500K
Downloads
361
Episodes
Practical Chats for Intentional Living
Episodes
4 days ago
4 days ago
Top Ten from 2024: #7 Her Desires and His Desires in the Bedroom with Dr. Jennifer Konzen
*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults
Her Desires and His Desires in the Bedroom with Dr. Jennifer Konzen
1 Corinthians 7:3 (AMP) “The husband must fulfill his [marital] duty to his wife [with good will and kindness], and likewise the wife to her husband."
**Transcription of original episode** BONUS: Special Patreon Release: His Desires and Her Desires in the Bedroom with Dr. Jennifer Konzen
Dr. Jennifer Konzen is a certified sex therapist, award winning researcher, and international speaker who lives in San Diego, California. She and her husband Time have four kids. She has been a parent educator, a marriage, parenting, and sexuality seminar and conference speaker, and yes, a Broadway showtimes performer (her undergraduate degree is in Musical Theater and Vocal Performance).
Art of Intimate Marriage by Tim Konzen and Dr. Jennifer Konzen
Redeemed Sexuality by Tim Konzen and Dr. Jennifer Konzen
Intimate Marriage Cards by Tim Konzen and Dr. Jennifer Konzen
christianfriendlysexpositions.com
Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Sue Neihouser Team
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website.
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
Monday Jun 16, 2025
Monday Jun 16, 2025
Top Ten from 2024: #8 Intentional Parenting in All Stages with Dr. Rob Rienow
Matthew 18:3 (NIV) "And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."
**Transcription of original episode** 230. Intentional Parenting in All Stages with Dr. Rob Rienow
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
- As our children grow up, what wisdom can you share for both participating in and refraining from sports in childhood?
- Do you have any counsel for us as we navigate the teen years, especially as it relates to technology and friendships or relationships?
- If we do find ourselves in a child-centered family today, what are a few practical steps to move us in the direction of God's actual vision for our family and our marriage?
Dr. Rob Rienow married Amy in 1994 and they have been blessed with 7 children. His most important ministry is loving his wife and leading his children to know God and love Him. Rob’s mom came to Christ shortly after he was born so he was blessed to be introduced to Jesus at an early age. His parents divorced when he was in high school and God used that painful time in his life to give him a heart for young people and families going through dark times. He attended Wheaton College, then completed an MA in theology at Wheaton College Graduate School, an MDiv from Trinity International Divinity School, and a Doctor of Ministry in Christian Leadership from Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary.
Rob’s life dramatically changed in 2004. God brought him to a place of deep repentance over the fact that he was disciplining other people’s children, but not his own. He was a spiritual leader at church, but passive with his family. Through that time of repentance, God turned his heart to the ministry of his children and his wife. God then led He and Amy to launch Visionary Family Ministries, a ministry designed to inspire parents and grandparents to disciple their children, to help couples create mission driven-marriages, and equip churches to build Bible-driven ministries. Their mission is to build the church through a global reformation of family discipleship.
He shares the biblical message of family discipleship at national and international conferences for parents, couples, and church leaders. He partners and consults with numerous churches, encouraging them to accelerate evangelism and discipleship through families.
Continue Learning from Dr. Rob Rienow:
Books and Resources by Dr. Rob Rienow
Other Episodes on The Savvy Sauce with Dr. Rob Rienow:
87 Visionary Parenting and Grand-Parenting with Dr. Rob Rienow
Special Patreon Release: Discipline that Disciples with Dr. Rob Rienow
Other Episode Recommended from The Savvy Sauce:
228 Stewarding Technology for More Intentional Relationships with Joey Odom
(When you get your Aro Box, use code SAVVY for 1 month off a prepaid annual membership & 2 months off a two year membership)
Thank You to Our Sponsor: BELAY (Text SAVVY to 55123 before June 30th, 2025 to receive your amazing, limited-time, special offer!!!)
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
Monday Jun 09, 2025
Monday Jun 09, 2025
Top Ten from 2024: # 9: Protecting Your Marriage Against Unfaithfulness with Dave Carder
Disclaimer: This message contains adult themes and is not intended for little ears.
Ephesians 4:31+32 “Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.”
**Transcription of original episode** Special Patreon Release: Protecting Your Marriage Against Unfaithfulness with Dave Carder
Dave Carder serves as Pastor of Counseling Ministries at First Evangelical Free Church of Fullerton, CA.
His specialty is Adultery Recovery and Prevention for which he has appeared on numerous media outlets including The Oprah Winfrey Network, Discovery Health, and The Learning Channel, The Tony Robbins Passion Project, Ladies Home Journal, USA Today, The Counseling Connection, and various other magazines and journals. He has taught at various universities and seminaries world wide, and has done training for both the US Navy and Army.
He is the author or co-author of Torn Asunder: Recovering from an Extramarital Affair, Close Calls: What Adulterers Want You to Know About Protecting Your Marriage, and Unlocking Your Family Patterns: Finding Freedom from a Hurtful Past. He holds the Michigan Limited License for Psychology and the California Marital and Family Therapy license, and has graduate degrees in Biblical Literature and Counseling Psychology.
Dave and his wife, Ronnie, have been married over 50 years, and have four adult children and eight grandchildren. More info is available at www.DaveCarder.com
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Anatomy of an Affair by Dave Carder
Torn Asunder Workbook by Dave Carder
Schedule an appointment with Dave Carder HERE
Dave Carder’s Website, Including FREE video series on recovering from extramarital affair
Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass
Thank You to Our Sponsor: BELAY (Text SAVVY to 55123 before June 30th, 2025 to receive your amazing, limited-time, special offer!!!)
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
Monday Jun 02, 2025
Monday Jun 02, 2025
Top Ten from 2024: #10 Stewarding Technology for More Intentional Relationships with Joey Odom
Proverbs 14:1 NLT “A wise woman builds her home, but a foolish woman tears it down with her own hands.”
**Transcription of original episode** 228. Stewarding Technology for More Intentional Relationships with Joey
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
- Will you explain the habit loop for how habits work and share how Aro fits into that?
- What are the awesome, relational impacts you are seeing, whether you planned for those or not?
- Will you share a few stories to illustrate the changes Aro is making in people's lives?
Joey Odom is the Co-Founder of Aro. He is a natural storyteller and a dynamic leader known for his ability to inspire and foster deep connections with others. Joey's experience with technology as a husband and dad led him to help create Aro alongside Co-Founder Heath Wilson.
Follow Aro: Website, Instagram, and Podcast
Other Technology Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce:
Mastering Technology so it Does Not Master You with Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd
Tech and Parenting with Molly DeFrank
Technology and Parenting with Arlene Pellicane
Tech-Savvy Family with Paul Asay of The Plugged In Staff
Thank You to Our Sponsor: BELAY (Text SAVVY to 55123 before June 30th, 2025 to receive your amazing, limited-time, special offer!!!)
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website.
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
Monday May 26, 2025
Monday May 26, 2025
264. Simple Ideas for Incorporating Art with Children and Teens with Courtney Sanford
Colossians 3:23 NLT "Work willingly at whatever you do, as though you were working for the Lord rather than for people."
**Transcription Below**
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
- Can you give us an overview of the seven major forms of art and give an example of ways our children can engage with each?
- What are the best art supplies to have on hand?
- As our children grow, why is this helpful in the teen years to have a healthy way to express ourselves and our ideas?
Courtney Sanford is a dedicated wife, and mother who triumphantly homeschooled her three children. With one pursuing a career in orthodontics, another just finishing a master's degree while working in higher education, and the youngest studying computer science at Regent University, Courtney's commitment to their education has yielded remarkable success.
Passionate about nurturing creativity and self-expression, she guides students through captivating art classes, exploring the intersection of imagination and skill. With her background as a graphic designer and experience in studio art, Courtney embarked on a new adventure as an art teacher.
As a multitasking mom, author, artist, teacher, and adventurer, Courtney embodies the spirit of embracing life's opportunities and fostering a love for learning and artistic expression.
Beyond her love for education, Courtney has an insatiable wanderlust. She finds joy in traversing the globe, hosting art retreats, and volunteering at Spiritual Twist Productions: both painting sets, and serving on the board of directors. When time permits, Courtney indulges in spring snow skiing, hiking in exotic locations, and leisurely walks with her dog, Zoey.
Delightful Art Co. was born out of a time when life gave Courtney a handful of lemons, and she creatively transformed those lemons into refreshing lemonade. The Covid shutdown rather forcefully prompted a major shift from in-person art classes to online classes.
Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage
Other Episodes Mentioned:
202 Simple Ways to Connect with Our Kids And Enjoy Breaks with Beth Rosenbleeth (Days with Grey)
223 Journey and Learnings as Former Second Lady of the United States with Karen Pence
Continue the conversation with us on Facebook, Instagram or our website.
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
*Transcription*
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:36)
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, WinShape Marriage.
Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage, and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org. That's W-I-N-S-H-A-P-E marriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Courtney Sanford is my guest today, and she's an amazing artist and teacher and author, and I'm just so excited to share this conversation. If you're like me and you're ready for summer and your rhythm changes with your kids, she's going to share some super practical tips for incorporating art and beauty into our homes.
And I think that you're going to conclude this conversation by knowing where to begin and understanding why it matters. Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Courtney.
Courtney Sanford:
Thanks for having me.
Laura Dugger:
I'm so excited to hear more about your story, so will you share what has led you into the work that you get to do today?
Courtney Sanford: (1:37 - 4:20)
I sure do like to share that story. I didn't start off as a homeschooler. I didn't imagine that that would be where my life went, but I was always a creative person.
I was a graphic designer, and I worked in the Performing Arts Center, and I got to do lots of fun design for shows. Then along came kids. I actually enjoyed dropping them off at school and going to Target, and I was okay with that.
We didn't do public school because the school near me didn't look safe, and we had lived near Columbine High School and thought it was just a beautiful, beautiful school. And when we left Colorado, we thought, oh, isn't it sad that our kids won't go to school there? And then just about a month later, the whole Columbine shooting happened, and so we were kind of traumatized by all of that.
And then when I saw the school that my precious five-year-old would go to, it didn't look safe, and so we sent them to a private school. So here we are spending a lot of money, having high expectations, and the kids were doing all worksheets all the time, and they started to dread going to school, and they didn't love learning, and the excitement of learning just kind of drained out of them. And so we looked into other options and decided that homeschooling would be the way to go, and I found the classical model and just loved the way that sounded, and we tried it, and it worked, and the little lights just came back on in their eyes, and they started to love learning again.
And I just found my people, and I just learned everything I could about homeschooling, and I just poured myself into it wholeheartedly as unto the Lord. And had a great time, and I just loved my time with my kids, and I felt like it was successful, and I encouraged other people to do it, but I wasn't really sure that it worked until they got into college and they turned out to be successful, thriving humans, and we're really proud of them. One will be a doctor in about a month.
He's about to graduate. He has a wife and a little girl, and then my second one has her MBA, and she works for a Christian college where she leads trips, and she's getting ready to take a group to Paris and London, and so she kind of ministers to students through that, and then my youngest is still in school staying to be a software developer. So now I can confidently say it was worth all the energy that I put into it.
It was hard work, probably the hardest thing I've ever done, but so worth it.
Laura Dugger: (4:21 - 4:40)
That's incredible, and I love hearing the success story where your children are now, but you really also inspired them with beauty and art in their learning and growing up time, and I'm curious, are there any personal lessons that the Lord has taught you through art?
Courtney Sanford: (4:41 - 6:32)
Oh, goodness. Yeah, I think my desire was to make learning interactive because I saw what they were doing in the private school, which was sit in a chair all day and do your worksheets, and it was just worksheet after worksheet after worksheet and then a quiz, and then you get graded, and so I was thinking if I'm going to pull them out, I've got to do better than that, and so that was my standard, and I was going to beat that standard every day, and so I pulled in art because that's what I knew, so if we were learning about an animal, we would draw the animal. If we were learning about a continent, we would draw the continent until we could draw it from memory, and I really learned with them. I did not have a great elementary education or even high school education, so I would learn this stuff, and then I would think of creative ways to get them involved with it, so a lot of times it was drawing.
It could be painting. It could be making things out of clay. We used to make things out of Rice Krispie Treats, and then they could take it to their co-op group.
Well, it was a classical conversations group, but they do presentations, and so we made a Mayan temple out of Rice Krispie Treats, and we would make volcanoes, and then they could take it to their friends and share it with them and tell them about it, so anything I could do that would get us out of the chair using our hands and using our senses and think, you know, how can I incorporate all five senses, and that just made learning so much more fun for them and for me, and so a lot of it was art. Some of it was science.
Anytime I could incorporate a sense of play into what they were learning, I could see that they would learn so much more.
Laura Dugger: (6:32 - 6:55)
I love that, trying to incorporate all five senses, especially. That gets some ideas coming, but can you even back it up, and because you're an artist, will you give us an overview of the seven major forms of art, and can you give us examples as parents for ways that we can engage our children with each of those?
Courtney Sanford: (6:56 - 10:58)
Oh, sure. Let me think. All right, so drawing, of course, you can draw what you see, so when I teach students to draw, I do a progression, so we'll draw from line art, and you can find line art anywhere.
It might be in a children's book, so using the library was key for me, so I'd get a laundry basket, and I would go to the library with an index card of what we'd be studying, and I would grab all kinds of books related to that, so when you come home, you get out a kid's book. If you see a good line drawing, say you're studying a lizard, if you see a good line drawing, draw from that. They could even trace it to start with, so you draw from the line drawing, then once they get really confident with that, you go to drawing from photos, and then you go to drawing from real life, so maybe you have a fish tank.
Maybe there's a fish in the fish tank, and you could draw from that or draw things in your yard, so that is how I break down drawing for them, and it could be years. You could draw from line art for years before you go to drawing from photos, and then to drawing from real life, and drawing's great for learning to memorize things. For painting, painting's just fun, and so I like to go to the kitchen table every afternoon and paint what you see, so you start off with the younger kids.
You could start with color and markers and fill in the areas, and then you can teach them how to shade using painting. Sculpture is also fun with kids. I like air-dry clay, and I like Sculpey clay.
I like to get a one-pound block of Sculpey clay and teach them the basic forms, like roll out a snake, do your hands together. Those of you who are listening, you can't see my hands, but I am making a sphere with imaginary clay. These are really good for developing their fine motor skills, too.
We also make the letters out of roll-out snakes and form your letters. That will really help if they're reversing letters. It takes a while to build the whole alphabet, so maybe you do three or four letters a day.
You work on it a couple times a week. It might take a month to make the whole alphabet, but that can be one goal, to get them working in three dimensions. We usually do additive sculpture, like adding on, and you can use found objects to make sculptures.
One time, my son took apart a pen. I rearranged the pieces into a human shape, and it was lovely. Getting them thinking in three dimensions is related to sculpture.
Carving, I don't like to do until they're old enough to be safe with a knife, but once they are, especially the boys love to go outside in the yard and get a log. They spend a lot of time carving spoons. Just a simple shape they can hold in their mind and then carve it is a good activity.
It keeps their little hands busy, too, if you want to read aloud to them and you don't mind a little mess in the house, they can carve. You can also carve out of a bar of soap as well. For that, that's a subtractive sculpture technique.
Let's see. That's the three main ones, drawing, painting, sculpture. I know film is one.
Film, I don't really incorporate much into my homeschool, except we will occasionally watch a movie about history. That has gotten me into trouble a few times because some of those movies that I think are going to be historic turn out to have racy scenes in them, and I'll have to jump up and get in front of the TV or cough really loud. But there are some good films that you can watch together as a family.
That's about as far as I went with film.
Laura Dugger: (10:59 - 11:19)
I would, if you don't mind me interrupting there, too. I feel like that's one that our girls have actually begun to develop on their own, where our eldest daughter once wanted a video camera, so she got the old-school video camera. They're making their own movies, and I've seen that as a form of creative, artistic play.
Courtney Sanford: (11:20 - 11:49)
Oh, that's fabulous. Yes, so when my kids were little, we didn't even have phones or video cameras on the phones, so that wasn't an option. When we first started homeschooling, our TV died, and so we did not even have a TV for years.
We just decided not to replace it, which forced us into audiobooks and reading aloud and then just playing outside instead and reading books. So that was a blessing.
Laura Dugger: (11:49 - 12:03)
I love that because that's one of the other forms. That was new to me, that literature is an art form. Sorry, I sidetracked you because we still have literature, architecture, theater, and music.
Courtney Sanford: (12:04 - 14:20)
Yeah, I think the best thing that we did for our kids, of course, I love teaching them to write using Andrew Pudewa’s method with IEW. It's kind of imitative writing, so you learn to imitate good writers. But also, my husband read aloud to the kids every single night.
That was his time with him. He gave me a break, and he would read for hours. He loved it.
The kids loved it. And he would choose classics or funny things, you know, science fiction. Probably not the books that I would choose.
I would choose classics and things related to what we were studying, but he chose what he wanted to read. So I would read aloud in the afternoons, and we would do audiobooks like Story of the World and all the Jim Weiss readings. And then he would read aloud at night.
And just whatever he wanted to choose, he would read aloud. And I think hearing good language produces good speakers and good writers. So he gets about 50 percent of the credit for the success of the kids, I think, for just reading aloud every night.
It was such a great thing to do for the kids. And then the last one, architecture. I do incorporate architecture when I'm teaching about a culture.
So, if we're doing art history or history, we'll look at the buildings. So, of course, you do that with ancient Egypt. You look at the pyramids.
When you're talking Old Testament times, you look at the tents. And then as I go through art history with the high schoolers, I'll point out more and more like neoclassical, of course, comes from the ancient Greeks, but it's come to symbolize power and authority. And that's why we see it in government buildings.
So, my degree is graphic design, but it was in the School of Architecture. So, I had a lot of history of architecture and I appreciate it. And so I'm always pointing that out to my kids.
And I do that in my class, in my art history class. I always incorporate the architecture just as a part of understanding a culture.
Laura Dugger: (14:21 - 14:29)
I love that. And was there anything specific that you did with your kids for encouraging music or also theater?
Courtney Sanford: (14:30 - 15:29)
Oh, yeah. One thing I wish I had done more of was kinder music. I don't know why we didn't do that much kinder music, but now I'm learning more about it.
I wish I had done more of that. And I did put them in piano lessons. One wanted to do violin.
So, they had a few years of learning the basics of music, and then they really got into theater. We have a great Christian youth theater nearby. And so that was a really good experience.
In their Christian youth theater, they would sing praise and worship songs before and during and after a play. They would be praying for the audience and singing worship songs in addition to the singing on the stage. And that whole experience was really good for them.
Even my quietest kid got a big role in a play one time, and he had to memorize a lot of lines and sing in front of people. It's just such a great experience for them.
Laura Dugger: (15:30 - 15:57)
I would think so. Even if they don't choose something that we would consider a very artistic career, I can see why all of this is still beneficial. That leads me to another question for you.
Regardless of the way that all of us parents listening are choosing to educate our children, why is it still beneficial for all of us to incorporate art into our homes and into our parenting?
Courtney Sanford: (15:58 - 21:59)
That's a great question. So, the first line of the Bible says God created. So, the first thing we learn about God is that he was creative.
He created everything. And then just a few lines later, it says then he created man in his own image. So that tells me that we were created to be creative, to create.
Now, he doesn't let us create stuff out of nothing like him, which is probably for our own good. That would be a mess. But we can create things out of what he created.
And there is a study done by George Land. And there's a video on YouTube of George Land giving a talk about this creativity study that he did. And he created a test for NASA to help them find creative engineers when they were trying to get to the moon.
And they used it to study creativity in children. And they tested five-year-olds. So, they found a group of 1,600 five-year-olds who were in school.
And when they tested them at five years old, 98% of them tested as creative geniuses. So, their plan was to go every five years and test them again just to see what was going on. So, they went back after five years.
The kids are now 10. And it dropped down to like 27%. They went back another five years when the kids were 15, and it was down to about 17%.
And then they were so depressed, they stopped testing them because they could see they began as very creative. So, we're created creative. And a lot of moms will say, yes, I can see that in my children.
But something happens. And this was all in school. Something happened during school that taught them to not be creative.
So, the school teaches the kids to be obedient, to sit still, and to get the same outcome from every kid. Right? There's an expected answer on every test.
And you're to try to get the answer that the teacher wants. That's not creative. So, the first thing to do to preserve their creativity is don't send them to school.
That's the safest bet. And then when you do homeschool them, which I think is the best environment for them, don't do what they do in school. To bring them home and to go to all this trouble just to do the same thing that they're doing in school is not worth the trouble.
So, you've got to not do what they're doing in school. And so, for me, that meant don't do worksheets, make the content interactive. So, I did rely on curriculum, but I didn't rely on the curriculum to be the teacher.
So, I get the content from the curriculum, and then I make it interactive using artistic, creative skills so that they can be creative. And I don't teach it out of them. So, if you have young kids, that's good news.
They're already creative. You just have to don't teach it out of them. If your kids are older and maybe they've been in school, then you might have to like undo some of that training and set up some experiences where you ask them or even like in my classes, I'll set up a challenge.
And I expect everyone's to be different because everybody's going to do it a little bit more creatively in their way. And so, at the end of class, instead of like calling out the answers to see if everybody got the same thing, they're holding up what they did and telling me what they were thinking. And everybody's is different.
And then I really praise the ones who did something different. Maybe they changed the colors. Maybe they put glasses on Mona Lisa.
You know, maybe they gave her a cat to hold. So, I reward thinking outside the box. Now to to pour in beauty, and I think I might have heard this from Charlotte Mason, beauty in, beauty out.
So, you've got to load them with beauty. Now, I think that we were naturally drawn to beauty and people will argue with me about this. They'll say, well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
But I betcha I could find something that's beautiful and do a survey. And I betcha I could get 100% of people to say, yes, that's beautiful. And I could find something else, maybe a Hindu goddess sculpture.
And I could find something that 100% people would say that is not beautiful. And so, I think that ingrained in some of us because we're created by God, I think we have a sense of appreciating beauty. I do think that it gets taught out of a lot of people.
So, with my kids, I show them a lot of beauty. And this can be as simple as get a coffee table book from the secondhand bookstore on art and put it on your coffee table. Get books from the library and have lots of beautiful things to look at.
And so, when I now when I was teaching my own kids, this is kind of a fly by the seat of my pants. Make it up as I go. Now that they've left home and I can think about it, I'm putting together books that are a little bit more thoughtful.
So, in my books, you will see I've chosen a piece of art that is beautiful and I will pair it with the lesson. And then I'll give you an art activity. So, for example, in Into the Woods, you'll see I've chosen a beautiful piece of art and I paired it with a poem, which is another piece of beauty.
Yes. And then I'll give you an art lesson so that they can get creative with it as well. So, it is this hard to pull it together.
So that's why I'm making books to help parents. So, you have something beautiful and something to do with it. And so, that's how I pour in beauty to give a beauty in beauty out.
Laura Dugger: (21:59 - 22:36)
I love that so much. And just even holding this resource, it is so beautiful. There's so much to it.
When it arrived, our daughters were delighted to go through it and to dive in and get to learn. But I'm just thinking many listeners are fellow homeschool parents and also many are not. But I don't want them to be discouraged because I'm even thinking of your courses or if they do intentional art in the evenings or on weekends or summer break and winter break.
There are still ways for all of us to incorporate this.
Courtney Sanford: (22:36 - 24:28)
Yes, for sure. Yeah. Even so, my mom, I was public school.
And of course, the word hadn't been invented back then, but my mom appreciates art and poetry and she would always have art books on the coffee table. And I would just stop and, you know, in my free time, flip through the pages. And those images stuck with me my whole life.
She had one that had a Monet on the cover of the Field of Red Poppies. And that was just ingrained in my mind as a piece of beauty. So just something as simple as putting it out on your coffee table.
She also took us to museums whenever we traveled. And she didn't make a big lesson out of it, but I was exposed to beautiful buildings. You know, most museums are in beautiful buildings.
You see the beautiful architecture. And I was exposed to a lot of art that way. So, that was that totally goes with which with summer vacations and your vacations to, you know, make an effort to see a gallery or an art museum when you're traveling.
That makes a big difference. It'll make an impression on them. And of course, the books you could do in the summer.
We have summer classes and we have an art retreat that might not line up with school because it's in May. But the books you could for sure add on. Hopefully someday we'll have evening classes so that you could go to school.
We've got some this coming year that will start at four o'clock. So, hopefully some kids can go to school and come home and join an art class. So, we're working on getting it out as we as I get teachers willing to.
Most of my teachers are homeschool moms, too. And by the end of the day, they're tired. So, I've got a few.
I've got a young lady who's just graduating and she's going to do some late afternoon ones for us next year. So pretty excited about that.
Laura Dugger: (24:28 - 25:04)
I love that. And then even thinking of the beauty and beauty out stepping outdoors. There's so much beauty in God's creation and so much change depending on where you live throughout the seasons.
But I love how you also brought up the library, because anytime I'm trying to learn something new, that's my first go to is put books on hold at the library. And so, if we're wanting to know what to add to our library cart just to get us started into this, can you share books that you recommend, both yours and others that you think would be good additions?
Courtney Sanford: (25:05 - 26:19)
Oh, that's a good question. Yes, there are. I love to think about the biographies of artists.
And if so, if you're studying ancient history, you could look up a biography on Giotto. And they're still tell the stories in such a nice, kid friendly way. Like there's the story of Giotto.
He was actually watching the sheep. And while he was out in the fields, he would draw on the sides of rocks like big rocks. But you get another rock and you would draw on the sides of rocks.
And another artist was walking through one day and he saw these drawings on the rocks. He was like, wow, you're really talented. Come with me.
I'll make you an apprentice. And those stories are just they're fun to read together and hear those kinds of stories. And of course, the Usborne books of art are beautiful and they often have projects for the kids to do.
I can't think of any specific ones, but I do love a short paperback on the particular artists. And so, I kind of line those up along with the period in history that we're studying.
Laura Dugger: (26:20 - 26:32)
That's great. And even you're making me think of picture book biographies on artists. We've always enjoyed those as well.
Obviously, the illustrations are fantastic, too, but the storylines are so interesting.
Courtney Sanford: (26:33 - 27:23)
Yes. So, I just grab whatever they have. I had a big laundry basket.
And and I know card and I just grab whatever I could find and sometimes let the kids choose. And sometimes I would choose. If you're going with geography, you can find beautiful photos of the different areas.
See the landscapes or the sunsets. And that can through photography. And you can really get to know a place through beautiful photographs.
I like that part, too. And then that might inspire a pastel drawing of a landscape. Maybe it's a beautiful sunset you could recreate with pastels.
So, photography books are really inspirational, too.
Laura Dugger: (27:23 - 28:10)
It's a great idea. And circling back, you had mentioned Andrew Pudewa earlier in our conversation. And I remember learning from him that with writing, the worst way we can teach our children is to say just free write, just write something down or here's a prompt to finish this sentence because better writing comes through imitating.
And so, you've even mentioned tracing is a great way to start. That's not cheating in art if you're not stealing credit from them. But if you're just practicing and tracing, this is a way to imitate.
And so, I'm wondering, do you have any other cautions for ways that may be the wrong way to introduce our kids to art?
