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4 days ago
4 days ago
Top Ten from 2024: #10 Stewarding Technology for More Intentional Relationships with Joey Odom
Proverbs 14:1 NLT “A wise woman builds her home, but a foolish woman tears it down with her own hands.”
The transcription for this episode can be located on the original episode: 228. Stewarding Technology for More Intentional Relationships with Joey
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
- Will you explain the habit loop for how habits work and share how Aro fits into that?
- What are the awesome, relational impacts you are seeing, whether you planned for those or not?
- Will you share a few stories to illustrate the changes Aro is making in people's lives?
Joey Odom is the Co-Founder of Aro. He is a natural storyteller and a dynamic leader known for his ability to inspire and foster deep connections with others. Joey's experience with technology as a husband and dad led him to help create Aro alongside Co-Founder Heath Wilson.
Follow Aro: Website, Instagram, and Podcast
Other Technology Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce:
Mastering Technology so it Does Not Master You with Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd
Tech and Parenting with Molly DeFrank
Technology and Parenting with Arlene Pellicane
Tech-Savvy Family with Paul Asay of The Plugged In Staff
Thank You to Our Sponsor: BELAY (Text SAVVY to 55123 before June 30th, 2025 to receive your amazing, limited-time, special offer!!!)
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website.
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
Monday May 26, 2025
Monday May 26, 2025
264. Simple Ideas for Incorporating Art with Children and Teens with Courtney Sanford
Colossians 3:23 NLT "Work willingly at whatever you do, as though you were working for the Lord rather than for people."
**Transcription Below**
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
- Can you give us an overview of the seven major forms of art and give an example of ways our children can engage with each?
- What are the best art supplies to have on hand?
- As our children grow, why is this helpful in the teen years to have a healthy way to express ourselves and our ideas?
Courtney Sanford is a dedicated wife, and mother who triumphantly homeschooled her three children. With one pursuing a career in orthodontics, another just finishing a master's degree while working in higher education, and the youngest studying computer science at Regent University, Courtney's commitment to their education has yielded remarkable success.
Passionate about nurturing creativity and self-expression, she guides students through captivating art classes, exploring the intersection of imagination and skill. With her background as a graphic designer and experience in studio art, Courtney embarked on a new adventure as an art teacher.
As a multitasking mom, author, artist, teacher, and adventurer, Courtney embodies the spirit of embracing life's opportunities and fostering a love for learning and artistic expression.
Beyond her love for education, Courtney has an insatiable wanderlust. She finds joy in traversing the globe, hosting art retreats, and volunteering at Spiritual Twist Productions: both painting sets, and serving on the board of directors. When time permits, Courtney indulges in spring snow skiing, hiking in exotic locations, and leisurely walks with her dog, Zoey.
Delightful Art Co. was born out of a time when life gave Courtney a handful of lemons, and she creatively transformed those lemons into refreshing lemonade. The Covid shutdown rather forcefully prompted a major shift from in-person art classes to online classes.
Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage
Other Episodes Mentioned:
202 Simple Ways to Connect with Our Kids And Enjoy Breaks with Beth Rosenbleeth (Days with Grey)
223 Journey and Learnings as Former Second Lady of the United States with Karen Pence
Continue the conversation with us on Facebook, Instagram or our website.
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
*Transcription*
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:36)
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, WinShape Marriage.
Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage, and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org. That's W-I-N-S-H-A-P-E marriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Courtney Sanford is my guest today, and she's an amazing artist and teacher and author, and I'm just so excited to share this conversation. If you're like me and you're ready for summer and your rhythm changes with your kids, she's going to share some super practical tips for incorporating art and beauty into our homes.
And I think that you're going to conclude this conversation by knowing where to begin and understanding why it matters. Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Courtney.
Courtney Sanford:
Thanks for having me.
Laura Dugger:
I'm so excited to hear more about your story, so will you share what has led you into the work that you get to do today?
Courtney Sanford: (1:37 - 4:20)
I sure do like to share that story. I didn't start off as a homeschooler. I didn't imagine that that would be where my life went, but I was always a creative person.
I was a graphic designer, and I worked in the Performing Arts Center, and I got to do lots of fun design for shows. Then along came kids. I actually enjoyed dropping them off at school and going to Target, and I was okay with that.
We didn't do public school because the school near me didn't look safe, and we had lived near Columbine High School and thought it was just a beautiful, beautiful school. And when we left Colorado, we thought, oh, isn't it sad that our kids won't go to school there? And then just about a month later, the whole Columbine shooting happened, and so we were kind of traumatized by all of that.
And then when I saw the school that my precious five-year-old would go to, it didn't look safe, and so we sent them to a private school. So here we are spending a lot of money, having high expectations, and the kids were doing all worksheets all the time, and they started to dread going to school, and they didn't love learning, and the excitement of learning just kind of drained out of them. And so we looked into other options and decided that homeschooling would be the way to go, and I found the classical model and just loved the way that sounded, and we tried it, and it worked, and the little lights just came back on in their eyes, and they started to love learning again.
And I just found my people, and I just learned everything I could about homeschooling, and I just poured myself into it wholeheartedly as unto the Lord. And had a great time, and I just loved my time with my kids, and I felt like it was successful, and I encouraged other people to do it, but I wasn't really sure that it worked until they got into college and they turned out to be successful, thriving humans, and we're really proud of them. One will be a doctor in about a month.
He's about to graduate. He has a wife and a little girl, and then my second one has her MBA, and she works for a Christian college where she leads trips, and she's getting ready to take a group to Paris and London, and so she kind of ministers to students through that, and then my youngest is still in school staying to be a software developer. So now I can confidently say it was worth all the energy that I put into it.
It was hard work, probably the hardest thing I've ever done, but so worth it.
Laura Dugger: (4:21 - 4:40)
That's incredible, and I love hearing the success story where your children are now, but you really also inspired them with beauty and art in their learning and growing up time, and I'm curious, are there any personal lessons that the Lord has taught you through art?
Courtney Sanford: (4:41 - 6:32)
Oh, goodness. Yeah, I think my desire was to make learning interactive because I saw what they were doing in the private school, which was sit in a chair all day and do your worksheets, and it was just worksheet after worksheet after worksheet and then a quiz, and then you get graded, and so I was thinking if I'm going to pull them out, I've got to do better than that, and so that was my standard, and I was going to beat that standard every day, and so I pulled in art because that's what I knew, so if we were learning about an animal, we would draw the animal. If we were learning about a continent, we would draw the continent until we could draw it from memory, and I really learned with them. I did not have a great elementary education or even high school education, so I would learn this stuff, and then I would think of creative ways to get them involved with it, so a lot of times it was drawing.
It could be painting. It could be making things out of clay. We used to make things out of Rice Krispie Treats, and then they could take it to their co-op group.
Well, it was a classical conversations group, but they do presentations, and so we made a Mayan temple out of Rice Krispie Treats, and we would make volcanoes, and then they could take it to their friends and share it with them and tell them about it, so anything I could do that would get us out of the chair using our hands and using our senses and think, you know, how can I incorporate all five senses, and that just made learning so much more fun for them and for me, and so a lot of it was art. Some of it was science.
Anytime I could incorporate a sense of play into what they were learning, I could see that they would learn so much more.
Laura Dugger: (6:32 - 6:55)
I love that, trying to incorporate all five senses, especially. That gets some ideas coming, but can you even back it up, and because you're an artist, will you give us an overview of the seven major forms of art, and can you give us examples as parents for ways that we can engage our children with each of those?
Courtney Sanford: (6:56 - 10:58)
Oh, sure. Let me think. All right, so drawing, of course, you can draw what you see, so when I teach students to draw, I do a progression, so we'll draw from line art, and you can find line art anywhere.
It might be in a children's book, so using the library was key for me, so I'd get a laundry basket, and I would go to the library with an index card of what we'd be studying, and I would grab all kinds of books related to that, so when you come home, you get out a kid's book. If you see a good line drawing, say you're studying a lizard, if you see a good line drawing, draw from that. They could even trace it to start with, so you draw from the line drawing, then once they get really confident with that, you go to drawing from photos, and then you go to drawing from real life, so maybe you have a fish tank.
Maybe there's a fish in the fish tank, and you could draw from that or draw things in your yard, so that is how I break down drawing for them, and it could be years. You could draw from line art for years before you go to drawing from photos, and then to drawing from real life, and drawing's great for learning to memorize things. For painting, painting's just fun, and so I like to go to the kitchen table every afternoon and paint what you see, so you start off with the younger kids.
You could start with color and markers and fill in the areas, and then you can teach them how to shade using painting. Sculpture is also fun with kids. I like air-dry clay, and I like Sculpey clay.
I like to get a one-pound block of Sculpey clay and teach them the basic forms, like roll out a snake, do your hands together. Those of you who are listening, you can't see my hands, but I am making a sphere with imaginary clay. These are really good for developing their fine motor skills, too.
We also make the letters out of roll-out snakes and form your letters. That will really help if they're reversing letters. It takes a while to build the whole alphabet, so maybe you do three or four letters a day.
You work on it a couple times a week. It might take a month to make the whole alphabet, but that can be one goal, to get them working in three dimensions. We usually do additive sculpture, like adding on, and you can use found objects to make sculptures.
One time, my son took apart a pen. I rearranged the pieces into a human shape, and it was lovely. Getting them thinking in three dimensions is related to sculpture.
Carving, I don't like to do until they're old enough to be safe with a knife, but once they are, especially the boys love to go outside in the yard and get a log. They spend a lot of time carving spoons. Just a simple shape they can hold in their mind and then carve it is a good activity.
It keeps their little hands busy, too, if you want to read aloud to them and you don't mind a little mess in the house, they can carve. You can also carve out of a bar of soap as well. For that, that's a subtractive sculpture technique.
Let's see. That's the three main ones, drawing, painting, sculpture. I know film is one.
Film, I don't really incorporate much into my homeschool, except we will occasionally watch a movie about history. That has gotten me into trouble a few times because some of those movies that I think are going to be historic turn out to have racy scenes in them, and I'll have to jump up and get in front of the TV or cough really loud. But there are some good films that you can watch together as a family.
That's about as far as I went with film.
Laura Dugger: (10:59 - 11:19)
I would, if you don't mind me interrupting there, too. I feel like that's one that our girls have actually begun to develop on their own, where our eldest daughter once wanted a video camera, so she got the old-school video camera. They're making their own movies, and I've seen that as a form of creative, artistic play.
Courtney Sanford: (11:20 - 11:49)
Oh, that's fabulous. Yes, so when my kids were little, we didn't even have phones or video cameras on the phones, so that wasn't an option. When we first started homeschooling, our TV died, and so we did not even have a TV for years.
We just decided not to replace it, which forced us into audiobooks and reading aloud and then just playing outside instead and reading books. So that was a blessing.
Laura Dugger: (11:49 - 12:03)
I love that because that's one of the other forms. That was new to me, that literature is an art form. Sorry, I sidetracked you because we still have literature, architecture, theater, and music.
Courtney Sanford: (12:04 - 14:20)
Yeah, I think the best thing that we did for our kids, of course, I love teaching them to write using Andrew Pudewa’s method with IEW. It's kind of imitative writing, so you learn to imitate good writers. But also, my husband read aloud to the kids every single night.
That was his time with him. He gave me a break, and he would read for hours. He loved it.
The kids loved it. And he would choose classics or funny things, you know, science fiction. Probably not the books that I would choose.
I would choose classics and things related to what we were studying, but he chose what he wanted to read. So I would read aloud in the afternoons, and we would do audiobooks like Story of the World and all the Jim Weiss readings. And then he would read aloud at night.
And just whatever he wanted to choose, he would read aloud. And I think hearing good language produces good speakers and good writers. So he gets about 50 percent of the credit for the success of the kids, I think, for just reading aloud every night.
It was such a great thing to do for the kids. And then the last one, architecture. I do incorporate architecture when I'm teaching about a culture.
So, if we're doing art history or history, we'll look at the buildings. So, of course, you do that with ancient Egypt. You look at the pyramids.
When you're talking Old Testament times, you look at the tents. And then as I go through art history with the high schoolers, I'll point out more and more like neoclassical, of course, comes from the ancient Greeks, but it's come to symbolize power and authority. And that's why we see it in government buildings.
So, my degree is graphic design, but it was in the School of Architecture. So, I had a lot of history of architecture and I appreciate it. And so I'm always pointing that out to my kids.
And I do that in my class, in my art history class. I always incorporate the architecture just as a part of understanding a culture.
Laura Dugger: (14:21 - 14:29)
I love that. And was there anything specific that you did with your kids for encouraging music or also theater?
Courtney Sanford: (14:30 - 15:29)
Oh, yeah. One thing I wish I had done more of was kinder music. I don't know why we didn't do that much kinder music, but now I'm learning more about it.
I wish I had done more of that. And I did put them in piano lessons. One wanted to do violin.
So, they had a few years of learning the basics of music, and then they really got into theater. We have a great Christian youth theater nearby. And so that was a really good experience.
In their Christian youth theater, they would sing praise and worship songs before and during and after a play. They would be praying for the audience and singing worship songs in addition to the singing on the stage. And that whole experience was really good for them.
Even my quietest kid got a big role in a play one time, and he had to memorize a lot of lines and sing in front of people. It's just such a great experience for them.
Laura Dugger: (15:30 - 15:57)
I would think so. Even if they don't choose something that we would consider a very artistic career, I can see why all of this is still beneficial. That leads me to another question for you.
Regardless of the way that all of us parents listening are choosing to educate our children, why is it still beneficial for all of us to incorporate art into our homes and into our parenting?
Courtney Sanford: (15:58 - 21:59)
That's a great question. So, the first line of the Bible says God created. So, the first thing we learn about God is that he was creative.
He created everything. And then just a few lines later, it says then he created man in his own image. So that tells me that we were created to be creative, to create.
Now, he doesn't let us create stuff out of nothing like him, which is probably for our own good. That would be a mess. But we can create things out of what he created.
And there is a study done by George Land. And there's a video on YouTube of George Land giving a talk about this creativity study that he did. And he created a test for NASA to help them find creative engineers when they were trying to get to the moon.
And they used it to study creativity in children. And they tested five-year-olds. So, they found a group of 1,600 five-year-olds who were in school.
And when they tested them at five years old, 98% of them tested as creative geniuses. So, their plan was to go every five years and test them again just to see what was going on. So, they went back after five years.
The kids are now 10. And it dropped down to like 27%. They went back another five years when the kids were 15, and it was down to about 17%.
And then they were so depressed, they stopped testing them because they could see they began as very creative. So, we're created creative. And a lot of moms will say, yes, I can see that in my children.
But something happens. And this was all in school. Something happened during school that taught them to not be creative.
So, the school teaches the kids to be obedient, to sit still, and to get the same outcome from every kid. Right? There's an expected answer on every test.
And you're to try to get the answer that the teacher wants. That's not creative. So, the first thing to do to preserve their creativity is don't send them to school.
That's the safest bet. And then when you do homeschool them, which I think is the best environment for them, don't do what they do in school. To bring them home and to go to all this trouble just to do the same thing that they're doing in school is not worth the trouble.
So, you've got to not do what they're doing in school. And so, for me, that meant don't do worksheets, make the content interactive. So, I did rely on curriculum, but I didn't rely on the curriculum to be the teacher.
So, I get the content from the curriculum, and then I make it interactive using artistic, creative skills so that they can be creative. And I don't teach it out of them. So, if you have young kids, that's good news.
They're already creative. You just have to don't teach it out of them. If your kids are older and maybe they've been in school, then you might have to like undo some of that training and set up some experiences where you ask them or even like in my classes, I'll set up a challenge.
And I expect everyone's to be different because everybody's going to do it a little bit more creatively in their way. And so, at the end of class, instead of like calling out the answers to see if everybody got the same thing, they're holding up what they did and telling me what they were thinking. And everybody's is different.
And then I really praise the ones who did something different. Maybe they changed the colors. Maybe they put glasses on Mona Lisa.
You know, maybe they gave her a cat to hold. So, I reward thinking outside the box. Now to to pour in beauty, and I think I might have heard this from Charlotte Mason, beauty in, beauty out.
So, you've got to load them with beauty. Now, I think that we were naturally drawn to beauty and people will argue with me about this. They'll say, well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
But I betcha I could find something that's beautiful and do a survey. And I betcha I could get 100% of people to say, yes, that's beautiful. And I could find something else, maybe a Hindu goddess sculpture.
And I could find something that 100% people would say that is not beautiful. And so, I think that ingrained in some of us because we're created by God, I think we have a sense of appreciating beauty. I do think that it gets taught out of a lot of people.
So, with my kids, I show them a lot of beauty. And this can be as simple as get a coffee table book from the secondhand bookstore on art and put it on your coffee table. Get books from the library and have lots of beautiful things to look at.
And so, when I now when I was teaching my own kids, this is kind of a fly by the seat of my pants. Make it up as I go. Now that they've left home and I can think about it, I'm putting together books that are a little bit more thoughtful.
So, in my books, you will see I've chosen a piece of art that is beautiful and I will pair it with the lesson. And then I'll give you an art activity. So, for example, in Into the Woods, you'll see I've chosen a beautiful piece of art and I paired it with a poem, which is another piece of beauty.
Yes. And then I'll give you an art lesson so that they can get creative with it as well. So, it is this hard to pull it together.
So that's why I'm making books to help parents. So, you have something beautiful and something to do with it. And so, that's how I pour in beauty to give a beauty in beauty out.
Laura Dugger: (21:59 - 22:36)
I love that so much. And just even holding this resource, it is so beautiful. There's so much to it.
When it arrived, our daughters were delighted to go through it and to dive in and get to learn. But I'm just thinking many listeners are fellow homeschool parents and also many are not. But I don't want them to be discouraged because I'm even thinking of your courses or if they do intentional art in the evenings or on weekends or summer break and winter break.
There are still ways for all of us to incorporate this.
Courtney Sanford: (22:36 - 24:28)
Yes, for sure. Yeah. Even so, my mom, I was public school.
And of course, the word hadn't been invented back then, but my mom appreciates art and poetry and she would always have art books on the coffee table. And I would just stop and, you know, in my free time, flip through the pages. And those images stuck with me my whole life.
She had one that had a Monet on the cover of the Field of Red Poppies. And that was just ingrained in my mind as a piece of beauty. So just something as simple as putting it out on your coffee table.
She also took us to museums whenever we traveled. And she didn't make a big lesson out of it, but I was exposed to beautiful buildings. You know, most museums are in beautiful buildings.
You see the beautiful architecture. And I was exposed to a lot of art that way. So, that was that totally goes with which with summer vacations and your vacations to, you know, make an effort to see a gallery or an art museum when you're traveling.
That makes a big difference. It'll make an impression on them. And of course, the books you could do in the summer.
We have summer classes and we have an art retreat that might not line up with school because it's in May. But the books you could for sure add on. Hopefully someday we'll have evening classes so that you could go to school.
We've got some this coming year that will start at four o'clock. So, hopefully some kids can go to school and come home and join an art class. So, we're working on getting it out as we as I get teachers willing to.
Most of my teachers are homeschool moms, too. And by the end of the day, they're tired. So, I've got a few.
I've got a young lady who's just graduating and she's going to do some late afternoon ones for us next year. So pretty excited about that.
Laura Dugger: (24:28 - 25:04)
I love that. And then even thinking of the beauty and beauty out stepping outdoors. There's so much beauty in God's creation and so much change depending on where you live throughout the seasons.
But I love how you also brought up the library, because anytime I'm trying to learn something new, that's my first go to is put books on hold at the library. And so, if we're wanting to know what to add to our library cart just to get us started into this, can you share books that you recommend, both yours and others that you think would be good additions?
Courtney Sanford: (25:05 - 26:19)
Oh, that's a good question. Yes, there are. I love to think about the biographies of artists.
And if so, if you're studying ancient history, you could look up a biography on Giotto. And they're still tell the stories in such a nice, kid friendly way. Like there's the story of Giotto.
He was actually watching the sheep. And while he was out in the fields, he would draw on the sides of rocks like big rocks. But you get another rock and you would draw on the sides of rocks.
And another artist was walking through one day and he saw these drawings on the rocks. He was like, wow, you're really talented. Come with me.
I'll make you an apprentice. And those stories are just they're fun to read together and hear those kinds of stories. And of course, the Usborne books of art are beautiful and they often have projects for the kids to do.
I can't think of any specific ones, but I do love a short paperback on the particular artists. And so, I kind of line those up along with the period in history that we're studying.
Laura Dugger: (26:20 - 26:32)
That's great. And even you're making me think of picture book biographies on artists. We've always enjoyed those as well.
Obviously, the illustrations are fantastic, too, but the storylines are so interesting.
Courtney Sanford: (26:33 - 27:23)
Yes. So, I just grab whatever they have. I had a big laundry basket.
And and I know card and I just grab whatever I could find and sometimes let the kids choose. And sometimes I would choose. If you're going with geography, you can find beautiful photos of the different areas.
See the landscapes or the sunsets. And that can through photography. And you can really get to know a place through beautiful photographs.
I like that part, too. And then that might inspire a pastel drawing of a landscape. Maybe it's a beautiful sunset you could recreate with pastels.
So, photography books are really inspirational, too.
Laura Dugger: (27:23 - 28:10)
It's a great idea. And circling back, you had mentioned Andrew Pudewa earlier in our conversation. And I remember learning from him that with writing, the worst way we can teach our children is to say just free write, just write something down or here's a prompt to finish this sentence because better writing comes through imitating.
And so, you've even mentioned tracing is a great way to start. That's not cheating in art if you're not stealing credit from them. But if you're just practicing and tracing, this is a way to imitate.
And so, I'm wondering, do you have any other cautions for ways that may be the wrong way to introduce our kids to art?
Courtney Sanford: (28:11 - 30:50)
I agree that. Yeah, you can get writer's block. What I find funny is that some people are so afraid to imitate artists.
But if I were teaching piano, I would teach your kid how to play something by Bach in which he would learn what Bach did. And nobody would say I'm stealing from Bach. You know, and you learn to play Beethoven by playing Beethoven and you you learn to reproduce those pieces of music.
I do the same thing in art. We look at what the masters did and we'll copy it in order to learn what they knew. And that way we build.
We're like standing on the shoulders of giants. So, we don't want every kid to have to start with inventing the wheel themselves. We'd never get very far.
We want to learn what the masters knew and then build on that. So, I do a lot of imitation. And then as the students ready, I let them know you are free to change this or to experiment with it.
So just last week we were drawing and painting red poppies and learning about Georgia O'Keeffe. And so, I said we can do an imitation of her poppy. And I'll show you step by step how to reproduce her poppy.
And in doing that, we're going to cause us to look more closely at it and study her blends. Like she would blend from yellow to orange to red in every petal. And we can study that technique.
And then as we do it and we practice it, we look more closely at hers and it kind of becomes a part of us. And then we'll find another flower and we'll use that same technique on a flower that we choose. Or maybe it's a flower we make up and we take that technique and we can apply it.
And it's a much better way to learn than trying to learn it yourself without looking at what the masters did. So, I think that I think I pulled a lot of that from Andrew Pudewa. The idea of I'm going to assist you until you say I got this.
I can do it from here. So, I do assist until they get it. And then I always say whenever you're ready, as soon as you're ready, change it and make it your own or do your own thing.
And because turning them loose too soon can break their confidence. So, you want to build them up until they can confidently experiment on their own.
Laura Dugger: (30:51 - 32:34)
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Well, and as parents, once we're past the resistance to maybe invest some of our time or our money or allow the mess into our home, but if we push past through that and we're ready to get started, I'd love to go over some practical tips.
So, Courtney, first, just what are some great art supplies to have on hand?
Courtney Sanford: (32:36 - 37:13)
A number two pencil and some Crayola markers you probably already have. Those are great tools. I like to have my kids work in an art journal, and you can get these real inexpensive at Michael's.
It'll say on the cover, mixed media art Journal, and they come in different sizes. I kind of like the big ones, and that will allow you to use paint, pencil, and marker or anything you want. If it says sketchbook, it's not going to hold up to paint very well.
So that's why I get the mixed media paper. So, I start with the art journal, and then I like to make that journal be their book on a subject. So right now, I'm doing ancient history with some kids, and so they are making their own book about ancient history.
So, every week we'll do a drawing or a painting or watercolor on a lesson in ancient history. And so, each piece is not a masterpiece to hang on the wall. Each piece is a part of the story in their book.
That takes all the pressure off. So, they don't see this as, I don't know if this is going to be good enough to hang on the wall. That's not even a question.
It's a part of the story in your book. They can also take some notes. They can show their grandparents and review the topic by presenting it to their grandparents and showing off their book.
And then you can collect their books and put them on a shelf. It's not all over the house making you crazy. And then you can see from year to year how their skills have improved.
So, I kind of like every year I like pick a topic to be the subject of our art journal. So, I call it arts integrated learning. So, I'm pairing an academic subject with art for that year.
So, it could be poetry. It could be history. It could be science.
Whatever you pick. That's what you'll add to your art journal with.
Pencils. I like blending tools too. There are some people call them stompies.
For those of you who are watching. Here's one. It's just rolled up newspaper, but you can buy these at Michael's.
They're really cheap. But it takes a drawing to the next level. You can just blend things out and shade things really lovely.
Mark Kistler does some videos and teaches you how to. He'll go shade, shade, shade. And so that's a good way to start.
And it really elevates a drawing and it gives them a lot of confidence. And then of course the good eraser. The book drawing with children is a really good one for our parents to read and then teach from in that book.
They suggest you have them draw with markers so that they don't spend an hour erasing. If you have someone who's a perfectionist, they will make one mark and spend 20 minutes erasing it. And so, if you go right to drawing with markers, that's gonna teach them to make a good mark first and then keep going and not spend half an hour erasing.
When I get to age nine or 10, I like to use acrylic paints, but I only buy four colors of paint and then I make them mix all the other colors. So, we use yellow, magenta, blue, and white. Those are like the colors in your printer.
Cyan, magenta, and yellow are the ones in your printer. And those colors can make all the other colors. Now your printer has black, but I don't give kids black.
Instead of black, they could make purple or brown or dark color. So, you know, you teach them how to mix the colors that they want. They'll learn to mix it because they want green or they want purple, or they want brown.
And then they develop a sense of color theory, and you don't even have to teach it. They'll figure it out because they want those colors. If they find, if, if you don't feel confident in that, you can buy craft colors of the specific colors, especially brown.
That's a hard one to mix. But I do like the coverage of acrylic paints. I like watercolors too.
That's a little bit easier to get into. You just take it slow and practice a lot. So that's really all you need.
It's pretty simple.
Laura Dugger: (37:14 - 37:27)
Well, and I'm wondering too, even with the acrylic paint at that age, once they're older, that one, I'm assuming can stain. So are there any tips that you have for containing the mess?
Courtney Sanford: (37:28 - 38:32)
Yes, I get, and they're a little bit hard to find. So go to Amazon and find a, a tablecloth that is plastic on one side and felt on the other side. I forget what you call it, but there'll be like picnic tables, tablecloths.
And the plastic ones are going to drive you crazy because they're too thin. So, if it's flannel backed, it's a little bit thicker. So I get a white one at the beginning of the year.
And that comes out anytime we do clay or paint, and it goes over the kitchen table and I don't worry about cleaning it. You just let it dry, fold it up. And I put mine in the China cabinet right there by the table.
And then anytime we do something messy, that tablecloth comes out and, and then just fold the mess back up in it. And it works, it works really great to, and then you might, if you're, if you're a neat freak, maybe plan on buying one at the beginning of every school year so that you get clean slates. And then the paint that gets onto the tablecloth is actually lovely and it'll be pretty next time you get it out.
Laura Dugger: (38:33 - 39:11)
Oh, I love that. That's a genius tip. I appreciate that for coming indoors because in the summer, I guess we could take it outside depending on where we live.
But then what about any hacks for finding the time to do this? And I guess I'm thinking back to a previous episode with Beth Rosenbleeth. She's the one who started Days with Grey and she would talk about different art prompts that she would set out for her children in the morning for a variety of ages.
But were there any things that kind of required minimal time from you, but had maximum return for your kids?
Courtney Sanford: (39:11 - 41:06)
Yeah, that's a good point. I had, I wouldn't say I had a strict schedule, but I had a pattern to my days. And the time after lunch was a good time to do messy things in the kitchen because we were in the kitchen anyway.
And as I could clean up lunch and start dinner, I could be in the kitchen with them and they could be creative at the kitchen table with minimum involvement from me. One of my best afternoons was we had the microscopes out to do something specific and I left it out as I was cooking chili. And as I cut up each ingredient, I would cut a thin slice for them to look at under the microscope.
And so they were looking at a bell pepper and a red pepper and celery and tomato. And they were so, they so enjoyed that and I was able to cook dinner at the same time, which was fabulous. And that turned, it was probably like a 15-minute science lesson into like four hours of discovering things under the microscope.
So that element of play and you can do that with your art supplies too. Like I'll demonstrate a technique and then leave it out. I'll turn my attention to cooking dinner while they see what else they can do with it.
And, um, you know, I'll give them a few tips. Like, um, if you mix these three colors together, you're going to make brown and then turn your back and let them discover it for themselves. So, um, I'm a big crock pot person.
And so after lunch would be the time I need to clean up lunch and put something in the crock pot. So that would be a good time for me to get them started on art or science and, um, and then turn my back and let them have that, um, that discovery time without me hovering or telling them what to do or something.
Laura Dugger: (41:06 - 41:22)
Oh, that's a great rhythm. I love these ideas. And then I kind of want to go in chunks of age.
So, thinking of little kids, how would you define the difference between a piece of art and a craft?
Courtney Sanford: (41:23 - 43:41)
Yeah, a craft is going to be something where the focus is on following directions and that's important. They need to learn how to follow directions. And so we would do, especially around the holidays, I might do a craft and we all follow directions.
Um, a piece of art is going to be where they're, they all come out different. They're allowed to play and express themselves. Um, for me personally, if I'm doing a craft when I'm done, I think, oh, I could make 50 of these and sell them.
If it's an art, when I'm done with a piece of art, like one of these paintings behind me, when I'm done with that, I'm thinking I could never do that again. That took so much out of me. I'm exhausted.
A little piece of my soul is in that that's art. That's the difference. Um, so I don't sell my paintings because there's a little piece of my soul in, um, my husband makes fun of me for that.
He's like, you could just sell your paintings. They're like, what? They're, they're like my babies.
I can't, I can't part with them. It took so much out of me to create them. Um, but a craft, yeah, I'll just give away things that are, that I just followed directions for, um, in terms of kids, younger kids will enjoy crafts, but getting to high school, they recognize it as slave labor and they don't want to do that.
They are in what the classical education people call the, the, um, poetic stage, you know, they want to express themselves and they want to be unique. I think this is why they get tattoos. The tattoo is a way of saying this is who I am.
This is what it means to me. I'm unique. Um, so I think if we don't teach them to express themselves in art, they're going to get tattoos.
So that might encourage moms to, to give them the skills so that they can express themselves. You know, they need to be able to write poetry or write songs or paint a painting or do a drawing. There's that need inside of us to do that that God put in us.
And if they don't have an outlet, then they're going to find something like tattoos or something that we don't want them to be doing. Yeah. I mean, some of my kids are tattooed.
It's not bad.
Laura Dugger: (43:42 - 44:25)
Well, and you've kind of answered a follow-up question I had because we talked about little kids, but I'm thinking of teens. So going back, my background is in marriage and family therapy, and we would encourage everyone that journaling is a free form of therapy. But I think of art as the same way.
And there's even studies that show when you're engaged in something artistic, the critical side of your brain goes offline. So you can't think negative thoughts while you're creating something new, but with teens, there's that added benefit of getting to express themselves. So is there anything else with art that you see as basically free therapy for adolescents?
Courtney Sanford: (44:26 - 46:54)
Oh, sure. I do see it a lot. I experienced it because I started my business because of the shutdown and because I was teaching in person and then I had to switch to online teaching.
And so, the group that I had moved online and I figured out how to do it and got a little bit better at it. And then that summer I offered a class for adults. These were directors and I was in classical conversations at the time.
And so a whole bunch of teachers are expected to teach Western cultural history without a lot of background. And so some of the moms asked me if I would do my art class for them. And so I had about a group of like 50 adults and we would get on for an hour and a half every day.
And this was at the height of the shutdown when turning on the news, just stresses you out. Going to the grocery store was stressful because people were in masks or they weren't in masks or, you know, we didn't know anything. It was such a stressful time, but that hour and a half that we had together, we, our focus was on discovering a piece of art.
So, we were looking at beautiful things and then we were creating something and that changed our focus from what was going on in the world. And we would just relax, and we'd enjoy it. Having the live class kept our focus on it.
And when I don't have a live class in front of me, I'll be like, oh, I should put the laundry in or I should start dinner and I get distracted. But with that, you know, with other people on zoom, it keeps me focused. And so, we'd have this wonderful hour and a half vacation from the world.
