that for them, and yet I don't think we'd trade it for the world.

 

Laura Dugger: (10:40 - 10:52) I love that. And what encouragement do you have for others then who are also wanting to build a foundation of remaining connected and intimate in all the aspects of their own marriage?

 

Jon Rocke: (10:53 - 12:07) That's one of those things about being intentional. Matthew 19:6, where Christ repeats that adage from Genesis 2, that God created them male and female, they need to leave mother and father and cleave together, but then he adds this, “and no one should tear that apart.” And we often think about that, I think, as other people tearing that apart, and that's true.

 

But the same goes, we can tear ourselves apart if we're not going to make sure everything else, all other distractions, because they're going to continually come, right? And again, we had kids so early that I think we knew we had to carve that time out, because if we wouldn't have, I'm not sure how that would have worked. We would have been so consumed early. But career, we've just known that we've had to say, if we don't make sure that we're the priority, it's so easy to get lost in all the other things of life that are not bad. Kids are not bad, they're great. And your careers and your work, that's all good. But it can be the enemy of great in a marriage.

 

Jolene Rocke: (12:07 - 12:32) Yeah, we talked about the fact that this is how we started all those years ago. But a pursuit of God individually actually enhances a pursuit of God together. I'm still in the Word individually. Jon's still in the Word individually. But we also then read and pray together every night. So just this pursuit of God.

 

Jon Rocke: (12:32 - 13:06) But that wasn't something we did from day one either. I mean, that was a learned scenario where one time we were just kind of convicted of the fact that together we're not taking time to pray and read together. And so, then we just made that part of routine at night. So then again, that made us say we're going to go to bed together. Because if we didn't, then we didn't have that time. That opportunity to pray together and read together has just become a connection point that we wouldn't want to trade.

 

Laura Dugger: (13:07 - 13:55) I think that's encouraging in so many ways because you've grown into this. And I think for anyone just starting out, it's so helpful to see you didn't let excuses get in the way. It reminds me of a supervisor in college who said, “If you want something done, give it to a busy person.” And I think in a unique way with you two being launched into parenthood nine months after you were married, you didn't have the luxury of being frivolous with your time. And you chose intentionality. And it seems like God really has blessed that and honored it.

 

Jolene Rocke: (13:55 - 14:05) Yeah and continued it to this day. You're very right. We continue to be busy. And that's still the struggle to combat that with intentional time together. So definitely.

 

Jon Rocke: (13:55 - 14:31) You talk about seasons in our lives. So, I had to have a hip replacement. So, from like 23 till I had that at 50, I couldn't take long walks. But now we get to walk together, which is a huge privilege. And so, I always think about it. I'm not into exercise to exercise, but I'm into being together. And exercise is a thing we can do together. The other thing we did in our, I guess it was on our 25th. We got a tandem bike. And we love doing our tandem bike.

 

Jolene Rocke: (14:31 - 16:21) But he wanted a tandem bike right when we got married. And I kept saying, no, I didn't really want to sit on the back and have no control. And not be able to see when I thought I should break or when I wanted to turn.

 

So, this is something that I often encourage women that are moving into the emptiness season of life. I was driving to church alone. And the Lord really impressed on me that the extreme lavish amount of love that as a homemaker I gave to my children who were now gone, I needed to transfer that to my husband.

 

I've always loved Jon first and best. But I needed to take even the time commitment. What could I do to show Jon I loved him lavishly the way I tried to my children? So that was a time thing for me. And it was like get a tandem bike. So, I was willing then to get the tandem and sit in the back. And you really do; you're called the stoker. You really do work in the back. You don't just sit there. You work. But I no longer had the control of that. And I am learning to see butterflies land on corn stalks. And I actually love our tandem bike. But God had to grow me. And that was part of my several gifts to him in emptiness period that has helped us keep a strong marriage, I think.

 

Laura Dugger: (16:21 - 16:30) And isn't that interesting how there's a gift in it for you? Like you offer this sacrifice and yet he's teaching you new things.

 

Jon Rocke: (16:21 - 16:22) I love it, yeah.

 

Laura Dugger: (16:23 - 16:45) What would you two say is the biggest personality difference that you've recognized in your own marriage?

 

Jolene Rocke: (16:45 - 17:22) We just had a personality test yesterday. We have an executive team leadership at Peoria Rescue Ministries, and we had to do personality tests again. And that always is quite glaring to see how different we are. So, we're on two ends of the spectrum. But we can encourage any marriage that that can work and actually maybe be in your favor as long as you work hard at it. So, it just takes work and communication to say, you're very logical thinking, I'm very emotional, so how do we come together then in situations where I'm flustered and he's calm because he at times looks as if you don't care.

 

Jon Rocke: (17:22 - 17:53) Right, yeah, it can be that. You're highly relational. I'm definitely more process. And I think you're going to learn quickly, especially if you have kids, that all your kids are going to have different personalities. That's the weirdest thing, right? They all grew up in the same home and they're all just completely different. And so being able to help them understand kind of a little bit who they are and how that works has been a good thing that we're not the same.

 

Jolene Rocke: (17:53 - 20:01) God didn't make one good and one bad. He made all of us different, all in His image, to His glory. We all bring value to the family, and we both bring value to one another as helpmates because I'm able to sharpen Jon in areas that are blind spots for him. He's able to totally sharpen me and calm me in blind spots that are mine. So, I think in a marriage, it's just actually, it's been helpful. Differences are good.

 

Laura Dugger: (20:01 - 20:25) Oh, I love that. Differences are good. It sounds like God sanctified even your views of that. And so, getting really practical, when was a time when your differences were working against each other or caused conflict? And then how, through maturing and more time together, how do you celebrate and even lean into and appreciate those differences?

 

Jolene Rocke: (20:25 - 21:00) Well, one thing for sure is we had what we call our valley, where we learned that Psalm 23 wasn't just a funeral psalm, but it's a life psalm, and it's a way of life psalm. So, at that time, I had three family members pass away, and Jon had his family business go down. So, we watched our personalities within that in handling loss and grief. So, here's the optimist really down, and here's realist trying to be cheerleader and be up.

 

And so actually God did it, and we know without a doubt that God can work beyond personalities and bring you to a point where you can actually support one another well. But there again, it's got to be intentional. It's got to be me saying, we need to sit down now and have a meeting, talk about how you're feeling, whether you want to talk about feelings or not, because I need to know where you're at so that I can help you best.

 

Jon Rocke: (20:01 - 21:20) Yeah, and on a practical level during that time, I found myself not communicating some of what I thought was either scary or just the long drag of it. And so that was a potential way for us to disconnect because all of this is swirling from at least our livelihood standpoint, swirling in my head, and I'm not going to want to share that. And yet we realized we had to, but then those are not always easy things because Jolene, like most ladies, likes security as an important thing, right? Of just knowing what's going to happen.

 

In the end, it did make us really, again, Joe mentioned Psalm 23, and if he is our shepherd, what else could we want? We both had to end up clinging to that because our security was gone. Part of our sense of who we were, and particularly me in a family business for three generations, was gone. And so, we certainly had to make sure that our tendencies, like in communication, those kinds of things, we had to work through those during that time.

 

Laura Dugger: (21:21 - 21:30) Thank you for sharing that. I think that's very relatable to hear about the ups and the downs. And so, do you have any specific stories of a time when you were both in your strengths, and even though they were very different, they worked well together?

 

Jolene Rocke: (21:30 - 23:12) Yeah, I think that it's the learning what your strengths are that you may not know that God gives you at the time, and that's his grace. So, at the time, for all those years previous to the valley, Jon was the one that pushed me to communicate, and shutting down was not an option, which is what I wanted to do. So, I'd rather just not talk about it and go to bed. And he would push, push, push me to keep communicating, and that we would work through everything before the sun went down, as the Bible says.

 

Well, in the valley, it was Jon that was shutting down. And suddenly, you know, I had to be the one to push communication. So, this is something I heard on a sermon. A personality is not an excuse for sin. So that just means that I can't say, well, I'm not comfortable in conflict, so I'm not going to communicate and I'm going to shut down. No, you need to push yourself, ask the Lord for help, and go as his helpmate and say, you have to talk about it, you have to tell me, how are you doing? How are you feeling? So, I feel like it's just, it was such a beautiful valley when we look back now.

 

Laura Dugger: (23:12 - 23:25) Another previous guest had said she noticed when she was in the valley, that's when you're closest to the living water.

 

Jon Rocke: (23:13 - 24:41) Oh, absolutely. For sure. That's how creeks run, through valleys. Yeah. And I think our parenting, it was helpful for us to have both sides of our personality in parenting because I think we could address situations with our kids from different viewpoints and different ways to think about things, and those were helpful things as well.

 

But we also, during all sorts of the periods of time in our marriage, we had some little things that just reminded us. We had little words. So one was, you know, “we need to swim back.” So, you can often find yourself, because of a season of time or a season with your kids or whatever on the different islands, and we would just say, we got to swim back. And so that was one of our things that we did. And then we also had a, if we went too long, we just realized we weren't intentional about our intimacy of any kind. It was just basically, “Hey, you didn't kiss me today.” And we used to make that, “No, you didn't kiss me today.” And it was just a thing we tried to do to make sure that we had these little things that just kept us reminded. And so, they were really, they were kind of practical, just little code words for us that made a difference and got our minds back to where it needed to be.

 

Jolene Rocke: (24:41 - 24:50) Yeah, and in the busyness, that's easy to remember those little swing thoughts.

 

Laura Dugger: (24:50 - 30:17) Swim back. And now a brief message from our sponsor.

 

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Now, back to the show. What encouragement do you have for healthy communication and healthy conflict resolution in marriage?

 

Jon Rocke: (30:19 - 31:31) God's grace. It's going to have to take time. You have to find that time together. So, I think it's all about prioritizing that time. I don't necessarily like conflict, but I know in our marriage you can't avoid it. And so, we just had to work through it right away. And so, I would say don't let time simmer conflict because that usually never makes it better.

 

Certainly, there's a sense of if there's something that's really emotional and maybe you need some space. My problem is I often don't give Jolene that space and that's hard on her, it really is, and sometimes not fair. But in the same vein, for me it felt like I didn't care if I just said, “Well, go ahead and be angry or be whatever or be upset about this or just let's not deal with it.” And she was gracious in pressing in and doing that. But I think don't let time go, just deal with it.

 

Jolene Rocke: (31:32 - 33:26) And two, the encouragement I think of is that Jon and I tell each other everything, every little thing. And we are very aware of couples that don't. And when Jon was holding back for me in that valley time, I really noticed it and I felt pretty alone. So, if you're always telling each other everything, there should be no secrets. So that just means there might be conflict then. If you're going to tell each other everything, then there might be conflict and you need to be prepared for that.

 

But that's better than me not saying anything. I sometimes say it's like a teapot, you're simmering or you're spouting. What's the perfect in the middle balance? It's really important to not simmer because you will spout eventually and then that's a harder conflict than if you just kept talking, kept telling every little thing. And so, we do tell each other every little thing.

 

Laura Dugger: (33:26 - 33:40) Well, and to go with that metaphor, if you have a release valve where that hot air can escape, it sounds like your communication has been that where you can get the water temperature back to a healthy place in the relationship.

 

Jolene Rocke: (33:40 - 33:55) Yeah, yes. And that takes work. So, I mean, honestly, what encouragement? Don't give up. Just keep going because it's worth it.

 

Laura Dugger: (33:55 - 34:10) Well, and I'm thinking back. Okay, so you had three kids. They're somewhat close together and you were young. So those years when all of your children were in the home, even elementary school age, that timeframe, what did that look like for communication? How did you still make sure you connected every day?

 

Jon Rocke: (33:26 - 34:31) Well, then throw in, we went to college after we had kids, which was actually, again, just God's grace and gift to us that we were able to leave town, leave the family business for a while, didn't think we were going to be involved in family business, went out to Indiana, went to school, and we didn't have anybody else but ourselves. And so that, again, was just his gift to us as young. We went in 1980, so that was two years after we were married. So, we already had Janelle at that point, and then Jamie came along soon after. And so, I had school but had to work to support. Jolene had to work and she was mom to two little ones. And so, again, I think it was just those times of making sure that we said nothing else can get in the way of us. Again, another phrase that we just had was, you know, we can get through anything together and nothing apart.

 

Jolene Rocke: (34:32 - 35:21) And that's not a flippant statement for us. That means we're trying and we're going to find the intentional time, put them to bed early, and make sure on weekends we're connecting well. And that meant sometimes driving with our kids. We'd go on drives. But that's Jon and I being able to talk. And then if they're goofing off in the back seat, it's okay. It's just fine because we actually are having talk time. Drive time has always been great communication time for us.

 

Laura Dugger: (35:21 - 35:35) That's really helpful, I think, for parents in any season. And you're talking about God's grace. So how has grace, and even forgiveness, benefited your relationship?

 

Jolene Rocke: (35:35 - 35:40) It's everything to our relationship.

 

Jon Rocke: (35:22 - 37:12) It's the only thing in everything. The parable of the unjust steward in Matthew 18 and just this idea that if you catch the enormity of your sin, then you can forgive others. And so that has been, I think, an important part of what we do because I love that whole story. Peter is asking that question, “How many times do I have to forgive somebody?” And if you think about a marriage context, well, that's a great question because my guess is it's going to be thousands upon thousands of times for whatever little or big things they are. And he's kind of like loading up. I feel that he's getting ready to say, “I've already forgiven this person six times. So, is it seven? And then after that, there's no more?” And the whole point of that is, oh, you really want to keep numbers, Peter? Here's the numbers. You've been forgiven zillions. And so, what's the little trifle amount that you're not going to forgive? And so, I'm thankful that Jolene is gracious because she's had to forgive me and continues to. We're still learning in a new season of life where now we get to work together, which to me is a really great joy. But it's also a different reality where we have a lot of work talk. Well, that's great. And we love that. But that can't dominate everything either. And so that's another one of those things that we have to figure out how to carve out our time away from work. Even though we enjoy working together and it's really fun, it's a new thing. That can't get in the way of us either.

 

Jolene Rocke: (37:13 - 40:14) There's got to be grace on both parts that now as I look at him as a boss also. And my husband, you know, I need to give a lot of grace to realize he's working within a momentum around a team and a leadership. But then as he comes home, and I'm very fully aware now of what a hat change that means for a man. That means that he's taking off his hat now and becoming my husband at home. And so, it's grace on both sides as he sees me working even under him or with him as a team. But it's a lot of grace and forgiveness over the years because in the early years as you're raising children, there might be unmet expectations is something I wrote down because I feel like as I think back to this pursuer of God and who I married and I remember those early years thinking, well, wow, he's not leading in devotions in the family. And I'm kind of struggling to find, I need to, as the mom then, pick that up and make sure we're doing with the children some family devotions. Well, that can create controversy. It can be that I would be upset, but I needed to forgive him for the fact that he didn't mean to do that and abdicate that responsibility. He just didn't know. And so, there's so much about being graceful as a wife to say, okay, I understand. That wasn't maybe how you were raised, or you didn't see that modeled in the home. But this is what I would desire for our family. And so, you just keep working and you keep forgiving because we've been forgiven so much, as Jon said. So, we know that. And I think the other key thing then with forgiveness becomes no record keeping, just as love is in 1 Corinthians 13. It doesn't keep the record of wrongs. I don't need to sit around with my time and in my brain and think about how much I've forgiven Jon. I need to think about the fact that God's forgiven so much in me, and he has to forgive me all the time. So, you're on this equal footing with forgiveness rather than trying to harbor a record of wrongs.

 

Laura Dugger: (40:14 - 40:40) Well, and I think you bring up examples for how it works in our families as well with children. And so, it's clear you two have such a solid marriage and you also have a thriving relationship with your adult children and your grandchildren and all their families. So, I think you just have a lot that you could teach us about raising a family as well. What are you so thankful that you did when your kids were living at home that you're now getting to see the payoff as they're adults?

 

Jon Rocke: (40:16 - 41:43) We literally grew up with our kids. So sorry for our kids that they had to, you know, grow up with their mom and dad. But that's been a lot of fun too because we did a lot of play. Again, these are just little things for us, these little words. So, as the kids were young, we used to, something that bothered them is I would tell them pretty plainly that I love mom most. And so, kids will always try to drive a wedge between mom and dad. That's just part of the fallen nature of kids. And so, we really communicated early. Our kids will tell you that was a hard lesson for them to learn that they didn't quite understand at that age, right? But they've really come to appreciate that in their own marriages. And then the other thing that we said was we choose you second. So, they knew we choose each other first because you're going to be gone someday and mom's not. And so, but we will always choose you second. So, friends were not a higher priority or social or hobby or anything. You know, the kids were always knew they were second. And so our kids are scattered all across, although we have Jamie and Jonathan here, one family here in Morton that we love to live life with. The others are gone, but I think we're still close in a lot of ways from that.

 

Jolene Rocke: (41:45 - 45:27) Yeah, I think we're a close family because we have stuck together through not just the ups, but the downs, but we're fun loving. Jon and I like games. We like to do stuff, and we like to go places. We prioritized vacation when they were little so that we were all together in an intentional environment that was away from home. And so, we were together, they enjoyed going to Florida every year and it was always what we called just happenstances that were so adverse. It wasn't your ideal. And so, we did not have ideal things happen on any trip, actually, that we go on. So, what we decided to call them is adventures. So, we intentionally took adverse situations, whether that's a flat tire, going to Florida with all the kids and it's the middle of the night and we're all sitting at a gas station on the curb waiting for the next tire to get fixed. It's just, we just always called them adventures and I'm not sorry for that. That's something our kids are passing on to their kids when things happen. Our son in particular, Jordan, his family seems to have a lot of adventures, like Jon and I have had. And that's what they call them to their children. So, I'm not sorry for the word adventure. Jon taught me a saying that he used to say, you love your children, even if you don't like them or you will lose them. And that was really important in the teenage years. When one of our children was struggling in junior high, I knew even if I didn't like the way this one was acting, I needed to just keep loving them as scripture says, right? Not if they're perfect, but all the time. And so, we didn't lose her through that time, I think because there was so much intentional loving beyond the liking. The other thing that I would just mention with that to encourage any, any mom or dad, I picked up the book, The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman and had this daughter read it with me so that we can learn, how do we love each other? Well, through this time when it feels like we don't really like each other that well. So, well, wow. I had no idea. It was physical touch for you. And I, I thought it was the acts of service. And you would notice that I picked up your room because I knew you had a hard day in a test at school. Well, there was never any knowledge or awareness that I did that for her. But whenever I put my arms around her and gave her a giant hug and wouldn't let her go until she melted in my arms, I realized, yes, that's what she, that's how I can love her best.

 

Laura Dugger: (45:27 - 45:50) That is awesome to hear that story. It is helpful to have actionable things that we can replicate. And so, I am going to link in the show notes to a few of our episodes that may be beneficial. If people want to take that concept a step further, Dr. Gary Chapman has been a previous guest. I'll link to those. And then also Katie Mueller talked about traveling with your family and the lessons that the Lord teaches his children about traveling in the Bible and how that applies to us. That's great. So, if you're willing, will you share anything more about the honeymoon? I'm so curious now.

 

Jon Rocke: (45:27 - 46:35) We will. I feel like we're taking too much time here.

 

Jolene Rocke: (46:35 - 46:36) I don't know, but well, we knew that this was setting the tone for marriage as far as adventures.

 

Jon Rocke: (46:36 - 46:37) But well, the very first off we, we got on a plane. So, we got married on a Sunday and we were flying out down to Florida on Sunday night. We got to Atlanta where we were supposed to connect to another plane. We were supposed to go to Fort Myers, Florida and there had been a storm and, and they were rushing to get us on the right flights or to get us to the next flight. And they put us on the wrong plane. You know, this was back in the day where that could happen. Couldn't happen today, but put us on the wrong plane. We ended up in Melbourne, Florida at midnight last flight of the night. You know, we're newlyweds. We're supposed to be, you know, on our honeymoon. They put us up at a Holiday Inn Express with the crew and said, you know, we'll get you out a flight. You have to be up at 4 a.m. And so, you know, I was, our first night was not necessarily what you would, you know, call the most romantic night that we could have. And then do you want to tell the second story of our honeymoon?

 

Jolene Rocke: (46:36 - 46:37) The canoe trip.

 

Jon Rocke: (46:37 - 46:37) Yeah.

 

Jolene Rocke: (46:37 - 47:28) The canoe trip is, I have such bad allergies to many things. And so, Jon knew that because we tried to go horseback riding and I thought I'd be okay because it was outdoors, but the dander on the horse made me just blow up into a big ball on my face. And so, he realized how much I have a problem with allergies, but we decided to go canoeing in a very narrow mangrove swamp. That was really depleted in, in its depth that day. And so, we were canoeing along, but we, we got into the side of the mangrove trees and out came a Hornets, Hornets out of this giant nest and stung me all over my back.

 

Jon Rocke: (47:28 - 47:50) And so Jon went into, I'm like thinking that my six day, you know, marriage is over. My wife, who's so allergic, we're half hour out on our journey and I'm, she's like going to die on the spot. Cause I figured if she's so allergic to animals, then this many, you know, bee stings or wasp stings, she's, you know, she's dead.

 

Jolene Rocke: (47:52 - 48:12) So he jumps, jumps out. Yeah. First, the truth is he took my top off and started taking mud from the bottom of the creek and, just plasters me with mud on my back. And then he jumps out of the canoe and starts running the, the canoe. Cause it was pretty shallow.

 

Jon Rocke: (48:12 - 48:31) I decided it was going to be quicker to get her back in time. I figured I had about 30 minutes, you know, to, to try to get her to some medical attention. And so, yeah, so I'm running the canoe back instead of paddling it. Cause I knew I could get faster. Well, then I cut my foot on a shoal and we're a mess.

 

Jolene Rocke: (48:31 - 48:37) I mean, he had it. What? Like six-inch stitches. So, we ended up in the ER here.

 

Jon Rocke: (48:37 - 48:38) Yeah.

 

Jolene Rocke: (48:38 - 48:52) Both of us with me, with stings, Jon, with a cut. And, and that was just the start of the honeymoon that we called a giant adventure adventure since it wasn't great.

 

Jon Rocke: (48:52 - 48:55) It's been a 44-year adventure.

 

Laura Dugger: (48:55 - 49:15) You did start with quite the adventure. I love that. And I think the husbands’ listening will appreciate, of course you took their top off first.

 

Jon Rocke: (49:03 - 49:04) That's right.

 

Jolene Rocke: (49:05 - 49:07) It was a little embarrassing.

 

Jon Rocke: (49:08 - 49:10) It was a good thing. Nobody else.

 

Jolene Rocke: (49:10 - 49:15) Nobody else.

 

Laura Dugger: (49:15 - 49:25) Sorry. I had to tease on that part, but through various seasons, how did you prioritize one another above your kids, your career and your own families of origin?

 

Jon Rocke: (49:25 - 50:35) We just knew we had to have time. So, a couple of things. I mean, we had a fortunate built in mechanism too, to take trips together. So, within our family business, we had conferences and such that we had to attend. And so, we made that a priority that we were going to do those together. I wasn't going to just go by myself. And so, a couple of times a year, and now that we're working together, it can feel like life blurs between everything. So, while we're at home, we're still talking about work and we're still dealing with ministry. And the other thing is with our kids away, a lot of our trip time is spent with our kids. So, we have to make that, that's gotta be a priority, but we realized we still need just our time away. and when we got, we went down to Florida and we just said, okay, no work talk for these five days, you know, no work talk. And it was pretty fun because most of the time Jolene broke that rule. And I would say, wait a minute, no work talk.

 

Jolene Rocke: (50:36 - 50:36) It's true.

 

Jon Rocke: (50:37 - 51:09) It's very true. But those, so trips were a big thing for us, and they don't have to be a big deal trip, but a weekend away to break the routine. You know, the example of that was, that's why God created festivals and holidays were to break routine and to have a stop in our everyday lives. And so, he knew we needed that to reconnect with him. Well, we know we need that in our marriages is to break the routine.

 

Jolene Rocke: (51:10 - 52:17) Very intentionally. Jon was wise enough to know we needed that as even as young as he was. Can you imagine the volumes of love that that spoke to me, that he wanted me to go with him on the trips. So that meant so much to me. And it still does today because he always wants me to go with him. And then I, I just have over the years, like when the kids were at home, that was days of rest for me when he was in meetings. But as I started growing too, as a person and not needing as much rest, I also would go into all the meetings because I liked the learning. But even as we went through college, like I just was always a part of the learning. And, and I liked that, but Jon included me. That said a lot to me.

 

Laura Dugger: (52:18 - 52:25) And I love your companionship, how you prioritize that. What advice do you have for all of us married couples as we seek to grow as one rather than start to grow parallel or even worse, start to grow apart from one another?

 

Jon Rocke: (52:18 - 52:47) Yeah, I think find things to do together. That's part of how even the biking, the tandem thing came about. Cause if we went out on bikes on our individual bikes, then I'm like, I'm wanting to run ahead. Well, you know, and then, and she's like, you know, you're not getting very much exercise or whatever the case may be. But then on a tandem, we could accomplish everything together. And so, finding some of those things.

 

Jolene Rocke: (52:47 - 54:56) So there's seasons of time when you're raising your children, like that, Jon was biking by himself and with some other men in a fast pace for extreme exercise. And I was doing my thing. And so, I'm not saying that hobbies apart from one another are negative, but for us, they've been mostly together. And so that just means that even there was a period that yes, Jon would go out golfing, not in excess, but when our kids were around and little, I think I was communicating even in that, that you don't just go off golfing every Saturday and leave your wife with the kids on a Saturday because you now that's your day off work. No, it's, we never get a day off work. So, you need to kick in at home too. So, there was this balance, I think is a really good word for how do you, how do you do like even individual hobbies and exercise even, but then mostly we're always trying to figure out how we can do things together. So, taking a back seat, literally on a tandem bike and knowing that that was going to help our marriage to be together. I also said recently now in a decade ago, I will learn how to golf. And so that, that just meant, again, I have no, no interest that much in golfing. I thought I loved riding the car around and being outside, but now it's like, yes, I will learn to golf if that means that that's another hobby and a sport and an activity that we can do together. So, we started a Friday night golf time, just Jon and I, it's a date night of golf and Dairy Queen supper. We call it Dairy Queen supper because we just don't eat supper, but we eat Dairy Queen after we go. So there again, there's just like, what are, what can we do together? And we're still doing date nights because it's just, we actually are really good friends still.

 

Jon Rocke: (54:57 - 55:51) Well, I think like I say, every season has been different for us. There was a time where kids were intense and Joe was a phenomenal mom and, was totally engaged in that. And you're in your career phase too. And so, all those things are competing. Well, then we've come back in the last five years and now we work together. So that's a different whole different dynamic. And so that's why we needed, you know, yeah, we need a golf and Dairy Queen night because we just need to get away from the intensity of our work relationship, you know, and take that break on our tandems. We usually ride for breakfast. So, most things have to do with food. It's not about exercise. It's about how to eat. So that's kind of just part of what we do.

 

Laura Dugger: (55:51 - 56:19) I love it though. That's an interest for all people. It's something that we have to do multiple times a day. Well, what do you want to leave us with? Whether it's a challenge or scripture, it can be anything, but how would you like to wind down our time together today?

 

Jolene Rocke: (56:19 - 56:30) I'm going to just say to encourage everyone. Our marriage has taken compromise and it's taken communication and it pays off in the end.

 

Jon Rocke: (56:19 - 57:11) You know, Ephesians 5 is really an important understanding that it's submitting to each other. The idea of wives submit to your husband, you're not catching the whole picture of that. If that's what your focus is, because it's husband loves you, love your wives as Christ loved the church. And so, and it starts the whole section off with submit to one another. And so, we have to be just intentional and committed. One of my favorite sayings is from Augustine, who says, when he was in prayer one time says to God, “Command what you will, but give what you command.” And so, when I think about our marriage, that's what grace is all about. Yes, it takes intentionality and commitment, but that only comes by his grace.

 

Jolene Rocke: (57:11 - 57:55) And one other thing that I thought of is that we always taught our kids to remember whose they are. And that just means that if you do that within a marriage too, and you're remembering that you're the Lord's, you're made in his image, then you relate and you will love the other one better. Even as you know your identity in Christ first, you will love your mate better.

 

Laura Dugger: (57:55 - 58:05) Amen. And you too may know we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for both of you today, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Jon Rocke: (57:56 - 58:07) You know, I just say submission is a good thing. It's not associated that way, but in a marriage it's such a good thing.

 

Jolene Rocke: (58:08 - 59:13) So that's both submitting to each other, not just the wife being clamped down. But our savvy sauce would be that sacrifice and submission are good things. They're not bad words. So, in our experience, a savvy sauce for our 44-year-old marriage is that sacrifice and submission have been very good things on both of our parts.

 

Laura Dugger: (59:13 - 59:20) Well, you clearly live this out, and you've been great role models to Mark and to me and our family. You love one another with such an intensity, and you love your Lord that way, and you love your children that way in your community. And I just see the way that He's had this ripple out from being intentional in the most key important parts of life, and that He's really blessed you in that, but He's also blessed all of us around you. So, thank you for sharing your journey with us. Thank you so much for being my guest.

 

Jolene Rocke: (59:20 - 59:22) It's been so great to be here with you. Thanks for asking, Laura.

 

Jon Rocke: (59:13 - 59:27) Yeah, it's been a privilege for us just to take the time to reflect again and realize the challenges, but really just celebrate what God has done through His grace in us and our marriage. So, thanks.

 

Laura Dugger: (59:27 - 1:03:10) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Excel in Social Skills and Etiquette and Teach your Children to do the Same with Monica Irvine (Episode 281)

281. Excel in Social Skills and Etiquette and Teach Your Children To Do The Same with Monica Irvine

 

Proverbs 20:11 NIV “Even small children are known by their actions, so is their conduct really pure and upright?”

 

Ephesians 4:32a AMP “Be kind and helpful to one another,”

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Monica Irvine, President and creator of The Etiquette Factory, LLC, is a master motivator and dedicated instructor who loves to help children and adults see the benefits and rewards of having proper etiquette, mastering professionalism and excelling in social skills. As a Certified Etiquette Instructor and working in the hospitality industry for 24 years, Mrs. Irvine specializes in etiquette and professional instruction to help ensure the success of each individual both personally and professionally.

 

Mrs. Irvine is the published author of three books on Etiquette and one book on Scheduling including: Etiquette for Beginners, Etiquette Intermediate, Etiquette Masters and A Schedule Makes for a Happy Family, in addition to authoring several monthly columns in national publications such as Everything Knoxville, The Homeschool Handbook and the Homeschool Magazine.

 

Mrs. Irvine is a national speaker, speaking to thousands of parents, educators and children every year.

 

Residing in Knoxville, TN with her husband, Mrs. Irvine spends her free time playing tennis, running and enjoying her family of three boys and a granddaughter.

 

You may contact Mrs. Irvine at monica@TheEtiquetteFactory.com  or via her website at www.TheEtiquetteFactory.com.

Rise Up Parenting

FUNdamentals 4 Kids

Life Skills Essentials

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka

 

Questions and Topics We Cover:

1. What are some red flags we can identify in our lives if we are too busy and what wisdom do you recommend instead of our overstuffed schedules?
2. As parents, why must we proactively teach these qualities to our children, rather than just instruct them in a moment of correction?
3. Will you share stories of ways the Holy Spirit has nudged you to use etiquette and it resulted in something miraculous? 

 

Other Savvy Sauce Episode Mentioned:

Unexpected Grief and What Helped Me Through It Can Help You Too with Singer and Blogger, Brittany Price Brooker

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:10)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 2:19) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka. Owned and operated by the Burchie family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at LemanGM.com.

 

My guest for today is the charming Monica Irvine. She is president and creator of The Etiquette Factory. She's a master motivator and dedicated instructor who just loves helping children and adults to see the benefits and rewards of having proper etiquette. She also loves to help people master professionalism and excel in social skills.

 

So, she's going to give us insight into all of these ideas and share stories today for ways that we can actually seek the Lord and love others well and value people through the proper use of etiquette.

 

Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Monica.

 

Monica Irvine: (2:19 - 2:20) Thank you. Thanks for having me, Laura.

 

Laura Dugger: (2:20 - 5:41) Well, I'm so excited to get a chat with you today, but let's just begin here. I'm so fascinated because you were born and raised in the South. Is that right?

 

Monica Irvine: Well, yes, Tennessee. Absolutely consider myself Southern.

 

Laura Dugger: I love it. And I grew up in the Midwest and got to live in the South for a few years. And I was very struck by the difference in manners. And I'm just curious if manners and etiquette were intentionally taught to you, both in your family and then just kind of in your Southern culture around you.

 

Monica Irvine: (2:20 - 5:32) Well, yes. So, when I think about being raised in the South, I think and maybe my mom and my grandmas were a little different. But what I would describe my upbringing is very particular, meaning everything was made special.

 

And my parents and my grandparents took a lot of pride in making things beautiful and lovely. And so, of course, my mom cooked every night. But like at my home growing up and we did not have a lot of money, just know that my parents struggled.

 

But my mother would never put a ketchup bottle on the table or a mayonnaise jar. Everything had to be put in little bowls with little spoons. And it's funny because my friends that I have today, I get given little spoons for birthdays and occasions because my friends all know how much I love little dainty things.

 

But, you know, and some people, you know, might think that's a little ridiculous. But I'll tell you something. I don't know that we need to eat that way every night, seven nights a week.

 

But it made dinner time feel special. And even the way my mother and my grandmothers kept their house, everything had its place. It was not messy.

 

We had clean homes. And I think it also just helped me be proud of my home. I mean, once again, we did not have a lot of money, but my friends thought my home was so nice.

 

Well, the reason it was so nice is because my mother kept such care of it. And so, I was raised with a lot of cousins and live close to both of my grandparents. And so even the outside of their homes, both sets of grandparents, everything was beautiful.

 

And so there was a lot of pride in who we are, how we presented ourselves. But you're going to laugh at this. So, my mom, my dad tells me this story that right after my mom and dad got married, my dad came home from work one day and my mom was ironing.

 

You know, she'd spend a whole day ironing every week or half a day. And my mom was ironing my dad's underwear. And my mom's name is Janice.

 

And he was like, “Janice, honey, what are you doing?” And “I know just ironing, Bob.” And he's like, “Babe, you don't need to iron my underwear.”

 

But, you know, the thing is, that to my mother and my grandmothers being a good wife and being a good mother meant making sure everyone in the family looked nice, that their clothes were clean, that the home was clean, that there was good food on the table. And that was part of their identity, of this is what it means to be a good wife and mother. And I love that about my upbringing.

 

Laura Dugger: (5:33 - 5:41) And do you have any reasons why you think that's changed a little bit over the years?

 

Monica Irvine: (5:42 - 8:34) Yeah, I think we've gotten lazy. Well, no, I just I think there you know, there's balance, right? There's when I look back, I can't really remember my mom playing with me.

 

But now, listen, I don't feel like I missed out, but I do recognize it. But I guess even as a little girl, sure, I would have loved my mom to play with me. But that's just not in my mind what moms did.

 

Moms cleaned house and made everything and cooked your meal. And so, I do. I'm grateful that as a society, we have adjusted somewhat.

 

Sometimes I believe too much but have adjusted in going. What's the most important things? And because I'm a big believer in playing with our children and our grandchildren and creating memories.