Courtney Sanford: (28:11 - 30:50)
I agree that. Yeah, you can get writer's block. What I find funny is that some people are so afraid to imitate artists.
But if I were teaching piano, I would teach your kid how to play something by Bach in which he would learn what Bach did. And nobody would say I'm stealing from Bach. You know, and you learn to play Beethoven by playing Beethoven and you you learn to reproduce those pieces of music.
I do the same thing in art. We look at what the masters did and we'll copy it in order to learn what they knew. And that way we build.
We're like standing on the shoulders of giants. So, we don't want every kid to have to start with inventing the wheel themselves. We'd never get very far.
We want to learn what the masters knew and then build on that. So, I do a lot of imitation. And then as the students ready, I let them know you are free to change this or to experiment with it.
So just last week we were drawing and painting red poppies and learning about Georgia O'Keeffe. And so, I said we can do an imitation of her poppy. And I'll show you step by step how to reproduce her poppy.
And in doing that, we're going to cause us to look more closely at it and study her blends. Like she would blend from yellow to orange to red in every petal. And we can study that technique.
And then as we do it and we practice it, we look more closely at hers and it kind of becomes a part of us. And then we'll find another flower and we'll use that same technique on a flower that we choose. Or maybe it's a flower we make up and we take that technique and we can apply it.
And it's a much better way to learn than trying to learn it yourself without looking at what the masters did. So, I think that I think I pulled a lot of that from Andrew Pudewa. The idea of I'm going to assist you until you say I got this.
I can do it from here. So, I do assist until they get it. And then I always say whenever you're ready, as soon as you're ready, change it and make it your own or do your own thing.
And because turning them loose too soon can break their confidence. So, you want to build them up until they can confidently experiment on their own.
Laura Dugger: (30:51 - 32:34)
Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. I'm so excited to share today's sponsor, WinShape Marriage, with you. WinShape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that helps couples prepare, strengthen, and if needed, even save their marriage.
WinShape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured, even if it seems like things are going smoothly. That way they'll be stronger if they do hit a bump along their marital journey. Through their weekend retreats, WinShape Marriage invites couples to enjoy time away to simply focus on each other.
These weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of WinShape Retreat, perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is just a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham, and Chattanooga. While you and your spouse are there, you'll be well-fed, well-nurtured, and well-cared for. During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication, and so much more.
I've stayed on site at WinShape before, and I can attest to their generosity, food, and content. You will be so grateful you went. To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, WinShapeMarriage.org. That's W-I-N-S-H-A-P-E Marriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Well, and as parents, once we're past the resistance to maybe invest some of our time or our money or allow the mess into our home, but if we push past through that and we're ready to get started, I'd love to go over some practical tips.
So, Courtney, first, just what are some great art supplies to have on hand?
Courtney Sanford: (32:36 - 37:13)
A number two pencil and some Crayola markers you probably already have. Those are great tools. I like to have my kids work in an art journal, and you can get these real inexpensive at Michael's.
It'll say on the cover, mixed media art Journal, and they come in different sizes. I kind of like the big ones, and that will allow you to use paint, pencil, and marker or anything you want. If it says sketchbook, it's not going to hold up to paint very well.
So that's why I get the mixed media paper. So, I start with the art journal, and then I like to make that journal be their book on a subject. So right now, I'm doing ancient history with some kids, and so they are making their own book about ancient history.
So, every week we'll do a drawing or a painting or watercolor on a lesson in ancient history. And so, each piece is not a masterpiece to hang on the wall. Each piece is a part of the story in their book.
That takes all the pressure off. So, they don't see this as, I don't know if this is going to be good enough to hang on the wall. That's not even a question.
It's a part of the story in your book. They can also take some notes. They can show their grandparents and review the topic by presenting it to their grandparents and showing off their book.
And then you can collect their books and put them on a shelf. It's not all over the house making you crazy. And then you can see from year to year how their skills have improved.
So, I kind of like every year I like pick a topic to be the subject of our art journal. So, I call it arts integrated learning. So, I'm pairing an academic subject with art for that year.
So, it could be poetry. It could be history. It could be science.
Whatever you pick. That's what you'll add to your art journal with.
Pencils. I like blending tools too. There are some people call them stompies.
For those of you who are watching. Here's one. It's just rolled up newspaper, but you can buy these at Michael's.
They're really cheap. But it takes a drawing to the next level. You can just blend things out and shade things really lovely.
Mark Kistler does some videos and teaches you how to. He'll go shade, shade, shade. And so that's a good way to start.
And it really elevates a drawing and it gives them a lot of confidence. And then of course the good eraser. The book drawing with children is a really good one for our parents to read and then teach from in that book.
They suggest you have them draw with markers so that they don't spend an hour erasing. If you have someone who's a perfectionist, they will make one mark and spend 20 minutes erasing it. And so, if you go right to drawing with markers, that's gonna teach them to make a good mark first and then keep going and not spend half an hour erasing.
When I get to age nine or 10, I like to use acrylic paints, but I only buy four colors of paint and then I make them mix all the other colors. So, we use yellow, magenta, blue, and white. Those are like the colors in your printer.
Cyan, magenta, and yellow are the ones in your printer. And those colors can make all the other colors. Now your printer has black, but I don't give kids black.
Instead of black, they could make purple or brown or dark color. So, you know, you teach them how to mix the colors that they want. They'll learn to mix it because they want green or they want purple, or they want brown.
And then they develop a sense of color theory, and you don't even have to teach it. They'll figure it out because they want those colors. If they find, if, if you don't feel confident in that, you can buy craft colors of the specific colors, especially brown.
That's a hard one to mix. But I do like the coverage of acrylic paints. I like watercolors too.
That's a little bit easier to get into. You just take it slow and practice a lot. So that's really all you need.
It's pretty simple.
Laura Dugger: (37:14 - 37:27)
Well, and I'm wondering too, even with the acrylic paint at that age, once they're older, that one, I'm assuming can stain. So are there any tips that you have for containing the mess?
Courtney Sanford: (37:28 - 38:32)
Yes, I get, and they're a little bit hard to find. So go to Amazon and find a, a tablecloth that is plastic on one side and felt on the other side. I forget what you call it, but there'll be like picnic tables, tablecloths.
And the plastic ones are going to drive you crazy because they're too thin. So, if it's flannel backed, it's a little bit thicker. So I get a white one at the beginning of the year.
And that comes out anytime we do clay or paint, and it goes over the kitchen table and I don't worry about cleaning it. You just let it dry, fold it up. And I put mine in the China cabinet right there by the table.
And then anytime we do something messy, that tablecloth comes out and, and then just fold the mess back up in it. And it works, it works really great to, and then you might, if you're, if you're a neat freak, maybe plan on buying one at the beginning of every school year so that you get clean slates. And then the paint that gets onto the tablecloth is actually lovely and it'll be pretty next time you get it out.
Laura Dugger: (38:33 - 39:11)
Oh, I love that. That's a genius tip. I appreciate that for coming indoors because in the summer, I guess we could take it outside depending on where we live.
But then what about any hacks for finding the time to do this? And I guess I'm thinking back to a previous episode with Beth Rosenbleeth. She's the one who started Days with Grey and she would talk about different art prompts that she would set out for her children in the morning for a variety of ages.
But were there any things that kind of required minimal time from you, but had maximum return for your kids?
Courtney Sanford: (39:11 - 41:06)
Yeah, that's a good point. I had, I wouldn't say I had a strict schedule, but I had a pattern to my days. And the time after lunch was a good time to do messy things in the kitchen because we were in the kitchen anyway.
And as I could clean up lunch and start dinner, I could be in the kitchen with them and they could be creative at the kitchen table with minimum involvement from me. One of my best afternoons was we had the microscopes out to do something specific and I left it out as I was cooking chili. And as I cut up each ingredient, I would cut a thin slice for them to look at under the microscope.
And so they were looking at a bell pepper and a red pepper and celery and tomato. And they were so, they so enjoyed that and I was able to cook dinner at the same time, which was fabulous. And that turned, it was probably like a 15-minute science lesson into like four hours of discovering things under the microscope.
So that element of play and you can do that with your art supplies too. Like I'll demonstrate a technique and then leave it out. I'll turn my attention to cooking dinner while they see what else they can do with it.
And, um, you know, I'll give them a few tips. Like, um, if you mix these three colors together, you're going to make brown and then turn your back and let them discover it for themselves. So, um, I'm a big crock pot person.
And so after lunch would be the time I need to clean up lunch and put something in the crock pot. So that would be a good time for me to get them started on art or science and, um, and then turn my back and let them have that, um, that discovery time without me hovering or telling them what to do or something.
Laura Dugger: (41:06 - 41:22)
Oh, that's a great rhythm. I love these ideas. And then I kind of want to go in chunks of age.
So, thinking of little kids, how would you define the difference between a piece of art and a craft?
Courtney Sanford: (41:23 - 43:41)
Yeah, a craft is going to be something where the focus is on following directions and that's important. They need to learn how to follow directions. And so we would do, especially around the holidays, I might do a craft and we all follow directions.
Um, a piece of art is going to be where they're, they all come out different. They're allowed to play and express themselves. Um, for me personally, if I'm doing a craft when I'm done, I think, oh, I could make 50 of these and sell them.
If it's an art, when I'm done with a piece of art, like one of these paintings behind me, when I'm done with that, I'm thinking I could never do that again. That took so much out of me. I'm exhausted.
A little piece of my soul is in that that's art. That's the difference. Um, so I don't sell my paintings because there's a little piece of my soul in, um, my husband makes fun of me for that.
He's like, you could just sell your paintings. They're like, what? They're, they're like my babies.
I can't, I can't part with them. It took so much out of me to create them. Um, but a craft, yeah, I'll just give away things that are, that I just followed directions for, um, in terms of kids, younger kids will enjoy crafts, but getting to high school, they recognize it as slave labor and they don't want to do that.
They are in what the classical education people call the, the, um, poetic stage, you know, they want to express themselves and they want to be unique. I think this is why they get tattoos. The tattoo is a way of saying this is who I am.
This is what it means to me. I'm unique. Um, so I think if we don't teach them to express themselves in art, they're going to get tattoos.
So that might encourage moms to, to give them the skills so that they can express themselves. You know, they need to be able to write poetry or write songs or paint a painting or do a drawing. There's that need inside of us to do that that God put in us.
And if they don't have an outlet, then they're going to find something like tattoos or something that we don't want them to be doing. Yeah. I mean, some of my kids are tattooed.
It's not bad.
Laura Dugger: (43:42 - 44:25)
Well, and you've kind of answered a follow-up question I had because we talked about little kids, but I'm thinking of teens. So going back, my background is in marriage and family therapy, and we would encourage everyone that journaling is a free form of therapy. But I think of art as the same way.
And there's even studies that show when you're engaged in something artistic, the critical side of your brain goes offline. So you can't think negative thoughts while you're creating something new, but with teens, there's that added benefit of getting to express themselves. So is there anything else with art that you see as basically free therapy for adolescents?
Courtney Sanford: (44:26 - 46:54)
Oh, sure. I do see it a lot. I experienced it because I started my business because of the shutdown and because I was teaching in person and then I had to switch to online teaching.
And so, the group that I had moved online and I figured out how to do it and got a little bit better at it. And then that summer I offered a class for adults. These were directors and I was in classical conversations at the time.
And so a whole bunch of teachers are expected to teach Western cultural history without a lot of background. And so some of the moms asked me if I would do my art class for them. And so I had about a group of like 50 adults and we would get on for an hour and a half every day.
And this was at the height of the shutdown when turning on the news, just stresses you out. Going to the grocery store was stressful because people were in masks or they weren't in masks or, you know, we didn't know anything. It was such a stressful time, but that hour and a half that we had together, we, our focus was on discovering a piece of art.
So, we were looking at beautiful things and then we were creating something and that changed our focus from what was going on in the world. And we would just relax, and we'd enjoy it. Having the live class kept our focus on it.
And when I don't have a live class in front of me, I'll be like, oh, I should put the laundry in or I should start dinner and I get distracted. But with that, you know, with other people on zoom, it keeps me focused. And so, we'd have this wonderful hour and a half vacation from the world.
And after it was over, I would just have this sense of peace. And then I'd come down and be like, oh yeah, that's still going on. And it was, it was so good for our mental health.
And, and I get, I hear moms tell me that the hour and a half once a week they spend with me doing art has been such a blessing. Like one student lost her father a year ago and this is helping her. She said she's finally coming out of her depression and she's finding a way to express herself and find beauty again.
And it's, it's been transformative for some students. So, it is a blessing. And I didn't, I didn't read that somewhere.
That's just from my experience. So, I'm a big believer in that.
Laura Dugger: (46:54 - 47:51)
I can see why I think you're bringing up two points. I don't want to miss both with art therapy and then also art in community. So art and community first, I think for all of us at any age, what can we do as this is airing probably when everybody's getting out for summertime, how can we gather others alongside of us for whether it's our kids or us as peers to get to engage in these activities together.
And so, I want to follow up with you on that, but also before I lose my thought, I also want to link back to Karen Pence's episode. She had started art therapy for veterans, I believe, and just incredible. The healing that is possible through this.
So, do you have any thoughts Courtney on ways that we can this summer gather together community at different ages and do something artistic?
Courtney Sanford: (47:51 - 52:15)
That is a good question. So, we have, I have found the online classes are the easiest for people to get to. And it's I get people ask if we can do it in person, but honestly it's hard to get people out or they're busy.
They're doing things in summer. So, we do offer a class online in the summer that's live. We have recorded classes that you could do alone or get a few people together and, do them together.
I have some sampler packs too. So, some of them are just three lessons. You could get some friends together and find, maybe you could find three, three times during the summer to do.
I have like a Vango sampler pack and a couple of short ones that you could just pay for the video and do with your friends or maybe a mother daughter event. Maybe you do the self-paced class with your daughter. And I've had some seniors, like seniors in high school, do a mother daughter class together and just say, this is such a good time for us to spend a little bit of time together, a little bonus time before they go off to college.
During the school year, we have, I have a watercolor artist friends. She lives near me and she's a professional watercolor artist and she does the class called Bible journaling. And that is a beautiful combination of a devotion and a watercolor time together.
Those are hour and a half classes too. And they meet once a week. And we sometimes we'll have grandmas, we'll have high school students, we'll have mother daughter pairs do it together.
And they actually have a little prayer time, a little study of scripture. And then then Kate teaches them step-by-step how to do a beautiful watercolor and incorporate some hand lettering in it. So that's just a beautiful fun time together.
So I highly recommend her class during the school year. If, if a mom could get away, or if you have a high school daughter to do it together, that is a great experience. And then I have a short version of art history that you could do with friends or your high school daughter.
It's called paint your way through marvelous to behold, which is just 12 lessons that goes through. And that's a variety of drawing and painting. If you wanted to do something like that.
So, lots of things, or you can check out the books. And if you feel confident following step-by-step instructions in a book, you could use the book or a combination of videos and books. If you're feeling kind of like you could lead a art group, you could get the cell page video, watch the video and then do, you know, exactly what I said, do that live with a group.
And if you have any art experience doing that, you could get, probably get, I would like invite all the homeschool moms in your co-op group to get together. And I do some, sometimes I'll go to do a mom's group, do a watercolor or I love to do the milkmaid with moms because the milkmaid is this beautiful painting from the Dutch masters of a woman cooking. She's just pouring milk.
I think she's making bread pudding and it's just so beautiful. It's like, what I think I look like homeschooling. I'm wearing like a long gold gown and those suns coming in and everything's perfect.
I'm like, this is the ideal. This is what I think homeschooling is going to look like. And then I kind of use that painting as a launch pad for painting Delft tiles from the period.
And so sometimes I'll, I'll do that with some homeschool moms because I like to encourage homeschool moms. I know it's hard. And I had some mentors when I was homeschooling that I really appreciated.
So, I'm always happy to, to be the support and be able to say it's worth it. Keep going. I know you're driving a crappy car, but it will be worth it.
And so, the sacrifices you make now totally pay off. And you know, before I know it, my son is going to be homeschooling his daughter. She's seven months now, but it's going to fly by, you know, she'll be four before you know it.
And I'll be teaching her how to paint. I suppose.
Laura Dugger: (52:16 - 53:13)
When was the first time you listened to an episode of The Savvy Sauce? How did you hear about our podcast? Did a friend share it with you?
Will you be willing to be that friend now and text five other friends or post on your socials, anything about The Savvy Sauce that you love? If you share your favorite episodes, that is how we continue to expand our reach and get the good news of Jesus Christ in more ears across the world. So, we need your help.
Another way to help us grow is to leave a five-star review on Apple podcasts. Each of these suggestions will cost you less than a minute, but it will be a great benefit to us. Thank you so much for being willing to be generous with your time and share. We appreciate you.
I don't want to miss what website to direct everyone to. If they want to sign up for one of these classes, where's the best place to follow up?
Courtney Sanford: (53:14 - 54:27)
Go to delightfulartco.com and on that page, you'll see live classes, self-paced classes, summer retreats. I've done adult retreats before. I'd be open to doing it again if people want to.
So, I have, I would call it private retreats. So, if you want to get a group of women together, maybe somebody has a beach house, I'll come and do the art. It could be a one day, two day, or three-day event.
So that's an option. And we have self-paced classes. So, lots of things to look at.
I have a lot of sample classes on the website too. If you want to drop in and see what they're like. I think there's a how to paint Monet's water lilies is on the site.
You can watch that and see what it's like. Some people are afraid to try an online art class, but we all loved Bob Ross, and we watched him. So, if you can imagine saying, Bob, stop, could you do that again?
That's what my classes are like, and I'll be happy to stop and show you again. And then you can hold up your work at the end and I can give you some feedback. So, I'm like the new Bob Ross.
Laura Dugger: (54:27 - 54:46)
There you go. That's wonderful. Thank you for sharing that.
And Courtney, I just have a couple more questions for you. If let's turn it back to parenting. If we want to get started today and we just want next step to get started.
What is an art prompt that we can still try today?
Courtney Sanford: (54:47 - 57:26)
I would look at what you're, what, what are you teaching your kids? So, if you're teaching them, maybe you have a library book on the coffee table that you're studying biology. Pull out one thing from that and draw what you see and reproduce that.
Just one drawing a week. And before you know it, you'll have a whole biology book. So, I like to instead of saying parents, you have to add on another course.
You have to add art to everything else you're doing. Slide it into what you're already doing and it will enhance what they remember about that. And it's not like a whole other subject.
So just use art as a tool to help them remember what you want them to learn anyway. So, anything you want them to teach, if you have a photo or a drawing, have them trace it or draw it. I actually another good way to start is if you have little kids and Bible story time, let them draw what you're reading about.
My son loved to do stick figures. So, I have the whole Bible told in stick figures from when I'm from my youngest kid. And it is fabulous, especially like Sodom and Gomorrah.
And, you know, there's a lot of violent stuff. Boys love that stuff. So, he illustrated a lot of the Old Testament because I read it every morning, and he would just draw what he heard me.
I think I was using the Children's Illustrated Bible. So, he had some things to look at. That's another great way to get started.
Just let them look at the story and draw in their own art journal. So, there's so many fun ways you can use it in every subject. I had a mom tell me she read me an email.
She said, my daughter is just blooming in your classes. I wish every subject could be taught with an art journal and a paint palette. And I replied, we're working on it.
We're we've got we've got Latin and art, science and art, literature and art. There's just so many ways to find inspiration and what you're already studying and find the beauty in that subject. So, in our site, our art and biology course, students do a beautiful watercolor of the DNA strand.
And they draw the cell in watercolor. And it's just beautiful. And it helps them remember it and practices their art skills.
So, it's like a two for one. Think of it as a two for one. Take art and put it in another subject.
Laura Dugger: (57:26 - 57:46)
I love win wins. That sounds amazing. And Courtney, I just have one final question for you today.
We are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so is my final question for you today. What is your savvy sauce?
Courtney Sanford: (57:47 - 58:15)
The beauty, in beauty out, has been kind of my savvy sauce and also as unto the Lord. So, whatever I do, I do as unto the Lord. If I'm homeschooling, I'm teaching biology.
I'm going to do as unto the Lord. I'm not going to hand out a worksheet. I'm going to make it.
I'm going to make it a great experience. So, I would have to say whatever you do, do it wholeheartedly as unto the Lord and not for men.
Laura Dugger: (58:16 - 58:36)
What a great place to end. Courtney, you are so inspiring. You've given us great ideas and kind of confidence to get to put this into practice.
Even if we're not artists like you, we're all created in God's image and therefore can be creative. So, thank you for your time and wisdom today. Thank you so much for being my guest.
Courtney Sanford: (58:37 - 58:40)
You are sure welcome. I had a great time. It's good to talk to you.
Laura Dugger: (58:41 - 1:02:25)
You as well. One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?
It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?
Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?
We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.
We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.
Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.
I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.
I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday May 19, 2025
Monday May 19, 2025
263. Domestic Violence and Abuse: Identifying and Healing from Abusive Relationships with Stacey Womack
Mark 10:27 NKJV "But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
**Transcription Below**
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
- Will you teach us about the various types of abuse?
- How do we respond appropriately and in a Christ-like manner when someone does report abuse?
- What are your views for having biblical reasons for divorce, specifically as it relates to each type of abuse?
Stacey Womack is an award-winning expert in domestic violence from a faith-based perspective. She founded Abuse Recovery Ministry & Services (ARMS) in 1997 and she is a published author and sought after national speaker. Stacey developed and wrote the curriculum used for ARMS programs, including Her Journey for survivors of abuse and Mankind and Virtue for men and women who have used abusive behaviors. She has assisted tens of thousands of people in recovering from both the receiving and giving of abuse. Her passion has grown ARMS, a small grassroots organization, to now having an international reach.
Abuse Recovery Ministry & Services Website
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Grace Catering
Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce:
146 Biblical Response to Emotionally Destructive Relationships with Leslie Vernick
148 Overcoming Evil with Good: Recognizing Spiritual Abuse with Dr. Diane Langberg
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:50)
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
Today's episode includes some thematic material. I want you to be aware before you listen in the presence of little ears.
For anyone who feels like they don't have time to cook, but they still desire to have meals that taste just like grandma's, I can't wait to share more about one of my favorite sponsors, Grace Catering Company. Check them out today at gracecateringcompany.com.
Stacey Womack is my guest today. She is the award-winning expert in domestic violence from a faith-based perspective. She is the founder of Abuse Recovery Ministry and Services, which she will refer to as ARMS, and she's also the author of this practical and helpful resource entitled On the Front Lines of Abuse, Strategies for the Faith Community.
Stacey fearlessly answers questions today about what defines abuse, what steps can we take today to discover if we're in an abusive relationship, what does the Bible have to say about abuse and divorce, and so much more. Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Stacey.
Stacey Womack:
Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here.
Laura Dugger:
Would you mind just starting us off by giving us a current snapshot of your phase of life?
Stacey Womack: (1:52 - 2:48)
Sure. You know, I've been doing this work for 27 years, but actually I grew up in a pastor's home and married young and had my children young. I have six children, and I have my 13th grandchild on the way, and my first great-grandchild is due in December. And in the midst of homeschooling my kids back in the day, God began to speak to me about ministry that he had for me.
And so, this was the door he opened, even though I'm not a survivor of abuse. And back then I never had planned on starting a nonprofit or, you know, having it be the way it is, never planned on having an income off of it. None of that was a part of the plan.
I was just being obedient to what God had called me to do. And so here we are today, 27 years later, providing services nationally and internationally to victims and survivors of abuse and also working with those who use abusive and controlling behaviors.
Laura Dugger: (2:50 - 3:12)
Wow. And abuse is something that's so difficult to understand, and it's a topic that's easy for us to want to avoid. But I appreciate you bringing awareness to this topic that affects more people than we would ever suspect.
So, will you just teach us the various types of abuse?
Stacey Womack: (3:12 - 12:56)
Sure. So, I'll try to go through them fairly briefly for you, but most of the time they only give you a few, but we have eight different areas of abuse that we talk about. So, you know, most people get physical abuse.
That's how most people define domestic violence and abuse is physical, which is all the things from hitting, pushing, slapping, grabbing, strangulation, which is something that's very dangerous. And a person's at risk of dying days and weeks after being strangled, even months after being strangled. So, it's a very serious crime.
Most states it's a felony. But every category has those things that aren't as obvious. So, in physical, it would be like posturing where someone stands up or takes a step towards you, it's right in your space.
The most common form of abuse is psychological, though. This is what is often called emotional abuse by most people. So psychological abuse, I kind of divided into three categories.
The largest one is the crazy making the mind games, the mental coercion, the gaslighting, all those things. And that's very, very hard to explain to people. And it doesn't look like abuse.
It looks like non-memorable conflict oftentimes and gets misdiagnosed that way, I guess you could say. And it's the form of abuse that women say is the hardest to heal from because bruises heal. But the emotional ones that psychological abuse causes can take years and years to heal from.
So also, another big category besides the mind games is the isolation. So, keeping them from friends and family could be outright telling them not to spend time with friends and family, or it could be, you know, allowing them to go spend time with friends and family, but then they pay for it later. So, there's some type of punishment for doing that.
Moving her from place to place, or church to church, to keep her from having any kind of support. So that's very common. And then another category in here, and I'm just keeping them very brief, is stalking behaviors, which stalking should be taken very seriously because 75% of those who commit homicides are stalkers.
So, this is everything from following, showing up uninvited, not leaving when asked, to the use of spyware, which is often free or cheap. So, you know, those air pods, they drop them in people's purses or put them in places in their car or whatever, just so they can follow them where they're going, those types of things. And among our younger generation, a common stalking behavior would be multiple calling and multiple texting.
So, the second closest that comes to emotional abuse would be verbal abuse. And most of us get the types of verbal abuse that are obvious, the yelling, the swearing, the name calling, the, you know, put downs. I mean, things that are really obvious.
And this is a huge category and not well understood because we have all used some verbal abuse in our lives. So, everything down to things that are more subtle, like the silent treatment as a way to control the conversation or sarcasm, which is actually means the tearing of flesh. So, it's not a healthy way to communicate.
There's a little bit of truth to it. That's what makes it funny. But it's always at someone's expense.
And we live in a pretty sarcastic world. And I, myself, can be pretty sarcastic at times after really watch that because it's really not a kind way to communicate. So, again, this is a huge category.
So, we have verbal, psychological, physical, financial, lots of financial control and abusive relationships. Most of our men who are abusive use financial control. So, he's making all the financial decisions.
He's controlling the finances, or he allows her to have some access to finances, but not all by hiding assets and hidden accounts, things like that. Or maybe making her handle all the finances while he goes out and misspends. So, then it's her fault.
And now he has a reason to abuse her. And even once they separate, financial abuse continues by not paying a spousal or child support. So, I tell our women to not depend on that, do what they need to do legally, but not to depend on it because it's very hard to get that money back.
So, we have verbal, psychological, physical, financial, sexual, which people get that one too. Rape, unwanted touch, attacking body parts, making her dress a certain way or not dress a certain way. It could include extreme jealousy, which is, again, goes right back into those stalking behaviors.
So, it's these pornography affairs, sexual name calling or sexual putdowns or sexual jokes. Again, another really big category. So that a lot of times some more subtle things that people don't recognize as being abusive because a lot of people use it, like the sexual name calling or sexual using sexual cuss words.