And after it was over, I would just have this sense of peace. And then I'd come down and be like, oh yeah, that's still going on. And it was, it was so good for our mental health.
And, and I get, I hear moms tell me that the hour and a half once a week they spend with me doing art has been such a blessing. Like one student lost her father a year ago and this is helping her. She said she's finally coming out of her depression and she's finding a way to express herself and find beauty again.
And it's, it's been transformative for some students. So, it is a blessing. And I didn't, I didn't read that somewhere.
That's just from my experience. So, I'm a big believer in that.
Laura Dugger: (46:54 - 47:51)
I can see why I think you're bringing up two points. I don't want to miss both with art therapy and then also art in community. So art and community first, I think for all of us at any age, what can we do as this is airing probably when everybody's getting out for summertime, how can we gather others alongside of us for whether it's our kids or us as peers to get to engage in these activities together.
And so, I want to follow up with you on that, but also before I lose my thought, I also want to link back to Karen Pence's episode. She had started art therapy for veterans, I believe, and just incredible. The healing that is possible through this.
So, do you have any thoughts Courtney on ways that we can this summer gather together community at different ages and do something artistic?
Courtney Sanford: (47:51 - 52:15)
That is a good question. So, we have, I have found the online classes are the easiest for people to get to. And it's I get people ask if we can do it in person, but honestly it's hard to get people out or they're busy.
They're doing things in summer. So, we do offer a class online in the summer that's live. We have recorded classes that you could do alone or get a few people together and, do them together.
I have some sampler packs too. So, some of them are just three lessons. You could get some friends together and find, maybe you could find three, three times during the summer to do.
I have like a Vango sampler pack and a couple of short ones that you could just pay for the video and do with your friends or maybe a mother daughter event. Maybe you do the self-paced class with your daughter. And I've had some seniors, like seniors in high school, do a mother daughter class together and just say, this is such a good time for us to spend a little bit of time together, a little bonus time before they go off to college.
During the school year, we have, I have a watercolor artist friends. She lives near me and she's a professional watercolor artist and she does the class called Bible journaling. And that is a beautiful combination of a devotion and a watercolor time together.
Those are hour and a half classes too. And they meet once a week. And we sometimes we'll have grandmas, we'll have high school students, we'll have mother daughter pairs do it together.
And they actually have a little prayer time, a little study of scripture. And then then Kate teaches them step-by-step how to do a beautiful watercolor and incorporate some hand lettering in it. So that's just a beautiful fun time together.
So I highly recommend her class during the school year. If, if a mom could get away, or if you have a high school daughter to do it together, that is a great experience. And then I have a short version of art history that you could do with friends or your high school daughter.
It's called paint your way through marvelous to behold, which is just 12 lessons that goes through. And that's a variety of drawing and painting. If you wanted to do something like that.
So, lots of things, or you can check out the books. And if you feel confident following step-by-step instructions in a book, you could use the book or a combination of videos and books. If you're feeling kind of like you could lead a art group, you could get the cell page video, watch the video and then do, you know, exactly what I said, do that live with a group.
And if you have any art experience doing that, you could get, probably get, I would like invite all the homeschool moms in your co-op group to get together. And I do some, sometimes I'll go to do a mom's group, do a watercolor or I love to do the milkmaid with moms because the milkmaid is this beautiful painting from the Dutch masters of a woman cooking. She's just pouring milk.
I think she's making bread pudding and it's just so beautiful. It's like, what I think I look like homeschooling. I'm wearing like a long gold gown and those suns coming in and everything's perfect.
I'm like, this is the ideal. This is what I think homeschooling is going to look like. And then I kind of use that painting as a launch pad for painting Delft tiles from the period.
And so sometimes I'll, I'll do that with some homeschool moms because I like to encourage homeschool moms. I know it's hard. And I had some mentors when I was homeschooling that I really appreciated.
So, I'm always happy to, to be the support and be able to say it's worth it. Keep going. I know you're driving a crappy car, but it will be worth it.
And so, the sacrifices you make now totally pay off. And you know, before I know it, my son is going to be homeschooling his daughter. She's seven months now, but it's going to fly by, you know, she'll be four before you know it.
And I'll be teaching her how to paint. I suppose.
Laura Dugger: (52:16 - 53:13)
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I don't want to miss what website to direct everyone to. If they want to sign up for one of these classes, where's the best place to follow up?
Courtney Sanford: (53:14 - 54:27)
Go to delightfulartco.com and on that page, you'll see live classes, self-paced classes, summer retreats. I've done adult retreats before. I'd be open to doing it again if people want to.
So, I have, I would call it private retreats. So, if you want to get a group of women together, maybe somebody has a beach house, I'll come and do the art. It could be a one day, two day, or three-day event.
So that's an option. And we have self-paced classes. So, lots of things to look at.
I have a lot of sample classes on the website too. If you want to drop in and see what they're like. I think there's a how to paint Monet's water lilies is on the site.
You can watch that and see what it's like. Some people are afraid to try an online art class, but we all loved Bob Ross, and we watched him. So, if you can imagine saying, Bob, stop, could you do that again?
That's what my classes are like, and I'll be happy to stop and show you again. And then you can hold up your work at the end and I can give you some feedback. So, I'm like the new Bob Ross.
Laura Dugger: (54:27 - 54:46)
There you go. That's wonderful. Thank you for sharing that.
And Courtney, I just have a couple more questions for you. If let's turn it back to parenting. If we want to get started today and we just want next step to get started.
What is an art prompt that we can still try today?
Courtney Sanford: (54:47 - 57:26)
I would look at what you're, what, what are you teaching your kids? So, if you're teaching them, maybe you have a library book on the coffee table that you're studying biology. Pull out one thing from that and draw what you see and reproduce that.
Just one drawing a week. And before you know it, you'll have a whole biology book. So, I like to instead of saying parents, you have to add on another course.
You have to add art to everything else you're doing. Slide it into what you're already doing and it will enhance what they remember about that. And it's not like a whole other subject.
So just use art as a tool to help them remember what you want them to learn anyway. So, anything you want them to teach, if you have a photo or a drawing, have them trace it or draw it. I actually another good way to start is if you have little kids and Bible story time, let them draw what you're reading about.
My son loved to do stick figures. So, I have the whole Bible told in stick figures from when I'm from my youngest kid. And it is fabulous, especially like Sodom and Gomorrah.
And, you know, there's a lot of violent stuff. Boys love that stuff. So, he illustrated a lot of the Old Testament because I read it every morning, and he would just draw what he heard me.
I think I was using the Children's Illustrated Bible. So, he had some things to look at. That's another great way to get started.
Just let them look at the story and draw in their own art journal. So, there's so many fun ways you can use it in every subject. I had a mom tell me she read me an email.
She said, my daughter is just blooming in your classes. I wish every subject could be taught with an art journal and a paint palette. And I replied, we're working on it.
We're we've got we've got Latin and art, science and art, literature and art. There's just so many ways to find inspiration and what you're already studying and find the beauty in that subject. So, in our site, our art and biology course, students do a beautiful watercolor of the DNA strand.
And they draw the cell in watercolor. And it's just beautiful. And it helps them remember it and practices their art skills.
So, it's like a two for one. Think of it as a two for one. Take art and put it in another subject.
Laura Dugger: (57:26 - 57:46)
I love win wins. That sounds amazing. And Courtney, I just have one final question for you today.
We are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so is my final question for you today. What is your savvy sauce?
Courtney Sanford: (57:47 - 58:15)
The beauty, in beauty out, has been kind of my savvy sauce and also as unto the Lord. So, whatever I do, I do as unto the Lord. If I'm homeschooling, I'm teaching biology.
I'm going to do as unto the Lord. I'm not going to hand out a worksheet. I'm going to make it.
I'm going to make it a great experience. So, I would have to say whatever you do, do it wholeheartedly as unto the Lord and not for men.
Laura Dugger: (58:16 - 58:36)
What a great place to end. Courtney, you are so inspiring. You've given us great ideas and kind of confidence to get to put this into practice.
Even if we're not artists like you, we're all created in God's image and therefore can be creative. So, thank you for your time and wisdom today. Thank you so much for being my guest.
Courtney Sanford: (58:37 - 58:40)
You are sure welcome. I had a great time. It's good to talk to you.
Laura Dugger: (58:41 - 1:02:25)
You as well. One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?
It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?
Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?
We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.
We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.
Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.
I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.
I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday May 19, 2025
Monday May 19, 2025
263. Domestic Violence and Abuse: Identifying and Healing from Abusive Relationships with Stacey Womack
Mark 10:27 NKJV "But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
**Transcription Below**
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
- Will you teach us about the various types of abuse?
- How do we respond appropriately and in a Christ-like manner when someone does report abuse?
- What are your views for having biblical reasons for divorce, specifically as it relates to each type of abuse?
Stacey Womack is an award-winning expert in domestic violence from a faith-based perspective. She founded Abuse Recovery Ministry & Services (ARMS) in 1997 and she is a published author and sought after national speaker. Stacey developed and wrote the curriculum used for ARMS programs, including Her Journey for survivors of abuse and Mankind and Virtue for men and women who have used abusive behaviors. She has assisted tens of thousands of people in recovering from both the receiving and giving of abuse. Her passion has grown ARMS, a small grassroots organization, to now having an international reach.
Abuse Recovery Ministry & Services Website
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Grace Catering
Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce:
146 Biblical Response to Emotionally Destructive Relationships with Leslie Vernick
148 Overcoming Evil with Good: Recognizing Spiritual Abuse with Dr. Diane Langberg
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:50)
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
Today's episode includes some thematic material. I want you to be aware before you listen in the presence of little ears.
For anyone who feels like they don't have time to cook, but they still desire to have meals that taste just like grandma's, I can't wait to share more about one of my favorite sponsors, Grace Catering Company. Check them out today at gracecateringcompany.com.
Stacey Womack is my guest today. She is the award-winning expert in domestic violence from a faith-based perspective. She is the founder of Abuse Recovery Ministry and Services, which she will refer to as ARMS, and she's also the author of this practical and helpful resource entitled On the Front Lines of Abuse, Strategies for the Faith Community.
Stacey fearlessly answers questions today about what defines abuse, what steps can we take today to discover if we're in an abusive relationship, what does the Bible have to say about abuse and divorce, and so much more. Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Stacey.
Stacey Womack:
Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here.
Laura Dugger:
Would you mind just starting us off by giving us a current snapshot of your phase of life?
Stacey Womack: (1:52 - 2:48)
Sure. You know, I've been doing this work for 27 years, but actually I grew up in a pastor's home and married young and had my children young. I have six children, and I have my 13th grandchild on the way, and my first great-grandchild is due in December. And in the midst of homeschooling my kids back in the day, God began to speak to me about ministry that he had for me.
And so, this was the door he opened, even though I'm not a survivor of abuse. And back then I never had planned on starting a nonprofit or, you know, having it be the way it is, never planned on having an income off of it. None of that was a part of the plan.
I was just being obedient to what God had called me to do. And so here we are today, 27 years later, providing services nationally and internationally to victims and survivors of abuse and also working with those who use abusive and controlling behaviors.
Laura Dugger: (2:50 - 3:12)
Wow. And abuse is something that's so difficult to understand, and it's a topic that's easy for us to want to avoid. But I appreciate you bringing awareness to this topic that affects more people than we would ever suspect.
So, will you just teach us the various types of abuse?
Stacey Womack: (3:12 - 12:56)
Sure. So, I'll try to go through them fairly briefly for you, but most of the time they only give you a few, but we have eight different areas of abuse that we talk about. So, you know, most people get physical abuse.
That's how most people define domestic violence and abuse is physical, which is all the things from hitting, pushing, slapping, grabbing, strangulation, which is something that's very dangerous. And a person's at risk of dying days and weeks after being strangled, even months after being strangled. So, it's a very serious crime.
Most states it's a felony. But every category has those things that aren't as obvious. So, in physical, it would be like posturing where someone stands up or takes a step towards you, it's right in your space.
The most common form of abuse is psychological, though. This is what is often called emotional abuse by most people. So psychological abuse, I kind of divided into three categories.
The largest one is the crazy making the mind games, the mental coercion, the gaslighting, all those things. And that's very, very hard to explain to people. And it doesn't look like abuse.
It looks like non-memorable conflict oftentimes and gets misdiagnosed that way, I guess you could say. And it's the form of abuse that women say is the hardest to heal from because bruises heal. But the emotional ones that psychological abuse causes can take years and years to heal from.
So also, another big category besides the mind games is the isolation. So, keeping them from friends and family could be outright telling them not to spend time with friends and family, or it could be, you know, allowing them to go spend time with friends and family, but then they pay for it later. So, there's some type of punishment for doing that.
Moving her from place to place, or church to church, to keep her from having any kind of support. So that's very common. And then another category in here, and I'm just keeping them very brief, is stalking behaviors, which stalking should be taken very seriously because 75% of those who commit homicides are stalkers.
So, this is everything from following, showing up uninvited, not leaving when asked, to the use of spyware, which is often free or cheap. So, you know, those air pods, they drop them in people's purses or put them in places in their car or whatever, just so they can follow them where they're going, those types of things. And among our younger generation, a common stalking behavior would be multiple calling and multiple texting.
So, the second closest that comes to emotional abuse would be verbal abuse. And most of us get the types of verbal abuse that are obvious, the yelling, the swearing, the name calling, the, you know, put downs. I mean, things that are really obvious.
And this is a huge category and not well understood because we have all used some verbal abuse in our lives. So, everything down to things that are more subtle, like the silent treatment as a way to control the conversation or sarcasm, which is actually means the tearing of flesh. So, it's not a healthy way to communicate.
There's a little bit of truth to it. That's what makes it funny. But it's always at someone's expense.
And we live in a pretty sarcastic world. And I, myself, can be pretty sarcastic at times after really watch that because it's really not a kind way to communicate. So, again, this is a huge category.
So, we have verbal, psychological, physical, financial, lots of financial control and abusive relationships. Most of our men who are abusive use financial control. So, he's making all the financial decisions.
He's controlling the finances, or he allows her to have some access to finances, but not all by hiding assets and hidden accounts, things like that. Or maybe making her handle all the finances while he goes out and misspends. So, then it's her fault.
And now he has a reason to abuse her. And even once they separate, financial abuse continues by not paying a spousal or child support. So, I tell our women to not depend on that, do what they need to do legally, but not to depend on it because it's very hard to get that money back.
So, we have verbal, psychological, physical, financial, sexual, which people get that one too. Rape, unwanted touch, attacking body parts, making her dress a certain way or not dress a certain way. It could include extreme jealousy, which is, again, goes right back into those stalking behaviors.
So, it's these pornography affairs, sexual name calling or sexual putdowns or sexual jokes. Again, another really big category. So that a lot of times some more subtle things that people don't recognize as being abusive because a lot of people use it, like the sexual name calling or sexual using sexual cuss words.
So, I always have to go through those verbal, psychological, physical, financial, sexual property. We don't always think about property being abusive. But if an abuser can convince his victim that he's dangerous, he never has to be physical.
And so, he might punch the hole right next to your head. I had a woman tell me this. And then he saw the fear in her face, and he said, “What? I didn't even touch you.” But the message was, this is what could happen to you. So, property is not always it can include, but it is not always the breaking of things or throwing things.
It could be slamming doors, slamming hands on the table. But it could also be moving property to make her think she's going crazy. So, she has a place she keeps her keys. He moves them to make her think she's going crazy, that she can't remember where she's putting things anymore.
So, you always have an overlap in an abusive event. It's never just one form of abuse unless it's just psychological and very subtle. But property abuse also includes the use of weapons.
In the groups that we've been doing with men for the more than two decades that we've been working with them, usually they're not using the weapon there. It's the implied threat of use of weapons. So, we had one woman who went to her boyfriend's house, and he came out of his bedroom with a knife and laid it on the table and said, “I just don't know what I'd do if you left me.”
Or we had many guys in the program for tapping knives while they create and continue arguments with their partners. So, it could be any misuse of any property. It could even be gift giving to get her to comply back into the relationship.
So, it's not always what you think of when you think of like guns and knives. It doesn't have to be that way. It can be very subtle.
So then we have spiritual abuse, spiritual abuse. Since we're a faith-based organization, we talk about the misuse of scripture. So, he's using scripture to get her to comply, to get his way.
And God's word is a balance between judgment and love and mercy. And when you remove that love and they're just going with the judgment side of God's word, you are misusing God's word. It's not what God intended for his word.
He did not ever intend for the word to be weaponized against a person, especially in an intimate relationship. So, we talk about the difference between submission and oppression and how they are different from one another in our groups. It's also for our men who attend church regularly.
I always tell pastors, if you've got a man who's coming to you and he's working his way through the church leadership and he's being very humble and he's telling you that he knows he has his issue, but he's concerned for his wife that he's not really being abusive. That she just thinks he's being abusive to her because she's experienced abuse in the past or she has mental health issues or she's cheating on him, which is usually not true. They're doing this to discredit her while they're doing what we call public image management to make themselves look good to the public.
So, they're involved in all kinds of things. It may be on the church council. So, you know, when they tell their church leadership this, it's hard to believe.
It's hard for them to believe when she comes forward and says this is what's actually going on in my relationship because they've not experienced that from him. He's been a great guy around them. So, questioning her theology, her salvation, keeping her from going to church, making her go to church, moving her from church to church, things like that, too.
And then the last one is animal abuse. And of course, we think about harming animals. And of course, when you harm an animal, that is animal abuse.
But in terms of the work we do, it's about using the animal to control the person in some way. And that might include the threat to get rid of it, the threat to harm or the threat to kill or the doing of those things or neglecting, not like not feeding or watering the pet. But it could also be things like getting a pet she's allergic to or afraid of or withholding affection from her while he's being overly affectionate to the pet.
We have lots of women who tell us about that. So, again, it's not about necessarily harming the pet as much as it is about using the pet to gain control. You have to remember that abuse is about power and control and abuse means the misuse of.
So, anything can be misused, not just physical hitting and punching and misuse of our strength, but anything can be misused. And when it's used to gain power and control in an intimate relationship. It's a pattern; that's when you're looking at someone who has an abusive personality.
Laura Dugger: (12:57 - 13:27)
Wow. Thank you for laying that foundation and expanding our definition. It sounds like so many sins, domestic violence can be insidious, and it can usually begin with a very charming spouse who eventually becomes more and more abusive.
So, have you found that people more easily recognize when they're in an abusive relationship or is it surprising and confusing to them?
Stacey Womack: (13:28 - 16:58)
It's mostly confusing and surprising, maybe in that order. You know, since I work with these men, too, there are really great things about them. There's really good qualities I see in them.
And that's what these women fall in love with, these really great qualities. And these men can be extremely charming. And even if you haven't been raised in abuse and you find yourself in an abusive relationship, sometimes it's because you were in a really vulnerable place when you got involved.
And it just felt really good to have somebody come in and be so big and strong and great in your life. Or there's other times guys are just so good at this that they're just believe completely. There's no reason not to believe, right?
I mean, you trust somebody because you expect them to be telling you the truth. So, it usually starts off very subtle and it gradually increases. So, he might start questioning.
So, is that what you're going to wear? Or, you know, well, that's a lot of makeup. Or maybe, you know, telling her that he doesn't agree with something that she agrees with and that maybe her friends and family aren't good for her and maybe she needs to distance herself from them.
We've had women tell us that that happens to them. So, we have a checklist on our website under am I in an abusive relationship, basically. And underneath that, there's actually a PDF that they can print out and check off.
And it usually starts off with things like, are you surprised by his anger? Does his anger scare you? You know, and then we work down to more obvious forms of abuse.
But when a woman goes through that list and it's actually degenerate. So, a male or a female could go through the list. And they could go through it and they could determine, am I experiencing a pattern of these behaviors in my life?
Marriage should be the safest place for you. And when it's not, there's something wrong there. And we do work with women who are abusive.
So, I do want to acknowledge that there are male victims out there. And when they call us, since we don't have a group for them, because perpetrators believe they are the victims. So, if I opened a men's victim group, I would get a room full of perpetrators.
Male victims tend to say very similar things to our female victims and behave in very similar ways that our women behave as well. And so, we refer them out to counselors that we trust. And, you know, and women can be what we call primary aggressors in the relationship.
And they act and talk and say the same kinds of things as our male primary aggressors. And most primary aggressors are male because it just works better for them. They're bigger, they're stronger, they're given privilege that women are not given.
So, it just works better for them. But there are women out there who do that. And then there's those relationships where both parties are using abused.
But one is a primary and one is a secondary. It doesn't make the abuse okay. It doesn't even make it okay when you or I say something or act in a way that disregards or disrespects another person.
That's sin. So, I think that we need to be really honest with the fact that this is a human issue. And that it's okay to come out and say, you know what, I have a problem with this.
And I need help. And that's what we're trying to offer for both the men and the women that we serve.
Laura Dugger: (16:59 - 17:21)
And I'm just simplifying it. But in my mind, when you talk about primary and secondary, it makes me think for that secondary person, just simply hurt people, hurt people. So, is that what you're talking about?
Where they are not the initiators of the abusive behavior, but when they are abused over time, they respond with abusive patterns as well?
Stacey Womack: (17:21 - 19:17)
Yeah, abuse is a learned behavior. So, if they grew up in a home where abuse was present, you know, as much as you don't like some of those negative things that we all get from growing up, we get good things and bad things. We often end up repeating them until we learn something different. And so, some of our women in our secondary aggressors program, you know, have had to fight their entire life to survive.
And sometimes it's just safer to be the aggressor than it is to be the victim. And so, a lot of times when women are using abusive behaviors, it's more about trying to be heard or it's payback. So, they don't really gain power and control from their abuse, not really.
It's usually when they're abusive, the women are just getting payback for what their abuser did. So, one woman, her and her husband had an argument and he's this big guy. And so, to get back at him, we would call this properly anal and psychological.
She took the pillow and rubbed it all over the cat because he's allergic to cats and put the pillow back on the bed so he'd wake up with puffy eyes. It's a very passive form of abuse, but it is a way to get back at him. And then we have those women who just fight back verbally and they can.
I had this little gal, not probably hardly even 100 pounds. She could bring a 200 pound, six foot tall husband to his knees with just her words. And this is a woman who had to fight her entire life.
So, you know, you can see there's times where relationships where there's more. I don't really like the word mutual, but there's they're both using abusive behaviors, but it's the only way they know how to live life. And so, the women come out of this program saying, now I understand that his abuse to me does not excuse my abuse to him.
And I have power to make choices that will bring change to my life. And that's a powerful place to be much more powerful than being a victim.
Laura Dugger: (19:18 - 19:45)
Absolutely. And I think the hope that I'm hearing is when you say abuse is a learned behavior. Does that mean we can learn our way out of it as well?
So, anyone who is in an abusive relationship or is finding if they're listening to this, maybe they find out that they are the abuser, you can learn your way out of it then?
Stacey Womack: (19:45 - 21:27)
You can. It takes a tremendous amount of work. But both the victim and the perpetrator or the survivor, they have to learn new tools, both of them, because we have women who get out of abusive relationships who find themselves right back into another abusive relationship.
The tools that women use in abusive relationships are amazing. The ways that they do things to survive the abuse is absolutely amazing. But those same tools do not serve them well once they're out of abuse.
Some of them get into healthy relationships, but they're still using those old tools that they picked up during the abusive relationship. And so, they come to group a recovery group so that they can heal from that and learn a new way and let go of that pain and hurt and learn behavior so that they can also be healthy in that relationship with that new partner. So, and he also and for the abuser, someone who's like this is they've been the primary aggressor in the relationship and they have a lifetime of picking up belief systems that have given them permission to behave that way.
And that doesn't change in 12 weeks. Programs for those guys and those gals should be long; thirty-six weeks the absolute minimum. I think a year or even two years is better because you need practice to sustain change. We have lots of guys who change, but getting that sustained change takes lots of accountability and lots of hard work.
And it's difficult to do. But we have those stories of couples that make it. There's a lot more that don't make it.
All the men make some changes, but often not enough to save the relationship. So, it varies.
Laura Dugger: (21:27 - 23:38)
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Well, and with your programs, what are some of the things that you do offer for someone who finds themselves in an abusive relationship?
Stacey Womack: (23:40 - 28:08)
Yeah, so our largest program is called Her Journey and it's a victim survivor recovery program. So, it doesn't matter what form of abuse you experienced or are experiencing. It could be years ago even.
And we have this, it's a 15 week program, but we lead it year-round so you can just start immediately. It's one of the things that we found out as we've been doing this national campaign is that we're the only ones that we've found that are free. It's a free program.
We have Zoom. So, we have every day of the week covered. If we don't have something right in your own state, in your county.
But we're in-person groups in 21 states right now and looking to lead more or teach more leaders how to lead the program in their community, or in their centers, or in their missions. They're often held in churches. It's all confidential.
The women just call in. They don't have to give us their real name. They don't have to give us any information.
They don't want to. We just ask whatever name they use. They keep using the same name so we don't care if they say their name is Minnie Mouse.
That's fine with us. Just so that we can keep track of it for grant purposes. But in that group, it's not a process group.
It's really about hearing God's heart around this issue. And they do get training around domestic violence. But we also go through other topics like dealing with anger, depression and loneliness and just all the different things that happen throughout this process.
Learning how to appropriately boundary set and what to do and what's going to work with an abuser. What's not going to work with an abuser. Those types of things. And so, we found that we just keep it open so the women can join immediately. Because if we don't help them right when they're asking for the help, we'll lose them because the abuser will very quickly work to move them back into the relationship, which is part of the cycle of abuse. And because we want the relationship to work and we want to believe him, we do.
And so, women, you know, leave on average seven times before they leave for good because we don't get into a relationship to see it in. And so, when I talk and train pastors and I had a pastor say, “Well, she's just looking for a way out.” I'm like, “No, that's not true.”
These women do everything, including couples counseling, which is something that does not work when abuse is the issue and power control is the issue. And most pastors that I haven't heard of any seminary that actually does a whole course on domestic violence, they get a little bit of couples counseling and that's it. And even counselors don't get trained in domestic violence.
So, this is only a very small portion of counselors. So, I would tell these women, if you're listening to this now, that they shouldn't do couples counseling, but they should look for a counselor who has 40 hours of victim advocacy training from an advocacy agency and that he needs to go work on his own issues with an agency that deals with domestic abuse intervention. And a lot of times the things that she thinks, or they both think, they need couples counseling for go completely away once he does the work he needs to do.
So, the communication problems, the anger issues, all those things that they think are the cause are no longer an issue. Most of our couples don't even need couples counseling after this because he has learned to love like Jesus loves. That's what we teach is like, what does that mean to be Christlike?
What does that mean to lay your life down? So, but during our time that we work with women or men, secondary or primary aggressors, female or male, we in our groups talk about focusing on that themselves and their relationship with God and not focusing outward because God will take care of that. Sure, pray about it, but release it.
That's God's responsibility. You only have control of this relationship is between yourself and God. And that's where you're going to seek Him about what He's calling you to do in this situation.
And every person's a little bit different. It's not my place to tell someone whether to leave or stay. And we're not here to promote divorce.
And we know the women want their relationships to work. We know they want men to make it to the other side. We do, too, but we cannot make that happen.
So, all we can do is present the information and allow the Holy Spirit to do the work. And the person has to be willing to receive the help.
Laura Dugger: (28:09 - 28:35)
Absolutely. Well, and I even think about how this conversation came about. We had multiple women of different ages, all of them believers, who were reaching out and sharing a little bit of their experience in marriage and sharing some potential abuse.
And I actually reached out to some publicists that I work with and said, “Who would be able to speak to this?” And so that's how we got connected.
Stacey Womack: (28:36 - 28:36)
Yeah.
Laura Dugger: (28:36 - 28:54)
Very much appreciated your book. And as I was reading it, there was one story that was particularly haunting. And it was about a pastor who ended up begging you for training.
So, can you recall what happened?
Stacey Womack: (28:54 - 34:09)
Yeah. You know, a lot of pastors just it's not that they don't care. It's just that they're very uneducated around this.
So even myself, when I first started, I would give people really unhelpful advice before I even began this work because I didn't understand it well. And so, he had encouraged this woman to forgive and go back, which is a typical response. You know, submit more, pray harder.
Those are the kinds of things that a lot of women get from churches. And so, she did. She went home and then he murdered her that night.
And so, this pastor was absolutely heartbroken, as you can imagine, and was calling in and asking, please, please, please train us because we don't want this to ever happen again. You know, and honestly, there are some pastors out there that believe that women should stay in the relationship, even if they are being abused and that God will bless them through their suffering, even if it means death. I don't agree with that.
See, I think that God would never sacrifice a person for the sake of the relationship. But we do as the church sometimes because we're so concerned about the relationship. The relationship is important and God has got a reconciliation and we want reconciliation, too.
But God also tells us the prudent man or woman hides from danger and he cares about us as individuals. And He has called us to live life abundantly, not to just bear it, you know. And so, I think that we need to really look at that.
And being raised as a pastor's daughter that, you know, I was taught that way. So, it was a really it's been really hard, you know, working in the faith communities really struggles with this. And, you know, this idea that, well, a separation might lead to divorce.
But separation is really functional in these relationships because she needs safety so that she can talk, speak the truth from this other person. And she needs time to see whether or not he's willing to actually get the help that he's been promising he'll get. And they need time to see if he can actually work through that.
Or is he just using a program as another controlling behavior to get her to come back into a relationship? If she waits long enough and we usually say six months and he's mad that she's not letting him back home. He goes right back to all the bad behaviors he was doing before.
And he pulls all the money out of the bank and does all these crazy things. And she has her answer, which is heartbreaking. The women are heartbroken over this because they want their relationships to work.
We cannot emphasize that enough to the faith community. These women want their relationships to work and that they did not sign up for this. They did not sign up for these.
They did not say, “Oh, yes, I am agreeing to get married and be abused.” That's how they agreed to. And he made a promise to love and cherish.
And the Bible commands men to love their wives like Christ loves the church and to lay his life down. That means he gives up his way to bless her, that Jesus came to serve, not to be served. So, his role is one of being the lead servant in the relationship.
He should be the first to be serving her. And how do we respond as women? We feel loved and cherished and cared for when that happens.
My husband's so good at this. I have to be careful if I say I'm thirsty, he's up getting me a glass of water. He's so quick to serve.
But this is the kind of behavior that blesses us. And men are surprised that the very thing they want, the respect, honor, all those kinds of things. They get it by doing the very opposite of what they're doing, by giving up their way, by embracing humility.
And humility is hard because it means it's not about being 50-50 or being fair. It's about going 100 percent or more. So, my husband would share because he leads manuscripts with me.
And he says, you know, guys, you know, if Stacy's at 20 percent, then I need to go 180. I need to go in and fill in that gap for her. And there's times I do that for him, too, because unhealthy relationships like that's what we do for women.
But an abusive relationship, that's never what happens. And an abuser has and this is very popular, a narcissistic view of his world. He may not realize that it doesn't mean he has narcissistic personality disorder.
Those guys are very different and they stick out sore thumbs, but they all behave narcissistic, narcissistically, meaning their world revolves around them. So, they want you to manage their emotions. They blame you for when they're unhappy.
And even if you weren't even present, when whatever happened, that he's unhappy that he still blames you for it, which doesn't make sense. It's that crazy making. It's like, “Wow, how am I the cause of this when this happened at work? I don't understand.” You know, so there's all that craziness that goes on.
But, you know, I'm so honored to get to walk alongside men and women in their process of change and their aha moments and their realization that God loves them and that God values them and that they're important and they're regarded. And that because of that, abuse is never OK. It's never OK.
Laura Dugger: (34:10 - 35:21)
The few follow ups with that, then to go back to an earlier point, you're making a connection for me where I'm thinking back to a few episodes. It was one was with Leslie Vernick and one was with Dr. Diane Langberg. So, I can't remember who said this.
I can link to both in the show notes, but it's what you're speaking to that as we study the scriptures and we see Christ likeness and how to become more Christ like and what God really says about these topics. They were pointing out he cares about the individual more than the institution. Yeah.
And so, I think there's a lot of re-education for us in the faith community, unfortunately. But then also two follow up questions. One, as you're talking about narcissism or a narcissistic outlook, is there ever from your experience?
I'm familiar with some of my friends who are in relationships like that or acquaintances that I know. Is there ever hope for the husband who has narcissistic tendencies or personality disorder to repent? Have you ever seen that?
Stacey Womack: (35:21 - 37:16)
Absolutely. We have men who've done a really great job of working away from being self-focused and selfish. That's really what it is.
They read these journals and we make comments on them and they have to come up with the beliefs that gave them permission to behave this way. So, we had one guy and you could just see a selfishness that I always wrote. The belief is I'm most important.
I've read it every on every single journal. And he finally came to group after a few months because I really realize I'm really selfish. And so, as we help them to see this, it begins to change things and they begin to make different choices and try new things.
As someone who has a narcissistic personality disorder, like any personality disorder, those are not medicated. They can't be medicated and it takes a longer time. So, I've had some training on narcissistic personality disorder and I recognize those guys.