 

But now my family, my parents and we worked a lot together. Like if we were if the yard needed raking, it wasn't kids go rake the yard. Mom, dad, kids were in the yard raking.

 

If a car needed to be washed, it wasn't go wash the car. We were all out there washing the car. So, I think that's why I don't feel like I missed out because my family did so many things together.

 

Whereas today we're so separated. No parents give their children and babies phones and iPads so they'll just be quiet so they can get their important work done. Like grocery shopping or cooking.

 

And I just think that instead of teaching our children how to self-soothe and self-entertain and how to creatively play even by yourself, sometimes we just always believe there has to be a babysitter to distract our children from wanting mom and dad. It's just I you know, this could be a whole other talk, Laura, but I just you know, I see it. It breaks my heart sometimes on the lack of how often families work together, play together and do things together.

 

But now, you know, dad's watching his game in this room. Mom is in another room, maybe on her computer doing social media. The kids are in their rooms on their games.

 

And I see a lack of family unity. So once again, even though maybe my mom and dad didn't play with us and I'm glad we've shifted with that thought process. Still, we were a united family.

 

Laura Dugger: (8:35 - 8:56) I love that. And the Lord has clearly given you a passion for that instilling that in others. And He invited you into a journey that eventually led to The Etiquette Factory, which is the work that you get to do today.

 

So, can you share the impetus for that and what that journey looked like for you?

 

Monica Irvine: (8:56 - 13:54) I will. I love my company. I feel like it's just yet another beautiful adventure the Lord has allowed me to be on in my life.

 

And so, I feel like I'm just outside looking in at this beautiful little business that has allowed me to minister to children and adults in need. So, years ago, I was homeschooling our kids. I was homeschooling our youngest son at the time, and we were studying the life of President George Washington.

 

And I just kind of stumbled upon this list. It was called George Washington's Rules of Civility and Decent Behavior. It is a beautiful list of 110 chivalry skills.

 

And apparently, President Washington was encouraged to focus on some chivalry as was part of a formal education in those days. He found a French book that had these list of chivalry kind of considerations, and he copied them. He hand copied them, of course.

 

And we have that list of 110 chivalry skills in President Washington's handwriting. But as I started reading over this list, the Lord penetrated my heart. I just I was like, these are so beautiful.

 

I mean, some of them were kind of funny. Some of them were. It's not polite to remove lice from your companion in public, which I think is good to know.

 

But most of the beautiful chivalry skills were very applicable to today. And I was like I want my son to memorize these skills. So, we started memorizing one Washington skill a week.

 

And because they were written in that old English, you know, sometimes we were like, what does this mean? And it just I just decided for my son's sake, who was nine at the time, I wanted to just kind of make my own version. But what was so a light bulb moment for me is as we started making manners part of our daily discussion in school, I noticed a change in my child's behavior and my son would be like, “Mom, let's do another one. What's the next one? Let's do one more.”

 

And I found that so fascinating because, as you know, most of us parents, when we teach manners, we're teaching it in the moment, usually correcting bad behavior. It's not that that's our goal. It's just that that's when we think about it.

 

Our child says, or does something that's not the most polite, and all of a sudden we're going, “Oh, honey, no, honey, you can't say that. That's not polite.” And then we make the correction and then we teach the skill.

 

And what I learned and realized is that so often that's when I was teaching my children manners in the moment of correcting. And what I've learned about that is when we're being corrected, whether you're three years old or 30 years old, we harden our heart typically because it's self-preservation. You know, we stiffen up when someone's like, “Monica, you really shouldn't have.” I'm like, whoa.

 

And it's just because of our own pride. We don't like being called out and neither do our children, even when we're doing it gently and politely. It's still a correction.

 

And so, what I found is when our heart is hardened, as the scripture says, it's not the best time to absorb information. It's the opposite of being humble. To be humble means to be teachable.

 

To be hardened means to not be teachable. So, when we have a hardened heart, it's hard for us to absorb things of the spirit, which all truth comes from God. So, anything that is lovely of good rapport is of God.

 

So, when we're teaching our children to be kind and to have kind considerations for others, those are God's truths and God's truths cannot seep into the soul of our heart unless our heart is soft. And so that is what happened is I was like, today we're going to learn how to use our napkin properly. Or today we're going to learn how to apologize.

 

But how do you make it sound sincere and how do you be sincere when you don't really feel it? And so, as we started just working on one skill at a time, the conversations were typically beautiful. Parts were changed and behavior ended up changing.

 

And so really, that's what then later became The Etiquette Factory.

 

Laura Dugger: (13:55 - 14:20) I love that because I think it gives our children confidence because then they're equipped and prepared and understand what's expected of them in different situations or what can bless others in the way they act. But then I'm curious, you gave a few examples of those. Can you think of any of George Washington's chivalry lines that would still apply today?

 

Monica Irvine: (14:21 - 19:07) Yes, well, so I'm not quoting, I'm summarizing. So, for instance, one is it is not polite to hum or sing in the presence of others that would cause distraction. And so basically it's not polite to draw attention to ourselves but also draw attention or interrupt other people's day life when we haven't been invited to do so.

 

So let me give you this definition we use for etiquette. So, at The Etiquette Factory, etiquette is helping those around us to feel valued and to feel comfortable. Well, if I'm sitting there humming along, but the person beside me really doesn't want to hear my humming, then I might be causing that person to feel uncomfortable.

 

Same thing, you know, whenever I start off teaching a class, because usually when everyone thinks of manners, they think of table manners. Of course, there's so much more. But I use this example.

 

I say, well, if I were to come to your home and sit down and I started eating like a pig in the presence of your family, I mean, I'm chewing with my mouth open. I'm making a smacking my lips. I'm taking too big of bites and food is falling in my lap or I'm making a mess on the table.

 

Or I eat so fast that I am finished eating, getting up to leave. And you're just on your third bite of food. Well, any of those behaviors, I would be sending a message.

 

And that message is, look, I'm here for one person and that person is myself. I came to fill up my belly because I'm hungry. And beyond that, I really don't care.

 

I don't care if I'm making you uncomfortable. I don't care if I'm grossing you out. I don't care if you actually wanted to talk to me because I just came here to eat and I'm out of here.

 

You see, we don't realize it, but a lack of chivalry is called selfishness. A lack of chivalry is inward focused. When we focus outwardly on what message am I sending to those around me?

 

Am I sending a message of love and care and value? That is etiquette. I get emailed all the time and message like, “OK, Monica, I've got this shower I'm putting on.

 

And my daughter is not going to invite her work friends to the wedding. But is it OK if we invite all of them to a wedding shower?” And they'll go, so what's the etiquette rule?

 

Well, there is no etiquette rule about that, except etiquette is about helping those around us to feel valued. And so that's how I answer every question. I'm like, well, let me ask you if you were invited to a wedding shower, where you're asking her friends to shower your daughter with gifts and love to celebrate her wedding.

 

But yet those friends were not valued enough to invite to the wedding. How do you think it would make them feel? And so that's what the answer is with etiquette.

 

Now, there's exceptions. In fact, that case, that's a real email I got. And she ended up having the shower because her daughter went and told her co-worker who offered to give her a wedding shower.

 

“You know what? I thought that is so thoughtful. I'm so grateful that you were willing to do that. But we're having a very small, intimate wedding, you know, for financial reasons and intimacy reasons. And so, I just don't feel comfortable inviting people to bring gifts for me and knowing that we're just we're not going to be able to invite everyone to the wedding.”

 

And that co-worker said, “We don't care. We knew you were having a small wedding. We want to celebrate you.”

 

And so, you know, you can there be exceptions, but a lady and a gentleman always try to be very aware of those unspoken messages. And that guides our conversation, our answers, our actions. And that's what we teach children and adults to do at The Etiquette Factory.

 

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I loved, this was a few months back, but we came to a homeschool convention, and I loved your talk on purposeful parenting. One thing that you said, just I think backing it up and looking at our family in general, you said, “If we're too busy to do the most important things, we're too busy. Stop allowing the adversary to tempt us to remain too busy.”

 

So, Monica, what wisdom can you share for maybe red flags that can help us identify when we're too busy to focus on the most important things, and what do you recommend instead of overstuffing our schedules and our lives?

 

Monica Irvine: (21:18 - 26:23) You know, that's a great question. Those are good questions that every family should ask themselves. You know, I think that if we are to strive to focus on the most important things, step number one is, has mom and dad identified the most important things?

 

Because if you don't know what your goal is, then you're not going to as easily recognize when something is interfering with your goal. So, for instance, maybe mom and dad sits down and says, “Well, our number one goal is to make sure that our children know Jesus Christ. And so, what do we need to do to make sure that we're doing our best to help our children know who He is?”

 

Well, and so a family might decide, well, we want to have daily scripture study and daily family and individual prayer. We want to make it a priority to be at church so that we can worship on the Sabbath, but also so that we can meet together with other like-minded Christians and minister to one another as we're taught by the Savior. That's important for us to do.

 

And perhaps we want to learn to do as the Savior does. And that's why we're going to learn of His attributes and try to follow in His footsteps and be a family of service. So, let's just say those are our four of the most important things.

 

If that's our goal, then hopefully mom and dad could recognize when we're starting to stumble off the path that leads to our goal. For instance, I can't tell you how many parents have come up to me after they hear me speak on this topic and say, “Monica, I wish I had heard you say this 10 years ago. But we got sucked up into the what the world has to offer, and we started allowing our children to play competitive sports on Sunday. And so, we stopped going to church years ago because there was always a championship game on Sunday morning and always another tournament. And we wanted our children to have, you know, college opportunities.”

 

And there's nothing wrong with college opportunities unless that college opportunity interferes with our most important goal. And so that's why first mom and dad have to decide what is the most important, because then it's easier to recognize when we are being tempted by the adversary to focus on what the world is trying to offer us.

 

And the world offers us shiny things that tempt our human nature to want to be popular and loved by all and wealthy. And so, we just have to always go back to our goals. You know, I've got families that say, “I wish we had eaten dinner together more often. But we allowed our children to be so scheduled that there was not one night or there was only one night a week that we actually sat down at the table together.”

 

You know, parents. You will regret that. And you can't take back these precious, very short years that you have your children under your roof in your home.

 

And you will be someone like me one day where all of my kids are graduating and grandchildren and all you live for is your children to come visit and your children to come have dinner. And so, when you allow the world to creep in and be more important than spending time with your family, time with the Lord, time on good and lovely things, you will regret it. And I just think that probably every year come January, mom and dad should sit down and go, let's look at last year.

 

What were we missing from our family schedule? What do we need to reevaluate whether that is the most important thing? And so that's something I think all of us have to do on a regular basis.

 

Laura Dugger: (26:24 - 27:20) I think you're hitting on something profound there, that reflection with the Lord or with our spouse. I think we have no excuse because if there is no spouse in the picture, we always have the Lord. But to be intentional, to take that time, maybe on a Sabbath and go through a few questions and reflect back.

 

I think that could save us from a lot of regret. So, I really appreciate that response. And going back to etiquette, then you've taught us that it is a learned behavior.

 

This isn't something that our children will just naturally pick up. It's best to do in times where their hearts are soft, so proactive if possible. But I'd love to know in your own life, when were times that the Holy Spirit nudged you to use etiquette and it resulted in something miraculous?

 

Monica Irvine: (27:21 - 32:56) Oh, goodness. Okay, well, to me, I think miraculous is seeing the Lord's divine hand in our life. I see the miracle of the Lord every day in my life.

 

But probably most often is when I kneel down at the end of a day, I repent daily because I need to daily. And it's always a little nervous because I pray and I ask the Lord, as sometimes I know what I need to repent of. I know that I recognized I stumbled that day on something, but sometimes I just I pray and I say, “Lord, you know, just help.”

 

If something needs to be brought to my mind that I need to repent of and that I need to do better, would you bring it to my mind at this time? And it wasn't that long ago that the Lord brought to my mind something that I had gotten in the habit of doing that I didn't feel like it was wrong, but it was wrong. And so, etiquette, one of the etiquette skills I teach everyone is that it's not polite for us to gossip.

 

A lady and a gentleman always draw attention to the lovely and wonderful things that other people do. Now, if there's a safety issue, that's different, but I'm just talking about we don't share negative things about other people. And so, it's something I teach every year, all year long.

 

But I feel like I've done so much better than I did twenty-five years ago when the Lord really chastised me one time for gossiping. But in the last couple of months, I had gotten in the habit of sharing with my husband. So sometimes, you know, when you share with your spouse that you kind of feel like that's a safe place that the same rules don't apply because you and your spouse kind of talk about everything.

 

And so, I was in the habit of sharing with my spouse something that I was worried about that another person in our family did. But I was constantly going, “Oh, I don't like that. They do this and I don't like that. They do this and I'm worried about it.” And I actually was worried about it. But I just was constantly kind of highlighting these things that I didn't like that someone in our family did.

 

Well, one night I was praying and asked the Lord to bring to my mind and the Lord brought that to my mind. And it was kind of like he said, “Monica, don't you remember that? If you're worried about someone. Instead of sharing those negative things, even with Charles, my husband, what would be more effective is if you prayed and asked me to bless that person, to help that person, you know, in the ways that they need help and ask me to help, you know, of ways that you could be a better example to that person. But you don't need to constantly draw attention because it's starting to make you be negative towards this person.”

 

And I just like right when the Lord said that to me, I was embarrassed. I was like, “Monica, that. Yeah. Like, how do you not know that? That you should know better than that.”

 

Well, so immediately I repented and I apologized to the Lord and I and I started doing what he asked me to do. And within just a couple of days, like I started just noticing all of the wonderful, lovely things that this person is and does. And so, just to me, that is miraculous and it happens all the time.

 

And if I'm humble enough to repent and to listen to the Lord, because the Lord wants to help us and he wants us to strive to be like him. But we've got to ask where we need to be corrected. And so, I teach etiquette, I teach we don't gossip.

 

And then lo and behold, I had kind of gotten myself in another trap again. You know, and I just I think it's a miracle what happens when we listen to the Lord. He immediately turns our mind to good, lovely, beautiful things and allows us to be a vessel of light instead of vessel of darkness.

 

And we can be that vessel of darkness just right inside our own marriage, even though we think that's kind of a safe place to maybe be a little looser with our tongue. So, there's one example.

 

Laura Dugger: (32:57 - 33:26) I love that. And I remember you also explaining whenever you get a thought in your head that you don't want to do, it's likely 100 percent from God. So, can you share a couple specific stories of times that that was the Holy Spirit telling you something that you didn't maybe want to do, but you obeyed?

 

I'm remembering something about a grocery store and another time separately about a phone call. Yeah.

 

Monica Irvine: (33:26 - 40:29) OK, well, I'll tell about the phone call just because it's less sad. So, yeah, one time there was this lady and she was just kind of investigating our church and starting to come to our church and kind of fill it out. So, I had just met her and I found out that her what led her to come looking for God is her husband was an addict and she was just at her wits end and their marriage and family was falling apart.

 

And so, she came looking for the for help for the Lord. And so, I learned a little bit about her story. I ended up taking her to one of those celebrate recovery places at another church because I knew they had a wonderful program.

 

And so, I had interacted with her a couple of times. I probably had only known her about a month when one night I was running late to take my kids to youth on Wednesday night and I was cooking some spaghetti and I was just, you know, cooking that spaghetti at the stove. And all of a sudden I had a thought come into my mind, “Call her.”

 

And, you know, I was like, oh, yeah, I do need to call her. I need to call and check on her. I will, you know, after church tonight.

 

And so, I, you know, kept cooking that spaghetti. And the second time the Spirit, because that's who it was talking to me, because that's who tells us to do good things. Not us, but God.

 

The Spirit said, “Monica, call her.” But I was running late and I was trying to get my kids fed and I was like, I will call her as soon as I get the kids fed, you know, drop them off at church and then I'll call her, you know, and so I really meant to call her. But I.

 

Finally, a third time, and it seems to always take me three times before I realize, OK, he means now. And so, a third time it was like “Monica call.” And so, it was so strong.

 

And I, I know it's the Lord, but I, I just turned the stove off. I went into my bedroom, got my phone out, dialed her number. And as it was ringing, she picked up the phone and all I heard was just some quiet sobbing.

 

And she couldn't speak. And I, you know, I said her name. I said, “Hey, so and so it's Monica. I just. I see that you're upset. I just wanted to call and check on you. In fact, the Lord insisted that I call and check on you.”

 

And then her, you know, her crying just continued. It wasn't until, you know, she had calmed down and she just said, you know, “Monica, I had been praying and just asking the Lord to just show me that, you know, show me that you care that this is happening to me.” Something like that.

 

And, you know, I, I, in that moment, my stomach kind of did that little knot because I knew how close I had come to just not calling. And sure, I could have called her an hour later. It would have been at least an hour later and maybe, you know, it would have mattered.

 

But the Lord knew that it mattered right in that moment. She needed an answer. She needed to know that the Lord was listening.

 

And I've learned that in my life, that whenever we get a thought that comes into our mind and that thought is to do something good, like calling someone, you all is a good thing. Visiting someone, writing a letter to someone. Those are good things.

 

And all good comes from the Lord. And sometimes I wonder, does the Lord trust me? Does he know I'll respond when the stakes are high?

 

You know, sometimes I think as we continue to learn how to hear the spirit, we have to practice. Oh, that was the spirit. And probably if you're like me, I've learned a lot about the spirit by not listening.

 

And then later going, “Oh, yeah, Lord, I did miss that. You tried. You tried to warn me, or you tried to get me to do that. And I dismissed it.”

 

But so, you all I just think it takes practice and I'm still practicing. But I do believe that especially when it's something that we don't really want to do or we think we don't have time. And I just realize I felt the Lord going, “Monica, do you not think I know you're cooking spaghetti? Do you not think I know you're running late? But right now, there's something more important I need you to do than to get your kids to church on time.”

 

And so, I think at some point we have to decide, do we trust Him or don't we? And if we trust Him, we have to trust Him completely. And that means when we receive a prompting that we will act quickly because the Lord knows what we're doing.

 

And He knows that we don't have the best relationship with that person. Yet you're feeling like you should call. He already knows that.

 

And it doesn't mean that everything's always going to turn out the way we think it will. Sometimes I think the Lord just wants us to know ourselves that we'll do what He asked us to do, regardless of how it will turn out. And sometimes I feel like the Lord has told me to do something and I did it and it didn't go well.

 

And I'm like, “Lord, like, why? Why?” And I know all of us, you all sit there and go, wait, was that my thought or was it God's thought?

 

And you know what I have learned is that just stop worrying about it. Just act in faith. And the Lord always backs up His people.

 

The Lord doesn't, as you and I are praying and striving to understand the Lord's will. And let's say we get an idea and so we act on it because we feel like it was a prompting and then it does not go well. I believe the Lord loves so much that you were trying to listen and be obedient and the blessings will come.

 

Sometimes we just don't know the timing or how, but we've just got to trust.

 

Laura Dugger: (40:29 - 43:59) I love that. And we never know what's happening on the other side of our obedience. And I'll link back to Brittany Price Brooker's episode because she was one who had lost her husband and was crying out to the Lord.

 

I think she was bathing her young children, and they didn't have food in the house and maybe they were sick. And the only thing that sounded good to their child was apples, but it was late at night. She couldn't go get them herself.

 

And she was just praying like, “Lord, do You see me? Do You know my needs? I need You to meet my needs.”

 

And right then the doorbell rings and somebody showed up and she said, “The Lord told me to buy you these apples and bring them to you.” And I think that highlights something else. You articulated it well when you say whenever you get that thought in your head that you something that you don't want to do, it's likely 100% from God.

 

I would say a lot of times too, it's also awkward or inconvenient. We don't know why. And then I think back to the Bible, Abraham was put in a very awkward situation with his son and Noah, that was very awkward to be building the boat when there wasn't rain.

 

But look at the blessing that comes on the other side of obedience. So, appreciate those stories are really helpful.

 

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So, at that same conference, when I heard you speak, you shared something that really stuck with me. This one was about our daughters. So, I want to talk about daughters first and then we'll move to sons.

 

But you mentioned there was this one study where over 3,000 men were surveyed. And they were asked, what's the number one quality that you desire in your wife? Either current wife or someday in the future when you're married.

 

And do you remember the response? Yeah, it was kindness. Kindness.

 

That she is kind. And so, I wondered, was there another side for the boys then too? What do you think women would say for their future or their current spouse?

 

What attribute do you think they would identify?

 

Monica Irvine: (44:00 - 47:35) It didn't have that for the other side, but a word that we don't use as much anymore. And I try to use it a lot is, I think most women, even if it wouldn't come to their mind immediately, once they heard it, they'd be like, oh, wait, no, yeah, that. And that is honorable.

 

They would want their husbands to be honorable. And to be honorable means that we do honorable things. And honorable things always 100 percent of the time require some level of sacrifice.

 

That's what makes them honorable when we sacrifice and give up our time, ourself in order to better someone else to help our country, our family, others. And so, I think today what we all want is for our spouses, husbands and wives to be kind and to live honorable lives. Those lives, it doesn't mean a perfect life, but to be honorable means we strive to have integrity.

 

We strive to be godly. We strive to do what we say we're going to do. We strive to live up to our divine nature as God called mothers and fathers and husbands.

 

And so, I would think to me that is the most important, because if you live an honorable life, then you honor God. You honor your marriage covenant. You honor your children by treating them and speaking to them with honor.

 

You honor your job. You make sure that you have integrity at work and that you're dependable. And the same goes for us women.

 

You know, but I think I think we all struggle with selfishness. I mean, that is ultimately what we struggle with every day is what do I want? What do I need?

 

What's important to me versus trying to live a selfless life for our spouse, for our family? Anyway, it would be interesting to do that survey, but I think what's so kind of funny about the kindness is that whenever I read that survey results that I had read years ago, when I say that to a crowd of women. And men, but when I say that to the crowd, you can always see I just see this rippling of women making this kind of gesture.

 

Or because they know that they could be more kind, because usually we can be kind to everyone in the world. But in the walls of our home, we struggle more with just kindness.

 

Laura Dugger: (47:37 - 48:00) And so if we go further upstream than before we're married, if that's what God has for us, what are practical ways that we can teach and instill kindness in our children and honorable character? Or any other practical tips for conduct?

 

Monica Irvine: (48:00 - 53:03) Yeah, well, I love when I do a workshop at a convention on a family of service, because honestly, when we have our children in our home, it's practice ground. We have once again a few years to help them learn to love the Lord and to love others. You know, the two great commandments, love me and love others.

 

Well, to me, the best way to teach our children to love God and love others is to get our children out and serving others. Because, as you know, typically, like, for instance, when someone calls us and says, “Oh, hey, Monica, hey, would you mind, you know, the Smith family, they just had their new baby. Do you think you could cook dinner for them one night next week?”

 

If you're like me, I'm going to say yes. And then I'm going to hang up. And then I'm going to have that anxiety because already my week is so full and I was already stressed out about how I was going to get all the things done I needed to get done.

 

And now I've just added another thing. And I'm not saying there are not times that we don't need to say no, because we absolutely have to say no sometimes. But my point is, I cook the dinner and I go drop it off.

 

And as I'm pulling, as we are pulling away from that home, how do we feel? Do we feel better or do we feel worse? Do we feel happy or do we feel sad?

 

Honestly, almost 100 percent of the time, y'all, we're going to feel happier. We're going to feel grateful. We're going to be grateful that we had the opportunity to cook that dinner for that sweet family.

 

We're going to be reminded of how sweet the Lord is to give us opportunities to be His hands and His feet and His mouth here on the earth. And so, we want our children to learn to love. To love others, but it takes practice.

 

It's not until you serve again and again and again that you start to realize that the secret to being happy, the secret to having peace in your life and love abounding in your home is when we lose ourselves in the service of others. It's the secret to fixing siblings arguing with each other. It's the secret to helping husbands and wives draw closer together and have more love for one another.

 

It's the secret to less contention overall, to more peace, to more joy and happiness is to lose ourselves in the service of others. And so, to me, if you want to raise if we want to raise honorable, kind, generous, compassionate, empathetic human beings, they've got to lose themselves. To find themselves and define God.

 

And so, yeah, I think that's the secret. And of course, Jesus Christ tried to teach us that over and over and over again. He tried to teach His disciples over and over again that if you love me.

 

Then love my sheep, feed my sheep, teach my sheep. And what's interesting is that you all. The more we do that, the more we serve and love others.

 

Do you know what I believe? I believe it's kind of like the Grinch. Remember when the Grinch's heart grew?

 

That's real. That's really what happens. The God expands our ability to love others.

 

And in doing that, it actually expands our deep love of God. I think it's so fascinating that that's the fruit of service is a deeper and abiding love of Jesus Christ. It seems like it would be the opposite, right?

 

Well, I've got to love Jesus more in order to have a greater desire to serve. But it's the opposite. He wants you to go serve when you don't really feel like it.

 

And he wants you to go serve when it's not convenient. And your kids are crying and no one wants to go rake her yard. And then the fruit of acting in faith and trusting God is the love.

 

Laura Dugger: (53:05 - 53:34) That's what I would do. That's so good. Such a good medicine or anecdote to selfishness and issues we're having in the home with our children and for ourselves.

 

Well, Monica, you have shared so much goodness with us throughout this conversation. Can you explain how you can help partner with us as parents to help us teach our children etiquette at neutral times? Like you said, when their hearts are softer?

 

Monica Irvine: (53:35 - 56:52) Yes. Yeah. So, we've got some awesome resources, parents.

 

And number one is we do have a parenting course called Rise Up Parenting. And it's just this beautiful 52-week course that you get lifetime access to in case it takes you three years to get through your 52 weeks. But it is a course for mom and dad, or mom, or dad by themselves.

 

But it's just a beautiful way to help parents focus on one parenting skill a week. I've learned that when we have purposeful parenting, when we focus on one improvement at a time because we can get so overwhelmed, like we want we want to teach our kids to be selfless and that be ambitious and to serve and share. And I mean, it's just, it's endless.

 

But the Lord is a house of order. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a house of order. And so as long as we're going in the right direction, y'all, we are successful.

 

And so, this parenting course teaches a biblical principle and then a parenting principle that are related and allows you to just make little increment steps of improvement. Because when mom and dad improve, it blesses your children. So that's the first resource.

 

And then the other two most popular resources is we just have two programs. We have a program called FUNdamentals4Kids that targets children preschool through about third grade. And it's so fun.

 

It's just these wonderful, fun board games, flashcards, songs, stories, crafts, where we try to encourage you to twice a week set aside 15 minutes of your school day for an official manners activity and watch what happens. So, we've organized it for you. And for the little kids, we found out that if they can play with it, sing about it, make some food with it, that it helps them to go, “Mom, let's do a manners lesson.”

 

And then they don't even know that they're being taught these beautiful, wonderful skills. So that is so wonderful. And then for kids about fourth grade through 12th grade, we have a course called Life Skills for You.

 

And it's just so fun and it's so effective. Basically, it's 142 little three-minute lessons. We once again just try to get you to commit to twice a week sitting down with your family, watching a three-minute lesson where I'm teaching the etiquette skill.

 

Plus, we show teenagers doing the skill the wrong way and the right way. So, it's kind of funny, but it just creates some really great conversation with the family. And so those are our top three selling product lines.

 

And you can find all of that on our website, theetiquettefactory.com.

 

Laura Dugger: (56:53 - 57:15) Thank you for sharing. We will certainly link to all of that in the show notes for today's episode. And Monica, you may be familiar that we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge.

 

And so, this is my final question for you today. What is your savvy sauce? Yeah.

 

Oh, that's a hard one.

 

Monica Irvine: (57:15 - 59:06) I thought about this and I'm like, it's so hard. You all. Honestly, my savvy sauce is Jesus Christ.

 

It just is. I know sometimes we want the answer to be something else, but in all practical terms, it's Jesus. Meaning I start my morning out every day with Jesus.

 

I end every night with Jesus. I pray throughout the day and ask Him to help me make a decision. And I thank Him for all the beautiful things that happened to me throughout the day.

 

And I just He is this person, this real person that is at my side every day, all day, I hope. And that's how I do anything. That's why I am the mother that I am.

 

Not that I'm the best mother, but because of Him, I can mother and because of Him, I can be a good wife. And because of Him, I can be a good friend and I can minister to others through The Etiquette Factory. It's just it is Him.

 

And, you know, sometimes people will ask me, “Monica, I I want to have the knowledge you have or I want to be able to whatever parent the way it sounds like you parent.” And I'm like, you guys know, it's just it's called Jesus Christ. And Jesus will tell us all things that we should do.

 

And so my sauce is having a relationship with Jesus Christ. It truly is well said.

 

Laura Dugger: (59:06 - 59:24) And, Monica, you are such a gifted communicator and your heart of compassion is evident in your outward behavior. It's been such a joy to get to spend an hour with you today. So, I just want to say thank you for being my guest.

 

Monica Irvine: (59:24 - 59:43) Oh, thank you, Laura. And it's been such a joy. You're so kind.

 

And I appreciate the beautiful ministry that you're doing here on The Savvy Sauce. What a blessing for families to be able to just hear these resources that you've created. So, thank you.

 

Laura Dugger: (59:44 - 1:03:26) Thank you for being a part of it.

 

One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Implementing the ONE Lifestyle Change that Improves All Aspects of Health with Sue Becker (Episode 280)

280. Implementing the ONE Lifestyle Change that Improves All Aspects of Health with Sue Becker

 

Isaiah 61:1 AMP “The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me,

Because the Lord has anointed and commissioned me

To bring good news to the humble and afflicted;

He has sent me to bind up [the wounds of] the brokenhearted,

To proclaim release [from confinement and condemnation] to the [physical and spiritual] captives

And freedom to prisoners,”

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Sue Becker is a gifted speaker and teacher, with a passion to share principles of healthy living in an encouraging way.  She is the co-owner of The Bread Beckers and founder of the ministry, Real Bread Outreach, all dedicated to promoting whole grain nutrition. Sue has a degree in Food Science from UGA and is the author of The Essential Home Ground Flour Book. Sue is a veteran home-schooling mom with 9 children and 13 grandchildren. She and her husband Brad, live in Canton, GA. Through her teaching, countless families have found improved health.

 

Sue’s Instagram: @suebreadbeckers

Sue’s Website

Sue’s Podcast

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sue Neihouser Team

 

Questions and Topics We Cover:

1. You've supplied us with the knowledge, so now let's move on to the wisdom, which is learning how to apply what we now know. What equipment and grain do we need to get started so that this is possible to incorporate into our lifestyle?
2. Once we mill the grain, how long do we have to use it before it loses its nutritional benefits?
3. How long does it typically take to experience benefits from this lifestyle change and what health benefits can we expect to experience?

 

Related Episodes from The Savvy Sauce:

14 Simple Changes for Healthier Living with Leslie Sexton and Vasu Thorpe

26 Practical Tips to Eating Dinner Together as a Family with Blogger and Cookbook Co-Author, Rachel Tiemeyer

33 Pursuing Health with Functional Medicine Specialist, Dr. Jill Carnahan

129 Healthy Living with Dr. Tonya Khouri

205 Power of Movement with Alisa Keeton (Revelation Wellness)

212 School Series: Benefits of Homeschooling with Jodi Mockabee

256 Gut Health, Allergies, Inflammation and Proactive Solutions with Emily Macleod-Wolfe

261 Edible Theology with Kendall Vanderslice

270 Female Sex Hormones, Periods, and Perimenopause with Emily Macleod-Wolfe

275 Raising Healthy Kids: Free Tips with Emily Johnson

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:11)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:45) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

Thank you to the Sue Neihouser Team for sponsoring this episode.

 

If you're looking to buy or sell a home this season, make sure you reach out to Sue at 309-229-8831. Sue would love to walk alongside you as you unlock new doors.

 

I'm thrilled to get to be back with Sue Becker as my guest today. Make sure you go back and listen to part one, which we recorded last week. She was incredible explaining the one nutritional difference that will change everything. And now today, we're going to learn all of the practicals of how to actually implement this into our lifestyle.

 

Here's our chat. Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Sue.

 

Sue Becker: (1:45 - 1:46) Thank you. It's so good to be with you again. I can't wait to share even more.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:46 - 1:52) Well, last time you shared just incredible testimonies of the powerful difference that one nutritional change can make. And you root everything even back in the Bible, and God has really led you on this journey. So biblical passages about bread or grain or wheat appear hundreds of times throughout the Bible. But do you have any specific ones that come to mind that God has highlighted in your own life?

 

Sue Becker: (1:53 - 11:48) Yes, for sure. Shortly after, you know, I think I mentioned there's a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof is death. And we don't necessarily relate that to bread, but it certainly does describe what happened, you know, when the steel rolling mills displaced the local miller.

 

And then one, another one is Proverbs 23, verses 1 through 3, I think somewhere thereabouts. You know, white bread has always been around. The wealthy, the royalty, they wanted fluffier bread and they found a way.

 

And they knew that they could make these sieves, if you would, out of reeds, and they would sift the bran and germ out to produce fluffier bread. But only the wealthy could afford that. Two reasons.

 

Only the wealthy could afford servants or slaves or bakers, you know, to bake their bread for them. That was the royalty. But then also the poor people, when they sift the bran and germ away, they lose about 25% of the flour.

 

So, for 100 bag of grain or, you know, 100 pounds of grain, you are going to end up with 75 pounds of flour, 25 pounds of bran and germ. They couldn't give that up. You know, they couldn't just throw away, discard that food source.

 

So, they ate what was called dirty bread or peasant bread or whatever that we now pay extra money to get back to. But, you know, when I started milling and I read Proverbs 23 in a different light, because what happened with the steel rolling mills, when the white flour came on the scene for the first time in the history of the world, which you won't read about this in a history book, white bread, white flour became food for rich and poor alike. And that's why we began to see sickness and disease.

 

The wealthy had it. And, you know, the royalty had it. But Proverbs 23 says, “Be careful when you sit down to the king's table. Do not crave his dainties and his delicacies.” And I always thought that might be things like, you know, squid or, you know, eyeballs or foods that caviar, you know, things that we couldn't afford. But dainties and delicacies to me now describes white flour, fluffy things, bread and pastries and cakes.

 

So, God says don't crave his dainties and delicacies. They are deceitful food. And it even says put a knife to your throat lest you be given the gluttony.

 

We talked last time about bread. People thinking, you know, gaining weight. Well, you know, the white flour dainties and delicacies.

 

Yes, they lead to gluttony. So that was one that really came to mind. And then, of course, Isaiah 55 verse two.

“Why do you spend your money for that which is not bread and your earnings for what does not satisfy?” And so, I always thought, oh, Lord, I didn't know it wasn't bread. You know, I didn't know that's what I was spending my money on.

 

But just a few weeks ago, I was thinking about that verse again in a little different light. Like He was saying, why are you spending your money for that which is not bread? We're spending all this money moving away from bread on food, the keto, the fat, the all these the meat.

 

You know, we're spending our money on all these things that aren't bread. They don't satisfy like bread does. So that was a little different light.

 

Yes, on the one hand, what I thought I was spending my money on. I didn't know it wasn't bread. But then now all these anti-bread, anti-grain diets.

 

Why are you God saying, why are you spending your money on all of that on and your earnings for what does not satisfy? So that was a little different light on that picture. And of course, then Haggai chapter one, verse five says, “You sow much, but you reap little you eat, but no one is full. You drink, but you never have enough. And he who earns wages, earns it to put it in a bag with holes in it.” And you may be going, how does that relate to bread?