So, I always have to go through those verbal, psychological, physical, financial, sexual property. We don't always think about property being abusive. But if an abuser can convince his victim that he's dangerous, he never has to be physical.
And so, he might punch the hole right next to your head. I had a woman tell me this. And then he saw the fear in her face, and he said, “What? I didn't even touch you.” But the message was, this is what could happen to you. So, property is not always it can include, but it is not always the breaking of things or throwing things.
It could be slamming doors, slamming hands on the table. But it could also be moving property to make her think she's going crazy. So, she has a place she keeps her keys. He moves them to make her think she's going crazy, that she can't remember where she's putting things anymore.
So, you always have an overlap in an abusive event. It's never just one form of abuse unless it's just psychological and very subtle. But property abuse also includes the use of weapons.
In the groups that we've been doing with men for the more than two decades that we've been working with them, usually they're not using the weapon there. It's the implied threat of use of weapons. So, we had one woman who went to her boyfriend's house, and he came out of his bedroom with a knife and laid it on the table and said, “I just don't know what I'd do if you left me.”
Or we had many guys in the program for tapping knives while they create and continue arguments with their partners. So, it could be any misuse of any property. It could even be gift giving to get her to comply back into the relationship.
So, it's not always what you think of when you think of like guns and knives. It doesn't have to be that way. It can be very subtle.
So then we have spiritual abuse, spiritual abuse. Since we're a faith-based organization, we talk about the misuse of scripture. So, he's using scripture to get her to comply, to get his way.
And God's word is a balance between judgment and love and mercy. And when you remove that love and they're just going with the judgment side of God's word, you are misusing God's word. It's not what God intended for his word.
He did not ever intend for the word to be weaponized against a person, especially in an intimate relationship. So, we talk about the difference between submission and oppression and how they are different from one another in our groups. It's also for our men who attend church regularly.
I always tell pastors, if you've got a man who's coming to you and he's working his way through the church leadership and he's being very humble and he's telling you that he knows he has his issue, but he's concerned for his wife that he's not really being abusive. That she just thinks he's being abusive to her because she's experienced abuse in the past or she has mental health issues or she's cheating on him, which is usually not true. They're doing this to discredit her while they're doing what we call public image management to make themselves look good to the public.
So, they're involved in all kinds of things. It may be on the church council. So, you know, when they tell their church leadership this, it's hard to believe.
It's hard for them to believe when she comes forward and says this is what's actually going on in my relationship because they've not experienced that from him. He's been a great guy around them. So, questioning her theology, her salvation, keeping her from going to church, making her go to church, moving her from church to church, things like that, too.
And then the last one is animal abuse. And of course, we think about harming animals. And of course, when you harm an animal, that is animal abuse.
But in terms of the work we do, it's about using the animal to control the person in some way. And that might include the threat to get rid of it, the threat to harm or the threat to kill or the doing of those things or neglecting, not like not feeding or watering the pet. But it could also be things like getting a pet she's allergic to or afraid of or withholding affection from her while he's being overly affectionate to the pet.
We have lots of women who tell us about that. So, again, it's not about necessarily harming the pet as much as it is about using the pet to gain control. You have to remember that abuse is about power and control and abuse means the misuse of.
So, anything can be misused, not just physical hitting and punching and misuse of our strength, but anything can be misused. And when it's used to gain power and control in an intimate relationship. It's a pattern; that's when you're looking at someone who has an abusive personality.
Laura Dugger: (12:57 - 13:27)
Wow. Thank you for laying that foundation and expanding our definition. It sounds like so many sins, domestic violence can be insidious, and it can usually begin with a very charming spouse who eventually becomes more and more abusive.
So, have you found that people more easily recognize when they're in an abusive relationship or is it surprising and confusing to them?
Stacey Womack: (13:28 - 16:58)
It's mostly confusing and surprising, maybe in that order. You know, since I work with these men, too, there are really great things about them. There's really good qualities I see in them.
And that's what these women fall in love with, these really great qualities. And these men can be extremely charming. And even if you haven't been raised in abuse and you find yourself in an abusive relationship, sometimes it's because you were in a really vulnerable place when you got involved.
And it just felt really good to have somebody come in and be so big and strong and great in your life. Or there's other times guys are just so good at this that they're just believe completely. There's no reason not to believe, right?
I mean, you trust somebody because you expect them to be telling you the truth. So, it usually starts off very subtle and it gradually increases. So, he might start questioning.
So, is that what you're going to wear? Or, you know, well, that's a lot of makeup. Or maybe, you know, telling her that he doesn't agree with something that she agrees with and that maybe her friends and family aren't good for her and maybe she needs to distance herself from them.
We've had women tell us that that happens to them. So, we have a checklist on our website under am I in an abusive relationship, basically. And underneath that, there's actually a PDF that they can print out and check off.
And it usually starts off with things like, are you surprised by his anger? Does his anger scare you? You know, and then we work down to more obvious forms of abuse.
But when a woman goes through that list and it's actually degenerate. So, a male or a female could go through the list. And they could go through it and they could determine, am I experiencing a pattern of these behaviors in my life?
Marriage should be the safest place for you. And when it's not, there's something wrong there. And we do work with women who are abusive.
So, I do want to acknowledge that there are male victims out there. And when they call us, since we don't have a group for them, because perpetrators believe they are the victims. So, if I opened a men's victim group, I would get a room full of perpetrators.
Male victims tend to say very similar things to our female victims and behave in very similar ways that our women behave as well. And so, we refer them out to counselors that we trust. And, you know, and women can be what we call primary aggressors in the relationship.
And they act and talk and say the same kinds of things as our male primary aggressors. And most primary aggressors are male because it just works better for them. They're bigger, they're stronger, they're given privilege that women are not given.
So, it just works better for them. But there are women out there who do that. And then there's those relationships where both parties are using abused.
But one is a primary and one is a secondary. It doesn't make the abuse okay. It doesn't even make it okay when you or I say something or act in a way that disregards or disrespects another person.
That's sin. So, I think that we need to be really honest with the fact that this is a human issue. And that it's okay to come out and say, you know what, I have a problem with this.
And I need help. And that's what we're trying to offer for both the men and the women that we serve.
Laura Dugger: (16:59 - 17:21)
And I'm just simplifying it. But in my mind, when you talk about primary and secondary, it makes me think for that secondary person, just simply hurt people, hurt people. So, is that what you're talking about?
Where they are not the initiators of the abusive behavior, but when they are abused over time, they respond with abusive patterns as well?
Stacey Womack: (17:21 - 19:17)
Yeah, abuse is a learned behavior. So, if they grew up in a home where abuse was present, you know, as much as you don't like some of those negative things that we all get from growing up, we get good things and bad things. We often end up repeating them until we learn something different. And so, some of our women in our secondary aggressors program, you know, have had to fight their entire life to survive.
And sometimes it's just safer to be the aggressor than it is to be the victim. And so, a lot of times when women are using abusive behaviors, it's more about trying to be heard or it's payback. So, they don't really gain power and control from their abuse, not really.
It's usually when they're abusive, the women are just getting payback for what their abuser did. So, one woman, her and her husband had an argument and he's this big guy. And so, to get back at him, we would call this properly anal and psychological.
She took the pillow and rubbed it all over the cat because he's allergic to cats and put the pillow back on the bed so he'd wake up with puffy eyes. It's a very passive form of abuse, but it is a way to get back at him. And then we have those women who just fight back verbally and they can.
I had this little gal, not probably hardly even 100 pounds. She could bring a 200 pound, six foot tall husband to his knees with just her words. And this is a woman who had to fight her entire life.
So, you know, you can see there's times where relationships where there's more. I don't really like the word mutual, but there's they're both using abusive behaviors, but it's the only way they know how to live life. And so, the women come out of this program saying, now I understand that his abuse to me does not excuse my abuse to him.
And I have power to make choices that will bring change to my life. And that's a powerful place to be much more powerful than being a victim.
Laura Dugger: (19:18 - 19:45)
Absolutely. And I think the hope that I'm hearing is when you say abuse is a learned behavior. Does that mean we can learn our way out of it as well?
So, anyone who is in an abusive relationship or is finding if they're listening to this, maybe they find out that they are the abuser, you can learn your way out of it then?
Stacey Womack: (19:45 - 21:27)
You can. It takes a tremendous amount of work. But both the victim and the perpetrator or the survivor, they have to learn new tools, both of them, because we have women who get out of abusive relationships who find themselves right back into another abusive relationship.
The tools that women use in abusive relationships are amazing. The ways that they do things to survive the abuse is absolutely amazing. But those same tools do not serve them well once they're out of abuse.
Some of them get into healthy relationships, but they're still using those old tools that they picked up during the abusive relationship. And so, they come to group a recovery group so that they can heal from that and learn a new way and let go of that pain and hurt and learn behavior so that they can also be healthy in that relationship with that new partner. So, and he also and for the abuser, someone who's like this is they've been the primary aggressor in the relationship and they have a lifetime of picking up belief systems that have given them permission to behave that way.
And that doesn't change in 12 weeks. Programs for those guys and those gals should be long; thirty-six weeks the absolute minimum. I think a year or even two years is better because you need practice to sustain change. We have lots of guys who change, but getting that sustained change takes lots of accountability and lots of hard work.
And it's difficult to do. But we have those stories of couples that make it. There's a lot more that don't make it.
All the men make some changes, but often not enough to save the relationship. So, it varies.
Laura Dugger: (21:27 - 23:38)
And now a brief message from our sponsor, Grace Catering Company in North Peoria offers a rotating menu of scrumptious meals for you to take home and pop in your own oven with family friendly options like lasagna, bacon wrapped meatloaves, chicken Alfredo pasta, breakfast burritos and creamy garlic chicken breasts. Your homemade dinner will be on the table in no time. They also offer healthier and lighter options as well as some gluten-free and keto-friendly choices.
The meals are packaged in a variety of sizes, which makes it perfect for individuals or couples, or they have portions large enough to feed the entire family. Their menu is on a six-week rotation. You can stop by for a grab and go lunch with their signature sandwiches, salads, soups or quinoa bowls depending on the season.
I also recommend you top off your meal with one of their sweet treats, such as their popular scotcheroos, iced sugar or chocolate chip cookies, or their cookie of the month. The founder and owner Renee Endres has also created my all-time favorite cookbook. My grandparents actually gave this to me as a gift when I was a newlywed and it has been put to great use for the past decade and a half.
The recipes are easy and approachable and the feedback from our family and from guests we've hosted in our home has always been positive when the meal came from Renee. When I've gifted this cookbook to friends, they will commonly remark how these are also the most delicious desserts they've ever tasted. Our extended family also loves to use the take and bake options on Sunday afternoons, which allows us to enjoy a delectable meal while still getting to enjoy a true Sabbath.
Grace Catering Company is located just off Alta Lane in North Florida. Check them out today at gracecateringcompany.com.
Well, and with your programs, what are some of the things that you do offer for someone who finds themselves in an abusive relationship?
Stacey Womack: (23:40 - 28:08)
Yeah, so our largest program is called Her Journey and it's a victim survivor recovery program. So, it doesn't matter what form of abuse you experienced or are experiencing. It could be years ago even.
And we have this, it's a 15 week program, but we lead it year-round so you can just start immediately. It's one of the things that we found out as we've been doing this national campaign is that we're the only ones that we've found that are free. It's a free program.
We have Zoom. So, we have every day of the week covered. If we don't have something right in your own state, in your county.
But we're in-person groups in 21 states right now and looking to lead more or teach more leaders how to lead the program in their community, or in their centers, or in their missions. They're often held in churches. It's all confidential.
The women just call in. They don't have to give us their real name. They don't have to give us any information.
They don't want to. We just ask whatever name they use. They keep using the same name so we don't care if they say their name is Minnie Mouse.
That's fine with us. Just so that we can keep track of it for grant purposes. But in that group, it's not a process group.
It's really about hearing God's heart around this issue. And they do get training around domestic violence. But we also go through other topics like dealing with anger, depression and loneliness and just all the different things that happen throughout this process.
Learning how to appropriately boundary set and what to do and what's going to work with an abuser. What's not going to work with an abuser. Those types of things. And so, we found that we just keep it open so the women can join immediately. Because if we don't help them right when they're asking for the help, we'll lose them because the abuser will very quickly work to move them back into the relationship, which is part of the cycle of abuse. And because we want the relationship to work and we want to believe him, we do.
And so, women, you know, leave on average seven times before they leave for good because we don't get into a relationship to see it in. And so, when I talk and train pastors and I had a pastor say, “Well, she's just looking for a way out.” I'm like, “No, that's not true.”
These women do everything, including couples counseling, which is something that does not work when abuse is the issue and power control is the issue. And most pastors that I haven't heard of any seminary that actually does a whole course on domestic violence, they get a little bit of couples counseling and that's it. And even counselors don't get trained in domestic violence.
So, this is only a very small portion of counselors. So, I would tell these women, if you're listening to this now, that they shouldn't do couples counseling, but they should look for a counselor who has 40 hours of victim advocacy training from an advocacy agency and that he needs to go work on his own issues with an agency that deals with domestic abuse intervention. And a lot of times the things that she thinks, or they both think, they need couples counseling for go completely away once he does the work he needs to do.
So, the communication problems, the anger issues, all those things that they think are the cause are no longer an issue. Most of our couples don't even need couples counseling after this because he has learned to love like Jesus loves. That's what we teach is like, what does that mean to be Christlike?
What does that mean to lay your life down? So, but during our time that we work with women or men, secondary or primary aggressors, female or male, we in our groups talk about focusing on that themselves and their relationship with God and not focusing outward because God will take care of that. Sure, pray about it, but release it.
That's God's responsibility. You only have control of this relationship is between yourself and God. And that's where you're going to seek Him about what He's calling you to do in this situation.
And every person's a little bit different. It's not my place to tell someone whether to leave or stay. And we're not here to promote divorce.
And we know the women want their relationships to work. We know they want men to make it to the other side. We do, too, but we cannot make that happen.
So, all we can do is present the information and allow the Holy Spirit to do the work. And the person has to be willing to receive the help.
Laura Dugger: (28:09 - 28:35)
Absolutely. Well, and I even think about how this conversation came about. We had multiple women of different ages, all of them believers, who were reaching out and sharing a little bit of their experience in marriage and sharing some potential abuse.
And I actually reached out to some publicists that I work with and said, “Who would be able to speak to this?” And so that's how we got connected.
Stacey Womack: (28:36 - 28:36)
Yeah.
Laura Dugger: (28:36 - 28:54)
Very much appreciated your book. And as I was reading it, there was one story that was particularly haunting. And it was about a pastor who ended up begging you for training.
So, can you recall what happened?
Stacey Womack: (28:54 - 34:09)
Yeah. You know, a lot of pastors just it's not that they don't care. It's just that they're very uneducated around this.
So even myself, when I first started, I would give people really unhelpful advice before I even began this work because I didn't understand it well. And so, he had encouraged this woman to forgive and go back, which is a typical response. You know, submit more, pray harder.
Those are the kinds of things that a lot of women get from churches. And so, she did. She went home and then he murdered her that night.
And so, this pastor was absolutely heartbroken, as you can imagine, and was calling in and asking, please, please, please train us because we don't want this to ever happen again. You know, and honestly, there are some pastors out there that believe that women should stay in the relationship, even if they are being abused and that God will bless them through their suffering, even if it means death. I don't agree with that.
See, I think that God would never sacrifice a person for the sake of the relationship. But we do as the church sometimes because we're so concerned about the relationship. The relationship is important and God has got a reconciliation and we want reconciliation, too.
But God also tells us the prudent man or woman hides from danger and he cares about us as individuals. And He has called us to live life abundantly, not to just bear it, you know. And so, I think that we need to really look at that.
And being raised as a pastor's daughter that, you know, I was taught that way. So, it was a really it's been really hard, you know, working in the faith communities really struggles with this. And, you know, this idea that, well, a separation might lead to divorce.
But separation is really functional in these relationships because she needs safety so that she can talk, speak the truth from this other person. And she needs time to see whether or not he's willing to actually get the help that he's been promising he'll get. And they need time to see if he can actually work through that.
Or is he just using a program as another controlling behavior to get her to come back into a relationship? If she waits long enough and we usually say six months and he's mad that she's not letting him back home. He goes right back to all the bad behaviors he was doing before.
And he pulls all the money out of the bank and does all these crazy things. And she has her answer, which is heartbreaking. The women are heartbroken over this because they want their relationships to work.
We cannot emphasize that enough to the faith community. These women want their relationships to work and that they did not sign up for this. They did not sign up for these.
They did not say, “Oh, yes, I am agreeing to get married and be abused.” That's how they agreed to. And he made a promise to love and cherish.
And the Bible commands men to love their wives like Christ loves the church and to lay his life down. That means he gives up his way to bless her, that Jesus came to serve, not to be served. So, his role is one of being the lead servant in the relationship.
He should be the first to be serving her. And how do we respond as women? We feel loved and cherished and cared for when that happens.
My husband's so good at this. I have to be careful if I say I'm thirsty, he's up getting me a glass of water. He's so quick to serve.
But this is the kind of behavior that blesses us. And men are surprised that the very thing they want, the respect, honor, all those kinds of things. They get it by doing the very opposite of what they're doing, by giving up their way, by embracing humility.
And humility is hard because it means it's not about being 50-50 or being fair. It's about going 100 percent or more. So, my husband would share because he leads manuscripts with me.
And he says, you know, guys, you know, if Stacy's at 20 percent, then I need to go 180. I need to go in and fill in that gap for her. And there's times I do that for him, too, because unhealthy relationships like that's what we do for women.
But an abusive relationship, that's never what happens. And an abuser has and this is very popular, a narcissistic view of his world. He may not realize that it doesn't mean he has narcissistic personality disorder.
Those guys are very different and they stick out sore thumbs, but they all behave narcissistic, narcissistically, meaning their world revolves around them. So, they want you to manage their emotions. They blame you for when they're unhappy.
And even if you weren't even present, when whatever happened, that he's unhappy that he still blames you for it, which doesn't make sense. It's that crazy making. It's like, “Wow, how am I the cause of this when this happened at work? I don't understand.” You know, so there's all that craziness that goes on.
But, you know, I'm so honored to get to walk alongside men and women in their process of change and their aha moments and their realization that God loves them and that God values them and that they're important and they're regarded. And that because of that, abuse is never OK. It's never OK.
Laura Dugger: (34:10 - 35:21)
The few follow ups with that, then to go back to an earlier point, you're making a connection for me where I'm thinking back to a few episodes. It was one was with Leslie Vernick and one was with Dr. Diane Langberg. So, I can't remember who said this.
I can link to both in the show notes, but it's what you're speaking to that as we study the scriptures and we see Christ likeness and how to become more Christ like and what God really says about these topics. They were pointing out he cares about the individual more than the institution. Yeah.
And so, I think there's a lot of re-education for us in the faith community, unfortunately. But then also two follow up questions. One, as you're talking about narcissism or a narcissistic outlook, is there ever from your experience?
I'm familiar with some of my friends who are in relationships like that or acquaintances that I know. Is there ever hope for the husband who has narcissistic tendencies or personality disorder to repent? Have you ever seen that?
Stacey Womack: (35:21 - 37:16)
Absolutely. We have men who've done a really great job of working away from being self-focused and selfish. That's really what it is.
They read these journals and we make comments on them and they have to come up with the beliefs that gave them permission to behave this way. So, we had one guy and you could just see a selfishness that I always wrote. The belief is I'm most important.
I've read it every on every single journal. And he finally came to group after a few months because I really realize I'm really selfish. And so, as we help them to see this, it begins to change things and they begin to make different choices and try new things.
As someone who has a narcissistic personality disorder, like any personality disorder, those are not medicated. They can't be medicated and it takes a longer time. So, I've had some training on narcissistic personality disorder and I recognize those guys.
Any of those guys generally with personality disorders because they don't see themselves. So, the group laughs at things I say, but they don't understand why they're laughing. And those guys need like seven years of counseling with someone who specializes in narcissistic personality disorder.
If they're willing to do the work that that they can actually make changes. And there's a gentleman who who's travels the country speaking on this. He says that's his favorite group of population he works with.
I can't say the word narcissistic personality disorder men. And he says, you would like this man today. But he had like multiple failed businesses.
He'd been very successful, but they're failing businesses, failing marriage. And he worked with them and you don't work with them the same as just typical counseling. It's not the same because they don't see themselves.
So, we need more people who specialize in that.
Laura Dugger: (37:16 - 38:12)
I agree with you there. And it's just helpful to have that reminder of hope. Even this morning in my quiet time, I was reading in the Gospels and it was Jesus saying and everything he says is true.
That with man, it seems impossible, or it is impossible. But with God, we know that all things are possible. So, appreciate the way you answered that.
And then also a follow up would be we heard that awful story of what happened with the physical safety when you're looking at physical abuse. But then, Stacey, would you recommend wives have the same boundaries? Are they taking time away to physically protect themselves if there's any type of abuse?
If there is financial abuse, let's say, are they given the same recommendations as somebody who is in an emotionally abusive relationship?
Stacey Womack: (38:13 - 40:49)
Well, the emotional abuse is always there. You don't have any other forms of abuse without emotional abuse. So, our women, we talk about boundary setting and different boundaries they can begin trying.
But oftentimes the only boundary that actually works to be able to say for us to be able to make it, you need to go get help. And while you're getting help, we need to be separated so they're not focusing on one another. So not all of our women separate.
Some of the women try to work through it while he's still in the home. My experience is that it slows the process down, extremely slows the process down because they're still focusing on one another. And he's coming home and he's sharing with us how great the program is.
But then he's going home and he's angry and he's taking it out on her. So, it creates some unsafety for her. And I just want to say this because I think a lot of people don't understand that there's physical safety and then there's emotional safety.
And we downplay the emotional safety. But emotional safety is as important as physical safety. So, I have some pastors who think that if we share things like this, that we're going to be making victims.
That's not true. I don't relate to the books that are out there. You know, oh, yeah, I've experienced that.
It's not going to make victims. You either relate to it or you don't. But this emotional safety might mean needing to separate from that person.
Not because you fear their physical abuse when you haven't been physical. But a lot of our women say he's never been physical, but I'm fearful of him. And so in order for her to get some healing and some help while she waits to see whether or not he gets help and she's really hoping he will.
She needs that space. And so, yes, I think that in a lot of scenarios, separation is a key. And then we have some couples where the where the husband does is not willing to do the work he needs to do, but he's not controlling the finances.
So, they remain married but separated for the rest of their lives. Not very many couples can do that because most abusers are going to control finances. So, but that's why I was saying it's not our place to tell a woman to leave or to stay.
That's not our job. It's our job to walk alongside them when they seek God for what they should be doing and what boundaries they should be setting. And they can try a lot of different things before it gets to that point.
And it just there's no easy answer for this.
Laura Dugger: (40:50 - 41:05)
It's very complex. Yes, it's very complex. But even when you say there's a lot of things they could try.
Could you give a few examples or is there a place on your website where they can go to get some ideas and some help for those earlier stages?
Stacey Womack: (41:06 - 43:43)
Well, we talk about this in our journey class again, which is free. You can join at any time in our class on boundaries. And so, it depends on the severity of abuse that's going on.
But most women, when there has been physical abuse, will start off with things like and we talk about a boundary has to have a consequence. Otherwise, it's not really you can't. It doesn't work.
But these men are boundary breakers. So, a boundary would be like saying, if you continue to yell at me and call me names, I'm going to leave and go to my friend's house. So, there's the boundary and there's a consequence for breaking.
But then we also realize when we're talking to them that he may decide at some point he's not going to let you leave. So now he's blocking the door. So, then it might be, you know, if you're going to treat me this way, I'm no longer going to cook meals or do your wash.
And it usually works its way down to I'm no longer going to have sex with you. I'm not going to sleep in the same room with you. And once you get to that point, the only other thing you can do is do a physical separation with the heart to actually reunite.
That's what these women want. And some of our couples have been separated for three years. But the husband is like, let her head home.
And he's doing his work and they're interacting again. But he doesn't move back home for three years because he's committed to giving her whatever space and time she needs to heal. Because he recognizes that he's the one that's caused unsafety.
And so, what is three years if you can have a healthy relationship for the rest of your life? And so that's what we were looking for our men to do. It's like even if you're disappointed, if she's saying, I'm not ready for you to move back.
And you can say, I feel disappointed, but you know what? I get it. And whatever you need, I'm willing to do that.
That's accountability. That's humility. And really, they need to have other men who are mentoring them to hold them accountable.
And again, not a lot of people are taught this. And so having the right mentor even for this is really important. Even a right counselor for them to work with their childhood issues.
But those are some ideas for some boundaries. Boundaries always have to have consequences. But even if a woman gets a protection order or restraining order, most of those are violated.
So, we tell the women be prepared to call the police when he violates it by texting you or by sending you a card with money in it or putting flowers on your car. Or coming to the church service that you put in the restraining order that he wasn't supposed to come to. So, you need to be ready to hold him accountable because the abuser doesn't believe you're going to actually follow through.
Laura Dugger: (43:43 - 44:32)
Do you love The Savvy Sauce? Do you gain anything when you listen? Did you know that the two ways we earn money to keep this podcast live is through generous contributions from listeners and from our paying sponsors?
That means we can promote your business and you're still supporting The Savvy Sauce. It's a win-win. Please email us today at info@thesavvysauce.com to inquire about pricing for sponsoring each episode. Thank you for your consideration.
Well, and what if somebody is listening right now and they're automatically assuming, well, this isn't happening to anyone I know and it's certainly not happening in our church. What would you like to directly say to them?
Stacey Womack: (44:33 - 45:40)
I'd like to let them know that statistically one in three women experience domestic violence, stalking, or rape by an intimate partner. And the statistics in the church are no less than they are outside of the church. So, every church has families in their church who look like the perfect couple.
When I started leading a group in my own church, I was so shocked. I kept telling myself, stop being shocked when I have another woman privately come up to me and tell me that they were in an abusive relationship because they just, they were involved, and they were just leading Sunday school. And they were, just look like this beautiful family and you would never have known.
There was no way to know that this was actually going on. So, you know, the reality is that it's happening. We're just not aware of it.
It wasn't on my radar before God called me into this work. I didn't think it was affecting my life. I didn't think of much thought.
But the reality is I feel like it's worse now than ever and not necessarily more physical abuse, but just abuse in general, the misuse of things to gain control.
Laura Dugger: (45:42 - 46:18)
Well, and I appreciate the way you helped give a paradigm shift. You offered this on page 36 in your book and you quote saying, “At ARMS, we do not believe God considers domestic violence and abuse an adult issue. Instead, we believe he sees it as child abuse. We are his children.”
So, Stacey, with that in mind, how does this clarify how we can respond appropriately, and in a Christlike manner, when someone does report abuse?
Stacey Womack: (46:20 - 47:51)
Well, I think a lot of times when women actually have the courage to tell you what's going on, it's a very courageous thing to do. She's risking a lot by telling you.
So, we really need to listen carefully and believe her. And I'm thinking about how, you know, that I'm trying to think now. How did you word your question so I can answer it correctly?