Any of those guys generally with personality disorders because they don't see themselves. So, the group laughs at things I say, but they don't understand why they're laughing. And those guys need like seven years of counseling with someone who specializes in narcissistic personality disorder.
If they're willing to do the work that that they can actually make changes. And there's a gentleman who who's travels the country speaking on this. He says that's his favorite group of population he works with.
I can't say the word narcissistic personality disorder men. And he says, you would like this man today. But he had like multiple failed businesses.
He'd been very successful, but they're failing businesses, failing marriage. And he worked with them and you don't work with them the same as just typical counseling. It's not the same because they don't see themselves.
So, we need more people who specialize in that.
Laura Dugger: (37:16 - 38:12)
I agree with you there. And it's just helpful to have that reminder of hope. Even this morning in my quiet time, I was reading in the Gospels and it was Jesus saying and everything he says is true.
That with man, it seems impossible, or it is impossible. But with God, we know that all things are possible. So, appreciate the way you answered that.
And then also a follow up would be we heard that awful story of what happened with the physical safety when you're looking at physical abuse. But then, Stacey, would you recommend wives have the same boundaries? Are they taking time away to physically protect themselves if there's any type of abuse?
If there is financial abuse, let's say, are they given the same recommendations as somebody who is in an emotionally abusive relationship?
Stacey Womack: (38:13 - 40:49)
Well, the emotional abuse is always there. You don't have any other forms of abuse without emotional abuse. So, our women, we talk about boundary setting and different boundaries they can begin trying.
But oftentimes the only boundary that actually works to be able to say for us to be able to make it, you need to go get help. And while you're getting help, we need to be separated so they're not focusing on one another. So not all of our women separate.
Some of the women try to work through it while he's still in the home. My experience is that it slows the process down, extremely slows the process down because they're still focusing on one another. And he's coming home and he's sharing with us how great the program is.
But then he's going home and he's angry and he's taking it out on her. So, it creates some unsafety for her. And I just want to say this because I think a lot of people don't understand that there's physical safety and then there's emotional safety.
And we downplay the emotional safety. But emotional safety is as important as physical safety. So, I have some pastors who think that if we share things like this, that we're going to be making victims.
That's not true. I don't relate to the books that are out there. You know, oh, yeah, I've experienced that.
It's not going to make victims. You either relate to it or you don't. But this emotional safety might mean needing to separate from that person.
Not because you fear their physical abuse when you haven't been physical. But a lot of our women say he's never been physical, but I'm fearful of him. And so in order for her to get some healing and some help while she waits to see whether or not he gets help and she's really hoping he will.
She needs that space. And so, yes, I think that in a lot of scenarios, separation is a key. And then we have some couples where the where the husband does is not willing to do the work he needs to do, but he's not controlling the finances.
So, they remain married but separated for the rest of their lives. Not very many couples can do that because most abusers are going to control finances. So, but that's why I was saying it's not our place to tell a woman to leave or to stay.
That's not our job. It's our job to walk alongside them when they seek God for what they should be doing and what boundaries they should be setting. And they can try a lot of different things before it gets to that point.
And it just there's no easy answer for this.
Laura Dugger: (40:50 - 41:05)
It's very complex. Yes, it's very complex. But even when you say there's a lot of things they could try.
Could you give a few examples or is there a place on your website where they can go to get some ideas and some help for those earlier stages?
Stacey Womack: (41:06 - 43:43)
Well, we talk about this in our journey class again, which is free. You can join at any time in our class on boundaries. And so, it depends on the severity of abuse that's going on.
But most women, when there has been physical abuse, will start off with things like and we talk about a boundary has to have a consequence. Otherwise, it's not really you can't. It doesn't work.
But these men are boundary breakers. So, a boundary would be like saying, if you continue to yell at me and call me names, I'm going to leave and go to my friend's house. So, there's the boundary and there's a consequence for breaking.
But then we also realize when we're talking to them that he may decide at some point he's not going to let you leave. So now he's blocking the door. So, then it might be, you know, if you're going to treat me this way, I'm no longer going to cook meals or do your wash.
And it usually works its way down to I'm no longer going to have sex with you. I'm not going to sleep in the same room with you. And once you get to that point, the only other thing you can do is do a physical separation with the heart to actually reunite.
That's what these women want. And some of our couples have been separated for three years. But the husband is like, let her head home.
And he's doing his work and they're interacting again. But he doesn't move back home for three years because he's committed to giving her whatever space and time she needs to heal. Because he recognizes that he's the one that's caused unsafety.
And so, what is three years if you can have a healthy relationship for the rest of your life? And so that's what we were looking for our men to do. It's like even if you're disappointed, if she's saying, I'm not ready for you to move back.
And you can say, I feel disappointed, but you know what? I get it. And whatever you need, I'm willing to do that.
That's accountability. That's humility. And really, they need to have other men who are mentoring them to hold them accountable.
And again, not a lot of people are taught this. And so having the right mentor even for this is really important. Even a right counselor for them to work with their childhood issues.
But those are some ideas for some boundaries. Boundaries always have to have consequences. But even if a woman gets a protection order or restraining order, most of those are violated.
So, we tell the women be prepared to call the police when he violates it by texting you or by sending you a card with money in it or putting flowers on your car. Or coming to the church service that you put in the restraining order that he wasn't supposed to come to. So, you need to be ready to hold him accountable because the abuser doesn't believe you're going to actually follow through.
Laura Dugger: (43:43 - 44:32)
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Well, and what if somebody is listening right now and they're automatically assuming, well, this isn't happening to anyone I know and it's certainly not happening in our church. What would you like to directly say to them?
Stacey Womack: (44:33 - 45:40)
I'd like to let them know that statistically one in three women experience domestic violence, stalking, or rape by an intimate partner. And the statistics in the church are no less than they are outside of the church. So, every church has families in their church who look like the perfect couple.
When I started leading a group in my own church, I was so shocked. I kept telling myself, stop being shocked when I have another woman privately come up to me and tell me that they were in an abusive relationship because they just, they were involved, and they were just leading Sunday school. And they were, just look like this beautiful family and you would never have known.
There was no way to know that this was actually going on. So, you know, the reality is that it's happening. We're just not aware of it.
It wasn't on my radar before God called me into this work. I didn't think it was affecting my life. I didn't think of much thought.
But the reality is I feel like it's worse now than ever and not necessarily more physical abuse, but just abuse in general, the misuse of things to gain control.
Laura Dugger: (45:42 - 46:18)
Well, and I appreciate the way you helped give a paradigm shift. You offered this on page 36 in your book and you quote saying, “At ARMS, we do not believe God considers domestic violence and abuse an adult issue. Instead, we believe he sees it as child abuse. We are his children.”
So, Stacey, with that in mind, how does this clarify how we can respond appropriately, and in a Christlike manner, when someone does report abuse?
Stacey Womack: (46:20 - 47:51)
Well, I think a lot of times when women actually have the courage to tell you what's going on, it's a very courageous thing to do. She's risking a lot by telling you.
So, we really need to listen carefully and believe her. And I'm thinking about how, you know, that I'm trying to think now. How did you word your question so I can answer it correctly?
If you think about that example you gave, if your child was being beaten, harassed and abused in school and came home crying, you wouldn't just sit in your chair and say, go back and pray harder and win them over by your quiet and gentle spirit. We would go down and we would ask the school, what are you doing about this? Who's doing this and what are you doing about it?
And if they didn't do anything, we wouldn't think twice to remove our child from that environment. But in these situations where you're working with two adults, she may not be ready to leave. She's just sharing with you that this is going on.
She actually is hoping you'll go talk to him so that you'll fix him. But that is not a safe thing for you to do. And she may not realize that.
I tell pastors that all the time. You don't, but you're not going to go to him to check out her story or go talk to him like she's asked you to. Instead, you're going to go, what can we do for you right now?
Let's get you some help. And there'll be a time where we can address things with him. But right now is not that safe time.
So, let's get you connected with an organization that can help you give you the resources that you need to begin your journey of healing and discovering what God wants you to do.
Laura Dugger: (47:52 - 48:07)
That's good. And also, this is a tricky question, but what are your views for having biblical reasons for divorce, specifically as it relates to those types of abuse that you shared with us?
Stacey Womack: (48:08 - 50:27)
Sure. You know, I think God understood that divorce would happen. That's why it got written into the law.
And it says, “Because it was the hardness of hearts.” So, it wasn't God's design. It wasn't the way God wanted it to be, but that there was made allowances for this.
And when people and women are often quoted, God hates divorce. They're not really giving the whole scripture and Malachi in the amplified version. It says, “God hates divorce and marital separation and him who covers his wife, his garment with violence. Therefore, keep a watch on your spirit, that it may be controlled by my spirit, that you deal not treacherously and faithfully with your marriage mate.”
So, we actually got some really good articles that go in depth on the original Hebrew, that Malachi verse was written in there. But, you know, I do believe that someone is breaking the marriage covenant to love, cherish, lay his life down for when they bring abuse to the relationship.
Again, God would wish and hope that we would humble our hearts, not be stiff necked and submit to Him and what he's trying to teach us and grow us in. But He does not force us. And so that leaves women in these situations very little choices if their husband is unwilling to get the help that he needs.
So, I am all for divorce. And I know that that marriage is hard. And my husband and I have been married for 44 years and we've gone through our struggles.
And there are times that I thought this isn't going to work. But you know what? We hung in there because we knew that for us, because it wasn't an abusive situation, that we need to stay in there and work on it.
And we did. And we're so glad we did. So, believe me, I'm not promoting divorce.
I just know that there has to be a place and known for it because of sin in the world. And again, it's heartbreaking and it destroys not just individuals, families, but our society is being destroyed by the breakdown of the family. And abuse is one of the most insidious things.
It starts in the home and it's cyclical. So, it's passed on from one generation to the next.
Laura Dugger: (50:29 - 50:38)
Well, so, Stacey, how can we become more aware of abuse that is happening all around us? And what can we do that's genuinely helpful?
Stacey Womack: (50:40 - 52:13)
Well, I think getting the education, you know, in my book that on the front lines of abuse strategies for the faith community, just a little book. But has a ton of information in it is a good place to start. And I have some do's and don'ts in there.
But, you know, I think that when you might recognize someone's being in an abusive relationship by the way her husband or whatever is speaking to her. But she doesn't see it because most victims would never call themselves a victim of abuse because they don't relate to that at all. That's not how they would define it.
So, I think sometimes just privately sharing with them. No, that behavior was really abusive. And she may not like that.
She might even get upset. But I think just being honest with the fact that this is going on. And I encourage pastors to preach about abuse and really abuse oppression.
And the Bible has a whole lot to say about oppression. There's already sermons out there that they can pull from. I suggest pastors preach on it twice a year.
So, October's domestic violence awareness month. And then maybe run Mother's Day again, not on Mother's Day, but around Mother's Day. Talk about it again, not as a caveat to relationships where it's just mentioned in a sermon, but an actual entire sermon on this issue.
And I can promise you that the church gets the education they need. They don't have to be experts, but they need to know what resources are out there for them and they make it safe. Both men and women will come forward and ask for help.
So, we need just to be a listening ear and care and ask how we can help.
Laura Dugger: (52:14 - 52:29)
I think that's a good practical encouragement that you've shared. And I want to add all of these links in our show notes. So, is there anywhere else that we can go to after this conversation to continue learning from you?
Sure.
Stacey Womack: (52:30 - 53:32)
We have our website that has a ton of information on it, abuserecovery.org. So, there's just so much on there. We have blogs and we have all kinds of information that the faith community can download for free.
Whether you're just in the community or you're a church leader, there's all kinds of things you can download. We have a pastor's packet. There's just we'll give you other books to read that you can do more education around this again.
I know as my father being a pastor, that pastors are busy enough. We're not asking pastors to do more than what they're doing. We're just asking them to be educated and know where they can send their people that's safe, where they're going to get sound and supportive help.
And to just be open to looking at things from a little bit different perspective. But our website just has so much on it that they can get for free. And again, our women's intervention groups, our recovery groups are free.
Laura Dugger: (53:33 - 53:49)
Thank you for sharing that. And you may already be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so, Stacey is my final question for you today.
What is your savvy sauce?
Stacey Womack: (53:50 - 54:39)
What is my savvy sauce? You know, when I think about how God called me into this ministry in the end, no matter what we do, I think it's about obedience to God. And so, this was not on my radar.
I would never have chosen it. And so, for me, it's about being obedient to what God has called me to do, even when it's hard and even when it's unpopular. And walking in that so that when I stand before God, I can say I did what you asked me to, to the best of my ability, even with all my flaws.
So that's really, I think, my heart is to be that way. Be a leader like Moses, who God says he was the most humble man who ever lived. I'd love to be like that with the heart of David and the boldness of Paul and on and on and on.
Laura Dugger: (54:39 - 59:13)
So, yeah, I love that. Well, I told you before we pressed record that I have experienced so much fruit of the spirit from you already with your gentleness. And this is not the first time we tried recording.
We prayed together that God would do immeasurably more than all we could ever ask or imagine through this conversation, because we had so many technical difficulties and even had to reschedule the date for this. But Stacey, I'm so grateful you persevered because you are well-spoken and you tackle this extremely difficult topic with wisdom and grace. And so, I'm very grateful I got to learn from you today.
And I believe God's going to continue working through you, even for the saving of many lives. So, thank you for your work and thank you for being my guest. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?
It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?
Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?
We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.
We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.
Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.
I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.
I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday May 12, 2025
Monday May 12, 2025
Special Patreon Re-Release: Wholehearted Quiet Time with Naomi Vacaro
Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
"So they went away by themselves in a boat to a solitary place. But many who saw them leaving recognized them and ran on foot from all the towns and got there ahead of them. When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them, because they were like sheep without a shepherd. So he began teaching them many things." Mark 6:32-34 (NIV)
**Transcription Below**
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
- How did your life with secret sin impact your connection with Jesus and what were some of those faulty beliefs you internalized that Christ later redeemed?
- How would you describe quiet time and its purpose?
- How does quiet time ripple out to effect everyone around us?
Naomi Vacaro is first and foremost a wholehearted follower of Jesus. She grew up as a daughter to missionaries in Outer Mongolia and then moved to Florida at the age of 18 to pursue a college degree. After graduating with a degree in graphic design, she worked as a wedding photographer and soon after felt led to create a journal called the Quiet Time Companion, along with an online ministry that would help Christians develop a daily habit of seeking Jesus. She now spends her time running the Wholehearted community and being a stay-at-home mom. She and her husband live in Florida with their son. Visit her online at wholeheartedquiettime.com or on Instagram.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and The Savvy Sauce Charities (and donate online here)
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce:
150 Brain Science and Spiritual Abundance with Ken Baugh
259 God Speaks to His Kids . . . Here's How with Chris Allen
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:51)
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
Are you interested in a free college education for you or someone you know? Stay tuned for details coming later in this episode from today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. You can also visit their website today at chickfila.com/East Peoria.
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My guest for today is Naomi Vaccaro, and she has wisdom beyond her years that she articulates beautifully in her faith journey. She's humbly going to share some highs and lows, and she's able to pull out ways that the Lord has called her to live in the light. And she has practical suggestions for ways we can do the same.
Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Naomi.
Naomi Vaccaro: (1:53 - 2:01)
Hi, Laura. Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited to be here and just can't wait to dive into all this amazing conversation.
Laura Dugger: (2:02 - 2:10)
Well, likewise, I feel the same. And will you start us off by just giving us a glimpse of your journey to becoming a Christ follower?
Naomi Vaccaro: (2:11 - 4:04)
Yeah, absolutely. So, my story is probably very similar to many other believers who grew up in Christian homes. I know I'm not the only one who probably has a similar testimony.
But I was showed the gospel a thousand times in a hundred different ways over the course of many, many years. So, my coming to faith was definitely a slow blossoming over a long period of time. My first really memorable encounter with the Lord was when I was about seven years old.
I remember I was walking in the backyard of our home in Mongolia, which is where I grew up as a missionary kid. And during that evening, there was just this particularly beautiful sunset. And I just remember looking at the clouds in the sky and just seeing that sun dip below the horizon.
And I just knew my seven-year-old heart knew that God was real and that he was present and he saw me and he just loved me. And that was the first time I remember actually acknowledging him personally and really just wanting to be in a relationship with him. So, I would say that was when my journey of faith really started.
That's when it took root in my own heart, this longing for eternity. And then my understanding of the gospel was definitely limited to what a seven year old could grasp at the time. So, my relationship with Christ and the way I understood his grace, it deepened and it strengthened over time.
But I do believe that it was in that moment that I became committed to start the journey. And then it was just slow growth from there.
Laura Dugger: (4:05 - 4:48)
I love it. Everybody's story is so personal to them, and it never gets old hearing how Christ has wooed people to himself. But in your new book, you write on page 15, I'm going to quote you saying, “My mom and dad took their role as parents even more seriously than their calling as missionaries.”
If there was one thing they persistently taught us as kids, it was that spending time with Jesus was a necessary part of everyday life. And so Naomi, as a mom myself with a similar conviction to create a spiritually vibrant home atmosphere, I would love to learn, how did your parents actually do that?
Naomi Vaccaro: (4:49 - 8:11)
Yeah, that's a great question. I'm a mom myself now, and ever since becoming a mom, this is the question I just revisited over and over. And I'm just so grateful to have had the example that my parents gave to me.
And that's really what they did. So, my parents, first and foremost, they taught by example. Every morning without fail, my mom and dad would be the first ones up and they would each spend time with the Lord in their own routine, their own unique rhythm.
And so, it's funny, because for many years, I really thought that every other adult Christian had Bible time in the morning, just like my parents did. I thought it was just the thing adults did. And it wasn't until later in life that I realized how rare and special it was to have parents who sought the Lord so diligently and consistently.
They weren't just missionaries on the outside, you know, pastor on the outside. They had a private devotion to the Lord that was so vibrant and so real. And there was just no hypocrisy there.
Also, on the more practical side of things, I just also had the good fortune of being homeschooled, which allowed my parents a lot of flexibility and creativity with our education. So, one thing that my mom would do is every morning at around eight o'clock after we had all had breakfast, we would gather in the living room together. We would break open hymnals and sing some songs.
We would learn from a passage in scripture, and my mom would lead that time. Sometimes my dad would. And then we would pray together.
And then my mom would read a book out loud to all of us for about 30 minutes or so. And so that daily time, I just remember that being one of the most special parts of my childhood. And it was so enjoyable.
And I really think that it took the concept of a quiet time or seeking the Lord as one of the first things you did every day. It just made that rhythm really normal in my mind. So even now, it seems weird not to start my day with some kind of routine that welcomes the Lord into my day.
And I really attribute that to my mom and my dad and the way they educated us. So, my parents, they taught by example, and they integrated these beautiful rhythms into our lives at a very young age. So, if you are a parent and you really want that to become a reality in your home, just start first by creating this rhythm in your personal life.
Kids practice what we do, not just what we teach. They can sense hypocrisy very, very easily. And so, you first just need to make sure that you are devoting yourself to the Lord privately.
And they will see that and it will impact them. And then some of the ways you can bring your kids into your quiet time rhythm with you is you could have them sit next to you and have them read their own children's Bible as you read your Bible. And set aside a few minutes to pray with them every morning.
There are so many ways that we can start cultivating this culture in our home. But I really do believe that it all starts with our own sincere private devotion.
Laura Dugger: (8:12 - 9:01)
That's really helpful to hear. And I like that progression of it begins with us and our commitment to our relationship with the Lord and growing there. But that's also helpful to see it play out that they kind of fed you through the hymns and through the Bible reading, but then also transferred that responsibility on to you to pursue that as well as you got older.
Something that really stood out when I read your book was your humility and vulnerability. So, I'm wondering if you can share a little bit more of your journey now. And specifically, how did your life with secret sin impact your connection with Jesus?
And what were some of those faulty beliefs that you internalized and Christ later redeemed?
Naomi Vaccaro: (9:03 - 14:43)
Yeah. So, first of all, I just want to say, you know, this is where life happens. This is where things get real when we uncover our own failure, our own shame, when we bring it into the light.
This is just this is where God works. He works with humility. And that's why we should not be afraid to deal with these topics.
And so, I'm so excited to share my own story right now because I hope it will encourage someone else who might be listening. And it's something that I think we do need to talk about more in the Christian community. So basically, when I was eight years old, I was so young.
When I was eight years old, I was first exposed to pornography and erotica. And after that encounter, a secret sin of sexual fantasizing and seeking out more erotic content developed in my life. And this sin, the secret sin, did major damage to my walk with Jesus for a long time.
First of all, that's really what sin does, right? It separates us from God when we walk in a way that goes against his design, his good, good design for us. It destroys, it separates, it hurts.
And that's what it did for me for a long time. However, because of the grace of Christ, sin can only separate us from God if we let it. And so, I, at the time, I really did let my failure separate me from the grace of Jesus because I didn't really understand that the gospel applied to me as an already born-again Christian who struggled with sexual temptation.
I thought that you became a Christian because of the gospel, Jesus on the cross, the resurrection, the Holy Spirit, etc., etc. But deep down, I also really thought that once I was through the door of the gospel, that the Christian walk became up to me. So, every time I stumbled and fell into any kind of sin, but especially lust, because that was what I was so, so ashamed of, I would feel absolutely devastated.
And this was more than just a righteous conviction because it's good to feel devastated over our sin. This was a fear that I had somehow lost God's favor, lost his love, and particularly lost my salvation. I questioned my identity in Christ every time I stumbled in this way.
So, every time I would seek out this content and just give in to this inner sexual fantasizing, I would avoid having a quiet time for a few days because I really felt like I somehow had to do a penance, that I had to prove to God just how sorry I was. And so, this secret sin and the guilt that it gave me, it really did drive me away from Jesus, which I'm sure it just broke his heart because that is the last thing you want to do when you fall into sin is run away from God. And what's so sad is that I kept this in a secret for years.
I was eight when it started, and I was 13 when I finally got up the nerve to confess to my mother. I had prayed many times and confessed this sin to the Lord many times, but I wasn't seeing progress. I was still struggling, and I knew, I knew for years he was telling me, Naomi, you need to confess this to someone else.
You need to confess this to your mom. And I was so afraid of telling her that I was sinning in this way. I felt so dirty.
I felt so trapped and so terrified of losing her good opinion and the good opinion of anyone who would find out because I often equated the good opinion of others to love, especially as someone who's just a natural born people pleaser. But that morning when I finally confessed as a 13-year-old, the love and the grace that my mother showed me, it was the greatest reflection of the gospel I had ever experienced in my life up to that point. My sin didn't drive her away from me.
It actually drew her in closer, and that was the last thing that I expected. She embraced me. She came alongside me, and she made it clear that I was not the first or the last Christian to struggle with the sin of lust.
And she made me understand that I was not alone. And so, her reaction, it really did show me this fundamental truth, that our sin is what makes us absolutely irresistible to the compassionate heart of Christ. He hates sin because our sin is killing us.
But instead of casting us aside and pushing us away, he draws near in order to heal us. Jesus rushes to the side of a repentant sinner every single time. And that is what I learned through that journey of secret sin, wrestling inwardly, and then finally confessing in obedience to the Lord, confessing that sin to my mom.
Laura Dugger: (14:44 - 15:05)
Wow. Thank you for bravely sharing that journey. That is such an encouragement.
And if someone is relating to your story, or maybe they're in the midst of their own experience of harboring some other form of secret sin right now, and it's creating distance between them and God, what encouragement would you like to offer them?
Naomi Vaccaro: (15:07 - 17:00)
Yeah, so just run to Jesus. It all starts there. Just don't wait another moment.
Pause this episode if you need to. Hit your knees. Cry out to God.
Sin, it kills. It destroys. It separates us.
And the way we overcome sin is not by muscling our way through in our own strength. I've tried that. It doesn't work.
We have to combat sin by taking up the sword of surrender. We surrender ourselves to God, and then it becomes his strength that carries us through, that sets us free. So don't wait to confess.
Confess every single failure that's weighing on your soul. It doesn't define you in Christ. You are set free from his work.
So don't carry that garbage around anymore. Just don't do it. Jesus is so ready to embrace you, and it really is a lie that your sin makes you too dirty to approach him.
Jesus took care of that once and for all on the cross. So just like you embraced the gospel when you first became a Christian, now just cling to the gospel as you battle sin as a Christian. And then you can just ask yourself, you know, is there someone else that the Lord wants to bring alongside you in this struggle?
There's a reason why we are a body. There's a reason why we don't do the Christian walk alone, and that's because sin can't survive in the light, which is Christian accountability and confession. So, you will just be amazed at what God can do when you confess your sin to him and you make it known to other believers.
Just walk in that humility and trust that God opposes the proud, but he gives grace to the humble.
Laura Dugger: (17:01 - 19:50)
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Well, it's amazing to think about intimacy because the very first building block of intimacy is honesty. And so, I think you're just laying out such a biblical view of how to walk in freedom and intimacy with God and others by confessing and saying out loud what we're struggling with. And I know that the enemy will try whispering to us and lying and twisting things saying that this will lead to something worse or lead to more bondage.
And yet your story reveals the truth that it actually sets us free. As we continue to walk through your journey, you next experienced euphoria from having a clear conscience. And you channeled your newfound energy into a spiritual discipline that you said you most wanted to improve, which was your quiet time.
So how would you describe quiet time and its purpose?
Naomi Vaccaro: (19:51 - 21:24)
Yeah, so quiet time refers to the activities of Bible reading and prayer. And its purpose really is wonderfully simple and yet deeply profound. Simply put, having a quiet time is relating to God.
In any relationship, there needs to be back and forth communication, right? Listening and talking, receiving and sharing. So, when you become a follower of Christ, you are entering into a relationship with the Almighty God.
That is what Christianity is all about. So, reading the Bible is essentially listening to God share His heart with you. That's how you are getting to know the other being, the other person on the other side of this relationship.
And prayer is how you share your heart with God. God wants you to share about yourself. He wants to know you.
And just because He's God and He already knows everything doesn't mean He doesn't enjoy that intimacy with us. He wants to relate to us just like we would relate to anybody else. So of course, there are many other good reasons to read the Bible and pray.
But this really is the foundation of what having a quiet time is all about. It's how we cultivate and nurture our relationship with God Himself.
Laura Dugger: (21:25 - 21:31)
And what would you say to someone who feels like their quiet time has become stale or boring?
Naomi Vaccaro: (21:32 - 23:20)
So first, don't be alarmed. I get so alarmed when my quiet time becomes boring and I start second-guessing everything. But over time I've learned that this happens to everyone, and it doesn't mean you're no longer a Christian.
So just don't worry. Search your heart definitely and try to find the reason behind this season. There could be something more serious going on.
For instance, when I was walking through sin for many years, that was a huge issue that kept me from experiencing a lot of genuine delight with the Lord. So, there could be something like that that is causing trouble. Or it could just be that you are in a season that is draining your joy.
You could be walking through suffering, a significant suffering. And that should not be surprising to us that our circumstances and our suffering affect how we relate to God and the feelings we experience there. So, no matter what the reason is, the answer is the same.
Keep coming back to Christ. Even when it feels boring, I promise you the feelings will follow in time. And there are also some practical things that you can do to shake things up and make your quiet time a little more interesting if it's really just that simple.
For instance, you can bring worship music into your routine. I love worship music and that always sparks a lot of joy and just praise. You can also go on a prayer walk around your neighborhood.
You can start a new Bible study or a book. Just don't take your own lack of feeling too seriously. And just trust me that as you remain faithful in the discipline, the delight will follow in time.
Laura Dugger: (23:21 - 23:58)
And I think that even ties into what you were saying earlier about confessing or just bringing things into the light. It's such a joy to get to do this in community. So maybe even sharing with your spouse, if that applies to you, or a friend or a loved one, if this is a struggle.
And I think they can also help shed light on what's going on. But you mentioned the word season. And so, let's take this from a proactive stance then.
If someone has a big life change coming up, like a move or a wedding or a new child, how can they prepare to adapt their quiet time to a new season?
Naomi Vaccaro: (23:59 - 26:10)
Oh man, the seasons that you mentioned, each one of those have always affected my quiet time. Especially becoming a mom. Just shout out to all the moms out there.
So, I would just say, spend a good amount of time. If you see the season that is ahead of you, just spend a good amount of time praying over that season before it even arrives. Just trust that the Lord, He will give you the grace you need to transition into your new role.
And prepare your heart before the Lord to receive this sanctification, because that's what transition does. It reveals weakness in us. It reveals where we've maybe placed a lot of our hope and confidence in places other than Christ.
And so, walk into that sanctification confidently that the Lord is with you. And then just do your best when that season comes. Do your best to maintain your quiet time routine.
But don't worry too much if things get lost for a little while. It really does take time to regain our footing after a big transition. The main thing is to just not give up the habit altogether.
Just keep fighting for pieces of it as much as you can. And then overtime it will get easier. For me, it took me about six months to relearn my quiet time routine after I got married.
And after I had a baby, it took me a solid year before I became consistent again. It was really, really hard. And even now as a working mom, I still really struggle to find consistency.
So don't freak out. Don't linger on any kind of sense of failure. Just return to the Lord in whatever moments He provides.
And just know that His mercies are new every single morning. And just because you're struggling to have a quiet time in a new season of life doesn't mean that Jesus is not with you, that He's not walking with you and making you into more of His likeness. He is.
He still delights in you. He loves you. He has not left you.
He is still right there.
Laura Dugger: (26:11 - 26:24)
I think that's such a real picture because it is a fight and it's worth the fight. And Naomi, how have you seen quiet time ripple out to affect everyone around us?
Naomi Vaccaro: (26:25 - 28:38)
Oh man, I feel like I could talk about this one question for a long time because it really does affect everyone. It affects everything. Because when you think of what having a quiet time is, it is connecting us with the God of the universe.
And not only that, it is welcoming Him into our lives and making us more like Christ. So, when we do that regularly, consistently, there literally isn't anyone in our proximity who will not be positively affected by that. The more we are absorbing Scripture and engaging with the Lord in prayer about what's going on in our lives, the people in our lives, the things that weigh us down or lift us up, the more we do this and reflect Christ to the world around us, the more people will be impacted.
So, our marriages, we'll just start there. They will become so much sweeter as we lean on the love of Christ. Trust me, your spouse cannot be your ultimate fulfillment.
And when we look to our spouse to fulfill every single one of our needs, marriage becomes really hard. But the more we lean on our true source of joy and satisfaction, marriage actually becomes really, really wonderful. So, for the sake of your marriage, have a quiet time.
And the same is true for our kids. They are not meant to be the center of our universe. And they will feel so much more happy and secure as we find our joy in the Lord.
They cannot bear the weight of our worship. And so if you want kids who are just full of joy, then spend time with the Lord and trust him to take care of them. And then obviously just our neighbors, our coworkers, our friends, our relatives, everyone we encounter will feel the ripple effect of our own private devotion to God.
I truly do believe that one person who is faithful to seek the Lord on a regular basis will have an impact that resounds throughout eternity itself. I really, really do.
Laura Dugger: (28:39 - 28:49)
And do you think it's ever possible to selfishly prioritize our allegiance to these spiritual disciplines above other priorities?
Naomi Vaccaro: (28:50 - 31:30)
Yes. Absolutely. And this is something I do talk about in my book, and I share some content there that really impacted me when I was learning about flexibility in our spiritual disciplines.
So, I think it's really important to realize that having a daily quiet time is not a command in Scripture. It's not a sin issue if you don't have a quiet time. It's a relationship issue.
So, the actual function of Bible reading and prayer is not some kind of non-negotiable ritual that we perform. Ultimately, the Christian walk is about loving the Lord, our God, with all we have and loving our neighbor as ourselves. God will never ask us to compromise on either one of those.
He will never ask us to sacrifice one for the other. So loving God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength will also always look like loving our neighbor as ourselves. Sometimes it looks like changing a diaper instead of opening up that Bible study we're just dying to get into.
And sometimes it looks like running out the door to help someone in an emergency rather than having our regularly scheduled prayer time. Our spiritual disciplines need to be flexible enough to be interrupted. Otherwise, we are making the routine itself too important.
And I really believe the best example of this is Christ himself. There are multiple instances in Scripture where Jesus allows his prayer time with the Father or even his journey down the road to be interrupted by the needs of others. Jesus was always ready to stop and serve, even if that meant shifting his other plans.
Now we all have our own capacity, so that doesn't mean you always have to be rushing to this person and that person. It just means that you need to be willing to let go of your routines in place of the leading of the Holy Spirit. Wherever he wants us to go to love God and love others, that's what we need to remember.
And then just remember that quiet time is not the end goal in itself. That is not the ultimate end of the Christian life. Love for God and love for others really does go beyond daily Bible reading and prayer.
Sometimes our quiet time will need to be changed or postponed in order for us to love others the way God wants us to.
Laura Dugger: (31:31 - 32:42)
I love scenarios that are both and, and you're laying that out for us, that quiet time both is important and its worthy of being prioritized and flexibility is important and Christ-like as well.