 

We spend all this money on food, and I air quotes “food stuff” that is taking our health away, making us sick. To me, that's a bag with holes in it. Because then what do we spend the rest of our money on health care, medicine, whatever.

 

So those were some, some pretty profound scriptures that God showed me. And 1 Timothy 4:1-3. It says that the Holy Spirit declares that on the last day, some will turn away from the faith and pay attention to deceitful spirits.

 

And listen to these doctrines of demons. This is the scripture saying this misled by the hypocrisy of liars who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which God has created to be gratefully shared by those who believe and have a clear knowledge of the truth. That's pretty powerful.

 

That's pretty powerful because you can grill yourself a steak. You can eat an apple all by yourself. You can eat fruits and vegetables all by yourself.

 

You're not going to make one roll. You're not going to make one piece of bread. Bread was made to be shared.

And even the word companion means with bread. Did you ever think about that? So, um, that's, that's pretty powerful that in the end times and, you know, wherever you are with that, but we have to believe that there are teachings that are teaching us to for, you know, to not eat foods that God created to be shared and bread is at the top of that list.

 

So those are some powerful bread scriptures that that have just ministered to me. There's, there's just so many, you know, and Jesus John 6:35, I typically sign my book that way. Jesus says, “I am the real bread of life. And he who comes to me shall be satisfied” in Isaiah 61. That's a verse the Lord gave me so many years ago. And, you know, most people know it, the spirit of the Lord God is upon me because he's anointed me to preach the gospel, you know, and I'll never forget.

 

I had the great privilege of sharing the gospel one time, which is not something I normally do. And at a women's homeless shelter in Atlanta, and I saw in seven or eight people after I shared gave their life to the Lord. And I was like, oh, this is what I want to do.

 

I don't want to talk constipation and poop anymore. And surely it's not important. And I really got kind of down about it.

 

I was like, yes, I want to go share the gospel. This can't be important. And a couple of days later, after that wonderful, glorious experience, I mean, I literally wanted to go hand tracks out on the street corner.

 

I just wanted to be one of those people. And I was supposed to be going to speak at a women's Bible study, giving my what my children lovingly call mom's poop talk. And I got up and I was like; I didn't want to do it.

 

And I just cried out to the Lord. I was like, I don't want to talk poop anymore. There's so much more in me besides this.

 

And surely this can't be important. And again, cried out to the Lord. Again, just turned to my regular Bible reading.

 

And my verse of the day on my calendar was Isaiah 61, one through three or four, whatever it is. The spirit of the Lord God is upon you. He's anointed and qualified me to preach the gospel.

 

And I was like, yes. And it says to bind up and heal the broken heart. And I was like, yes, that was those ladies.

 

I know this is what you want me to do. And then it said, proclaim Liberty to the captives. And in my Amplified version in parentheses, it said spiritual and physical.

 

And what God spoke so to my heart, he goes, the message that I'm sending you to speak today is to set my people physical captives free. He said, my people aren't spiritually captive. Their physical captives held in captivity by every kind of sickness, disease, snotty nose, constipation, irritable bowel, diverticulitis, whatever.

 

Big ones and little ones, you know, health issues. And that I got up and I just renewed my passion. And I was like, okay, Lord, this is what you've called me to do.

 

So that was that was the real game changer. It kind of a game changer for me. I was beginning to see the unimportance of it.

 

And now, after all these years, I mean, when people hug you and with tears in their eyes, sorry, and tell you that you that you're teaching save their life. Now, I know what God was talking about. And I still love to share the gospel.

 

I still love to teach the word. And I know God's anointed me to do that as well. But this is definitely where God has called me.

 

And another time when I was out speaking, he shared and I was, you know, kind of questioning. And it says in Matthew, when the multitudes, when Jesus saw the multitudes coming to him to heal him, you know, to seek healing. It says he had compassion on them because they were harassed, distressed, bewildered and helpless and dejected like sheep without a shepherd.

 

And it said, and then he goes on to say, and he's telling his disciples, the harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few. And he spoke to me then and he said, the laborers are few. There's not many out there at that time.

 

There were not many people out there teaching what I teach, teaching other things, maybe, but not about the bread, real bread. So those have been some life-changing scriptures that have just given me a heart and a passion to keep going. And then, of course, it’s the bread stories that just come.

 

Laura Dugger: (11:49 - 12:19) So it's incredible. So profound. And I'm with you.

 

I love the Amplified version. Yes. You've supplied us with so much knowledge today and last week.

 

But now I'd love to move on to the wisdom portion, which is learning how to apply what we now know. So Sue, if we're just getting started, what equipment do we need? And then how is that going to be possible for us to incorporate it into our lives?

 

Sue Becker: (12:20 - 17:03) So like I said last time, I think we ended with keep it simple. Grain mill, top of the list. I once heard a lady.

 

She taught a little bit on milling, too. And she said, “I tell everybody you want to change the health of your family. Start with a grain mill.”

 

And like I say, over and over, I have never seen one dietary change make such profound and extensive, immediate, noticeable, across the board health benefits. So start with a grain mill and you don't have to have a barn. You don't have to have a live by a creek and a gristmill and all of that.

 

It will sit right on your counter. And still today, after 34 years of milling my own grain, my grain mill still has prime real estate on my counter. And it's the most valuable kitchen tool in my kitchen.

 

I love the Wonder Mill particularly. We do sell other mills. The NutriMill is a great mill as well.

 

I like the stainless steel milling heads because they're fast, they're very clean, and they just get the job done very quickly. Stone mills have gotten very trendy and popular. We sell those as well.

 

They're slower, might be better for a smaller family. They do, you know, have a broader spectrum of from pre-cracking, cracking the grain to very fine flour. And that's why some people are attracted to that.

 

But if I want cracked grain or coarse ground grain, I just use my blender, which I don't think too many people don't have a blender. You know, we all have blenders. So that's an easy fix for me.

 

And it's just, to me, the micronizing or the stainless steel milling head mills, the Wonder Mill, the NutriMill, they're just so easy to use. Put them together. I mean, they just snap together, turn it on, pour the grain in.

 

There's no calibrating, no, you know, adjusting the milling heads and everything. They're just easy, and they're fast, and they mill a lot of flour at once. So if you have a large family like mine, you know, I milled 12 cups of flour in less than a minute by the time I've got my other ingredients ready.

 

So that's top of your list. And then you're going to have to have some kind of grain. So, like I said, that was the next thing people go, where do I get grain?

 

And I'm like, well, I guess we need to sell grain, too. So we sell just about every kind of grain or bean here at Bread Beckers. We sell it in food-grade plastic buckets so that it is storable.

 

You want to keep your grain protected from moisture and bugs and, of course, rodents. So it's grown outside, so there could be bugs undetected in your grain that you might buy in a bag or something like that. But it's really important to protect your investment.

 

Hard wheat is going to be your grain for yeast bread. So we have hard red and hard white. We do sell also kamut and spelt.

 

Like my sourdough bread I've got working on right now is a combination of kamut and red wheat, which is one I really, really like. But those are more ancient grains. Those are in the bread-making category of wheat, so you could do that.

 

And then if you know you're going to make cakes and cookies and things like that, I highly recommend getting some soft wheat. Well, we get ours is grown in Montana, but they have to irrigate to make it soft wheat, so it is grown. We do have a soft red wheat that is grown here in Georgia that we sell and then a soft white wheat that we also sell.

 

And that's good for your cakes, cookies, brownies, biscuits, things like that. And then corn, mill your own corn. You've never tasted cornbread until you mill your own.

 

These are just easy quick bread recipes. You can find them all in my book, The Essential Home-Ground Flour Book. So that's it.

 

And then, of course, basic list of getting started items. Beyond that, you might already have oil. We use extra virgin olive oil.

 

That's just my oil of choice. There's some other sunflower seed oil, grapeseed oil, avocado oil. Those are good oils.

 

I just don't need another oil. We import our olive oil from Greece, and it is truly extra virgin olive oil. Unfortunately, the olive oil industry is not very reputable, so you have to know what you're getting.

 

And we actually were able to visit the olive oil factory and I guess you call them orchards, the fields, two years ago. And that was really great. It's Creighton Mills.

 

It's a fifth-generation family-owned olive oil company and very, very reputable. And so we know that what we're getting is truly extra virgin. Yeah, you had a question?

 

Laura Dugger: (17:04 - 17:13) Yeah, just with that, because it is such a corrupt industry, can you elaborate a little bit more about what's special about that?

 

Sue Becker: (17:13 - 21:07) Yeah, so to be labeled or designated extra virgin olive oil, it has to have a percent acidity. And I do have a podcast on my Sue's Healthy Minutes, “The Fact About Fats”, and I explain what that means. It's not a pH, but it's a percent acidity of 0.8%. And that's a measurement of the, and I'll go into more detail in my podcast, but simply it's just a measurement of the amount of oxidation of those fatty acids that are found in the olives that has taken place. So, 0.8 means that it's a measurement of how much there. And so, it has to meet that requirement to be extra virgin olive oil. Anything less than that is just better and better, you know.

 

So, our olive oil, excuse me, from the Isle of Crete is where our olive oil comes from in Greece. The basic one we have, the Agrelia, they guarantee that it's 0.8 or less. Most of the time it's 0.5. Then we have one that's 0.2 and so on. And we do have a certified organic. The problem is, and I know not everybody's going to run out and get their olive oil from us, but here's what you want to look for. You want to look for an olive oil that is bottled in the country of origin.

 

Because the disreputable oil companies, when they bring the olive oil in in barrels and take it, it might be checked there at the dock or whatever. But then when they take it to their factory and bottle it, no one pays attention there. So, they are mixing it with other oils oftentimes.

 

We used to sell oil that was labeled extra virgin cold pressed olive oil. We had it tested and the results came back that it was less than 1% olive oil. So that tells you it's, you know, the oils you're buying on the shelf, chances are if they're bottled here in America.

 

Now that I know California makes some. There's actually an olive oil company in South Georgia around Vidalia. They've learned that olives will grow there very well.

 

And so there's some reputable companies in the United States. So, you know, you just need to know your company. But typically, if it comes from another country and bottled here, you might need to be cautious about that.

 

So, yeah. So that's what you need to look for. So, I love olive oil.

 

Contrary to what people try to say that they are selling other oils, olive oil has a perfectly fine smoke point. And you can fry in it. I stir fry in it.

 

I fry my doughnuts in it. You can take it up to 400 degrees without any issues at all. I do use coconut oil from time to time.

 

If I'm trying to make something non-dairy, you know, I'll use it in place of butter. But then I also use real butter. So those are my fats that I look for.

 

And like I said, there's, you know, grapeseed oil is fine. Avocado oil is fine. I think we do sell an avocado oil.

 

But I don't need a lot of other. Those three, olive oil, coconut oil, and butter are just fine. Yeah.

 

Okay. And then raw unpasteurized honey. I sweeten my bread with honey and bake with honey if honey will work.

 

And in most places it will. Where it gets a little tricky working with honey is cakes and cookies and brownies, things like that. I tell people things that have more sugar than flour, you might want to eat in moderation.

 

And that's where, you know, some alternatives, less refined sweeteners. And we use honey granules and sucanat products for brown sugar and white sugar. So those are just some simple things.

 

Laura Dugger: (21:08 - 24:17) And now a brief message from our sponsor.

 

With over 28 years of experience in real estate, Sue Neihouser of the Sue Neihouser Team is a RE-MAX agent of Central Illinois. And she loves to walk alongside her clients as they unlock new doors.

 

For anyone local, I highly recommend you call Sue today at 309-229-8831. And you can ask her any real estate questions. Sue lives in Central Illinois and loves this community and all that it has to offer.

 

When unlocking new doors with her clients, Sue works hard to gain a depth of understanding of their motivations and dreams and interests in buying and selling their home. And then she commits to extensive market research that will give them confidence in their decision. Sue truly cares for each of her clients and the relationship she forms with each family along the entire home buying or selling process.

 

This was absolutely our experience when we worked with Sue and her team. The house that we desired at the time was actually not even on the market. But Sue had a connection and was able to ask those homeowners if they would be willing to sell.

 

She was timely in her response as she walked us through this whole process. And she helped us sell our home with the right offer coming in hours after it was listed. We kept saying she thought of everything.

 

And Sue's continued generosity was astonishing. I remember one afternoon after we had settled into our new home and she was knocking on the door dropping off a goodie bag for our family that came from the local bakery. Our daughters also loved getting to know Ms. Sue as she assisted us in finding truly our dream home. So whether you're looking to buy a home for the first time or looking to upgrade or downsize or making the big decision to move to an assisted living from your home of many years Sue will be there to help you navigate the big emotions and ensure the process is smooth and stress-free and that the new doors to be unlocked are ready and waiting for more memories to be made. So, call her today at 309-229-8831 or visit her website at sueneihouser.com. 

 

Thanks for your sponsorship.

 

I'd love to go into a few of the other ingredients but first if we're even just thinking of the grain ideally we would get to come and visit you and get it from you. We've gone through all the steps.

 

But if we live elsewhere, two questions. How would we start a co-op so that we could have grain or how do we find out if one's already in our area? And then also are there any fear of glyphosate or any other issues with grain?

 

Sue Becker: (24:17 - 32:44) Oh wow, that's a loaded question. So, first of all, let's just say if you don't live close to us, we ship buckets of grain every day. UPS, we do.

 

But the shipping is quite expensive. UPS does not care about the cost of the product. They care about the weight.

 

And so, once we get it boxed up in the box that we have to ship it in, it's 49 pounds. So, it can cost anywhere from $25 to $30 just in shipping for that bucket of grain. Our grain prices are still very competitive, a lot less than a lot of people out there.

 

And we do carbon dioxide package our buckets of grain. So, we guarantee that they are bug free. You don't have to put your grain in the freezer.

 

You don't have to put diatomaceous earth or bay leaves. We've already done it. That's what the carbon dioxide gas has done.

 

And once it does its job, it's done its job. It doesn't matter now if you open the bucket and go in and out, in and out, in and out. But we realized back, I think I shared our Joseph vision of providing God's people with grain.

 

Way back, we started something called co-ops. As we traveled and spoke, people would ask that very question. Okay, great.

 

I'm buying the grain from you now, but what do I do when you leave? You know, I'm in Richmond, Virginia. I'm in Miami, Florida or Orlando, whatever.

 

So, we developed co-ops. And you can go on our website, breadbeckerscoop.com, and find co-ops in your area. And what that is, we have a coordinator, some person that kind of handles and facilitates the ordering.

 

If you join a co-op that's the closest to you, you'll get on, you know, there's no cost to join. And you're never obligated to order. If you don't need to order in that cycle, that's fine.

 

We deliver to each area four times a year. I'm sorry, three times a year, every four months. And so, you'll get an email saying your ordering window is this month.

 

So, you order, say, in August for a September delivery or June for a July delivery. And everybody's on a schedule. We have them grouped together.

 

And then you can order as much or as little as you want. And it greatly reduces the shipping cost per bucket. And you typically get a discount for ordering with the co-op as a group.

 

So that's a great advantage of a co-op. If you can't find one in your area, then email support@breadbeckers.com, and we'll send you the information of starting a co-op in your area. Pretty much all you have to do, because it's pretty streamlined, when people order they just go online, order, and pay us.

 

But then it's put together as your co-op. And you just have to facilitate the delivery and then making sure everybody knows to come get their product from you. But that's the way it works.

 

So that would be a great opportunity to get grain and whatever. And like I said, we ship anything on our website you can get through the co-op, most everything, really, really saves on shipping. And then we have certified organic grain here.

 

And, of course, it can have no chemical, herbicides, pesticides, fertilizers used at all. Contrary to what you may read and hear and see on the internet, wheat is not genetically modified, not at all. Now it was approved for testing and trials last year in August, but up until that point none at all was here in the United States.

 

And it's still in the trial and testing. I'm praying that it never comes out on the commercial market. But right now, there is no genetically modified wheat, especially that we offer or that's offered out there commercially.

 

That being said, that means wheat is not roundup ready. If it was sprayed with glyphosate, it would kill the plant. Now, non-organic farmers can use it on their soil to kill, you know, whatever's been growing.

 

So pre-planting, then once they harvest it, they can use it after harvest. So, there is an issue with, you know, using glyphosates in our non-organic farming techniques. It is very uncommon, contrary to what you hear people say, for a wheat farmer to use roundup or glyphosate as a desiccant to harvest their grain.

 

It's very, very uncommon in the United States. Colder climates where there's a chance they might lose it to bad weather or whatever, they may. But even still there's other things they prefer to do instead of that because that's expensive.

 

It's not cheap. You know, you're talking 30,000-acre farms, these, you know, big wheat farmers. So, it's very, very uncommon.

 

And you can even find that information on the USDA website, that it's less than 3% ever use it like that. Now, like I said, there are other crops and farmers that use it pre and post harvest, but we're very comfortable with our grain suppliers. Most of our wheat comes from Montana.

 

It's cold. And they still practice pretty traditional farming methods, tilling things under and planting cover crops and things like that. But if you're really, really concerned, then buy certified organic.

 

I mean, you know, for the price difference, yes, I think it's like $12, but that's for 42 pounds of grain. So, you know, but like I said, we are very comfortable with our farmers, with our suppliers. Our oat supplier says that they spot check and make sure that, you know, no glyphosate is used even on their non-organics.

 

I think the problem with there, and people are going to say, oh, yeah, but they tested all these cereals and these oat products and found that they all had residual glyphosate. You've got to remember; those are your big food companies. Those are your big pharma, your big, the other pharma, F-A-R-M-E, you know, M-A.

 

There's no telling, you know, what they do. But, you know, glyphosate use is a significant issue. I want people to understand that.

 

But it's more in the farming techniques of desiccating after harvest, instead of used to farmers after harvest, the stubbles all there and corn stalks are all there. They would till it all under and then that would decay and, you know, help nourish the soil. Now they're going in, and this is non-organic farming, they're going in and spraying the fields and then just using seed drills.

 

Not as prevalent, I don't believe, with wheat, but it is used a lot with soybeans, corn, what else, cotton. Cotton is really bad. And there's not a lot you can do.

 

I mean, we just have to stay informed. But I hate it when I see people passing on misinformation about making it sound like it's just a blanket procedure that's done of desiccating these massive wheat fields, you know. And I've seen pictures; people will show them dead in the field.

 

Well, the wheat turns very golden and dries out, you know, before harvest. And then once they harvest it, it dies right there in the field. So, it's just kind of a misnomer.

 

But when in doubt, buy organic. So there. But, you know, I tell people if you're going to avoid toxins and glyphosate the way it's being used in our country today, you would basically have to never leave your house, go naked and probably never eat any food at all, you know.

 

And think about like lawns and golf courses and things like that. If you live around that, you're being exposed a good bit. So, wheat is actually detoxifying.

 

So, it passes through the body absorbing toxins. So, I think you're safe with wheat and, you know. But again, buy organic if you're concerned.

 

Laura Dugger: (32:45 - 32:57) Love that explanation. And then because I think of the other ingredients and bread and even the offerings that you have, what should we be aware of when it comes to salt and emulsifiers?

 

Sue Becker: (32:58 - 36:23) Yeah. So salt is something I studied later, you know, after I, you know, I, it made sense why they started, you know, separating the bran and germ from the flour too. So, the flour wouldn't spoil, but I'm like, salt doesn't spoil.

 

Why would they refine salt and do some digging and do some research and you find that natural mined mineral salt has trace minerals that we need, but it's the sodium chloride that makes the salty flavor. So, they, they have learned that they can extract those trace minerals out of the mind mineral salt and sell that to other industries for minerals and leave us with the sodium chloride and it's perfectly salty. So why not do that?

 

And then so that it will rain, well, it will, you know, “when it rains, it pours” the, you, you're probably too young to know that slogan, but that was a big one when I was growing up. They heat treat the salt so that it does not readily absorb moisture. So the crystals are harder so that when it rains or it's humid, it will pour unlike your unrefined salt that will tend to clump up if it's humid.

 

So that's what started happening to our salt. And I didn't believe this, but I did just a few weeks ago, go to the store because I haven't bought salt in years. Cause I get it.

 

We sell Redmond's natural mined mineral salt that comes from Utah, but I went to the store and sure enough, they put anti-caking agents sometimes in some of the brands of salt, dextrose, which is a sugar. Who would have thought that? And just know that you know, the heat treatment is makes it where it doesn't readily absorb moisture.

 

So that's why you tend to hold fluids when you eat a lot of salty foods. So, it's trying to help your body be able to utilize it. And while we're on salt, I hear a lot of people, they'll ask me, can I make the bread without salt?

 

My doctors put me on a low salt diet. First of all, that's concerning, but I want to say to you, just getting rid of processed foods, it will greatly diminish your sodium intake from bread to they have, you know, when things are so denatured that they, you know, they smash it, they cook it, they boil it, they take all this out and that out. Well, then it's flavorless.

 

So, they have to sweeten it and salt it to make you want to even buy it again. So, if you look at ingredient or not ingredient labels, but nutrition labels on processed foods, and I'm talking canned fruits, vegetables, bread products, and all these things, you will see that the sodium levels are much higher than the potassium levels. Well, in nature, that is not the way it is in, in your fresh fruits and vegetables.

 

Your potassium level is typically twice your sodium level where, so read your labels on your food and you'll see that sodium is typically twice the potassium in processed foods. So that's what I encourage people. You know, you can make bread without salt.

 

You probably won't like it. It'll be kind of tasteless. If you need to read, if you feel more comfortable reducing the amount of salt, then do that.

 

But most importantly, quit eating processed foods. That's going to greatly reduce your salt intake and then use a natural mind mineral salt that your body can utilize. So that's salt.

 

What was the other thing?

 

Laura Dugger: (36:24 - 36:25) Emulsifier.

 

Sue Becker: (36:25 - 40:36) Raw unpasteurized honey is what I use. I recommend. And then the emulsifier.

 

I think you must be talking about lecithin. Lecithin is totally an optional ingredient. You can make great bread without lecithin, but I'm going to tell you, you can make really great bread by adding a little bit of lecithin to your bread dough.

 

It's a natural emulsifier. It is what's called a phospholipid. It has an acetylcholine that is what it's made of.

 

And it, it, what it does in your body, it breaks down fat and cholesterol into small enough particles that can get through your capillary wall and into your bloodstream and into your cells and your tissue. It is found in any type of unrefined food that has oil. So, your eggs, your milk, your oils, your unrefined keyword, unrefined oils, and guess where else?

 

Grains and beans. It's in the, the germ portion of your grains and beans. And that is the nutrient that even without adding it to your bread, it is there already.

 

And that's the nutrient that I discovered brought brings down cholesterol, blood level cholesterol, because, and somebody kind of argued when I said that one time and I'm like, no, no, no, no. I didn't say cholesterol was bad. Cholesterol is not a bad guy.

 

I like the way one biochemist puts it. She said, it's just the pig that got stuck in the barn door. It actually does.

 

It gets stuck in our blood vessels because its big fat molecules are typically big. We need that lecithin in unrefined foods that have oil grains being one of those. And one of the most nutrient dense ones is, is your grains and beans and sources of lecithin, so it breaks those down into small enough particles so that they can get out of our blood and into our tissues and our cells where it is so needed.

 

Cholesterol is a precursor of just about all your sex hormones, all your anti-inflammatory hormones that your body can make. If it has lecithin it helps vitamin D be converted. The sunshine be converted to vitamin D and our body and it makes; it's a part of the fat and protein layer of every cell in your body.

 

The cell membrane of every cell in your body. So, it's very, very important to get that cholesterol out of the blood into the cell. So that's lecithin okay.

 

That was a lot of information. What does it do to our bread? The very same thing it does in your body.

 

It breaks the oil down. You've all heard the saying oil and water don't mix. Well, it breaks the oil down so that it is small enough particles.

 

So, it will go mix into your dough a little better and it will make your dough very smooth, very silky. It will make your bread so very soft. And it's the same.

 

It's the reason they use it in the food industry. They put it in salad dressings so that oil and vinegar will, will mix and stay mixed a little bit better. They started using it in the margarine industry because they're mixing milk and, and milk fats and water.

 

So, they put the lecithin in there. Now I'm not saying don't eat margarine. That's not what I said.

 

They put it in Reese's peanut butter cups. That's what makes that chocolate so smooth and creamy. I'm not saying don't eat Reese's peanut butter cups to get your lecithin, but I'm just explaining that's what it does.

 

It's in your body and outside of your body and your food, and it will make your bread and rolls so soft. And we actually learned when we had a bakery years ago that it helps your bread retain moisture. It keeps it from drying out so quickly. But it's one of those things in Haiti and Tanzania, they don't make bread with lecithin that's an expense that we don't need. But if you want some really, really soft bread and really help my tortilla dough be really smooth and silky and make those tortillas just press out really well. So that's, that's why we use it there.

 

You can use an egg has lecithin as well. I use both an egg and lecithin, and I have really, really soft bread. So just depends on what you're going for.

 

I don't typically put it in my sourdough cause that's a different texture. And I don't typically put oil in my sourdough bread.

 

Laura Dugger: (40:36 - 41:26) So yeah, it just depends on what you're doing there. Okay. That's so good to know.

 

And with the fresh milled grain, I know that it loses nutritional value each day. And I think you've recommended don't let it go more than three days. You'll have to discard it if you don't use it in that time.

 

And it makes me just wonder, then I'm going to link to a previous episode that we did on preparing food for our family, because one of the practices I'm thinking of was whatever you're making, make double and freeze half. So, Sue, I'm curious then with the nutritional value, if the freshly milled grain that we use as the flour is used in our baked goods or our bread, but then we put it in the freezer to be consumed at a later time. Does that compromise any of the nutritional value?

 

Sue Becker: (41:27 - 45:57) Right? Not in, not that I have read and studied what we have to know that as soon as that grain is milled into flour, then now you've exposed the nutrients, the oil and all these to the air and oxidation begins to take place. You might not see it in flour, but you've all seen it in a banana or apple.

 

You cut it, it starts turning dark right away. So, there's a lot of discrepancy and different viewpoints out there on how long that flour until the flour spoils. Well, that would be kind of like that apple is not spoiled, but definitely oxidation has taken place.

 

So, years ago, I read some information that in the first day, you can lose as much as 45% by the third day, maybe as much as 90%. I don't, I don't have that information anymore. You know, I never thought I'd be speaking and teaching, so I don't quote it a lot, but I did contact a university, and they said most of the oxidation is going to take place in those first few days after milling.

 

So exact numbers they didn't give me. But now I will say this, I would never throw flour away. So, I'm not going to say it's bad for you.

 

And some people say six months to a year is the shelf life of that flour. You're not going to lose your protein. You're not going to lose your fiber.

 

It's still probably the most nutrient dense flour that you can use and buy. But I will say this, your best bet is once the bread is baked from everything I have studied, the nutritional loss is minimal. So, if you need to make bread ahead, have a baking day, then bake your bread, freeze your bread or whatever you need to do so that it, most of the time, my bread will last for five or six days.

 

Well, I say it won't mold in that time. Most of the time we eat it before then. So that would, that would be your best bet.

 

Also storing bread, you want to either freeze it or leave it at room temperature. You don't want to store bread at refrigeration in the refrigerator. It will dry it out and cause it to go stale.

 

Now, of course, if you have meat or something like that in there that needs to be refrigerated, of course, refrigerated muffins, little higher moisture. So, if you're not going to eat those in the, in a day or two or three, they, they might mold. So put them in the refrigerator.

 

I have learned a little trick with storing muffins, put a paper towel in the container, either the bag or the container that you're storing them in. It'll really keep them from turning gooey. And of course, always let your bread muffins, whatever completely cool before you package them.

 

But I never throw flour away. If typically, I travel with a grain mill or with bread, if I'm going on a short trip where I'm not taking my mill or whatever with me, then I'll, I'll take bread with me camping. Our family used to camp one.

 

Can't take my milk. We did more primitive camping, can't tent camping, can't take my mill with me. So, I would mill up a pail of flour to make pancakes and, and things, you know, while we were camping.

 

So, we would camp a week. I'm certainly not going to go home. I can't use this.

 

It's older than three days. So, it's not going to hurt you to go that long, but it's, it's the best is mill the flour, bake your bread, mill your flour when you're ready to do your baking and then freeze or store or whatever. But sometimes that's not always possible.

 

We went snow skiing a few years ago and we did take the bread machine. We went with my daughter and her family and we took, we opted to take the bread machine and we just milled flour and put it in a pail and we made bread every day. So, we couldn't take both.

 

So, we did it that way. So certainly there's, there's, there's options. So, yeah, but I never throw flour away.

 

And if I, if I happened to over mill and I have, you know, some charts that show you about how much grain to mill to get, how much flour. So, I rarely over mill, but sometimes you mill and go, Oh, I can't, you know, emergency have to leave. I would bag it, put it in the refrigerator and just try to use it, you know, as first before you use other things.

 

Or if I have a little bit leftover, I'll keep it in the refrigerator and use it to dust my countertop or whatever, when I'm rolling my bread or dump it in my, you know, with a big batch of bread I'm using and just not worry about it. But 90% of the bread, no more than that, probably 99% of the bread I eat. I mill the flour, make the bread or the muffins or the pancakes or whatever.

 

Laura Dugger: (45:57 - 47:00) So I'm so grateful for that clarification. I definitely have information. So that is awesome.

 

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So, let's say we've gathered our ingredients. We've made our first recipe. How long does it typically take to experience the benefits from this lifestyle change?

 

And just to recap, what are some of the health benefits that you may experience?

 

Sue Becker: (47:01 - 58:28) Well, bowel issues are going to be corrected pretty quickly. For me, constipation was my issue. It was done first day, I ate bread.

 

Like I said, poop the next morning. A lot of people go, oh, constipation is not my problem. I'm going five times a day or 10 times a day.

 

So that's more irritable bowel, spastic colon or chronic diarrhea. That may take a week to 10 days to correct, but we've seen people very quickly correct those bowel issues. So, bowel issues are probably the number one, the fastest that you might see.

 

And I, I, you, I love this story that I tell on a lady, and I used to year. I've been telling it for about 20 years. And I used to call her an older lady, but I'm older than she is.

 

Then she was then when I called her an older lady. So, this very young lady, she was the mother of a customer of ours. And the customer was her and her husband were missionaries and they were here on furlough.

 

And she came into the store. Her mother lived in Boston, I believe. And she said, Sue, my mother's having a terrible time.

 

She it's been on steroids for 10 years for her bowel issues. That you should never do that. And she said, but every time they try to wean her off, she has horrible issues.

 

She now has bleeding bowels. She can't sleep through the night. She's getting up five times in the night to go to the bathroom.

 

She can't leave her house. and I hear this a lot. I've had a fella gave testimonies, construction worker.

 

He goes, “Do you know what? The number one thing I have to find out when I go to check on the job, I have to know where the port-a-john is. I, cause I have to go.”

 

So anyway, back to this story. They, you know, And she was going to go to the hospital. And that was right about the time.

 

The gluten-free stuff was coming out. And she said, so she's been told maybe you need to go gluten-free. And she came in and, As a missionary budget, limited budget.

 

And I said, “You know what? Our ministry will give your mother a grain mill.” She was going.

 

The daughter was going to spend two weeks with her. And she goes, I'll teach her how to make bread. She thought about it for a minute.

 

And she goes, I do not know how to make gluten-free bread. Just give me a bucket of red wheat. It can't hurt her.

 

She's already got bleeding bowels. and if it makes it worse, we'll just stop. She emailed me and said in five days of real bread, her mother was sleeping through the night, no longer having the bowel episodes.

 

In two weeks while they were there, everything had normalized and her mother had her life back. That's pretty amazing. So, you're gonna see bowel issues correct pretty, pretty quickly.

 

We've seen that so many times. And then for me, sinus congestion, when your bowels are moving. And we talked about toxins in your colon, sitting in your colon.

 

We talked about the cancer relationship. But another thing that a lot of people don't realize, what's dumped in your colon and your bowels to be eliminated every day is the stuff your body doesn't want. It's toxic waste, whatever.

 

And if it's not eliminated every day, it's gonna sit there and get absorbed into your body. And one of your body's reaction to toxins is to make mucus so you can blow it out your nose or cough it up. You know, think about it logically.

 

When we get sick with a cold or a flu, that organism has made a toxin that our body is trying to get rid of. So, we make all this mucus and that's why you get congestion and you sneeze and you're coughing, you know, so your body can get rid of it. Well, what I learned when I realized I was no longer congested, I started studying.

 

I was like, how is this happening? Well, that's what I learned, that now that my bowels were dumping and eliminating toxins out of my body every day, I was no longer getting that toxic response of the excess mucus. My body was doing what it needed.

 

I no longer needed the antihistamines and the decongestants. So that was a big one for me. Of course, the wart story is pretty amazing.

 

People laughed at me when I told that in the beginning. I knew that it was the bread, that one of my children's warts that he had had for three years went away in the first month. And I discovered that it was the vitamin E that protects every cell in our body and from lots of things, but from being compromised by oxidation.

 

And if your cell is compromised, it is more susceptible to viral invasion. Viruses are caused by warts. So now that our body, the richest food source of vitamin E is wheat, but it has to be freshly milled.

 

So now our body was now getting this abundant source of vitamin E, which by the way, we had our bread tested. And one slice provides 100% of your daily vitamin E need. Wow.

 

Now, I don't necessarily agree with the daily requirement, but still one slice, which no amount of vitamin E was ever put back in enriched bread. But anyway, so I knew that this was the vitamin E protecting the cells and making us less susceptible to viral invasion. And my son's warts went away that he had had for years and in just the first month.

 

So, we tell that, I would tell that story. And we have now hundreds of wart stories, hundreds of wart stories. The most profound one was lady heard me speak at a homeschool show.

 

I only have 45 minutes to speak at a homeschool show. And I'm like, woo, a lot of information in that. So, I talk really, really fast.

 

And sometimes I share this and sometimes I don't. I started to skip my wart story. The Lord, the Holy Spirit just had me stop, tell my wart story.

 

And I finished that day a little earlier than normal. I never finish early. And I just said, well, you know, does anybody have anything to share?

 

Two people shared their wart stories. Unbeknownst to me, mom was in my class, walking down the hall to go to another class because there's lots of workshops at these shows, you know. And the Lord told her to come in mine.

 

There, when I left the room, she was standing outside and told me that. She with tears in her eyes said that she had been praying that God would send her an answer that her daughter had over 500 warts on her. She had had them for, since she was 12 years old, she was now 17.

 

They had had them all burned off, which they didn't treat the virus. So, they all came back, of course. They had been on different medications.

 

She goes; they currently have her on ulcer medication saying that maybe it's caused by stress. Okay, so she follows me back to our table where we're making bread. She eats the bread.

 

She goes, it's delicious. She goes how much is a mill? I told her and she goes; I've paid more than that for one prescription drug that didn't work.

 

What have I got to lose? I like to cook. We have to eat.

 

We'll see. Two and a half weeks, two and a half weeks, every wart on that child's body was gone. She had her life back.

 

She was ashamed. She was embarrassed that she had these nasty patches of warts on her. She wouldn't wear shorts.

 

She wouldn't swim in public with her friends because she was embarrassed and ashamed. And so that's more than just a wart story. And I tell that the wart story because, I mean, like I said, we have hundreds.