If you think about that example you gave, if your child was being beaten, harassed and abused in school and came home crying, you wouldn't just sit in your chair and say, go back and pray harder and win them over by your quiet and gentle spirit. We would go down and we would ask the school, what are you doing about this? Who's doing this and what are you doing about it?
And if they didn't do anything, we wouldn't think twice to remove our child from that environment. But in these situations where you're working with two adults, she may not be ready to leave. She's just sharing with you that this is going on.
She actually is hoping you'll go talk to him so that you'll fix him. But that is not a safe thing for you to do. And she may not realize that.
I tell pastors that all the time. You don't, but you're not going to go to him to check out her story or go talk to him like she's asked you to. Instead, you're going to go, what can we do for you right now?
Let's get you some help. And there'll be a time where we can address things with him. But right now is not that safe time.
So, let's get you connected with an organization that can help you give you the resources that you need to begin your journey of healing and discovering what God wants you to do.
Laura Dugger: (47:52 - 48:07)
That's good. And also, this is a tricky question, but what are your views for having biblical reasons for divorce, specifically as it relates to those types of abuse that you shared with us?
Stacey Womack: (48:08 - 50:27)
Sure. You know, I think God understood that divorce would happen. That's why it got written into the law.
And it says, “Because it was the hardness of hearts.” So, it wasn't God's design. It wasn't the way God wanted it to be, but that there was made allowances for this.
And when people and women are often quoted, God hates divorce. They're not really giving the whole scripture and Malachi in the amplified version. It says, “God hates divorce and marital separation and him who covers his wife, his garment with violence. Therefore, keep a watch on your spirit, that it may be controlled by my spirit, that you deal not treacherously and faithfully with your marriage mate.”
So, we actually got some really good articles that go in depth on the original Hebrew, that Malachi verse was written in there. But, you know, I do believe that someone is breaking the marriage covenant to love, cherish, lay his life down for when they bring abuse to the relationship.
Again, God would wish and hope that we would humble our hearts, not be stiff necked and submit to Him and what he's trying to teach us and grow us in. But He does not force us. And so that leaves women in these situations very little choices if their husband is unwilling to get the help that he needs.
So, I am all for divorce. And I know that that marriage is hard. And my husband and I have been married for 44 years and we've gone through our struggles.
And there are times that I thought this isn't going to work. But you know what? We hung in there because we knew that for us, because it wasn't an abusive situation, that we need to stay in there and work on it.
And we did. And we're so glad we did. So, believe me, I'm not promoting divorce.
I just know that there has to be a place and known for it because of sin in the world. And again, it's heartbreaking and it destroys not just individuals, families, but our society is being destroyed by the breakdown of the family. And abuse is one of the most insidious things.
It starts in the home and it's cyclical. So, it's passed on from one generation to the next.
Laura Dugger: (50:29 - 50:38)
Well, so, Stacey, how can we become more aware of abuse that is happening all around us? And what can we do that's genuinely helpful?
Stacey Womack: (50:40 - 52:13)
Well, I think getting the education, you know, in my book that on the front lines of abuse strategies for the faith community, just a little book. But has a ton of information in it is a good place to start. And I have some do's and don'ts in there.
But, you know, I think that when you might recognize someone's being in an abusive relationship by the way her husband or whatever is speaking to her. But she doesn't see it because most victims would never call themselves a victim of abuse because they don't relate to that at all. That's not how they would define it.
So, I think sometimes just privately sharing with them. No, that behavior was really abusive. And she may not like that.
She might even get upset. But I think just being honest with the fact that this is going on. And I encourage pastors to preach about abuse and really abuse oppression.
And the Bible has a whole lot to say about oppression. There's already sermons out there that they can pull from. I suggest pastors preach on it twice a year.
So, October's domestic violence awareness month. And then maybe run Mother's Day again, not on Mother's Day, but around Mother's Day. Talk about it again, not as a caveat to relationships where it's just mentioned in a sermon, but an actual entire sermon on this issue.
And I can promise you that the church gets the education they need. They don't have to be experts, but they need to know what resources are out there for them and they make it safe. Both men and women will come forward and ask for help.
So, we need just to be a listening ear and care and ask how we can help.
Laura Dugger: (52:14 - 52:29)
I think that's a good practical encouragement that you've shared. And I want to add all of these links in our show notes. So, is there anywhere else that we can go to after this conversation to continue learning from you?
Sure.
Stacey Womack: (52:30 - 53:32)
We have our website that has a ton of information on it, abuserecovery.org. So, there's just so much on there. We have blogs and we have all kinds of information that the faith community can download for free.
Whether you're just in the community or you're a church leader, there's all kinds of things you can download. We have a pastor's packet. There's just we'll give you other books to read that you can do more education around this again.
I know as my father being a pastor, that pastors are busy enough. We're not asking pastors to do more than what they're doing. We're just asking them to be educated and know where they can send their people that's safe, where they're going to get sound and supportive help.
And to just be open to looking at things from a little bit different perspective. But our website just has so much on it that they can get for free. And again, our women's intervention groups, our recovery groups are free.
Laura Dugger: (53:33 - 53:49)
Thank you for sharing that. And you may already be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so, Stacey is my final question for you today.
What is your savvy sauce?
Stacey Womack: (53:50 - 54:39)
What is my savvy sauce? You know, when I think about how God called me into this ministry in the end, no matter what we do, I think it's about obedience to God. And so, this was not on my radar.
I would never have chosen it. And so, for me, it's about being obedient to what God has called me to do, even when it's hard and even when it's unpopular. And walking in that so that when I stand before God, I can say I did what you asked me to, to the best of my ability, even with all my flaws.
So that's really, I think, my heart is to be that way. Be a leader like Moses, who God says he was the most humble man who ever lived. I'd love to be like that with the heart of David and the boldness of Paul and on and on and on.
Laura Dugger: (54:39 - 59:13)
So, yeah, I love that. Well, I told you before we pressed record that I have experienced so much fruit of the spirit from you already with your gentleness. And this is not the first time we tried recording.
We prayed together that God would do immeasurably more than all we could ever ask or imagine through this conversation, because we had so many technical difficulties and even had to reschedule the date for this. But Stacey, I'm so grateful you persevered because you are well-spoken and you tackle this extremely difficult topic with wisdom and grace. And so, I'm very grateful I got to learn from you today.
And I believe God's going to continue working through you, even for the saving of many lives. So, thank you for your work and thank you for being my guest. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?
It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?
Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?
We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.
We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.
Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.
I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.
I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday May 12, 2025
Monday May 12, 2025
Special Patreon Re-Release: Wholehearted Quiet Time with Naomi Vacaro
Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
"So they went away by themselves in a boat to a solitary place. But many who saw them leaving recognized them and ran on foot from all the towns and got there ahead of them. When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them, because they were like sheep without a shepherd. So he began teaching them many things." Mark 6:32-34 (NIV)
**Transcription Below**
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
- How did your life with secret sin impact your connection with Jesus and what were some of those faulty beliefs you internalized that Christ later redeemed?
- How would you describe quiet time and its purpose?
- How does quiet time ripple out to effect everyone around us?
Naomi Vacaro is first and foremost a wholehearted follower of Jesus. She grew up as a daughter to missionaries in Outer Mongolia and then moved to Florida at the age of 18 to pursue a college degree. After graduating with a degree in graphic design, she worked as a wedding photographer and soon after felt led to create a journal called the Quiet Time Companion, along with an online ministry that would help Christians develop a daily habit of seeking Jesus. She now spends her time running the Wholehearted community and being a stay-at-home mom. She and her husband live in Florida with their son. Visit her online at wholeheartedquiettime.com or on Instagram.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and The Savvy Sauce Charities (and donate online here)
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce:
150 Brain Science and Spiritual Abundance with Ken Baugh
259 God Speaks to His Kids . . . Here's How with Chris Allen
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:51)
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
Are you interested in a free college education for you or someone you know? Stay tuned for details coming later in this episode from today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. You can also visit their website today at chickfila.com/East Peoria.
If you've been with us long, you know this podcast is only one piece of our nonprofit, which is the Savvy Sauce Charities. Don't miss out on our other resources.
We have questions and content to inspire you to have your own practical chats for intentional living. And I also hope you don't miss out on the opportunity to financially support us through your tax-deductible donations. All this information can be found on our recently updated website, thesavvysauce.com.
My guest for today is Naomi Vaccaro, and she has wisdom beyond her years that she articulates beautifully in her faith journey. She's humbly going to share some highs and lows, and she's able to pull out ways that the Lord has called her to live in the light. And she has practical suggestions for ways we can do the same.
Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Naomi.
Naomi Vaccaro: (1:53 - 2:01)
Hi, Laura. Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited to be here and just can't wait to dive into all this amazing conversation.
Laura Dugger: (2:02 - 2:10)
Well, likewise, I feel the same. And will you start us off by just giving us a glimpse of your journey to becoming a Christ follower?
Naomi Vaccaro: (2:11 - 4:04)
Yeah, absolutely. So, my story is probably very similar to many other believers who grew up in Christian homes. I know I'm not the only one who probably has a similar testimony.
But I was showed the gospel a thousand times in a hundred different ways over the course of many, many years. So, my coming to faith was definitely a slow blossoming over a long period of time. My first really memorable encounter with the Lord was when I was about seven years old.
I remember I was walking in the backyard of our home in Mongolia, which is where I grew up as a missionary kid. And during that evening, there was just this particularly beautiful sunset. And I just remember looking at the clouds in the sky and just seeing that sun dip below the horizon.
And I just knew my seven-year-old heart knew that God was real and that he was present and he saw me and he just loved me. And that was the first time I remember actually acknowledging him personally and really just wanting to be in a relationship with him. So, I would say that was when my journey of faith really started.
That's when it took root in my own heart, this longing for eternity. And then my understanding of the gospel was definitely limited to what a seven year old could grasp at the time. So, my relationship with Christ and the way I understood his grace, it deepened and it strengthened over time.
But I do believe that it was in that moment that I became committed to start the journey. And then it was just slow growth from there.
Laura Dugger: (4:05 - 4:48)
I love it. Everybody's story is so personal to them, and it never gets old hearing how Christ has wooed people to himself. But in your new book, you write on page 15, I'm going to quote you saying, “My mom and dad took their role as parents even more seriously than their calling as missionaries.”
If there was one thing they persistently taught us as kids, it was that spending time with Jesus was a necessary part of everyday life. And so Naomi, as a mom myself with a similar conviction to create a spiritually vibrant home atmosphere, I would love to learn, how did your parents actually do that?
Naomi Vaccaro: (4:49 - 8:11)
Yeah, that's a great question. I'm a mom myself now, and ever since becoming a mom, this is the question I just revisited over and over. And I'm just so grateful to have had the example that my parents gave to me.
And that's really what they did. So, my parents, first and foremost, they taught by example. Every morning without fail, my mom and dad would be the first ones up and they would each spend time with the Lord in their own routine, their own unique rhythm.
And so, it's funny, because for many years, I really thought that every other adult Christian had Bible time in the morning, just like my parents did. I thought it was just the thing adults did. And it wasn't until later in life that I realized how rare and special it was to have parents who sought the Lord so diligently and consistently.
They weren't just missionaries on the outside, you know, pastor on the outside. They had a private devotion to the Lord that was so vibrant and so real. And there was just no hypocrisy there.
Also, on the more practical side of things, I just also had the good fortune of being homeschooled, which allowed my parents a lot of flexibility and creativity with our education. So, one thing that my mom would do is every morning at around eight o'clock after we had all had breakfast, we would gather in the living room together. We would break open hymnals and sing some songs.
We would learn from a passage in scripture, and my mom would lead that time. Sometimes my dad would. And then we would pray together.
And then my mom would read a book out loud to all of us for about 30 minutes or so. And so that daily time, I just remember that being one of the most special parts of my childhood. And it was so enjoyable.
And I really think that it took the concept of a quiet time or seeking the Lord as one of the first things you did every day. It just made that rhythm really normal in my mind. So even now, it seems weird not to start my day with some kind of routine that welcomes the Lord into my day.
And I really attribute that to my mom and my dad and the way they educated us. So, my parents, they taught by example, and they integrated these beautiful rhythms into our lives at a very young age. So, if you are a parent and you really want that to become a reality in your home, just start first by creating this rhythm in your personal life.
Kids practice what we do, not just what we teach. They can sense hypocrisy very, very easily. And so, you first just need to make sure that you are devoting yourself to the Lord privately.
And they will see that and it will impact them. And then some of the ways you can bring your kids into your quiet time rhythm with you is you could have them sit next to you and have them read their own children's Bible as you read your Bible. And set aside a few minutes to pray with them every morning.
There are so many ways that we can start cultivating this culture in our home. But I really do believe that it all starts with our own sincere private devotion.
Laura Dugger: (8:12 - 9:01)
That's really helpful to hear. And I like that progression of it begins with us and our commitment to our relationship with the Lord and growing there. But that's also helpful to see it play out that they kind of fed you through the hymns and through the Bible reading, but then also transferred that responsibility on to you to pursue that as well as you got older.
Something that really stood out when I read your book was your humility and vulnerability. So, I'm wondering if you can share a little bit more of your journey now. And specifically, how did your life with secret sin impact your connection with Jesus?
And what were some of those faulty beliefs that you internalized and Christ later redeemed?
Naomi Vaccaro: (9:03 - 14:43)
Yeah. So, first of all, I just want to say, you know, this is where life happens. This is where things get real when we uncover our own failure, our own shame, when we bring it into the light.
This is just this is where God works. He works with humility. And that's why we should not be afraid to deal with these topics.
And so, I'm so excited to share my own story right now because I hope it will encourage someone else who might be listening. And it's something that I think we do need to talk about more in the Christian community. So basically, when I was eight years old, I was so young.
When I was eight years old, I was first exposed to pornography and erotica. And after that encounter, a secret sin of sexual fantasizing and seeking out more erotic content developed in my life. And this sin, the secret sin, did major damage to my walk with Jesus for a long time.
First of all, that's really what sin does, right? It separates us from God when we walk in a way that goes against his design, his good, good design for us. It destroys, it separates, it hurts.
And that's what it did for me for a long time. However, because of the grace of Christ, sin can only separate us from God if we let it. And so, I, at the time, I really did let my failure separate me from the grace of Jesus because I didn't really understand that the gospel applied to me as an already born-again Christian who struggled with sexual temptation.
I thought that you became a Christian because of the gospel, Jesus on the cross, the resurrection, the Holy Spirit, etc., etc. But deep down, I also really thought that once I was through the door of the gospel, that the Christian walk became up to me. So, every time I stumbled and fell into any kind of sin, but especially lust, because that was what I was so, so ashamed of, I would feel absolutely devastated.
And this was more than just a righteous conviction because it's good to feel devastated over our sin. This was a fear that I had somehow lost God's favor, lost his love, and particularly lost my salvation. I questioned my identity in Christ every time I stumbled in this way.
So, every time I would seek out this content and just give in to this inner sexual fantasizing, I would avoid having a quiet time for a few days because I really felt like I somehow had to do a penance, that I had to prove to God just how sorry I was. And so, this secret sin and the guilt that it gave me, it really did drive me away from Jesus, which I'm sure it just broke his heart because that is the last thing you want to do when you fall into sin is run away from God. And what's so sad is that I kept this in a secret for years.
I was eight when it started, and I was 13 when I finally got up the nerve to confess to my mother. I had prayed many times and confessed this sin to the Lord many times, but I wasn't seeing progress. I was still struggling, and I knew, I knew for years he was telling me, Naomi, you need to confess this to someone else.
You need to confess this to your mom. And I was so afraid of telling her that I was sinning in this way. I felt so dirty.
I felt so trapped and so terrified of losing her good opinion and the good opinion of anyone who would find out because I often equated the good opinion of others to love, especially as someone who's just a natural born people pleaser. But that morning when I finally confessed as a 13-year-old, the love and the grace that my mother showed me, it was the greatest reflection of the gospel I had ever experienced in my life up to that point. My sin didn't drive her away from me.
It actually drew her in closer, and that was the last thing that I expected. She embraced me. She came alongside me, and she made it clear that I was not the first or the last Christian to struggle with the sin of lust.
And she made me understand that I was not alone. And so, her reaction, it really did show me this fundamental truth, that our sin is what makes us absolutely irresistible to the compassionate heart of Christ. He hates sin because our sin is killing us.
But instead of casting us aside and pushing us away, he draws near in order to heal us. Jesus rushes to the side of a repentant sinner every single time. And that is what I learned through that journey of secret sin, wrestling inwardly, and then finally confessing in obedience to the Lord, confessing that sin to my mom.
Laura Dugger: (14:44 - 15:05)
Wow. Thank you for bravely sharing that journey. That is such an encouragement.
And if someone is relating to your story, or maybe they're in the midst of their own experience of harboring some other form of secret sin right now, and it's creating distance between them and God, what encouragement would you like to offer them?
Naomi Vaccaro: (15:07 - 17:00)
Yeah, so just run to Jesus. It all starts there. Just don't wait another moment.
Pause this episode if you need to. Hit your knees. Cry out to God.
Sin, it kills. It destroys. It separates us.
And the way we overcome sin is not by muscling our way through in our own strength. I've tried that. It doesn't work.
We have to combat sin by taking up the sword of surrender. We surrender ourselves to God, and then it becomes his strength that carries us through, that sets us free. So don't wait to confess.
Confess every single failure that's weighing on your soul. It doesn't define you in Christ. You are set free from his work.
So don't carry that garbage around anymore. Just don't do it. Jesus is so ready to embrace you, and it really is a lie that your sin makes you too dirty to approach him.
Jesus took care of that once and for all on the cross. So just like you embraced the gospel when you first became a Christian, now just cling to the gospel as you battle sin as a Christian. And then you can just ask yourself, you know, is there someone else that the Lord wants to bring alongside you in this struggle?
There's a reason why we are a body. There's a reason why we don't do the Christian walk alone, and that's because sin can't survive in the light, which is Christian accountability and confession. So, you will just be amazed at what God can do when you confess your sin to him and you make it known to other believers.
Just walk in that humility and trust that God opposes the proud, but he gives grace to the humble.
Laura Dugger: (17:01 - 19:50)
And now a brief message from our sponsor. Did you know you can go to college tuition free just by being a team member at Chick-fil-A East Peoria? Yes, you heard that right.
Free college education. All Chick-fil-A East Peoria team members in good standing are immediately eligible for a free college education through Point University. Point University is a fully accredited private Christian college located in West Point, Georgia.
This online self-paced program includes 13 associates degrees, 17 bachelor’s degrees and two master’s programs, including an MBA. College courses are fully transferable both in and out of this program. This could even be a great option to complete your general education courses and then transfer to the college of your choice and save money in the process.
So, if you're looking for an affordable college option while simultaneously gaining valuable work experience and earning an income, Chick-fil-A East Peoria is the place for you. You don't have to go into debt to get a great education. To apply today, please go to Chick-fil-A.com/East Peoria and click on the career tab. You can also call the restaurant at 309-694-1044 to find out more. And if you aren't located near Chick-fil-A East Peoria, make sure you check with your local Chick-fil-A restaurant to see if they also participate in the Elevate program with Point University. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Well, it's amazing to think about intimacy because the very first building block of intimacy is honesty. And so, I think you're just laying out such a biblical view of how to walk in freedom and intimacy with God and others by confessing and saying out loud what we're struggling with. And I know that the enemy will try whispering to us and lying and twisting things saying that this will lead to something worse or lead to more bondage.
And yet your story reveals the truth that it actually sets us free. As we continue to walk through your journey, you next experienced euphoria from having a clear conscience. And you channeled your newfound energy into a spiritual discipline that you said you most wanted to improve, which was your quiet time.
So how would you describe quiet time and its purpose?
Naomi Vaccaro: (19:51 - 21:24)
Yeah, so quiet time refers to the activities of Bible reading and prayer. And its purpose really is wonderfully simple and yet deeply profound. Simply put, having a quiet time is relating to God.
In any relationship, there needs to be back and forth communication, right? Listening and talking, receiving and sharing. So, when you become a follower of Christ, you are entering into a relationship with the Almighty God.
That is what Christianity is all about. So, reading the Bible is essentially listening to God share His heart with you. That's how you are getting to know the other being, the other person on the other side of this relationship.
And prayer is how you share your heart with God. God wants you to share about yourself. He wants to know you.
And just because He's God and He already knows everything doesn't mean He doesn't enjoy that intimacy with us. He wants to relate to us just like we would relate to anybody else. So of course, there are many other good reasons to read the Bible and pray.
But this really is the foundation of what having a quiet time is all about. It's how we cultivate and nurture our relationship with God Himself.
Laura Dugger: (21:25 - 21:31)
And what would you say to someone who feels like their quiet time has become stale or boring?
Naomi Vaccaro: (21:32 - 23:20)
So first, don't be alarmed. I get so alarmed when my quiet time becomes boring and I start second-guessing everything. But over time I've learned that this happens to everyone, and it doesn't mean you're no longer a Christian.
So just don't worry. Search your heart definitely and try to find the reason behind this season. There could be something more serious going on.
For instance, when I was walking through sin for many years, that was a huge issue that kept me from experiencing a lot of genuine delight with the Lord. So, there could be something like that that is causing trouble. Or it could just be that you are in a season that is draining your joy.
You could be walking through suffering, a significant suffering. And that should not be surprising to us that our circumstances and our suffering affect how we relate to God and the feelings we experience there. So, no matter what the reason is, the answer is the same.
Keep coming back to Christ. Even when it feels boring, I promise you the feelings will follow in time. And there are also some practical things that you can do to shake things up and make your quiet time a little more interesting if it's really just that simple.
For instance, you can bring worship music into your routine. I love worship music and that always sparks a lot of joy and just praise. You can also go on a prayer walk around your neighborhood.
You can start a new Bible study or a book. Just don't take your own lack of feeling too seriously. And just trust me that as you remain faithful in the discipline, the delight will follow in time.
Laura Dugger: (23:21 - 23:58)
And I think that even ties into what you were saying earlier about confessing or just bringing things into the light. It's such a joy to get to do this in community. So maybe even sharing with your spouse, if that applies to you, or a friend or a loved one, if this is a struggle.
And I think they can also help shed light on what's going on. But you mentioned the word season. And so, let's take this from a proactive stance then.
If someone has a big life change coming up, like a move or a wedding or a new child, how can they prepare to adapt their quiet time to a new season?
Naomi Vaccaro: (23:59 - 26:10)
Oh man, the seasons that you mentioned, each one of those have always affected my quiet time. Especially becoming a mom. Just shout out to all the moms out there.
So, I would just say, spend a good amount of time. If you see the season that is ahead of you, just spend a good amount of time praying over that season before it even arrives. Just trust that the Lord, He will give you the grace you need to transition into your new role.
And prepare your heart before the Lord to receive this sanctification, because that's what transition does. It reveals weakness in us. It reveals where we've maybe placed a lot of our hope and confidence in places other than Christ.
And so, walk into that sanctification confidently that the Lord is with you. And then just do your best when that season comes. Do your best to maintain your quiet time routine.
But don't worry too much if things get lost for a little while. It really does take time to regain our footing after a big transition. The main thing is to just not give up the habit altogether.
Just keep fighting for pieces of it as much as you can. And then overtime it will get easier. For me, it took me about six months to relearn my quiet time routine after I got married.
And after I had a baby, it took me a solid year before I became consistent again. It was really, really hard. And even now as a working mom, I still really struggle to find consistency.
So don't freak out. Don't linger on any kind of sense of failure. Just return to the Lord in whatever moments He provides.
And just know that His mercies are new every single morning. And just because you're struggling to have a quiet time in a new season of life doesn't mean that Jesus is not with you, that He's not walking with you and making you into more of His likeness. He is.
He still delights in you. He loves you. He has not left you.
He is still right there.
Laura Dugger: (26:11 - 26:24)
I think that's such a real picture because it is a fight and it's worth the fight. And Naomi, how have you seen quiet time ripple out to affect everyone around us?
Naomi Vaccaro: (26:25 - 28:38)
Oh man, I feel like I could talk about this one question for a long time because it really does affect everyone. It affects everything. Because when you think of what having a quiet time is, it is connecting us with the God of the universe.
And not only that, it is welcoming Him into our lives and making us more like Christ. So, when we do that regularly, consistently, there literally isn't anyone in our proximity who will not be positively affected by that. The more we are absorbing Scripture and engaging with the Lord in prayer about what's going on in our lives, the people in our lives, the things that weigh us down or lift us up, the more we do this and reflect Christ to the world around us, the more people will be impacted.
So, our marriages, we'll just start there. They will become so much sweeter as we lean on the love of Christ. Trust me, your spouse cannot be your ultimate fulfillment.
And when we look to our spouse to fulfill every single one of our needs, marriage becomes really hard. But the more we lean on our true source of joy and satisfaction, marriage actually becomes really, really wonderful. So, for the sake of your marriage, have a quiet time.
And the same is true for our kids. They are not meant to be the center of our universe. And they will feel so much more happy and secure as we find our joy in the Lord.
They cannot bear the weight of our worship. And so if you want kids who are just full of joy, then spend time with the Lord and trust him to take care of them. And then obviously just our neighbors, our coworkers, our friends, our relatives, everyone we encounter will feel the ripple effect of our own private devotion to God.
I truly do believe that one person who is faithful to seek the Lord on a regular basis will have an impact that resounds throughout eternity itself. I really, really do.
Laura Dugger: (28:39 - 28:49)
And do you think it's ever possible to selfishly prioritize our allegiance to these spiritual disciplines above other priorities?
Naomi Vaccaro: (28:50 - 31:30)
Yes. Absolutely. And this is something I do talk about in my book, and I share some content there that really impacted me when I was learning about flexibility in our spiritual disciplines.
So, I think it's really important to realize that having a daily quiet time is not a command in Scripture. It's not a sin issue if you don't have a quiet time. It's a relationship issue.
So, the actual function of Bible reading and prayer is not some kind of non-negotiable ritual that we perform. Ultimately, the Christian walk is about loving the Lord, our God, with all we have and loving our neighbor as ourselves. God will never ask us to compromise on either one of those.
He will never ask us to sacrifice one for the other. So loving God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength will also always look like loving our neighbor as ourselves. Sometimes it looks like changing a diaper instead of opening up that Bible study we're just dying to get into.
And sometimes it looks like running out the door to help someone in an emergency rather than having our regularly scheduled prayer time. Our spiritual disciplines need to be flexible enough to be interrupted. Otherwise, we are making the routine itself too important.
And I really believe the best example of this is Christ himself. There are multiple instances in Scripture where Jesus allows his prayer time with the Father or even his journey down the road to be interrupted by the needs of others. Jesus was always ready to stop and serve, even if that meant shifting his other plans.
Now we all have our own capacity, so that doesn't mean you always have to be rushing to this person and that person. It just means that you need to be willing to let go of your routines in place of the leading of the Holy Spirit. Wherever he wants us to go to love God and love others, that's what we need to remember.
And then just remember that quiet time is not the end goal in itself. That is not the ultimate end of the Christian life. Love for God and love for others really does go beyond daily Bible reading and prayer.
Sometimes our quiet time will need to be changed or postponed in order for us to love others the way God wants us to.