Did you know you could receive a free email with monthly encouragement, practical tips, and plenty of questions to ask to take your conversation a level deeper, whether that's in parenting or on date nights? Make sure you access all of this at thesavvysauce.com by clicking the button that says join our email list so that you can follow the prompts and begin receiving these emails at the beginning of each month. Enjoy! Another part of your book just made me smile when you were talking about whether you believe prayer and Scripture reading are non-negotiables, but you also invite readers to journal for a variety of reasons. And I love journaling as well.
But from your standpoint, will you elaborate on some convincing reasons to give journaling a try?
Naomi Vaccaro: (32:44 - 35:36)
Absolutely. So, I am also an avid journaler. I have been journaling since I was about eight years old.
And over time, I really have just seen so many amazing benefits to journaling. Like you said, it's not a non-negotiable element to a quiet time. It's not absolutely necessary to journal.
Whereas I would say Bible reading and prayer are necessary because they are our modes of communication to the Lord. So, journaling really is more of a bonus element. But keeping a diary will always be something I recommend for several reasons.
So here are my main reasons why I recommend journaling. So, first of all, journaling really does help us process our emotions. We've got a lot of feelings rolling around inside of us.
And sometimes it is so good to just wrestle those feelings onto a page so that we can look them over, analyze them, process them, submit them to the Lord, and maybe understand why we are feeling a certain way and then what next steps we should take to address those emotions. So that's my first reason. Journaling really helps us process our emotions.
Also, I think most people understand that this is a huge benefit of journaling. But journaling really is a wonderful way to preserve our memories. There are so many stories I would never have remembered if I didn't write them down years ago.
And I just absolutely love, it gives me so much joy to go back through my old journals and read about events and what I thought about certain events that happened years ago. And at the time, those things seemed so big and important. But now they are just the sweetest memories that I get to pass down to my children, hopefully, and hopefully their children.
So yes, journaling also helps us preserve our memories. And then finally, I think the most compelling reason to journal is the way it helps us keep a record of God's faithfulness in our lives. So how many times do you and I pray over something super specific, something we are super worried about, and then that problem is solved.
The Lord provides, and the need is met. And then the next day, we kind of forgot all about it. We just move right along to the next worry.
I know that I do this all the time, and journaling has really helped me in this area. I get so caught up with now that I forget about all the dozens and hundreds of times that God has been faithful to provide and protect and comfort me in the past. So journaling is just such a good, practical way to deepen our faith as we record and remember how good God has been to us over time.
Laura Dugger: (35:36 - 35:56)
And I even think the Bible encourages this in different ways when it's talking about writing this down or passing this on to your children. Or one of my favorites in the last part of Proverbs 3.21 says, preserve sound judgment and discernment. Do not let them out of your sight.
And so, I just echo all that you're saying.
Naomi Vaccaro: (35:57 - 35:58)
Yes.
Laura Dugger: (35:58 - 36:08)
When we consider the Holy Spirit's impactful role in our lives, how can we discern when we're being spirit-led versus flesh-led?
Naomi Vaccaro: (36:09 - 38:20)
You know, what's so amazing about being a Christian is that we have been given the gift of the Helper, with a capital H, you know, the Holy Spirit who now dwells within those who belong to Christ. It's so amazing. So, if you look at yourself in the mirror right now, you can just know the Holy Spirit is looking right back at you.
It's pretty amazing. We get to walk every day hand-in-hand with the Holy Spirit. And the more we listen to Him and let Him guide us in our lives, the easier it will be to hear Him again.
And that's what we want. We want to be spirit-led people. So how do we do that?
The age-old question. So, one thing that we can always be certain of is that the Holy Spirit will never contradict the revealed will of God in Scripture. The Holy Spirit is a part of the Trinity.
They are all so connected in their purpose. They are one. And yes, the Spirit, He can work in our emotions, and He often does.
But the problem is, our feelings can be so tricky. And we always want to measure them against the Holy Word of God because that is where our source of truth is found. So, this really is the truest test for the leading of the Holy Spirit versus the leading of our flesh.
Our flesh will always be self-centered. And the Holy Spirit will always be Christ-centered. The Holy Spirit exists to magnify Christ, right?
So, as we look at Christ and adore Christ, then the Holy Spirit will grow stronger and stronger inside of us. So that's what I would encourage you to do. If you want to discern the difference between the Holy Spirit's leading and your flesh's leading, then really just start with studying God's Word.
Bring it into your home, your soul, your day-to-day life, and you will begin to discern the difference in no time.
Laura Dugger: (38:22 - 38:28)
And how can we spur one another on to love and good deeds, especially in community?
Naomi Vaccaro: (38:29 - 40:15)
So first, you need to be in community in order to spur one another on to love and good deeds, right? So, we really do need to start there because we're living in a time, especially in our country, I think around the world, where there is just a pandemic of loneliness and people are not living in community. So start by finding that community.
Find a local body of believers in Christ to do life with. And I don't just mean a Sunday morning service. Find people that you can see multiple times a week and start to get vulnerable and involved in each other's lives.
Start a prayer group together. Gather your kids and have a regular play date. Do game nights with the whole family.
Just think outside the box of Sunday morning. And after that, I just really believe that in order to love one another well, we need to bring it back to the whole topic of this conversation. We need to start with our own private relationship with God.
If this vertical relationship between God and us is out of whack, then our horizontal relationships with others will really just start to disintegrate. So, we need to begin with our own relationship with Christ and begin by praying for the people in your community as you spend time talking with Him. He will be the one to fill you with the love you need to then go and pour it out to the other members of your community.
And that is what spurs Christians on to love and good deeds. And it always has been.
Laura Dugger: (40:16 - 40:29)
Well, Naomi, I'm enjoying this conversation. And if anybody wants to continue the conversation, where would you direct us online to find you and begin implementing these rhythms that you've taught us today?
Naomi Vaccaro: (40:30 - 41:09)
Thank you, Laura. I've had such a great time talking with you, too. And I would just love to chat with anyone else who wants to come and start a conversation.
You can find me on Instagram at Naomi Vaccaro. And you can find my ministry, Wholehearted, where we focus on discipling Christians to have a daily quiet time. You can find that ministry on Instagram at WholeheartedQuietTime.
Also, our website is WholeheartedQuietTime.com. And that's where we have our blog and our online shop and a lot of free resources. So please come on by.
I would love to meet you.
Laura Dugger: (41:09 - 41:28)
Wonderful. We will link to that in the show notes for today's episode. And you may be aware we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight.
And so, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Naomi Vaccaro: (41:28 - 41:51)
Yeah, I love this. Savvy Sauce. There's a lot of things I could say, but when it comes down to it, my savvy sauce really is getting a good night's sleep.
I become a monster if I don't sleep enough. So, I need to get my rest. I cannot recommend it highly enough, people.
Get yourselves eight hours every night. Amen to that.
Laura Dugger: (41:51 - 42:17)
That is wonderful savvy sauce. And maybe that's part of the reason and more so your connection with the Lord. But I just experience you as such a peaceful and kind and gentle person.
And I can hear all of the passion about this coming from you. So, thank you for the work that you're faithfully doing with Wholehearted. And thank you for being my guest today.
Naomi Vaccaro: (42:18 - 42:34)
Thank you, Laura. I just feel so encouraged and so, so loved by God through this conversation. And I cannot wait to see what he is going to do in His people through your work, your podcast, and Lord willing, my book.
So may His will be done.
Laura Dugger: (42:35 - 46:36)
Thank you so much, Naomi.
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?
It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?
Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?
We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.
We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.
Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.
I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.
I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday May 05, 2025
Monday May 05, 2025
262. Why Are So Many People Homeschooling? With Monica Swanson
Proverbs 19:21 (NIV) Many are the plans in a person’s heart, but it is the Lord’s purpose that prevails.
**Transcription Below**
Monica Swanson and her husband, Dave (a hospital physician), are raising four sons on the North Shore of Oahu, Hawaii. They have graduated three sons, and homeschool the other one, and they spend much of their free time supporting their sons' competitive surfing and enjoying all that Hawaii has to offer. Monica's background is in sports medicine and fitness, and she shares inspiration for balanced living, as well as recipes, stories, and a ton of encouragement for families on her blog at MonicaSwanson.com.
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
- According to analysis from The Washington Post, homeschooling has become the fastest-growing form of education in America. Why do you believe there has been a shift in the perception and implementation of homeschooling?
- In chapter 1, you share "20 Good Reasons to Homeschool Your Kids." Will you share a couple favorites from your list?
- What are the three steps you recommend to begin?
Number One Most Popular Episode on The Savvy Sauce from 2023:
#1 from 2023: School Series: Benefits of Homeschooling with Jodi Mockabee
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website.
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:22)
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness.
Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org.
My guest for today is podcaster and author Monica Swanson. Her latest book is entitled Becoming Homeschoolers, and we're going to discuss that today. Also, anytime someone mentions what their best decision has been so far in parenting, I always listen in.
So, Monica is going to share that with us today, along with so much more. Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Monica.
Monica Swanson: (1:12 - 1:14)
Thanks so much. Great to be here.
Laura Dugger: (1:14 - 1:49)
Well, we're just going to dive right in because I'm hoping that you'll share a little bit about your family and your journey along the way. But even from the get-go of your book, you were thinking back to this compelling realization you had when you were reflecting on your sons and you told your husband, I'm pretty sure that the greatest factor in shaping our boys' lives outside of their relationship with Jesus has been that we homeschooled them. Homeschooling isn't just a nice little part of their growing up story.
It's the main story.
Monica Swanson: (1:50 - 3:25)
Will you elaborate on that? Totally. It's really funny how I guess sometimes the Lord just reveals things to you a little bit at a time.
I wrote a book in 2019, Boy Mom, then I wrote Raising Amazing, it came out just a year ago. It's my heart to encourage families and parents and I've been doing that for so long. Homeschooling comes up here and there and I've mentioned it.
People ask a lot of questions, but somehow I think in my heart's desire to serve the masses and to make sure I'm not excluding anyone. It just has been my heart's desire to say, no matter what, I just want to support families. As I wrapped up my book, Raising Amazing, and I was in that last chapter talking about how kids spend their time and really just encouraging families to be intentional about all the different things we do with our time because I have now three grown children.
I can look back and go, wow, those days that seemed so long, they really were short. Those years flew by. As I reflected on that, it's like it just hit me square between the eyes and I couldn't deny it.
I was like, Dave, I haven't told the whole story. I haven't meant to hide anything or keep anything back, but if I'm really honest, homeschooling is a huge part of our family. I need to actually talk about that more than I ever have.
That is where Becoming Homeschoolers, my newest book, was born. It's just been so fun to have the freedom to go, okay, now I get to tell you everything. That's the story.
Laura Dugger: (3:26 - 3:32)
I love it. You mentioned Dave, your husband. Can you also tell us your son's names, ages?
Monica Swanson: (3:33 - 4:38)
You betcha. Yes. I have two sons who now live in California.
One is a college graduate and got a job. He's adulting in the Santa Barbara area. His name is Josiah. He's 24. He's single. If you've got great daughters out there, they'll love it when I say these things.
Then I have a 22-year-old who, as we record, is about to graduate from Westmont College, also in Santa Barbara. That's Jonah. He's hoping to get a job in the area and stick around too.
Then my 20-year-old, Luke, lives here. This is home-base, but he is a professional surfer. He travels the world regularly for surfing and he's doing online college and just comes and goes.
That's a really fun part of our family life. Then my 13-year-old, Levi, is homeschooling. He's pursuing golf with all of his heart.
I get to stay humble. I say he keeps me young or he makes me old. I'm not sure which, but he's 13.
That's all my boys and I just love them so much.
Laura Dugger: (4:39 - 5:24)
That is wonderful. I was telling you before we started the recording that we run a top 10 series every year at The Savvy Sauce. This past summer revealed that the most popular top 10, number one episode, was all on the topic of homeschooling.
It's clearly a popular topic. I think it's more commonly considered than we realize. In fact, in your book, you taught me that according to analysis from the Washington Post, homeschooling has become the fastest growing form of education in America.
Monica, why do you believe that there's been a shift in the perception and implementation of homeschooling?
Monica Swanson: (5:25 - 7:18)
Great question because many of us, and I share in the book, grew up with the typical stereotype about homeschoolers. I just thought they were weird. I never even considered it until I had kids of my own and I was facing choices about their education.
Here in Hawaii, we probably have even more limited options than a lot of people do. I think the pandemic brought this wave of air quote homeschooling, which anyone out there who had that experience and hated it, that's not what homeschooling is like. I like to tell people, don't think that's all there is.
But that did kind of open some people's minds to like, could we do school at home? And maybe they were trying to do it through distance learning and failing, but then they're like, well, what if we did our own thing or use the charter or did something else? So, I think that kind of opened the door.
But beyond that, I also think that there's just a whole lot of people, especially in the faith community, but even outside of the faith community, who are just looking at our culture and our schools and saying what in the world is going on. What are these new things that are suddenly celebrated, and talked about, and really even pushed into our public schools in some areas more than others, of course. And what's the future going to look like, like if you have little kids and you're looking at the schools now, well, imagine in five years, because in the past two, three years, a lot has changed and I don't think it's going to turn around and go the other way.
So, I think people are just like, OK, what are our options here? And their minds are just being opened. And I think it's becoming more socially acceptable.
Some of the old stereotypes are being taken down, thankfully, and people are realizing that some great there's great options. There's a lot of ways you can homeschool. There is so many helpful resources.
And so, yeah, I think we're just learning more. And as we learn more, people are ready to try it.
Laura Dugger: (7:19 - 7:35)
Well, and then if you think back to your beginning days, what were some of the fears that you had when you were beginning this journey? And then could you also share some of the truth that Jesus was able to replace those fears with and your experience was able to replace?
Monica Swanson: (7:36 - 8:53)
Yes, 100 percent. Well, I think new things are scary, right, all the time. And it makes sense if people are concerned or have fear about if they can give their kids everything that they need.
I know for me, it was can I give my kids what they would get in a traditional public-school setting, even a private school? How can I match that at home? And I think that's what I hear from most people. When I'm like, what are your biggest fears?
If I ask on social media or something like that, most people would say, “I don't know if I could give my kids enough. I don't know where to get started.” And those were my exact questions, especially when I thought about high school. I wanted to make sure if my kids wanted to go to college, that door would be open or at least I wouldn't be the one to close it.
And I think that's a reasonable thing. I think parents should. I think even though college isn't for everyone, I think that it's reasonable to make sure your kids have that option if they choose in their later high school years.
So, with that, I think that it's OK to have some concerns. But oh, my goodness, the Lord just provided one step at a time. I didn't know much.
I just took that first step into homeschooling. And each year I learned a little bit more. I found more resources.
And my goodness, it wasn't nearly what I imagined it would be.
Laura Dugger: (8:55 - 9:10)
Well, then also when I'm thinking I've got your book right here and even from chapter one, you were sharing 20 good reasons to homeschool your kids, and you can share them all of you. I thought they were fantastic. But you want to just share a couple of your favorites.
Monica Swanson: (9:11 - 11:45)
Sure. Yes. Well, I mean, my favorites coming out the other side with three grown, you know, graduated kids would be the things that are hard to put like numbers or statistics by.
It's things like the relationships we have with one another. Seeing my boys be best friends as we're talking. They've got a text thread going because they're planning a road trip together.
When my second son graduates from college, they would choose each other over anyone. And I cannot deny that comes from all the time they spent together. Homeschooling our relationship with our boys.
We are just super close with our grown sons. And so, it is those kind of things. Seeing my boys’ faith.
I mean, 3 John 1:4 is my parenting life verse, which is, “I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.” And I am like, oh, my goodness, that came. I mean, can you give that to your kids if they go to a traditional school?
Absolutely. That is possible. But I will say when they're home all day long, it is a lot easier to live that Deuteronomy chapter six lifestyle of talking about spiritual things when you get up, when you walk along the road, when you lie down.
That's what we gave our kids. So those are the big things. But then in the book, I know some parents out there are like, I need to know, you know, more academics and all that.
So, we talk about how homeschool kids consistently outperform traditionally school kids on SAT tests, that colleges are now looking to recruit homeschool kids because they see how well they do in college. They're actually very well adjusted. They're very independent learners.
They're motivated. They do well on timelines. So, some of those things are in there as well.
And then, of course, things like mental health. It's just proven that homeschool kids sleep more, have better mental health, socialization, healthy socialization. Despite all the myths out there that homeschoolers cannot socialize, I'm like, actually, let's flip that script and point out the fact that homeschoolers have really healthy socialization because we're helping them choose the kind of people that they're going to surround themselves with.
I would say socialization might be one of the top reasons to choose homeschooling, not a factor that would be a concern for homeschoolers. So, yeah, we've got 20 good reasons. By the time you read all those, most people are like, OK, I'm convinced, sign me up.
And, you know, definitely somebody is going to read it and be like, yeah, those are good, but it's still not for me. Then that's fine. Hopefully you're still encouraged to be intentional in your parenting and look for some ways to be involved in your kids' education and all that.
Laura Dugger: (11:47 - 14:03)
Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. Midwest Food Bank exists to provide industry leading food relief to those in need while feeding them spiritually. They are a food charity with a desire to demonstrate God's love by providing help to those in need.
Unlike other parts of the world where there's not enough food in America, the resources actually do exist. That's why food pantries and food banks like Midwest Food Bank are so important. The goods that they deliver to their agency partners help to supplement the food supply for families and individuals across our country, aiding those whose resources are beyond stretched.
Midwest Food Bank also supports people globally through their locations in Haiti and East Africa, which are some of the areas hardest hit by hunger arising from poverty. This ministry reaches millions of people every year. And thanks to the Lord's provision, 99 percent of every donation goes directly toward providing food to people in need.
The remaining 1 percent of income is used for fundraising, cost of leadership, oversight and other administrative expenses. Donations, volunteers and prayers are always appreciated for Midwest Food Bank. To learn more, visit MidwestFoodBank.org or listen to Episode 83 of The Savvy Sauce, where the founder, David Kieser, shares miracles of God that he's witnessed through this nonprofit organization. I hope you check them out today. Well, and I'd love to just go a little bit further into that socialization because we don't get to hear the flipped perspective. And you are right.
As our family transitioned into homeschooling, there were two things that especially resonated from your book that everybody will ask about socialization. So, I'd love for you to unpack that. And then just so humorous that you were sharing a story in the book where somebody, I believe it was another doctor who discovered what you did as a homeschooling mom.
And he was saying, oh, I could never do it, as if you were asking him to do it. And he gave you all the reasons. But yes, yes.
With socialization, tell us more, because we don't get to hear that side very often. Totally.
Monica Swanson: (14:04 - 17:19)
Yes. Well, I think there's like three different places in the book where socialization comes up. So, if that's on anyone's mind, they're going to it's going to be covered well in there.
But I think, you know, and I confess, I'm like, listen, if you bring up socialization to a seasoned homeschool mom, depending on the day, you're going to get one of two responses. First, we might be really understanding because most of us have the same concern. At one point, like I said, I thought homeschoolers were weird.
My husband really hesitated to say yes to homeschooling because he thought the same thing. So, we get it. But we're also kind of tired of people bringing it up.
I mean, it's literally the first thing most people bring up. If I meet a stranger, I'm out with the kids on a Tuesday and they're like, oh, why aren't the kids in school? And I'm like, oh, we homeschool.
Literally, they don't even hesitate to say, oh, well, what do you do about socialization? And I'm like, interesting that my kids like carrying on a conversation with you right now, giving you eye contact, super comfortable. Do you really think they're struggling with socialization?
So, we get a little snarky sometimes because we are sick of that topic coming up. But again, I just love the fact that homeschoolers get to be socialized in an environment that we choose. And can you blow it?
Are there examples of homeschool families that are, you know, raising their kids without getting them out of the house? I'm sure that happens. I'm sure there's, you know, plenty of situations where parents don't do a good job of socializing their kids.
But I also like to say in the book that there's quirky, odd, awkward kids in every setting. I mean, that's just that's just humanity. Right.
So, I remember growing up in a public school. There were a good couple handfuls of really weird kids. Like they were just strange.
Nobody questioned that. They were just strange kids. Right.
Oh, but if they're homeschooled, then everybody's going to blame homeschooling on them being weird. So, end of the day, this is what I say, “Most likely, your kids are going to grow up to be like you, whether they're homeschooled or not, but if they're homeschooled, even more so because they're going to be around you.”
So, I say if you are a little bit weird, quirky, there's a good chance your kids are going to grow up to be that way, too. And you know what? There are worse things in the world than raising a quirky kid.
And I'd rather raise a quirky kid than a kid who is socialized in our current culture out there today and makes all kinds of choices that could lead them down some really dark paths. Quirky isn't all bad. Sometimes quirky is really good.
But on the other hand, if you say, I'm pretty social, I'm well adjusted. I'm, you know, a pretty cool human being. Your kids are probably going to turn out to be like you.
So, whatever you want your kids to be like, they're just going to model what mom and dad are like. So, it's on you, mom and dad. And if you're homeschooling, they're probably going to grow up to be a whole lot like you.
So, that's, that's the bottom line of it all. And, um, socialization is just not an issue. Yeah, we need to make some efforts.
We want to get them involved in whether it's a co-op sports youth ministry. There's so many opportunities and most homeschoolers I know are doing a really good job of that. And I don't think kids need daily all day long to be interacting with their peers.
I think that, you know, they need some of that, but mostly being home with family is the healthiest place for them to spend the majority of their time.
Laura Dugger: (17:20 - 17:55)
I appreciate that. And just want to draw one other piece. I thought it was so interesting that your family has chosen some things that would be considered counter cultural.
And I think that makes a lot of sense because Jesus was counter cultural. And yet there were seasons then where your boys gave you permission to share that they went through some lonely times, but I loved your takeaway that it actually was, it was a combination of those lonely seasons that really made them dive deep in their relationship with Christ and they got through those seasons.
Monica Swanson: (17:56 - 21:21)
Totally. Yeah. I love to talk about this.
And I think that the more I've, I've shared this, honestly, the more I've heard from people who are like, thank you. My kid's going through that now. I think loneliness is part of, well, first of all, it's part of the human experience.
We all have lonely seasons, right? But especially growing up, wherever kids are in school, loneliness is kind of just a built-in part of that adolescence season. And when kids are homeschooled, and especially if kids are making a choice to stay on that narrow path, there's likely to be some lonely seasons.
So, my boys maybe had their, their youth friends, you know, church friends. We're in a really small community. So, they have their couple of handfuls of friends.
When they hit those middle school years, kids start to make choices to hang out with the crowd, to compromise their faith, to make their own choices. And especially their friends who went to a public school were starting to make bad choices. And my boys were kind of faced with the decision.
Do I keep hanging out with them? Maybe I can influence them, you know, or do I just pull away? And that's where we as parents are important, coaching our kids through these things.
And so, my husband and I would be like, you know, we want to keep loving these kids, invite them over, invite them to youth group, invite them to our spaces. But no, we're not going to send you out with a crowd of young people who are making bad choices and hope that you're going to influence them. That's just not the way it typically works.
It's more likely you will be influenced by them. And, you know, I, I quote King Solomon and, and Paul, you know, he who walks with the wise will become wise, but a companion of fools will suffer harm. That's in the book of Proverbs.
And then Paul talks about, you know, don't be fooled. Bad company corrupts good character. So, we're really intentional about those influences in our kids' lives.
So, we made some hard choices and we watched our sons kind of hang out with mom and dad on Friday night. And they didn't suffer too much in that season, but it probably wasn't their ideal. But like you mentioned, what we saw was in that time they had started pursuing things like guitar, like photography.
One of my sons built a website, learned code, put his photos online. They were making stop motion videos and homemade movies. And most of all, they really spent time with the Lord.
There, their devotions weren't rushed because they had to be somewhere else. They dug into the Bible. They grew to see the Lord as their very best friend.
And after a couple of years, they started to develop some friendships that maybe they wouldn't have sought out earlier on. They were the youth group kids. They were the kids kind of like them.
Maybe we're lonely too. And they, to this day would say those are some of their lifelong best friends and all is well. But for a couple of years, there weren't a lot of social activities going on and they did just fine.
They didn't. Today they would say, “thank you mom and dad for those years because we grew the most during those seasons.” And so, if anyone's in that now, senior kid, maybe feeling a little bit lonely.
Yes. Make the efforts. I encourage you to get them involved where they can.
That's, you know, a good positive place for them, but also don't worry too much. Just make sure that they've got plenty of things to explore and be there for them. And they're going to come out.
Okay. On the other side.
Laura Dugger: (21:22 - 21:39)
That's so reassuring to hear. And you've been through it, but you also mentioned that freedom was one of the biggest benefits of homeschooling. So, Monica, what did that lifestyle allow you and your family to do that?
Otherwise, you wouldn't have experienced.
Monica Swanson: (21:40 - 22:54)
Totally. Yes. Well, I think, you know, some of the first things that come to mind living on an island where we don't get to travel a lot because, you know, road trips are hard to do on a little island.
So, taking a trip to the mainland is a big deal. And if all we could do is travel to the mainland over the holidays, during spring break or summertime, it would be really difficult and very expensive. So, we've loved that as my husband's work allows him time off, we can travel, see family, do adventures when other people aren't or the majority aren't.
Um, the freedom also to just, again, pursue those things that my boys ended up finding to be their passions and interests, having a professional surfer and a son who hopes to be a professional golfer, my goodness, they wouldn't be who they are today if they couldn't train according to the best times of day to get in the ocean or to go golfing. And so, we've just had a ton of freedom to pursue the things we want and make school fit in around that. Um, my older sons, one did speech and debate.
The other is real involved in ministry. Well, they both did a lot of ministry. So yeah, having your own schedule is pretty sweet.
And once you get a taste of that, it's hard to ever imagine going back.
Laura Dugger: (22:55 - 23:08)
I see that because I think one of my other big surprises has been that the school time takes so much less time than you would think. It doesn't fill up the entire typical public-school day.
Monica Swanson: (23:09 - 23:30)
So, for sure. Yes. Um, especially if you are efficient. I have a 13-year-old who likes to take a day that could be three to four hours and make it last nine, but you know what?
He's also learning time management. And I'm like, buddy, it's up to you. Do you want to be done at noon? Or, do you want to drive this out all day?
So, yes, I think that's an important part of growing up as well.
Laura Dugger: (23:30 - 24:07)
Uh, that's a great point where education is a life. And so, learning time management and things along the way, but in your book, you also dispel some of the most common reasons that families avoid homeschooling. And we've talked about that fear of missing out and socialization, but you also discuss how the parents may be feeling like they don't have the credentials or the patience. Or maybe they're working and you balance it, you recognize that homeschooling isn't always easy, but can you share some of the blessings that do result from this lifestyle?
Absolutely.
Monica Swanson: (24:07 - 27:25)
Yes. And I really wanted to include this chapter for two reasons. One, as I say in the book with some big sister love, I like to, you know, in a call people's bluff. I hear so many people say, “Oh, I could never homeschool.”
My son and I just would butt heads. And I'm like, you know what? We all have a tendency to butt heads or have that one child who's testing our patience, but that is not a reason to not homeschool.
I mean, really, that means we need to work on our parenting and our kids need to develop some character. So that's a, that's a parenting issue more even than a homeschool issue. And I'm not saying it doesn't count.
I have my, God waited till number four to give me one who really challenges me, but I'm seeing that as that's on me. I need to parent better. So, I understand for those who are in that position.
Um, and then some other things are, you know, so let me go back to that. Some of the reasons people give are, like I say, maybe a smokescreen where really you could homeschool. Um, maybe you would say you, you feel like you have to work to provide income for your family.
I'm like, I get it. Life is hard. You may need to work, but at the same time, I want to challenge you on that and say, is it a need or a want?
Is your extra work because of a lifestyle you want to keep up? Cause I know people who have downsized, who sold a car, who have skipped their summer vacation. They have made huge sacrifices so that they can homeschool and they have no regrets.
Also, sometimes we can find a way to get creative and maybe take that job you go to every day and find a way to do it from home, maybe change your hours, maybe recruit some help. There are creative ways. Most people can homeschool if they want to.
I mean, there's full websites dedicated to single parents who homeschool. And I linked to those in my resource section. But with that being said, I also think it's fair to say there are some situations too, where I'm like, I get it.
This may not be your season to homeschool. You may have an opportunity to send kids to a school where you feel really good, where you can stay involved. Um, if there's a parent with a mental health issue or a serious medical condition, and it's just not a good environment for the kids, I get it.
Sometimes in a divorce situation, it's just going to be impossible. You just know, kids are going back and forth, and it may not be ideal time to try homeschooling. So, I'd like to acknowledge there are certainly times where there is all the grace in the world.
You do what's right for your family in this season. But a lot of those reasons people give me, I'm like, yeah, you can still homeschool if you really wanted to. So, I like to be fair and balanced there.
And there is a bonus chapter for those who buy the book on my website that is facing some of the real challenges that come with homeschooling. Because again, I'd like to be really honest and say, there is no school setting that is ideal. There's going to be pros and cons with everything. Homeschooling is not perfect.
You know, we battle over screens because my son is home all day. So, I see that as one of the challenges we face. You know, certainly there are real challenges that come with homeschooling, and I like to address those.
So that's what's in the bonus chapter as well. I hope will be just a lot of encouragement and some ideas, and some resources that will help make those things a little bit easier.
Laura Dugger: (27:26 - 27:47)
Well, and I want to go back to something you said about getting creative with your work and even having this conversation with you right now. This is your third book that you've written while homeschooling and you're a podcaster and you're on other people's podcasts. So, what are some tips from what that looked like for you, even though you had all those responsibilities simultaneously?
Monica Swanson: (27:49 - 28:53)
Yes. You know, I think the more organized you are, the better you are with time management, the better you're going to do. I'm not natural at any of that.
I'm a little bit more go with the flow person. So, it's challenging for me, but I do think where there's a will, there's a way. So, there've been seasons where I've hired a high school homeschooled girl to come in and help with my younger son so that I can manage my older boys and I can get some work done.
My husband, he's a doctor in a hospital and his work schedule is such that he works for, you know, a bunch of days in a row, but then he's off. And during his off weeks, I'm like, we need to team up. You need to help with homeschooling because I have to write this book.
So, there's definitely some creative ways, depending on your life situation and all of that, there's almost always something you can do, whether it's recruiting a grandparent or hiring some help. But time management is huge. If you can be up early, if you can use, you know, your afternoons or evenings, it's going to work, but it's not going to come natural.
So, you're going to have to be really intentional about time management.
Laura Dugger: (28:53 - 29:05)
Oh, that's really good. And how do you respond to the common phrase that many people say that they desire for their children to be salt and light in, let's say their public school?
Monica Swanson: (29:07 - 32:14)
Sure. I love the heart behind that. And I just, you know, totally want to applaud any parent who has that.
We, my husband and I, raise our kids to be prepared to share their faith. We want them to be a little evangelist. And so, I get that.
Um, but I also was really careful writing about this part because it was super important to me to tackle this one. Well, because I think it's super important for parents to realize that that's a big burden to put on children in their formative years while kids are still growing up. Um, you know, the one command we have from Jesus was that the little children would come to him.
It doesn't say he's not speaking to children when he says, go out and make disciples. Now, do we hope our kids might bring some friends that to youth group in church. That they might share Jesus with their friends?
Oh, my goodness. Yes. But that was never a command given to children. And so, for us to say, Oh, go be salt and light in a school where they're teaching all kinds of crazy, progressive, you know, things that, that are not biblically sound at all. Um, where they're in a culture where teachers are teaching things that our kids aren't prepared to come up against.
It's just not fair on our kids. And like I said earlier, those influences are more likely to take them down. So, I encourage parents to really consider what kids are called to, which has come to Jesus.
And we, as parents are called to train up our kids, to raise our kids in the training and admonition of the Lord. And like I already quoted Deuteronomy to teach our kids, these commands all day long so that their faith can be strong enough that when that day comes, that they leave the home, that they go out into the world. Like my older boys have that they are prepared while my older boys were in college, watching some of their friends, faith, deconstruct, watching them really get rattled.
When people challenge their faith, my boys were like, no way we know what we know, what we believe, and why we believe it because we had all those years to really develop a grounded faith. And so, I just encourage people to consider this idea of kids being salt and light. It's a sweet idea, but I don't think that sending them into the public school system, even a private school where even though it may be a Christian school, a lot of the students typically are not coming from believing families.
That's a tough position to put a child in, in today's world, maybe back 20, 30, 40 years ago, that would have been fine because the prevalent, you know, mindset was a Christian community, a Christian culture. Today, it's not that way. Today, we need to be just really aware of what's out there and it's, scary what's out there.
So, we need to prepare our kids well for that. And it's hard to do that in the short amount of time we have when they go to school every day, all day. We just have little snippets of time with them. So that would be my response.
There's more in the book and, and it's an important topic. And, and again, God bless you. If that's your heart's desire, I want to encourage that.
I just think we need to make sure we're seeing it for what it is and not assuming our kids are able to do something that they're not ready to do.