 

One little girl prayed that God would take her wart away and they heard about the bread and it went away, you know? And because here's my thought. If this bread can improve your resistance to a virus that causes warts that you've had for five, some people 10 years, what other viruses will it protect you from?

 

That's important to know. And that's what I saw with our, we rarely had colds. We rarely caught flus, you know, from other people.

 

Not saying we never did, but when we did, we got well very quickly and typically, you know, faster than others. Skin issues. Had a mom in here the other day just say that her, she said, we call your bread, the miracle bread.

 

Her son had eczema all behind his ears and on his arms, all cleared up. I had another young man come from; he had heard me speak. His wife heard me speak at a conference in Missouri.

 

They were traveling through, they came to a class, and he came up and said, “Can I hug you?” And I was like, “Well, sure, yeah, go ahead.” And he said, “My wife heard you speak.”

 

And he said, “what you didn't know is I had this rash on my body and it was stinging. It was burning. Doctor after doctor, medication, steroids, nothing ever helped.”

 

And he said, “It feels, it felt like fire ants burning me. Had it for years and nothing worked.” His wife heard me speak.

 

I don't know if she thought, made the correlation with pellagra. I don't know. But anyway, she bought the mill, bought the mixer.

 

She didn't say anything to me. And he said, within a month, the rash was completely gone. But here's one thing he said.

 

He goes, “It was so painful. I had gotten to the point where I wanted to die.” That's pretty significant.

 

And talk, you know, and now within a month, what doctors couldn't fix, the bread did, the nutrients, the B vitamins, the vitamin E, whatever else was in that bread cured his skin issues. And we hear psoriasis, people with psoriasis, it completely goes away in a matter of a few months. Depression, anxiety.

 

One little girl struggled with depression, and they told her to go gluten-free and it got worse. She was so fearful. She couldn't even sleep in her bedroom.

 

She had to sleep on the floor in her parents' room. And the mom with tears in her eyes said, within, they decided to not go gluten-free and to try freshly milling. And the little girl is happy and excited and has her life back.

 

So, I could go on and on and on. And we, you know, just the health of children is powerful to me. And we've seen heart disease.

 

God says in Psalm 104 that he gave man bread to strengthen and nourish the heart. We've had people say, I mean, well, one lady in particular, this was years ago, I wish I had taken her name to follow up with her, but she said her husband in one month and all she changed was the bread, came off the heart transplant list. She said, the doctor says he's not out of the woods yet, but his heart muscle is functioning so well, can't justify being on the heart transplant list.

 

And, you know, I read the works of Dr. Wilfred Schutt, world renowned cardiologist. Do you know what he used to treat heart disease? Vitamin E.

 

And in his book that has nothing to do with milling your own grain and making your own bread, do you know what he attributes heart disease to? When the white flour came on the scene and they started taking the bran and germ out of our flour. He said, we lost the most potent antithrombin, blood thinning and vitamin E for the strength of the heart muscle.

 

So yeah, we've seen a lot in 35 years or 34 years. It's been amazing. And people write and say, “I know you must get tired of hearing this.”

I never get tired of hearing testimonies and stories. And I call them “it's the bread stories” because they tell me it's the bread that's all I've changed and this is what I've seen. And so, and it's, yeah, it's powerful.

 

Laura Dugger: (58:29 - 58:56) Well, I love because even before we recorded this conversation, we prayed that God would do more than we could ever ask or imagine. And I feel like that's what he has done with bread too. There's still so much more, but you're just to encapsulate a few things, the improved energy, the supported hormones, the ailments that are corrected, there's so much.

 

And if we want to get started, then can you remind us of your website and what our first step could be today?

 

Sue Becker: (58:56 - 1:00:59) Yeah, first step, buy a grain mill, buy some grain, start milling your bread. And if you're scared of yeast bread, then make muffins and make pancakes. Machines help, you might all have a mixer that you can go ahead and use to make your yeast breads, but muffins, pancakes, coffee cake, three of my basic ingredients, I mean, my recipes that I started with, that's a wire whisk in a bowl.

 

You don't need to knead; you don't need to worry about letting it rise. Buy the tools that help you make this a lifestyle. Bread machine, you might see the Zojirushi bread machine behind you, that, I mean, five minutes, mill the flour, five minutes, dump it in, all your ingredients, come back to a baked loaf of bread.

 

You know, push the start button, come back to a baked loaf of bread. Mixer, for my family, the mixer worked very well because I would mix up dough to make six to nine loaves of bread or six loaves of bread at a time. And I did that twice a week, interspersed with muffins, pancakes, and all of that.

 

So, keep it simple, get a grain mill, get some grain and get a recipe book that you enjoy and just dive in. You won't be sorry. Go to breadbeckers.com.

 

You can find a lot of information. Go to our YouTube channel, Bread Beckers YouTube channel. Lots of videos and how-tos and classes, our getting started classes on there.

 

There's a couple of videos, a basic list of getting started items where I explain to you the hard wheat, the soft wheat, the red wheat, the white wheat, and those things. And I highly recommend, it's a long video, it's three and a half hours long, but it's called Real Bread, the Staff of Life. You can watch it in segments.

 

Pause me if you need to come back later, but it's very profound information. It's 30 years of studying and research and gleaning the scriptures and science and textbooks. And then Instagram, follow us on Facebook and Instagram.

 

And then of course, Sue's Healthy Minutes podcast. You will be blessed by all the information there as well as the testimonies that are shared.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:01:00 - 1:01:19) Incredible. We'll add all of those links in the show notes for today's episode. And Sue, as you remember last time, we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight.

 

And so, as my final question for you again today, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Sue Becker: (1:01:19 - 1:04:32) So what I want to encourage people today is seek the truth. Use your common sense that God has given you. I want to read a quote by a doctor that promotes healthy living, but I want you to listen to what he says.

 

Here's the quote. “Damage to the gastrointestinal tract from the overuse of antibiotics, anti-inflammatory drugs like Advil or Aleve, acid blocking drugs, we talked about that last time, like Prilosec or Nexium, combined with our low fiber, high sugar diet leads to the development of celiac disease and gluten intolerance or sensitivity and the resultant inflammation.” Did you hear that?

 

I absolutely agree with that. All those things cause damage to the gastrointestinal tract and lead to allergies and things like that. “This is why,” now there's where I want you to listen and use your common sense.

 

“This is why the elimination of gluten can be a powerful way to prevent and reverse this and many other chronic diseases.” Next sentence. “The biggest problem is wheat, the major source of gluten in our diet.”

 

Did you hear wheat or gluten listed in his causes? No, you did not. He is making an illogical conclusion to his own truth that he just presented.

 

Wheat didn't cause that. Wheat can actually cure that. And you asked me about a verse that has meant so much to me and powerful, profound verse in the scripture, Deuteronomy 24:6.

 

In that scripture, it's the law. Sometimes you get bogged down in Deuteronomy. I will never forget when I stumbled, didn't stumble, but I was reading this verse and what God showed me.

 

In that chapter or in that verse, God gave a law for what you could take as a pledge when someone borrowed something from you. In those days, if someone was gonna borrow something, they would leave you with something of value of theirs as a pledge. I'm gonna return what I borrowed from you or I'm gonna pay you back or whatever.

 

Listen to God's law. He says, “Do not take a man's upper millstone as a pledge for you would be taking his life.” That is pretty profound.

 

Someone in the early 1900s took our milling stones, took our mills out of our home and we've been losing our health and our life ever since. Wheat is not the biggest problem. Wheat is the answer.

 

Freshly milled, of course. So contrary to popular belief, everything you read on the internet is not true. So, dig into God's word, find the discrepancy from what you're hearing in the world and what God's word says and let his truth rule and reign in your life.

 

That would be my advice.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:04:33 - 1:05:03) That is so good again, Sue, and thank you for getting mills back in our home and thank you for being my returning energetic and intelligent and faithful guest. You're so humble in your approach and you're grounded and rooted in your faith in Jesus Christ. So, I pray that these conversations radically change and improve drastically all of our lives.

 

So, thank you, Sue, for being my returning guest.

 

Sue Becker: (1:05:04 - 1:05:06) You are so welcome and that is my prayer as well.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:05:07 – 1:08:51)  One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

What if this ONE nutritional upgrade changes everything: An Interview with Sue Becker (Episode 279)

279. What if this ONE nutritional upgrade changes everything: An Interview with Sue Becker

 

Proverbs 14:12 NIV "There is a way that appears to be right, but in the end it leads to death."

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Sue Becker is a gifted speaker and teacher, with a passion to share principles of healthy living in an encouraging way.  She is the co-owner of The Bread Beckers and founder of the ministry, Real Bread Outreach, all dedicated to promoting whole grain nutrition. Sue has a degree in Food Science from UGA and is the author of The Essential Home-Ground Flour Book. Sue is a veteran home-schooling mom with 9 children and 15 grandchildren and 1 great-grandchild so far. She and her husband Brad, live in Canton, GA. Through her teaching, countless families have found improved health.

 

Sue’s Instagram: @suebreadbeckers

Sue’s Website

Sue’s Podcast

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Radiant Faith and Wellness event

 

Questions and Topics We Cover:

1. Will you tell us about your professional background and share what led to a life-changing discovery? 
2. In addition to helping us feel better, how can this swap also affect our weight?
3. We are told gluten is the enemy, but you teach how wheat can actually be the cure, not the cause. . . Will you elaborate why even people who are sensitive to gluten can still enjoy this bread and experience greater health benefits because of it?

 

Related Episodes from The Savvy Sauce:

14 Simple Changes for Healthier Living with Leslie Sexton and Vasu Thorpe

26 Practical Tips to Eating Dinner Together as a Family with Blogger and Cookbook Co-Author, Rachel Tiemeyer

33 Pursuing Health with Functional Medicine Specialist, Dr. Jill Carnahan

129 Healthy Living with Dr. Tonya Khouri

205 Power of Movement with Alisa Keeton (Revelation Wellness)

212 School Series: Benefits of Homeschooling with Jodi Mockabee

256 Gut Health, Allergies, Inflammation and Proactive Solutions with Emily Macleod-Wolfe

261 Edible Theology with Kendall Vanderslice

270 Female Sex Hormones, Periods, and Perimenopause with Emily Macleod-Wolfe

275 Raising Healthy Kids: Free Tips with Emily Johnson

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:09)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:29) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

Have you heard about this one-of-a-kind experience, the Radiant Faith and Wellness event?

 

It's going to take place January 30th and 31st at the Cannery in Eureka. I hope you learn more or purchase your tickets on this website or check them out on Instagram at @radiantwellnessevent and make sure you stay tuned to find out what the code is so that you can purchase your discounted tickets.

 

Happy New Year everyone! I am so excited to get to kick off the year with one of the best episodes I can ever remember.

 

You are in for a treat today with my guest Sue Becker. She is going to enlighten us to the one achievable, easy-to-implement nutritional change that could change everything. Here's our chat.

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Sue.

 

Sue Becker: (1:30 - 1:39) Thank you so much for having me. It is a real honor to be able to share my story, share my message with others that can listen and hear.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:40 - 1:56) Well, it may be one of the times I've most anticipated this conversation, but I'd love to just start by going back. Will you tell us about your professional background and share what led to a life-changing discovery?

 

Sue Becker: (1:56 - 14:21) Yes, yes. Well, it's a little bit of a long story, but I'll keep it as brief as possible. So, I always say, many years ago, headed off to the University of Georgia as a pre-med student because I loved studying everything about the human body and I wanted to help people and save the world, you know, all the grandiose ideas.

 

But my big passion was physiology and biochemistry. I loved studying that. Got there and realized, you know, I don't really want to be in school that long and I don't want that type of career after I graduate.

 

I knew my ultimate goal was to be a stay-at-home mom and I was like, okay, so why am I pursuing this? But I loved the field of study. And so changed my major, got accepted into pharmacy school, spent a quarter there and went, this isn't really what I want to do either.

 

So then I was led by the Dean of Pharmacy School to the field of food science, which was an up-and-coming industry at the time. I focused my attention more on the microbiology aspect of it and after graduation, I worked for Kraft Foods for almost five years as a bacteriologist in the lab there. I met my husband at the University of Georgia, and we married, actually, our senior year.

 

And so then, like I said, after I graduated, I started working for Kraft until I had my first child. I did become a mom, for sure. I have nine children, seven biological, two we adopted later in life, ranging in ages now from 45.

 

My oldest daughter doesn't like me to tell that, but it's too bad. It's what it is. 45 to 29, I believe Olivia is.

 

Yes, 29. And then I have 19 grandchildren and my very first great grandchild was born just a few weeks ago. So that's been a real blessing and a treat.

 

But after graduation, because I loved studying, it's funny, I tell everybody I'm a much better student now than I ever was in college. It's funny how you love to study once you don't have to perform with tests and things. But I continued studying physiology, biochemistry, read the works of prominent biochemists of the day and kind of came at everything with believing that we're fearfully and wonderfully made.

 

Our bodies know what they need and if they're not getting something they need, then chances are we're going to see sickness or lack of health. So, I kind of came at everything from that standpoint. It might be a little simplistic, but I think it's a great starting place.

 

So, I focused on feeding my family healthy food, you know, supplementing when we needed to. I tell people I grew up Southern. I grew up in a family of cooks and not chefs, but we cooked.

 

We ate real meat, real vegetables. My husband and I loved to garden. We grew our own corn and peas and beans and tomatoes and all the things.

 

So, we were eating real food. But we weren't a sickly family for sure, not compared to what others were, but we still had our share, our fair share. And so, we clipped along like this and I, in 1991, because of my interest in physiology, biochemistry, I subscribed to a publication, a health journal.

 

And the first publication that came into my home was entitled, "How to Greatly Reduce the Risk of Common Diseases." In this journal, the history of white flour was presented. Now, this was very eye-opening information.

 

Maybe I need to back up a little bit. The food science is not a nutrition degree. It's not a home economic degree.

 

It's the study of food processing. Everything that has to be done to keep that food safely on the shelf. Something's great. Something's not so great. So, when I read this information, I was like, how did I miss what's done to our bread? Through my studies, I had always read that whole wheat flour was better, but I didn't understand why.

 

So, in this journal, the history of white flour was presented. All the processing that is done to make that flour sit on the shelf forever, never really. And this is, like I said, what opened my eyes.

 

I learned that whole grains, real whole grains are the most nutrient-dense food God has given us. But in that journal, I learned that only when they're freshly milled, do they retain all their vital nutrients. You know, like I said, I had read that whole wheat flour was better.

 

I was trying to buy the stuff in the store, but it was kind of gross, nasty, I say. Didn't make nice bread, certainly not fluffy muffins. So, kind of gave up on that, trying to make bread with the store-bought whole grain flour.

 

And so, we were just buying whole wheat flour from the store. But I learned in that journal, it's not really what you think it is. And I, so like I said, I also, as a food scientist, what was so enlightening to me, when I read that word enrichment on the bags of flour or the bread products in the store, I thought, wow, we're making this better than it would have been, had we not done this favor.

 

I soon learned in this journal that that was not a favor that food companies are doing for us. They replace in their enrichment, a mere fraction of the nutrients that are there. And of course, I learned that once the flour is milled, I learned, well, let me, grains are storable, left whole and intact.

 

They store fairly indefinitely. But once that flour is, once that grain is milled into flour, it begins to spoil. The nutrients begin to oxidize.

 

So this led to the invention of these huge steel rolling mills that would take out the very nutrient rich bran, the oil laden germ that was causing the spoilage of the flour and leaving only the endosperm part, which is the white flour, protein and starch. Wonderful discovery. This flour won't spoil.

 

It'll sit on the shelf forever. And like I said, it looked like a wonderful discovery. And this all happened in the late 1800s, early 1900s.

 

By about 1910, the steel rolling mills had completely replaced the local millers because prior to the 1900s, most of the bread consumed in this country was either milled at home or the flour was purchased from a local miller. The bread was made at home and it was consumed at home. But with this invention, steel rolling, the steel rolling mills displaced the local millers, white flour, white bread became food now for everyone, rich and poor alike.

 

And can you imagine every housewife going, yay, I don't have to mill my flour anymore. I'll never forget years ago, Brad's 93-year-old grandfather lived with us for a little while. And I was in the kitchen milling some corn for cornbread.

 

And he went like this from his chair. He went, "I milled a lot of corn in my day." So, you can imagine people were like, hallelujah, we don't have to mill our flour.

 

But what seemed like an amazing, convenient, life-saving discovery actually turned out to not be so great. Shortly thereafter, the steel rolling mills and white flour became food for everybody. Three diseases became epidemic.

 

Beriberi, which is a vitamin B1 deficiency, it results in nervous disorders. Pellagra is a vitamin B3 or niacin deficiency, results in GI issues, skin issues, dementia, mental insanity. And that one really interested me because I did some more research on that and actually found out that the first case of pellagra was diagnosed right here in Atlanta, Georgia, which I'm from that area, you know, this area where our store in Woodstock is 35 miles north.

 

That first year 30,000 cases were diagnosed. Then anemia was the third disease. This puzzled health officials all over the country. They're like, what in the world is going on?

 

Why are we seeing this outbreak of diseases? And at first they thought beriberi and pellagra were maybe some type of infectious disease. But eventually they traced it to the new white flour that was on the market and the missing B vitamins and iron minerals that were provided by the bran and the germ.

 

Because for all practical purposes, that's where your nutrients are. The endosperm, white flours, protein and starch, protein and starches that we need, but not without the fiber, the B vitamins, the vitamin E, the inositol, choline, the iron, the calcium, all those nutrients. And so, things kind of clipped along.

 

They went to the millers and said, you got to put the bran and germ back in because of all the sickness. But the millers were like yeah, no, that's not going to happen because they had found a very lucrative market for the byproducts, which is so often done now in the food industry. Byproducts of the milling process, the bran and germ were sold to the cattle feed industry, white flour to the people.

 

So they're like, yeah, we're not giving up that money-making market. So things progressed until 1948. And finally, health officials stepped in, the government stepped in and mandated, you've got to fix the flour, you've got to enrich it.

 

And that's where I discovered what a deceptive term that is for the 35 to 40, who knows really how many nutrients are lost when they take the bran and germ away. They only replaced it with four, three B vitamins and iron. And of course, B1, B2, B3 and iron.

 

Supposedly, this took care of the beriberi and pellagra. But I always have to stop here and say, how many nervous disorders do we have in our country today? How many, how much GI disturbances and bowel issues, digestive issues?

 

How about dementia, mental insanity? What about skin eruptions? I don't think it took care of it.

 

But anyway, they think it did. And then it would take 50 years, 1998, after watching the rising incidence of birth defects and understanding that it was the missing folate that is no longer in the flour, richest food source, or most common, most readily eaten food source of folate, bread. Who knew?

 

So, they mandated then that a fifth nutrient be added. And that was folic acid, which, let me stop there and say this, these are synthetically produced supplements, vitamins that are being added to your flour. And particularly the B vitamins, this can be very troublesome, because the B vitamins come as a family, they come as a group, they work together synergistically.

 

When you take one out of context from the other out of balance, it actually depletes you and causes you to have a greater need. We're seeing that now with folic acid and the development of MTHFR, the folate, you know, reductase gene mutation. So anyway, it's caused more problems than it's worth.

 

And I've always thought about the scripture Proverbs 14:12, I believe it says, "There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof is death." And we can certainly see that. You know, and if that were not enough, now, we've, we've taken all this away, we produce this beautiful white flour, but the residual oils cause it some yellowing.

 

So can't have yellowing of that flour. So, they began to choose to bleach the flour and a product called nitrogen trichloride was used for more than 25 years to bleach the flour. It was finally taken off the market because they discovered that this nitrogen trichloride caused seizures in dogs.

 

Are you ready for this? Hyperactivity.

 

Laura Dugger: (14:22 - 14:22) Hmm.

 

Sue Becker: (14:22 - 29:18) When I read that information, it was in 1991. That was the beginning of the scourge of ADD and hyperactivity we're now seeing in our children today. And I couldn't help but wonder, you know, when I read that information, there was one little boy in my son's music class, you know, and, but now, wow, it's pretty prevalent.

 

So then another bleaching agent is benzoyl peroxide. It's known to destroy B vitamins and vitamin E. And let me just tell you this, grains are one of the, especially wheat is one of the most nutrient dense food groups. Like I said, but it's the, one of the richest food sources of vitamin E and no amount of vitamin E has ever been put back in our enriched right white flour.

 

So, we lost that source, but now we're using a bleaching agent that's going to destroy it and B vitamins. And then potassium bromate is often used as a dough conditioner. It helps strengthen that gluten structure to help get a better rise in the bread. It's known to cause liver issues and thyroid issues.

 

And this is what we were consuming. So, wow. Yeah.

 

Talk about my mind being blown, my eyes being open. And then the rest of the journal was a brief discussion of the common diseases that plague Americans and showed why it was directly related, how it was directly related to our consumption of the processed white flour, lacking the nutrients and the fiber diseases like heart disease, cancer, diabetes, diverticulitis, even varicose veins, skin issues, low energy. I mean, it just went on and on.

 

And from my, with my background, this made absolute sense. I knew it was scientifically sound, but it was also, it was a Christian publication. It was biblically sound.

 

And what changed my life here was like I said, always read whole wheat flour, better whole wheat flour, better, but I was buying the stuff in the store and even whole wheat bread in the store. Didn't really see a lot of difference in it. But this introduced me to the idea of an in-home grain mill, buying grain and milling my own flour.

 

That was life changing. I was like, this is amazing. I can do this.

 

Wanted a mill. My husband actually bought me a mill for my birthday in 1991. The mill came into our home.

 

I milled flour. I made bread. I ate bread.

 

It was delicious. It wasn't gritty. It wasn't heavy.

 

It wasn't dense. And I tell everyone I pooped the next morning and it was like, what just happened to me? So that was my life-changing experience.

 

First, first day, you know, my bowel issues were corrected. I had lifelong issues with constipation, struggled with it. Knew I didn't want to take chemical accidents.

 

So tried to do more alternative solutions, find those and they worked if I did them, but they were, I tell people they were outside of my, your realm of daily eating. You had to do something special. And honestly, sometimes I think we look at alternative methods, you know, supplementation or treatment for ailments that are afflicting us.

 

And we're not getting, still not getting to the root of the problem. My problem was I was not eating enough fiber. The white bread, the white flour was constipating me.

 

So this was the only change I made. I tell everyone I've not been constipated since 1991. I know you wanted to hear that, but, but then I had five young children by this time and I, I homeschool my children.

 

We were active in church and baseball and music lessons and all the things, you know, we were busy. I had nursing baby and, and I, but I'm telling you, when I started just adding this bread to our already real food, we were eating. I noticed significant energy.

 

Like I said, constipation gone right away. Then I begin to notice first week. It didn't take months.

 

I was like, wow, I have more energy. My frequent headaches went away. Also with my bowels moving, my chronic constipation went away.

 

I lived on antihistamines before bread since bread. That's another thing I can stand here and tell you. I've not had an antihistamine or a decongestant of any kind since 1991.

 

That's pretty amazing. I had frequent migraines, not had one since we started the bread. So those were, I've noticed my sugar cravings went away because now I was getting the real carbohydrates that my body needed and it's sustaining energy.

 

And then my children, I just noticed they were they were, they would eat and they were satisfied. They love the bread. They love the muffins.

 

They love the pancakes. It was healthy food. I didn't have to coerce them to eat.

 

No more snotty noses, no more ear infections for them. And that we just became a much healthier family. And they, my kids didn't necessarily catch every bug that came around.

 

And if one of them did get sick, didn't necessarily mean that all of us got sick, which a big family, that's, that's pretty significant, you know? And so it was just, and the bread was delicious. When I read that information about whole grains and, and, you know, how bad white flour was, I was, I was thinking that this freshly milled flour was going to be just like the store-bought whole wheat flour I was buying in the store.

 

And you can probably already tell I'm a very passionate person. So, I read this information. I'm like, we're never eating white bread again.

 

We're never, white flour's never coming into our house again. And if we have to choke this bread down, we're doing this, you know? Well, we did not have to choke it down at all.

 

The muffins, the bread, the pancakes, the brownies, cookies, everything I made was absolutely delicious. It was filling and it was satisfying. A lot of people would say, you must spend all your time in the kitchen when all my kids were home.

 

I'm going, actually, no, we eat breakfast and everybody's satisfied. Nobody snacks. And even my kids begin to notice how other kids snack all the time.

 

Not my kids, they would eat and they wouldn't eat till the next meal. And so, it was just very, very satisfying. So, I began to share my bread with everybody, bake bread for other people, take it here, take it there.

 

The next thing I know, so be warned, if you ever start milling and you make bread for somebody, they're going to ask you to make bread for them. So, I did start making bread for other people. And the next thing I know, they're coming to me and saying, my cholesterol dropped 85 points and all I changed was this bread.

 

You know, I feel better. I have more energy. And the lady with the cholesterol, she, I continued to make bread for her for a while.

 

And I always laugh. One of the favorite things she liked that I made for her was cinnamon rolls with cream cheese icing. And she said, I ate one after every meal and my cholesterol dropped 85 points in just one month.

 

And I always laugh. I'm like a statin drug with all kinds of side effects, cinnamon roll with cream cheese icing, you know, and she said, it was her testimony. She goes, "I knew it was the bread. I know it is the bread because three doctors, three different medications, three years, nothing has changed. And this is the only change I made."

 

So, I started hearing this. And of course, she told all her friends, the next thing you know, everybody's wanting me to make this cholesterol lowering bread for them, you know, and I'll never forget. By this point, I had had my sixth child, still homeschooling, still doing laundry, still baseball, church, all the things. And here I was making bread for my family and then making bread for all these people coming to my door.

 

And I was spending all day every day making bread and for others and myself. And I just got really tired, to be honest with you. And I was making this bread and a thought came to my mind.

 

And I just looking back now, I know God put those words in my heart and in my mind. That day, I had also had a few people ask me, would I teach them how to make bread? And where could they get a grain mill?

 

So the idea came to me, met my husband in the driveway. And I said, when he came home from work, and I said, you know what, I don't think I'm supposed to make bread for the world. I think I'm supposed to teach the world to make bread for themselves.

 

And that was the beginning right there. We sat down on the porch swing and talked about what we would call it. And I said, I want to call it Bread Beckers.

 

That's, you know, our, it's funny, we didn't know that at the time. But Becker is a German name that means the baker. So, it is bread bakers.

 

And anyway, so and, and it's funny, because at that point in 1992, my world was four people, four people had asked me about where they could get a grain mill, and what I teach them to make bread. And today, we, well, we, started our business right then in our home, took a little while to, you know, get everything. And we outgrew our home by 1998, what my husband and I and my children could do.

 

I mean, it just grew from the testimonies of other people. I mean, just like that lady when and then you get hundreds of people sharing different stories and passing it on, people, people start noticing. So we incorporated with a longtime friend and partner in 1998, moved the business out of our home, we're currently in this lovely 10,000 square foot warehouse, we moved here in 1999.

 

We have a nice studio kitchen, this is where all my cooking classes take place that we can seat 100 people and regularly we fill up classes like that. We have a lot of online classes already for people to view on our YouTube channel. But and then a few years ago, it's back in 2009, we acquired another warehouse because we are passionate about providing God's people with grain.

 

That first week here, like I said, customer base of four. A week after starting our business, getting all the license and all that really hadn't started getting anything, God woke me up and said that he was raising up Bread Beckers to be like Joseph to supply his people with grain. And I wrote in my journal that morning that it would be a tremendous thing.

 

And it would take a few months, we invested in a lot of wheat, we took all of our savings, this was before we incorporated, it was just my husband and I and our family and bought some wheat, you know, and had spent all of our savings. Well, I got a little nervous. And I woke up that morning after unloading all this wheat and writing the checks and seeing the money go out of the savings account.

 

And I'm like, I don't think the electric company is going to take a bucket of wheat, you know, for payment. So this was my fear. And I felt like, you know, maybe I was being deceived, maybe we were being misled.

 

And I just cried out to the Lord that he would speak to me and confirm to me that this was what we were supposed to do. And this is how I do it. I just cry out to the Lord.

 

And then I just go on with my regular Bible reading, not looking for something I could have gone to the story of Joseph because he had already spoken that to me. But my verse for the day in one of my devotionals was Proverbs 11:26. And it says "Cursed is the man who holds back grain when the public needs it. But a blessing from God and man is upon the head of him who sells it."

 

My husband took that vision. I know you talk about, I was like, what? I could hardly wait for Brad to get up. My husband, Brad, you know, I had awakened early because I was stirring and all just anxious and fearful. And the enemy was just coming at me.

 

And when I shared that all with Brad that he was sleeping next to me, not knowing that I was in all this turmoil. And he just looked at me and he goes, "Sue, I can think of no other verse that God could have given you to answer and your question and to calm your fears." And so he took it to heart.

 

So, we now have a second warehouse. It's 13,000 square feet. We are probably one of the largest grain packaging facilities in the southeastern United States.

 

We have hundreds. I don't know how many we're growing everyday co-ops all over the United States. And we bring in two semi truckloads a week.

 

I mean, I'm sorry, a month, which is actually a little bit more than that. It's about 190,000 pounds of wheat. That's just wheat.

 

Package it down into these great food grade buckets, plastic buckets. And we package it with carbon dioxide gas. So it's perfectly storable.

 

We can guarantee that it's bug free. You know, the enemies of grain are moisture bugs and rodents. So that's why we really firmly believe in packaging it all in buckets.

 

And like I said, we have probably 180 co-ops now. I don't know. It's growing every day.

 

We ship wheat all over the country, grain and everything we sell. So it's been a real journey and just a real blessing. And then I started a ministry called Real Bread Outreach.

 

We clipped along locally, kind of providing grain and grain mills for those who truly can't afford it. But then in 2016, God called me to Haiti. I made 15 trips to Haiti.

 

We built a bakery there. We trained up another team at an orphanage and they were making bread every day. So right now, in Haiti, it's an intense situation, but the bakery is thriving, feeding about 1,200 school children a day.

 

And then the other, it's about 150 orphans. Then we went to Tanzania in 2021. We built a bakery there, started a feeding program.

 

We've helped start a bakery in Israel that is ministering to the Jewish people. We helped train a bakery in Uganda and we've sent mills to missionaries in Japan and the Philippines and Nigeria and Kenya, just all over. And I'll close this part with this.

 

A few years ago, a friend of mine just, she did, she remembered, she said, "Sue, do you remember when you said to Brad, I don't think I'm supposed to make bread for the world, but teach the world to make bread for themselves." And I'm going to tear up a little bit looking back now, like I said, four people, that was my world. Today, it truly is the world.

 

And not just because of the internet, but because of where God has called us through our ministry. And it's a real blessing. So, my encouragement to everyone is do the small thing.

 

You never know where God's going to take you in years to come and how it's going to bless the world.

 

Laura Dugger: (29:19 - 29:21) So I think that was a lot.

 

Sue Becker: (29:21 - 29:22) I know.

 

Laura Dugger: (29:23 - 32:39) It was beautiful. And it makes me think of the verse, do not despise small beginnings for the Lord delights to see the work begin. I'm paraphrasing, but I love how much it has blessed the world.

 

And I remember the first time I heard you, I was trying to just picture what is a mill, but you literally just turn it on and you pour the grain in and it comes out as flour. It's so easy. And so we purchased our own.

 

After our conversation, I get to stick in our loaves in the oven. They're still rising right now. And now a brief message from our sponsor.

 

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Thanks for your sponsorship. So going back to these ailments, I'm going to reference two other things that you said. First, this may be a little unrelated, but even thinking of feeding people around the world or feeding our children, you mentioned, you know, a lot of times if your kids were picky eaters, you'd say, okay, ditch the bread and just eat the meat.

 

But because it's so nourishing and nutritious and that Jesus has given us this as a grace gift, this bread, you can ditch the meat and eat just the bread and get so much nutritional value.

 

Sue Becker: (32:40 - 37:32) Yes, that and that's funny that you bring that up because, you know, one of the things over the years of studying is of the 44 to 46 absolutely essential nutrients needed by your body for health and to promote life. There's only four slightly deficient or missing in wheat, vitamin A, vitamin C. So, God gave us another kind of food.

 

Remember in Genesis chapter 1:29, he says, “I've given you plants that bear fruit with the seed in them.” So that's our fruits and vegetables. That's where we get our vitamin A, vitamin C.

 

Then we get our vitamin D from the sunshine if we get out there and get some. And then B12, of course, is low or is not found in any plant product. That's I mean, plant food.

 

So, you have to get that from your meat, your red meats and things like that. But that's and so learning that you're absolutely right. When my kids were growing up and the bread was my little toddler, how she'd tell me she was hungry, she would say, “I want a roll with honey.”

 

That was what she wanted to eat. And I would take the meat off the sandwich. And before bread, it was eat the meat.

 

After bread, it was just eat the bread, you know, because I knew just from that. And I started thinking about when Jesus said, “Man does not live by bread alone.” He was quoting the Old Testament, but by every word that proceeds forth from the mouth of God, he was reiterating that you think you're living because you have bread and all the biblical, you know, so many of the biblical feasts, Passover and First Fruits, Pentecost, they're around the barley harvest and the wheat harvest.

 

Grain was a big part of their life and of their sacrifices and all that. And he was saying, you think you're living just because you have bread. But I'm telling you, there's a spiritual life that you have to feed as well.

 

So, yeah, that was a fun time seeing the change of my perspective of just eat the bread. And, you know, some days, you know, breakfast was typically a pretty big meal for us. Sometimes it would just be pancakes, but a lot of times it would be eggs and freshly ground grits and bread of some sort, muffins.

 

And then lunch might be muffins and a smoothie because we really weren't that hungry from the bread at breakfast and then dinner. We eat normal. People think we're weird eaters.

 

But, you know, like I said, I grew up Southern. So, we do country fried steak. We do pot roast.

 

We do chicken. We do brown rice, mashed potatoes, green beans. You know, we do it all.

 

And you mentioned something that was funny. When I first started, when I would take bread places, people go, “Oh, my gosh, this coffee cake is so delicious or this bread is so delicious. Can I get your recipe?”

 

And I'd go, “Well, yeah, you can have my recipe. But you've got to understand, I mill my own flour.” Two things they would always respond with.

 

And the first one they would go, “You do what?” And I would go, “I mill my own flour.” The second one absolutely intrigued me for years and years until I did a study on what grain mills, the local millers mills, you know, waterwheels and gristmills and ox treading out the grain.

 

But they would always say to me, “Where do you live?” And I think they thought I must have had a barn and an ox or I lived by a river to have the gristmill to power my mill. Now, you can see my little mill behind me.

 

It just sits on my counter. And you're right. Turn it on, pour it in, comes out flour in a matter of seconds.

 

And I tell people, it's really not any slower or more tedious than taking your flour canister out of your cabinet. And I realize we've deviated in this day and time from even using flour and baking things ourselves when we can go to the store and buy it already baked. But it'll change your life.

 

I have never seen one dietary change bring so many significant across the board, broad spectrum health benefits to myself, my family, and so many people now that share their testimonies with me. It's just been amazing, just absolutely amazing. And, you know, I always, my husband always likes for me to say, you know, in the 25 years of raising my children on this bread, we only had to take them to the doctor twice for an illness.

 

Twice. And twice on antibiotics. They needed it.

 

There's a time and place. Twice to the doctor for an illness. In 25 years, there are people and families that go to the doctor more than that in a week.