Laura Dugger: (31:31 - 32:42)
I love scenarios that are both and, and you're laying that out for us, that quiet time both is important and its worthy of being prioritized and flexibility is important and Christ-like as well.
Did you know you could receive a free email with monthly encouragement, practical tips, and plenty of questions to ask to take your conversation a level deeper, whether that's in parenting or on date nights? Make sure you access all of this at thesavvysauce.com by clicking the button that says join our email list so that you can follow the prompts and begin receiving these emails at the beginning of each month. Enjoy! Another part of your book just made me smile when you were talking about whether you believe prayer and Scripture reading are non-negotiables, but you also invite readers to journal for a variety of reasons. And I love journaling as well.
But from your standpoint, will you elaborate on some convincing reasons to give journaling a try?
Naomi Vaccaro: (32:44 - 35:36)
Absolutely. So, I am also an avid journaler. I have been journaling since I was about eight years old.
And over time, I really have just seen so many amazing benefits to journaling. Like you said, it's not a non-negotiable element to a quiet time. It's not absolutely necessary to journal.
Whereas I would say Bible reading and prayer are necessary because they are our modes of communication to the Lord. So, journaling really is more of a bonus element. But keeping a diary will always be something I recommend for several reasons.
So here are my main reasons why I recommend journaling. So, first of all, journaling really does help us process our emotions. We've got a lot of feelings rolling around inside of us.
And sometimes it is so good to just wrestle those feelings onto a page so that we can look them over, analyze them, process them, submit them to the Lord, and maybe understand why we are feeling a certain way and then what next steps we should take to address those emotions. So that's my first reason. Journaling really helps us process our emotions.
Also, I think most people understand that this is a huge benefit of journaling. But journaling really is a wonderful way to preserve our memories. There are so many stories I would never have remembered if I didn't write them down years ago.
And I just absolutely love, it gives me so much joy to go back through my old journals and read about events and what I thought about certain events that happened years ago. And at the time, those things seemed so big and important. But now they are just the sweetest memories that I get to pass down to my children, hopefully, and hopefully their children.
So yes, journaling also helps us preserve our memories. And then finally, I think the most compelling reason to journal is the way it helps us keep a record of God's faithfulness in our lives. So how many times do you and I pray over something super specific, something we are super worried about, and then that problem is solved.
The Lord provides, and the need is met. And then the next day, we kind of forgot all about it. We just move right along to the next worry.
I know that I do this all the time, and journaling has really helped me in this area. I get so caught up with now that I forget about all the dozens and hundreds of times that God has been faithful to provide and protect and comfort me in the past. So journaling is just such a good, practical way to deepen our faith as we record and remember how good God has been to us over time.
Laura Dugger: (35:36 - 35:56)
And I even think the Bible encourages this in different ways when it's talking about writing this down or passing this on to your children. Or one of my favorites in the last part of Proverbs 3.21 says, preserve sound judgment and discernment. Do not let them out of your sight.
And so, I just echo all that you're saying.
Naomi Vaccaro: (35:57 - 35:58)
Yes.
Laura Dugger: (35:58 - 36:08)
When we consider the Holy Spirit's impactful role in our lives, how can we discern when we're being spirit-led versus flesh-led?
Naomi Vaccaro: (36:09 - 38:20)
You know, what's so amazing about being a Christian is that we have been given the gift of the Helper, with a capital H, you know, the Holy Spirit who now dwells within those who belong to Christ. It's so amazing. So, if you look at yourself in the mirror right now, you can just know the Holy Spirit is looking right back at you.
It's pretty amazing. We get to walk every day hand-in-hand with the Holy Spirit. And the more we listen to Him and let Him guide us in our lives, the easier it will be to hear Him again.
And that's what we want. We want to be spirit-led people. So how do we do that?
The age-old question. So, one thing that we can always be certain of is that the Holy Spirit will never contradict the revealed will of God in Scripture. The Holy Spirit is a part of the Trinity.
They are all so connected in their purpose. They are one. And yes, the Spirit, He can work in our emotions, and He often does.
But the problem is, our feelings can be so tricky. And we always want to measure them against the Holy Word of God because that is where our source of truth is found. So, this really is the truest test for the leading of the Holy Spirit versus the leading of our flesh.
Our flesh will always be self-centered. And the Holy Spirit will always be Christ-centered. The Holy Spirit exists to magnify Christ, right?
So, as we look at Christ and adore Christ, then the Holy Spirit will grow stronger and stronger inside of us. So that's what I would encourage you to do. If you want to discern the difference between the Holy Spirit's leading and your flesh's leading, then really just start with studying God's Word.
Bring it into your home, your soul, your day-to-day life, and you will begin to discern the difference in no time.
Laura Dugger: (38:22 - 38:28)
And how can we spur one another on to love and good deeds, especially in community?
Naomi Vaccaro: (38:29 - 40:15)
So first, you need to be in community in order to spur one another on to love and good deeds, right? So, we really do need to start there because we're living in a time, especially in our country, I think around the world, where there is just a pandemic of loneliness and people are not living in community. So start by finding that community.
Find a local body of believers in Christ to do life with. And I don't just mean a Sunday morning service. Find people that you can see multiple times a week and start to get vulnerable and involved in each other's lives.
Start a prayer group together. Gather your kids and have a regular play date. Do game nights with the whole family.
Just think outside the box of Sunday morning. And after that, I just really believe that in order to love one another well, we need to bring it back to the whole topic of this conversation. We need to start with our own private relationship with God.
If this vertical relationship between God and us is out of whack, then our horizontal relationships with others will really just start to disintegrate. So, we need to begin with our own relationship with Christ and begin by praying for the people in your community as you spend time talking with Him. He will be the one to fill you with the love you need to then go and pour it out to the other members of your community.
And that is what spurs Christians on to love and good deeds. And it always has been.
Laura Dugger: (40:16 - 40:29)
Well, Naomi, I'm enjoying this conversation. And if anybody wants to continue the conversation, where would you direct us online to find you and begin implementing these rhythms that you've taught us today?
Naomi Vaccaro: (40:30 - 41:09)
Thank you, Laura. I've had such a great time talking with you, too. And I would just love to chat with anyone else who wants to come and start a conversation.
You can find me on Instagram at Naomi Vaccaro. And you can find my ministry, Wholehearted, where we focus on discipling Christians to have a daily quiet time. You can find that ministry on Instagram at WholeheartedQuietTime.
Also, our website is WholeheartedQuietTime.com. And that's where we have our blog and our online shop and a lot of free resources. So please come on by.
I would love to meet you.
Laura Dugger: (41:09 - 41:28)
Wonderful. We will link to that in the show notes for today's episode. And you may be aware we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight.
And so, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Naomi Vaccaro: (41:28 - 41:51)
Yeah, I love this. Savvy Sauce. There's a lot of things I could say, but when it comes down to it, my savvy sauce really is getting a good night's sleep.
I become a monster if I don't sleep enough. So, I need to get my rest. I cannot recommend it highly enough, people.
Get yourselves eight hours every night. Amen to that.
Laura Dugger: (41:51 - 42:17)
That is wonderful savvy sauce. And maybe that's part of the reason and more so your connection with the Lord. But I just experience you as such a peaceful and kind and gentle person.
And I can hear all of the passion about this coming from you. So, thank you for the work that you're faithfully doing with Wholehearted. And thank you for being my guest today.
Naomi Vaccaro: (42:18 - 42:34)
Thank you, Laura. I just feel so encouraged and so, so loved by God through this conversation. And I cannot wait to see what he is going to do in His people through your work, your podcast, and Lord willing, my book.
So may His will be done.
Laura Dugger: (42:35 - 46:36)
Thank you so much, Naomi.
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?
It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?
Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?
We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.
We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.
Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.
I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.
I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday May 05, 2025
Monday May 05, 2025
262. Why Are So Many People Homeschooling? With Monica Swanson
Proverbs 19:21 (NIV) Many are the plans in a person’s heart, but it is the Lord’s purpose that prevails.
**Transcription Below**
Monica Swanson and her husband, Dave (a hospital physician), are raising four sons on the North Shore of Oahu, Hawaii. They have graduated three sons, and homeschool the other one, and they spend much of their free time supporting their sons' competitive surfing and enjoying all that Hawaii has to offer. Monica's background is in sports medicine and fitness, and she shares inspiration for balanced living, as well as recipes, stories, and a ton of encouragement for families on her blog at MonicaSwanson.com.
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
- According to analysis from The Washington Post, homeschooling has become the fastest-growing form of education in America. Why do you believe there has been a shift in the perception and implementation of homeschooling?
- In chapter 1, you share "20 Good Reasons to Homeschool Your Kids." Will you share a couple favorites from your list?
- What are the three steps you recommend to begin?
Number One Most Popular Episode on The Savvy Sauce from 2023:
#1 from 2023: School Series: Benefits of Homeschooling with Jodi Mockabee
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website.
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:22)
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness.
Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org.
My guest for today is podcaster and author Monica Swanson. Her latest book is entitled Becoming Homeschoolers, and we're going to discuss that today. Also, anytime someone mentions what their best decision has been so far in parenting, I always listen in.
So, Monica is going to share that with us today, along with so much more. Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Monica.
Monica Swanson: (1:12 - 1:14)
Thanks so much. Great to be here.
Laura Dugger: (1:14 - 1:49)
Well, we're just going to dive right in because I'm hoping that you'll share a little bit about your family and your journey along the way. But even from the get-go of your book, you were thinking back to this compelling realization you had when you were reflecting on your sons and you told your husband, I'm pretty sure that the greatest factor in shaping our boys' lives outside of their relationship with Jesus has been that we homeschooled them. Homeschooling isn't just a nice little part of their growing up story.
It's the main story.
Monica Swanson: (1:50 - 3:25)
Will you elaborate on that? Totally. It's really funny how I guess sometimes the Lord just reveals things to you a little bit at a time.
I wrote a book in 2019, Boy Mom, then I wrote Raising Amazing, it came out just a year ago. It's my heart to encourage families and parents and I've been doing that for so long. Homeschooling comes up here and there and I've mentioned it.
People ask a lot of questions, but somehow I think in my heart's desire to serve the masses and to make sure I'm not excluding anyone. It just has been my heart's desire to say, no matter what, I just want to support families. As I wrapped up my book, Raising Amazing, and I was in that last chapter talking about how kids spend their time and really just encouraging families to be intentional about all the different things we do with our time because I have now three grown children.
I can look back and go, wow, those days that seemed so long, they really were short. Those years flew by. As I reflected on that, it's like it just hit me square between the eyes and I couldn't deny it.
I was like, Dave, I haven't told the whole story. I haven't meant to hide anything or keep anything back, but if I'm really honest, homeschooling is a huge part of our family. I need to actually talk about that more than I ever have.
That is where Becoming Homeschoolers, my newest book, was born. It's just been so fun to have the freedom to go, okay, now I get to tell you everything. That's the story.
Laura Dugger: (3:26 - 3:32)
I love it. You mentioned Dave, your husband. Can you also tell us your son's names, ages?
Monica Swanson: (3:33 - 4:38)
You betcha. Yes. I have two sons who now live in California.
One is a college graduate and got a job. He's adulting in the Santa Barbara area. His name is Josiah. He's 24. He's single. If you've got great daughters out there, they'll love it when I say these things.
Then I have a 22-year-old who, as we record, is about to graduate from Westmont College, also in Santa Barbara. That's Jonah. He's hoping to get a job in the area and stick around too.
Then my 20-year-old, Luke, lives here. This is home-base, but he is a professional surfer. He travels the world regularly for surfing and he's doing online college and just comes and goes.
That's a really fun part of our family life. Then my 13-year-old, Levi, is homeschooling. He's pursuing golf with all of his heart.
I get to stay humble. I say he keeps me young or he makes me old. I'm not sure which, but he's 13.
That's all my boys and I just love them so much.
Laura Dugger: (4:39 - 5:24)
That is wonderful. I was telling you before we started the recording that we run a top 10 series every year at The Savvy Sauce. This past summer revealed that the most popular top 10, number one episode, was all on the topic of homeschooling.
It's clearly a popular topic. I think it's more commonly considered than we realize. In fact, in your book, you taught me that according to analysis from the Washington Post, homeschooling has become the fastest growing form of education in America.
Monica, why do you believe that there's been a shift in the perception and implementation of homeschooling?
Monica Swanson: (5:25 - 7:18)
Great question because many of us, and I share in the book, grew up with the typical stereotype about homeschoolers. I just thought they were weird. I never even considered it until I had kids of my own and I was facing choices about their education.
Here in Hawaii, we probably have even more limited options than a lot of people do. I think the pandemic brought this wave of air quote homeschooling, which anyone out there who had that experience and hated it, that's not what homeschooling is like. I like to tell people, don't think that's all there is.
But that did kind of open some people's minds to like, could we do school at home? And maybe they were trying to do it through distance learning and failing, but then they're like, well, what if we did our own thing or use the charter or did something else? So, I think that kind of opened the door.
But beyond that, I also think that there's just a whole lot of people, especially in the faith community, but even outside of the faith community, who are just looking at our culture and our schools and saying what in the world is going on. What are these new things that are suddenly celebrated, and talked about, and really even pushed into our public schools in some areas more than others, of course. And what's the future going to look like, like if you have little kids and you're looking at the schools now, well, imagine in five years, because in the past two, three years, a lot has changed and I don't think it's going to turn around and go the other way.
So, I think people are just like, OK, what are our options here? And their minds are just being opened. And I think it's becoming more socially acceptable.
Some of the old stereotypes are being taken down, thankfully, and people are realizing that some great there's great options. There's a lot of ways you can homeschool. There is so many helpful resources.
And so, yeah, I think we're just learning more. And as we learn more, people are ready to try it.
Laura Dugger: (7:19 - 7:35)
Well, and then if you think back to your beginning days, what were some of the fears that you had when you were beginning this journey? And then could you also share some of the truth that Jesus was able to replace those fears with and your experience was able to replace?
Monica Swanson: (7:36 - 8:53)
Yes, 100 percent. Well, I think new things are scary, right, all the time. And it makes sense if people are concerned or have fear about if they can give their kids everything that they need.
I know for me, it was can I give my kids what they would get in a traditional public-school setting, even a private school? How can I match that at home? And I think that's what I hear from most people. When I'm like, what are your biggest fears?
If I ask on social media or something like that, most people would say, “I don't know if I could give my kids enough. I don't know where to get started.” And those were my exact questions, especially when I thought about high school. I wanted to make sure if my kids wanted to go to college, that door would be open or at least I wouldn't be the one to close it.
And I think that's a reasonable thing. I think parents should. I think even though college isn't for everyone, I think that it's reasonable to make sure your kids have that option if they choose in their later high school years.
So, with that, I think that it's OK to have some concerns. But oh, my goodness, the Lord just provided one step at a time. I didn't know much.
I just took that first step into homeschooling. And each year I learned a little bit more. I found more resources.
And my goodness, it wasn't nearly what I imagined it would be.
Laura Dugger: (8:55 - 9:10)
Well, then also when I'm thinking I've got your book right here and even from chapter one, you were sharing 20 good reasons to homeschool your kids, and you can share them all of you. I thought they were fantastic. But you want to just share a couple of your favorites.
Monica Swanson: (9:11 - 11:45)
Sure. Yes. Well, I mean, my favorites coming out the other side with three grown, you know, graduated kids would be the things that are hard to put like numbers or statistics by.
It's things like the relationships we have with one another. Seeing my boys be best friends as we're talking. They've got a text thread going because they're planning a road trip together.
When my second son graduates from college, they would choose each other over anyone. And I cannot deny that comes from all the time they spent together. Homeschooling our relationship with our boys.
We are just super close with our grown sons. And so, it is those kind of things. Seeing my boys’ faith.
I mean, 3 John 1:4 is my parenting life verse, which is, “I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.” And I am like, oh, my goodness, that came. I mean, can you give that to your kids if they go to a traditional school?
Absolutely. That is possible. But I will say when they're home all day long, it is a lot easier to live that Deuteronomy chapter six lifestyle of talking about spiritual things when you get up, when you walk along the road, when you lie down.
That's what we gave our kids. So those are the big things. But then in the book, I know some parents out there are like, I need to know, you know, more academics and all that.
So, we talk about how homeschool kids consistently outperform traditionally school kids on SAT tests, that colleges are now looking to recruit homeschool kids because they see how well they do in college. They're actually very well adjusted. They're very independent learners.
They're motivated. They do well on timelines. So, some of those things are in there as well.
And then, of course, things like mental health. It's just proven that homeschool kids sleep more, have better mental health, socialization, healthy socialization. Despite all the myths out there that homeschoolers cannot socialize, I'm like, actually, let's flip that script and point out the fact that homeschoolers have really healthy socialization because we're helping them choose the kind of people that they're going to surround themselves with.
I would say socialization might be one of the top reasons to choose homeschooling, not a factor that would be a concern for homeschoolers. So, yeah, we've got 20 good reasons. By the time you read all those, most people are like, OK, I'm convinced, sign me up.
And, you know, definitely somebody is going to read it and be like, yeah, those are good, but it's still not for me. Then that's fine. Hopefully you're still encouraged to be intentional in your parenting and look for some ways to be involved in your kids' education and all that.
Laura Dugger: (11:47 - 14:03)
Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. Midwest Food Bank exists to provide industry leading food relief to those in need while feeding them spiritually. They are a food charity with a desire to demonstrate God's love by providing help to those in need.
Unlike other parts of the world where there's not enough food in America, the resources actually do exist. That's why food pantries and food banks like Midwest Food Bank are so important. The goods that they deliver to their agency partners help to supplement the food supply for families and individuals across our country, aiding those whose resources are beyond stretched.
Midwest Food Bank also supports people globally through their locations in Haiti and East Africa, which are some of the areas hardest hit by hunger arising from poverty. This ministry reaches millions of people every year. And thanks to the Lord's provision, 99 percent of every donation goes directly toward providing food to people in need.
The remaining 1 percent of income is used for fundraising, cost of leadership, oversight and other administrative expenses. Donations, volunteers and prayers are always appreciated for Midwest Food Bank. To learn more, visit MidwestFoodBank.org or listen to Episode 83 of The Savvy Sauce, where the founder, David Kieser, shares miracles of God that he's witnessed through this nonprofit organization. I hope you check them out today. Well, and I'd love to just go a little bit further into that socialization because we don't get to hear the flipped perspective. And you are right.
As our family transitioned into homeschooling, there were two things that especially resonated from your book that everybody will ask about socialization. So, I'd love for you to unpack that. And then just so humorous that you were sharing a story in the book where somebody, I believe it was another doctor who discovered what you did as a homeschooling mom.
And he was saying, oh, I could never do it, as if you were asking him to do it. And he gave you all the reasons. But yes, yes.
With socialization, tell us more, because we don't get to hear that side very often. Totally.
Monica Swanson: (14:04 - 17:19)
Yes. Well, I think there's like three different places in the book where socialization comes up. So, if that's on anyone's mind, they're going to it's going to be covered well in there.
But I think, you know, and I confess, I'm like, listen, if you bring up socialization to a seasoned homeschool mom, depending on the day, you're going to get one of two responses. First, we might be really understanding because most of us have the same concern. At one point, like I said, I thought homeschoolers were weird.
My husband really hesitated to say yes to homeschooling because he thought the same thing. So, we get it. But we're also kind of tired of people bringing it up.
I mean, it's literally the first thing most people bring up. If I meet a stranger, I'm out with the kids on a Tuesday and they're like, oh, why aren't the kids in school? And I'm like, oh, we homeschool.
Literally, they don't even hesitate to say, oh, well, what do you do about socialization? And I'm like, interesting that my kids like carrying on a conversation with you right now, giving you eye contact, super comfortable. Do you really think they're struggling with socialization?
So, we get a little snarky sometimes because we are sick of that topic coming up. But again, I just love the fact that homeschoolers get to be socialized in an environment that we choose. And can you blow it?
Are there examples of homeschool families that are, you know, raising their kids without getting them out of the house? I'm sure that happens. I'm sure there's, you know, plenty of situations where parents don't do a good job of socializing their kids.
But I also like to say in the book that there's quirky, odd, awkward kids in every setting. I mean, that's just that's just humanity. Right.
So, I remember growing up in a public school. There were a good couple handfuls of really weird kids. Like they were just strange.
Nobody questioned that. They were just strange kids. Right.
Oh, but if they're homeschooled, then everybody's going to blame homeschooling on them being weird. So, end of the day, this is what I say, “Most likely, your kids are going to grow up to be like you, whether they're homeschooled or not, but if they're homeschooled, even more so because they're going to be around you.”
So, I say if you are a little bit weird, quirky, there's a good chance your kids are going to grow up to be that way, too. And you know what? There are worse things in the world than raising a quirky kid.
And I'd rather raise a quirky kid than a kid who is socialized in our current culture out there today and makes all kinds of choices that could lead them down some really dark paths. Quirky isn't all bad. Sometimes quirky is really good.
But on the other hand, if you say, I'm pretty social, I'm well adjusted. I'm, you know, a pretty cool human being. Your kids are probably going to turn out to be like you.
So, whatever you want your kids to be like, they're just going to model what mom and dad are like. So, it's on you, mom and dad. And if you're homeschooling, they're probably going to grow up to be a whole lot like you.
So, that's, that's the bottom line of it all. And, um, socialization is just not an issue. Yeah, we need to make some efforts.
We want to get them involved in whether it's a co-op sports youth ministry. There's so many opportunities and most homeschoolers I know are doing a really good job of that. And I don't think kids need daily all day long to be interacting with their peers.
I think that, you know, they need some of that, but mostly being home with family is the healthiest place for them to spend the majority of their time.
Laura Dugger: (17:20 - 17:55)
I appreciate that. And just want to draw one other piece. I thought it was so interesting that your family has chosen some things that would be considered counter cultural.
And I think that makes a lot of sense because Jesus was counter cultural. And yet there were seasons then where your boys gave you permission to share that they went through some lonely times, but I loved your takeaway that it actually was, it was a combination of those lonely seasons that really made them dive deep in their relationship with Christ and they got through those seasons.
Monica Swanson: (17:56 - 21:21)
Totally. Yeah. I love to talk about this.
And I think that the more I've, I've shared this, honestly, the more I've heard from people who are like, thank you. My kid's going through that now. I think loneliness is part of, well, first of all, it's part of the human experience.
We all have lonely seasons, right? But especially growing up, wherever kids are in school, loneliness is kind of just a built-in part of that adolescence season. And when kids are homeschooled, and especially if kids are making a choice to stay on that narrow path, there's likely to be some lonely seasons.
So, my boys maybe had their, their youth friends, you know, church friends. We're in a really small community. So, they have their couple of handfuls of friends.
When they hit those middle school years, kids start to make choices to hang out with the crowd, to compromise their faith, to make their own choices. And especially their friends who went to a public school were starting to make bad choices. And my boys were kind of faced with the decision.
Do I keep hanging out with them? Maybe I can influence them, you know, or do I just pull away? And that's where we as parents are important, coaching our kids through these things.
And so, my husband and I would be like, you know, we want to keep loving these kids, invite them over, invite them to youth group, invite them to our spaces. But no, we're not going to send you out with a crowd of young people who are making bad choices and hope that you're going to influence them. That's just not the way it typically works.
It's more likely you will be influenced by them. And, you know, I, I quote King Solomon and, and Paul, you know, he who walks with the wise will become wise, but a companion of fools will suffer harm. That's in the book of Proverbs.
And then Paul talks about, you know, don't be fooled. Bad company corrupts good character. So, we're really intentional about those influences in our kids' lives.
So, we made some hard choices and we watched our sons kind of hang out with mom and dad on Friday night. And they didn't suffer too much in that season, but it probably wasn't their ideal. But like you mentioned, what we saw was in that time they had started pursuing things like guitar, like photography.
One of my sons built a website, learned code, put his photos online. They were making stop motion videos and homemade movies. And most of all, they really spent time with the Lord.
There, their devotions weren't rushed because they had to be somewhere else. They dug into the Bible. They grew to see the Lord as their very best friend.
And after a couple of years, they started to develop some friendships that maybe they wouldn't have sought out earlier on. They were the youth group kids. They were the kids kind of like them.
Maybe we're lonely too. And they, to this day would say those are some of their lifelong best friends and all is well. But for a couple of years, there weren't a lot of social activities going on and they did just fine.
They didn't. Today they would say, “thank you mom and dad for those years because we grew the most during those seasons.” And so, if anyone's in that now, senior kid, maybe feeling a little bit lonely.
Yes. Make the efforts. I encourage you to get them involved where they can.
That's, you know, a good positive place for them, but also don't worry too much. Just make sure that they've got plenty of things to explore and be there for them. And they're going to come out.
Okay. On the other side.
Laura Dugger: (21:22 - 21:39)
That's so reassuring to hear. And you've been through it, but you also mentioned that freedom was one of the biggest benefits of homeschooling. So, Monica, what did that lifestyle allow you and your family to do that?
Otherwise, you wouldn't have experienced.
Monica Swanson: (21:40 - 22:54)
Totally. Yes. Well, I think, you know, some of the first things that come to mind living on an island where we don't get to travel a lot because, you know, road trips are hard to do on a little island.
So, taking a trip to the mainland is a big deal. And if all we could do is travel to the mainland over the holidays, during spring break or summertime, it would be really difficult and very expensive. So, we've loved that as my husband's work allows him time off, we can travel, see family, do adventures when other people aren't or the majority aren't.
Um, the freedom also to just, again, pursue those things that my boys ended up finding to be their passions and interests, having a professional surfer and a son who hopes to be a professional golfer, my goodness, they wouldn't be who they are today if they couldn't train according to the best times of day to get in the ocean or to go golfing. And so, we've just had a ton of freedom to pursue the things we want and make school fit in around that. Um, my older sons, one did speech and debate.
The other is real involved in ministry. Well, they both did a lot of ministry. So yeah, having your own schedule is pretty sweet.
And once you get a taste of that, it's hard to ever imagine going back.
Laura Dugger: (22:55 - 23:08)
I see that because I think one of my other big surprises has been that the school time takes so much less time than you would think. It doesn't fill up the entire typical public-school day.
Monica Swanson: (23:09 - 23:30)
So, for sure. Yes. Um, especially if you are efficient. I have a 13-year-old who likes to take a day that could be three to four hours and make it last nine, but you know what?
He's also learning time management. And I'm like, buddy, it's up to you. Do you want to be done at noon? Or, do you want to drive this out all day?
So, yes, I think that's an important part of growing up as well.
Laura Dugger: (23:30 - 24:07)
Uh, that's a great point where education is a life. And so, learning time management and things along the way, but in your book, you also dispel some of the most common reasons that families avoid homeschooling. And we've talked about that fear of missing out and socialization, but you also discuss how the parents may be feeling like they don't have the credentials or the patience. Or maybe they're working and you balance it, you recognize that homeschooling isn't always easy, but can you share some of the blessings that do result from this lifestyle?
Absolutely.
Monica Swanson: (24:07 - 27:25)
Yes. And I really wanted to include this chapter for two reasons. One, as I say in the book with some big sister love, I like to, you know, in a call people's bluff. I hear so many people say, “Oh, I could never homeschool.”