Laura Dugger: (32:15 - 33:23)
By now, I hope you've checked out our updated website, thesavvysauce.com, so that you can have access to all the additional freebies we are offering, including all of our previous articles and all of our previous episodes, which now include transcriptions. You will be equipped to have your own practical chats for intentional living when you read all the recommended questions in the articles or gain insight from expert guests and past episodes. As you read through the transcriptions, because many people have shared with us that they want to take notes on previous episodes, or maybe their spouse prefers to read our conversations rather than listen to them, we heard all of that.
And we now have provided transcripts for all our episodes. Just visit thesavvysauce.com. All of this is conveniently located under the tab show notes on our website. Happy reading.
Well, and I'm also curious, Monica, what other surprises came along the way during your homeschool journey?
Monica Swanson: (33:24 - 34:23)
Hmm. Well, I think the whole experience was a little bit of a surprise just because I went into it without any idea what I was doing. Uh, I think just how much I enjoyed learning things that probably I never got from my own education.
I mean, my son's eighth grade history. I'm like, oh my goodness, I'm learning so much right alongside you. So, I think for me, it's been really fun to kind of get a second chance at school.
Uh, I love, you know, seeing kids learn something new, seeing that light bulb moment. Uh, just the whole environment of getting to witness our kids having those aha moments, it's been really, really fun for me. And then seeing kids also kind of team up. And when one's struggling with math and the older one can help the younger one and, and they're kind of, you know, debating over different things that they're learning in school.
I'm like, wow, this is so much fun. Things that I wouldn't have anticipated, but that have been really fun to watch happen over time.
Laura Dugger: (34:24 - 35:03)
Well, and I think you also pointed out a few different things that I hadn't considered as much before. Just that you would take that more leisurely pace over the hour of stress and rush to get out of the house in the morning and even one other little piece. I love how you articulated that you were so grateful to get to raise your boys reading Proverbs because that's imparting wisdom rather than culture to be our trainer. So, for all of these reasons, if somebody's saying, okay, I'm in, what are the three steps that you recommend they take?
Monica Swanson: (35:05 - 37:47)
Yes, I've got three steps listed in my book. So, the three steps, if you are interested in becoming a homeschooler, the first steps, you know, always pray. Have conversations, talk to some homeschool families that you know. I do like to remind people, worst case scenario, you hate it, you can always go back, right? Although I also love to encourage people to consider that idea of really owning their homeschool experience and becoming homeschoolers and making that your family culture.
So, once you've started, I love to hear that families are like, we're in it for the long haul, we're going to do this. But yes, you can try it, and you can give it a trial run. That's okay.
But once you decide, the three steps are to know the legal requirements to officially begin homeschooling. That part isn't hard at all. It's actually really simple.
And in the book, I give you some websites. You can go to the HSLDA website actually is really helpful. They have tons of information, but if you go there, they have information state by state. You click on it. There's actually a lawyer from your state or that represents your state that tells you the legal requirements for your state for homeschooling. And it's really quite simple, pretty much in every state.
So, number one is super easy.
Number two is probably what most people take the most time on. And that's choosing your curriculum, the style of homeschooling you want to have.
This can be super exciting. It can be super overwhelming, but I list all the different styles of homeschooling as well as some curriculum choices in my book. And what I tell people is we're all going to probably switch it up a few times.
So don't overthink this, find something that you want to try and try it. You can always change later. Just get started.
Don't get frozen on that step.
And then number three, make a plan for how you want your homeschool days to look. And that's the, I think the fun part.
That's where you decide, do we want to homeschool year-round? Do we want to be on the traditional school calendar? What hours of the day do we want to homeschool?
How do we want that to look? And you get to decide this for your family. And that's back to that freedom point you had.
You have the freedom to choose what you want it to look like. And so that's kind of a fun part of the process. Those three steps are really simple.
And then everything that follows that you have plenty of time to figure it out. You don't have to know all the answers. You don't have to know how you're going to get your eight-year-old into college.
You've got time. Take a deep breath because it's all going to work out. And this book does cover preschool to college.
So, everything you need to know to hit that next step, whatever it might be, is all in the book.
Laura Dugger: (37:48 - 37:59)
Wonderful. And Monica, if we want to continue learning from you, whether it's about homeschooling or parenting or get more encouragement, where would you direct us to go online after this conversation?
Monica Swanson: (38:00 - 38:38)
Ah, thank you for asking. Yes. My home base is my website, monicaswanson.com.
And there's links to my podcast, my books, all the different things there. My favorite place to hang out on social media is Instagram. And I'm at monicaswanson_ there.
And if you find me, please say hi. Tell me how you found me because I love to make new friends, and it is genuinely my heart's desire to encourage families. And I say in the book, as much as I'm pro-homeschooling, I'm even more pro-family.
So whatever choice you make, um, you know, all the grace in the world to you, just continue to do your best to be intentional as a family and God's going to honor that.
Laura Dugger: (38:39 - 38:58)
I love the humility with which you speak when you answer all of these questions. And, and you are probably already familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, Monica this is my final question for you today.
What is your savvy sauce?
Monica Swanson: (38:59 - 39:34)
What is my savvy sauce? I think my savvy sauce is to, um, just recognize that the word of God has everything we need for every situation that we face. And so, recognizing you mentioned Proverbs already, but that there is so much wisdom.
There's so much practical advice and help that the more we turn to the word of God for what we need, and we point our kids to it as the truth that they need for every day of their life, things are all going to fall into place when you start with the word of God. So that would be my savvy sauce.
Laura Dugger: (39:35 - 43:12)
Well, and Monica, I just greatly admire how your faith in Jesus is the driving force behind your family and behind your personal decisions in every arena. And that has been so evident throughout our chat today. So, thank you for all the encouragement you shared and thank you for being my guest.
Monica Swanson:
Oh, thank you so much for having me.
Laura Dugger: (43:12 – 43:40)
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?
It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?
Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?
We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.
We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.
Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.
I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.
I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Apr 28, 2025
Monday Apr 28, 2025
261. Edible Theology with Kendall Vanderslice
John 6:35 NIV "Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty."
**Transcription Below**
Kendall Vanderslice says "Yes, before you ask, that is my true name."
Kendall is a baker and writer whose best thinking occurs as she works dough between her hands; scribbles down thoughts on pieces of parchment dusted in flour, until she can parse them out later before her keyboard. When she embarked on a career as a pastry chef, she found that her love of bread transformed the ways she read Scripture. Fascinated by God’s use of food throughout the arc of the Gospel, she merged her work in the kitchen with academic study of food and theology.
As a graduate of Wheaton College in Illinois (BA Anthropology), she began engaging questions of food and faith. Interested in commensality—or, the social dynamics of eating together—she studied food at Boston University (MLA Gastronomy). Her thesis on church meals sparked a range of theological questions, leading her to Duke University where she wrote a thesis on the theology of bread (MTS). In 2018 she was named a James Beard Foundation national scholar for her work on food and religion.
She lives in Durham, North Carolina, with her beagle, Strudel, her sourdough starter Bread Astaire, and her brood of hens: Judith Jones and the Three Gourmands.
Questions and Topics We Cover:
- You've studied so much about food and theology . . . are there any favorite lessons or resources that you still think about today?
- Is there any other science in the bread baking that is fascinating because it also has a richer, deeper spiritual meaning?
- What's one recipe in the book you're especially excited about?
Other Episode Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce:
Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce:
15 The Supernatural Power Present While Gathering at the Table with Devi Titus
Experiencing Joy, Connection, and Nourishment at the Table with Abby Turner
Fresh Take on Hospitality with Jaime Farrell
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Dream Seller Travel, Megan Rokey
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:22)
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
Do you love to travel?
If so, then let me introduce you to today's sponsor, Dream Seller Travel, a Christian-owned and operated travel agency. Check them out on Facebook or online at DreamSellerTravel.com.
We were one of those families who joined in the COVID trend of baking our own bread.
And so, I was fascinated even years later when I came across my guest for today, Kendall Vanderslice. She's an author and the founder of Edible Theology. And I've always appreciated different verses being brought to life, even things that we interact with every day, such as salt and yeast.
But God has richer meanings for all of these. And so, I can't wait for Kendall to unpack these in our conversation today. Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Kendall.
Kendall Vanderslice: (1:20 - 1:22)
Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here.
Laura Dugger: (1:23 - 1:30)
Would you mind just starting us off by sharing a bit about your background and what led you to the work that you get to do today?
Kendall Vanderslice: (1:31 - 3:46)
Sure. So, I have always loved baking. I always, you know, when I was a child, but especially once I was in middle school and high school, I had a lot of anxiety.
And so, when I just ever, anytime I needed to work through any sort of scope of emotions, I would always turn to the kitchen. Working with my hands became this way to sort of ground me and help me find calm in the midst of sort of my mind just buzzing. I was also one of five kids.
So, it was like after everyone had gone to bed and the kitchen was silent, was the only time there was quiet in my house. And so that was kind of always became the source of calm and grounding for me. And so, then when I graduated high school and was trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life, once again, I turned to the kitchen as a way to try and process what I should do.
And long story short, over time, I realized, oh, maybe actually this work of baking is the work that I am called to do. And so, I ended up taking a very circuitous path to get there. I took a gap year after high school.
I went to undergrad and studied anthropology in college. And in that time, learned that I could, my love of food and my love of the kitchen, I could examine not just in the practice of cooking, but through an anthropological and historical lens, looking at how food shapes community and shapes culture and how culture shapes the foods that we eat. And so, from there, I went and worked in professional kitchens.
But I had all these historical, cultural, theological questions kind of buzzing around at the same time. And, you know, I would go from my work at the bakery on Sunday morning. I would rush from work to church and I would receive communion each week with bread dough still stuck to my arms.
And I started to question, what does this bread that I spend my whole morning baking have to do with this bread that I receive at the communion table? And so that just unlocked a whole new path of what I could do with bread and with my baking beyond just in the kitchen and larger understanding how it shapes our awareness of who God is and how God is at work in our lives and in our communities.
Laura Dugger: (3:47 - 3:58)
Wow, that is incredible. And even today, do you want to share a few of your offerings? Because edible theology was a new concept to me, and it's just fascinating what all you have going on.
Kendall Vanderslice: (3:59 - 5:31)
Yeah, absolutely. So, my primary program is that I teach a workshop called Bake and Pray. And so, this is a workshop where I teach people how to bake bread as a form of prayer.
So, we look at the ways that bread is at play throughout the narrative of Scripture, kind of what it is that God is using, why it is that God is using bread as the storytelling device in the narrative of Scripture, and why Jesus would give us bread at the center of Christian worship. But then at the same time, we're learning how the actual practice of baking bread can be a way to connect with God, to find rest and to understand God's presence with us in a very tangible form. So, with that, I also have a handful of books.
Most recently, I released a book called Bake and Pray. It's sort of this workshop in book form. It's a collection of recipes, but also a collection of liturgies, so that you have the tools you need to make your time in the kitchen a time of prayer. I call it a prayer book meets cookbook.
But I also have a handful of other resources, a Bible study or a small group study called Worship at the Table, where it's actually helping people gather around the table and understand how God is at work through the table. And I have a podcast that it was a limited run.
There are 30 episodes called Kitchen Meditations. They are short meditations to listen to while you cook, while you're in the kitchen. So, you can understand the food that you eat more fully and also understand how your time preparing it can be a time of worship.
Laura Dugger: (5:31 - 5:50)
I love that. And there's so much to unpack. But let's just start here with all the things that you've studied with food and theology and gone to school for years and put this into practice.
Are there any favorite lessons that stand out and are maybe ones that you still think about today?
Kendall Vanderslice: (5:51 - 6:57)
Well, you know, one of my favorite books that helped shape my understanding of food is a book that was written in the 1960s by an Episcopal priest named Robert Carr-Capin. It's a book called The Supper of the Lamb. This book is just a delightful book to read.
I think everybody should read it. Robert Carr-Capin was he was an Episcopal priest, but he was also a food writer and he also was a humor writer. He and his wife wrote a satirical column together.
And so, The Supper of the Lamb is kind of the culmination of all three. It is this beautiful reflection on a theology of food in the table, but it is hilarious as well. And so, it is written as instructions to host a dinner party that is all built around preparing lamb for eight people in four different ways.
And so, it's reflections on kind of, you know, this revelation, the imagery in the book of Revelation on the marriage supper of the lamb, But then taking that to be a very liberal dinner party that he hosts in his home. And it will forever change the way that you think about food and think about the table and think about how God cares about food.
Laura Dugger: (6:58 - 7:13)
Wow, that's interesting. And even a piece of that that you had highlighted before is community, that food draws us together in community. Are there any lessons or reflections you have on that topic as well?
Kendall Vanderslice: (7:14 - 9:03)
Yeah, I mean, so I spend my days traveling the country and visiting churches and eating meals with strangers all the time. This is such a central part of my work. So, my first book was a study of churches that eat together as their primary form of worship.
And so, I had the opportunity to research 10 different churches across the country and look at how does this practice of eating together regularly shape their understanding of community, but also shape their understanding of church and shape their understanding of worship. And what I saw in that practice of traveling and eating with all of these churches was that communities that were built around the table, where their primary rhythm of gathering was this practice of eating together and talking together and dialoguing together. It created such resilience within these communities as they faced conflict and tension within them that their commitment to eating together, but then their understanding of these community meals as being intrinsically connected to the communion table, the meal of bread and the cup that they also shared, it shaped their ability to have conversations and wade into hard topics that communities might otherwise try to say, you know, kind of avoid, because what they believed was that, you know, the table that we gather at regularly is a place that can kind of manage and hold on to those tensions.
And it's a place where these hard conversations can arise. But also at the end of each of these meals, we remember that we are going to share the bread and the cup together and that God has told us that we have been made one in the body and blood of Christ. And so, we have a responsibility to care for one another, even as we argue and disagree and have a really, you know, dig into these hard conversations.
Laura Dugger: (9:04 - 9:58)
That is beautiful. And I think of so many things when you say that. I'm in the book of Acts right now, my quiet time.
And so, the early churches, they were breaking bread together daily. You see that as part of the impact, the outflow that came from that. And then just, I think, gratitude as you share, because I wasn't a follower of Jesus growing up.
Our family went to church. And by the time I was in high school, all of my family were believers, including my siblings. I was the last one.
But the church that we went to, we shared a meal together every Sunday. And those relationships are long lasting. Then you hear about what people are actually going through.
It's such a natural way to dive deeper into that fellowship. And so, I love that you've traveled around and studied this. And I'm also curious if you've connected with one of my past guests, Sarah Harmeyer with the Neighbors Table.
Kendall Vanderslice: (9:59 - 10:03)
I am familiar with her work, but I have never actually connected with her.
Laura Dugger: (10:04 - 10:09)
OK, you two. I'll link her episode in the show notes, but I think you two would have a lot of fun together.
Kendall Vanderslice: (10:09 - 10:14)
Oh, great. Great, great. I know I've seen some of her tables on.
She's the one who builds tables. Is that right?
Laura Dugger: (10:14 - 10:15)
Yes. Yes.
Kendall Vanderslice: (10:15 - 10:19)
Yes. OK. I have seen her tables on Instagram, and they look just absolutely beautiful.
Laura Dugger: (10:19 - 10:37)
I love it. Well, I'd also like to talk about your most recent book, because there's one part where you talk about the sacred language of bread. And I'd love for you just to walk us through some significant scriptures that highlight bread throughout the Bible.
Kendall Vanderslice: (10:37 - 19:43)
Yeah, absolutely. So, one of the reasons that I love to think of bread in terms of a language itself is because so often we think of our faith as being something that happens predominantly in our minds, that it is the things we believe about God and the words that we say to God. And it becomes this very sort of mental exercise of worshiping God in our heads.
And we forget that the rest of our bodies and the rest of our lives are a part of how we know God as well, that we were created in these human bodies with all of these senses. And it's only through these senses that we get to know the world around us. And it's in getting to know this creation around us that we get to know our creator as well.
And so when we think of our faith as happening something predominantly in our minds, then when we have these moments where we don't feel like God is present, or we feel like we don't hear from God, or we just don't have the energy to, you know, to read scripture every day, or we feel like we, you know, I'm just like praying and praying and praying, and I've just exhausted the words I have to say. Then it's easy for us to feel like we've been abandoned by God, that we're in this sort of spiritual dark place. But Jesus, he calls himself the word, but, you know, Jesus is the word that was present with God in the beginning.
But Jesus also calls himself the bread of life. And Jesus identifies himself as something deeply tangible. And he offers his own body to us in the form of bread at the communion table.
And so, Jesus is telling us that Jesus is present with us in this very tangible form, something that we can mix together with our hands, something that we can taste on our tongues, something that we can feel in our bellies as we digest it. That Jesus is telling us, like, I am with you in this deeply tangible way. And if you don't feel my presence, and if you don't, you know, hear what I am telling you, or you don't feel like I am listening to you, know that you can eat this bread and have this very tangible reminder that I have promised to remain present with you and to remain faithful to you.
And so, the ways that we see this at work in Scripture, once we understand that, you know, bread is not just a metaphor, that bread is actually something very physical and tangible, a way that God speaks to us, I think it changes the way that we see bread show up in Scripture. That it's not just a handy metaphor that shows up every, all over the place in the Bible, but that Jesus is actually, that God is actually doing something through bread itself.
So, the very first place that we see bread appear in Scripture is as early as Genesis 3:19, “It is by the sweat of your brow that you will eat your bread until you return to the ground, for from it you were taken, from dust you come, and to dust you will return.” So, prior to this point in Genesis, we have the creation accounts, we have, you know, that God has created the garden, placed humanity in the garden to tend to this creation, to care for it. And they are intended to, you know, they are nourished by the fruits of these trees, they delight in God by delighting in God's creation.
And God gave them just one restriction, which was a restriction on what they could eat. And so, in Genesis 3:19, we know that they have failed to honor this restriction that God has given them. And we are now learning the ramifications of that fall.
And one of those ramifications is that the soil is going to sprout forth thistles and thorns. That we will no longer just be nourished by the fruits of the trees, but that we will have to labor in this soil. We will have to labor against a creation that works against us in order to have our nutritional needs met.
But at the same time, God offers us this gift, that it's by the sweat of your brow, you will eat your bread. Our bread, you know, doesn't just grow from a tree. The humanity was probably not eating bread in the garden.
But in this offering of bread, that it's by the sweat of your brow, you will eat your bread. Humans are being told, yes, we will have to labor in the soil in order to nourish ourselves. But also, we are being invited to participate with God in the transformation of creation into something really delicious as well.
So, bread is, at the same time, both this picture of the brokenness of creation and yet also the goodness of God. This blessing, this gift from God in the midst of a broken creation. The production of bread, historically, has required a lot of work.
It requires months and months of laboring in the soil to grow wheat, harvest wheat, thresh it, and then grind it into flour. Turn that flour into dough, gather firewood to heat up an oven, and then turn that dough into bread before finally being able to eat it. So, humanity has long known that it is, you know, there is this deep, this incredible amount of labor required to make bread.
And yet also, bread contains almost all of the nutrients that humans need in order to survive. We can live off of just bread and water alone for a very, very, very long time. And in fact, many humans throughout most of human history have lived off of just bread and water for a very, very, very long time.
So then when we see bread show up in other places in scripture, we see it show up as this picture of God's miraculous provision for God's people. We see it show up as a sign of God's presence with God's people. And we see it as a sign of God's promises to God's people that God will continue this work of restoration until we have this imagery of this renewed creation in the book of Revelation.
So, one picture of that is in this provision of manna for the Israelites in the desert. You know, I think oftentimes for us, we read this story and we think the miracle is like, well, I don't know about you, but I've never opened my front door and had bread strewn across my lawn that I could just go out and gather. But we can still picture just walking into a grocery store and having a whole aisle of bread to choose from, right?
For us, the miracle seems like it just appears out of nowhere, but it doesn't seem all that crazy to just have a bunch of ready-made bread available to you. But for the Israelites, the work of making bread would have been nine months or more of labor between growing wheat, harvesting it, turning that wheat into flour, flour into dough, dough into bread. That's work that was not possible while they were wandering in the desert.
And so, when God is providing this miracle of manna, all they have to do is go out every single morning and gather, and they have to trust day after day after day that God is going to continue to provide. So, then we see a mirror of this in the story of the feeding of the 5,000. Once again, I think the miracle to us oftentimes feels like, you know, well, I've never seen five loaves capable of feeding 5,000 plus people.
But still, we can picture a Costco aisle of bread that probably has enough bread to feed 5,000 people. Just the presence of bread enough for that size crowd doesn't seem all that miraculous. But for the crowd who was gathered on the hillside with Jesus, they would have had a much closer awareness of just how much work was required to grow enough, in this case, barley.
One of the accounts says that it was barley bread. So, to grow enough barley to make enough bread to feed this crowd. And at the very least, in Mark's account of the gospel, we see a very direct link to work and how much work would be required to feed this crowd.
Because in the gospel of Mark, it says that it would take more than half a year's wages to buy enough bread to feed this crowd. So, this distinct connection between labor and hard work in order to feed, to provide the bread for these people. But Jesus circumvents that labor required to either make the bread or buy the bread and just miraculously provides these five loaves to feed 5,000 plus people.
So then on the night before his death, Jesus takes, I think, this imagery one step further. It is not just the labor of making bread that Jesus circumvents in his provision of bread for his disciples. He offers bread to his disciples and says, “This is my body that is broken for you.”
Jesus is circumventing the very work of defeating the curse of sin and death. He has taken the labor of defeating sin and death onto his own body. And he's offering that body back to his disciples and onto anyone who remembers Him in this meal of bread and the cup.
But he's offering to us His body as in the form of bread, as this picture of the labor that Jesus has taken on, the curse that Jesus has taken on so that we can then live in freedom. And so, we're still currently living in this sort of in-between time where we know that Jesus, that Christ has died, that Christ is risen, and we are still awaiting the day when Christ will come again. We're still awaiting this imagery in the book of Revelation where creation is restored.
And I believe our relationship to bread will purely be one of delight and joy and freedom. But right now, we do still experience that brokenness of creation in relationship to bread. But also, bread is still a way in which we can know God, in which we can trust God's promises to us in this very tangible form in which we can believe that God is with us, even when we don't feel it.
Laura Dugger: (19:43 - 22:17)
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In line with your brand of edible theology, I'd love to go further into the scripture. That was so fascinating. I feel like you're so succinct in the way that you put that all together.
So, I kind of want to do a deeper dive into a couple of the key ingredients of bread and then have you share their significance both in contributing to food, but also their significance for our own lives. Absolutely. Let's just begin with salt.
Will you share the scripture and insight into salt?
Kendall Vanderslice: (22:18 - 23:20)
Yeah. One of the things that I love about salt, I think oftentimes, especially here in America, we have a sort of distorted understanding of the role that salt plays in our food. Oftentimes, we treat table salt.
We usually have table salt that you just add onto your food after cooking it. Maybe you add a little bit of salt while cooking, but for the most part, you just sprinkle on table salt after. And it almost is treated as this kind of added flavor.
But salt actually should not be this added flavor at the end. Salt should be incorporated into the cooking process because salt opens up our taste receptors on our tongues, and it opens up the flavors in the dish. So, salt actually should not be the predominant flavor that we taste.
Salt should be the thing that allows us to taste everything else. And I think when we understand salt in that form, it should reframe our understanding of what it means to be the salt of the earth or to be salt and light in the world. What does it mean that salt is not the thing that itself gets tasted, but salt is the thing that opens up the flavors of everything else around us?
Laura Dugger: (23:20 - 23:30)
Kendall, can you take that even a step further? What does that practically look like for believers really living as salt of the earth?
Kendall Vanderslice: (23:34 - 24:26)
I think one of the great joys of the ways that these metaphors at work in Scripture is that we get to continually explore and see what that means for us and where God might be calling us. But I do think that being aware that to be the salt of the earth is to help pull out the best in the communities around us, to pull out the best in the people around us, is just this really beautiful picture of how I think God asks us to work in community. But our job is not necessarily to be the strong presence.
Our job is not necessarily to make sure everyone knows that we are present, but instead our job is to identify and build up and pull out the best parts of the people around us in the communities that we are in.
Laura Dugger: (24:27 - 24:56)
That's so good. I love how you shared that because for me, as you were unpacking it, I was just thinking that we as the salt, when you taste it, you don't want to think, oh, that's salt. You want, like you said, to open it up to others.
And so that's our purpose is to reflect and glorify Jesus and to point to him. So, I'm sure there's countless meanings. Will you also do the same thing and share the significance of yeast?
Kendall Vanderslice: (24:57 - 29:44)
Yeah, sure. So, yeast is, you know, also a fascinating, fascinating thing. And we are only really just beginning to understand sort of the microbial world and the role that it plays in our lives, in our bodies, in our world.
And so, it's opening up entirely new understandings of how yeast is at work in scripture. One thing that we have to bear in mind is that the writers of scripture did not actually know what yeast was. We were only able to identify the microbes that are yeast and bacteria in the last 150 years.
And so, prior to Louis Pasteur, humans didn't know what yeast was. They only knew the reactions of yeast. You know, you saw if I mix together, you know, this, if I let this flour and water sit, it comes back to life and I can mix that into more flour and water and it can become bread.
You know, I can mix it in with a lot of water and a little bit of yeast and some hops and it becomes beer. I can mix it in with grapes and it becomes wine. So, we see the reactions, but don't necessarily know what it is that is responsible for those reactions.
So, it is fairly new that we have this, you know, in the scope of human history, it's fairly new that we have this understanding of what are the actual kind of little critters that are involved in this process. And so, I have a really dear friend who she studies theology of the microbiome. So, a lot of her research is all based around, you know, how does this emerging research on yeast and bacteria shape our understanding of what it means to be human?
And so then how does that shape the ways we read in scripture, both passages about yeast and also about what it means to be human? And so it is, I think there's just, it's a field that is ripe for exploration and we are only beginning to scratch the surface of all the beautiful imagery that's at play here. But one of the things that I find most fascinating is that leaven or yeast, it is used as a metaphor for two different things in scripture.
In one passage, it is used as a metaphor for the kingdom of heaven, the parable of leaven, the kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman mixed into three measures of flour until it leavened the whole batch. But apart from that, yeast is always used as an image of sin, the ways that sin works through community. We have the passage about the leaven of the Pharisees.
I believe there are a few others as well. So oftentimes leaven is used as this picture of sin and the ways that sin sort of multiplies and works through communities. But at the same time, it's this picture of the kingdom of God, that it's this little bit of yeast that slowly multiplies and through its multiplication, it transforms the entire community.
It seems like a strange sort of tension that why would we use the same thing as a picture of both the kingdom of heaven and a picture of sin? And I think it makes more sense when we understand a sourdough culture. So, a sourdough culture is a culture of bacteria and yeast that is used to leaven bread, to raise bread.
So, we all have wild yeast and bacteria living in the air, on the surface of our skin, on the surface of everything around us. This wild yeast and bacteria is what makes the world go round. It's what makes our brains function.
It's what allows our bellies to digest food. It is what sort of makes everything work. And there is always this presence of both pathogenic bacteria and also beneficial bacteria.
That is true within our bodies. That's true sort of all around us. It's true in the sourdough culture that there is always the presence of pathogenic bacteria, but there is also the beneficial bacteria.
And so, to maintain a healthy sourdough starter, you have to feed it regularly. And as long as you feed it regularly and maintain its health, that good bacteria is going to keep the pathogenic bacteria in check. It's when you start to starve that starter that the pathogenic bacteria gets stronger and it overtakes the good bacteria and your sourdough starter goes bad.
And so, I think that's a really beautiful way to think about both how the kingdom of God works and also how sin works in our communities. We live in a broken creation. Sin will always be present.
But when we are digging ourselves, like when we are staying grounded and rooted in scripture, when we're staying grounded and rooted in church community and worship and prayer, when we are maintaining these healthy communities that are rooted to God, then we're able to help keep that pathogenic bacteria, that sin in check. But it's when we do not that it can start to take over and it can spread through a community just as quickly and easily as the kingdom of God can also spread through a community.
Laura Dugger: (29:45 - 29:58)
You just have brilliant answers. Is there any other science in the bread baking that is also fascinating to you because it has a richer, deeper spiritual meaning?
Kendall Vanderslice: (29:58 - 32:22)
One of the things that I love, I oftentimes lead these bread baking workshops for groups of leaders, especially church leaders or faith leaders who are oftentimes having to manage just large groups of people where they're constantly facing internal conflict. I don't think anyone who leads a group of people has managed to bring together the people that never have any kind of disagreement. One of the things that I love about bread is that inherent to the structure of bread is tension.
The backbone of bread is this protein called gluten that is made up of two different proteins called gluten and gliadin. Gluten and gliadin have two opposing qualities to them. One likes to stretch and stretch and stretch.
It's what's called the elastic quality. One likes to hold its shape, what's called the plastic quality. When these protein strands unravel, they begin to form bonds with one another and they create this network, this protein network.
That protein network is what captures the carbon dioxide that the yeast releases and that allows the dough to both grow while also holding its shape. The strength and the structure of our bread is fully reliant on tension between these two opposing qualities, these two opposing needs. In order to build that tension in a way that brings strength to the bread, it has to be constantly balanced with rest.
The gluten will let you know when it's starting to get tired. If you don't give it time to rest, then it will just fall apart. It will start to break down on you.
This is something that I think so many of our communities really can learn from right now. That tension is good, that our differences, that diversity in our communities is our source of strength. When these differences rub up against one another and they help expand our understanding of the people around us, our differing needs, our differing convictions, our differing desires, our differing hopes, that can be a source of strength in our communities.
Also, we need to understand when it's time to step away and take time to rest before leaning into those differences even further. I love that bread then is itself this element that Jesus gives us as the sign of our unity in Christ, because it is this picture of our differences coming together and making us one even in our difference.
Laura Dugger: (32:23 - 32:39)
All of this from bread, it's just incredible. Then I even think you write about temperature and scoring the bread. Is there anything else?
We won't get to cover all of it, but any other scientific findings that have been really exciting?
Kendall Vanderslice: (32:40 - 33:33)
I think there is so much in bread. I like to say that bread is incredibly simple and infinitely complex. It's made of four basic ingredients, but it can be mixed together in myriad ways.
A baker can commit their entire lives to learning about bread, and they will still have more to learn. We'll never be able to cover it all. I think there's room for endless exploration as far as digging into all that bread has to teach us.
My hope is that this book, Bake and Pray, helps to start to illuminate some of the ways that we see God teaching us through the many different steps in the bread-baking process. I also hope that others will start to get into this practice of baking, and through the practice of baking, they themselves will be able to start to see some of the beauty that God reveals through bread.
Laura Dugger: (33:34 - 34:38)
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Well, and Kendall, you also have a unique take. You spent years as a ballet dancer, and even with your books, you're just writing about the connection beyond, like you said, just our intellect and our minds to the Lord, but using our whole bodies to glorify God. Can you share some more ways that we can use our bodies to bake and pray and glorify God?
Kendall Vanderslice: (34:38 - 39:09)
Yeah, so one of the things that I love when I'm first teaching people about this idea of praying with your body, it is ironic. The whole concept of praying with your body is to try and get us out of our minds and into our bodies. But the idea of praying with our body can feel like a very sort of cerebral or like, you know, the sort of thing that doesn't quite make sense.
And so, the way that I like to help people first get started is through the practice of a breath prayer. So, a breath prayer is a practice of repeating a line of scripture or poetry with every inhale and every exhale. And so, one of the ones that I love to start with is my soul finds rest in God alone, drawn from the Psalms.
And so, as you inhale, you repeat my soul finds rest. And as you exhale in God alone. And so, when I'm guiding others through this bake and pray practice, I have a start by just closing our eyes and I will lead us in this rhythm of breathing and of repeating this line again and again and again.
And then from there, I encourage the group to start to mix up their dough while repeating this line with every inhale and exhale. And I think it helps us to see how our breath, our breath itself becomes, you know, these words of scripture so ingrain themselves in our breathing that we then understand our breathing itself as an offering of prayer to God. And then the movements of our bodies through this rhythm of breathing becomes an offering of prayer to God.
And then we realize that the words themselves are not even necessary, that we can offer, you know, the movements of mixing bread dough, but also of gardening, of knitting, of cooking, of playing with our children, of raking leaves, that all of these things can be ways to offer our movements to God as prayer and to invite God into this practice with us and to pay attention to how God is present in these practices. So, I do hope that, you know, people will take bake and pray and actually bake with it and learn to bake as a form of prayer. But I also love when I hear from potters or I hear from gardeners or I hear from other people that work with their hands regularly who tell me, I read this and I don't think I'm going to start baking, but it has reshaped my understanding of my own, you know, craft and my own vocation.
So, I am excited to hear from others who maybe will take this and say, like, this is how I see this work being a form of prayer. But I first started learning about embodied prayer and practicing it when I got to college. I was in a dance team at my college.
I had grown up as a ballerina. I left the ballet world in high school, and it was a really, really hard. My experience was really wonderful in many ways and really hard in many ways.