 

So, when people say I can't afford it or I don't have time, I'm like, wow, I can just tell you the life-saving and money-saving advantages are, it's hard to describe. So yeah.

 

Laura Dugger: (37:33 - 38:05) Yeah. And like you said, it's an enjoyable process. It is.

 

But also, okay, referencing one other thing, just thinking about these ailments. You had quoted, I believe a doctor just saying about constipation that is, and I don't want to botch it, so I'd love to know if you remember this, that most Americans is that three out of five suffer from constipation or even chronic constipation. And that, was it the number one cause of breast cancer and prostate cancer?

 

Sue Becker: (38:05 - 39:29) Oh, wow. Yes. I'd almost forgotten that.

 

Yes. I was listening to a CD that someone shared with me, and it was by an oncologist. And I still remember, I would listen to things as we began to travel and share and teach, and I would listen to teaching.

 

And so, I had this cassette, if you can remember those or even know what those are. And I remember where I was, I was on I-10 headed to Jacksonville to a homeschool show. And this oncologist at the very end of her message, she said, “Toxins are stored in your, let's see, let me see. So, she said toxins are stored in your fatty tissue. In a woman, it's your breast. It's, and in a man, it's his prostate.”

 

And she said, “When toxins are not carried out of their, your body daily through bowel elimination, then these toxins get absorbed into the body and stored in your fat tissue.” And she said, “So a direct correlation between cancer and constipation is there.” And, and I was just like, what did she just say?

 

And that blew me away. I mean, that was not me saying it, this was an oncologist. And she's saying one of the leading issues is constipation.

 

Wow. Yeah, I'd almost forgotten about that.

 

Laura Dugger: (39:30 - 39:44) Well, and such a simple swap and getting to still enjoy these foods. But in addition to being healthier and the health benefits and making us feel better, how does this also potentially affect our weight?

 

Sue Becker: (39:45 - 42:33) Well, that's a good question, because we're all told that bread is bad, that bread will make you fat. And I totally agree. The bread that's in the store is devoid of nutrients.

 

It's devoid of fiber that fills you up. It's devoid of nutrients that satisfy fiber that fills you up. And it's heavily sweetened, sugared, you know, most of the breads we're eating are not just flour, water, yeast, salt. They're usually loaded with other things.

 

So, they're not satisfying. The fiber in real bread fills you up. So, like I said, you're not going to overeat, you're going to eat and you're going to be satisfied.

 

You know, I always tell the story when, when we were eating just bread from the store, I had five children, I would make sandwiches, they would, you know, cut them in half, I would make five sandwiches, they would, or I'd make the whole loaf, actually, they would fight over the last one. After bread, real bread that fills you up, I would make five sandwiches, cut them in half, and sometimes they would eat them all. And sometimes they wouldn't.

 

It was because it was filling, and it was satisfying. And that's something people need to understand. Also, the nutritional deficiency in the foods that we're eating in the store, especially our bread, they're leaving us malnourished, really.

 

Dr. Denmark, one of the oldest, well, the oldest practicing pediatrician in the country, she lived right here in Georgia. And she said, “We're the most undernourished, overfed people in the world.” We eat a lot because we're never satisfied, because the foods we're eating does not supply our body with the nutrients that we need.

 

And so, we're constantly craving. I don't think a lot of people don't understand what cravings are. You're craving food because you're needing a nutrient, you know.

 

And so, we find that we can eat and eat and eat, and, or not we, but Americans can overeat, and they do overeat because they're never satisfied. And so, real bread fills you up, real bread satisfies, it takes those sugar cravings away, which, you know, a lot of high calorie foods, they're loaded with sugars, and that's what we're craving a lot of times. I read something, women tend to crave sweets and chocolate, and men tend to crave salty.

 

And, but both, if we're craving, you know, processed foods, you know, you can sit down and eat the whole bag of cookies, where you make cookies from freshly milled flour, one, maybe two, if you go three, you kind of go, I really didn't need that one, you know. So, it's just filling, it's satisfying. We have so many people, testimonies of people saying they've lost, one lady said she lost over a hundred pounds, that was over the course of a while, you know, of a year or so, but she did it right.

 

She just started eating real food that nourishes and satisfies.

 

Laura Dugger: (42:34 - 44:21) I want to make sure that you're up to date with our latest news. We have a new website. You can visit thesavvysauce.com and see all of the latest updates.

 

You may remember Francie Heinrichson from episode 132, where we talked about pursuing our God-given dreams. She is the amazing businesswoman who has carefully designed a brand-new website for Savvy Sauce Charities, and we are thrilled with the final product, so I hope you check it out. There you're going to find all of our podcasts, now with show notes and transcriptions listed, a scrapbook of various previous guests, and an easy place to join our email list to receive monthly encouragement and questions to ask your loved ones, so that you can have your own practical chats for intentional living.

 

You will also be able to access our donation button or our mailing address for sending checks that are tax deductible, so that you can support the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and help us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. So, make sure you visit thesavvysauce.com.

 

And throughout the years, you've seen these different trends from Atkins to Paleo, and now a lot of times we're told gluten is the enemy, but I love how you say that wheat can actually be the cure, not the cause.

 

So, can you elaborate on that, and even why some people with gluten sensitivities may still be able to consume bread that was made with freshly milled grain?

 

Sue Becker: (44:21 - 1:01:23) Right, so, yeah, I think what people need to understand is what gluten actually is. And gluten's not really even in grains, it's just an easy way to verbalize it, I guess. So, gluten is the stretchy substance that forms from two proteins that are found uniquely in the wheat family of grains.

 

So, when you mill wheat into flour, and you hydrate it, wet it, mix it, you know, make a dough out of it, those two proteins, gliadin and glutamine, they form this stretchy substance called gluten. Well, it's very important in bread making that you have these two proteins, because when you make a yeast leavened bread, whether it's sourdough or commercial yeast today, those organisms feed on the carbohydrates both in the wheat and in your dough, and they produce carbon dioxide gas. So, that gluten, those stretchy strands of protein, those two proteins, they trap that carbon dioxide gas, and that's what enables the bread to rise.

 

So, it's unique to the wheat family of grain. It has always been there. It's why wheat is the king of bread making and always has been.

 

Who put those two proteins in the wheat family of grains? God did. And just so you know, wheat is not genetically modified, and it has not been altered to produce wheat that has a higher gluten content.

 

What determines the protein content of grain more than anything, which, what did I say gluten is? It's formed from two proteins. What determines the protein content in grain more than anything is rainfall during the growing season.

 

So, that's why here in the southeastern United States, we can't make yeast bread making wheat. We can't grow it because we have too much rainfall and it's too warm. So, we grow what's called soft wheat or pastry flour.

 

That's why southerners eat biscuits, because that's the kind of bread that we can make with the wheat grown here. The colder, drier climates in the breadbasket states of the country, they grow the hard bread making wheat. Now herein lies the problem.

 

When those steel rolling mills came on the scene and began to take the bran and germ out, what did they leave us with? Protein and starch. Those gluten forming proteins and starch are in that endosperm.

 

God never intended us to eat that white flour, those protein and starches without the vitamins, the minerals, the enzymes, the vitamin E that the bran and germ provide. So, therein lies a lot of the problem and that's what causes so many digestive issues is that we aren't getting the nutrients and the fiber that will keep our bowels clean and our digestive system moving the way it is supposed to. Now herein lies a bigger problem is that in the food industry and the American people's craving for fluffier bread.

 

In the food industry, they thought, okay, we can give you fluffier bread. If we take the wheat and we wash it until only all that is left is those two proteins, those gluten forming proteins. They get this stretchy substance and then they dry it and powder it and they add even more pure gluten forming proteins to that white bread.

 

So, now we have an even bigger problem and then and even in that whole grain bread, people want fluffy bread. They don't want, you know, coarser whole grain bread. So, check your ingredients.

 

That 100% whole grain bread that you might be already buying, third or fourth ingredient gonna be vital wheat gluten or gluten flour, whatever they call it and that is greatly upsetting the fiber to flour ratio and causing digestive issues. And then, you know, just the heavily consumption of that bread and you know, the commercially processed bread is a real problem. So, now what we have is people, you know, Americans consuming this bread.

 

Now, they have every symptom of something called celiac disease. Celiac disease is real. It is genetic.

 

I am learning. I used to say it's not reversible, but I am learning something that you might have the genes for celiac disease, but they can be turned on or turned off. So, perhaps what is happening is you might have the gene, but now it's being turned on by eating and consuming this high gluten, if you will, bread out of context, not the way God made it.

 

But then also what is also happening is so now we have people that have all the symptoms. Well, let me back up and just explain what celiac disease, celiac disease, true genetic celiac disease. You are born with these genes, the inability to break down that and metabolize gliadin.

 

That's one of those gluten forming proteins, which the whole wheat family has that. So, if you can't break it down, it's going to cause digestive issues, abdominal cramping. It's going to eventually as those that protein gets dumped into your large intestine, your bowel, it's going to lay down the villi.

 

You're going to have leaky gut. You're going to have all these issues. That is true genetic celiac disease, but it affects less than 1% of Americans have those genes and have it turned on for true genetic celiac disease.

 

So, what is being diagnosed today? Well, everybody eating the commercially processed high gluten packed or you know bread, they're developing the same symptoms, digestive issues, abdominal cramping, laying down the villi. So, they're being diagnosed with celiac disease when it a lot of times is not true genetic celiac disease and I'm not professing to be a medical professional.

 

I'm not giving anybody medical advice, but here's the good news that I do want to say to you. Non-genetic celiac disease is totally reversible. And the good news is people are finding some that have been diagnosed with celiac going gluten-free been gluten-free for 20 years.

 

They're finding they can eat the freshly milled flour because it has the right ratio and the good fiber and the good nutrients to heal their gut, cleanse their gut, and get their bowels moving, cleans out. So, bring that villi back to life and they're thriving. They're not just tolerating the bread.

 

They're thriving and finding reversal of many, many, many health issues. And another big issue too is people don't understand that for the most part digestion begins in your mouth, carbohydrate digestion. You chew your food, your saliva mixes with your food and there's an enzyme carbohydrate digesting enzyme called amylase.

 

Once you swallow that down in your stomach, your stomach is where protein digestion takes place. It must have an acid environment for those protein digestive enzymes to work. God knew that we're fearfully and wonderfully made.

 

He created cells in our stomach to produce acid brings the pH. If y'all know what pH is down to one very, very acidic could eat a hole in your stomach. But he also created these cells that produce mucus that lines our stomach and protects it from that high acid.

 

So, that's where protein digestion needs to take place. Here's the problem. What is one of the most commonly prescribed drugs in America? Prilosec, Nexium.

 

These are antacids. They're prescribing it for something called acid reflux, which is only compounding the problem. So, these antacids are doing exactly what the name of them describes.

 

They're alkalizing your stomach acid. So, what's that going to do to protein digestion? It's going to compromise it.

 

Huh? So, yeah, and the real cause of acid reflux is not too much stomach acid. It is actually too low stomach acid.

 

Our body's not getting the nutrients that needs to produce that stomach acid. Now, it's acid enough that when it comes back up in our esophagus it burns, but there's a little flap that God created right there at our stomach and our esophagus called the epiglottis. Do you know what's and it's supposed to close so that when that stomachs churning and doing its digestion, it doesn't back that acid doesn't back up into your esophagus, but it closes.

 

It's stimulated to close by the high acid in your stomach. Do you see what's happening here? So, we're being prescribed an antacid which now we don't necessarily get the burn, but there's all kinds of side effects.

 

We've compromised protein digestion, which what did we say gluten is protein. Also, do you know the technical term for an allergy a food allergy not a sensitivity or an intolerance the technical term for a food allergy is an adverse reaction to a protein component of your food. I have never seen so many food allergies as we see today.

 

It's very interesting. Some people are diagnosed with a gluten sensitivity. Well, of course, I think everybody is sensitive to the bread and the store.

 

Some people can tolerate a little bit better than others, but I know when I occasionally, you know, we go out to a party or an event and we usually avoid bread, but sometimes it's on everything. You know, I know I wake up the next morning and I'm like, I don't feel good. I have a stomachache.

 

So, I think everybody is sensitive to the bread in the store, but we have now hundreds of testimonies of people who thought they had to be gluten-free or say I have, you know, I haven't eaten bread in 20 years because made me sick. It did this it did that and they are finding they can eat the freshly milled flour because even wheat because it's the right proportions all the nutrients, you know, one of the amino acids that's found abundantly and wheat is glutamine Google it and you'll see a lot of health professionals will actually give you glutamine supplements to heal your gut and it's and it's in the bread. So, then part of the other problem that I see then when people think they're gluten-sensitive or have to be gluten-free now mind you if you truly are genetic celiac, you probably will not be able to eat wheat and I'm saying probably now because I'm learning some things that we can turn those genes off.

 

I don't know but if you truly are genetic celiac, but that is going to be a diagnosis that probably came when you were young you were going to always have had symptoms of these if you are now 20 or 30 and all of a sudden having these issues and you've been eating wheat all your life chances are you're not true genetic celiac. So, that's something you need to look at but people are finding they can eat the flour. They can eat the wheat and part of a real concern of mine is when you go gluten-free if you don't really need to I've been doing some studying as a food microbiologist gut microbiome has been a big topic.

 

I've shared I've taught way before it was trendy on, you know probiotics and all of that and fermented foods. I've been teaching it since 1992 but what happens that they're finding on these gluten-free diets. It's actually diminishing your good gut microbiome and encouraging the growth of more pathogenic making you more susceptible to C. diff, E. coli and other sickness causing organisms.

 

Then you're going to have those organisms are critical for breaking down food that gets dumped into the large intestine and encouraging digestion and enzymes that they create and all kinds of B vitamins and I could go on and on so that is being compromised the next thing, you know, you have allergies to eggs allergies to milk these very restrictive diets change that gut microbiome and they are causing a lot of gut health issues and allergy issues. I've talked to two people in the last few months one lady told to go gluten-free been gluten-free for years. She with tears in her eyes couple of weeks ago came down from Ohio hugged me in was came to our store just wanted to come to our store.

 

I happen to be here that day. She hugged me tears in her eyes and said I was down to eight foods that I could eat another lady in one of my classes came up and said I was down to seven foods that I could eat, you know, so It puts you on a treadmill that I don't think you want to be on when you start very restrictive diets. It's and not just gluten-free, but even you know, the carnivore and the keto and the paleo the heavy meat diets you need whole grains to break the fats down and cholesterol that those foods are providing and I'm a meat eater.

 

I mean, that's fine, but to exclude the most nutrient-dense food group God has given us in my mind is very dangerous. Let's see if we can get healing and reverse that I have a podcast and I do it's the bread stories now and I one of my favorites and I recommend it more often than any other is episode 66 sit with Sarah Valentine if anybody that I hear of that say they have to be gluten-free or their celiac, I would say she fit the bill for what surely seemed like a true genetic celiac. She was diagnosed in I think she was around 15 or I don't remember her age.

 

She was in high school. I think but she had always had trouble even as a little one and she was diagnosed with celiac and she said at the end of the podcast, she goes either God supernatural healed me or it was a misdiagnosis, but she had been gluten-free for 15 years. I believe it was and she told me she said and I she had a dairy allergy.

 

She couldn't eat dairy and she said, you know dairy I cheated on a little bit because it would just cause me a little discomfort. She goes I never cheated on gluten. Well, her brother and her mother heard about me and they Sarah was off at college and they got a mill and started milling because her brother's children had some health issues.

 

I think they have warts and my work stories are great. But anyway, bought a mill. She came home from school and they said Sari.

 

We want you to try this. You nope. Nope.

 

Nope. I'm I can't finally they talked her into trying a little bit should she ate it no issues at all and she told me on that podcast. She said I pooped the best I've ever pooped.

 

I have pooped in a long time the next morning. I slept the best. I had no headaches had no adverse reaction and she's become if any anyone My poster child for you know, reversing what appears to be celiac disease and being able to thrive on real bread and freshly milled wheat with the right balance of those protein starches nutrients fiber enzymes vitamin E all the things that bring healing and improve digestion get the bowels cleaned out and the gut healed.

 

So, yeah, it's something that I think excites me the most and I call it food freedom because what I'm seeing is people are in bondage and you know, when you can't eat this and you can't eat that and I understand there's some I have a granddaughter that has a dairy a true dairy allergy and I get it and those are real and you don't want to you know diminish those but we are seeing so many people that the bread in the store totally disrupts their system and causes all kinds of issues were seeing them not only like I said tolerate bread made from freshly milled flour, but bring healing bring healing and I that is so much our Lord that God knows what he's doing in his intentional design. He is all about healing and freedom versus of setting the captives free.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:01:38 - 1:01:40) Oh gosh, that was a big one. Yeah.

 

Sue Becker: (1:01:40 - 1:02:10) Yeah, but it also just one real practical thing as we're talking about gluten and fermentation with sourdough. This is a two-parter because if you feed it with white flour or add that I'm assuming that diminishes effects and if you feed it with fresh milled flour and then add that to bake it in bread, is that like double the benefits because you've got the fermentation and the grain or how does that work?

 

Sue Becker: (1:02:10 - 1:07:07) You know, I can't find any real definitive information, but let's back up and let's talk about sourdough with white flour there for a while when we were still traveling back in the probably early 2000s a lot of teaching coming out going even celiacs can eat, you know sourdough bread and they were making it with white flour and all of this. Is it better than the stuff you're buying in the store? Maybe but white flour is white flour and it's still process is still been stripped of all the vitamins the minerals and the fiber.

 

So, in my viewpoint, it is no better for you. If you're making it's kind of a waste of time if you're making sourdough bread with white flour. Now, if you start milling your own flour and making your sourdough with that, that's a whole other realm.

 

And like I said, I've done lots of studies most what I find when I read is that when we went to commercial yeast, we gave up flavor. So, I get that and that the bread is kind of flavorless now. So, I get that a little bit but as Americans and especially children, we like our fluffy bread, don't we?

 

Yeah, so, kids, you know, don't fret if you're making bread with commercial yeast. That's the way I make most of my bread. But as a microbiologist and knowing that when those lactic acid organisms feed on sugars, they produce B vitamins.

 

That's like yogurt. Why yogurt has B vitamins and maybe your milk, you know, just uncultured milk doesn't. So, I know that that increases the availability of those nutrients.

 

So, I think there is definitely some nutritional advantages that you take it to a whole new level. But what I say that commercial yeasted bread is not healthy and you can't do that that you only need to be doing sourdough, you know, I learned to make sourdough from white flour when I was first married long before milling came into our family by the time I had my children I had vacated that and then when I started milling I used commercial yeast and have for most of my years and we saw tremendous health benefits. So, I don't diminish one over the other but I certainly recognize that yeah, you might have some better nutrient bioavailability. I don't buy into the that you have to do the long fermentations to prevent the anti-nutrients like phytic acid from keeping you from absorbing minerals because I've had mineral checks and we've seen people testify that they had to have blood transfusions regularly because they were anemic all their life.

 

They start milling making their bread with commercial yeast, you know, and they're no longer anemic and we've seen countless people that and the same with me. I'm never low in my minerals. So, I don't buy into that.

 

But I say, you know, hey if you feel like you can digest sourdough bread better than commercial yeast leavened bread. I'm not going to argue with you go for it do it. But I also don't want to put a heavy burden on especially young moms that are like it's going to take me three days to make bread, you know, or it's you know, no, it doesn't have to so that's kind of my stance on it.

 

Do what works for your family sourdough is a rhythm. So, you got to kind of get into it about the time I get into it. We take a trip.

 

I go speak somewhere. I'm gone for four days and I'm like, okay, where am I with this? So, you know, that's just kind of my viewpoint and what I want to encourage people do what works for you what you want what your family likes.

 

I love I've got sourdough bread rising right now. There's times when I just like I just want you know, that chewy that nice flavorful bread and then there's other times where I want a soft loaf of bread for a good Southern tomato sandwich or my kids like peanut butter sandwiches, you know, so do what works do for your family do what your family is going to eat and love and you know, my husband has a philosophy if it doesn't taste good. It's not good for you.

 

So, if your family, your children, especially don't like the texture and flavor of sourdough some people do but if especially if your kids are used to the bread from the store, that's going to be a hard transition for them. And if they're not going to eat it and balk at it, then it's not going to bring them the health benefits that you're trying to do for your family. So, make what's culturally, you know, if you're a Mediterranean make your pita bread, but make it out of freshly ground whole grain.

 

I make biscuits out of freshly ground whole grain. I make my cakes and pie dough because that's culturally what we eat a lot of so that that's kind of my take on that.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:07:08 - 1:07:25) So good, Sue, and next week, I'd love to get into more of the details of how we actually can implement this into our daily lives. But if everybody's so inspired they want to take their first step before we come back together next week, where can we go to get started?

 

Sue Becker: (1:07:25 - 1:09:02) So our website is breadbeckers.com. So, it's got a lot of information. You can order online.

 

Of course, we have a brick-and-mortar store here in Woodstock, Georgia. We'd love to have you come. A lot of people are coming driving in because they've heard me speak online and heard podcasts and they're coming it and they'll walk in and go, “Oh my goodness.”

 

So we're a full-fledged kitchen store. We sell other things besides grain mills. We sell mixers, bread machines, raw honey, grains.

 

And then of course, go to https://www.google.com/search?q=breadbeckersco-op.com find a co-op in your area. If you don't find one in your area reach out to support@breadbeckers.com and see about starting one. We can do it.

 

And then of course, we're on Facebook, Bread Beckers, and Instagram and then my podcast Sue's Healthy Minutes. You can listen to that on any podcast platform or on our website. So, yeah, and then of course valuable reference tools, my book The Essential Home-Ground Flour Book, and I've got over a hundred recipes, a lot of nutritional information because I told him I can't write a book on flour milling without telling people why.

 

So, lots of good information on different grains and how-tos, how to do quick breads and leaven breads. And a lot of people think bread is a loaf of bread. It can be a muffin, a pancake.

 

It can be a pot of oatmeal or cream of wheat or grits or whatever. And then of course our famous recipe collection. This was the recipes were the ones I developed in 1991.

 

So yeah, so those, that's where they can find me.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:09:03 - 1:09:42) Love it. Well, and that's where we found your location. It's close to where my husband's parents live.

 

And so, we loved coming to your store. We had to try to travel from Georgia back to Illinois. So, I'll try and find a picture of what our vehicle looked like hundreds of pounds of grain of that.

 

Let's see on social media this week. I'll be looking for that. But Sue, I do have one more question for you because we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment.

 

And so is my final question for you today. What is your savvy sauce?

 

Sue Becker: (1:09:43 - 1:11:46) So my savvy sauce would be keep it simple. It's so easy to get overwhelmed when we're looking for answers, especially to help. So, there's so much information out there, especially in the realm of healthy eating.

 

But as a young mom, you know, I had five young children. Like I said, when I got started, I started with four basic recipes. I found a basic yeast bread recipe that would work for cinnamon rolls, donuts, hamburger buns, regular buns, you know, dinner rolls, sandwich bread, whatever.

 

I had a muffin recipe. I had a pancake recipe and I had a coffee cake recipe. Those three are quick breads.

 

Those you stir up and you bake right away. So, I have to, I just want to encourage people to keep it simple. I will never forget this young mom years ago when I used to speak at the homeschool conferences, this young mom raised her hand at the end of my talk and she goes, “I just feel so overwhelmed. I'm being told I have to mill my own flour and make sourdough bread and milk goats and have chickens. I've got a two-year-old and a three-year-old.” And first of all, I was like, go away. Don't even be homeschooling a two-year-old and three-year-old. Just live life.

 

But I just looked at her. I was like, no, just start with the bread. You know, Jesus compared Himself to bread and I studied the seven “I am’s” of Jesus. That's in the book of John.

 

I won't go through each one of them. But the very first He says, “I am the real bread of life. He who comes to me shall be satisfied.”

 

You want to change your fit, your spiritual health. You start with Jesus. Well, I take that analogy over to our physical health.

 

You want to start and improve your physical health, start with the real bread that He compared Himself to. Then your next thing, you know, you might have the energy to milk goats and have chickens and do the next thing. And I've just never seen one dietary change make such drastic noticeable difference in my health and the health of my family.

 

Just start there and keep it simple.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:11:47 - 1:12:09) Wow, Sue, you are truly just a gift and you're impacting families and generations around the world through this truth that really does set us free. So I'm incredibly grateful for you and I'm grateful for your passion and your energy and your generosity on this subject. So, thank you so much for being my guest today.

 

Sue Becker: (1:12:10 - 1:12:16) Thank you so much for having me. It is always a real honor to have an opportunity to share what God has shown me.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:12:17 - 1:15:31) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Discerning What to Do Next with Katie Reid (Episode 278)

"So above all, guard the affections of your heart, for they affect all that you are. Pay attention to the welfare of your innermost being, for from there flows the wellspring of life.” Proverbs 4:23 TPT

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Sue Neihouser Team

 

Katie M. Reid is an author, speaker, podcast host, and songwriter who inspires others to live out their purpose with tenacity, wisdom and grace at katiemreid.com. She is the author of Made Like Martha: Good News for the Woman Who Gets Things Done, A Very Bavarian Christmas novel (which is becoming a movie) and the co-creator of The Digital Peace Pact and the Check Your Selfie Story-Coloring Book. Katie is also the co-host of The Martha + Mary Show podcast. As the Inspiration Doula, Katie coaches creatives, helping them bring life to their projects. Her album, Echoes of My Heart, the Daughter song, and The Very Bavarian Christmas musical soundtrack can be accessed here and on other music streaming platforms. Katie delights in her husband and five children. Musicals, iced tea, and cut-to-the-chase conversations are a few of her favorite things.

 

Questions and Topics Discussed:

1. As a woman who excels in getting things done, what tips can you share as it relates to getting things done around our home?

2. What are some of the changes you've made to your lifestyle that have led to the greatest results?

3. What habits and rhythms do you have in place to support your personal development and spiritual growth?

 

Other Episodes Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce During Episode:

183 Leading Your Family, Marriage, and Self with Justin Maust

Patreon 47: Business, Leadership, and Legacy with Justin Maust 

 

Other Episode Mentioned During Episode:

Mary & Martha Show: Benefits of Chiropractic Care with Dr. Lianne Coombe

 

Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce:

81 Sacred Rest with Doctor, Author, and Speaker, Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith

150 Brain Science and Spiritual Abundance with Ken Baugh

256 Gut Health, Allergies, Inflammation and Proactive Solutions with Emily Macleod-Wolfe

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:09)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:29) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

Thank you to the Sue Neihouser Team for sponsoring this episode.

 

If you're looking to buy or sell a home this season, make sure you reach out to Sue at 309-229-8831. Sue would love to walk alongside you as you unlock new doors.

 

Welcome to the final episode of The Savvy Sauce for 2025. We look so forward to meeting you back here after today's episode on Monday, January 5th.

 

But for today, my guest is Katie Reid. She is wildly creative and also completely grounded in her faith.

 

She's an author, speaker, former podcaster, and coach for creatives. She's going to share on a variety of topics today, ranging from health to discerning God's leading for what's next in each of our lives. Here's our chat.

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Katie.

 

Katie Reid: (1:30 - 1:33) Thank you so much for having me, Laura. This is such a treat.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:33 - 1:45) Oh, it's a delight to get a chat with you. And I want to go back. I want to hear the origins of your writing and podcasting journey and how it's led to the work that you get to do today.

 

Katie Reid: (1:46 - 3:00) Well, in about 2014, I had a bucket list. And on that bucket list, there were things like make a quilt and sing the national anthem in a professional sporting event and bake an apple pie and writing a book was on it. And so, Laura, I've always been a very driven and purposeful person.

 

So, it felt like it was the time to write a book. And I had no idea how hard it was going to be and that it would accidentally turn into a career that I forgot to ask my husband if I could start. But it was when I started writing and I had been writing, you know, just as a kid here and there.

 

But it turned into what I did as a career. And it was not necessarily easy. But God has refined me through the process.

 

And so, my first book Made Like Martha came out in 2018. And then I have dabbled in fiction books as well. And then I have a Bible study that is out now.

 

God, What Do I Do? based on Judges one through five. So, I kind of write a little bit of everything. And it's been a wild and wonderful journey.

 

Laura Dugger: (3:01 - 3:07) Wild and wonderful for sure. Going back to that bucket list, have the other ones also become realities as well?

 

Katie Reid: (3:08 - 3:28) You know, I have sang the national anthem at some not  professional sporting events, but, you know, high school events and that kind of thing at my college. I have made an apple pie. My mom is a quilter and I just decided she can do that.

 

I kind of removed that off the list. But now I can check off, write a book.

 

Laura Dugger: (3:28 - 3:53) That's incredible, which is a huge undertaking. So, thank you for your labor of love. And even going back, I love how you've identified that you kind of relate more to the Martha personality rather than the Mary personality.

 

So, can you define what that means and share some of the benefits and the drawbacks of each personality leaning?

 

Katie Reid: (3:54 - 6:41) Sure. So, in the Bible, in Luke 10:38-42, we meet two sisters, Martha and Mary, and they had a brother, Lazarus, as well, and they were friends of Jesus. And Martha it seems like your firstborn type A, you know, to do list kind of gal.

 

And Mary was like a disciple of Jesus sitting at his feet, maybe more relationally driven. And so, when I read this story that has, you know, Martha gets a lot of flack because a lot of people like, “Oh, we need to all be like Mary.” And so, this story, I always wanted it to go differently.

 

Martha goes to Jesus. She's worried and distracted by all her preparations. She's housing or hosting Jesus and his disciples at her home.

 

And Mary's sitting there listening to Jesus teaching. And so, Martha goes to Jesus and says in the Katy paraphrase, “Hey, Jesus, I'm here doing this all by myself. Tell Mary to get off her duff and help me.”

 

And I so, Laura, wanted Jesus to say, “Martha, you are right. Mary, get in there and help your sister.” But that's not what he did.

 

And so, I want to take a closer look at the story and see what did God really say? Because I think over time, we've probably read books or heard different sermons that paints Martha in a certain light. And I wanted to see for myself, you know, have we added things to this that aren't really there?

 

And what I discovered is, you know, Jesus made us. We know this from Psalm 139 on purpose and for a purpose and intricately. And so, it was no mistake that Martha was made to do and to get things done.

 

But she got a little out of whack kind of with her heart posture, as I say, you know, kind of trying to strive and earn versus working from a place of love. She was working for love and she already had that love right there in Jesus in her home. And so, that's what Made Like Martha is about.

 

But I see how, you know, a lot of us are a blend of both of these women, you know, task oriented, relational oriented. But I think we lean more one way or the other. But the world needs all kinds of people in it.

 

And so, I think sometimes we view it as a competition when actually it's just different. But we can never go wrong with sitting at Jesus's feet. But also, we can be at peace and settled on the inside in our relationship with the Lord, even when our hands are busy.

 

Because if we just all sit, things will not get done. And, you know, we are both busy moms, Laura. And, you know, there's just there's a to do list every day, isn't there?

 

Laura Dugger: (6:41 - 7:00) There is. But you are someone who really does excel at getting those things done. Like you said, it's in your wiring from the Lord.

 

So, what tips can you share with all of us? And maybe starting with how does that specifically look for getting things done around our home?

 

Katie Reid: (7:01 - 8:47) Yes, I think there's a resource I have on my website that we can share in the show notes, and it's called the “All Done Calendar.” And I don't know about you, Laura, but my to do list can have like 25 things on it, which is just very unrealistic. Right.

 

I am not going to get 25 things done in a day. And so, I created this all done calendar and it's a blank calendar. It's got some pretty designs on it.

 

And what you do is you write down a few things each day that you actually got done. And cleaning half of the bathroom can totally count. You don't even have to do the whole thing.

But it's a way to celebrate what you've already done instead of just being fixated on all there's left to do. And so, that's something that helps me is to be like, OK, I did not get the 25 things done. But what with the Lord's help did I get done?

 

And sometimes I might have had these really lofty goals, but maybe instead I had a meaningful conversation with my team. Or maybe instead I left the dishes and sat down and watched a movie with my family and likely fell asleep 10 minutes in because I sat down. But I think we can just feel, especially in this Pinterest world and comparison with social media, we can feel like we're behind all the time.

 

And so, this all done calendar is just a really practical way to just look back over the month and be like, look what I did do. And sure, there could be lots of things left, but it's a way to just remind ourselves of what we have in that gratitude. I call it a lavish list instead of a lack list.

 

You know, instead of counting all the things you don't have, give thanks for all the things you do.

 

Laura Dugger: (8:48 - 9:05) Wow. And that gratitude really does change everything when our mindset is changed. Do you have any other tips that you use then for meal planning or logistics?

 

Because you can introduce us to your family as well. You've got quite a few kids with your husband.

 

Katie Reid: (9:05 - 11:47) We do. We have five kids. The oldest is almost 21. She's a girl. Our youngest is a girl also, and she's almost nine. And then we have three boys in the middle, 18, 16, and 12.

 

And so, we are a lively and a loud family. I think for me with meal planning, I actually do enjoy cooking and my daughter had a lot of culinary training. So, I know some women are just like, it happens every day and I don't like it.

 

But what I often do with our busy schedule is on Saturday or maybe Sunday afternoon, I like to cook things in bulk. So, maybe I'll make a soup and some taco meat and put pulled pork in the crock pot so that we can kind of eat off that. And during the week, I kind of batch cook.

 

So, I don't feel like I'm doing it all the time. And we also from a young age have equipped our kids to make their food. I remember we had someone stay with us, Laura, and they were like almost appalled.

 

They're like, “I mean, these young kids just got up and made their own food. Where was the mom?” And my husband said, “That's actually what we've trained them to do.”

 

I mean, they were getting like cereal. The other day, the baby of the family is almost nine and we do probably too much for her as one tends to do with their youngest child. And so, I equipped her and empowered her.

 

I said, “You know, Lark, you can make your own eggs.” And so, sure enough, she got a stool. I just reminded her to spray the pan and turn off the oven.

 

And she made herself, you know, eggs with bacon bits in it. And you can see that sense of pride. She was a little hesitant at first.

 

But I believe in working smarter, not harder. And so, we do divvy up, you know, chores around the house. In fact, I dare not say this too loudly.

 

But when I started writing, my husband said to our kids who were quite a lot younger at the time, “Guess what? Mom's not doing the dishes anymore. So, you guys are each going to have a night or two. And you're going to do those because we want her to be faithful to what God has also asked her to do. And you guys need to learn how to do this.” And so, Laura, when they first started loading the dishwasher, I had to fold my hands because they were not doing it in the way I would have envisioned.

 

But it was still getting it done. So, I have this little mantra. If someone else can do it with at least 75 percent, you know, effectiveness, then that should be good enough.

 

Because I think sometimes as women, we kind of want it my way or the highway. But then we wear ourselves out because we're trying to control or manage everything. And sometimes 75 percent is good enough.

 

Laura Dugger: (11:48 - 12:21) Katie, you sound like a wonderful mother. I think that's such a gift to your kids. Their studies show doing chores and being more self-sufficient, being trained that way is beneficial to them across the board.

 

So, I applaud you. Well done. But another one of your sweet spots that you seem to get after is healthy living.

 

And so, I'd love to know, what are some of your most beneficial lifestyle changes that you've implemented in your family? And now they've led to the greatest results.