My son and I just would butt heads. And I'm like, you know what? We all have a tendency to butt heads or have that one child who's testing our patience, but that is not a reason to not homeschool.
I mean, really, that means we need to work on our parenting and our kids need to develop some character. So that's a, that's a parenting issue more even than a homeschool issue. And I'm not saying it doesn't count.
I have my, God waited till number four to give me one who really challenges me, but I'm seeing that as that's on me. I need to parent better. So, I understand for those who are in that position.
Um, and then some other things are, you know, so let me go back to that. Some of the reasons people give are, like I say, maybe a smokescreen where really you could homeschool. Um, maybe you would say you, you feel like you have to work to provide income for your family.
I'm like, I get it. Life is hard. You may need to work, but at the same time, I want to challenge you on that and say, is it a need or a want?
Is your extra work because of a lifestyle you want to keep up? Cause I know people who have downsized, who sold a car, who have skipped their summer vacation. They have made huge sacrifices so that they can homeschool and they have no regrets.
Also, sometimes we can find a way to get creative and maybe take that job you go to every day and find a way to do it from home, maybe change your hours, maybe recruit some help. There are creative ways. Most people can homeschool if they want to.
I mean, there's full websites dedicated to single parents who homeschool. And I linked to those in my resource section. But with that being said, I also think it's fair to say there are some situations too, where I'm like, I get it.
This may not be your season to homeschool. You may have an opportunity to send kids to a school where you feel really good, where you can stay involved. Um, if there's a parent with a mental health issue or a serious medical condition, and it's just not a good environment for the kids, I get it.
Sometimes in a divorce situation, it's just going to be impossible. You just know, kids are going back and forth, and it may not be ideal time to try homeschooling. So, I'd like to acknowledge there are certainly times where there is all the grace in the world.
You do what's right for your family in this season. But a lot of those reasons people give me, I'm like, yeah, you can still homeschool if you really wanted to. So, I like to be fair and balanced there.
And there is a bonus chapter for those who buy the book on my website that is facing some of the real challenges that come with homeschooling. Because again, I'd like to be really honest and say, there is no school setting that is ideal. There's going to be pros and cons with everything. Homeschooling is not perfect.
You know, we battle over screens because my son is home all day. So, I see that as one of the challenges we face. You know, certainly there are real challenges that come with homeschooling, and I like to address those.
So that's what's in the bonus chapter as well. I hope will be just a lot of encouragement and some ideas, and some resources that will help make those things a little bit easier.
Laura Dugger: (27:26 - 27:47)
Well, and I want to go back to something you said about getting creative with your work and even having this conversation with you right now. This is your third book that you've written while homeschooling and you're a podcaster and you're on other people's podcasts. So, what are some tips from what that looked like for you, even though you had all those responsibilities simultaneously?
Monica Swanson: (27:49 - 28:53)
Yes. You know, I think the more organized you are, the better you are with time management, the better you're going to do. I'm not natural at any of that.
I'm a little bit more go with the flow person. So, it's challenging for me, but I do think where there's a will, there's a way. So, there've been seasons where I've hired a high school homeschooled girl to come in and help with my younger son so that I can manage my older boys and I can get some work done.
My husband, he's a doctor in a hospital and his work schedule is such that he works for, you know, a bunch of days in a row, but then he's off. And during his off weeks, I'm like, we need to team up. You need to help with homeschooling because I have to write this book.
So, there's definitely some creative ways, depending on your life situation and all of that, there's almost always something you can do, whether it's recruiting a grandparent or hiring some help. But time management is huge. If you can be up early, if you can use, you know, your afternoons or evenings, it's going to work, but it's not going to come natural.
So, you're going to have to be really intentional about time management.
Laura Dugger: (28:53 - 29:05)
Oh, that's really good. And how do you respond to the common phrase that many people say that they desire for their children to be salt and light in, let's say their public school?
Monica Swanson: (29:07 - 32:14)
Sure. I love the heart behind that. And I just, you know, totally want to applaud any parent who has that.
We, my husband and I, raise our kids to be prepared to share their faith. We want them to be a little evangelist. And so, I get that.
Um, but I also was really careful writing about this part because it was super important to me to tackle this one. Well, because I think it's super important for parents to realize that that's a big burden to put on children in their formative years while kids are still growing up. Um, you know, the one command we have from Jesus was that the little children would come to him.
It doesn't say he's not speaking to children when he says, go out and make disciples. Now, do we hope our kids might bring some friends that to youth group in church. That they might share Jesus with their friends?
Oh, my goodness. Yes. But that was never a command given to children. And so, for us to say, Oh, go be salt and light in a school where they're teaching all kinds of crazy, progressive, you know, things that, that are not biblically sound at all. Um, where they're in a culture where teachers are teaching things that our kids aren't prepared to come up against.
It's just not fair on our kids. And like I said earlier, those influences are more likely to take them down. So, I encourage parents to really consider what kids are called to, which has come to Jesus.
And we, as parents are called to train up our kids, to raise our kids in the training and admonition of the Lord. And like I already quoted Deuteronomy to teach our kids, these commands all day long so that their faith can be strong enough that when that day comes, that they leave the home, that they go out into the world. Like my older boys have that they are prepared while my older boys were in college, watching some of their friends, faith, deconstruct, watching them really get rattled.
When people challenge their faith, my boys were like, no way we know what we know, what we believe, and why we believe it because we had all those years to really develop a grounded faith. And so, I just encourage people to consider this idea of kids being salt and light. It's a sweet idea, but I don't think that sending them into the public school system, even a private school where even though it may be a Christian school, a lot of the students typically are not coming from believing families.
That's a tough position to put a child in, in today's world, maybe back 20, 30, 40 years ago, that would have been fine because the prevalent, you know, mindset was a Christian community, a Christian culture. Today, it's not that way. Today, we need to be just really aware of what's out there and it's, scary what's out there.
So, we need to prepare our kids well for that. And it's hard to do that in the short amount of time we have when they go to school every day, all day. We just have little snippets of time with them. So that would be my response.
There's more in the book and, and it's an important topic. And, and again, God bless you. If that's your heart's desire, I want to encourage that.
I just think we need to make sure we're seeing it for what it is and not assuming our kids are able to do something that they're not ready to do.
Laura Dugger: (32:15 - 33:23)
By now, I hope you've checked out our updated website, thesavvysauce.com, so that you can have access to all the additional freebies we are offering, including all of our previous articles and all of our previous episodes, which now include transcriptions. You will be equipped to have your own practical chats for intentional living when you read all the recommended questions in the articles or gain insight from expert guests and past episodes. As you read through the transcriptions, because many people have shared with us that they want to take notes on previous episodes, or maybe their spouse prefers to read our conversations rather than listen to them, we heard all of that.
And we now have provided transcripts for all our episodes. Just visit thesavvysauce.com. All of this is conveniently located under the tab show notes on our website. Happy reading.
Well, and I'm also curious, Monica, what other surprises came along the way during your homeschool journey?
Monica Swanson: (33:24 - 34:23)
Hmm. Well, I think the whole experience was a little bit of a surprise just because I went into it without any idea what I was doing. Uh, I think just how much I enjoyed learning things that probably I never got from my own education.
I mean, my son's eighth grade history. I'm like, oh my goodness, I'm learning so much right alongside you. So, I think for me, it's been really fun to kind of get a second chance at school.
Uh, I love, you know, seeing kids learn something new, seeing that light bulb moment. Uh, just the whole environment of getting to witness our kids having those aha moments, it's been really, really fun for me. And then seeing kids also kind of team up. And when one's struggling with math and the older one can help the younger one and, and they're kind of, you know, debating over different things that they're learning in school.
I'm like, wow, this is so much fun. Things that I wouldn't have anticipated, but that have been really fun to watch happen over time.
Laura Dugger: (34:24 - 35:03)
Well, and I think you also pointed out a few different things that I hadn't considered as much before. Just that you would take that more leisurely pace over the hour of stress and rush to get out of the house in the morning and even one other little piece. I love how you articulated that you were so grateful to get to raise your boys reading Proverbs because that's imparting wisdom rather than culture to be our trainer. So, for all of these reasons, if somebody's saying, okay, I'm in, what are the three steps that you recommend they take?
Monica Swanson: (35:05 - 37:47)
Yes, I've got three steps listed in my book. So, the three steps, if you are interested in becoming a homeschooler, the first steps, you know, always pray. Have conversations, talk to some homeschool families that you know. I do like to remind people, worst case scenario, you hate it, you can always go back, right? Although I also love to encourage people to consider that idea of really owning their homeschool experience and becoming homeschoolers and making that your family culture.
So, once you've started, I love to hear that families are like, we're in it for the long haul, we're going to do this. But yes, you can try it, and you can give it a trial run. That's okay.
But once you decide, the three steps are to know the legal requirements to officially begin homeschooling. That part isn't hard at all. It's actually really simple.
And in the book, I give you some websites. You can go to the HSLDA website actually is really helpful. They have tons of information, but if you go there, they have information state by state. You click on it. There's actually a lawyer from your state or that represents your state that tells you the legal requirements for your state for homeschooling. And it's really quite simple, pretty much in every state.
So, number one is super easy.
Number two is probably what most people take the most time on. And that's choosing your curriculum, the style of homeschooling you want to have.
This can be super exciting. It can be super overwhelming, but I list all the different styles of homeschooling as well as some curriculum choices in my book. And what I tell people is we're all going to probably switch it up a few times.
So don't overthink this, find something that you want to try and try it. You can always change later. Just get started.
Don't get frozen on that step.
And then number three, make a plan for how you want your homeschool days to look. And that's the, I think the fun part.
That's where you decide, do we want to homeschool year-round? Do we want to be on the traditional school calendar? What hours of the day do we want to homeschool?
How do we want that to look? And you get to decide this for your family. And that's back to that freedom point you had.
You have the freedom to choose what you want it to look like. And so that's kind of a fun part of the process. Those three steps are really simple.
And then everything that follows that you have plenty of time to figure it out. You don't have to know all the answers. You don't have to know how you're going to get your eight-year-old into college.
You've got time. Take a deep breath because it's all going to work out. And this book does cover preschool to college.
So, everything you need to know to hit that next step, whatever it might be, is all in the book.
Laura Dugger: (37:48 - 37:59)
Wonderful. And Monica, if we want to continue learning from you, whether it's about homeschooling or parenting or get more encouragement, where would you direct us to go online after this conversation?
Monica Swanson: (38:00 - 38:38)
Ah, thank you for asking. Yes. My home base is my website, monicaswanson.com.
And there's links to my podcast, my books, all the different things there. My favorite place to hang out on social media is Instagram. And I'm at monicaswanson_ there.
And if you find me, please say hi. Tell me how you found me because I love to make new friends, and it is genuinely my heart's desire to encourage families. And I say in the book, as much as I'm pro-homeschooling, I'm even more pro-family.
So whatever choice you make, um, you know, all the grace in the world to you, just continue to do your best to be intentional as a family and God's going to honor that.
Laura Dugger: (38:39 - 38:58)
I love the humility with which you speak when you answer all of these questions. And, and you are probably already familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, Monica this is my final question for you today.
What is your savvy sauce?
Monica Swanson: (38:59 - 39:34)
What is my savvy sauce? I think my savvy sauce is to, um, just recognize that the word of God has everything we need for every situation that we face. And so, recognizing you mentioned Proverbs already, but that there is so much wisdom.
There's so much practical advice and help that the more we turn to the word of God for what we need, and we point our kids to it as the truth that they need for every day of their life, things are all going to fall into place when you start with the word of God. So that would be my savvy sauce.
Laura Dugger: (39:35 - 43:12)
Well, and Monica, I just greatly admire how your faith in Jesus is the driving force behind your family and behind your personal decisions in every arena. And that has been so evident throughout our chat today. So, thank you for all the encouragement you shared and thank you for being my guest.
Monica Swanson:
Oh, thank you so much for having me.
Laura Dugger: (43:12 – 43:40)
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?
It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?
Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?
We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.
We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.
Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.
I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.
I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Apr 28, 2025
Monday Apr 28, 2025
261. Edible Theology with Kendall Vanderslice
John 6:35 NIV "Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty."
**Transcription Below**
Kendall Vanderslice says "Yes, before you ask, that is my true name."
Kendall is a baker and writer whose best thinking occurs as she works dough between her hands; scribbles down thoughts on pieces of parchment dusted in flour, until she can parse them out later before her keyboard. When she embarked on a career as a pastry chef, she found that her love of bread transformed the ways she read Scripture. Fascinated by God’s use of food throughout the arc of the Gospel, she merged her work in the kitchen with academic study of food and theology.
As a graduate of Wheaton College in Illinois (BA Anthropology), she began engaging questions of food and faith. Interested in commensality—or, the social dynamics of eating together—she studied food at Boston University (MLA Gastronomy). Her thesis on church meals sparked a range of theological questions, leading her to Duke University where she wrote a thesis on the theology of bread (MTS). In 2018 she was named a James Beard Foundation national scholar for her work on food and religion.
She lives in Durham, North Carolina, with her beagle, Strudel, her sourdough starter Bread Astaire, and her brood of hens: Judith Jones and the Three Gourmands.
Questions and Topics We Cover:
- You've studied so much about food and theology . . . are there any favorite lessons or resources that you still think about today?
- Is there any other science in the bread baking that is fascinating because it also has a richer, deeper spiritual meaning?
- What's one recipe in the book you're especially excited about?
Other Episode Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce:
Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce:
15 The Supernatural Power Present While Gathering at the Table with Devi Titus
Experiencing Joy, Connection, and Nourishment at the Table with Abby Turner
Fresh Take on Hospitality with Jaime Farrell
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Dream Seller Travel, Megan Rokey
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:22)
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
Do you love to travel?
If so, then let me introduce you to today's sponsor, Dream Seller Travel, a Christian-owned and operated travel agency. Check them out on Facebook or online at DreamSellerTravel.com.
We were one of those families who joined in the COVID trend of baking our own bread.
And so, I was fascinated even years later when I came across my guest for today, Kendall Vanderslice. She's an author and the founder of Edible Theology. And I've always appreciated different verses being brought to life, even things that we interact with every day, such as salt and yeast.
But God has richer meanings for all of these. And so, I can't wait for Kendall to unpack these in our conversation today. Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Kendall.
Kendall Vanderslice: (1:20 - 1:22)
Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here.
Laura Dugger: (1:23 - 1:30)
Would you mind just starting us off by sharing a bit about your background and what led you to the work that you get to do today?
Kendall Vanderslice: (1:31 - 3:46)
Sure. So, I have always loved baking. I always, you know, when I was a child, but especially once I was in middle school and high school, I had a lot of anxiety.
And so, when I just ever, anytime I needed to work through any sort of scope of emotions, I would always turn to the kitchen. Working with my hands became this way to sort of ground me and help me find calm in the midst of sort of my mind just buzzing. I was also one of five kids.
So, it was like after everyone had gone to bed and the kitchen was silent, was the only time there was quiet in my house. And so that was kind of always became the source of calm and grounding for me. And so, then when I graduated high school and was trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life, once again, I turned to the kitchen as a way to try and process what I should do.
And long story short, over time, I realized, oh, maybe actually this work of baking is the work that I am called to do. And so, I ended up taking a very circuitous path to get there. I took a gap year after high school.
I went to undergrad and studied anthropology in college. And in that time, learned that I could, my love of food and my love of the kitchen, I could examine not just in the practice of cooking, but through an anthropological and historical lens, looking at how food shapes community and shapes culture and how culture shapes the foods that we eat. And so, from there, I went and worked in professional kitchens.
But I had all these historical, cultural, theological questions kind of buzzing around at the same time. And, you know, I would go from my work at the bakery on Sunday morning. I would rush from work to church and I would receive communion each week with bread dough still stuck to my arms.
And I started to question, what does this bread that I spend my whole morning baking have to do with this bread that I receive at the communion table? And so that just unlocked a whole new path of what I could do with bread and with my baking beyond just in the kitchen and larger understanding how it shapes our awareness of who God is and how God is at work in our lives and in our communities.
Laura Dugger: (3:47 - 3:58)
Wow, that is incredible. And even today, do you want to share a few of your offerings? Because edible theology was a new concept to me, and it's just fascinating what all you have going on.
Kendall Vanderslice: (3:59 - 5:31)
Yeah, absolutely. So, my primary program is that I teach a workshop called Bake and Pray. And so, this is a workshop where I teach people how to bake bread as a form of prayer.
So, we look at the ways that bread is at play throughout the narrative of Scripture, kind of what it is that God is using, why it is that God is using bread as the storytelling device in the narrative of Scripture, and why Jesus would give us bread at the center of Christian worship. But then at the same time, we're learning how the actual practice of baking bread can be a way to connect with God, to find rest and to understand God's presence with us in a very tangible form. So, with that, I also have a handful of books.
Most recently, I released a book called Bake and Pray. It's sort of this workshop in book form. It's a collection of recipes, but also a collection of liturgies, so that you have the tools you need to make your time in the kitchen a time of prayer. I call it a prayer book meets cookbook.
But I also have a handful of other resources, a Bible study or a small group study called Worship at the Table, where it's actually helping people gather around the table and understand how God is at work through the table. And I have a podcast that it was a limited run.
There are 30 episodes called Kitchen Meditations. They are short meditations to listen to while you cook, while you're in the kitchen. So, you can understand the food that you eat more fully and also understand how your time preparing it can be a time of worship.
Laura Dugger: (5:31 - 5:50)
I love that. And there's so much to unpack. But let's just start here with all the things that you've studied with food and theology and gone to school for years and put this into practice.
Are there any favorite lessons that stand out and are maybe ones that you still think about today?
Kendall Vanderslice: (5:51 - 6:57)
Well, you know, one of my favorite books that helped shape my understanding of food is a book that was written in the 1960s by an Episcopal priest named Robert Carr-Capin. It's a book called The Supper of the Lamb. This book is just a delightful book to read.
I think everybody should read it. Robert Carr-Capin was he was an Episcopal priest, but he was also a food writer and he also was a humor writer. He and his wife wrote a satirical column together.
And so, The Supper of the Lamb is kind of the culmination of all three. It is this beautiful reflection on a theology of food in the table, but it is hilarious as well. And so, it is written as instructions to host a dinner party that is all built around preparing lamb for eight people in four different ways.
And so, it's reflections on kind of, you know, this revelation, the imagery in the book of Revelation on the marriage supper of the lamb, But then taking that to be a very liberal dinner party that he hosts in his home. And it will forever change the way that you think about food and think about the table and think about how God cares about food.
Laura Dugger: (6:58 - 7:13)
Wow, that's interesting. And even a piece of that that you had highlighted before is community, that food draws us together in community. Are there any lessons or reflections you have on that topic as well?
Kendall Vanderslice: (7:14 - 9:03)
Yeah, I mean, so I spend my days traveling the country and visiting churches and eating meals with strangers all the time. This is such a central part of my work. So, my first book was a study of churches that eat together as their primary form of worship.
And so, I had the opportunity to research 10 different churches across the country and look at how does this practice of eating together regularly shape their understanding of community, but also shape their understanding of church and shape their understanding of worship. And what I saw in that practice of traveling and eating with all of these churches was that communities that were built around the table, where their primary rhythm of gathering was this practice of eating together and talking together and dialoguing together. It created such resilience within these communities as they faced conflict and tension within them that their commitment to eating together, but then their understanding of these community meals as being intrinsically connected to the communion table, the meal of bread and the cup that they also shared, it shaped their ability to have conversations and wade into hard topics that communities might otherwise try to say, you know, kind of avoid, because what they believed was that, you know, the table that we gather at regularly is a place that can kind of manage and hold on to those tensions.
And it's a place where these hard conversations can arise. But also at the end of each of these meals, we remember that we are going to share the bread and the cup together and that God has told us that we have been made one in the body and blood of Christ. And so, we have a responsibility to care for one another, even as we argue and disagree and have a really, you know, dig into these hard conversations.
Laura Dugger: (9:04 - 9:58)
That is beautiful. And I think of so many things when you say that. I'm in the book of Acts right now, my quiet time.
And so, the early churches, they were breaking bread together daily. You see that as part of the impact, the outflow that came from that. And then just, I think, gratitude as you share, because I wasn't a follower of Jesus growing up.
Our family went to church. And by the time I was in high school, all of my family were believers, including my siblings. I was the last one.
But the church that we went to, we shared a meal together every Sunday. And those relationships are long lasting. Then you hear about what people are actually going through.
It's such a natural way to dive deeper into that fellowship. And so, I love that you've traveled around and studied this. And I'm also curious if you've connected with one of my past guests, Sarah Harmeyer with the Neighbors Table.
Kendall Vanderslice: (9:59 - 10:03)
I am familiar with her work, but I have never actually connected with her.
Laura Dugger: (10:04 - 10:09)
OK, you two. I'll link her episode in the show notes, but I think you two would have a lot of fun together.
Kendall Vanderslice: (10:09 - 10:14)
Oh, great. Great, great. I know I've seen some of her tables on.
She's the one who builds tables. Is that right?
Laura Dugger: (10:14 - 10:15)
Yes. Yes.
Kendall Vanderslice: (10:15 - 10:19)
Yes. OK. I have seen her tables on Instagram, and they look just absolutely beautiful.
Laura Dugger: (10:19 - 10:37)
I love it. Well, I'd also like to talk about your most recent book, because there's one part where you talk about the sacred language of bread. And I'd love for you just to walk us through some significant scriptures that highlight bread throughout the Bible.
Kendall Vanderslice: (10:37 - 19:43)
Yeah, absolutely. So, one of the reasons that I love to think of bread in terms of a language itself is because so often we think of our faith as being something that happens predominantly in our minds, that it is the things we believe about God and the words that we say to God. And it becomes this very sort of mental exercise of worshiping God in our heads.
And we forget that the rest of our bodies and the rest of our lives are a part of how we know God as well, that we were created in these human bodies with all of these senses. And it's only through these senses that we get to know the world around us. And it's in getting to know this creation around us that we get to know our creator as well.
And so when we think of our faith as happening something predominantly in our minds, then when we have these moments where we don't feel like God is present, or we feel like we don't hear from God, or we just don't have the energy to, you know, to read scripture every day, or we feel like we, you know, I'm just like praying and praying and praying, and I've just exhausted the words I have to say. Then it's easy for us to feel like we've been abandoned by God, that we're in this sort of spiritual dark place. But Jesus, he calls himself the word, but, you know, Jesus is the word that was present with God in the beginning.
But Jesus also calls himself the bread of life. And Jesus identifies himself as something deeply tangible. And he offers his own body to us in the form of bread at the communion table.
And so, Jesus is telling us that Jesus is present with us in this very tangible form, something that we can mix together with our hands, something that we can taste on our tongues, something that we can feel in our bellies as we digest it. That Jesus is telling us, like, I am with you in this deeply tangible way. And if you don't feel my presence, and if you don't, you know, hear what I am telling you, or you don't feel like I am listening to you, know that you can eat this bread and have this very tangible reminder that I have promised to remain present with you and to remain faithful to you.
And so, the ways that we see this at work in Scripture, once we understand that, you know, bread is not just a metaphor, that bread is actually something very physical and tangible, a way that God speaks to us, I think it changes the way that we see bread show up in Scripture. That it's not just a handy metaphor that shows up every, all over the place in the Bible, but that Jesus is actually, that God is actually doing something through bread itself.
So, the very first place that we see bread appear in Scripture is as early as Genesis 3:19, “It is by the sweat of your brow that you will eat your bread until you return to the ground, for from it you were taken, from dust you come, and to dust you will return.” So, prior to this point in Genesis, we have the creation accounts, we have, you know, that God has created the garden, placed humanity in the garden to tend to this creation, to care for it. And they are intended to, you know, they are nourished by the fruits of these trees, they delight in God by delighting in God's creation.
And God gave them just one restriction, which was a restriction on what they could eat. And so, in Genesis 3:19, we know that they have failed to honor this restriction that God has given them. And we are now learning the ramifications of that fall.
And one of those ramifications is that the soil is going to sprout forth thistles and thorns. That we will no longer just be nourished by the fruits of the trees, but that we will have to labor in this soil. We will have to labor against a creation that works against us in order to have our nutritional needs met.
But at the same time, God offers us this gift, that it's by the sweat of your brow, you will eat your bread. Our bread, you know, doesn't just grow from a tree. The humanity was probably not eating bread in the garden.
But in this offering of bread, that it's by the sweat of your brow, you will eat your bread. Humans are being told, yes, we will have to labor in the soil in order to nourish ourselves. But also, we are being invited to participate with God in the transformation of creation into something really delicious as well.
So, bread is, at the same time, both this picture of the brokenness of creation and yet also the goodness of God. This blessing, this gift from God in the midst of a broken creation. The production of bread, historically, has required a lot of work.
It requires months and months of laboring in the soil to grow wheat, harvest wheat, thresh it, and then grind it into flour. Turn that flour into dough, gather firewood to heat up an oven, and then turn that dough into bread before finally being able to eat it. So, humanity has long known that it is, you know, there is this deep, this incredible amount of labor required to make bread.
And yet also, bread contains almost all of the nutrients that humans need in order to survive. We can live off of just bread and water alone for a very, very, very long time. And in fact, many humans throughout most of human history have lived off of just bread and water for a very, very, very long time.
So then when we see bread show up in other places in scripture, we see it show up as this picture of God's miraculous provision for God's people. We see it show up as a sign of God's presence with God's people. And we see it as a sign of God's promises to God's people that God will continue this work of restoration until we have this imagery of this renewed creation in the book of Revelation.
So, one picture of that is in this provision of manna for the Israelites in the desert. You know, I think oftentimes for us, we read this story and we think the miracle is like, well, I don't know about you, but I've never opened my front door and had bread strewn across my lawn that I could just go out and gather. But we can still picture just walking into a grocery store and having a whole aisle of bread to choose from, right?
For us, the miracle seems like it just appears out of nowhere, but it doesn't seem all that crazy to just have a bunch of ready-made bread available to you. But for the Israelites, the work of making bread would have been nine months or more of labor between growing wheat, harvesting it, turning that wheat into flour, flour into dough, dough into bread. That's work that was not possible while they were wandering in the desert.
And so, when God is providing this miracle of manna, all they have to do is go out every single morning and gather, and they have to trust day after day after day that God is going to continue to provide. So, then we see a mirror of this in the story of the feeding of the 5,000. Once again, I think the miracle to us oftentimes feels like, you know, well, I've never seen five loaves capable of feeding 5,000 plus people.
But still, we can picture a Costco aisle of bread that probably has enough bread to feed 5,000 people. Just the presence of bread enough for that size crowd doesn't seem all that miraculous. But for the crowd who was gathered on the hillside with Jesus, they would have had a much closer awareness of just how much work was required to grow enough, in this case, barley.
One of the accounts says that it was barley bread. So, to grow enough barley to make enough bread to feed this crowd. And at the very least, in Mark's account of the gospel, we see a very direct link to work and how much work would be required to feed this crowd.
Because in the gospel of Mark, it says that it would take more than half a year's wages to buy enough bread to feed this crowd. So, this distinct connection between labor and hard work in order to feed, to provide the bread for these people. But Jesus circumvents that labor required to either make the bread or buy the bread and just miraculously provides these five loaves to feed 5,000 plus people.