I was in the pre-professional ballet world, which is, you know, very, very rigorous, very mentally draining, very physically demanding. And when I realized that I wasn't going to be able to make it professionally, it was just absolutely devastating. It was like my whole world was wrapped around this.
And so, then when I got to college, I was invited to be a part of this dance company. But the dance company was for women who had experienced sort of the ballet world in the way that I had, and who were looking for healing and to understand that our dance could be a form of worship and a form of prayer. And when I first started, I thought that the whole concept was really strange.
You know, I was I did not understand. I was so grateful to have this very just affirming community that I was dancing with. It was really it was the first time that I had been, you know, affirmed in my body and affirmed as a dancer and not just, you know, told all the things that were wrong with me.
But still, I was like, this is a really strange concept that as we're dancing, we're somehow praying. And it really was something that I had to practice again and again and again to understand and to really feel. And so, if someone is listening to this and thinking like this sounds like a really strange concept, I encourage you to just try it.
And it might take a few tries. Maybe try using the liturgies that are in the book to help get you into that practice. And then I hope that as you practice, either praying through baking or through gardening or what have you, that you will just get to experience the ways that God's present with you.
And then that will transform your understanding of your craft.
Laura Dugger: (39:09 - 39:20)
Thanks for sharing that. It's important for us to understand that we are embodied beings. And that points to that awesome truth that God with us, that Jesus was embodied.
Kendall Vanderslice: (39:21 - 39:22)
Absolutely.
Laura Dugger: (39:22 - 39:31)
But then, OK, so in your most recent book, Bake and Pray, what's one recipe that you're especially excited about?
Kendall Vanderslice: (39:31 - 41:04)
You know, we are just emerging from the season of Advent and Christmas, and those are some of my favorite recipes in the book. One that is so delicious, that is it is a Christmas recipe. It is the Moravian sugar cake, but Moravians do eat the sugar cake all year round.
So, it is kind of a classical Christmas recipe. But here at the Moravian bakeries here in North Carolina, you can get them all year round. So Moravian baked goods are an early Protestant tradition. They actually were Protestants before the Protestant Reformation, they like to say. And they're a pretty small denomination here in the United States.
But they're largely focused in here in North Carolina, where I am, and then a little bit in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. But the Moravian baked goods are known for all of their breads have potato in them. And so, some people, you know, there are other recipes that have like a potato, a potato bread or potato rolls.
When you add mashed potato into baked goods, it makes it really, really moist and tender. It holds on to moisture in the baked good much longer than just flour alone. So, the Moravian baked goods all have mashed potato in them.
But the Moravian sugar cake is one where it's this very rich potato bread. And then you put it into a pan, and you poke holes in it, sort of like if you were dimpling focaccia. And then you pour butter and cinnamon sugar on top and bake it.
And it is like it is a mix between sort of coffee cake and bread. And it is so, so, so delicious. I love it.
Laura Dugger: (41:04 - 41:09)
And there is also just a cute little story in there with the history.
Kendall Vanderslice: (41:09 - 41:28)
Oh, yes, absolutely. It is, you know, there's this lore that apparently when men were looking for wives, they would look for women that had thick fingers. Because if they had thick fingers, it meant that they would have bigger dimples in their Moravian sugar cake that would hold bigger pockets of cinnamon and sugar.
Laura Dugger: (41:28 - 41:42)
I love that. I thought that was so funny. Well, Kendall, what are some of the most creative ways that you've been able to pair bread and generosity together to minister to others?
Kendall Vanderslice: (41:43 - 43:24)
Yeah, one of the things that I am doing right now is, you know, I'm on the road several weeks of the year leading bread baking workshops in churches all over the country. And I love, love, love that part of my work. But in the last year, I started to really crave a closer connection with my community here in Durham, North Carolina.
But I am traveling the country and telling other people about how to connect to home and how to connect to their communities. And that work keeps me from being able to connect to my own home and community. And so, I decided that when I am home, I want to have a more intentional way of feeding the people immediately around me.
And so, I have this practice on Fridays of bread for friends and neighbors. And so, I'll tell, I'll send out an email to friends and neighbors on Monday and tell them, you know, here's what I'm baking this week if I'm in town. And then they let me know what they want.
And on Fridays, I have this shed in my driveway that I open up and it's got this whole like really fun armoire and that I that I've sort of decorated to be a bread pickup area. And so, on Fridays, my neighbors and my friends all walk over, and they come pick up their bread. And it's just been such a gift to be able to feed my immediate community through bread.
But then also to see and hear them sort of connecting in the driveway as they all come pick up their bread at the same time. And folks who either didn't know one another are starting to connect and find and meet one another. But then also neighbors to realize like, oh, you can get kindle bread, I get kindle bread.
And, you know, it's just so fun to have that very simple point of connection, because it can be feel very easy to feel disconnected from the neighbors that you maybe see all over the place. But just that that time of connection and picking up bread, I think, goes a long way beyond just that particular moment.
Laura Dugger: (43:26 - 43:36)
Generosity is always inspiring. And where can we all go to learn more about edible theology online or all of the other things that you have to offer?
Kendall Vanderslice: (43:37 - 44:05)
You can learn more at my website, kendallvanderslice.com. The website is currently sort of under construction. So, I've got a makeshift website up right now where you can find everything.
And eventually I will have more links to all of the edible theology resources. But you can find everything you need at kendallvanderslice.com. You can learn about my workshops. You can learn about my books. You can learn about curriculum, about retreats that I lead. All of it is right there.
Laura Dugger: (44:06 - 44:24)
Wonderful. We will certainly add links in today's show notes so that it's easy to find. And Kendall, you may be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge.
And so is my final question for you today. What is your savvy sauce?
Kendall Vanderslice: (44:25 - 45:13)
Well, I think for me it is allowing myself to use even the simplest moments in the kitchen as a time for prayer rather than trying to rush through the practice of just seeing food as something I have to eat three times a day and something I have to make for myself. To realize that even something as simple as heating up a pot of soup or slicing some bread and smearing it with butter is still an invitation to thank God for this gift of food and the ability to prepare it. And so, I think that small practice alone can transform the way we relate to food and our bodies, but also to try and slow down and have a moment in our day where we avoid just rushing through and take a little bit more intentionality to appreciate the gifts that God has given us.
Laura Dugger: (45:14 - 45:31)
Well, Kendall, I was so intrigued from the first time that I heard about edible theology. And I really appreciate how you shed light on God's profound spiritual truths that are around us and that we can interact with in everyday life. But you also have such a charming personality.
Kendall Vanderslice: (45:32 - 45:38)
So, thank you for being my guest. Thank you so much for having me. It's been such a delight to be here.
Laura Dugger: (45:39 – 49:21)
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?
It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?
Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?
We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.
We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.
Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.
I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.
I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Apr 21, 2025
Monday Apr 21, 2025
*DISCLAIMER* This episode covers adult topics that are not intended for young ears.
260. Sex After Cancer with Dr. Kris Christiansen
James 1:19 (NIV) My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry,
**Transcription Below**
Questions We Discuss:
- What is common mis-information that you want to set straight as it relates to cancer and sex?
- If someone is walking their own cancer journey right now, what would you advise them to both do and avoid doing so that they can still enjoy the healthiest sex life possible with their spouse?
- What hope do you have to share with people who have battled cancer and still desire to connect intimately with their spouse?
Dr. Kris Christiansen is a board-certified family physician who specializes in sexual medicine. She attended medical school and completed her residency in family medicine at the University of Minnesota. She practiced full spectrum family medicine for 10 years and then pursued additional training to specialize in sexual medicine. She works as a sexual medicine specialist at two different clinics in the twin cities.
Her clinical interests include both male and female sexual dysfunction, and she loves working with individuals and couples to restore an important part of life. Dr. Christiansen is involved with teaching medical students and residents at the University of Minnesota Medical School, and she has presented at multiple local, national, and international medical conferences. She is involved with the International Society for the Study of Women’s Sexual Health (ISSWSH) and serves on committees, collaborates with other experts to publish articles for medical journals, and edits informational articles for the society’s new patient facing website. She is passionate about teaching patients, students, and colleagues about the importance of sexual health and well-being. In her free time, she started her own business called Intimate Focus which provides information and quality products to enhance and restore sexual health and wellness. She also enjoys shopping, hiking, and spending time with her family.
Dr. Kris Christiansen's Website
Previous Episodes featuring Dr. Kris Christiansen on The Savvy Sauce:
215 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part One with Dr. Kris Christiansen
216 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part Two with Dr. Kris Christiansen
Additional Place to Find More Episodes from The Savvy Sauce Related to This Topic:
One-Stop Shop for Marriage and Intimacy Resources
Dr. Kris Christiansen's Recommended Websites for Sexual Health:
International Society for the Study of Women’s Sexual Health
American Urological Association
International Society of Sexual Medicine
Sexual Medicine Society of North America
ISSWSH International Society for the Study of Women's Sexual Health
SMSNA Sexual Medicine Society of North America
ISSM International Society of Sexual Medicine
Find a provider:
For a women's sexual health provider, pelvic floor physical therapist, (non-Christian) sex therapist
ABCST American Board of Christian Sex Therapists (for a Christian sex therapist)
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Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:22)
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
Leman Property Management Co. has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois.
Visit them today at lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.
Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
Not many people specialize in the same thing as our returning guest for today, Dr. Kris Christiansen. She specializes in sexual medicine, and today she's going to provide clarity, information, and direction for how to maximize sexual pleasure with our spouse after one receives a cancer diagnosis. Here's our chat.
Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Christiansen.
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (1:23 - 1:30)
Well, thank you so much, Laura. We had so much fun last time, and I'm looking forward to this conversation again today.
Laura Dugger: (1:31 - 1:57)
Likewise. I feel the same way. And it really wasn't that long ago that you were on The Savvy Sauce two times, so I'll make sure and link to both of those episodes in the show notes for today.
But hopefully everybody's already well acquainted with you, and that's why we're just kind of diving right into our topic today. So, for starters, how did this topic of sex after cancer become an interest of yours to study?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (2:00 - 2:32)
Well, so Laura, my job as a sexual medicine physician is that I work with both men and women and helping them with their sexual lives when they have problems or whatever. So, cancer is often a big part of that. So, through my journey with work, I've just developed a significant interest in learning how to really care for people to help restore this important part of life.
Laura Dugger: (2:33 - 2:52)
Absolutely, because a lot is taken away when somebody gets that awful diagnosis, and so I'm very grateful for people like you who are experts. But is there any common misinformation that you would like to set straight as it relates to cancer and sex?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (2:55 - 6:42)
Well, interesting you say that, because there is so much misinformation out there just about sex in general. And then when we throw cancer in on top of that, it just makes it even more complicated. So, I think a common fear that people experience when they get that diagnosis that they hope they never hear, the C word, is that it's going to have a significant impact on their sexual intimacy.
And you know what, it can, but that doesn't mean that that chapter in life is closed. We just have to remember that sexual intimacy is much, much broader than just intercourse. So, if we can refer to this as PIV sex, penis in vagina sex, many people view it as kind of an all or none thing.
If they can't have vaginal intercourse or that PIV sex, then they don't want anything at all. Unfortunately, that just rules out or shuts out so much of sexual intimacy that God has intended for us. We may not be able to engage in the same activities for a time or even long term, but that doesn't mean that we can't connect.
So, if we try to remember that intimacy, sexual intimacy is all about giving and receiving pleasure, then there are so many more opportunities. So, we have to get beyond the fact that sexual intimacy, sexual intercourse is just vaginal intercourse because it's not. It's giving and receiving pleasure.
And however people want to connect or comfortable connecting, that they can still enjoy a very fruitful sex life. The other thing that is misunderstood and misconceptions is estrogen, vaginal estrogen, especially. Because, well, all women who enter menopause and you're in menopause for the rest of your life do experience some changes.
And it's so common that women experience the genital urinary syndrome of menopause. That's vaginal atrophy, or when the tissues get drier and thinner and there can be tearing and pain as well as bleeding and decreased sensation, decreased sensitivity. These things are common with aging, but oftentimes cancer treatments emphasize that or accelerate it or make it even worse.
And vaginal estrogen is really, really safe. It does not cause cancer. And most of the studies show that even in women who have breast cancer, that it doesn't cause recurrence.
So vaginal estrogen, being so safe, can really save our vaginas. And we're talking about vaginal health and bladder health. It's not just about sex, but it helps keep our bodies functioning properly and minimizing pain and discomfort.
So, if a woman is diagnosed with breast cancer and she's on treatment, then obviously we have to talk to the oncologist, make sure they're okay with that. But we get more and more studies showing it's safety and it's definitely effective and can help keep our tissues young.
Laura Dugger: (6:42 - 7:25)
This is really helpful and brand new information to me. So someone, like you used that example, if they have breast cancer diagnosis and there's different types, but if they're doing the treatment where perhaps they go into early menopause or they have a hysterectomy or remove their ovaries and they even have an estrogen blocker so that they're not producing estrogen, for that type, you're still saying as long as you're working with the oncologist for that personal client, even in those situations, vaginal estrogen, which would be, I'm assuming, more of a cream or something you insert to the vagina, is that right? That that would be safe?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (7:25 - 10:55)
So, where it gets a little gray is if the woman is taking an aromatase inhibitor, which is the estrogen blocker. So, it pretty much wipes all estrogen out of her system. There's a little more risk there.
So most definitely we need to double check with the oncologist. But it often comes down to quality of life. I have a patient who, she was diagnosed with breast cancer, I believe, in her early 60s.
And she came to me at the sexual medicine clinic and she was just miserable. I mean, when we think of vaginal dryness, you think of, okay, it's annoying. You use a lubricant, right, and it's going to be just fine.
In the beginning, yes, that's the case. But this genital urinary syndrome of menopause, GSM, gets worse with time, especially with those anti-estrogen treatments. And for this poor woman, she couldn't exercise.
She loved to go hiking. She loved to go skiing. And just any kind of movement was painful.
And we don't think of that. We kind of take it for granted. But for some women who really experience severe side effects of the breast cancer treatments and causing dryness and irritation, it affects everything.
And for her, we tried all the non-hormonal things first. They didn't work. And her oncologist gave us the blessing saying, you know, we tried it.
This is really important to you. Let's give it a try. And so, we've monitored her, and the vaginal estrogen hasn't caused any problems.
So, a couple points on that. With the vaginal estrogen, yes, it comes as a cream. There's a tablet, which is like a little pill with an applicator that you insert in the vagina.
There are vaginal inserts. They look like little caplets that you just insert with the finger. There's a vaginal ring.
But with the localized treatment, it's meant to just act locally, meaning just on the vaginal tissues. And, oh, package insert. So, you know, here we tell patients, vaginal estrogen is safe.
Don't worry. It's not going to cause cancer, heart attack, strokes, or blood clots. But then they go home.
They get their prescription. They open up the patient insert, package insert, and it talks about risks and bad things that can happen and side effects. Unfortunately, the FDA says we have to use the class labeling or the side effects that are associated with systemic estrogen.
And it automatically gets applied to the localized or vaginal estrogen treatments. So, patients go home, they read that, and they think we're lying to them. But, unfortunately, it's just very misleading because we have plenty of studies to show that vaginal estrogen doesn't cause those terrible things.
And it's very safe. So, they just have to trust us. And there are groups and people out there trying to work with the FDA to get that class labeling effect removed because it just scares everybody away from using estrogen, which can be so helpful.
Laura Dugger: (10:57 - 11:04)
Wow, that is helpful. Is there any other common misinformation you want to make sure we don't overlook before we continue on?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (11:05 - 11:29)
Well, I made a few notes here. No, I don't think so. Except that media, television, and all that other stuff that we see out there is so misleading when it comes to sexual intimacy.
Because sex in real life doesn't look like what you see in the movies. Yeah.
Laura Dugger: (11:30 - 11:45)
Great, great point. And so, when somebody does get, like you said, that dreaded C-word diagnosis, what's a common path that they may experience as it affects them sexually?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (11:48 - 14:00)
Well, so, the different cancers are so different and treatments are so different that it's hard to generalize for everybody. But, you know, first thing most people experience is fear. What's this mean for me?
What's this mean for my life, my family? Am I going to be around in five years? So, it's that fear.
And the initial part of that journey is often involved with meeting with lots of doctors, having all the tests, trying to figure out what's going on, what we're going to do. And sexual intimacy often isn't part of that first steps that they take. So, but when things kind of finally settle down, then those questions start popping up.
What does this mean? It's important to talk with your cancer journey, your cancer team, the oncology team to find out what's going on. And it's important to ask all these questions because doctors really aren't very good about asking about sexual health and what that means to you.
Oncologists, generally speaking, they want to treat the cancer and their job is done when the cancer is treated, under control, gone, whatever. And they've done a good job. However, so many of us are just left afterwards saying, okay, thanks, cancer's gone, but now what?
And so, it's a matter of really trying to figure out what's important over time, learning what's going to work and what's not. And know that there are people out there to help you and that want to help you if it's not going as planned. You know, I just want to reiterate that people really need to advocate for themselves and they need to ask questions.
And if they're not getting the answers that they want, don't give up because there are people, organizations, information out there that can be helpful. So rather than just worrying about what's next, seek help.
Laura Dugger: (14:02 - 14:18)
That's really great advice. And I think this may be an appropriate place to pause and just get some of those recommended places. Because if somebody, this is new to them and they don't know where to turn, do you have any places or websites off the top of your mind that you would recommend?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (14:20 - 15:41)
Well, so cancer.org, the American Cancer Society has a lot of resources on there. When it comes to menopause-type symptoms and such, menopause.org is the Menopause Society, which has a lot of information. And a website called PROSAYLA, it's P-R-O-S-A-Y-L-A.com, is a website that's managed by ISHWISH.
We've got all these acronyms. The International Society for the Study of Women's Sexual Health. So that is my go-to.
Okay, so that's the organization where there's so much research and science and such happening. And the PROSAYLA.org or prosayla.com, either one works, is a website where there are several articles written by experts in the field. So, these are articles backed by science.
It's not just somebody's opinion or somebody's blog. And I know there's an article on there about sex or cancer and sexuality. So, some generalities and some other references on that site too.
Laura Dugger: (15:42 - 15:51)
Okay, that is super helpful information. We'll make sure and add links to those places as well. Anything else that you want to make sure we don't miss?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (15:52 - 17:36)
Well, when we talk about sexual concerns or sexual problems, we always try to approach it from a biopsychosocial aspect. Because those three different entities all play a big role in what works well and what doesn't. So, from the biological section, that's pain, medications, nerve problems, chronic medical problems.
So obviously cancer plays a big role in that. And with cancer treatments and such, pain may be part of that, nausea, fatigue. And so, we just don't feel the same going through these treatments because it's really hard.
As far as the psych bubble, I'm usually referencing a Venn diagram here. Psychological, so when we experience anxiety or depression or performance anxiety, that plays a big role. So, we need to take a step back and realize that what happens up here in our brain has a huge impact on how our bodies function physically.
And then as far as the social aspect, that's our relationships, our interpersonal relationships with our partner, our spouse, with our family and how things are going on at work. A cancer diagnosis and treatment can affect all of those. And so, it's not just a magic pill to improve your libido because if we don't treat all these other things, people continue to struggle with their sexual function.
Laura Dugger: (18:01 - 19:46)
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Also, Dr. Kris, are there any certain cancers or treatments that have the most detrimental impact on a person's sex life?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (19:48 - 23:15)
We know that cancers that affect the breast, for women, but men too get breast cancer, and also the genital area have the biggest impact. We've talked a fair amount about breast cancer. Many of the treatments for breast cancer result in early menopause.
If a woman is premenopausal when this happens, menopause can have a definite impact. The treatments can cause the pain and dryness and decrease sensitivity. Also, if surgery is involved in a mastectomy, it can affect our own body self-image.
From a more physical standpoint too, when we have the mastectomy and those nerves are cut, it decreases the sensitivity. For a lot of women, breast stimulation is really important as part of their sexual play. If now her breasts are gone and she can't feel anything when her husband is touching her breasts, that can be a really hard adjustment.
Any cancers that affect the genital area, uterine cancer, ovarian cancer, or anal rectal cancer for both men and women, and prostate cancer for men, those all have a huge impact. In addition to working with a lot of women who have breast cancer and overcoming and improving those areas, I work with a lot of men who have prostate cancer. Those treatments usually result in erection problems and urinary incontinence, which can be hard to deal with.
Men who have a prostatectomy, so if they have their prostate removed, then 100% of them are going to have erectile dysfunction in the beginning. It's going to take time for those nerves to recover, and it may take up to two years to see that full recovery. In those first few months when I'm working with men, I'm trying to be their cheerleader, saying, don't lose hope, don't give up, because this is going to get better.
It just takes time for those nerves to regrow. In the process, though, it is important to do whatever we can to make sure that that tissue stays healthy. Remember that the penis is actually muscle, muscle tissue, smooth muscle.
If we don't use a muscle for several months, atrophy sets in, which is a bad thing. With atrophy, the penis can shrink in size, and scar tissue potentially can set in, and it just makes that recovery less optimal than what it would have been. Trying to maintain the blood flow during those first few months or first year is really helpful.
Just to help maintain the blood flow and the oxygen to help keep the tissues healthy, so when the tenders do recover as best as they're going to, we get the best outcome.
Laura Dugger: (23:16 - 23:36)
This may be an ignorant question, but then if erectile issues are present during that first time period, but it's crucial to have the blood flow to that area, what can men do to increase blood flow there, even if erection is difficult or impossible?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (23:36 - 25:01)
That's a great question. Taking a medication like Viagra or Cialis. Cialis is my favorite because it stays in the system for a good 36 to 48 hours every time you take it.
If you're just taking a low dose every day, it just encourages a little bit of that blood flow every day. Using a vacuum device, which I just happen to have one right here, looks like this. A penis goes inside the cylinder, we create a vacuum or suction, and it pulls the blood flow in.
It's not the most sexy thing, but using it and using the vacuum device several times a week just to get that blood flow going is a very helpful way to keep the tissues healthy. Getting an erection with the vacuum doesn't get those arousal-type feelings, so it looks a little weird, but it does work. For men who want to use this for sexual activity, you can get the erection within the tube, and then it comes with these tight rings that are stretched over the edge of the cylinder.
Once you get the full erection within the tube, you slide that ring off to maintain the erection.
Laura Dugger: (25:04 - 25:14)
That's incredible just to pause and think of God's grace and these inventions and how incredible that there are solutions. Please continue, but I find that encouraging.
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (25:16 - 27:39)
There are all kinds of encouraging things, but if you're in the middle of this journey, it can be sometimes hard to keep going when you're not getting the results that you want to. But we believe in a big God, and he created sexual intimacy, and it's a gift. Other ways to help manage erectile dysfunction and a couple other show-and-tell things here.
This medication is called Muse. The actual medication is a pellet that comes preloaded in this applicator. You insert it in the tip of the penis, the medication gets absorbed, and 10 minutes later, magic happens.
I don't prescribe this very often because it's really, really expensive, a little harder to find. But the advantage to this medication is that it doesn't need the nerves to work, whereas the medications like Viagra and Cialis, they need the nerves. Guys usually kind of turn white when I pull this out.
For our listeners, I'm holding an insulin syringe and needle. There is such a treatment where you can actually inject a tiny amount of medicine directly into the penis, and it will give you an erection. I tell men that with the pills like Viagra and Cialis, just in general with ED, it works in about 60% of men.
We can get this to work, the injections to work, in 90-95%. It's such a tiny needle that men say it feels like a poke or a pinch once they get past that initial shock that they think is going to hurt. The usual response is, oh, that wasn't so bad, and it's very effective.
This can work within four to six weeks, so whenever your surgeon says it's okay to engage in sexual activity again, this will work. Then last but not least is a penile implant. That's surgery, and that you have to wait at least a year, if not two, after the prostate surgery.
That works in 99.99%. Wow.
Laura Dugger: (27:40 - 27:56)
We were focusing a lot on men for that one. Is there any medication or any other injections or anything like that for women, other than the vaginal cream or different ways to get estrogen in the vagina?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (27:58 - 31:15)
Yes, we've got all kinds of treatments. If a woman has breast cancer, or for whatever reason we want to avoid hormones as much as possible, then generally we're starting with a vaginal moisturizer, which is different than a lubricant. A lubricant is just for sexual activity and just to make things slipperier and feel better.
That often helps in the beginning, but as the GSM or the atrophy continues, the lubricant isn't enough. A moisturizer, think of like a facial moisturizer or a moisturizer for your hand, in order for it to work, you have to use it regularly, which is probably at least three times a week. These moisturizers can come in forms of a liquid that gets injected.
They're little capsules that you can insert. Reveri is a hyaluronic acid suppository, which you insert in the vagina and over time that can be really helpful. One of my favorites is this Rosebud Everyday Balm.
It's a really nice balm that you can put on the tissues inside the lips and inside the vagina. It's just really, really soothing. Again, you've got to use these things regularly.
It will take a good two months at least to see the full effect, so it doesn't work right away. Just like with the guys where they've got to be patient with the nerves, we have to be persistent and patient with things that can work. A vaginal moisturizer is really helpful.
A lubricant for sexual activity. There are over-the-counter and prescription medications that can help with arousal and orgasm. There are two approved medications for the treatment of low libido in premenopausal women.
One is Addi, which is a pill that you take every day, also known as the pink pill. Another treatment is Vilece, which is an injection. It comes in a pen, so you never see the needle and really don't feel the needle.
You give it to yourself about 45 minutes to an hour before sexual activity. Both of these medications are working on the brain chemistry because the brain is the biggest sex organ in the body. It's the most important sex organ.
It works on the brain chemistry and improving the dopamine and norepinephrine and the good sex positive hormones. Like I said, it's only approved for premenopausal women, but many of us do prescribe it for postmenopausal women. We have studies to show that it's safe and it's effective.
The drug companies didn't go through with all the rigmarole they had to do to get the FDA-approved indication for that. We've got all kinds of tricks up our sleeve.
Laura Dugger: (31:16 - 31:26)
Absolutely. Just piggybacking on that, they wouldn't oftentimes follow through on all those studies, would you say primarily because of financial restraints?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (31:27 - 31:41)
Totally. To get a medication approved for female sexual function, it's multi-million, if not a billion dollars. Studies and everything that needs to be done, it's crazy.
That's why these meds are so expensive.
Laura Dugger: (31:42 - 32:14)
Then you also mentioned earlier bringing in the quality of life. There are so many options to consider, but such a personal basis. I had another question that arose.
You kind of were answering that because this one works with the brain chemistry. I'm thinking the body parts may be functioning and you can do different things to have an erection or be aroused with your genitalia, but how is desire affected with cancer?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (32:16 - 35:03)
It's huge, unfortunately. Again, if we go back to that biopsychosocial model and for everything to work well, everything's got to be working well. If we have pain, of course that drives down desire.
We use the analogy of putting your hand on a hot stove. Pain with sex can hurt just as badly as that. I have women tell me it's 10 out of 10 pain feels like shards of glass.
Obviously, that's not pleasant. If we compare that to putting your hand on a hot stove, why in the world would you want to do that? We've got to take care of the pain.
When it comes to pain, it becomes imprinted in the brain and the body responds by just amplifying that pain. You've got more pain and you have less desire. Part of GSM or surgery or chemotherapy and other treatments, radiation, can affect the nerves.
We don't get those positive sensations and the arousal anymore. There's arousal in the brain as well as arousal in the genital area. If we're not getting that positive feedback that this just isn't fun anymore, it's hard to get enthused about engaging in that.
Sex therapy can be really helpful. Sex therapy isn't going to fix thin tissues, but a sex therapist is very skilled and trained at working with people and working with couples on trying to process this, working through the process and the changes that are happening. Sometimes it is a permanent change in sexual function, so there's grief involved.
Helping to process through some of that is really important. But again, if we take a step back and remember that sexual intimacy is more than just PIV sex, that there are all kinds of ways to be able to give and receive pleasure, as long as each person is comfortable with this. And moving beyond the thinking that, well, if I can't have intercourse, I'm not going to have anything at all, then that may mean you might not have anything at all for the rest of your life.
That makes me sad. We just have to take a step back, work through some of this, because it's a journey, it's a cancer journey, it's an aging journey, and try to make the most of it.
Laura Dugger: (35:04 - 36:32)
I want to make sure that you're up to date with our latest news. We have a new website. You can visit thesavvysauce.com and see all of the latest updates. You may remember Francie Hinrichsen from episode 132, where we talked about pursuing our God-given dreams. She is the amazing businesswoman who has carefully designed a brand-new website for Savvy Sauce Charities, and we are thrilled with the final product. So, I hope you check it out.
There you're going to find all of our podcasts, now with show notes and transcriptions listed, a scrapbook of various previous guests, and an easy place to join our email list to receive monthly encouragement and questions to ask your loved ones so that you can have your own practical chats for intentional living. You will also be able to access our donation button or our mailing address for sending checks that are tax deductible so that you can support the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and help us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. So, make sure you visit thesavvysauce.com.
What are some of those examples for someone if they can't have PIV sex anymore? What are ways that you encourage continuing to build intimacy and a knowing of one another and offering and receiving pleasure?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (36:34 - 41:17)
Well, starting with making sure each person is on the same page as far as what they're comfortable with. Okay? Communication is key.
To be able to talk about what you want, what you desire, what your needs are, and listening to your partner say that same thing, trying to make no judgments and not forcing anybody into anything, but just so that we can help understand each other. And when it comes to actual giving and receiving pleasure, whether that's with manual stimulation, with your hands, with your fingers, or if you have a massager, oral stimulation, using a vibrator. And a vibrator can be really helpful for women in menopause, women dealing with cancer treatments, and also for men if they need a little extra help with the stimulation because their nerves aren't working so well.
A vibrator, using it together in the context of giving and receiving pleasure can help, just help with the response, help with the enjoyment, and make it a little more fun, as long as everybody's okay with that. Using a lubricant is really important. And a good lubricant, you want to use a good lubricant because some of the more common ones, unfortunately, have ingredients in them that can actually hurt or irritate.
And like KY and Astroglide, sorry to name names here, but they're basic water-based lubricants, have either glycerin, parabens, or propylene glycol in them, and those can irritate, so we want to try to avoid those. A silicone-based lubricant doesn't have those preservatives, and it stays slippery longer. Where we have to be careful with that is that if you're using a silicone tool, otherwise known as a vibrator, you don't want to use those together because it can ruin the tool.
And if the man is struggling with ED, using too much, especially of a silicone lubricant, can make it too slippery. And too slippery is not so good for him. Oil-based lubricants, they're very nice, except if you're using condoms, it will degrade the condom and create other problems, potentially.
Other ways to stimulate, manually, orally, and when women have pain with intercourse, I'm going to bring in another show-and-tell here, the pain is often coming from the vulva, not so much in the vagina. We talk about vaginal dryness and vaginal atrophy, but the part that's most sensitive is often just right inside the little lips here. And so, if we have terrible pain with penetration, we want to avoid that.
However, the whole surrounding vulvar area is very rich in nerves, can be very much stimulated, and it can feel really good, however each person is comfortable stimulating that area. And another fun fact is that this entire structure is the clitoris. You know, when we think of the clitoris, we think of the glands, this tiny little magic button right here, which, by the way, has 10,000 nerve endings in it.
It's incredible. But the legs, the legs are the cruise of the clitoris, as well as the bulbs. They come down on either side of the vagina.
So, the vagina is here. However, this part of the clitoris can easily be stimulated, so the legs of the clitoris can be easily stimulated, just inside the labia majora, or the outer lips. So, using a vibrator here can be really pleasurable, and you're avoiding the part that hurts.
So, stimulating externally the clitoris, the labia, and wherever else feels good can be very fun. And so, if you try to approach it may be like a game, making it fun and exploring each other's bodies so that you can really figure out ways to make the other person feel good or experience pleasure without causing pain.
Laura Dugger: (41:18 - 41:43)
That's so great. And like you had mentioned, if they go see a Christian sex therapist, they would say the same thing as you to stop when there is pain, because it just makes it worse over time. And so, I love that you've given us other options, if that is the case.
Is there ever a time where orgasm is no longer possible after cancer?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (41:46 - 43:14)
It's possible. Yes. Depending on the cancer and the treatment, that it can make it really difficult or even impossible to get there.
But that's where we want to not focus on orgasm as the ultimate goal, because if we engage in sexual activity with orgasm as the ultimate goal, your brain's not going to let you go there, whether it's the male or the female, either one, the brain is the biggest sex organ in the body. Just trying to go for the gold just won't let you get there. So, you have to relax and enjoy the journey regardless.
So even if the cancer or the treatment didn't necessarily affect orgasm or if it's just our brains, my encouragement is to approach a sexual encounter as an experience. Enjoy the experience. It's not a performance.
We don't want to perform because then we get in our head, and we get nervous and our muscles all tighten up. So, we don't want to perform. We want to enjoy the experience, and it can be very pleasurable.
Even if orgasm isn't part of the picture anymore, it doesn't mean you can't have fun and can't connect because you can.