 

Katie Reid: (12:22 - 15:12) Yeah, so, one of the things we do as a family is we go to the chiropractor. And I know that some people have mixed feelings about that, but we love our chiropractor. And, you know, I'll probably get the statistics, you know, not quite right.

I'm a creative brain versus a very logical brain. But I do know there are many health benefits to chiropractic care. It boosts your immune system.

 

I can for me personally, some of the benefits is I used to get vertigo sometimes, which is a terrible thing if you've never had it, where the room is like spinning and I'd have to just lay in bed, which is not a great thing, you know, for our busy lifestyle. And so, I have less vertigo. I can move my head back and forth freely and lots of other things.

 

But one thing that was interesting, and we did interview my chiropractor on the Martha & Mary Show on the podcast, is there's so many things that can be benefits to it. And at my age, I'm almost 48. I can see 50 from a distance.

 

And my friends and I, Laura, are talking about our bodies so much. We are now like our moms would do. And even going to the bathroom more regularly can be a benefit of chiropractic care or, you know, your cramps not being as bad, all that.

 

So, that's one of the things we have done. This year, we are trying to walk a lot more. So, my husband and I and our two youngest children, we have this little half hour route that we do.

And we were even doing it in the middle of winter. And then as things have gotten busier, that's fallen a little bit by the wayside, but just fresh air. We have some great conversations.

 

And the other thing, too, is I don't know if you're like this, Laura, but during COVID, we put on a lot of weight and we didn't realize it. We could see it in other people, but we went to the doctor and I was shocked by what I weighed. And I went to a naturopath and I just said, “Can you help me?”

 

And so, I thought I was taking good care of myself, Laura. But looking back, I surely was not. And a lot of it was what I was eating.

 

I was not drinking enough water. So, anyway, that helped to just the education of that our food has such an impact. And so, really it you know, we are not like health freaks by any means, but trying to have more vegetables, some healthy options.

 

I had no idea what a big deal protein was. I just didn't know, you know, as kids who ate SpaghettiOs and, you know, mac and cheese growing up in the 80s. There just wasn't as much out there about, you know, that connection with what you're putting in your body and how you're feeling.

 

Laura Dugger: (15:13 - 18:23) That's such a good point. I love hearing these habits and I very much enjoyed that episode that you did with your chiropractor. We'll have to link to that as well in the show notes.

 

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Katie, you're such a go-getter and in the midst of homeschooling and writing this book, you also still pursue personal development and spiritual growth. So, do you have any systems or rhythms in place to support that growth?

 

Katie Reid: (18:24 - 21:43) Yeah, I think a couple of them. I often want to talk to people, talk about the Mary and Martha event. Some people are that way with Bible study and prayer. There are some who just love to study the Bible. There’re others who lead with prayer. I've been the Bible study girl. I love to study, you know, as a teacher. Maybe that's just my thing. But prayer was something that I felt like I was always getting like a D minus in. And it's not that I never would, Laura, but, you know, I just have a friend, Lee, who co-hosts The Martha & Mary Show with me, and she is a prayer, a pray-er. And so, one of the things I did was I know accountability is key in developing healthy practices, whether that's physically or spiritually or emotionally.

 

And so, we started a mom's prayer group at our church that meets most Fridays throughout the year because I knew, I mean, surely I wasn't going to just pray on Fridays. But I knew if I had that group and I was helping lead it and show up that that would be a discipline that would get into my life. And it really has, but it just felt very daunting.

 

Another tip my friend gave me just with incorporating more prayer is to have like a trigger. So, every time you open a door to pray or every time you interact with water, let it serve as a reminder to pray. And again, I just need that kind of accountability in my life. I can get distracted easily.

 

And so, that was just another thing that helped me to just have that in the forefront of my mind. And I also feel like having teen and young adult children, you will just start praying much more naturally because you realize that your influence is shifting. You're more of a coach and a support than you are kind of that direct supervisor. And so, God gave me this phrase of like, "Prayer is the way sometimes we got to parenting, but prayer is also what we need to get through parenting."

 

And so, I have been doing much more prayer lately, but I just encourage the listeners, whether it's Bible study or prayer, which are essential to our spiritual growth, grab a friend and ask them, you know, you could text each other in the mornings, like, "Hey, I'm praying for you about this. Or will you pray about this?" But it is when we link arms, we have more effectiveness, I think, because we're not just trying to do it on our own. And I feel like in our culture, especially with all the pressures of, you know, social media and all of that, we try to be all things to our family, like, you know, grow organic vegetables and sew our kids' clothes and homeschool and you fill in the blank. But yet it's so much more accessible done in community. For example, I love batch cooking. So, maybe I could make an extra lasagna for someone and then I don't love to fold laundry, but maybe my friend comes over and we fold laundry together. I just think we can be so isolated. And we're missing out on sharing our strengths with others and them with us. And I just think family life is best done in community, if at all possible.

 

Laura Dugger: (21:44 - 22:15) That's so wise and so practical. I love that. Even the tip of when you interact with water to pray. That's really helpful. And speaking of spiritual growth, I do want to highlight some parts of your amazing book, which, as you said, it's entitled, God, What Do I Do? So, I want to just dive into a couple of the sections, beginning with, "God, what do I do with what you've given me?" So, Katie, can you just expound on that topic?

 

Katie Reid: (22:15 - 23:38) Yeah, for sure. So, we've all been given time, talents, treasures. You've probably heard those three Ts before. And at the end of my life, Laura, I want to be able to stand before the Lord and by His grace say that I was a faithful steward with what He has entrusted me. And I think we often are told, particularly as women, to keep everything in balance. And I don't know about you, Laura, but that just feels like pressure to me. Like, surely I'm going to drop one of these plates I'm spinning.

And so, I like to think about it as being a faithful steward with what's right in front of me, because that feels more manageable. And yes, we still need the Lord's help to do that. But right now, we're doing this interview. So, I want to be a faithful steward of that. And then next, I'm going to go hang out with my college roommates and we're going to have a little reunion. And I want to be faithful with that. But I think we can get really overwhelmed when we're just trying to do everything perfectly. And in the study, we talk about faithfully stewarding the people, position, and place that God has put you in or that's before you. And I think that happens one decision at a time. And again, it feels more manageable when we think about it like that.

 

Laura Dugger: (23:39 - 23:48) I love that. I even love the questions that you ask about those specifics. Do you want to share those three questions?

 

Katie Reid: (23:49 - 26:27) Yeah. So, we talk about, you know, what people have you been entrusted with? What position have you been entrusted with? And what place have you been entrusted with? And I think that helps us recognize our purpose as well, like in the current season that we're in. But going back to the time, talents and treasures, you know, time, I feel like right now is such a precious commodity. And we talk about, you know, at church, like tithing your finances. But the idea I've heard people explain, what does it look like to tithe your time?

 

And I can cram so many things into the day that my husband and I are walking through this process of me having more margin in my life, more white space. And that's a part of stewarding our time. It doesn't mean we have to burn out and just run ragged. You know, we see this pattern in Jesus' life. He would minister and then He would retreat and recharge and then He'd minister. And I think there's some unhealth that we see in our culture and even in my own home with sometimes of just the unrealistic expectations I have.

 

And life happens. We could have a perfectly executed plan. But then this is a true story. The dog ate chocolate and we have to run for an emergency vet visit. Or I don't know about you, Laura, but you know, sometimes my kids want to have deep conversations at a time that is very inconvenient. But we want to take advantage of those times and take that opportunity.

 

And so, just going before the Lord and saying, "God, you have given me time. You've given me talents. You've given me treasures. And I want to faithfully steward them. Show me how to move forward in a way that honors you." And I think we have to be careful sometimes. I think we need to put some blinders on because what you are called to might be totally different than what your sister is called to or what I'm called to. And that we need to listen and have the abiding relationship with the Lord because we need to faithfully steward what He's asked us to do, not what He's asked someone else to do. And so, I love that word, too. What God has "entrusted" to us, again, could look a lot of different ways. But He doesn't require perfection. That's why Jesus came, because we couldn't do it. And He's with us in it. And we want to move forward with Him as we manage the people and the place and the position that He's entrusted to us.

 

Laura Dugger: (26:27 - 27:14) Oh, that's so good. And just to dig a little deeper then, too, I feel like I'm in a similar place where I sense the Lord asking me this week, asking me to ask Him, "What pace do you want me to be living at? What pace is healthy and sustainable? And what changes do I need to make?" So, I feel like I'm just on the beginning of this journey. But if you and your husband have already been diving in to margin, which is a word that I feel like I could answer with, and maybe slowing down a little bit, how do you do that? You're a creative as well, and you've got all these ideas and these good things that you want to go after. Do you have any practical parameters or pieces of discernment in place to know how to create margin as well?

 

Katie Reid: (27:15 - 29:12) Yeah, I think one thing that I am still learning is that “yes" has a cost to it, right? Now, of course, if Jesus asked us to do something, we want to say yes, regardless of the cost. But let's say someone asked me if I would write an article for a website and I'm launching these books. That sounds like a great idea. But Laura, sometimes I forget what that yes will mean. That's going to be at least three hours of time. And so, to almost look at the ask and associate them with time. And so, while that's a great thing, I also have kids that are in sports right now, and I don't want to miss those sports. Or could I use an article I've used before? Do they want original content? And so, I think with our yes’ and no’s, just thinking about, again, unless it's an obedience thing where the Lord has just made it so clear.

 

The other thing my husband often says to me is, "OK, Katie, that is a great opportunity. But what is going to come off of your plate to make room for that?" Where I can just keep heaping it on and it's spilling on a potluck when you overfill your plate and it's all spilling out and just making a mess. And so, that's another thing of like, "OK, what will come off?" I also run things by my husband or a close friend to say I have this opportunity for this. "What do you think?" Because sometimes we have those blind spots where we can't see what that might mean in the future. So, kind of a board of advisors, if you will, people who know you well know your personality. And just because it's a good idea doesn't mean it's a bad idea. And that can be so hard, especially if we're good at something. Sometimes we think it's an automatic yes, but we have to evaluate the season that we are in as well.

 

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The word discernment comes to mind with your book. It's a lot of discernment, a lot of these questions as we're turning to God. So, can you share any of the parts of the section that you wrote about, "God, What Do I Do Next?"

 

Katie Reid: (30:27 - 34:11) Absolutely. You know, I'm a pretty decisive person, but I know a lot of people are not, and they can be overwhelmed. I mean, even at the grocery store, if we're trying to pick out cereal or Band-Aids even, there are so many options that it can just become overwhelming. We're inundated by information. And so, I think when we are not sure what to do next, there are things we actually can decide, even if we don't specifically know what to do about a situation. And that's a lot of what is found in God, What Do I Do?.

 

And we follow the Israelites as they're entering the Promised Land. They made some not great choices sometimes, and they made some good choices sometimes. But the idea of their leader had died and they needed to know what to do next. And one of the first things they do, we see in Judges 1:1, is they inquire of the Lord. They go to the Lord and ask Him what they're supposed to do. And Laura, we can never go wrong doing that.

 

I have a dear friend who told me one time, "Katie, I don't like praying out loud because I just have really simple prayers. They are not eloquent." And I reassured her, you know what? SOS prayers totally count. So, if you find yourself in a situation where you do not know what to do next: "Lord, help me. Lord, I need you." You cannot go wrong praying those prayers. And there's actually, the Bible study goes through six decisions we can make, even if we don't know specifically what to do. And the first one in the introductory lesson is the decision to remember.

The more kids I've had and the older I've gotten, I get a little more forgetful. I used to be so good at Memory, that game. And now it's like, I don't know, I'm going to pick the same ones every time. We can be forgetful. But when we recount God's faithfulness in the Bible and also what He's done in our own lives, it can help us make more clear-headed decisions. We have this little box in our home that we decorated back in the scrapbooking days. And inside it, we have a couple pictures and objects that remind us of things God has done for us in the past. One of the things He had asked us to do when we did not have much money, we were getting ready to move across the country and we had two vehicles. And we could have really used the money from the vehicle, one of our vehicles, but the Lord put on both my heart and my husband's heart to give away a vehicle.

 

And so many people, even Christian believers close to us, Laura, were like, "I don't know, that doesn't seem very wise." But we knew God's voice. We knew what He was asking and it was such a blessing in it. And so, we have a picture of that car, and we have that in the box. And so, I have not done a great job of pulling the box out a lot, especially with our younger kids. But it's just kind of those memorial stones of "Remember how God did this."

 

I remember one time we were having car difficulties, and I told the family, I said, "You know, wouldn't it be great if someone at church just handed us an envelope with the money we need to repair this vehicle?" And my kids kind of rolled their eyes. "Oh, there's mom and her big faith again." And Laura, wouldn't you know it, someone came up to my husband and said, "We just want to gift you this." And it was like $200 and it was exactly what we needed. And so, it's like stories like that to remember God has been faithful in the past. He will continue to be faithful, even if I don't know specifically what to do about a situation. He will be with me in it.

 

Laura Dugger: (34:12 - 34:42) Wow, that is incredible. And those spiritual markers build confidence and faith in us with our own journey. But like you said, passing them along to the next generation, that is huge and sharing these stories of God's faithfulness. And this is just such a small sample of your book, because I just want to make sure we highlight one other piece, but you share this insight about one part of the question, "God, what do I do to encourage those around me?"

 

Katie Reid: (34:43 - 36:25) Yes. So, we look in Judges 4, we met a judge Deborah and there was a military commander named Barak. And so, Deborah was a prophetess and judge, and she goes to Barak and reminds him of what God has already told him. Isn't that a good friend? And she said, "Hey, hasn't God said," and then reminds him. And you know what I love about this is we see this collaboration for the Kingdom.

 

And maybe it's more of an exhortation than an encouragement. But then later on in Judges 5, there's the song that Deborah and Barak sing. And part of the song is they are calling out those that helped them in battle. And, you know, it's an encouragement. They also call out those who didn't help in a different kind of call out way. But sometimes it bolsters our faith.

 

If someone else speaks into our life and says, "I see this in you." And a lot of times we think that encouragement, but we don't give voice to it. And I can look back over my life when people have taken the time to encourage me. It's like we cling to those words to keep going. Something we do at our church is the last Sunday of the month we have testimony time. And it is so encouraging to hear what God is doing in other people's lives. And in our own struggles, it can really bolster our faith to keep holding on and to celebrate what He's doing in them. So, I think giving credit to God for what He's done in testimony can really help encourage those around us as well.

 

Laura Dugger: (36:26 - 37:12) Wow, that is awesome. I love that you do that at your church. Such a practical way to live out so much of the Bible that talks about sharing His story, sharing His faithfulness, and that we overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb, which is already taken care of, and the word of our testimony. That's so powerful. And Katie, you're just fascinating and multifaceted. And there's a piece of your bio that I just love. You say that you're an "Inspiration Doula". So, I want to hear some of your favorite ways, whether it's questions or stories or bits of wisdom, to share so that you can encourage creatives, which is hopefully all of us because we're created in our Creator God's image.

 

Katie Reid: (37:14 - 40:11) You know, Laura, I love to see what God, how He has wired different people and encouraged them to share that gift with the world. I love holding the ladder for people so they can climb higher and do more. And sometimes I think on this crazy journey of podcasting and writing and speaking, sometimes I get the sense that God is allowing me to walk through these doors so that I can turn around and help someone else do it but even go further and do more than I have.

 

Nothing brings me more joy than seeing someone using their giftings. For example, we had a writing retreat recently that really turned into a spiritual renewal retreat. And one of my friends, she is very content to stay home with her kids. She is pretty introverted, but God has given her these talents that she is using more and more. For example, she directed a skit that's, you know, at our church for Easter and did such a great job. And she has written this book that's kind of like a Little House on the Prairie-esque book. And she was working on it at the writing retreat. And, you know, she's around these other women that are speaking all over the country and doing all these things. And so, some way she's like, "What am I doing here?"

 

And we reassured her she was right where she should be. And so, this fall she's going to teach this class using her book with homeschool students. And then they're going to write their own books. And Laura, I just think it's so fun to see her using what God has placed in her hands in her sphere of influence. And so, I love to—a lot of times people just need that nudge and a little bit of cheerleading to take those next brave steps. I also sometimes they just need to see somebody else doing it to realize that they can do it too.

 

And again, it can look so many different ways from having people into your home. I have a friend named Cherry and she started a ministry called "Welcome to the Table" where once a month she welcomes women into her home. They share a meal and it has just exploded because people are hungry literally and figuratively for that kind of community. So, a lot of times my coaching looks like encouragement, looks like some practical steps that they can take. A lot of times creatives are not finishers. And I have this weird blend of creativity and administration.

 

And I just love to help people kind of have a roadmap for what would it look like to get it done. And so many people do not set deadlines, Laura. They're like, "Yes, I'm going to write that book. Or yes, I'm going to start that event. Or yes, I'm going to start a book club." But then they don't give themselves a deadline. So, even just that little tip of like tell somebody else your deadline can really help get the wheels turning.

 

Laura Dugger: (40:11 - 40:41) That's good. Again, such practical advice. And Katie, you are such a natural encourager. There's even a joy or lightheartedness in your voice and a warmth. And I love how you come alongside others and help develop them and see their dreams fulfilled. So, I love that generosity of spirit. But I also want to hear what else is coming next for you, including, will you tell us about this novel that's becoming a movie?

 

Katie Reid: (40:42 - 42:40) Yes. So, interestingly enough, when I launched my first book, Made Like Martha came out in 2018. And then I had this idea for a book about Deborah from Judges. Well, wouldn't you know, here we are seven years later and that book is finally coming out. So, in the meantime, as I was encountering a lot of closed doors about this particular book, I was like, "Well, I'm a creative and I'm a writer. And if I can't write nonfiction, I guess I'll try fiction."

 

And so, I wrote a Hallmark-like story called A Very Bavarian Christmas. We self-published it. It came out in 2020. And funny that God knew that people actually needed something lighthearted with a happy ending because I wrote it in 2019. And then when it came out, people were hunkered down and just needed that kind of feel good type of clean rom-com. And so, I call this the little book that could, Laura, because literally I got an email from Carlos from California and that it went to my spam folder. And it surely sounded like spam, but what Carlos said is, "Our team has read your book and we would like to purchase the movie rights." And so, sometime in the future, it will likely be on UP TV. There's going to be a movie based on my novel.

 

And then the sequel, A Very Bavarian Summer, has recently come out. July 5th was its release date. And it's just been such a fun journey. So, a publisher ended up picking up the series. And I was just as surprised as anyone. I was hoping it would be a movie. I kind of wrote it like that. And again, there was many voices saying, "Yeah, you know, you're not a fiction writer. So, let's kind of see how it goes." But I just knew that God had given me this story and that anything is possible. And it wasn't a guarantee. It would all turn out how I thought it would. But it's been a very fun and exciting journey for sure.

 

Laura Dugger: (42:41 - 42:52) That's incredible. So excited for you. I have to keep us posted for when we can see that. But where else can we go after this conversation to continue learning more from you?

 

Katie Reid: (42:53 - 43:51) Well, the best place is at my website, katiemreid.com. And Reid is R-E-I-D. And if you subscribe, listeners, to my website, I send out a good newsletter, I call it, once a month with all the things. I'm also on Instagram @katiem_reid. And then my books are available, Made Like Martha, God, What Do I Do?, A Very Bavarian Christmas, and A Very Bavarian Summer. And so, we're also pitching another Bible study. So, hopefully in a year or so there will be some more. But I love to resource people. My desire, whether I am writing nonfiction or fiction, is to see captives set free. Because Jesus has set me free. And I long for others to live that abundant life with Jesus. And so, that thread is throughout each resource we offer. And I would love to connect with listeners over my website or online.

 

Laura Dugger: (43:52 - 44:17) I'll make sure to link to all of that in the show notes. I love that, setting the captives free, joining that good work that Jesus is doing. And Katie, you already know that we're called The Savvy Sauce. Because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight or discernment. So, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Katie Reid: (44:18 - 45:12) Well, I am bad at small talk. I like to go deep fast. And so, I feel like my savvy sauce is asking meaningful questions. Whether that be of my spouse or my kids. And really getting to know their heart and what makes them tick. We call them quality questions.

 

And I think people are willing to open up when they feel safe, when they feel seen, and when they feel known. And so, I love to just kind of dive in deep. In fact, my husband and I will joke if we're out on a double date or something. I'll just say, "Listen, I'm bad at small talk. So, can we talk about fill in the blank?" And so, I think that's one of my savvy sauces. It might annoy some people, I guess. But I think it's really fun to watch someone talk about something they're passionate about. And just get to know them better.

 

Laura Dugger: (45:13 - 45:52) Amen to that. I love that so much. I do not think it's obnoxious or annoying or anything. I actually very much appreciate when we first met through Justin and Jenny Moss. And Justin's been a repeat guest, so I'll link to his episodes as well. But we met at their daughter's wedding. And I was instantly drawn to you. And it was near the end of the night, so we didn't get to spend as much time together as I hoped. But you have that magnetic personality. And I love even the gifts of your decisiveness. And the way that you're able to articulate all of your wisdom and share it with us. It was such a blessing. So, thank you for being my guest today.

 

Katie Reid: (45:53 - 46:04) Laura, thank you so much. And I love what you're doing with The Savvy Sauce podcast. And you are just shining and in your element. And it's so evident. And I just appreciate you.

 

 

Laura Dugger: (46:04 – 49:49) Thank you, Katie.

One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

How Launching My Husband into Outer Space Changed the Way I Live on Earth: Special Patreon Release with Stacey Morgan

“Therefore see that you walk carefully [living life with honor, purpose, and courage; shunning those who tolerate and enable evil], not as the unwise, but as wise [sensible, intelligent, discerning people], making the very most of your time [on earth, recognizing and taking advantage of each opportunity and using it with wisdom and diligence], because the days are [filled with] evil.”

Ephesians 5:15-16 AMP

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. How did God meet you in your experience of army life to reveal your choice of hope vs. fear?

2. What have you learned about community, both before and after your experience of launching your husband into space?

3. For all of us, how can we rediscover our fun side when we’ve been trapped in survival mode for too long?

 

Stacey Morgan is always ready with a funny or thoughtful story from her own life; whether it be holding down the home front during military deployments, working for the Smithsonian, skydiving, or blasting  her husband into outer space. Stacey is on staff with MOPS International, a nonprofit focused on the unique needs of mothers around the world. She and her husband, Army colonel and NASA astronaut Drew Morgan, have four children.

 

Connect with Stacey on Instagram or through her website.

 

Other Savvy Sauce Episodes Related to Friendship:

Friendship with Drew Hunter

Reflecting Jesus in Our Relationships with Rach Kincaid

Nurturing Friendships with Jackie Coleman

Art of Friendship with Kim Wier

 

Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and The Savvy Sauce Charities (and donate online here)

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:09)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 2:54) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. I want to say a huge thank you to today's sponsors for this episode, Chick-fil-A East Peoria and Savvy Sauce Charities.

 

Are you interested in a free college education for you or someone you know? Stay tuned for details coming later in this episode from today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. You can also visit their website today at https://www.chick-fil-a.com/locations/il/east-peoria.

 

I'm so excited to share a special Patreon re-release episode. And if you've been with The Savvy Sauce for a while, you know that we used to make some money by having people sign up for Patreon and as a reward, they would get access to special episodes. Now we have done away with that as we've transitioned to becoming a nonprofit, and we want to make all of these episodes available to you, so we re-release a few every year.

 

What I'd love to ask is, as we're approaching the end of year because we've taken out that revenue stream, would you consider financially supporting Savvy Sauce Charities?

 

There are two simple ways. First, if you want to mail us a check, that saves us all of the processing fees, and you can make that out to Savvy Sauce Charities and mail it to P.O. Box 101, Roanoke, Illinois 61561. Also, if you want to go online, visit thesavvysauce.com and you can type in different words to the search button. You could type in “donate” or “support” and it should take you to the place where there's a button to click and put in your credit card information and give that way. We would be so grateful for any amount, and we love our partnership with you.

 

Here's our chat.

 

Stacey Morgan is my guest today, and you may have heard her name in the news over the past few years. She has documented her story in her debut book, The Astronaut's Wife: How Launching My Husband into Outer Space Changed the Way I Live on Earth. And now she's going to share more about that season and all the lessons God taught her about making the most of her one incredible life, and she's going to inspire each of us to do the same.

 

Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Stacey.

 

Stacey Morgan: (2:55 - 2:58) I am so excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

 

Laura Dugger: (2:58 - 3:07) Well, it is truly my pleasure. And will you just start by giving us a little bit more context for our time together and just share a few things about yourself?

 

Stacey Morgan: (3:08 - 4:49) Sure. Well, hi, my name is Stacey. I currently live in Texas.

 

I have four kids. I'm married to a guy named Drew who has kind of an unusual job. I grew up in a small town just outside of Boston and was kind of a scholar-athlete growing up interested in a lot of different things but always involved in church and youth group. And that really served me well when I went off to college.

 

The first college I went to, West Point. And actually, I'll tell you in a minute, but that is where I eventually met my now husband, Drew.

 

We got married after I graduated from undergrad. He's a little bit older than me and he is an Army officer. And so, we have moved all over the country. We've lived on both coasts and had a number of kinds of unusual situations just, you know, kind of typical for a military family living all over the place.

 

I've had a lot of crazy jobs. I think mainly I have an unusual story because I'm really quick to say yes to things, which sometimes, you know, it's a double-edged sword. Sometimes you say yes and you realize, “I should have thought through that a little bit more.” But really it's been quite an adventure because we have had the opportunity to live in a lot of different places, experience a lot of different things.

 

And we ended up here in 2013. We can kind of get into that if you want, but we ended up down here in Texas with my husband, who is still an Army officer, but he became a NASA astronaut. And so, that totally changed the direction of our lives and kind of changing all the plans we had for what we were supposed to be doing in the military and ending up down here at Johnson Space Center. Then, him eventually launching into outer space.

 

Laura Dugger: (4:49 - 5:01) Wow, there are so many points to unpack, but let's back it up to what you had mentioned about West Point. So, will you just elaborate and tell us more about how you and Drew met and fell in love?

 

Stacey Morgan: (5:01 - 7:21) Sure. So, we were both cadets at West Point when we met. He was a little bit older than me, but we met through Officers' Christian Fellowship, which is a Christian club that is very popular on military bases, both at the academies but in big Army and other services as well when you get out.

 

It's a, you know, it's like small groups, typical for what most people would find comfortable in kind of church community. And so, we met there and we just kind of clicked, you know.

 

I would say it's funny looking back, we were not the type of people I think we would have thought we would marry. He was far more serious than I am. I'm a little bit more, I’m the one to more kind of like walk the fine line, but we work together really well.

 

We've always been a great team. That's always been a real theme in our marriage, you know, that we are a team. And, you know, when he proposed after I graduated from undergrad, he kind of said, “I promise you a life of adventure,” which at the time sounded wonderful and adorable.

 

Of course, it has come back to haunt me several times when he has been, you know, come up with some crazy plan and when I hesitate he's like, “I promised you adventure.” And I'm like, “Now that's unfair. I did not know when you said adventure back in 2000 that you meant all these crazy things like going to space or all these different deployments and all this kind of stuff like that.”

 

So, we now have four kids. We've been married this summer will be 22 years. And, you know, it hasn't been without its challenges like any marriage and certainly any marriage under stress because of stressful situations, whether that's military deployments, whether that's space travel or just kind of life and parenting. And as you kind of grow up together and get to know each other and the world changes around you, we've certainly had ups and downs, but we are a team.

 

And I think God has really honored that and it's been really helpful for us when we've had those sticky seasons where you just feel like, “Man, we are just not connecting or kind of jiving the way we would want,” to actually say to each other that we are on the same team and that has been really helpful.

 

Laura Dugger: (7:22 - 7:40) The part of your story that involves space travel is one that most of us will never be able to relate to experientially, but it's still extraordinary. So, can you walk us through the detailed events leading up to 9:28 p.m. on July 20th, 2019?

 

Stacey Morgan: (7:42 - 15:28) Sure. So, I should back it up one big step behind that just to give everybody a little context. So, in 2012, we were kind of living our lives. We had always been deep into the Army Special Operations community. We love that. In order to live and kind of thrive in that environment you have to be all in, and we were all in.

 

And one day my husband came home and he was uncharacteristically giddy and he said, “You're not gonna believe this huge news. NASA is opening up the application window for a new class of astronauts.”

 

And I thought, “Why are you telling me this? This has no bearing whatsoever on our lives. We are on this path and that is a completely different path.”

 

And he said, “Well, I want to apply.”

 

And I thought to myself, “Well, I wanted to be a ballerina at one point in life, but that ship sailed. Like who doesn't say they always wanted to be an astronaut? Like this seems like a childhood fantasy.”

 

But he said, “No, I just want to apply. Like don't worry, all of our plans are gonna stay the same. They've never selected an Army physician before. I just, you know, I want to...” You know, the joke was that you'll always be a NASA applicant, right? And that'll be great. We'll laugh about it at family Christmases and stuff.

 

Except he kept making it through every gate. And so, in 2013 we got the call that completely took our life off of one set of train tracks and put it on another. At that time, we were currently stationed just outside of Washington DC at Fort Belvoir. We were supposed to be literally the next week moving to Germany. And that's how close these changes kind of came up on themselves. And so, we had to unravel everything for Germany and move to Houston, Texas, because that's where Johnson Space Center is.

 

And so, he began his training in 2013. I started my journey in learning a whole new culture, a whole new way of doing life. I'd never lived in a place that was at least not near a military base or within a military community. Didn't quite recognize at the time how much that shared sense of community had made things easier in terms of connecting with people before that and when I didn't have it.

 

So, it was probably our rockiest transition for me personally that I'd ever had in terms of friendships and getting connected. That's a big part of my story because I think friendship struggles are so common for adult women. It's just something that nobody really teaches us how to do and so a lot of women are very lonely.

 

But fast forward, he trained for several years until it was eventually his turn to fly. And in 2019, the only way to get to the International Space Station was to fly on a Russian Soyuz rocket. So, some people are very confused because they think, “Well, every space movie I've ever watched is taking place in Florida, right? Whether that's Apollo 13 or Armageddon or whatever. Why didn't he launch from Florida?”

 

Well, between 2011 and 2020, the Space Shuttle program had ended. SpaceX Crew Dragon had not yet started launching from Florida again. So, for about a 10-year period, the only way to get to and from the International Space Station was to ride a Russian rocket.

 

So, that's what NASA did. They went into partnership with the Russians, which of course makes things very interesting given today's kind of current political climate and all the world events. But that meant when it was Drew's turn to launch, we as a family had to travel to Kazakhstan, which is a country that I could not spell before 2019.

 

And so, if you don't know where that is, don't feel bad. I didn't either. I had to look it up. It's a former Soviet Republic really kind of in between Russia and Afghanistan. So, it is in the middle of nowhere. And when the Soviets were building their space program in the 1950s and 60s, they built their secret space city there in Kazakhstan. That's where they started their space program and they have kind of kept it unchanged and they continue to launch their rockets from there today.

 

It was a whole kind of world travel and cultural experience to take my four kids to Kazakhstan, which is a completely different cultural experience for really what came down to a very stressful, very emotional moment really waiting for that launch. So, unlike Florida, which you know when you watch on television, it's colorful, there's a lot of people, a lot of spectators, big people remember from the shuttle days big countdown clock, a loudspeaker kind of telling everybody what's going on... that's not how it is in Kazakhstan.

 

So, about 30 minutes before the launch, the kids and I were brought to this viewing area. And by viewing area I would say big field. It's not... there was kind of some grandstands area far at the other end of the field, but that's where all the space tourists stand and the press and all that kind of stuff and we didn't want to be near them. So, our escort brought us down to the end, the other end of the field, and it's just dark and it's quiet and there's no announcements. There's no countdown clock. It's just looking at your watch or your phone there just kind of in the dark and you just know that that Russian ground crew is going to launch that rocket at exactly 9:28 p.m. Not a minute earlier, not a minute later.

 

And so, standing there in the dark holding my kids' hands, and we can see the rocket in the distance only about a mile away, which by rocket launch standards is very close. Knowing that in a minute or 30 seconds or 10 seconds as it gets closer, it's either going to be one of the best days of your life, super exciting, super proud moment, or it's going to be the worst day of your life, and you could become a widow.

 

And as much as it's easy to kind of get complacent because incidents are so rare, but we all can remember any number of space disasters that have happened. Columbia, Challenger, those are very real. And with my time down here at Johnson Space Center, you come to learn those names and you meet those families and you meet those widows and widowers and you realize that space travel is dangerous. You know, at the end of the day my husband was in a little tiny capsule on top of a rocket full of highly explosive fuel. So, it's very scary.

 

And in that moment standing there thinking, “In 10 seconds my life is going to change no matter what happens.” Even if this goes perfectly, what happens next? I don't really know. It's kind of like having a baby. You can read all about it and assume things will be the way they're going to be, but until you're in it and then it happens, you don't really know how it's gonna go.

 

And so, it was a really overwhelmingly emotional moment because you think this could go sideways. And also, by the way, the world is watching live with me. So, if something goes wrong, I'm not able to process this privately. I will be experiencing it in real time with the rest of the world.

 

But even if it goes perfectly, what happens next? Like what does it look like to live on earth with a spouse in space and single parent for nine plus months while their other parent is in space? And you really don't know and it's scary to think like, “Gosh, what if something happens?” You know, he can't like come home early. Can't just like a business trip jump on a plane or a train and get home early. There's no coming back early. So, whatever happens, I'm on my own for better or worse. I'm on my own and I hope I have the endurance and the support system and everything I'm gonna need in order to be successful in this nine months.

 

Laura Dugger: (15:28 - 15:47) And my heart is pounding a little bit faster just as I hear you describe this. And I'd love to get back to your story, but first just to pause and wonder with that mixture of this adventure right in front of you and then your experience of army life, how did God meet you in all of that to reveal your choice of you're able to choose hope or fear?

 

Stacey Morgan: (15:47 - 22:32) Right. So, you know, when you take the time to step back and think, sometimes you don't see these patterns in your life until you kind of start putting them down on paper. And it was interesting for me to see how God had prepared me for that moment with other moments, especially related to military deployments in the past. Because certainly experiencing a rocket launch and all that fear and kind of this moment of where is my hope found in this moment, that was a varsity level moment.

 

But I'm so thankful that about ten years earlier God really started to prepare me for that moment with some other big moments. Like when my husband deployed for the first time.

 

I'll never forget, it was the height of the War on Terror. So, we were living in a military community which was amazing and a lot of my friends' husbands were also serving in the same military units or similar military units and they were deploying. The tempo was high so that meant, you know, six months deployed or longer, coming home for short amounts of time and then deploying again. Lots of action specifically in Afghanistan and Iraq at the time.

 

And so, lots of fatalities, lots of injuries, lots of grief, and for spouses a lot of fear because we knew what they were doing was very dangerous. And so, for me and my friends we kind of had this unspoken rule which I think a lot of people can understand which was, “Let's just not talk about this scariest thing because somehow talking about it makes it seem more possible.”

 

And as crazy as that is to say, people get that. You know, there's a lot of things we don't talk about because it's just too scary to think about. And so, for us the scariest thing in our life at that time was the fear that our husbands would not come home, that they would be killed in action. And that felt very real because we were going to memorial services, we were visiting people in the hospital, we were turning on the news and seeing what was going on in the world. And there was often communication blackouts because we knew that they were doing things that were very dangerous, very secretive.