So then on the night before his death, Jesus takes, I think, this imagery one step further. It is not just the labor of making bread that Jesus circumvents in his provision of bread for his disciples. He offers bread to his disciples and says, “This is my body that is broken for you.”
Jesus is circumventing the very work of defeating the curse of sin and death. He has taken the labor of defeating sin and death onto his own body. And he's offering that body back to his disciples and onto anyone who remembers Him in this meal of bread and the cup.
But he's offering to us His body as in the form of bread, as this picture of the labor that Jesus has taken on, the curse that Jesus has taken on so that we can then live in freedom. And so, we're still currently living in this sort of in-between time where we know that Jesus, that Christ has died, that Christ is risen, and we are still awaiting the day when Christ will come again. We're still awaiting this imagery in the book of Revelation where creation is restored.
And I believe our relationship to bread will purely be one of delight and joy and freedom. But right now, we do still experience that brokenness of creation in relationship to bread. But also, bread is still a way in which we can know God, in which we can trust God's promises to us in this very tangible form in which we can believe that God is with us, even when we don't feel it.
Laura Dugger: (19:43 - 22:17)
Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. Do you have a bucket list of travel destinations? Or maybe you have a special event coming up like a big anniversary, a honeymoon, or even just that first trip to Europe?
If so, you need to call Dream Seller Travel. Dream Seller Travel is located in Central Illinois, but works with clients all across the USA. Whether you're wanting to plan a large family get-together someplace tropical, or take a cruise with your family, or maybe you want to explore the history and culture of a European town, regardless of the trip, Dream Seller Travel is there to assist you with your planning needs.
From the customized trip design, and the ideas through the small details and the preparations before the trip, and even while traveling, Dream Seller Travel is there with you every step along the way, making it seamless and stress-free. Dream Seller Travel can work with your travel plans as you have laid them out, or they will customize a trip for your requests. In most cases, there's absolutely no service fee for this work.
Instead of booking online and being the one to deal with your airline schedule changes or the sudden change in country entry requirements, or the hotel that looks beautiful but is really under construction, call a professional. Let them deal with the problems that arise while traveling so you can just enjoy the trip. Dream Seller Travel has been planning dream trips since 2005 to amazing destinations such as Alaska, Italy, Hawaii, Canada, the Caribbean, United Kingdom, Germany, Switzerland, France, South Africa, Iceland, and more.
Where do you dream of going? You can reach out to Dream Seller Travel at 309-696-5890, or check them out online at DreamSellerTravel.com. Thanks for your sponsorship.
In line with your brand of edible theology, I'd love to go further into the scripture. That was so fascinating. I feel like you're so succinct in the way that you put that all together.
So, I kind of want to do a deeper dive into a couple of the key ingredients of bread and then have you share their significance both in contributing to food, but also their significance for our own lives. Absolutely. Let's just begin with salt.
Will you share the scripture and insight into salt?
Kendall Vanderslice: (22:18 - 23:20)
Yeah. One of the things that I love about salt, I think oftentimes, especially here in America, we have a sort of distorted understanding of the role that salt plays in our food. Oftentimes, we treat table salt.
We usually have table salt that you just add onto your food after cooking it. Maybe you add a little bit of salt while cooking, but for the most part, you just sprinkle on table salt after. And it almost is treated as this kind of added flavor.
But salt actually should not be this added flavor at the end. Salt should be incorporated into the cooking process because salt opens up our taste receptors on our tongues, and it opens up the flavors in the dish. So, salt actually should not be the predominant flavor that we taste.
Salt should be the thing that allows us to taste everything else. And I think when we understand salt in that form, it should reframe our understanding of what it means to be the salt of the earth or to be salt and light in the world. What does it mean that salt is not the thing that itself gets tasted, but salt is the thing that opens up the flavors of everything else around us?
Laura Dugger: (23:20 - 23:30)
Kendall, can you take that even a step further? What does that practically look like for believers really living as salt of the earth?
Kendall Vanderslice: (23:34 - 24:26)
I think one of the great joys of the ways that these metaphors at work in Scripture is that we get to continually explore and see what that means for us and where God might be calling us. But I do think that being aware that to be the salt of the earth is to help pull out the best in the communities around us, to pull out the best in the people around us, is just this really beautiful picture of how I think God asks us to work in community. But our job is not necessarily to be the strong presence.
Our job is not necessarily to make sure everyone knows that we are present, but instead our job is to identify and build up and pull out the best parts of the people around us in the communities that we are in.
Laura Dugger: (24:27 - 24:56)
That's so good. I love how you shared that because for me, as you were unpacking it, I was just thinking that we as the salt, when you taste it, you don't want to think, oh, that's salt. You want, like you said, to open it up to others.
And so that's our purpose is to reflect and glorify Jesus and to point to him. So, I'm sure there's countless meanings. Will you also do the same thing and share the significance of yeast?
Kendall Vanderslice: (24:57 - 29:44)
Yeah, sure. So, yeast is, you know, also a fascinating, fascinating thing. And we are only really just beginning to understand sort of the microbial world and the role that it plays in our lives, in our bodies, in our world.
And so, it's opening up entirely new understandings of how yeast is at work in scripture. One thing that we have to bear in mind is that the writers of scripture did not actually know what yeast was. We were only able to identify the microbes that are yeast and bacteria in the last 150 years.
And so, prior to Louis Pasteur, humans didn't know what yeast was. They only knew the reactions of yeast. You know, you saw if I mix together, you know, this, if I let this flour and water sit, it comes back to life and I can mix that into more flour and water and it can become bread.
You know, I can mix it in with a lot of water and a little bit of yeast and some hops and it becomes beer. I can mix it in with grapes and it becomes wine. So, we see the reactions, but don't necessarily know what it is that is responsible for those reactions.
So, it is fairly new that we have this, you know, in the scope of human history, it's fairly new that we have this understanding of what are the actual kind of little critters that are involved in this process. And so, I have a really dear friend who she studies theology of the microbiome. So, a lot of her research is all based around, you know, how does this emerging research on yeast and bacteria shape our understanding of what it means to be human?
And so then how does that shape the ways we read in scripture, both passages about yeast and also about what it means to be human? And so it is, I think there's just, it's a field that is ripe for exploration and we are only beginning to scratch the surface of all the beautiful imagery that's at play here. But one of the things that I find most fascinating is that leaven or yeast, it is used as a metaphor for two different things in scripture.
In one passage, it is used as a metaphor for the kingdom of heaven, the parable of leaven, the kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman mixed into three measures of flour until it leavened the whole batch. But apart from that, yeast is always used as an image of sin, the ways that sin works through community. We have the passage about the leaven of the Pharisees.
I believe there are a few others as well. So oftentimes leaven is used as this picture of sin and the ways that sin sort of multiplies and works through communities. But at the same time, it's this picture of the kingdom of God, that it's this little bit of yeast that slowly multiplies and through its multiplication, it transforms the entire community.
It seems like a strange sort of tension that why would we use the same thing as a picture of both the kingdom of heaven and a picture of sin? And I think it makes more sense when we understand a sourdough culture. So, a sourdough culture is a culture of bacteria and yeast that is used to leaven bread, to raise bread.
So, we all have wild yeast and bacteria living in the air, on the surface of our skin, on the surface of everything around us. This wild yeast and bacteria is what makes the world go round. It's what makes our brains function.
It's what allows our bellies to digest food. It is what sort of makes everything work. And there is always this presence of both pathogenic bacteria and also beneficial bacteria.
That is true within our bodies. That's true sort of all around us. It's true in the sourdough culture that there is always the presence of pathogenic bacteria, but there is also the beneficial bacteria.
And so, to maintain a healthy sourdough starter, you have to feed it regularly. And as long as you feed it regularly and maintain its health, that good bacteria is going to keep the pathogenic bacteria in check. It's when you start to starve that starter that the pathogenic bacteria gets stronger and it overtakes the good bacteria and your sourdough starter goes bad.
And so, I think that's a really beautiful way to think about both how the kingdom of God works and also how sin works in our communities. We live in a broken creation. Sin will always be present.
But when we are digging ourselves, like when we are staying grounded and rooted in scripture, when we're staying grounded and rooted in church community and worship and prayer, when we are maintaining these healthy communities that are rooted to God, then we're able to help keep that pathogenic bacteria, that sin in check. But it's when we do not that it can start to take over and it can spread through a community just as quickly and easily as the kingdom of God can also spread through a community.
Laura Dugger: (29:45 - 29:58)
You just have brilliant answers. Is there any other science in the bread baking that is also fascinating to you because it has a richer, deeper spiritual meaning?
Kendall Vanderslice: (29:58 - 32:22)
One of the things that I love, I oftentimes lead these bread baking workshops for groups of leaders, especially church leaders or faith leaders who are oftentimes having to manage just large groups of people where they're constantly facing internal conflict. I don't think anyone who leads a group of people has managed to bring together the people that never have any kind of disagreement. One of the things that I love about bread is that inherent to the structure of bread is tension.
The backbone of bread is this protein called gluten that is made up of two different proteins called gluten and gliadin. Gluten and gliadin have two opposing qualities to them. One likes to stretch and stretch and stretch.
It's what's called the elastic quality. One likes to hold its shape, what's called the plastic quality. When these protein strands unravel, they begin to form bonds with one another and they create this network, this protein network.
That protein network is what captures the carbon dioxide that the yeast releases and that allows the dough to both grow while also holding its shape. The strength and the structure of our bread is fully reliant on tension between these two opposing qualities, these two opposing needs. In order to build that tension in a way that brings strength to the bread, it has to be constantly balanced with rest.
The gluten will let you know when it's starting to get tired. If you don't give it time to rest, then it will just fall apart. It will start to break down on you.
This is something that I think so many of our communities really can learn from right now. That tension is good, that our differences, that diversity in our communities is our source of strength. When these differences rub up against one another and they help expand our understanding of the people around us, our differing needs, our differing convictions, our differing desires, our differing hopes, that can be a source of strength in our communities.
Also, we need to understand when it's time to step away and take time to rest before leaning into those differences even further. I love that bread then is itself this element that Jesus gives us as the sign of our unity in Christ, because it is this picture of our differences coming together and making us one even in our difference.
Laura Dugger: (32:23 - 32:39)
All of this from bread, it's just incredible. Then I even think you write about temperature and scoring the bread. Is there anything else?
We won't get to cover all of it, but any other scientific findings that have been really exciting?
Kendall Vanderslice: (32:40 - 33:33)
I think there is so much in bread. I like to say that bread is incredibly simple and infinitely complex. It's made of four basic ingredients, but it can be mixed together in myriad ways.
A baker can commit their entire lives to learning about bread, and they will still have more to learn. We'll never be able to cover it all. I think there's room for endless exploration as far as digging into all that bread has to teach us.
My hope is that this book, Bake and Pray, helps to start to illuminate some of the ways that we see God teaching us through the many different steps in the bread-baking process. I also hope that others will start to get into this practice of baking, and through the practice of baking, they themselves will be able to start to see some of the beauty that God reveals through bread.
Laura Dugger: (33:34 - 34:38)
I just wanted to let you know there are now multiple ways to give when you visit thesavvysauce.com. We now have a donation button on our website, and you can find it under the Donate page, which is under the tab entitled Support. Our mailing address is also provided if you would prefer to save us the processing fee and send a check that is tax deductible.
Either way, you'll be supporting the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and helping us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. Make sure you visit thesavvysauce.com today. Thanks for your support.
Well, and Kendall, you also have a unique take. You spent years as a ballet dancer, and even with your books, you're just writing about the connection beyond, like you said, just our intellect and our minds to the Lord, but using our whole bodies to glorify God. Can you share some more ways that we can use our bodies to bake and pray and glorify God?
Kendall Vanderslice: (34:38 - 39:09)
Yeah, so one of the things that I love when I'm first teaching people about this idea of praying with your body, it is ironic. The whole concept of praying with your body is to try and get us out of our minds and into our bodies. But the idea of praying with our body can feel like a very sort of cerebral or like, you know, the sort of thing that doesn't quite make sense.
And so, the way that I like to help people first get started is through the practice of a breath prayer. So, a breath prayer is a practice of repeating a line of scripture or poetry with every inhale and every exhale. And so, one of the ones that I love to start with is my soul finds rest in God alone, drawn from the Psalms.
And so, as you inhale, you repeat my soul finds rest. And as you exhale in God alone. And so, when I'm guiding others through this bake and pray practice, I have a start by just closing our eyes and I will lead us in this rhythm of breathing and of repeating this line again and again and again.
And then from there, I encourage the group to start to mix up their dough while repeating this line with every inhale and exhale. And I think it helps us to see how our breath, our breath itself becomes, you know, these words of scripture so ingrain themselves in our breathing that we then understand our breathing itself as an offering of prayer to God. And then the movements of our bodies through this rhythm of breathing becomes an offering of prayer to God.
And then we realize that the words themselves are not even necessary, that we can offer, you know, the movements of mixing bread dough, but also of gardening, of knitting, of cooking, of playing with our children, of raking leaves, that all of these things can be ways to offer our movements to God as prayer and to invite God into this practice with us and to pay attention to how God is present in these practices. So, I do hope that, you know, people will take bake and pray and actually bake with it and learn to bake as a form of prayer. But I also love when I hear from potters or I hear from gardeners or I hear from other people that work with their hands regularly who tell me, I read this and I don't think I'm going to start baking, but it has reshaped my understanding of my own, you know, craft and my own vocation.
So, I am excited to hear from others who maybe will take this and say, like, this is how I see this work being a form of prayer. But I first started learning about embodied prayer and practicing it when I got to college. I was in a dance team at my college.
I had grown up as a ballerina. I left the ballet world in high school, and it was a really, really hard. My experience was really wonderful in many ways and really hard in many ways.
I was in the pre-professional ballet world, which is, you know, very, very rigorous, very mentally draining, very physically demanding. And when I realized that I wasn't going to be able to make it professionally, it was just absolutely devastating. It was like my whole world was wrapped around this.
And so, then when I got to college, I was invited to be a part of this dance company. But the dance company was for women who had experienced sort of the ballet world in the way that I had, and who were looking for healing and to understand that our dance could be a form of worship and a form of prayer. And when I first started, I thought that the whole concept was really strange.
You know, I was I did not understand. I was so grateful to have this very just affirming community that I was dancing with. It was really it was the first time that I had been, you know, affirmed in my body and affirmed as a dancer and not just, you know, told all the things that were wrong with me.
But still, I was like, this is a really strange concept that as we're dancing, we're somehow praying. And it really was something that I had to practice again and again and again to understand and to really feel. And so, if someone is listening to this and thinking like this sounds like a really strange concept, I encourage you to just try it.
And it might take a few tries. Maybe try using the liturgies that are in the book to help get you into that practice. And then I hope that as you practice, either praying through baking or through gardening or what have you, that you will just get to experience the ways that God's present with you.
And then that will transform your understanding of your craft.
Laura Dugger: (39:09 - 39:20)
Thanks for sharing that. It's important for us to understand that we are embodied beings. And that points to that awesome truth that God with us, that Jesus was embodied.
Kendall Vanderslice: (39:21 - 39:22)
Absolutely.
Laura Dugger: (39:22 - 39:31)
But then, OK, so in your most recent book, Bake and Pray, what's one recipe that you're especially excited about?
Kendall Vanderslice: (39:31 - 41:04)
You know, we are just emerging from the season of Advent and Christmas, and those are some of my favorite recipes in the book. One that is so delicious, that is it is a Christmas recipe. It is the Moravian sugar cake, but Moravians do eat the sugar cake all year round.
So, it is kind of a classical Christmas recipe. But here at the Moravian bakeries here in North Carolina, you can get them all year round. So Moravian baked goods are an early Protestant tradition. They actually were Protestants before the Protestant Reformation, they like to say. And they're a pretty small denomination here in the United States.
But they're largely focused in here in North Carolina, where I am, and then a little bit in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. But the Moravian baked goods are known for all of their breads have potato in them. And so, some people, you know, there are other recipes that have like a potato, a potato bread or potato rolls.
When you add mashed potato into baked goods, it makes it really, really moist and tender. It holds on to moisture in the baked good much longer than just flour alone. So, the Moravian baked goods all have mashed potato in them.
But the Moravian sugar cake is one where it's this very rich potato bread. And then you put it into a pan, and you poke holes in it, sort of like if you were dimpling focaccia. And then you pour butter and cinnamon sugar on top and bake it.
And it is like it is a mix between sort of coffee cake and bread. And it is so, so, so delicious. I love it.
Laura Dugger: (41:04 - 41:09)
And there is also just a cute little story in there with the history.
Kendall Vanderslice: (41:09 - 41:28)
Oh, yes, absolutely. It is, you know, there's this lore that apparently when men were looking for wives, they would look for women that had thick fingers. Because if they had thick fingers, it meant that they would have bigger dimples in their Moravian sugar cake that would hold bigger pockets of cinnamon and sugar.
Laura Dugger: (41:28 - 41:42)
I love that. I thought that was so funny. Well, Kendall, what are some of the most creative ways that you've been able to pair bread and generosity together to minister to others?
Kendall Vanderslice: (41:43 - 43:24)
Yeah, one of the things that I am doing right now is, you know, I'm on the road several weeks of the year leading bread baking workshops in churches all over the country. And I love, love, love that part of my work. But in the last year, I started to really crave a closer connection with my community here in Durham, North Carolina.
But I am traveling the country and telling other people about how to connect to home and how to connect to their communities. And that work keeps me from being able to connect to my own home and community. And so, I decided that when I am home, I want to have a more intentional way of feeding the people immediately around me.
And so, I have this practice on Fridays of bread for friends and neighbors. And so, I'll tell, I'll send out an email to friends and neighbors on Monday and tell them, you know, here's what I'm baking this week if I'm in town. And then they let me know what they want.
And on Fridays, I have this shed in my driveway that I open up and it's got this whole like really fun armoire and that I that I've sort of decorated to be a bread pickup area. And so, on Fridays, my neighbors and my friends all walk over, and they come pick up their bread. And it's just been such a gift to be able to feed my immediate community through bread.
But then also to see and hear them sort of connecting in the driveway as they all come pick up their bread at the same time. And folks who either didn't know one another are starting to connect and find and meet one another. But then also neighbors to realize like, oh, you can get kindle bread, I get kindle bread.
And, you know, it's just so fun to have that very simple point of connection, because it can be feel very easy to feel disconnected from the neighbors that you maybe see all over the place. But just that that time of connection and picking up bread, I think, goes a long way beyond just that particular moment.
Laura Dugger: (43:26 - 43:36)
Generosity is always inspiring. And where can we all go to learn more about edible theology online or all of the other things that you have to offer?
Kendall Vanderslice: (43:37 - 44:05)
You can learn more at my website, kendallvanderslice.com. The website is currently sort of under construction. So, I've got a makeshift website up right now where you can find everything.
And eventually I will have more links to all of the edible theology resources. But you can find everything you need at kendallvanderslice.com. You can learn about my workshops. You can learn about my books. You can learn about curriculum, about retreats that I lead. All of it is right there.
Laura Dugger: (44:06 - 44:24)
Wonderful. We will certainly add links in today's show notes so that it's easy to find. And Kendall, you may be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge.
And so is my final question for you today. What is your savvy sauce?
Kendall Vanderslice: (44:25 - 45:13)
Well, I think for me it is allowing myself to use even the simplest moments in the kitchen as a time for prayer rather than trying to rush through the practice of just seeing food as something I have to eat three times a day and something I have to make for myself. To realize that even something as simple as heating up a pot of soup or slicing some bread and smearing it with butter is still an invitation to thank God for this gift of food and the ability to prepare it. And so, I think that small practice alone can transform the way we relate to food and our bodies, but also to try and slow down and have a moment in our day where we avoid just rushing through and take a little bit more intentionality to appreciate the gifts that God has given us.
Laura Dugger: (45:14 - 45:31)
Well, Kendall, I was so intrigued from the first time that I heard about edible theology. And I really appreciate how you shed light on God's profound spiritual truths that are around us and that we can interact with in everyday life. But you also have such a charming personality.
Kendall Vanderslice: (45:32 - 45:38)
So, thank you for being my guest. Thank you so much for having me. It's been such a delight to be here.
Laura Dugger: (45:39 – 49:21)
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?
It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?
Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?
We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.
We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.
Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.
I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.
I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Apr 21, 2025
Monday Apr 21, 2025
*DISCLAIMER* This episode covers adult topics that are not intended for young ears.
260. Sex After Cancer with Dr. Kris Christiansen
James 1:19 (NIV) My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry,
**Transcription Below**
Questions We Discuss:
- What is common mis-information that you want to set straight as it relates to cancer and sex?
- If someone is walking their own cancer journey right now, what would you advise them to both do and avoid doing so that they can still enjoy the healthiest sex life possible with their spouse?
- What hope do you have to share with people who have battled cancer and still desire to connect intimately with their spouse?
Dr. Kris Christiansen is a board-certified family physician who specializes in sexual medicine. She attended medical school and completed her residency in family medicine at the University of Minnesota. She practiced full spectrum family medicine for 10 years and then pursued additional training to specialize in sexual medicine. She works as a sexual medicine specialist at two different clinics in the twin cities.
Her clinical interests include both male and female sexual dysfunction, and she loves working with individuals and couples to restore an important part of life. Dr. Christiansen is involved with teaching medical students and residents at the University of Minnesota Medical School, and she has presented at multiple local, national, and international medical conferences. She is involved with the International Society for the Study of Women’s Sexual Health (ISSWSH) and serves on committees, collaborates with other experts to publish articles for medical journals, and edits informational articles for the society’s new patient facing website. She is passionate about teaching patients, students, and colleagues about the importance of sexual health and well-being. In her free time, she started her own business called Intimate Focus which provides information and quality products to enhance and restore sexual health and wellness. She also enjoys shopping, hiking, and spending time with her family.
Dr. Kris Christiansen's Website
Previous Episodes featuring Dr. Kris Christiansen on The Savvy Sauce:
215 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part One with Dr. Kris Christiansen
216 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part Two with Dr. Kris Christiansen
Additional Place to Find More Episodes from The Savvy Sauce Related to This Topic:
One-Stop Shop for Marriage and Intimacy Resources
Dr. Kris Christiansen's Recommended Websites for Sexual Health:
International Society for the Study of Women’s Sexual Health
American Urological Association
International Society of Sexual Medicine
Sexual Medicine Society of North America
ISSWSH International Society for the Study of Women's Sexual Health
SMSNA Sexual Medicine Society of North America
ISSM International Society of Sexual Medicine
Find a provider:
For a women's sexual health provider, pelvic floor physical therapist, (non-Christian) sex therapist
ABCST American Board of Christian Sex Therapists (for a Christian sex therapist)
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:22)
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
Leman Property Management Co. has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois.
Visit them today at lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.
Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
Not many people specialize in the same thing as our returning guest for today, Dr. Kris Christiansen. She specializes in sexual medicine, and today she's going to provide clarity, information, and direction for how to maximize sexual pleasure with our spouse after one receives a cancer diagnosis. Here's our chat.
Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Christiansen.
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (1:23 - 1:30)
Well, thank you so much, Laura. We had so much fun last time, and I'm looking forward to this conversation again today.
Laura Dugger: (1:31 - 1:57)
Likewise. I feel the same way. And it really wasn't that long ago that you were on The Savvy Sauce two times, so I'll make sure and link to both of those episodes in the show notes for today.
But hopefully everybody's already well acquainted with you, and that's why we're just kind of diving right into our topic today. So, for starters, how did this topic of sex after cancer become an interest of yours to study?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (2:00 - 2:32)
Well, so Laura, my job as a sexual medicine physician is that I work with both men and women and helping them with their sexual lives when they have problems or whatever. So, cancer is often a big part of that. So, through my journey with work, I've just developed a significant interest in learning how to really care for people to help restore this important part of life.
Laura Dugger: (2:33 - 2:52)
Absolutely, because a lot is taken away when somebody gets that awful diagnosis, and so I'm very grateful for people like you who are experts. But is there any common misinformation that you would like to set straight as it relates to cancer and sex?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (2:55 - 6:42)
Well, interesting you say that, because there is so much misinformation out there just about sex in general. And then when we throw cancer in on top of that, it just makes it even more complicated. So, I think a common fear that people experience when they get that diagnosis that they hope they never hear, the C word, is that it's going to have a significant impact on their sexual intimacy.
And you know what, it can, but that doesn't mean that that chapter in life is closed. We just have to remember that sexual intimacy is much, much broader than just intercourse. So, if we can refer to this as PIV sex, penis in vagina sex, many people view it as kind of an all or none thing.
If they can't have vaginal intercourse or that PIV sex, then they don't want anything at all. Unfortunately, that just rules out or shuts out so much of sexual intimacy that God has intended for us. We may not be able to engage in the same activities for a time or even long term, but that doesn't mean that we can't connect.
So, if we try to remember that intimacy, sexual intimacy is all about giving and receiving pleasure, then there are so many more opportunities. So, we have to get beyond the fact that sexual intimacy, sexual intercourse is just vaginal intercourse because it's not. It's giving and receiving pleasure.
And however people want to connect or comfortable connecting, that they can still enjoy a very fruitful sex life. The other thing that is misunderstood and misconceptions is estrogen, vaginal estrogen, especially. Because, well, all women who enter menopause and you're in menopause for the rest of your life do experience some changes.
And it's so common that women experience the genital urinary syndrome of menopause. That's vaginal atrophy, or when the tissues get drier and thinner and there can be tearing and pain as well as bleeding and decreased sensation, decreased sensitivity. These things are common with aging, but oftentimes cancer treatments emphasize that or accelerate it or make it even worse.
And vaginal estrogen is really, really safe. It does not cause cancer. And most of the studies show that even in women who have breast cancer, that it doesn't cause recurrence.
So vaginal estrogen, being so safe, can really save our vaginas. And we're talking about vaginal health and bladder health. It's not just about sex, but it helps keep our bodies functioning properly and minimizing pain and discomfort.
So, if a woman is diagnosed with breast cancer and she's on treatment, then obviously we have to talk to the oncologist, make sure they're okay with that. But we get more and more studies showing it's safety and it's definitely effective and can help keep our tissues young.
Laura Dugger: (6:42 - 7:25)
This is really helpful and brand new information to me. So someone, like you used that example, if they have breast cancer diagnosis and there's different types, but if they're doing the treatment where perhaps they go into early menopause or they have a hysterectomy or remove their ovaries and they even have an estrogen blocker so that they're not producing estrogen, for that type, you're still saying as long as you're working with the oncologist for that personal client, even in those situations, vaginal estrogen, which would be, I'm assuming, more of a cream or something you insert to the vagina, is that right? That that would be safe?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (7:25 - 10:55)
So, where it gets a little gray is if the woman is taking an aromatase inhibitor, which is the estrogen blocker. So, it pretty much wipes all estrogen out of her system. There's a little more risk there.
So most definitely we need to double check with the oncologist. But it often comes down to quality of life. I have a patient who, she was diagnosed with breast cancer, I believe, in her early 60s.
And she came to me at the sexual medicine clinic and she was just miserable. I mean, when we think of vaginal dryness, you think of, okay, it's annoying. You use a lubricant, right, and it's going to be just fine.