Laura Dugger: (43:15 - 43:25)
But then I guess also to offer the hope, if I ask it a different way, are there times that orgasm is still possible after a cancer diagnosis?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (43:27 - 44:01)
Absolutely. We always have hope. We always have hope.
Just because you're diagnosed with cancer doesn't mean you're not going to be able to engage in PIV sex or be able to experience an orgasm because that's always a possibility. Don't focus on just getting to the big orgasm. You want to slow down, enjoy the journey, and oftentimes it will come.
There are medications that help with blood flow, that help with arousal and orgasm, and sometimes they can be helpful. Sometimes they're not, but usually it doesn't hurt to try them.
Laura Dugger: (44:02 - 44:26)
There you go. That's a very helpful reminder. It's a piece of the puzzle, not the whole thing.
But if someone right now is walking through their own cancer journey, what else would you advise them both to do and to avoid doing so that they can still enjoy the healthiest sex life possible with their spouse?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (44:29 - 47:19)
That's going to involve several pieces. One, first and foremost, maintain the communication about wants and desires, what hurts, what doesn't, what can we do, what do you want to try tonight? Maintaining the communication.
It's much better to prevent problems like the vaginal dryness and pain than to try to treat it after you've been dealing with it for years sometimes, or even months. If you have, say, breast cancer, just getting in the habit of using one of those vaginal moisturizers from the get-go even before the dryness starts can help prevent problems. Seeing a pelvic floor physical therapist can be really, really helpful.
A pelvic floor physical therapist is a physical therapist who specializes in these pelvic floor muscles that help support everything on the inside. And so if these muscles are too tight, causes pain, and if they're already too tight, doing tangles is the last thing that you want to do, because sometimes it means being able to relax them. Or women who have, who need pelvic radiation, say for uterine cancer, the gynecologic oncologist is usually really good about giving you a vaginal dilator and to use it, but they're not always really good at telling you exactly how to use it, how frequently and how long, so be sure and ask.
Because again, we want to maintain the integrity of the tissues, because it's better to maintain them than try to get it back. That's often quite hard. For guys, especially with prostate cancer, it means participating in that, we call it penile rehabilitation.
So, it's basically physical therapy for the penis. You know, its muscle, so we want to keep that muscle healthy and to help maintain healthy tissues. And just trying to be as good to ourselves as we can, giving ourselves and our partners grace when we need it, because it's a journey and it's not an easy one.
But we believe in a big God and he's there to help us through this and he delights when husband and wife can unite as one, whatever that looks like. And it makes him happy and he's there to try to keep this going for us.
Laura Dugger: (47:21 - 47:40)
And you may have already answered this question with that, but I love how you're always encouraging and gentle and full of hope. So, any other hope that you want to share with anyone who's battled cancer or is in the midst of their journey, but they're still desiring to connect intimately with their spouse?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (47:47 - 48:33)
Sometimes it means asking for help. So, for finding a provider, whether that's a therapist, a gynecologist, a sexual medicine provider, or even your pastor counselor to help you through this. In the show notes, we'll put in websites where you can find a provider because not everybody is educated.
Hardly anybody's educated on this, unfortunately. But there are people out there throughout the country, throughout the world, where you can find to help guide you on this journey. Don't suffer in silence.
We're here to help. So be sure to reach out so we can help you.
Laura Dugger: (48:33 - 48:50)
That's so good, Dr. Christiansen. And are there any other proactive measures that all of us can take to set us up for a healthy sex life into aging or any diagnoses that we may get in the future?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (48:53 - 50:38)
Well, treating our body like a temple, like God says. We have to take good care of ourselves. And just in general, going for your preventative visits and checking your cholesterol and your blood sugar and your blood pressure and screening for cancer so we can prevent them or catch them really early.
And it's so much easier to treat. But things like smoking and diabetes and being overweight and high blood pressure, high cholesterol, they impact sexual function very negatively, especially smoking. Guys are still surprised when I tell them, or I show them a picture of a cigarette with ashes that are kind of wilting off the end.
This is your penis. This is what happens with smoking. Okay.
So quitting smoking. And in women, we have those same little blood vessels and nerves that men do. And so not taking care of ourselves as far as weight, exercise and diabetes and all that stuff, that affects our sexual function, too.
So just making sure that we take a proactive stance on just taking really good care of our medical and our mental health because that's so important. And our spiritual health. Can't forget that, too.
Yeah. Just, you know, taking care of ourselves because aging does impact sexual function. As we get older, our endurance isn't quite what it used to be.
Certainly not as flexible as we used to be. Things kind of hurt. Achy joints and whatever.
So, the more we can take care of ourselves, the more we can enjoy that sexual intimacy, which does involve a little bit of physical exertion.
Laura Dugger: (50:39 - 51:03)
Absolutely. Well, you've shared a lot of places where we can go to seek help. But I would love to know where we can continue to learn from you or a website where people can find out more of your offerings because you mentioned not many people are educated in this field or on this topic, but you are a great resource.
So where would you direct all of us after this chat?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (51:05 - 52:23)
Well, I started my own business called Intimate Focus, Intimate-Focus.com. Where my goal is to offer education and quality products that people can use to help equip them and enhance sexual intimacy. As part of my clinical career where I see patients, we'd often talk about using a good lubricant or getting a vibrator to help with those nerves that just aren't quite as effective anymore.
And so many times they told me they were just not comfortable going to an adult store or they didn't want to purchase them on Amazon because it could be a shared account and kids or whatever may see what they're ordering. So, this is a private and secure site and I don't even know how to sell your email so don't worry, that's not going to happen. Where you can purchase good quality products, I vet them out myself to make sure that they don't contain the ingredients that I encourage women to avoid and no pictures with nudity or anything like that because I want it to be a comfortable space or at least as comfortable as we can make it for everybody.
Laura Dugger: (52:24 - 52:43)
Wonderful. Well, I'll certainly link that in the show notes as well. And Dr. Christiansen, you are already a friend of The Savvy Sauce, so you know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (52:46 - 53:15)
Well, you know, James in the Bible is a very practical kind of guy and I love his advice that we should all be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry. And if we were all able to do that or at least just a little more of that, I think our world would be a much better place to live.
Laura Dugger: (53:16 - 53:42)
This is so good. I cannot hear that verse enough and I just truly look so forward to the times that I get to spend with you. You are such a calming presence full of wisdom.
That's what we prayed for before we had the recording begin for today. And I am just overflowing with gratitude. So, thank you, Dr. Christiansen, for all that you've shared. Thank you so much for being my returning guest.
Dr. Kris Christiansen: (53:43 - 53:48)
Well, thank you, Laura. This has been great. It's an honor to be on your show.
Laura Dugger: (53:50 - 57:32)
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?
It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?
Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?
We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.
We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.
Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.
I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.
I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Apr 14, 2025
Monday Apr 14, 2025
Special Patreon Re-Release: Love and Loss with James Jetton
James 1:2-4 (NIV) "Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything."
**Transcription Below**
James Jetton's Bio: My name is James Jetton. I have and still do live a crazy beautiful, challenging, and blessed life. I am blessed to get to raise 4 beautiful children, and I have spent time getting to serve a fantastic community as a Recreation Minister, where I got to combine my love of Jesus, sports, and people. I served in this role for 13 years before my bride Kaetlin was diagnosed with Leukemia in 2020. Unfortunately, after an awe-inspiring journey with cancer, Kaetlin went to meet her Savior in January of 2022.
Clearly, this changed so much of my life trajectory. Currently, I’m working towards obtaining a Masters in Social Work to take the pain and experiences I have had to help others through their pain. Kaet and I were married in 2009 and built a beautiful life; we taught each other so much. So, I deeply desire to take everything we learned together and the lessons the Lord has taught me to help others.
I mentioned earlier that I have 4 exceptional children, Laken, 9, Isla Kaet, 7, Hattie, 6, and Ryder, 4. Laken is my go-getter; she is fearless, strong, and tough. Sweet Isla Kaet is a quiet thinker and planner and is often referred to as little Kaet. She cares deeply and is always looking for ways where she can help and take care of her family. Hattie is our child with special needs and has been diagnosed with GNB-1 Syndrome (a rare genetic disorder). Hattie will light up any room she is in; it’s incredible that a child who only has a few words, uses a wheelchair, and is “limited” by our world’s standards, can bring joy to people in a way that I never knew was possible. Ryder the caboose is a maniac, and his sisters affectionately call him “Wreck it Ryder” he has no fear and is a super extrovert; he keeps us all on our toes. He is what some would say, “all boy.”
This is a brief bio of me and our circus; through everything, we have found joy in all circumstances. Although there are exceptionally hard days as we have endured much grief, God has always provided, and I am thankful for the life God has given us.
Questions we discuss:
- Life took an unexpected twist in 2016. Will you catch us up on your discoveries that year?
- While many of us were in the midst of changing schedules and suddenly homeschooling children in May of 2020, your family was receiving even more news. Will you share that with us now?
- What is life like for your family these days, as grief likely comes at unexpected times?
Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and The Savvy Sauce Charities (and donate online here)
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Other Episodes from The Savvy Sauce of God's Faithfulness:
17 Being on Both Sides of Forgiveness with Adelle Dickie
18 Clinging to Jesus as I lived Through My Worst Nightmare with Angela Braker
19 Grief and Triumph and God's Pursuit Though it All with Julie Locke Moore
20 Joy in the Lord Even Through Tremendous Loss…Twice with Rachel Faulkner Brown
83 Miracles of God with Founder of Midwest Food Bank, David Kieser
120 Our Story for His Glory with Mercedes Cotchery
134 Fashion Meets Faith with Shari Braendel
141 Rescued from Poverty with Norah Birungi
143 Prodigal Story: Sexuality, Drugs, and Scripture with Dr. Christopher Yuan
160 Unleash This Generation with the Power of the Gospel with Greg Stier
161 God Redeems with Hettie Brittz
162 Healing from Spouse's Sexual Addiction with Jennifer Roush
174 Stories of God's Upside Down Economy with Kristen Welch
208 Tremendous Testimony and Adding Spark into Your Marriage with David & Teri Sumlin
223 Journey and Learnings as Former Second Lady of the United States with Karen Pence
229 Escape from Modern Day Sex Slavery with Rachel Timothy
Special Patreon 28 Re-Release: What to Do When You Don't Like Your Story with Sharon Jaynes
231 Stories Series: Faith Building Miracles with Dave Pridemore
232 Stories Series: Testify to Glorify with Richard Gamble
233 Stories Series: Surprises from God with Tiffany Noel
Special Patreon Re-Release: Patreon 30 Story of Perseverance with Jenny Boyett
234 Stories Series: Redemption From Sexual Sin in Marriage with Garrett and Brenna Naufel
235 Stories Series: Ever-Present Help in Trouble with Kent Heimer
236 Stories Series: God's Power and Light with Jaime Farrell
237 Stories Series: Prodigal and Redemption with Renee Endress
238 Stories Series: God Delights in His Children with Brad Habegger
239 Stories Series: Experiencing the Supernatural with Jackie Coleman
240 Stories Series: God's Rescue and Covering in Parenting with Brenda Dugger
242 Stories Series: He Gives and Takes Away with Joyce Hodel
243 Stories Series: Angel Encounter and Hearing from God with Mary Beth Zimmerman
244 Stories Series: Medical Marvels with Carolyn Henricks
245 Stories Series: Miracles Big and Small with Dr. Rob Rienow
246 Stories Series: Experiencing God's Tangible Love with Jen Moore
247 Stories Series: Exciting Adventures Follow Radical Obedience with Susan Zobrist
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 2:07)
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. I'm grateful for today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria.
Check them out online to place your order for dining or catering, or to fill out an application to join their friendly team. Visit cfaeastpeoria.com. If you've been with us long, you know this podcast is only one piece of our nonprofit, which is The Savvy Sauce Charities.
Don't miss out on our other resources. We have questions and content to inspire you to have your own practical chats for intentional living. And I also hope you don't miss out on the opportunity to financially support us through your tax-deductible donations.
All this information can be found on our recently updated website, thesavvysauce.com. And now, I'm pleased to share this episode with you that used to only be available to paying patrons.
My guest for today is James Jetton.
Mark and I attended the same family camp as James in 2022. I observed a father who was very devoted to his children, and one of his precious daughters was in a wheelchair, which was always by his side. He was so tender with his children, and I just assumed his wife was resting while he was attending to the family.
I did not learn of his full story until after camp, and it was through a mutual friend, April Siervo. But then, after she shared a bit more of their story, I immediately reached out to James to request that he share his faith and testimony with us today. Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, James.
James Jetton: (2:07 - 2:15)
I'm happy to be here. I'm looking forward to talking to you and just kind of sharing how God has moved in our lives the past few years.
Laura Dugger: (2:15 - 2:24)
You have already lived through so much, but let's just start here. When did Jesus initially draw you to himself?
James Jetton: (2:26 - 3:25)
Yeah, I think that's like, you know, it's a big question, right? But also, it shouldn't be. I think the first time I really just kind of came to know the Lord, I was in the eighth grade.
I had a retreat, and in that moment, for me, it was a situation of— it wasn't necessarily for me, but also just trying to do the right thing. I grew up in Birmingham, Alabama, so I was in the Bible Belt. I was like, this is what we're supposed to do.
We're supposed to give our lives to Jesus. But I would say probably going into my senior year of high school, I had some moments just kind of alone at a beach, actually. I was like, what am I doing with my life?
And I believe that that was kind of the first one real moment in my life where I decided, I think I'm going to actually follow the Lord now and not just do this, just to say I'm doing it. And so that was really the first time I really felt the Lord draw me to him. And then, of course, as time goes on, there's all these other little moments throughout where he's continually staying close and bringing me back to him when I feel like I'm drifting away and that sort of thing.
Laura Dugger: (3:27 - 3:39)
Thank you for sharing that. And you've written before on your blog that, I'll quote, one of the best decisions I have ever made was when I persuaded Kaetlin to marry me, end quote.
James Jetton: (3:39 - 3:40)
Yeah.
Laura Dugger: (3:40 - 3:43)
James, how did the two of you meet and fall in love?
James Jetton: (3:44 - 5:30)
Yeah, so we went to college together. We went to Troy University. I vividly remember a time where she was getting out of her car, and she didn't know me at this time.
But I remember seeing her. I think I met her maybe once or twice through some mutual friends. I remember seeing her get out of the car and literally, I'll never forget this moment.
I was like, man, if I could just have a girl like that. And it stuck with me. And I think the first time we met, I think I made some comments that she wasn't happy about, about some fraternity guys that were in a different fraternity than me that I didn't think too highly of.
But I didn't realize in that moment that she was actually the sweetheart of that fraternity. And so, we kind of got off to a little bad step there. But I remember she broke up with another boyfriend.
That was part of the reason I saw her. And I was like, I could never have a girl like that. All the girls like that are taken.
And so, she broke up with her boyfriend. I remember her best friend called me and was like, “Hey, can I bring her over to y'all's house? Because she just needs to laugh”.
I was like, “Well, we can do that. We can make sure she laughs”. And so, I think from there, we just kind of, I don't know, just we continued to talk.
And for some reason, she liked me a little bit and I liked her a whole lot. And we dated for about three years in college. And when we got out of college, we got married in May of 2009.
And so that was kind of where life began to speed up a lot at that point. But that was the first time I'll never forget those moments. And then there's other things throughout.
But I remember seeing her in the parking lot like that girl.
Laura Dugger: (5:31 - 5:43)
So, I love that. And OK, so married in 2009 and then children came a little while later. So how many children did you add to your family?
James Jetton: (5:44 - 6:28)
Yeah, we have four kids. Our first child was born in 2013. So, after we got married, we lived back here in Niceville for a little bit but then ended up moving.
She wanted to go to PA school, and I was working a job I didn't care too much for. So, I was like, how quickly can we go to school? And so, we moved to West Tennessee where she went to PA school.
And I ended up going to school there, too, because she studied all the time, and I was bored. And I was like, I guess I should do something productive as well. So that was 2009 and we had a lot of fun.
We love to travel, did a lot of fun things. And then in 2013, we had our first child, Laken.
Laura Dugger: (6:28 - 6:39)
And then if you fast forward, life took an unexpected twist in 2016. So, will you catch us up on your discoveries that year?
James Jetton: (6:40 - 13:07)
Yeah. So, we, you know, so we had Laken in 2013. Then, we had another part of our - we did have a miscarriage between Laken and Isla who was born in 2015. But then we had Hattie who was born in 2016.
And Hattie's our child with special needs. And she was born in - all of our pregnancies where we used to joke with people that could have babies and just bounce right back and have these beautiful, wonderful pregnancies. And they loved it.
That was not us. Every single one of our pregnancies brought some challenge within it. And so with Hattie, my wife started swelling a lot and kind of found out she had some clotting in her legs.
And so, we ended up having to induce labor for her with that happening. And, you know, when she my wife was also a PA in the ER. So, she understood medical things way better than I did.
I was kind of oblivious to a lot of things. So, she would probably say it was a little bit more scary than I realized it was when she was giving birth. But when Hattie came, like in some accounts, it just kind of seemed normal.
But she was having some trouble breathing. And so, she was in our hospital. In order to go to the NICU, you have to kind of get transferred out to a smaller hospital.
And so, they were keeping her under observation that night. And her breathing wasn't really getting a whole lot better. And they did x-rays and stuff like that, but couldn't really find much.
And then there was a morning where we were about ready to load up and send her to the NICU. And Kaetlin went and held her. And when she went and held her, she started breathing better.
And she calmed down. And it was kind of crazy. It was genuinely like the love of a mother.
Just like this connection seemed to just calm Hattie down. But we ended up finding out later, one of the nurses was amazing. And was like, I think that she has a broken collarbone.
They didn't see it on the x-ray at first because of the way her chin was turned. And so, when they went back and looked, they did another one. And sure enough, she did have a broken collarbone.
So, at the time, we kind of thought that was kind of the reason for her distressed breathing and that sort of thing. And she had trouble latching and sucking. And what we kind of came to find out later is she had what would be called hypotonia.
Which is basically where the best way to describe it in layman's terms is like a floppy baby. Like you hold her up and everything just kind of flops. And I remember Kaitlyn going to her four-month appointment.
And her being very concerned like, “Hey, Hattie's not meeting milestones. And I think that this isn't going to be a good appointment”. And sure enough, the doctor agreed.
We've always had amazing doctors around us. And so, he agreed. And so, we got referred to neurology.
And another just cool story about how God just provides. One of my best friends growing up, his dad was a neurologist in Birmingham. And so, I called him.
And he's like, all right, I got it. You're going to be here next Thursday. I'm like, oh, okay.
When we were kind of told like it's going to be like three or four months before we can even get you into a neurologist. And so, like God just kind of provided that. And we started that journey of trying to figure out what's going on.
And anyone who's ever had a special needs child, especially when you don't know what it is. Because there was nothing we could have done to foresee this happening. What Hattie had was called DeNovo, like just completely her.
Didn't come from me. Didn't come from Kaylin. And there's no other kids with special needs in our family.
It was just something we couldn't have expected or planned or could have even seen or anything like that. And so just kind of going through a lot of different doctors and tests and eventually getting referred to Johns Hopkins in Baltimore. Because at the time they thought it might be a neuromuscular thing.
And so, from there, they're like, oh, we don't think that's what it is. But then we ran a whole bunch of genetic panels. And like you're just going through all of that.
It definitely there's waves, right? Like it's like you want an answer, but at some level you're afraid of the answer. So, like each time we would do testing stuff before nothing would ever come back.
And so, it was like a relief. Okay, well, good. It's not that one.
Okay. Not that one. But then you're still like, well, what is it?
And so, after we went to Baltimore, they did much more extensive genetic testing. We found out she had this genetic disorder, or syndrome is what they're calling it now called GNV1. And it's crazy rare.
Like at the time, there were only 64 known cases. It was discovered in 2016. So, there's chances that there's other kids out there with it.
I think now there's a little over 100 that they know of. We're part of like a Facebook group where there's some of them in there. And so that's what we got the diagnosis for Hattie.
And so, what that means, I guess, probably no one knows what GNV1 is. Not even doctors. We go to doctors like, oh, can you tell us what this is?
We'll do our best. But it just starts out as hypotonia and global delay, which means every aspect of her is delayed from speech to gross and fine motor movements and all that kind of stuff. And also like with kids with special needs, it doesn't seem to affect any one of them the exact same way.
And so, but the thing about Hattie is like she has an infectious smile. She has this joy that is unreal. Like anybody that meets her just can't get enough of her.
And that is true in so many ways. Hattie uses a wheelchair to get around and Hattie's expressive language. So, her ways to communicate is behind.
But she understands everything. I mean, everything, which is pretty amazing, is my understanding. Not all the kids have that ability to receive and understand things as well as she does.
But she is an absolute joy. We used to always say and still do that Hattie's going to change the world. And we know the fact she's changed my world for sure.
And we know she's changed many others. But yeah, I could keep going on and on. But where we are today, like genuinely that she is a purpose and a reason why I've got to get up every single day.
Yeah. So, she's pretty amazing. Like I'm just yeah, I could go on and on about her.
Laura Dugger: (13:08 - 18:15)
I think you described her so well with an infectious smile and joy is the word that comes to mind when you see her. Yeah. And now a brief message from our sponsors.
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In a different season, when many of us were in the midst of changing schedules and suddenly homeschooling our children in May of 2020, your family was receiving even more news. So, will you share that with us now as well?
James Jetton: (18:16 - 22:36)
Yeah. We did have our fourth kid, Ryder. He was born in 2018, and he is a wild man.
My wife and I used to always say, or people would tell us, you'll know when you're done. But we had him, and we were like, okay, we're broke. We're done.
No more. But he's awesome. But yeah, the move forward to then, you know, that COVID stuff was really hard.
It was really hard. I was working for a church, and I do sports and rec ministry, and also I was doing student ministry at the time. And so, for me personally, like, things just kind of got shut down.
No one was doing sports leagues, and student ministry looked weirder than ever. And then my wife, she was working in the emergency room as a PA, and so she was facing everything head on. And so, I guess that kind of started in March.
It's funny, just to kind of back up a little bit. We felt prior to that, probably February or March of that 2020, when things were kind of like exploding, we just felt the Lord doing something in our lives. We felt like He was preparing us for something.
We felt like it was going to be something just amazing. But then as we moved forward to try to understand what God is doing, what He was telling us, in May, my 4-year-old, she had her preschool graduation. And I'll never forget this day.
My wife was a go-getter. She's tough. She's strong.
And we had a super weird COVID graduation for Isla, my 4-year-old. And it was weird because it was a drive-through graduation, so we had to get up there early and go do it. So, my wife also, she would do work night shifts so that she could be home with the kids when I couldn't be there.
And so, it wasn't uncommon for her to have to sleep in some. But this was like she hadn't worked the night before, and she hadn't worked. And so, we'd been off for two days, but she was just so exhausted.
She had this terrible headache that morning. And for her to say, like, I can't go to the graduation, that was like, there's something significant here. And I told her, like, she had gone to the doctor about a week before and got on some antibiotics, but it wasn't doing anything.
And I was just like, hey, I think it's time to go back to the doctor because you're not any better. And I've got to take these kids to this graduation. So, I loaded up all the kids.
We went to the drive-through graduation. While I was there, she called and said that her sister was going to take her to the emergency room. So that was a long day.
At that time, COVID was full on, so she couldn't have visitors. No one could come in with her. She had to be dropped off and go inside.
One huge plus in that for our specific situation is that she was taken to her own emergency room. So, she still had her friends and what she would call family there as well. And so, she dropped her off.
My sister-in-law dropped her off and just kind of waited in the parking lot until we figured out what was going on. So, it kind of went throughout that whole day. And I remember that night, the school was doing another virtual graduation where they showed pictures and that sort of thing.
And she texted me and said, I need to talk to you now. I was like, okay, like right now? Because I'm home alone with all four of the kids.
She's like, yeah, and I need you to get away from the kids. I was like, this doesn't sound good. What could this be?
And so, we FaceTimed, and that's where she told me they think I have leukemia. And so then as things started speeding up, we sent out a message to our church asking for prayers. From there, I put the kids to bed.
I drove to Pensacola. She got transferred to Pensacola, and we started treatment there for leukemia. So that was what happened.
That was the big moment in May. And then from there, there's a whole lot more. And so, I'll share as you wish.
Laura Dugger: (22:37 - 22:54)
Wow. Thank you for catching us up to that point, James. I can't even imagine the initial devastation that comes.
And as your journey unfolds, I remember seeing a post about leaving your light on.
James Jetton: (22:54 - 24:24)
Yeah. Like I said earlier, my wife always did the night shift. And so, I always left the light on for her when she was at work and then turned it off when she came home.
And so, yeah, so early on, I said that I'm not turning the light off until you come home. And so, during that time, the first treatment, it doesn't seem like a lot now because she was in the hospital so much. We didn't know how long she'd be in there.
But the first initial treatment, they're like, you're going to be in for three weeks. And so, I knew that she wouldn't be home for three weeks. And I guess this is me just kind of realizing that was a long time for the kids.
I remember talking to a friend of mine who was leading a small group of high school boys. And I remember him telling them, like, how hard do you think it would be if your mom was gone for three weeks? I was like, yeah, it's not easy.
But so. So, yeah, so that was that was the reason. Just like my wife, one, she was a light in the midst of all the darkness that she was having to face.
And I just wanted to make a point that like, hey, we're leaving this light on for you until you come home. And in a lot of respects, you know, she did go home. Long, long story.
But, yeah, that that was the reason for the light.
Laura Dugger: (24:25 - 24:34)
So, well, and the way that you describe her, it sounds like our mutual friend April said her joy was just out of this world.
James Jetton: (24:34 - 24:36)
Yeah, that's true.
Laura Dugger: (24:36 - 24:49)
It sounds like maybe the both of you share that, but you were not entering into a joyful season. So, what did the next few months and year even look like?
James Jetton: (24:49 - 30:47)
Yeah. So initially, when things went down, my wife and I agreed that we would not let our kids lose both their parents. And so, I tried to make it a point to be home at night.
So, when we were in Pensacola, like I would stay with her some nights, but I would also be home at night to put the kids to bed or I would put the kids to bed and I'd drive over that night and come back in the morning or be with her during the day. Like, you know, it was just crazy stuff. One, you know, it happened at the end of the school year.
So, we have all the kids at home. We didn't get to send them off to school. We were blessed to have an amazing college student.
It was one of Kaetlin's girls that she got to mentor when she was in high school. She was an amazing girl. She decided she would be like our nanny that summer.
And so, she was with our kids all day, every day. So, I could go and be with Kaetlin during the day and come home at night. And so, we went through that.
We were here and we did the treatment in Pensacola. It didn't work. And so, the next step at that point was like, well, what are we doing now?
And on a Thursday, the doctor was like, I think we need to go to MD Anderson. We'll see if there's a spot. And then on a Friday, they had a spot.
And then on Monday, we were in Houston at MD Anderson. I went to MD Anderson with her. You know, COVID protocol there still.
I could only be with her for 14 days and inpatient. And then I had to leave as an inpatient. So, I can only go with her for 14 days in that initial time.
And so, we went there. She started a treatment plan. We found an apartment.
And then I left. And then her dad came. And her dad was huge in a lot of this stuff and was able to allow us to do things like me and be with the kids.
And so, I think I stayed there for 10 days. And then he came over to stay with Kaetlin to take her back and forth to the hospital, just receiving treatment. And then I came home, and I came back to Niceville.
And that was during the summer. July, we were at home. We stayed in Niceville just kind of waiting to see, like, is Kaet going to be there longer?
Or is she going to be coming back here? And that was a wild summer. And this is what I think I would tell a lot of people that are going through hard things.
Like just because you're going through hard things doesn't mean there's other hard things. They're just a part of life. And, you know, when you have four kids, stuff happens.
You know, like we had one of my daughters, Isla, she had to have eye surgery that summer. While Kaet was in Houston. So that was an interesting thing.
My four-year-old son, he busted his head open on the back of a step going outside. So, he had to have some stitches in his head. He's the second that has had stitches in our family.
And he was the youngest. So, then the treatment, the goal was to get her to a place where she could do a bone marrow transplant. And so, we got, they got her to that point.
Her leukemia cell counts were low enough that we're ready to do a bone marrow transplant. And at that point, you know, we decided we're going to move to Houston. Everything was virtual at that time.
And I just couldn't see any reason why we couldn't all be together in Houston. And so, we found an apartment, we hunkered down. It's a two-bedroom apartment.
We built some makeshift bunk beds. And so, we moved there in August. And the community we have here was unreal.
The support that we have. Like I didn't, we didn't have to make a meal for, I felt like six months, I think. Like it was just crazy.
And people were allowing it and giving us money. So, we didn't have to worry about these kinds of things and what we're doing. And from moving packing boxes, like, I mean, I can't, it's just unfathomable.
All the different things that were put in place for us to do, to do what we did. And I don't think it would have happened without the community that came around us and our church here was great, but I've got to see The Big-C Church. And, and, and it was, it was amazing.
And so, we ended up, we all moved to Houston, and we lived in a two-bedroom apartment. Part of that story is like, you know, it's like, all right, we're doing this. And then talk about kids.
My four-year-old, the one that had also had the eye surgery, she had broken her ankle on a scooter. Like a week before we're going, it was like, are you kidding me? How is this happening right now?
But we had some great friends like, you know, when your wife is involved in the middle of the medical world, it makes access to doctors and stuff a lot easier when you're in a small town, like we are. So, they got it taken care of, got her in a cast. I was like, yeah, but we can't return with this hard cast.
We're going to Houston. He's like, all right, we'll get her in a hard cast. And we'll put her in a boot for the rest of the time.
So, we moved there. And you know, the dreams of like riding scooters around downtown Houston and doing all this kind of stuff kind of went away a little bit with the kid. And so, he, but there was a pool there.
So, we went swimming, she could swim. And so, we, we just made the best of what we had. Like we, we had a lot of good memories in that little apartment, even though it was, it was tough.
I remember, we, Halloween wasn't too long ago. We had our own little Halloween party in that apartment where we all dressed up, even Kaet. Cause she ended up getting her bone marrow transplant that time.
And another aspect of where dad was so important is when you get in the bone marrow transplant, you cannot leave, and you can have one guest. And so, her dad came and he stayed with her. It was about 30 days of bone marrow transplant.
And so, he was there with her so I could be with the kids, doing the best I can with that virtual school and, and managing Ryder and Hattie in the midst of trying to do school work with the kids. It's nothing I ever want to go back to.
Laura Dugger: (30:48 - 31:03)
Well, and not to mention you appreciate The Big-C Church, but Houston was not your long-term community. So, being here in this new place and all of these transitions, what were the results of her bone marrow transplant?
James Jetton: (31:04 - 40:17)
Yeah. So, the bone marrow transplant, it ended up working. She went into remission and so we get to come home Thanksgiving of 2020.
We came home and that was awesome. It was like a huge homecoming. Finally got back home.
She's, she's in remission. We felt like we'd beaten this. We, you know, we got that Christmas here and we were back home.
We even, our family always loves to go, has always gone to North Carolina for vacation every year. And we didn't get to do that. But so, it was like, now we're going.
And so, in January we're like, all right, we're going kids. It was just me and the kids and Kaet and we wanted to go see snow. So, we went up there and we found a place to stay.
It was an awesome trip. Loved it so much. We, when we had to check out of our place, we found another house so we could stay in for a few more days.
And so, you know, at that time though, when we were doing that, she was kind of having these red bumps kind of popping up over her. We didn't really know what it was. It could have been a reaction.
We couldn't figure it out. Saw some doctors here locally. No one could really figure out what it was.
And I think fast forward, what we found out probably, I think it was February. She came out of remission and that was kind of the beginning signs of her coming out of remission. And so that's where, life sped up.
Like, I mean, if it wasn't already fast, it was, it was just unreal. It was like a whirlwind like it was because she had to fly to Houston to go and see her doctors. And so, she was in Houston by herself when she found out that she had come out of remission, and they were going to start immediately.
So, she stays, and she flies over on Friday and on Monday they got her back doing her treatment. And so, and I was like, well, it looks like we're moving to Houston. And I was like, but this time we're not staying in a two-bedroom apartment.
It's like we're going to make this a little bit more manageable for us. So, we had some great family. Kaetlin actually had a cousin who lived in Houston.
We found a house inside their neighborhood that we could rent. And this was, you know, more, more provision that he just continued to show. We found this house in like a week and we had people from our community boxing up everything in our house.
He's gotten a truck, and we thought that we'd all get everything in one truck. But we didn't get everything in one truck. We'd even hired the movers to load up the truck.
They couldn't get it all in there. So, I was like, y'all told me that it would all fit on this truck, but now it's not. And it's Friday at like 5 p.m. when we were supposed to leave tonight. So, we're not leaving. But my brother came down. I had another one of my best friends come down and they were like, we got to go, we're going to make this happen.
So that next morning, I'm not kidding. When there was like 20 to 30 guys in my house, a brother had gotten the truck. I hadn't even, they left early to go with the truck.