 

And so, at the time I happily did what everybody else was doing which was, “Let's just not talk about it. Let's just kind of live life managing.” We felt like we were managing this fear, I think that's what I would have said at the time.

 

But then one day my friend Lisa, who's an amazing friend and she's always like two steps ahead of me on the wisdom scale, we were having coffee on her front porch and she turned to me and she said, “I've been thinking a lot about what life would be like if our husbands were killed.”

 

And this was like a bomb drop. I mean because we just were not supposed to be talking about this. Like here the rest of us had been avoiding all morbid thoughts about what could possibly happen with our husband and instead she had like turned and looked it straight in the eye.

 

And I was shocked. And so, I kind of sat up straighter and I said, “What do you mean?”

 

And she said, “Well, I've been thinking about it and it's not that, you know, life would certainly be hard and doesn't mean we wouldn't need counseling or our kids wouldn't need support, but life would still go on even if that happened. Life would still go on. Life would still be full of good things and God would provide and bring people around us to support us and I've just been thinking about that.”

 

And I was stunned. I was absolutely stunned because while the rest of us were too afraid to face that fear, in looking at it she kind of exposed it for what it was, which was certainly real and an absolute possibility that that could happen. But when she started walking down the path of like, “Okay, if this happened then what would happen?” You have to decide, “Do I believe God would really be with me or not? Do I believe His promises are true that He will be with me on good days and bad days and that He will draw people to me who will love me and support me? And have I plugged myself into friends and a faith community that would be there for me if that happened?”

 

And it was a game changer. That was probably one of, at the time, the biggest life-changing conversations I'd ever had as an adult because it really did shift how I viewed feeling afraid about things like that. And so, I had several opportunities... Drew deployed several times and then certainly doesn't take combat deployments to feel afraid like that. I know I have felt it before when my daughter was in the NICU, you know, and I had to leave her in the NICU and go home at night. I know I have felt it during this pandemic several times. I know I'm gonna feel it when I drop my oldest off at college this summer. You know, this moment where it just life feels very scary mainly because of the unknowns that come next and the fact that you have no control over those.

 

And so, that rocket launch moment was, you know, I felt like God was really prompting me in that moment to say, “Hey, if this rocket explodes like what will you do with that? Do you still trust me that I'm here with you and that I will still bring people to you and love you? Like is your support, is your foundation and your hope truly found in me or is it found in this rocket launch going successfully? Because it might not, and then what does that mean for you?”

 

And so, it really was this choice of am I gonna choose to live a life of fear, which is our default because if you do not choose something else we will always live a life dictated by fear of something. It's exhausting to live like that because once you conquer one fear another one's gonna pop up. Then they come in bunches and they just start layering on top of each other. Honestly it can lead to despair because there's plenty of things in the world to be afraid of and new ones just pop up every day.

 

So instead, I felt like God was offering me a new way of living and it really felt tangible in that moment of that rocket launch which is, “Hey, I hope that you will choose to find your hope in me. Just me. The one unchanging thing in this world that will be unchanging regardless of what happens with this rocket launch in 10 seconds. But if it goes well or if it goes poorly I am unchanging. You can rely on me. I will be with you in the best and the worst of times. And even if the rocket launch goes successfully and whatever happens in the next nine months, I'm with you there as well. So, you don't need to be afraid because I'm here with you. You can have hope that I will enable you to do what must be done no matter what happens tomorrow.”

 

Laura Dugger: (22:32 - 22:49) I'm so grateful that you chose hope and you chose faith. And then after all of that excitement and that adrenaline experienced on launch day, what did your life look like in the months to follow?

 

Stacey Morgan: (22:49 - 26:47) Yeah, it wasn't easy. You know I joke that those nine months really were like it was like a master class in all these little lessons I've learned throughout the years, but I'd never had to put them into practice at this level and all at the same time.

 

So, things like being honest about that I needed help. That, you know, there are times in the past where I have certainly wanted people to know or think that I had it all together and that I could do it all by myself especially, you know, I think every mom feels that way.

 

Certainly, military spouses, we take a lot of pride and feel like I'm doing this on my own.

 

And I realize now that I had certain seasons I have made life a lot harder for myself because I somehow thought that there was like an extra trophy if I finish the race by myself. I said that it was like, spoiler, there's no trophy. And also, I was just making it harder for myself.

 

And so, this season I could not fake it. Like past seasons I could fake it. This one I could not fake it. I had two teenagers, two tweens, a lot of hormones and then prepubescent and puberty things flying around. Just a lot of scheduling, a lot of driving, like just life. And then just the stress of living with someone who, you know, a spouse who was living in space and the stress of what does that do to your marriage, to parenting and, you know, parent-child relationships. Just every single piece of running a house, of parenting all the things, was solely on my shoulders and that's a big weight. And it was tough. It was tough.

 

So, I could not fake it. I had to ask for help. I had to be willing to ask for it and receive it, which are two different skill sets I found. It's sometimes you get good at one and not the other. I had to get really willing to be vulnerable as my friends and say things like, “I'm really lonely.” Can you know, it's like being honest. Like everything's not just, “Oh, this is so exciting. Oh, isn't it so great? Aren't we just so proud of them?” Yes, but at the same time sometimes I'm lonely. Sometimes I'm struggling.

 

Sometimes in my stress I would overly focus on trying to control my home life or what was happening within my own house and become not as pleasant of a person to live with because I was just trying to kind of regain some control in what felt like a little bit of a chaotic world and then you become not your best self and you know that. And so, I had to learn how to kind of get out of that survival mode and still have fun even when life is hard. And really just kind of accept that life isn't one thing or the other. You can be in a hard season and it still have good things in it. Life can be full of opportunities and challenges and one does not negate the other. And when you try to live your life by one narrative or the other, not only are you faking it but you make life harder than it needs to be and you kind of block other people out of it.

 

So, there was a lot of learning going on in there but we really all came down to that first decision of how am I gonna live my life in this season? Am I gonna live it fearfully, reactionary, hair trigger, you know, just stress all the time because I'm afraid of what comes next. I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to handle it? Or am I gonna live a life of hope, which is of course like not wishes and dreams but it is anticipation that God will be with me no matter what comes down the pipeline. And sometimes that's divine comfort that is hard to explain but you just feel it. Sometimes it's people he draws to your life who literally will sit on the couch with you and just like hold your hand or give you a hug that moment you need it. Sometimes it's someone offering to carpool or take your kid out driving because they're trying to get their driver's license, you know?

 

But that's really the biggest thing for me. I talked about it in chapter one of the book because that's the foundation that really all those other lessons were built on.

 

Laura Dugger: (26:47 - 27:26) And I think also with your book, it was helpful to hear little insights into what it looked like for your marriage. And it was even interesting when you said it's really important for astronauts to have forms of entertainment and that you were so committed to being involved in Drew's life and that you two still found ways to stay connected. I just think that has to be encouraging to any married couples listening right now because you clearly had a big barrier to overcome. But what were some of those ways that the two of you tried as best as you could in that season to stay intimately connected to one another's lives?

 

Stacey Morgan: (27:26 - 31:19) Yeah, it's not easy. And I think there's kind of this fallacy that is kind of dangerous for especially young married I think to believe which is like in every season of your life you're gonna feel amazingly connected to your spouse and you're gonna constantly be growing in your relationship. And sometimes that's not true. Like sometimes one person has a job that takes them away from home or someone is sick or there are other issues going on in your life where the connection is just not as strong not because you don't want it to be but because the circumstances you find yourself in don't allow for that.

 

And certainly, while my husband was in space that was a lot of challenges to feeling connected. I mean there's good communication but there's a difference between like quality and quantity, right? So, he could call me on the phone every day but because of the time differences and his schedule the only time he could call me was between 4:00 and 5:00 p.m. my time, which as any person knows and with any kids, is like the worst time of the day. Like everything's happening, the wheels are coming off, homework, pickups, dinner prep, like all that kind of stuff was crazy.

 

So, needless to say, I was not able to sit down and have like a heartfelt drawn-out conversation. And then kids hate talking on the phone so he wasn't really talking to them during the day. I'm like, you know, my eight-year-old isn't gonna send him an email. So, you know, there wasn't like a lot of quality or quantity conversation with the kids which of course puts a little stress on your marriage too because you worry about that.

 

And then we have one video chat a month and you want it to be fun. You want it to kind of be good for the kids as well as him but it's a very, you know, it's one hour to share between five people and so that's not a lot of time. And so, the reality is that for that season there was a lot of, I would say, relationship treading water. And you're, you know, the goal is just not to let things go downhill, which you can easily do in life when you and your spouse are experiencing the same event but from different points of view. And that's what we were doing. You know, we were sharing the mission but from two vastly different points of view.

 

And so, you do your best. But the difference is I think you have to in order to kind of come out on the other end better, you have to have a kind of a mutual commitment that, “Hey, we're going to... we are eventually going to come back together on this. We can't change the circumstances. I can't make the time difference different. I can't give you more time on the phone. I can't... there's things I just cannot change. But we are committed as a team to doing the best we can right now and when this circumstance changes, in this case when he came home, we're gonna kind of back up again and do some story sharing and reconnect about some things that we just didn't have the opportunity to in the past.”

 

And so, it's a little bit kind of like two steps forward one step back but eventually you still come out ahead if you are committed to trying to come back together and share those experiences in one way or another. Where you run into kind of danger is if people start experiencing two different things and then they never come back together so the gap just kind of keeps widening and widening. And then you hear when people say like, “Yeah, I woke up and I felt like I was living a different life than the person who was sleeping next to me.”

 

And so, reminding us to ourselves that we are a team even though we were experiencing the same thing. I didn't know a lot about a lot of the things he was doing. He didn't know a lot of stories about how things were for me. And so, it's okay to tell them later if you don't have the ability to tell them in the moment as long as you both have the goodwill and you prioritize coming back together eventually.

 

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It sounds like you really leaned into your friendships. So, what would you say you've learned about community both before and after your experience of launching Drew into space?

 

Stacey Morgan: (34:26 - 38:07) Well, I tell you what, I realized that as an adult often a lot of us don't really know how to do friendship well. And our culture is so, it so values independence that we often convince ourselves that if we tell our friends or our community that we need help or just kind of show our true heart for how important it is to us, that somehow that's gonna be kind of like devalued or we're gonna feel weak. And I realized like, “Man, I wasted a lot of years trying to be tougher than I really am.” And I wish I could go back and change that because in this season, mainly because I had no choice. And so, God really used this opportunity to show me like, “Hey, I'm gonna kind of like force you to open up your heart, be vulnerable with this small group of really trusted friends and like just trust me to see what happens next.”

 

And I did and it was a game-changer. I mean, I have a lot of deep feelings but I put a little bit of a tough exterior and I forced myself to be super honest and super vulnerable with my friends and say things like, “I'm lonely or I don't even know what I need but I'm just feeling exhausted or angry or this is really frustrating to me or I need help with this and I don't even know where to begin.” And just let those friends step into my life in a really intimate way.

 

And you know, I think we've all had a friend at some point who has asked for help and we have been so happy to help them and we've never thought less of them for it. But somehow when it comes to our own time we're like, “Oh, I don't want to trouble anybody. Oh, they're gonna think I can't handle it.” Or like, “Well, this is like I made this bed so I better lie in it. You chose to have all these kids, you chose this career, you chose this whatever, like this is your problem.” But we would never say that about another friend. And so, I don't know why we are harder on ourselves than we are on our friends because it's not right. Most of our friends are happy to help us. They love us helping us, being with us, comforting us, supporting us. That's how they show how important you are to them and we need to let them do that.

 

I've also gotten better about verbalizing the feelings that I had always felt inside but I felt awkward verbalizing. Like, “Thank you for being my friend.” Or like, “Thank you for just spending this time with me,” or, “You are an important person in my life.” Words that we say to our kids, that we often say to our spouses, but sometimes for me at least felt weird saying to friends and I'm really trying to get better about that. That was a great nine months of practice. It doesn't come easy or natural I think to anybody but it's a game changer. Like why not tell your friends how much they mean to you?

 

So, community is essential. Like don't try to lone wolf this life. I've certainly had some more extreme experiences than probably the average person, but the principles are the same. Get plugged into community and have multiple circles of community. Certainly, your faith community but also you know if you work, if you go to the gym, if you go to school, like your kids' friends, like there's so many circles of community and don't be afraid to just jump right in and get connected. And you've got to do it before you are in crisis. You've got to kind of invest in these friendships so that you know them and can trust these friends so that when those seasons come that are hard you have this small group of people who you can rely on. It will be a complete game changer in your life when you have a small, could be one person, can be two people, trusted people who can journey with you.

 

Laura Dugger: (38:07 - 38:34) I could not agree more. I really think that friendship is one of the most precious gifts were given in this life. And going back to your marriage we had discussed that time of separation but then there was a whole other season of transition as well. So, what was it like to come back together after being apart for nearly 10 months?

 

Stacey Morgan: (38:34 - 42:55) Yeah, so it's funny there's always these Hollywood romanticized versions of what reunions must look like whether that's a military deployment reunion or you know when an astronaut comes home. And I think people assume it's some kind of like hot sexy romantic can’t keep hands off of you but the reality is far different, right? Because it's... I mean maybe it is, maybe that's how it is for some people. I will just say for us, you know, when you've been living an independent life for however long, whether that was you know a six-month or an eight-month deployment or a nine-month deployment to outer space, you know I was living my own life fully independent for that long where I made all the choices. I didn't have anybody looking over my shoulder or you know there's a little bit of independent freedom there when you're the only one kind of making the big decisions.

 

And so, when that person comes back into your life, which you want them to come back, you're happy they're home, but there is this awkward transition period. It's definitely an opportunity for some tension because now there's another opinion back in the mix, right?

 

Like I had to kind of adjust my way of doing life for another person who had a valid opinion, another decision maker. The kids had to adjust to having another parent back in the house. You're kind of getting to know each other so there is a little bit of a sniffing out period where you're like, “Hey, nice to meet you.” Because we all change. You know you could be gone from someone for a month, you know, you're not the same person you were today as you were last year or six months ago or maybe even a month ago. So, anytime someone comes back in your life they're different, you're a little different. You're like my friendships had shifted over those ten months, like my work had shifted, everything in my life had moved on and he had not been there in the house with me to experience that so there was... it was a whole new set of experiences and a new person to get to know again.

 

Now he came home and what made it a little bit more dramatic was that Drew came home in the startup of the pandemic. He came home in April of 2020 which at the time I think we weren't sure, “Are we going up? Are we coming down?” We know now looking back we realize things were just ramping up; the world was, we were all still very confused about what's the best thing to do can we all the things you know. So, NASA pretty much brought him home and then he came home to our house after just a few days in kind of the quarantine facility there on Johnson Space Center. But then he came back to our house and then it's like he never left because all of the normal stuff that would happen when you come home from space like travel and meetings and all these kind of things were all canceled or postponed.

 

And so, instead of kind of like getting to know each other slowly it was like zero to sixty. I mean he was home and he didn't go anywhere, none of us could go anywhere. So, we joke that the irony that he was in space with five professional crew mates in a small space and then he came home to live in our small space with five amateur crew mates who are certainly not nearly as gracious or accommodating or helpful as the professional astronaut and cosmonaut crew mates he had. The irony is not lost on us. So, he came home I don't think we've ever spent that amount of time together you know 24/7 in the same house with all four of our kids, no school, nowhere to go because everything's closed. And so yeah we're getting to know each other in this kind of Petri dish of new experiences as the world is also kind of like upside down and everything's unusual.

 

So, in the end it was okay. I joke like we did a lot of “I was like let me go do this puzzle I just need some alone time” or “I'm going for a walk around the neighborhood please don't text me. I'll be back when I'll be back I just need a few minutes to myself.” I think everybody has had that moment in the during the last two years where you're just like, “I just need a few minutes alone please,” you know in my if you've been trapped in your house with somebody who you're not normally with 24/7.

 

Laura Dugger: (42:56 - 43:17) Well sure and with your experience, mental health is very important for the family of the astronaut and the astronaut themselves. Wasn't it your psychologist who is saying typically when you come back and enter this time of reentry and reuniting you do little bit by little bit because that tends to be wiser?

 

Stacey Morgan: (43:17 - 45:22) Yes, that's right. They call it titrating a return. That's a principle they have in the military as well which is they would normally come back from a deployment for at least the first couple weeks back from a long trip away they would go to work every day for several hours because it's you know psychologically difficult for two people who have been living very independent lives to come back together just with like zero transition. The military has learned this over the last 20 years you know that you could go from a combat zone to mowing your lawn in 24 hours. That's stressful especially if you add in you know marriage baggage, kids you know nagging kids or issues like that, financial struggles, that's a kind of what can be a breeding ground for some really difficult situation. So, it's best to let people get to know each other again a little bit at a time.

 

Like you said the normal return from space was kind of the same thing. It would be come home and then you'd have some physical therapy, you'd have these different meetings and it would be a little bit like going to work for several weeks while they're getting their body and everything back to normal. Then, you kind of could have this kind of extended time at home but it gave both people the ability to kind of like reintroduce themselves to each other in bits and pieces and just kind of ease into it. But we did not have that luxury so we kind of had to create it ourselves. And I am glad again that we had those past experiences to know where the potential minefields were. If you were not prepared you could be very disappointed if you went into it thinking, “Oh, they're gonna come home, it's gonna be like romantic. We're gonna be like together and loving it all the time and just connecting so deeply. It's gonna be amazing.” And then the first time that your spouse is like, “Why are you emptying the dishwasher like that?” It's important to know like, “Yeah, if there is going to be tension it is going to be awkward. That's okay that is part of the normal cycle and it's gonna be okay.” But I'm glad that we had that knowledge beforehand because it could be tough.

 

Laura Dugger: (45:22 - 46:07) Well and Stacey another reason that I really appreciate you being willing to let us enter your story with you. When we have different careers or we have someone in the military and a civilian who's not involved, there's so much room for assumptions and maybe not always assuming the best. There's opportunity for miscommunication so I'm just wondering about the person who's hearing this and what if they're thinking, “Well that sounds irresponsible or even selfish of Drew to choose this path if he's a husband and father.” So, how would you offer that kind of person another perspective that they might be missing?

 

Stacey Morgan: (46:07 - 48:20) I mean I would say is when it comes to astronauts for sure, you know, these are not like hot-rodding thrill-seeking people. In fact, I would say I think a lot of people make the assumption that people who do some of these higher like physically higher risky jobs must be like thrill-seeking you know just thrown caution to the wind about everything in their life. Actually, nothing could be farther from the truth. I think you would find that we certainly and I would you know I think a lot of people in the same career field are similar and that we are good risk calculators. And that like policemen, like firemen, like military personnel you know it's an act of service to be in this job. These are not just like you know space tourists or billionaires getting on a rocket for fun. These are professionals who have chosen a career field of service and whether that is as a policeman, a fireman, a service to the nation, service to humanity, service to their community and they all play a part in that.

 

I think most people recognize that that it is you know there's something to be said for the person who chooses a career that has a level of risk because they feel called to it and because thank God for people who will take on risk and are willing to potentially sacrifice themselves for someone else. I mean I think it's kind of a higher calling which is why in general in our culture we honor them and rightfully so. It is risky, it's very risky. They certainly don't do it for the money. I don't think anybody in any kind of government service would say that they're doing it for the money, that's for sure. You know they're doing it because they feel called to something bigger than themselves and to serve their fellow man in some way. That's certainly I know how we feel as a family that his choosing to transition as an Army physician into being still in the Army but serving in this capacity was just the next level up. The way he could serve our community, our country, our nation and all of humanity and he really is its service first. It's the opposite of selfish; it is selfless service really.

 

Laura Dugger: (48:20 - 48:55) Mm-hmm thank you for that. I just say amen to everything you just said. Really it's service from your entire family that requires a sacrifice from each of you like you said for the greater good. And I think something else that you pointed out so well in your book was that having this value more so of security or not living into this calling that you said this calling was put upon your lives that could actually be idolatry if you're starting to place a higher value on security or anything else other than God and so I think you model that well.

 

Stacey Morgan: (48:55 - 51:13) Thank you. Yeah I think a lot of people you know sometimes these idols creep up on us we don't realize that we have put something on a pedestal until it gets threatened to be taken away from us and all of a sudden our reaction is over the top because we're you know you realize, “Gosh, I'm finding my security in this thing I'm finding my identity in this thing whether this thing is a job, another person, a political party, a scientific breakthrough whatever it is.” Right? Like and I think a lot of people, I certainly felt it you know in that launch moment like, “Am I finding my identity in being married to this person or him having this job or this launch being successful? Because if I am in about 10 seconds my world may crumble because if that could all be taken away from me.” And in that yeah I think we all kind of have probably had a moment especially in the last two years where for a lot of people something that they have built their life on has been either taken away from them or has it has been threatened to be taken away because of the pandemic a job a person in their life you know a relationship your kids going off to school every day I mean whatever it is that you've built in your life and you have put on this pedestal and you kind of made without even realizing it have started to place more hope in those things remaining unchanged than you have in God. And all of a sudden when those things are threatened you have this over-the-top emotionally fearful response that's kind of an indicator I think to all of us like when we have that is like, “Whoo my fear and my response should tell me that I seem to be very very afraid that this is going to be taken away from me because I am putting too much hope in it. Instead, I should be taking that and putting it back where it belongs. I should reprioritize where I am finding my hope and the only unchanging thing that we can build our foundation on is God. Everything else, every person, everything, every job, every whatever it is can and could possibly be taken away from you and on your deathbed will be.” So, you know you can't help but have a little bit of self-reflection there.

 

Laura Dugger: (51:13 - 51:23) Well and then for all of us how do you recommend that we all can rediscover our fun side when we've been trapped in survival mode for too long?

 

Stacey Morgan: (51:23 - 56:05) This is a great question because I think all of us have felt this definitely in the pandemic. You know this part in your life where everything in the world feels very chaotic and so you try to regain some control in your own life by maybe regimenting your kids a little more, cleaning your house a little more, you know, controlling things at work or whatever your environment is. And without really realizing it you become this just like survival mode like your day just becomes about making things easier for yourself, streamlining things, making things just go go go. And you wake up one day and you were like, “I'm exhausted. Like why am I so tired? Why am I why do I have like no joy? Why do I just feel unhappy?” And you realize that you have not done anything other than just be like surviving and cleaning and doing work or whatever it is like you have just been doing the basics with no fun whatsoever.

 

So I have been there I hit that a bunch of times in the pandemic, but I certainly hit it when Drew was in space because it's really hard being a single parent and managing all of the emotional burdens and the logistics of it. And I realized that I was cleaning a lot I was kind of getting a little bit more trigger angry with kids or people who you know were making me upset because when you're in survival mode it's all about just like “Get out of my way let me do what I want to do,” it's about getting things done quickly and other people become an annoyance instead of a joy in your life.

 

So it's all about going back to something that that fills you up and it can be something really frivolous it can be something like it's very it's 100% unique to you and so I can't tell you what that thing is but I would say the first step in kind of getting yourself out of survival mode and kind of getting back to your your whole self is asking yourself the question like, “What do I enjoy?” Not for its educational value, not for its good cardio exercise or and not what your kids enjoy, not what is Instagram worthy, or anything like in your soul what fills you up? Is it reading? Is it watching movies? Is it riding bikes? Is it roller skating? Is it you know eating Mexican food? Like what is it that you enjoy doing that when you do it you just feel like more of yourself?

 

And then just go do it tomorrow. Like it's gonna take prioritizing time probably some money but that is as much of a part of who you are how God created you. He didn't make you this like worker bot or like just a mom or just a wife or just a daughter or a sister like He made you a whole person and a huge part of who you are are these things that you enjoy. And you cannot continue to pour into other people or work or your community if you are never getting filled up yourself. You will just dry out, you will be burnt out, you'll be unhappy and you'll actually be worse in all these other areas where you were trying to work hard because you're just gonna be like a shell of yourself.

 

So, for me it was prioritizing time with friends. It was... I got this crazy flyer on my front door for roller skating lessons and I had this fantasy of being a really good roller skater that stemmed from like when I was eight and so I signed my girls and I up for roller skating lessons which was hilarious and very humbling but it was just silly. It took time, we had to prioritize the time on every Saturday it took money, but it was just fun. It had no educational value my kids will look back on it and be like, “What was that all about? I don't even know.” But it was great because even in the midst of a stressful season like that was a very stressful season, undeniable, but as part of that narrative it will not only be like, “Yeah it was really tough when my dad was away and you know my mom had to like single-parent us but that was also the season where my mom took us to roller skating lessons. Isn't that weird? That was so weird.” And we'll laugh about it.

 

And so, it's just about finding something that you want to do and then just unapologetically spend the money, spend the time, and invite a friend to do it with you again. Doing something with a friend is always more fun than doing something alone. Don't feel like you have to justify it or explain it to everyone you don't need to take pictures to post online you don't need to tell it just just go do it and have a good time. It's amazing how when you do that suddenly like those dust bunnies or that email that had a weird tone that you got don't annoy you as much as they used to because your kind of like finding your whole self again.

 

Laura Dugger: (56:05 - 56:27) That's helpful to remember to live life to the fullest and be ready for the next adventure that life's gonna throw at us. Yeah. And just as a bonus can we just ask what are some of the most common questions that you and Drew answer about space?

 

Stacey Morgan: (56:27 - 57:25) That's a good question. A lot of like personal hygiene questions about teeth brushing toilets how do you know take showers or whatever and of course the answer is they don't take showers. But and then of course a lot of people want to know, “Hey I've always been interested in becoming an astronaut how does somebody do that?”

 

And there are so many resources online people you know I say, “Look go online read all about it. There's amazing videos NASA puts out an incredible amount of resources that you can read up on but at the end of the day do what you are most passionate about because the likelihood that you, or your nephew, or your cousin, or your co-worker, your son, or, whoever it is that you know is convinced they want to be an astronaut the likelihood of them being an astronaut is very low. So you should do what just fills you up do a career and a life that you are passionate about and if God calls you to that path those doors will open but if He doesn't you'll still be living a life fully within God's purpose for you.”

 

Laura Dugger: (57:25 - 57:39) And Stacey you're such an incredible communicator both in this interview time together but also really enjoyed your book. And so, if people want to follow you to hear what you're up to next, where would you direct them online?

 

Stacey Morgan: (57:39 - 58:41) Sure well they can go to my website StaceyMorgan2000. That's like Stacey Morgan two zero zero zero dot com. That has my blog that has links to a different podcast like this that I've been on and they can check that out. They can find me on Instagram same handle StaceyMorgan2000.

 

And you know if people want to reach out, I love when people have been sending me messages lately after they've read the book it's been so awesome. You know I tell people like I certainly didn't write this book for the money I'm actually donating all my book proceeds to charities that support military families. So, I've been joking like, “Hey read the book if you don't like it the worst that happened is you donated to a military charity. If you do like it buy ten copies and give one to all your friends. But if you do like it I love it when people send me messages and just tell me kind of like what resonated and how it spoke to them.” That's just been one of the I would say the coolest aspect of completing this project was kind of putting it out there and then getting to see how God uses it in people's lives.

 

Laura Dugger: (58:41 - 59:02) There were so many things that resonated but off the top of my head if anybody has a copy of the book they'll have to turn to the part about baloney on sale friends. And Stacey you may know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge and so as my final question for you today what is your savvy sauce?

 

Stacey Morgan: (59:02 - 1:01:08) Well I'll piggyback off your baloney is on sale friends’ reference and that would be: pick up the phone and text your friend. We didn't need a study to show us this because I think most of us have just known this in our soul but there is an endemic of loneliness in the world right now as you know we've got all these ways to connect and yet people feel more disconnected. They feel more lonely especially women and what I learned through my own kind of relationship struggles over the years is that everyone's waiting for someone else to go first. That you in that moment you feel like you're the only person who's feeling lonely and alone and that everybody else is in these friend circles and you're just somehow on the outside. But the reality is that pretty much everybody feels the same way you do and everybody's sitting at home wishing someone would just text them and invite them to coffee.

 

So that's my practical tip is don't wait, go first be the bold friend or even acquaintance like it doesn't have to be someone that you are super besties with. But those baloney is on sale friends like I said you have to read the book and understand that that is like a special category of friendship that's the kind of friendship that our soul longs for but those things don't appear or like pop out of the ground. That kind of friend doesn't just show up it's developed over time it's invested in and cared for and loved and it starts with literally a text to go get coffee. That's how every great friendship story begins. So, if that's you, if you feel like yeah I don't have this close friend who I can do something with I'm lonely. Okay take that first step be the one who picks up the phone send that text message to the woman from church, or the woman from the gym, or that friend you haven't talked to in a while and just invite them over for coffee. Nothing fancy nothing crazy no agenda just come over for a couple hours for coffee. Every single person I know who does this no one ever regrets inviting a friend over for coffee. That's the first step that we can all take into just feeling more connected and having those kind of friends that we want.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:01:08 - 1:01:31) Love it. Well Stacy your book definitely changed my perspective on risk and I was so hooked on all the stories that you shared so I believe that your book is truly a gift to anyone who chooses to read it and your faith is very inspiring so thank you for sharing your journey with us and thank you for being my guest.

 

Stacey Morgan: (1:01:31 – 1:01:33) Well, thank you it's been great.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:01:33 – 1:05:16) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Breaking Through Addiction in Marriage with Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith (Episode 277)

277. Breaking Through Addiction in Marriage with Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith

 

*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults.

 

1 John 1:9 AMP "If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just [true to His own nature and promises], and will forgive our sins and cleanse us continually from all unrighteousness [our wrongdoing, everything not in conformity with His will and purpose].”

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company

 

Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith are clinicians, speakers, and authors with over 20 years of combined experience in counseling, coaching, and guiding couples toward healing and transformation. Their mission is to help couples navigate the complexities of relational challenges, particularly in the aftermath of sexual addiction and betrayal trauma, fostering deep restoration and growth.

 

Matthew is a Professional Certified Coach (ICF) with a background in pastoral leadership, while Joanna is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, EMDR practitioner, and Certified Clinical Partner Specialist through APSATS. Both hold Master of Divinity degrees and have served together on multiple church leadership teams. Currently, they co-lead their private practice, The Raabsmith Team, where they specialize in helping couples rebuild connection, trust, and intimacy.

 

Their passion for this work stems from their own journey of restoration. After experiencing the devastating effects of sexual addiction and betrayal in their marriage, Matthew and Joanna embarked on a years-long pursuit of reconciliation. This transformative experience led to the creation of tools like The Intimacy Pyramid™, a practical model for relational restoration and growth co-created with colleague Dan Drake. 

 

Their first book, Building True Intimacy (2023), has sold over 1,000 copies and provides practical guidance for couples to use the Intimacy Pyramid to create enduring connections. They also founded Renewing Us Recovery™, a comprehensive program designed to support couples in the later stages of relational restoration. In November 2025, they will host the inaugural Renewing Us Couples Retreat, offering workshops and connection opportunities for couples on similar paths of recovery and growth.

 

Matthew and Joanna live in Memphis, Tennessee with their three young children. They prioritize self-care through shared adventures, new experiences, and a weekly game of pickleball.

 

Free Resource Mentioned in Episode

 

Building True Intimacy book

 

Questions and Topics Discussed:

1. What were the warning signs that you noticed when you were newlyweds that tipped you off to believing things weren't quite as they seemed?
2. Are there any common life circumstances, whether nature or nurture, that predispose someone to be more likely to struggle with a sexual addiction?
3. As couples seek to thrive in marriage, will you give us an overview of the intimacy pyramid you wrote a book about?

 

Other Episodes Mentioned During Episode:

Pornography: Protecting Children, Personal Healing, Recovery, and Victory in Christ with Sam Black

Pornography Addiction and Helpful Recovery with Crystal Renaud Day

 

Additional Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce:

Anatomy of an Affair with Dave Carder

Protecting Your Marriage Against Unfaithfulness with Dave Carder

Stories Series: Recovery From Sexual Sin in Marriage with Garrett and Brenna Naufel

Supernatural Restoration Story with Bob and Audrey Meisner

Special Patreon Re-Release Wholehearted Quiet Time with Naomi Vacaro

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:12)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:13 - 1:38) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.

 

Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com, or connect with them on Facebook.

 

Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith are my guests today. They are clinicians, speakers, and authors with over 20 years of combined experience in counseling, coaching, and guiding couples toward healing and transformation. Our conversation takes a few turns, from getting to hear their incredible and vulnerable story of healing and then getting tips for talking to our children about topics like sex, and also even receiving some practical wisdom and tips for enhancing our own marital enjoyment.

 

Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Matthew and Joanna.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (1:39 - 1:40) So good to be here.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (1:40 - 1:42) So glad to be here. Thanks for having us.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:42 - 1:51) Oh, truly my pleasure. And let's just start here. Can you share your story going back to meeting and falling in love and your first part of marriage?

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (1:53 - 2:17) Sure, yeah. It was a little bumpy at first, actually. So, I knew Joanna through her brother. Joanna's brother was one of my best friends, and I got to meet her whenever she would come in town and visit, and she would invade guy night.

He would usually bring her along to like a Lord of the Rings movie or something, and I would be a little frustrated because I would be like, oh, you brought your sister. Great. That's wonderful.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (2:18 - 2:24) A little off-putting, not super friendly. And I was like, your friend's kind of a jerk. We did not like each other at all in the beginning.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (2:24 - 2:54) Not big fans. And eventually over some time, we started to realize we had a lot in common. We liked to do a lot of the same things.

 

And one summer that Joanna was in town, we started hanging out, started doing more and more together, and really just kind of developed a friendship, which was really fun. And at the very end of the summer, realized that there was something between us. And so, we went on one date.

 

Our first date, we entered a golf tournament. We won it, and that was a good sign.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (2:54 - 2:55) That's a pretty good sign.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (2:55 - 3:02) And we went on three more dates over the course of two months and got engaged.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (3:03 - 3:07) And then two months after that, we got married.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (3:07 - 3:16) Yeah. So, her brother went from like, yeah, it's cool you date my sister, to like, you're not ready to get married. But he's come around now.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (3:17 - 3:19) 15 years later. Yeah.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (3:19 - 3:40) And, you know, a lot of it was, I think we had a definite sense of being kind of called together, being, you know, something special about who we were as a couple. And also, a recognition that we wanted to figure out what a good marriage looked like. We were really excited about marriage, but we didn't really know what we were doing.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (3:41 - 4:15) Yeah, I've had a really great model of healthy relationship. My parents have a wonderful marriage. They work really well as a team.

 

And so, I knew, like, I want something like that. But as soon as we got married, we realized, but how do you actually build that? There's no, like, instruction manual for, okay, here are the things to do to have a great relationship.

 

And so, we read books. We went to conferences. You know, we did what we could, but we still found ourselves getting stuck, not able to really create, like, that deep sense of, like, connection intimacy that we really wanted.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (4:15 - 5:17) And we started kind of hunting more and more for resources. We found some incredible resources that really changed our understanding of the way relationships work, the way people work, and really, for us, shifted our entire focus of kind of what we wanted to do, even with our life. And as we started to do that, though, we still kind of found ourselves at this kind of glass wall.

 

We felt like no matter what we tried, there was always this kind of distance between us. And that started to grow kind of over the years that we were together. It wasn't getting better.

 

It was actually kind of getting worse and worse and worse. And so, Joanna had actually decided to, after we finished our first grad degree together, the idea was we were going to go be pastors. And so, we had finished our kind of theological training.