In the beginning, yes, that's the case. But this genital urinary syndrome of menopause, GSM, gets worse with time, especially with those anti-estrogen treatments. And for this poor woman, she couldn't exercise.
She loved to go hiking. She loved to go skiing. And just any kind of movement was painful.
And we don't think of that. We kind of take it for granted. But for some women who really experience severe side effects of the breast cancer treatments and causing dryness and irritation, it affects everything.
And for her, we tried all the non-hormonal things first. They didn't work. And her oncologist gave us the blessing saying, you know, we tried it.
This is really important to you. Let's give it a try. And so, we've monitored her, and the vaginal estrogen hasn't caused any problems.
So, a couple points on that. With the vaginal estrogen, yes, it comes as a cream. There's a tablet, which is like a little pill with an applicator that you insert in the vagina.
There are vaginal inserts. They look like little caplets that you just insert with the finger. There's a vaginal ring.
But with the localized treatment, it's meant to just act locally, meaning just on the vaginal tissues. And, oh, package insert. So, you know, here we tell patients, vaginal estrogen is safe.
Don't worry. It's not going to cause cancer, heart attack, strokes, or blood clots. But then they go home.
They get their prescription. They open up the patient insert, package insert, and it talks about risks and bad things that can happen and side effects. Unfortunately, the FDA says we have to use the class labeling or the side effects that are associated with systemic estrogen.
And it automatically gets applied to the localized or vaginal estrogen treatments. So, patients go home, they read that, and they think we're lying to them. But, unfortunately, it's just very misleading because we have plenty of studies to show that vaginal estrogen doesn't cause those terrible things.
And it's very safe. So, they just have to trust us. And there are groups and people out there trying to work with the FDA to get that class labeling effect removed because it just scares everybody away from using estrogen, which can be so helpful.
Laura Dugger: (10:57 - 11:04)
Wow, that is helpful. Is there any other common misinformation you want to make sure we don't overlook before we continue on?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (11:05 - 11:29)
Well, I made a few notes here. No, I don't think so. Except that media, television, and all that other stuff that we see out there is so misleading when it comes to sexual intimacy.
Because sex in real life doesn't look like what you see in the movies. Yeah.
Laura Dugger: (11:30 - 11:45)
Great, great point. And so, when somebody does get, like you said, that dreaded C-word diagnosis, what's a common path that they may experience as it affects them sexually?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (11:48 - 14:00)
Well, so, the different cancers are so different and treatments are so different that it's hard to generalize for everybody. But, you know, first thing most people experience is fear. What's this mean for me?
What's this mean for my life, my family? Am I going to be around in five years? So, it's that fear.
And the initial part of that journey is often involved with meeting with lots of doctors, having all the tests, trying to figure out what's going on, what we're going to do. And sexual intimacy often isn't part of that first steps that they take. So, but when things kind of finally settle down, then those questions start popping up.
What does this mean? It's important to talk with your cancer journey, your cancer team, the oncology team to find out what's going on. And it's important to ask all these questions because doctors really aren't very good about asking about sexual health and what that means to you.
Oncologists, generally speaking, they want to treat the cancer and their job is done when the cancer is treated, under control, gone, whatever. And they've done a good job. However, so many of us are just left afterwards saying, okay, thanks, cancer's gone, but now what?
And so, it's a matter of really trying to figure out what's important over time, learning what's going to work and what's not. And know that there are people out there to help you and that want to help you if it's not going as planned. You know, I just want to reiterate that people really need to advocate for themselves and they need to ask questions.
And if they're not getting the answers that they want, don't give up because there are people, organizations, information out there that can be helpful. So rather than just worrying about what's next, seek help.
Laura Dugger: (14:02 - 14:18)
That's really great advice. And I think this may be an appropriate place to pause and just get some of those recommended places. Because if somebody, this is new to them and they don't know where to turn, do you have any places or websites off the top of your mind that you would recommend?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (14:20 - 15:41)
Well, so cancer.org, the American Cancer Society has a lot of resources on there. When it comes to menopause-type symptoms and such, menopause.org is the Menopause Society, which has a lot of information. And a website called PROSAYLA, it's P-R-O-S-A-Y-L-A.com, is a website that's managed by ISHWISH.
We've got all these acronyms. The International Society for the Study of Women's Sexual Health. So that is my go-to.
Okay, so that's the organization where there's so much research and science and such happening. And the PROSAYLA.org or prosayla.com, either one works, is a website where there are several articles written by experts in the field. So, these are articles backed by science.
It's not just somebody's opinion or somebody's blog. And I know there's an article on there about sex or cancer and sexuality. So, some generalities and some other references on that site too.
Laura Dugger: (15:42 - 15:51)
Okay, that is super helpful information. We'll make sure and add links to those places as well. Anything else that you want to make sure we don't miss?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (15:52 - 17:36)
Well, when we talk about sexual concerns or sexual problems, we always try to approach it from a biopsychosocial aspect. Because those three different entities all play a big role in what works well and what doesn't. So, from the biological section, that's pain, medications, nerve problems, chronic medical problems.
So obviously cancer plays a big role in that. And with cancer treatments and such, pain may be part of that, nausea, fatigue. And so, we just don't feel the same going through these treatments because it's really hard.
As far as the psych bubble, I'm usually referencing a Venn diagram here. Psychological, so when we experience anxiety or depression or performance anxiety, that plays a big role. So, we need to take a step back and realize that what happens up here in our brain has a huge impact on how our bodies function physically.
And then as far as the social aspect, that's our relationships, our interpersonal relationships with our partner, our spouse, with our family and how things are going on at work. A cancer diagnosis and treatment can affect all of those. And so, it's not just a magic pill to improve your libido because if we don't treat all these other things, people continue to struggle with their sexual function.
Laura Dugger: (18:01 - 19:46)
Duplexes, studios and garden style options located in many areas throughout Pekin. In Peoria, a historic downtown location and apartments adjacent to the OSF Medical Center provide excellent choices. Check out their brand-new luxury property in Peoria Heights overlooking the boutique shops and fine dining on Prospect.
And in Morton, they offer a variety of apartment homes with garages, a hot downtown location and now a brand-new high-end complex near Idlewood Park. Their beautiful, spacious apartments with private garages in a quiet but convenient location await you in Washington. And if you're looking in Canton, don't miss Village Square Apartments.
Renters may be excited to learn about their flexible leases, pet-friendly locations and even mini storage units available in some locations. Leman Property Management Co. has a knowledgeable and helpful staff, including several employees with over 30 years working with this reputable company. If you want to become a part of their team, contact them about open office positions.
They're also hiring in their maintenance department, so we invite you to find out why so many people have chosen to make a career with them. Check them out on Facebook today or email their friendly staff at Leasing@LemanProps.com. You can also stop by their website at lemanproperties.com.
That's LEMANproperties.com. Check them out and find your place to call home today.
Also, Dr. Kris, are there any certain cancers or treatments that have the most detrimental impact on a person's sex life?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (19:48 - 23:15)
We know that cancers that affect the breast, for women, but men too get breast cancer, and also the genital area have the biggest impact. We've talked a fair amount about breast cancer. Many of the treatments for breast cancer result in early menopause.
If a woman is premenopausal when this happens, menopause can have a definite impact. The treatments can cause the pain and dryness and decrease sensitivity. Also, if surgery is involved in a mastectomy, it can affect our own body self-image.
From a more physical standpoint too, when we have the mastectomy and those nerves are cut, it decreases the sensitivity. For a lot of women, breast stimulation is really important as part of their sexual play. If now her breasts are gone and she can't feel anything when her husband is touching her breasts, that can be a really hard adjustment.
Any cancers that affect the genital area, uterine cancer, ovarian cancer, or anal rectal cancer for both men and women, and prostate cancer for men, those all have a huge impact. In addition to working with a lot of women who have breast cancer and overcoming and improving those areas, I work with a lot of men who have prostate cancer. Those treatments usually result in erection problems and urinary incontinence, which can be hard to deal with.
Men who have a prostatectomy, so if they have their prostate removed, then 100% of them are going to have erectile dysfunction in the beginning. It's going to take time for those nerves to recover, and it may take up to two years to see that full recovery. In those first few months when I'm working with men, I'm trying to be their cheerleader, saying, don't lose hope, don't give up, because this is going to get better.
It just takes time for those nerves to regrow. In the process, though, it is important to do whatever we can to make sure that that tissue stays healthy. Remember that the penis is actually muscle, muscle tissue, smooth muscle.
If we don't use a muscle for several months, atrophy sets in, which is a bad thing. With atrophy, the penis can shrink in size, and scar tissue potentially can set in, and it just makes that recovery less optimal than what it would have been. Trying to maintain the blood flow during those first few months or first year is really helpful.
Just to help maintain the blood flow and the oxygen to help keep the tissues healthy, so when the tenders do recover as best as they're going to, we get the best outcome.
Laura Dugger: (23:16 - 23:36)
This may be an ignorant question, but then if erectile issues are present during that first time period, but it's crucial to have the blood flow to that area, what can men do to increase blood flow there, even if erection is difficult or impossible?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (23:36 - 25:01)
That's a great question. Taking a medication like Viagra or Cialis. Cialis is my favorite because it stays in the system for a good 36 to 48 hours every time you take it.
If you're just taking a low dose every day, it just encourages a little bit of that blood flow every day. Using a vacuum device, which I just happen to have one right here, looks like this. A penis goes inside the cylinder, we create a vacuum or suction, and it pulls the blood flow in.
It's not the most sexy thing, but using it and using the vacuum device several times a week just to get that blood flow going is a very helpful way to keep the tissues healthy. Getting an erection with the vacuum doesn't get those arousal-type feelings, so it looks a little weird, but it does work. For men who want to use this for sexual activity, you can get the erection within the tube, and then it comes with these tight rings that are stretched over the edge of the cylinder.
Once you get the full erection within the tube, you slide that ring off to maintain the erection.
Laura Dugger: (25:04 - 25:14)
That's incredible just to pause and think of God's grace and these inventions and how incredible that there are solutions. Please continue, but I find that encouraging.
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (25:16 - 27:39)
There are all kinds of encouraging things, but if you're in the middle of this journey, it can be sometimes hard to keep going when you're not getting the results that you want to. But we believe in a big God, and he created sexual intimacy, and it's a gift. Other ways to help manage erectile dysfunction and a couple other show-and-tell things here.
This medication is called Muse. The actual medication is a pellet that comes preloaded in this applicator. You insert it in the tip of the penis, the medication gets absorbed, and 10 minutes later, magic happens.
I don't prescribe this very often because it's really, really expensive, a little harder to find. But the advantage to this medication is that it doesn't need the nerves to work, whereas the medications like Viagra and Cialis, they need the nerves. Guys usually kind of turn white when I pull this out.
For our listeners, I'm holding an insulin syringe and needle. There is such a treatment where you can actually inject a tiny amount of medicine directly into the penis, and it will give you an erection. I tell men that with the pills like Viagra and Cialis, just in general with ED, it works in about 60% of men.
We can get this to work, the injections to work, in 90-95%. It's such a tiny needle that men say it feels like a poke or a pinch once they get past that initial shock that they think is going to hurt. The usual response is, oh, that wasn't so bad, and it's very effective.
This can work within four to six weeks, so whenever your surgeon says it's okay to engage in sexual activity again, this will work. Then last but not least is a penile implant. That's surgery, and that you have to wait at least a year, if not two, after the prostate surgery.
That works in 99.99%. Wow.
Laura Dugger: (27:40 - 27:56)
We were focusing a lot on men for that one. Is there any medication or any other injections or anything like that for women, other than the vaginal cream or different ways to get estrogen in the vagina?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (27:58 - 31:15)
Yes, we've got all kinds of treatments. If a woman has breast cancer, or for whatever reason we want to avoid hormones as much as possible, then generally we're starting with a vaginal moisturizer, which is different than a lubricant. A lubricant is just for sexual activity and just to make things slipperier and feel better.
That often helps in the beginning, but as the GSM or the atrophy continues, the lubricant isn't enough. A moisturizer, think of like a facial moisturizer or a moisturizer for your hand, in order for it to work, you have to use it regularly, which is probably at least three times a week. These moisturizers can come in forms of a liquid that gets injected.
They're little capsules that you can insert. Reveri is a hyaluronic acid suppository, which you insert in the vagina and over time that can be really helpful. One of my favorites is this Rosebud Everyday Balm.
It's a really nice balm that you can put on the tissues inside the lips and inside the vagina. It's just really, really soothing. Again, you've got to use these things regularly.
It will take a good two months at least to see the full effect, so it doesn't work right away. Just like with the guys where they've got to be patient with the nerves, we have to be persistent and patient with things that can work. A vaginal moisturizer is really helpful.
A lubricant for sexual activity. There are over-the-counter and prescription medications that can help with arousal and orgasm. There are two approved medications for the treatment of low libido in premenopausal women.
One is Addi, which is a pill that you take every day, also known as the pink pill. Another treatment is Vilece, which is an injection. It comes in a pen, so you never see the needle and really don't feel the needle.
You give it to yourself about 45 minutes to an hour before sexual activity. Both of these medications are working on the brain chemistry because the brain is the biggest sex organ in the body. It's the most important sex organ.
It works on the brain chemistry and improving the dopamine and norepinephrine and the good sex positive hormones. Like I said, it's only approved for premenopausal women, but many of us do prescribe it for postmenopausal women. We have studies to show that it's safe and it's effective.
The drug companies didn't go through with all the rigmarole they had to do to get the FDA-approved indication for that. We've got all kinds of tricks up our sleeve.
Laura Dugger: (31:16 - 31:26)
Absolutely. Just piggybacking on that, they wouldn't oftentimes follow through on all those studies, would you say primarily because of financial restraints?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (31:27 - 31:41)
Totally. To get a medication approved for female sexual function, it's multi-million, if not a billion dollars. Studies and everything that needs to be done, it's crazy.
That's why these meds are so expensive.
Laura Dugger: (31:42 - 32:14)
Then you also mentioned earlier bringing in the quality of life. There are so many options to consider, but such a personal basis. I had another question that arose.
You kind of were answering that because this one works with the brain chemistry. I'm thinking the body parts may be functioning and you can do different things to have an erection or be aroused with your genitalia, but how is desire affected with cancer?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (32:16 - 35:03)
It's huge, unfortunately. Again, if we go back to that biopsychosocial model and for everything to work well, everything's got to be working well. If we have pain, of course that drives down desire.
We use the analogy of putting your hand on a hot stove. Pain with sex can hurt just as badly as that. I have women tell me it's 10 out of 10 pain feels like shards of glass.
Obviously, that's not pleasant. If we compare that to putting your hand on a hot stove, why in the world would you want to do that? We've got to take care of the pain.
When it comes to pain, it becomes imprinted in the brain and the body responds by just amplifying that pain. You've got more pain and you have less desire. Part of GSM or surgery or chemotherapy and other treatments, radiation, can affect the nerves.
We don't get those positive sensations and the arousal anymore. There's arousal in the brain as well as arousal in the genital area. If we're not getting that positive feedback that this just isn't fun anymore, it's hard to get enthused about engaging in that.
Sex therapy can be really helpful. Sex therapy isn't going to fix thin tissues, but a sex therapist is very skilled and trained at working with people and working with couples on trying to process this, working through the process and the changes that are happening. Sometimes it is a permanent change in sexual function, so there's grief involved.
Helping to process through some of that is really important. But again, if we take a step back and remember that sexual intimacy is more than just PIV sex, that there are all kinds of ways to be able to give and receive pleasure, as long as each person is comfortable with this. And moving beyond the thinking that, well, if I can't have intercourse, I'm not going to have anything at all, then that may mean you might not have anything at all for the rest of your life.
That makes me sad. We just have to take a step back, work through some of this, because it's a journey, it's a cancer journey, it's an aging journey, and try to make the most of it.
Laura Dugger: (35:04 - 36:32)
I want to make sure that you're up to date with our latest news. We have a new website. You can visit thesavvysauce.com and see all of the latest updates. You may remember Francie Hinrichsen from episode 132, where we talked about pursuing our God-given dreams. She is the amazing businesswoman who has carefully designed a brand-new website for Savvy Sauce Charities, and we are thrilled with the final product. So, I hope you check it out.
There you're going to find all of our podcasts, now with show notes and transcriptions listed, a scrapbook of various previous guests, and an easy place to join our email list to receive monthly encouragement and questions to ask your loved ones so that you can have your own practical chats for intentional living. You will also be able to access our donation button or our mailing address for sending checks that are tax deductible so that you can support the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and help us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. So, make sure you visit thesavvysauce.com.
What are some of those examples for someone if they can't have PIV sex anymore? What are ways that you encourage continuing to build intimacy and a knowing of one another and offering and receiving pleasure?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (36:34 - 41:17)
Well, starting with making sure each person is on the same page as far as what they're comfortable with. Okay? Communication is key.
To be able to talk about what you want, what you desire, what your needs are, and listening to your partner say that same thing, trying to make no judgments and not forcing anybody into anything, but just so that we can help understand each other. And when it comes to actual giving and receiving pleasure, whether that's with manual stimulation, with your hands, with your fingers, or if you have a massager, oral stimulation, using a vibrator. And a vibrator can be really helpful for women in menopause, women dealing with cancer treatments, and also for men if they need a little extra help with the stimulation because their nerves aren't working so well.
A vibrator, using it together in the context of giving and receiving pleasure can help, just help with the response, help with the enjoyment, and make it a little more fun, as long as everybody's okay with that. Using a lubricant is really important. And a good lubricant, you want to use a good lubricant because some of the more common ones, unfortunately, have ingredients in them that can actually hurt or irritate.
And like KY and Astroglide, sorry to name names here, but they're basic water-based lubricants, have either glycerin, parabens, or propylene glycol in them, and those can irritate, so we want to try to avoid those. A silicone-based lubricant doesn't have those preservatives, and it stays slippery longer. Where we have to be careful with that is that if you're using a silicone tool, otherwise known as a vibrator, you don't want to use those together because it can ruin the tool.
And if the man is struggling with ED, using too much, especially of a silicone lubricant, can make it too slippery. And too slippery is not so good for him. Oil-based lubricants, they're very nice, except if you're using condoms, it will degrade the condom and create other problems, potentially.
Other ways to stimulate, manually, orally, and when women have pain with intercourse, I'm going to bring in another show-and-tell here, the pain is often coming from the vulva, not so much in the vagina. We talk about vaginal dryness and vaginal atrophy, but the part that's most sensitive is often just right inside the little lips here. And so, if we have terrible pain with penetration, we want to avoid that.
However, the whole surrounding vulvar area is very rich in nerves, can be very much stimulated, and it can feel really good, however each person is comfortable stimulating that area. And another fun fact is that this entire structure is the clitoris. You know, when we think of the clitoris, we think of the glands, this tiny little magic button right here, which, by the way, has 10,000 nerve endings in it.
It's incredible. But the legs, the legs are the cruise of the clitoris, as well as the bulbs. They come down on either side of the vagina.
So, the vagina is here. However, this part of the clitoris can easily be stimulated, so the legs of the clitoris can be easily stimulated, just inside the labia majora, or the outer lips. So, using a vibrator here can be really pleasurable, and you're avoiding the part that hurts.
So, stimulating externally the clitoris, the labia, and wherever else feels good can be very fun. And so, if you try to approach it may be like a game, making it fun and exploring each other's bodies so that you can really figure out ways to make the other person feel good or experience pleasure without causing pain.
Laura Dugger: (41:18 - 41:43)
That's so great. And like you had mentioned, if they go see a Christian sex therapist, they would say the same thing as you to stop when there is pain, because it just makes it worse over time. And so, I love that you've given us other options, if that is the case.
Is there ever a time where orgasm is no longer possible after cancer?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (41:46 - 43:14)
It's possible. Yes. Depending on the cancer and the treatment, that it can make it really difficult or even impossible to get there.
But that's where we want to not focus on orgasm as the ultimate goal, because if we engage in sexual activity with orgasm as the ultimate goal, your brain's not going to let you go there, whether it's the male or the female, either one, the brain is the biggest sex organ in the body. Just trying to go for the gold just won't let you get there. So, you have to relax and enjoy the journey regardless.
So even if the cancer or the treatment didn't necessarily affect orgasm or if it's just our brains, my encouragement is to approach a sexual encounter as an experience. Enjoy the experience. It's not a performance.
We don't want to perform because then we get in our head, and we get nervous and our muscles all tighten up. So, we don't want to perform. We want to enjoy the experience, and it can be very pleasurable.
Even if orgasm isn't part of the picture anymore, it doesn't mean you can't have fun and can't connect because you can.
Laura Dugger: (43:15 - 43:25)
But then I guess also to offer the hope, if I ask it a different way, are there times that orgasm is still possible after a cancer diagnosis?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (43:27 - 44:01)
Absolutely. We always have hope. We always have hope.
Just because you're diagnosed with cancer doesn't mean you're not going to be able to engage in PIV sex or be able to experience an orgasm because that's always a possibility. Don't focus on just getting to the big orgasm. You want to slow down, enjoy the journey, and oftentimes it will come.
There are medications that help with blood flow, that help with arousal and orgasm, and sometimes they can be helpful. Sometimes they're not, but usually it doesn't hurt to try them.
Laura Dugger: (44:02 - 44:26)
There you go. That's a very helpful reminder. It's a piece of the puzzle, not the whole thing.
But if someone right now is walking through their own cancer journey, what else would you advise them both to do and to avoid doing so that they can still enjoy the healthiest sex life possible with their spouse?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (44:29 - 47:19)
That's going to involve several pieces. One, first and foremost, maintain the communication about wants and desires, what hurts, what doesn't, what can we do, what do you want to try tonight? Maintaining the communication.
It's much better to prevent problems like the vaginal dryness and pain than to try to treat it after you've been dealing with it for years sometimes, or even months. If you have, say, breast cancer, just getting in the habit of using one of those vaginal moisturizers from the get-go even before the dryness starts can help prevent problems. Seeing a pelvic floor physical therapist can be really, really helpful.
A pelvic floor physical therapist is a physical therapist who specializes in these pelvic floor muscles that help support everything on the inside. And so if these muscles are too tight, causes pain, and if they're already too tight, doing tangles is the last thing that you want to do, because sometimes it means being able to relax them. Or women who have, who need pelvic radiation, say for uterine cancer, the gynecologic oncologist is usually really good about giving you a vaginal dilator and to use it, but they're not always really good at telling you exactly how to use it, how frequently and how long, so be sure and ask.
Because again, we want to maintain the integrity of the tissues, because it's better to maintain them than try to get it back. That's often quite hard. For guys, especially with prostate cancer, it means participating in that, we call it penile rehabilitation.
So, it's basically physical therapy for the penis. You know, its muscle, so we want to keep that muscle healthy and to help maintain healthy tissues. And just trying to be as good to ourselves as we can, giving ourselves and our partners grace when we need it, because it's a journey and it's not an easy one.
But we believe in a big God and he's there to help us through this and he delights when husband and wife can unite as one, whatever that looks like. And it makes him happy and he's there to try to keep this going for us.
Laura Dugger: (47:21 - 47:40)
And you may have already answered this question with that, but I love how you're always encouraging and gentle and full of hope. So, any other hope that you want to share with anyone who's battled cancer or is in the midst of their journey, but they're still desiring to connect intimately with their spouse?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (47:47 - 48:33)
Sometimes it means asking for help. So, for finding a provider, whether that's a therapist, a gynecologist, a sexual medicine provider, or even your pastor counselor to help you through this. In the show notes, we'll put in websites where you can find a provider because not everybody is educated.
Hardly anybody's educated on this, unfortunately. But there are people out there throughout the country, throughout the world, where you can find to help guide you on this journey. Don't suffer in silence.
We're here to help. So be sure to reach out so we can help you.
Laura Dugger: (48:33 - 48:50)
That's so good, Dr. Christiansen. And are there any other proactive measures that all of us can take to set us up for a healthy sex life into aging or any diagnoses that we may get in the future?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (48:53 - 50:38)
Well, treating our body like a temple, like God says. We have to take good care of ourselves. And just in general, going for your preventative visits and checking your cholesterol and your blood sugar and your blood pressure and screening for cancer so we can prevent them or catch them really early.
And it's so much easier to treat. But things like smoking and diabetes and being overweight and high blood pressure, high cholesterol, they impact sexual function very negatively, especially smoking. Guys are still surprised when I tell them, or I show them a picture of a cigarette with ashes that are kind of wilting off the end.
This is your penis. This is what happens with smoking. Okay.
So quitting smoking. And in women, we have those same little blood vessels and nerves that men do. And so not taking care of ourselves as far as weight, exercise and diabetes and all that stuff, that affects our sexual function, too.
So just making sure that we take a proactive stance on just taking really good care of our medical and our mental health because that's so important. And our spiritual health. Can't forget that, too.
Yeah. Just, you know, taking care of ourselves because aging does impact sexual function. As we get older, our endurance isn't quite what it used to be.
Certainly not as flexible as we used to be. Things kind of hurt. Achy joints and whatever.
So, the more we can take care of ourselves, the more we can enjoy that sexual intimacy, which does involve a little bit of physical exertion.
Laura Dugger: (50:39 - 51:03)
Absolutely. Well, you've shared a lot of places where we can go to seek help. But I would love to know where we can continue to learn from you or a website where people can find out more of your offerings because you mentioned not many people are educated in this field or on this topic, but you are a great resource.
So where would you direct all of us after this chat?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (51:05 - 52:23)
Well, I started my own business called Intimate Focus, Intimate-Focus.com. Where my goal is to offer education and quality products that people can use to help equip them and enhance sexual intimacy. As part of my clinical career where I see patients, we'd often talk about using a good lubricant or getting a vibrator to help with those nerves that just aren't quite as effective anymore.
And so many times they told me they were just not comfortable going to an adult store or they didn't want to purchase them on Amazon because it could be a shared account and kids or whatever may see what they're ordering. So, this is a private and secure site and I don't even know how to sell your email so don't worry, that's not going to happen. Where you can purchase good quality products, I vet them out myself to make sure that they don't contain the ingredients that I encourage women to avoid and no pictures with nudity or anything like that because I want it to be a comfortable space or at least as comfortable as we can make it for everybody.
Laura Dugger: (52:24 - 52:43)
Wonderful. Well, I'll certainly link that in the show notes as well. And Dr. Christiansen, you are already a friend of The Savvy Sauce, so you know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (52:46 - 53:15)
Well, you know, James in the Bible is a very practical kind of guy and I love his advice that we should all be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry. And if we were all able to do that or at least just a little more of that, I think our world would be a much better place to live.
Laura Dugger: (53:16 - 53:42)
This is so good. I cannot hear that verse enough and I just truly look so forward to the times that I get to spend with you. You are such a calming presence full of wisdom.
That's what we prayed for before we had the recording begin for today. And I am just overflowing with gratitude. So, thank you, Dr. Christiansen, for all that you've shared. Thank you so much for being my returning guest.
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (53:43 - 53:48)
Well, thank you, Laura. This has been great. It's an honor to be on your show.
Laura Dugger: (53:50 - 57:32)
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?
It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?
Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?
We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.
We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.
Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.
I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.
I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.