 

Joanna decided she wanted to get a master's in marriage and family therapy so we could do some work around marriages and ministry in that way. And her very first-class kind of just set our life in a completely different direction.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (5:17 - 6:26) Yes. So, my first class in the MFT program was a two-week intensive called Shame and Guilt. So, that's a really fun two-week intensive to be a part of.

And as a part of that, though, they had an anonymous pastor come and share his testimony of struggling with sex addiction, becoming sober, getting into good recovery, healing and restoration in his marriage, kind of like that whole journey. And as he was talking, something inside of me started stirring. And I knew, OK, what he's saying is resonating way too much with me right now.

 

I think this is the thing. This is what is keeping us stuck, not able to really create the relationship we want. And so, that day I went home and first I just kind of started talking about my class, what I learned, what this pastor had shared.

 

Right. And nothing. Right.

 

We're just kind of talking generally about it. And so, finally I couldn't do it anymore. And I just stopped and I looked him square in the eyes and I said, “Are you struggling with this in our marriage right now?”

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (6:26 - 8:03) Yeah. And for the first time in my life, 20 years, I had been struggling with pornography, sexual addiction, and acting out in our marriage. And for the first time in my life, I was honest.

 

I had lied for years, both with Joanna and everyone else. And the kind of floodgates just kind of opened up. And I finally said yes.

 

And it was really hearing the story, I think, is what did it for me. I think it was knowing that somebody else had made it, that their life hadn't come crashing down because that was the greatest fear for me. That the moment anyone found this out, everything in my life would be over. Everything that I loved would be gone.

 

And so, this kind of story of hope gave me a little bit of courage that day, to be honest. But that started a really long journey for us because there was a lot of damage that was done in both of my hiding. And now kind of this revelation, all the pain kind of came crashing down on Joanna and kind of her shoulders.

 

And so, we started a quite intensive recovery process. We talked about it being kind of a full-time job. I went to recovery for my addiction and for kind of my acting out behaviors.

Joanna had to begin a process of healing from the trauma of this discovery. And that process took us a number of years. It really was a long kind of arduous journey, but one that we ultimately survived and now thrive in our marriage and get the incredible luxury and the kind of gift of helping other couples do that.

 

So, that's kind of where we find ourselves.

 

Laura Dugger: (8:04 - 8:30) That is incredible. I just really appreciate you sharing your story. Clearly, stories are so powerful and that's what led to some healing for you and hopefully can open the floodgates for somebody else listening.

 

So, if we go back in your story, then, Joanna, I'd love to start with you. What were some of those red flags in early marriage that things aren't quite as they seem?

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (8:31 - 10:28) Yeah, there are a few. You know, I think that, you know, one of the pieces we kind of talked about, like, OK, we knew we're still getting stuck because there's 90 percent that felt really good. But then 10 percent that was extremely chaotic, really destructive.

 

Right. We would get we call the pain cycles when we get emotionally dysregulated. And there would be some things that, right.

 

Sometimes we would get into pain cycles, get dysregulated. And I kind of understand why. Right.

 

Like something happened. There was the disagreement. But other times I couldn't put my finger on it.

 

Right. Matthew would just get really angry and really shut down. And I wouldn't be able to connect it to anything that had happened in our life.

 

And so, it was very confusing. It was really hard to understand what was going on. And I think kind of in the same way, when I would pull too close into that connection, that intimacy, he would pull back.

 

Right. And it felt like even though we both named this goal and this desire, he would never actually partner with me in it. And so, again, that was really confusing because the actions were not matching up with reality and what was happening.

 

And I think the other piece that was kind of true for us and true for a lot of other people is that our own sexual relationship was fraught with pain. And so, there was, again, a lot that was really good, but also a lot that was really painful and confusing. And some of the pieces just didn't connect.

 

Right. And I would wonder, OK, what's going on? Well, I guess this is just the reality that like this is how much we get to expect in this area of our life, right.

 

In our relationship. And so, it was when the pastor started describing his life and addiction and what that looked like emotionally, sexually, relationally. I was like, oh, those are all the things that I'm currently experiencing.

 

Here's one thing that would answer all those questions that I have. And so, I think that was part of it. He kind of told me, like, OK, this is it.

 

Laura Dugger: (10:28 - 11:00) That would be so eye opening. And my heart's going out to the couple who is maybe starting to identify with this. Was it and share whatever you're comfortable with from your story or the person's story who opened things up to you?

 

So, sexually, I'm wondering if it was for you, Joanna, if you were hoping to connect sexually and that wasn't happening and that was confusing. You didn't feel pursued. But I don't want to fill in the blanks.

 

So, could you elaborate?

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (11:00 - 12:03) Absolutely. Yeah. And we find it a lot of different ways than couples that we work with.

 

Right. And so, it can be sometimes on either side of the extreme. And so, for us, it was where there would be kind of times when he'd be fully present and interested and engaged.

Right. And then all of a sudden, kind of like I described emotionally, he would just withdraw and not be there. And I would reach out to connect.

 

And that was this like non-response. And which, again, didn't match up with those other times when he was engaged and wanting to connect. And he would give some sort of excuse that didn't totally make sense.

 

Right. But I was kind of like, what else? What was I left with except that?

 

So, I would kind of believe that and go with it, even though it didn't sit right. And so, yeah, I think that was part of it. We will see on the other side for some other couples.

 

It's the opposite. And maybe that spouse is hypersexual in the relationship. Right.

 

To the point where there might be pressure, even pressure to do things sexually that people aren't comfortable with. And so, yeah, it can look a lot of different ways. But that was kind of what our disconnect looked like.

 

Laura Dugger: (12:04 - 12:33) That's so helpful. And there's two different directions I want to go, Matthew. So, I'll set it up.

 

I guess I'm thinking of the guilt and shame and how those are usually so present. So, I have two questions. Were you when Joanna came to you, were you at a point where you recognize something was off and you wanted freedom from this and or had tried freedom before?

 

Let's start with that and then I'll go into the other one.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (12:34 - 14:40) Yeah, it really was holy timing in a lot of ways. I, you know, for a lot of years I had I hated what I did. I didn’t feel like I could stop it, but didn't have a lot of interest in kind of doing anything to stop it.

 

I kind of just like would just say, “OK, this is going to be the last time.” And then, you know, of course it would come back. But I think at this point I had really started to see the damage that was happening to our relationship.

 

I could feel us growing close, growing further apart. I could see kind of Joanna and the confusion that she was having. And like she couldn't understand things.

 

She would ask me a lot of questions that I didn't have answers to. And so, I actually a couple of months earlier, we were at a worship service, and they had said like, “hey, if you are ready to give something up, if you feel like there's something holding you back, come forward and confess it.” And Joanna and I were sitting next to each other, and I remember feeling like the Holy Spirit just like pulling me to like get up out of my seat and I wouldn't move.

 

I was like, no, because she's going to ask me what I went down for. I'm going there's you know, there's a random kind of prayer partner at the front. I'm like, I'm not going and confessing this to some random person.

 

And so, I was ready. But I think like I said, I think there was no path forward. It was kind of confess this and everything stops and ends.

 

But everything like marriage ends, life ends. And so, when she when she brought this, it really did feel like God had kind of been answering a prayer that I've been praying of like, if you give me a way out, I'll take it. I'm desperate.

 

I want it to stop. And it felt like that. I think it was both this kind of terror and this hope that day.

 

And even when I said, yes, it was a little bit like, what have I done? Like, could this have been different? Should I have just gone and told someone else privately?

 

Right. But I think ultimately that it was out between the two of us and that we kind of knew it. We knew what we were dealing with made a huge difference.

 

But I mean, God had been working in my life, offering opportunities for so long. I just been saying no, no, no. And then finally, you know, I think my heart just broke and it was like, yes, OK, I'm ready for this.

 

Laura Dugger: (14:40 - 15:14) I love how the Holy Spirit equipped you with that humility and courage to be brave in that moment. And it's such a blessing for all of us to get to see the end or I guess not the end of the story, but you at this point in your story where you're thriving. And so, I hope that offers a lot of hope to people listening.

 

But let's also pause. And so, going back further in time, Matthew, this was the other part of my question. What was life and attachment and your growing up journey like?

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (15:15 - 18:09) Yeah, I didn't know that at the time. Right. I a lot of this I figured out in the last couple of years of recovery.

 

You know, if you would have asked me, you know, as I was growing up about my life, I would have told you I had the perfect family. I had the perfect life. I think I did not realize that some of the things that I was going through weren't perfect, were harder.

 

And part of that was because I think the way my family dynamic worked was we just swept everything under the rug. You know, whatever happened, we just kind of went, OK, and moved on from. And I learned to do that as a kid.

 

And that meant a lot of emotional chaos. There was a lot of physical chaos and kind of volatility in our house growing up. And even though I had parents who are still married to this day, have stayed together and have tried to create kind of a stable life.

 

There was a lot of emotional and kind of relational instability. We moved around a lot. And then once we started moving, I found myself more and more kind of isolated at school. I started dealing with bullying and some things that really kind of left me not knowing how to deal with the pain that I was going through. And so, my way of stuffing things under the rug was getting, you know, escaping, you know, kind of escaping into anything that I could. I watched a lot of TV.

 

I was a latchkey kid, so I would come home. I'd watch TV a lot in the afternoon and then TV kind of just turned to more and more. And I was exposed pretty young to pornography, actually at a church camp.

 

I was at a summer church camp. Someone brought a Playboy magazine, and I was exposed to pornography. And I kind of felt that high, that rush.

 

And that just became kind of a mode of my escape. Right. Of whatever I could do to engage sexually, whether with my mind or with others.

 

That's how I could get out of the pain I was in. That's how I could stop feeling kind of the chaos that I was having and not realizing that it was becoming this kind of adaptive habit, that it would just be this thing I would go back to more and more. And I grew up at a time that technology was still emerging.

 

So, I can remember when we got our first computer and no one was talking about safeguards or anything. And so, it was just kind of exposure. Here you go.

 

Here's everything you could ever want and don't need. And that really became my life. And the more and more that I did, the better and better I got at lying and hiding and even being kind of vulnerable in kind of fake ways.

 

I would mention things like, yeah, we all have this struggle. And even Joanna, I had told like, you know, that was a struggle of mine in the past, but I've moved on from it. Right.

 

I told myself and other people just kind of lie after lie after lie so that I could have really this double life. I could appear one way and then I could be acting a completely different way, kind of in the dark.

 

Laura Dugger: (18:10 - 20:41) Yeah. And that makes sense. I'm thinking back to two episodes.

 

We did one with a male, Sam Black from Covenant Eyes, and he speaks so much of the origins of pornography and that foothold that Satan gets. And so many times it is in childhood, unwittingly you're exposed and then what it can turn into. And then Crystal Renaud Day came on to share a lot of females struggle with this as well.

 

And so, I'll link to those if those are a help.

 

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So, at that moment when you've confessed, Matthew, the floodgates open for you and Joanna.

 

What did life look like for both of you next and even individually your journeys?

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (20:42 - 22:30) Yeah, it was separate. We did not separate, but we were really focused on our two different journeys because they were so different. For me, I had to figure out what had really gone on in my life and what was really happening.

 

Because, like I said, I had become such an expert at hiding from myself and others that I didn't really know how to live any other way. And so, I, you know, Joanna kind of handed me a list of everything this pastor had done. She was like, here you go.

 

Right. She kind of handed me that list and was like, good luck. And so, I dove in.

 

I went to a men's intensive. And I think that was probably one of the key places for me to tell my story for the first time. I really took a look at my life and had some people help me take a look and recognize the trauma that I had as a kid exposure that I had experienced and what that really meant to me and helped me understand what I was doing.

 

But also, kind of what I was doing to myself, how I was really kind of killing myself from the inside out and preventing myself from having the kind of relationship I wanted with God and other people. And so, that discovery was in really ways kind of invigorating for me. I felt like I was living for the first time.

 

I think I had started to kind of get out of this kind of burden, this fear of always being caught. I told Joanna kind of the history of everything that had happened in my life and our relationship. And so, I was feeling this kind of renewed sense of like energy and excitement of like, this is good.

 

I want this life. I want the life there that I'm not in constant kind of fear and in constant kind of connection to this thing I hate. And so, which is really different than what Joanna was experiencing.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (22:30 - 25:07) Yeah. So, for me, it was very jarring in the beginning. Everything I thought was real came crashing down around me.

 

And that was especially jarring because I had left kind of the direction, the path that I was on. Right. We talked about our story earlier.

 

It included two months of dating, two months of engagement before we got married. And that also included me dropping out of law school, getting married and moving to California to pursue a ministry degree so we could work as pastors together or do something together. And so, in that moment, all of that came crashing down.

 

And I kind of was very lost, not just in our relationship, but in kind of what in the world am I even doing here? What am I going to do moving forward if he doesn't choose recovery? Right.

 

And so, just all of those question marks, all in that one moment of him answering that question affirmative. And so, so there was like that heaviness on one side and then on the other side was this relief of finally everything I've been experiencing makes sense. Right.

Finally, I feel like I actually know what's going on. And because of that, there could maybe be a path forward for us as well. So, is this very, very weird dichotomy in that moment? And so, but I think I knew right away, like, I can't be vulnerable. I can't be intimate with him anymore. Right.

 

I have to step back in our relationship and wait and see what he chooses to do. Is he going to choose to do the work of recovery and get healthy and start to be honest and safe or not? And so, that's so we kind of did kind of there's some space for a very long period of time while we focused on our own individual recoveries.

 

And that, again, was a little bumpy for me. This is over a decade ago. And so, there is very little information about what partners experience.

 

We call it betrayal trauma, and that just wasn't a very common word at the time. And so, some of the resources I plugged into came from a more we would call it codependent, co-addict focus, which just really didn't fit. So, I struggled to find resources that felt like they fit for my journey.

 

But once I did, it all again, my own healing process started to make sense. And it was so like freeing and liberating to understand. Like, oh, OK, this is what I'm going through. This is why I feel this way.

 

This is what it looks like to heal and move forward. And so, kind of beginning that process was so important because then when Matthew was kind of in a healthy, safe place, I was as well, and we can start to step in towards each other on that kind of more couples’ journey at that point.

 

Laura Dugger: (25:07 - 25:17) I love how you did that wisely, though, separate first, not rushing into couples at that time. Absolutely.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (25:18 - 26:33) Appreciate you calling it wise. I think we were terrified. Yeah, we'll take God's help.

 

I think he was like, you guys just work on your own stuff for a while. And in some ways, like I said, it was we didn't know what we were doing. But I think we knew we wanted there to be a future between the two of us.

 

But we knew it had to be completely different in some ways than what we had before, which was scary because we liked what we had before. Like we had a really great marriage in many ways. Right.

 

There was this portion of it, this hidden portion that was really infecting and killing it all. But what we did have together, we didn't want to totally lose. It just was really hard to know, especially early on, what's going to come forward.

 

Like, who are we still going to be as we go forward? Are we still going to be a couple who does things together? Right.

Who works together? Or is that all kind of going to have to be different? Is that the only way that we have kind of moving forward?

 

And so, that was that was probably the hardest part was having like this sense of like not wanting to lose us. We were like, if we lost that, that was going to be miserable. And I think a lot of our work was about how do we eventually reclaim this marriage that we want, that we love?

 

Laura Dugger: (26:34 - 27:04) Yes, because from what I'm sensing, you're friends with each other, you're on purpose or on mission with God. He did a course correction change, putting you on this path to help couples. But your desire to work together, it's like He still honored that in the ministry of reconciliation.

 

And I'm assuming abundantly blessed it beyond what you could ever dreamed up what we're doing now.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (27:04 - 27:42) Right. It's been amazing to see what God has done, how he's used our story, which is so fitting because it was someone sharing their story that brought our healing. And I think because of that and it wasn't right away; it took some time to get to the place where we felt open to God using our story to bring healing to others. But we found as we stepped into that, that we have received such a blessing.

 

Right. And just being able to sit with other couples in that journey and see them go from that place of pain and confusion to this place of restoration and thriving. Like there is no better work that we could have imagined for ourselves.

 

Laura Dugger: (27:42 - 28:09) Love that. And really, you did have to pioneer a path. There weren't many resources at that time.

 

So, that's another reason I'm grateful you can share your story, because I hope it unlocks freedom for others. So, if we're turning more outward now and you're helping as you work with couples, how do you help them identify the difference between sexual struggles and sexual addiction?

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (28:10 - 30:15) Yeah, that's a great question. And I think that it really kind of exists on a spectrum. And so, everything kind of exists under what we call problematic sexual behavior or unwanted sexual behavior.

 

Whenever someone is acting in a way sexually that doesn't align with their values. And then the question is, is how often, how compulsive, right? How habituated, right?

 

How really embedded is that practice? Because the more and more embedded it is and the more and more that I continue to act on that, seeing the damage that it's doing, that's really what qualifies as the addiction. The addiction is when I know that this is causing harm and I and I feel that even though I want to stop it and I've tried to stop.

 

Right. I can't stop the 12 steps has a great line. They say addicts, you know, addicts have no problem stopping.

 

It's staying stopped. That's hard for an addict. Right.

 

And so, that's usually a sign that there's an addiction. And really what that means is that just means that I'm going to have to be even more kind of thorough and scrupulous in my willingness to change a lot. Because if I have built an addictive lifestyle, that means everything I do kind of functions to support that lifestyle.

 

Right. And so, my part of that was this hiding. I lied about everything.

 

I would lie about anything just to make sure that I was in control of the narrative. And so, for me, it was recognizing that if I was going to move forward free of my addiction, then it had to begin with honesty, with this kind of radical honesty and transparency and growing in that consistently, because that was the way that I manifested this addiction and kind of kept it going. And so, that's really what the addiction is about, is recognizing what are the kind of pieces in my life that are supporting this addiction to continue to exist?

 

And how is God going to dismantle those things? Right. And how am I going to be a part of that dismantling?

 

Laura Dugger: (30:16 - 30:33) That's well said. And also, I'm curious, are there any common life circumstances, whether that's nature or nurture, that are more likely to predispose someone to more likely have this struggle with sexual addiction?

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (30:34 - 32:30) I mean, there are, I think, you know, the things that we tend to look for are trauma and trauma comes in so many different forms. So, trauma is more it's rare that it's a single event. It's often more a kind of consistent occurrences.

 

As I mentioned, you know, I can't speak to kind of one event in my life that I say this was the traumatic moment in which everything changed. But it was more of the chaos. And so, I grew up in a family that could be really, really, really loving and incredibly encouraging and fun and silly and in a heartbeat switch into one that was verbally and physically just chaotic and terrifying.

 

And it was that chaos that kept me on edge. What it did was it created in me kind of a system of always wanting to be on high alert. And that would exhaust me.

 

That would kind of wear me out. And I would want to kind of numb that kind of feeling away. And so, I think those traumas, I do think early exposure.

 

Right. I mean, I was exposed early before my brain was ready to really understand what it was dealing with. And I think the third component that we often see is a low level or a kind of really a void of sexual education.

 

There was I'm sure I had a small talk with my dad at some point, but we were not talking about pornography. We weren't talking about bodies. We weren't talking about sex from a kind of healthy, good way.

 

I grew up in the church, and it was kind of don't do this until you're married and then you'll be fine. Right. That was the sexual education message.

 

And so, those things, right, trauma, exposure and lack of kind of education usually forms in someone a difficulty of knowing what they're doing, knowing that it's destroying them before it's really kind of gotten a deep hole.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (32:30 - 33:20) I think like the brain. The brain aspect to when we talk about addiction, there are usually chemicals involved in addiction being formed, being created. And so, I think also co-occurring disorders, right, that emotional pain, also things like anxiety, depression, ADHD, where my brain really likes the dopamine it gets from sexual acting out. Right.

 

And you can actually need it to feel OK. That can also be a factor in kind of especially that addictive side of these behaviors. When my brain gets really attached to that dopamine release that it's getting because maybe I have some other things going on or I just have emotional pain.

 

I don't know what to deal with, how to handle it, how to regulate that in a healthy way.

 

Laura Dugger: (33:20 - 34:30) There's so many good points there. I'll just highlight one because there's a profound piece that you were talking about with early exposure to evil and the corruption of it is extremely harmful. And yet not being exposed to God's good design for sex and hopefully being coached by our parents, that is both of those play a part in the addiction. And so, I'm thinking even as we shift to think about parents, I know I've had parents come to me and just say, I don't want to talk about this with my kids.

 

I don't want to rob their innocence. And my approach is if God made it, this is good. We can talk to them.

 

You're not robbing their innocence when you're sharing the good age-appropriate parts of sex. And it's so great to be that first one to share with them. And I think it does the opposite of what we would expect.

 

We're afraid that that might make them hyper sexualized. But would you speak to that? Any encouragement for parents?

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (34:30 - 36:37) Yeah, it's tricky. I mean, even as parents, we've got kids and its still kind of navigating it. But I do think what it does is it lets someone learn the things they need to in the timeline they need to.

 

I think part of one of the things is that, you know, really good sexual education starts young. I mean, they start six and seven years old or even younger, just talking about our bodies. Right.

 

Because I think that's part of it. Really, this is about understanding the goodness of our bodies. This body was created by God, the maker of heaven and earth, and he called it good.

 

And so, I think part of a good sexual education begins with that. And then, what's really nice is once you've started the conversation, that means if your children are exposed or if they're presented with things that don't line up with what they've been hearing, they now feel safe to come and talk about that. Because that's really what this was about.

 

I didn't feel safe to talk about what I was exposed to, what people were doing. Right. And what people were encouraging me to engage in.

 

And so, you know, my parents would ask me how it's going. I would not tell them anything because it wasn't a conversation that they were having with me. And so, I didn't think it was a conversation I was going to have with them.

 

And so, that meant that as I found myself further and further away from my values, I felt like, who am I going to share this with? And so, part of having the conversation is it normalizes with our kids that this is OK to talk about, which is actually what adults need. I mean, part of our work with couples as adults, we have to get them talking about sex and body parts.

 

I mean, it's amazing to have 30, 40, and 50-year-olds in our offices and in our sessions. And they're so uncomfortable. Right.

 

They don't want to talk about sex. They don't want to talk about their bodies. They don't want to talk about what their bodies do.

 

Right. And we keep being like, this is God's good stuff. Right.

 

There is goodness here. But you have to begin by talking about it. Right.

 

Having these conversations.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (36:38 - 37:54) I tell all the parents I work with, your kids are going to pick up a narrative about what sex is and what sexuality is, whether you want them to or not. And so, would you rather be the first person to step in and give them a healthy view, a healthy narrative to understand? Right.

 

And this is beyond kind of the nuts and bolts that everything our kids are learning. They're trying to find a deeper meaning. They don't think it's unconscious when they're young.

Right. But they're taking it and they're going, what meaning does this have for me? How does this inform my self-worth, my view of my own value as a human in my body?

 

And how does it inform my experience of the world and my safety in the world? And am I empowered to make decisions? Am I connected?

 

Do I belong? Right. All of those questions are asking.

 

And so, as they're confronted with issues of sexuality, it's going to inform those things. And the world will not give them a healthy narrative about it. Right.

 

And so, being able as a parent to step in and give them that healthy meaning, that narrative, that understanding of their worth and their safety as they're piecing together kind of sexuality, again, at that age-appropriate level is so important.

 

Laura Dugger: (37:54 - 38:30) Guess what? We are no longer an audio only podcast. We now have video included as well.

 

If you want to view the conversation each week, make sure you watch our videos. We're on YouTube and you can access videos or find answers to any of your other questions about the podcast when you visit thesavvysauce.com. And I love that you're talking about this with couples you work with.

 

So, will you give us an overview of the intimacy pyramid that you actually wrote a book about and you teach to couples?

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (38:30 - 38:31) Absolutely.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (38:31 - 39:15) Yeah. I mean, it was born out of our journey because, as you said, we wandered for a while and we felt a little bit like Israel, just kind of, you know, knowing that the Promised Land was out there, but never really feeling like we could find it. And when we started to piece together, I think the kind of relationship that we had dreamed of reclaiming, we really ask ourselves, how can we make this a more direct, a simpler process, not just for couples who went through what we went through, but really for any couple who's hungry for this, for the couple like us when we were first starting.

 

It really wants an amazing marriage. And so, we really focused on a kind of simplistic idea of what are the core kind of foundational levels of building really healthy intimacy.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (39:16 - 40:10) Yeah. So, the intimacy pyramid, it's actually a triangle. There's a visual that goes along with it.

 

So, if you imagine the different levels of the triangle, very similar to Maslow's hierarchy of needs, starting at the bottom, you have to start with honesty. And so, we definitely experienced that reality in our own relationship. Right.

 

This is something we learned from Couples in Betrayal, but like Matthew said, we realized this is where every couple starts. Am I willing to be fully open, fully honest and transparent in this relationship? Am I being my authentic self?

 

Right. And after that level of honesty, that's when we start to build safety. And that has to do with our ability to communicate in really healthy, constructive ways.

 

Even when it's hard, even when we're disagreeing, even when we feel like yelling at each other. Are we able to show up with that belief that we both have the same goal? We're trying to build something together.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (40:10 - 41:57) And with honesty and safety, that's where we get to work on trust as a couple. That's that next level. And trust is where we start to be more partners, where we're really starting to kind of lean in, work together, kind of be courageous and saying, “Hey, this isn't just my life anymore, right?”

 

This is our life together. And as that trust is established, this is what allows for the incredible work of vulnerability. And there's been all these studies about vulnerability over the last few years and how important it is.

 

What we recognize, though, is vulnerability on top of nothing is actually really risky and kind of even dangerous. It's vulnerability that's built on healthy trust where we step in and we do share some of those deeper pains in those wounds, those fears. We start to really heal some of those kind of early traumas that we experience.

 

It's in that vulnerability. That's what allows a couple to be truly intimate. And it's when they've worked through each of these levels, what we find is these couples, when they reach this kind of this intimacy level, they're passionate about who they are as a couple.

They love kind of their relationship itself. They have a purpose to it. They have a sense that like our marriage, our relationship exists for a reason, but they're also really playful.

 

They're silly. They're really kind of comfortable in their own skin. And it's those five levels really working together that allows them to experience a relationship that gives life.

I think one of the things we know is that when God creates, it gives life. And so, God created marriage not to burden us, right? Not to kind of, you know, not even just to get us through, you know, kind of surviving life, but actually to bring more life.

 

Right. And not just life within the relationship itself, but life outside of it.

 

Laura Dugger: (41:58 - 42:22) Oh, I love it. And you're also working with couples. I've heard you speak before about the working on offering your spouse the gift of self-awareness.

And so, what could couples expect? How do you actually work with them to grow in self-awareness and recognize things like the emotional process they go through in marriage?

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (42:22 - 43:48) Absolutely. So, awareness. So, in our book, we obviously detail the intimacy period much more.

 

And that's Building True Intimacy is the name of the book. But each of those levels we just walked through have different components that go into that. And awareness is kind of like one of the most important components of that honesty foundation.

 

So, we have to start with awareness and we can't really build anything if there's a lack of self-awareness. And so, when we work with couples, one of the first places we start is we kind of look at the past. Are they aware of what they've been through, what those experiences are, and how those experiences have shaped them into the person that is now in the present, showing up with their spouse.

 

Right. And so, once I start to have that insight from my past, from those experiences, how they shape me, I can better understand my present. What are the things that I feel and why do I feel those things in particular?

 

Right. And then when I feel those things in a relationship, and these are typically those kind of heavier, more challenging, more painful emotions. How do I respond?

 

How am I showing up? Because the reality is that all of us cope with emotional pain the same way we cope with physical pain. We go into fight or flight.

 

That part of our brain gets triggered and we respond with these kind of destructive relational coping behaviors that then hurt my partner.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (43:48 - 46:22) Yeah. Like, for example, I told you about that chaos I experienced as a kid. And so, those would always happen around conflicts.

 

My parents would disagree about something. There would be some type of argument about, you know, and it could be anything where we were going for dinner or what color the curtains were. Right.

 

But it would create this chaotic environment. So, as I got married, the thing that I didn't like the least was any type of conflict. Joanna and I would get in when I could sense us disagreeing and we are both passionate.

 

We have opinions and we believe things and we get into this kind of disagreement and argument. It would freak my system out. And I didn't realize that because I didn't really know my past.

 

I didn't know what was going on. I would just really do anything to shut it down. I get angry and I try to get loud, or I just walk away in the middle of a conversation.

 

As Joanna was talking, I would just leave the room and my acting out was just a further manifestation of that kind of leaving the relationship. And so, part of my healing journey was to learn about my story and recognize, oh, OK, I can see what's happening. And what's really interesting is it still happens in our life today.

 

I've been in recovery for 12 years. I still feel the same things. Now it's more like when my kids are getting involved.

 

Right. And there's energy in the room and people are online. And then I go, oh, yeah, there it is.

 

There's my system again. It's starting to feel unsafe. It's starting to feel alone. And I know what it wants to do. It wants to get angry, or it wants to just shut down and walk away. And what's incredible is that we've learned the ability to see where we're at but also speak directly to that.

 

And so, what I get to do for myself now is I get to go, “OK, I know I'm feeling unsafe and I know I'm feeling alone. And I know I want to get angry to solve it, but it won't do it. But here's the truth. The truth is that I'm safe in God's economy. I'm empowered. I have an incredible partner in my life. I've never been alone. I've always had someone there for me. And Joanna is the perfect example of that.”

 

And that totally changes my sense of really kind of where I am. And it changes how I show up. I tend to be much more calm.

 

I ask questions rather than make demands. And it's that ability to kind of see where we're at and shift. That's just been such a game changer for our family and just for our own relationship.

 

We still have to work on it. You know, it doesn't always look that pretty. Right.

 

But when we do, it's amazing how different it goes.

 

Laura Dugger: (46:24 - 46:44) And then I just think of the generational impacts that has when people are willing to do the work. And so, if there's a brave couple out there who wants to seek their own help and healing, can you share where they can go for help, including the Raabsmith team and all that you have to offer?

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (46:46 - 47:30) Yeah, you know, we would love them to connect with us because I think one of the things we recognize was having guides along the way. I mean, we had to figure a lot out ourselves, but we also had some really incredible guides, some mentors, some coaches, some therapists. And so, we always just say, hey, connect with us.

 

You can find us at raabsmithteam.com. We have a heart for couples who want restoration and reconciliation because that's what we're getting to live and experience. And what's cool is our whole team, they're couples who've been through this work, but who also have been professionally trained to help other couples to just continue to guide and to grow relationships so that they're thriving and they're kind of giving that life.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (47:30 - 48:10) Absolutely. We also love to give out resources. And so, we have the kind of we call it the honest connection.

 

And so, again, if you're starting this journey or even this is for any couple who wants deeper connection, deeper intimacy, learning how to do that on a daily basis in small ways is so important. And so, we have a worksheet that couples can take and use. We're happy to provide that for them for free and kind of try this for 30 days and notice the changes that you experience in your relationship.

 

And so, that's a great starting point wherever you are in relationship to begin that journey of connection.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (48:10 - 48:14) And you just go to raabsmithteam.com/free and that resource is all yours.

 

Laura Dugger: (48:15 - 48:26) Wonderful. Add links for that in the show notes for today's episode. And is this then for any couple worldwide, nationwide?

 

Can you work with people?

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (48:27 - 48:55) We have we've got couples across the world, which is really fun. It's been really neat just to see the way that God has used our work. One of the things when we first started this journey, we started getting couples calling us saying, “Hey, I don't have anybody in my area that specializes in this, that understands this journey.

Can I work with you?” And so, we kind of felt a calling to say we want to make sure that we connect with people wherever they are. And so, absolutely.

 

If you can hear our voice, you can work with us.

 

Laura Dugger: (48:55 - 49:14) I love that. And just as a little bonus practical tip, you kind of mentioned being proactive to thriving in marriage. Is there any encouragement that you could share or a specific practical tip that anybody could start to incorporate if they want to take their marriage to that thriving level?

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (49:15 - 50:12) Yeah, I think just the ability to slow down. We have a  nine, seven and six-year-old. We own our own business, and we like life and life can get incredibly fast.

 

And I think what we have found is when, as I was mentioning, when I learned the ability just to slow down, even if I don't fully just know myself slowing down and checking in, just where am I at right now? Where's my heart? Right. Where do I want to be?

 

I think I realize that so often my values and my actions aren't aligned when I'm moving too quickly. I'm not being the person that I want to be. And we see that in so many couples. We meet so many couples and there are two really great people who have a hard time working together. They have a hard time kind of being a team.

 

And it's usually because they're working so fast. They don't realize they're kind of working against each other. So, slowing down, I think, is such a big thing.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (50:12 - 51:18) Another piece that's, again, really easy to start right away. A lot of couples we work with, and I think probably even us when we start a relationship, was there were two individuals in a relationship, and it was kind of either me or you. And starting to understand there's this third thing between you, the relationship.

There's a third almost entity that really needs care. It needs nurture. It needs you to focus on its needs from time to time.

 

And so, beginning to approach the day, even approach conversations with this question of like, what does our relationship need right now? And even as you're trying to make decisions, what is the way we can decide this in a way that's good for our relationship or what decision benefits our relationship rather than does it benefit you or me? Because when you get into that struggle, it can become a competition.

 

It can become transactional really quickly. So, starting to ask that question, starting to talk about the needs and caring for the relationship very intentionally can be a way to shift that.

 

Laura Dugger: (51:20 - 51:38) Thank you for sharing that. I think that leads into my last question, because you already know we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for both of you, Matthew and Joanna, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (51:39 - 52:22) I kind of mentioned this, but I think it's the willingness to be honest. I was so willing to lie to myself and kind of really hide from other people. And I didn't even know that I was doing it.

 

But as I have learned to be more honest in really kind of healthy ways, right. You can dump, you can whine, you can complain, you can get angry. But truly being honest meant just looking at what I was feeling and trying to kind of figure that out and name that.

 

As I have learned that ability to be honest with myself and with others, it has just opened up a new world of possibilities. And it has shown me how many people care for me; how much God cares for me. So, I think that honesty is something I just want to practice more and more every day.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (52:22 - 53:30) I think for me, just in my own journey and working with so many partners, that importance of being able to make empowered decisions in my life. Right. That I am really intentionally choosing the direction I'm going in life.

 

Realizing that instead of going into this more helpless, powerless victim stance is such a difference. And really the only thing that changes a lot of times is mindset. You don't have to overhaul your entire life.

 

Right. You have to add in like four hours of self-care and all of these things. But starting to shift that mindset into, wait, I have power in the decisions I make.

 

And one of the ways that's really important to do that is growing that self-awareness. I cannot make empowered decisions if I'm not aware of where I'm at emotionally, physically, spiritually. Right.

 

If I'm not aware of my needs on a regular basis. And so, slowing down to check those things in, sometimes even multiple times in the day if you're not used to that. So, you're more connected to yourself, to what you need, what you want.

 

So, you can start making those empowered decisions.

 

Laura Dugger: (53:32 - 54:00) I love that. It's just so enjoyable to host a very lively couple who's humble and you've done your work. And then you're willing to share all this overflow of goodness with all of us.

 

So, I think my prayer is that the Lord would richly bless you for this open-handed generosity of wisdom and your story and experience that you've shared with us and modeled for us today. So, thank you to both of you for being my guest.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (54:00 - 54:03) Thank you so much. It's a joy being here.

 

Laura Dugger: (54:05 - 57:47) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.