I'd come. And I was at the house with the kids at a friend's house. And when me and the kids showed up, these 30 guys had already loaded up the truck and we were ready to go.
Guy came and dropped off a big spread of McDonald's for everybody. We prayed over us and we headed out that morning. And so, it was just, I mean, just crazy that, you know, in one week we packed up a four-bedroom house, loaded up two trucks and drove to Houston and we're now unloading at a new house in Houston.
And, and that's where we were for a while. That was where Kaetlin, then we went back into the treatment more aggressively trying to get her back to remission. And so that was, when we moved there in March of 2021.
And that was kind of our place for a while. We actually thought we'd be there for a real long time. Kids had started school there, trying our best to get connected community there, but it's difficult, especially when you've come from a place where you feel so connected and then you're moving somewhere new where you don't really know anybody.
And then you're moving there in a time where the whole town shut down. It was tough, but we got the kids back in school. We tried to start getting them back into normalcy of life.
And there's all these new trials when you're going through this stuff every day, it seems like there's a new trial. MD Anderson is amazing. They treat each patient. It's like an individual.
So, every plan they have is just specifically for that patient. And so, they were going to try to do this CAR T-cell treatment. So, we'd kind of gone through the whole summer, and then we get to the point where she's going to do her CAR T-cell treatment.
Now, you know, we, we were hunkered down with this COVID stuff. Like we didn't, we didn't do much. We got really good at DoorDash and grocery delivery.
And we, you know, we masked up everywhere we could because Kaetlin's system was so immuno-compromised and we had done what we had thought was a very good job of keeping her safe, keeping everyone safe. Well, and then she got to the point where she was ready to start this new trial with CAR T-cell treatment. And she gets admitted that night and every time they go in and they give her a COVID test, well, that night she had COVID.
And it was, it was like, what? And she didn't feel bad. Her dad had gotten it too.
Like we, and I, so I remember getting that, it was like one o'clock in the morning. I was asleep. I remember it like blowing up my phone.
And I was like, I didn't realize it until later. And I talked to her. And that was definitely a tough conversation because she had to like get moved, packed up and moved out and moved to a different place and then treatment for the COVID stuff.
But the crazy part was, and it was kind of, you know, I wanted to get frustrated about things I could, but like, she had zero symptoms and she had just tested positive. And so, the next morning we all had to go get tested. And it was just the weirdest thing.
I know that COVID has been so devastating to so many people. But in that moment for us, it was like, we don't like, I was like, I ran nine miles yesterday and now I'm positive for COVID. I don't.
And so, but what it did was it kicked her out of the trial that she was on. And so, then she had to come home. The next process was just kind of getting her ready for that same thing.
Basically, what her doctor did was like, I'm not taking out, you're going to get kicked off the trial, but I'm just going to make you my own individual patient. We're going to do it that way. And so, we had some, we had some pretty high hopes for this.
Doctor seemed pretty optimistic about this plan. And so, we had been renting our house in, in Niceville. And with this new plan, I would have had Kaetlin there for like three years.
And so, we were like, you know, do we really want to rent our house anymore? It's like, no, we don't. All right, well let's sell our house.
So, we sold our house, and it sold in like less than 24 hours. And it's like $25,000 over asking price. It was like, well, okay, God, I feel like that's what we're supposed to do.
And so, she went in to get that treatment. And, and, uh, unfortunately, uh, we found out that didn't work. Uh, it was like, well, she can't remember coming home and saying like, well, I'm ready.
I want to go back home. I was like, what? We just sold our house.
We don't have a home right now. But God always makes a way and you always provide always. Um, and so we, you know, I was like, all right, we want to go home.
We're going to go home. And at first I was being very logical. I was like, well, let's let the kids finish out the semester.
Cause this was like around Halloween is when she realized it didn't work and we're going to come home. So, we were able to come home. We had some amazingly generous friends who they got us a private flight to come home for that Halloween.
And I guess when we were there, um, that's where we really just decided we need to be back. And, and so she, when we went back to talk to her doctors about managing her leukemia remotely. And so that was what the plan was.
So we, we moved back that Thanksgiving, uh, with all of our stuff and we were looking for a place to stay. It was actually kind of a fun month. We were living on the beach for a couple months or really from Thanksgiving to right before Christmas.
We had some pretty awesome things come available. We were able to live in a house on the beach. And so that was, that was mine and my wife's always kind of like a special place.
And so, we love the water, and we love the beach. And so that was an awesome place for us to be. And so, uh, coming back, it was tough.
She was getting out of the hospital a lot just with fevers and stuff like that. And then we got to have Christmas here that December. And then January 9th of this past year, she, she, uh, eventually passed away.
We weren't expecting, I mean, we knew that there would be an end, but I don't think we could have expected it to, um, happen then. And I think we kind of thought we'd have a little bit more time, but we didn't, but we were thankful. I'm thankful for my wife.
It was like we got to get back now because we knew that when an issue did pass that we needed to be in our hometown and not in Houston, where our community was much smaller.
Laura Dugger: (40:18 - 40:27)
So, yeah. And so, you're together, you're celebrating Christmas. And then things suddenly turned unexpectedly.
James Jetton: (40:28 - 40:28)
Yeah.
Laura Dugger: (40:28 - 40:31)
And that led to losing her on January 9th.
James Jetton: (40:32 - 44:59)
Yeah. You know, nothing really happened like, you know, in that leukemia world. And you know, a lot of cancers that give you like, you know, a prognosis like, you have three months, you have four months full, but blood cancer is very different.
And it kind of exacts you and, and there's no way to really know for sure, like, is this going to work or how long do we have and that sort of thing. And she was just in and out of the hospital so much. When we came back home, when you have leukemia, anytime you have a fever above a hundred point four, it's like you're immediately going to the doctor.
And so that's kind of how, you know, when she went in, like, there's still kind of an expectation that she would come home. But then those last few days, like, I just, I vividly remember as we're trying to figure out what to do, we're going to, are we going to go to a new treatment plan or we're going to try something else? Or, or is this kind of the end?
And her doctor here, he said, there was a plan that we possibly could have done, but he was like, they're saying this got a success rate of like, whatever, nine of 10 people went into remission with it. He's like, but when you look closer, they were only in remission for four weeks. And he was like, is this what we want to do?
Cause chemo just, it wipes you out. And it's like, there's no way to continue to live like this. But she, Kaetlin, she was, she just had a way of bringing a peace over everybody.
She had a way of like knowing exactly what everyone needed, I guess, in some respects. Cause I remember leaving the day we decided we would not do the treatment plan. And I came home, like I said, I always try to be home to put my kids to bed.
She said that the night before it kind of, she went downhill fast. She got up and walked around the hospital with her dad and told her dad like, “Hey, I think I'm going to do, I think I'm going to do it. I'm going to do the treatment plan.”
You know, I've talked to him about this, but I feel like that was almost like the piece he needed to go home. You know, when she passed, it was like, it was beautiful. Like it was, it was such a blessing that she was in her home hospital and that the doors, it was like a revolving door.
I remember Kaetlin told me once, she said, “when I pass or when I'm in the last days, don't tell anyone that they can't come see me.” And so, we were trying to figure out how we're going to do this. And I was like, well, she said that anybody who wants to come see me, let them come see me.
And so, we put a word out and there was like a revolving door of people just coming in and out of the room all day. Like the doctors, the ER told the front desk people, like, you know, technically, I guess you're only supposed to have like two visitors or something because of the COVID things. And she was like, anybody that comes in and says they want to see Kaetlin Jetton, you say, “Go on up”.
So it was, it was pretty awesome seeing all these people come in and see her. And we had already gotten to see the impact that she had made on so many people's lives for the past couple of years, but it was cool to see them all there doing that. And I remember the night she passed, I leaned over, I was heading home and two of my best friends since the ninth grade had come down and they were at the house with the kids and I was coming home to put the kids to bed.
And I leaned over and gave her a kiss and I said, don't wait on me. It's like, it's okay. It's time to go home.
And sure enough, that's, I left that night and I got a phone call about 11 from her dad and she had passed and that, and I think that, you know, in some respects, it's like, should I have been there? I was like, but I think that also was like, no, Kaet wanted you to be with your two guys. And Kayla knew that her family would be there with her.
And she did exactly what she wanted to do. You know, she always had a plan even from her like celebration service. She had everything written out.
Who's going to speak, what songs are playing, when are we doing this? And so it was, it was, you know, it was pretty cool seeing how many people just came in and out and how she just kind of felt like she knew what she was doing, even up in the last days. So.
Laura Dugger: (45:00 - 45:55)
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Well, James, your perspective is incredible. And yet I'm so sorry, such a deep loss for your whole family.
And what is life like now for all of your family these days? Cause it's still very recent. And I'm wondering if grief still comes up at unexpected times.
James Jetton: (45:56 - 50:49)
Yeah. You know, it's, you know, it's a day-to-day thing, I believe. I don't, and grief is certainly something that sometimes you don't see it coming.
And I'll say, I love bragging on this community. I love bragging on this town so much. So, my kids, they're all in school, you know, and I'm bragging on my kids too.
After she passed, the kids got to stay home for a couple of weeks, but then it was time to go back to school. My two girls go to one school where actually Kaetlin went to school from kindergarten all through. So, I felt like that was a very special thing for her and the kids could go to the same school that their mom went to.
But then Hattie goes to a different school because of her special needs. And then Ryder goes to a different school. He's in preschool.
And so, after she passed, like, so it was complicated in the sense of, I've got to get Hattie to school at 7:30. I've got to get Lincoln out of school by like 8:45 and then Ryder can go in before 9:00 a.m. So, I would usually drop him off on the way. But I say, I'd say like, what does life look like?
Well, after she passed, I knew like, how am I going to make this work? And that semester, there was somebody in my house every morning at 7:00 a.m. to sit with the kids, help with breakfast, and help finish getting them ready while I could take Hattie to school at 7:30. And then I would come back home and after they finished getting ready, then I would take them to school. So, I had someone in my house every morning at 7:00 a.m. after she passed, which was, you know, they were doing it for the kids, but they were doing it for me too. I knew that I couldn't just lay in my bed and let people just come on in and take care of my kids. Like I had to get up, take a shower, look like I'm somewhat presentable and go on. And that's kind of how that last semester was, just community and people with meals and then through all that, trying to get them engaged, get them back into doing some things that they love to do.
And yeah, I like to brag on my kids in a lot of ways, this perspective kind of dawned on me in the past couple of weeks of like, I sent them back into a new school where they know very many people. Everybody knows them. Not everyone.
I don't know everybody. And they had to go and do that a few weeks after their mom passed. Here I am trying to stay away from people and not have a whole bunch of conversations, but yet the kids are stepping up and doing their thing.
And man, it's just, it's pretty inspiring when I think of it in that respect as well. Nowadays we are blessed that we get to have a nanny and it's, that's a whole cool story in itself. And that she worked with me in student ministry, and I'd actually left to go be a nanny for some other people in Nashville.
And I was texting her trying to figure out, “Hey, I need some help. You got any friends down here that want to be a nanny? Cause it's hard to find.”
And she's like, “Actually, I would love to come back and do it.” And that was just a huge blessing. Cause it was like, at the time of us having all these new things, I was able to be able to have somebody that the kids already knew come in and be there.
And so, she helps in so many ways and allows the kids to do their tennis and their soccer and gymnastics or whatever it may be. And it allows me to get to, coach them and be a part of that, those aspects of life, which I love doing so much. And so, she's really helped.
So, in our day to day now, like it, it's a lot of moving pieces. I mean, just last week, we got to go to a widower's retreat and there was never a worry, never worry about who's taking care of the kids, that they're getting to where they need to be. So, it's a genuine, like I get to see how a village truly takes care of the kids.
And yes, there are days and it's hard. And some days it just kind of sucks and it sucks for them. It sucks for me.
But I have gotten to see how God still shows out through the difficult moments and how he still provides no matter how far away I am or how close I am. He still continually provides. And I know that, and I know that he will not let us down.
It's one day at a time. And as we approach these new seasons, there's always new seasons. You talk about grief and things pop up.
I think that holidays will bring up stuff they already have in some respects and my wife, you know, she was a medical professional. So, when kids get sick, it's different now. We go to the doctor more often because mom's not here to take care of them and call in medicine.
But I think that we do sense a void in that when kids are sick and that sort of thing. But, today, like things are okay. We're doing all right.
Laura Dugger: (50:50 - 51:07)
Well, and James, you were a journalism major and you're a very gifted writer. So where would you direct us to get to read more about your family and stay current and hopefully find ways that we can further support you?
James Jetton: (51:08 - 52:18)
Well, my wife and I, we started a blog called Our Hands Go Up, and it's OurHandsGoUp.com. And that's formed out of, started with Hattie. That's where the blog started because Hattie, we talked about that joy that she has, but our hands will always go up.
Like her hands go up all the time and it just seems so appropriate. And the picture of hands going up, there's so many things that go to that with our praise to God, our vulnerability and our sides. And there's just a lot that comes through that anyway.
But yeah, Kaetlin started writing on that and I wrote some in that. She spearheaded it because she's way more organized and detailed than I am. So, it looks a lot prettier than what I would have done, but here recently, like I've felt a calling to bring it back and revitalize it.
So as of right now, like there's, my wife wrote a lot, and she still has writings that she never shared with anybody. So, I've started revitalizing it by sharing some of her writings, but I will be writing in there as well. So that would probably be a good place or even, and then my, just my social media, James Jetton, you can always see some crazy stories of my kids.
Laura Dugger: (52:21 - 52:34)
Oh, wonderful. We will link to both of those in our show notes. And are there any practical needs that you do have at this time or any specific prayer requests you would like to share with us?
James Jetton: (52:35 - 53:26)
You know, I think the specific prayer requests are just for me and for my kids. So, things are going to look different for them for sure. And I know there's going to be some hard moments.
So, I guess the prayer would just be, you know, provision as God's always provided. And, you know, when I say that, I don't just talk about it in like a material way, but like He seems to provide us with feelings, emotions, people, support, all of that. And so just provision for my kids and just encouragement and support for them as we've kind of walked through these, these new firsts for the kids and, and that it will just, they will still have, find the joy that we always talk about choosing and, and that my wife did so well that we will continue to find that joy through these more difficult days ahead for sure.
Laura Dugger: (53:26 - 53:58)
Yes, Lord may it be so. Well, James, you clearly just have so much wisdom to share and I appreciate you walking through so much of your personal journey. And I know that you also do have a lighthearted personality and we're going to end on a lighter note because you may know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because Savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge.
And so, as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?
James Jetton: (54:01 - 54:51)
You know, my Savvy Sauce, it's just, it's one day at a time. I think that we get overwhelmed with, you know, I joke with people, like it's a stupid joke. But hey, if God wanted to give us more than one day at a time, He would. So, we only get one day, and He doesn't give us two days at one time.
You know, just taking things as they come one day at a time. We all have our goals. We all have our plans, our dreams and aspirations, but leaving space for the Holy Spirit and how God moves is critical.
And when you're walking through grief and you're walking through hard stuff, like thinking about too much out there in front of you can be debilitating. And so just focus on what your next step, just take one more step. We can always take one more step.
And so just kind of day at a time and just take one more step.
Laura Dugger: (54:52 - 55:08)
James, thank you for your faithfulness to Kaet, your faithfulness to our Lord, your faithfulness to your children. And we will all be praying for each of you in this coming season and beyond. And just really grateful for you being my guest today.
James Jetton: (55:09 - 55:26)
Well, I'm really grateful to be here. This is great. I'm thankful for the chance to just share her story and share our story.
I feel God has just moved and worked through us in so many amazing ways. And anytime I can get a chance to share how God has moved and worked, I'm thankful. So, thank you for having me.
Laura Dugger: (55:26 - 58:42)
It's been an honor. One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?
It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?
Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?
We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.
We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.
Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.
I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.
I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Apr 07, 2025
Monday Apr 07, 2025
259. God Speaks to His Kids . . . Here's How with Chris Allen
**Transcription Below**
“My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.” John 10:27 NIV
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
- How can we actually disciple our children to listen to God and recognize when they are hearing from the Holy Spirit as well?
- You've stated, "If you want to hear him, cultivate wonder." Will you elaborate?
- What are some follow up questions we can ask our kids to actually put this into practice?
Chris Allen is married to Rachael and they have three kids. Chris has a masters degree in spiritual formation from Richmont Graduate University and he is a trained spiritual director. Previously Chris was a pastor in full time ministry for many years, but he is also a technology entrepreneur and is currently working in the technology group at Chick-fil-A.
Other Episode Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce:
231 Stories Series: Faith Building Miracles with Dave Pridemore
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:36)
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Duggar, and I'm so glad you're here.
The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka.
Owned and operated by the Birchie family, Sam Leman and Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over Central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at samlemanchevy.com.
Chris Allen is my guest today.
He has a master's degree in spiritual formation from Richmond Graduate University, and he's also a trained spiritual director. Previously, Chris was in full-time ministry as a pastor for many years, but he's also a technology entrepreneur, and currently he's working in the technology group at Chick-fil-A. Chris and my husband, Mark, actually go way back, so I've also invited Mark to come along with me today to interview Chris as we ask him more about cultivating wonder in our children and helping them to understand how to hear from God so that they can enjoy a conversational relationship with the Lord.
Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Mark, and Chris.
Mark Dugger: (1:38 - 1:39)
Hey, thanks. Great to be here.
Chris Allen: (1:39 – 1:41)
Yeah, it's great to be here.
Laura Dugger: (1:42 - 1:48)
Well, I just want to start off and have both of you just take us back to how you two initially met.
Chris Allen: (1:49 - 2:20)
Oh, gosh, that's dangerous, Laura. Are you sure you want to do that? Well, Mark and I met in, I think it was fourth grade. But I've kind of known for not having the best memory, so I could have that off.
Maybe Mark will correct me, but yeah, starting somewhere in maybe sixth grade, we started kind of being pretty close and spent a lot, a lot of years together through middle school and high school and into adulthood, so it's been a while. Yeah, Mark?
Mark Dugger: (2:20 - 2:32)
I'm pretty sure we were in the nursery together at church growing up, so clearly you meant more to me than I meant to you. I think is what it's coming down to, but that's okay.
Chris Allen: (2:33 - 2:38)
I know that's been a theme in our relationship, but you are very important to me, Mark.
Mark Dugger: (2:39 - 2:58)
No, I just remember a mutual friend of ours moved away, and I think that was the catalyst for us starting to hang out. You lived right behind him. I would go to his house all the time, and then when he moved away, that was kind of the catalyst for us to start hanging out, and then I feel like we were pretty much inseparable from then on.
Chris Allen: (2:59 - 3:07)
See, it's always good to have at least someone who remembers, but I do know that you're important to me today.
Mark Dugger: (3:08 - 3:10)
Well, thank you, Chris.
Laura Dugger: (3:11 - 3:34)
Well, and it's been awesome just to hear the stories of growing up together and being close through all the years, but you guys also had so many unique opportunities. As I hear how both of you had a faith at a reasonably young age, so I'd love to hear from both of you, what were some of your experiences through those formative years that grew your faith?
Chris Allen: (3:39 - 5:27)
Yeah. Looking back on those years is kind of interesting for me. I became captivated by Jesus around the age of 13, and it really kind of consumed my time, at least mostly, and not because I needed to or had to.
It was I wanted to. In our church community, mostly our youth group, just kind of became honestly where I spent most of my time. Mark and I kind of experienced that together. So, I think we had a lot of time there.
We had a really tight-knit community. And then the other big thing was pretty early, we both kind of got invited into participating in God's work in different ways. We would lead things at our youth group.
We started leading things. Other youth groups started having us come in, and we had a worship band, and we would facilitate study and some teaching. But looking back at that, I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't believe they let me lead anything.
And so, it really, for me, illuminates how God has chosen to work in our lives. He invites us to participate in His kingdom. There is no qualification for that.
It's just as we are. And then He uses our participation not only to create fruit, like others are impacted by it, but He also shapes us in the process. And so, I think that's always true.
It's true today of all of us, but I can see it a little bit more clearly when I look back at that season. Yeah.
Mark Dugger: (5:29 - 6:20)
Well, Chris, you glossed over the fact about talking about the praise band that we were part of and how I was really the core being the manager, aka sound manager. It was awful. I was literally there with no musical inclination whatsoever, and I was only there by association because you guys were awesome musicians, leading worship in incredible ways.
And I was the tagalong who we would do sound checks, and you would be like, “hey, Mark, can you turn up the left monitor? No, no, no, no, not that one. The other monitor. No, wait, no. You know what? I'm just going to come back and just do it for you.”
And so really, I was the glue that held everyone together. You didn't really talk about that part.
Chris Allen: (6:21 - 6:51)
Yeah. I'm so glad you brought it up, Mark. Yeah, there was a lot of trips running from the stage to the soundboard to do the thing I was trying to get Mark to do.
But no, Mark, you were incredibly supportive in those years. All that was accurate, except for the amazing musician part. We maybe could say that about him, but for me, I think I knew just enough to maybe get through the song.
Mark Dugger: (6:52 - 8:45)
Well, I was going to say, in all seriousness, there was one particular retreat I remember specifically, and you let me do the closing message at the very end, and it was going to be on the Prodigal Son. And I remember being like, this is one of those cool experiences that's still surreal to me that came in. I felt like I was kind of the closing deal. And so, I remember there being a lot of pride involved in that.
And I remember hearing about the Prodigal Son and knowing that story really well. And I came in just thinking, all right, I'm just going to just bring it and it's going to be amazing. And all of these kids are going to come and know the Lord.
And I remember even in my arrogance and pride, God still shined through. And I remember getting off that stage when I was about to walk off. I remember just, I even like forgot my words at one point and walked off the stage.
And it was absolutely, I felt embarrassed, and I felt like I had just failed God through my pride and arrogance. And then all of a sudden, you came in and kind of rescued this amazing moment and really closed out that message. And I'll just never forget how shaping that was for me, that seeing even in spite of arrogance and pride and fault and sin of my own, that God can still use those things for His good.
And I just remember that being such a shaping moment for me. And really just, I think it further grew our friendship just to see, you just kind of pick me up in that way and answer God's call and have the courage just to kind of lead through it there. So, I just remember that being just a profound moment in my faith and growth.
Chris Allen: (8:47 - 9:01)
Yeah. Well, that's a great example of just the kinds of things we got to experience at that age. And I think it was really formative for both of us to get to do that in middle school and high school years.
Laura Dugger: (9:03 - 9:28)
And I've just gotten to know this over the years, hearing all of these stories of the two of you and Adam Johnson, who was part of the band. And it's incredible to be so close in friendship still, all three of you, and now they're awesome wives. And so, switching gears though, from the past now, Chris, can you catch us up on your current life stage with your family as well?
Chris Allen: (9:29 - 10:34)
Well, the biggest news is we just got a new pup. I don't know if you can hear him barking in the background, but Walt is our newest member. He's a little Shih poos.
So, he is a fluffy monster, which is wonderful when you're petting him, not so great when you have to pay for the grooming. But it's actually, it's been really good. We've talked about getting a dog for a lot of years, and our kids are just at the perfect season to soak it up.
So, we have three kids, 11, 9, and 6 (Ryan, Ramsey and Harvey) and my wife, Rachel. We are coming up on 16 years of marriage here this fall. So yeah, that's the season we're in.
We're having a lot of fun. It's like, you know, people keep telling me like, you're in the golden years. And I feel like we're actually experiencing it and enjoying it for the most part.
Of course, there's always, always the things. But yes, that's where we are.
Mark Dugger: (10:35 - 11:23)
So, I want to go back here recently. We were on a drive down to Atlanta, and our kids love their phone conversations with Uncle Chris on the way down. And I just remember one specific instance where we were talking to you and asking you about this experience you had to, you were asked to lead a retreat for Ryan's school.
And we were just blown away by what you were learning, what you were experiencing, and then especially how you talked about growing in faith and really building a life of relationship with God and your kids. So, do you mind kind of just sharing us a little synopsis of that talk and what that looked like?
Chris Allen: (11:25 - 19:12)
Yes, I'd be happy to. But first, I feel like the audience should know that most of my calls with your girls in the van are Uncle Chris trying to sell them a pizza or order a pizza with random things on it or making up like random songs or being a random character. So, it's mostly joking conversation.
And I'm not actually their uncle. We've just given me that title because we're close. But yeah, that's most of our conversations.
But yeah, I got invited to be the speaker at the fifth-grade retreat for my son's class. So, it was like a three-day retreat for their grade at his school. And as I was wrestling with like, okay, well, what, you know, what am I going to share?
I don't do that sort of thing that often. So, I'm usually excited when I get the opportunity to, but was just kind of sorting out, all right, what, like, God, what do you want to share with them? And this thought, actually, I should say, this was planned way in advance, and like, like, six to eight months in advance.
And it was kind of like in the back of my mind for a lot of months. And I had nothing like I had no clarity about what I was gonna talk about. And of course, you know, as you get closer and closer, you know, it starts to like, be a little bit more on your mind.
But I kept coming back to this thought of like, no, like, you know, God will bring clarity when he's ready. And trying to hold on to that thought. And then as we got like two weeks out, this thought just came, it was like, what if they began a conversational life with God at fifth grade?
Like, I've been working on this project that's kind of about how to help adults develop a conversational life with God. And before this moment, like I had not put these two opportunities together. But once that thought came, like, it just lit me up.
Because obviously, I have three kids that are kind of in that stage. And, you know, we're constantly pursuing them spiritually and trying to help them explore who God is. But that's not necessarily easy.
And obviously, trying to help them develop their own life with God, which is not easy, you know, they're kids, and they see things differently. And so for me, it was like, wow, what if they started now? You know, for adults, I think it's really hard.
Like prayer can mean a lot of things. I think most adults feel like prayer or conversation with God is somewhat hard. It's something they struggle with, typically something they want more of, but maybe don't feel super successful in.
So, the thought was, you know if you start in fifth grade, what would that change? Um, so I kind of went on a journey of trying to think about how could I help them? How could I help them explore this?
How could I help them start a conversational life with God? And that that kind of ended up being, you know, what the series of talks that I gave throughout the retreat were. So, my second thing was around like, if you want to hear him, you've got to cultivate wonder, which I'll come back to in just a second.
And then my third thing is, was teaching them to pay attention to their thought life, which we can dive into more. But the wonder piece, it may not be obvious, like why wonder, you know, why is that important? Um, so let me just speak to that for a second.
So, uh, the way I like to think about wonder is if you've ever been snorkeling in like the ocean, ideally in really clear water, uh, there's this moment, like, right. So, like you go out on a boat, you get to the spot where you're going to snorkel, you've got all your gear, you get in the water. And there's this moment where you're, you're about to go underwater, but before you do your head's still above the water, right.
And in this moment, you're like so close to beginning to see this whole new world that's underneath the water. Uh, but for this moment, your eyeline is above the water and you're really like, that's all you see. Like you really, you really can't, like, if you look down, you just see kind of like this fuzzy picture, right.
This distorted kind of water picture. Uh, but you can see for miles and miles across the top of the water, you see the sky, like there's so much above the water that you can see. Right.
And then you put your goggles on, and you drop your head down like six inches. And all of a sudden there's this whole other world, uh, that you really didn't have access to before that moment, right. You couldn't really see what was going on down there until you put your head under the water.
Uh, but then all of a sudden you start to see, you know, depths of the ocean. Uh, you know, reefs, all these, you know, different colors, all these different fish, wildlife, you know. Um, and then the same is kind of true when you're underwater. Like if you go underwater and look up, you can like see a vague color of the sky, but it's kind of all distorted.
So, I like this analogy because it kind of, it's like you almost have like two totally separate kingdoms, right? Like the underwater world and the above water world, they are right next to each other. There is this point at which they touch, but they operate so differently.
Like, you know, everything underwater is different, right? You can't breathe, like oxygen is different. Uh, you know, uh, the way you move is different.
You got to swim, you can't walk. Like the way things work underwater is different than how they work out of water. And I think the kingdom of God in the kingdom of earth is kind of similar.
Like there is a threshold at which they touch, but they, they operate so differently. Like the kingdom of God is just different. It's different than what we know in the kingdom of earth.
So essentially, uh, I kind of see like all of life is us, you know, trying to, or working towards participating with God in the kingdom. His kingdom, uh, while we are operating here on earth and the kingdom of earth. Um, and so wonder for me is, is like the goggles, uh, that help us move back and forth between kingdom of earth and kingdom of God. Uh, like when you put the goggles on, you know, you can, you can open your eyes underwater depending on the water, uh, but you can see so much better with, with goggles.
And so, um, wonder for me is like, is the vehicle that helps me move towards the kingdom of God. So, um, I'll, I'll, I'll share more about kind of like how I talked with the kids about that, but God speaks to his kids. If you want to hear them cultivate wonder.
And then lastly, pay attention to your thoughts. Uh, so that's, that's kind of what we talked about.
Laura Dugger: (19:14 - 21:09)
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Well, and I love all of those. So let's just slow it down and kind of go through all three, beginning with that first statement that you make that God speaks to his kids.
And from previous conversations, I know that Mark and I agree with you on that, but not everybody does. Even those who are in the faith community may not agree that God is still speaking to his children. And so, what would you say is the basis for your belief on that?
Chris Allen: (21:11 - 23:18)
Yeah, that's a big question. Well, you know, I think, I think it's pretty clear in scripture. Like, you know, we have in John 10 where he says, “I'm the good shepherd.
I know my sheep and my sheep will know, they'll know my voice. They listen to me.” Like, and if you read that section, it's not only that, like, he speaks, it's that like, it almost sounds like it's easy.
Like the sheep don't have to work to know who their master is like, or the shepherd is like, they know his voice. you know, like when the shepherd calls, the sheep can instantly know if it's his voice or not. you know, quick, funny story. I wasn't planning on telling you, but my wife is an identical twin. And when we first started dating her and her twin shared a phone, a cell phone.
So we're in college, we start dating. I would call my girlfriend, not knowing if she was going to answer the phone or if her sister was going to answer the phone. And I had to know, just based on the tone of their voice, which one it was could get in big trouble if I get this wrong.
Right. So, you know, I learned, I learned her voice. Right.
And the same is true, obviously, with like our kids, like they can tell the difference between your voice and some other parents voice. Right. Did you always get it right?
Did I always get it right? There was a few times where it was a little hard. Usually a lot of times, like there was context clues, you know, like just by the way they would talk to me, but sometimes like Rebecca would answer and just say like, “Hey, and you know.” it's like, that's all I got to work with is a “Hey, you know”?
And, you know, I wasn't quite sure for a moment. So, I would ask a question to get more talking going, and then I would figure out who this was. So, yeah.
Mark Dugger: (23:19 - 23:21)
That's good. Sorry, I derailed you there.
Laura Dugger: (23:22 - 23:44)
I'll bring us back because I think that's so profound, even how you said context clues. So, I'll bring it back. You were talking first, John 10:14.
“I am the good shepherd. I know my sheep and my sheep know me”. And then also a few verses later in 27, where he says, “my sheep listen to my voice. I know them and they follow me.”
Chris Allen: (23:47 - 25:06)
Yeah, I think. And then I think also like Jesus modeled this throughout his whole life. Like we would, you know, I and the Father are one, He would often retreat for time with the Father.
He seemed very clear on what the Father was saying. I mean, I realized there's a divinity gap between looking at how Jesus operated and maybe how we are. But then He also says, “like, it's better for Me to leave because I'm going to send my Helper, the Holy Spirit.”
And I think we see in that language, an even more intimate relationship. Like Jesus is in, like God is in us, you know? So, I don't think like when I study scripture, I don't think God intended for it to be hard for us to hear Him.
Which is why, you know, I'm interested in this topic. And as a lot of people that I interact, do struggle with that, and I struggle with that in my own life. I don't want to just accept that, you know?
So that's kind of what motivates me in this topic. It gets me excited to talk about it.
Mark Dugger: (25:09 - 25:12)
That's cool. You have something else you wanted to say?
Chris Allen: (25:13 - 31:40)
Well, I was kind of going back to the retreat. So, I think, you know, one of the biggest hurdles when I was in with the kids, as well as I think with us, even as adults, is first just acknowledging that we don't notice everything. Like there's things happening around us that we just simply don't notice.
If you're like me, like I feel like I'm fairly observant. And I do notice a lot of things. And I typically kind of feel like I'm right about things, you know, or I feel like my take is kind of on point.
It can be hard to admit this, but the reality is like there's so much happening around us that we actually don't notice. So, when I was talking to the kids, this was like the first thing that I tried to establish. So, I had this opening slide that said, if you're reading this, put your finger on your nose.
And so, as I come up to talk, I mean, I'm just introducing myself for the first time. Hey, everyone, I'm so glad to be here. My name is Chris. Mr. Chris, you know, and I'm starting to talk to them, you know, leading into our time together. The whole time behind me is this slide. If you're reading this, put your finger on your nose. And so, as I'm talking, you know, certain kids started putting their finger on their nose, but as I went on for like five or 10 minutes, right.
And in the end, you know, maybe a third of them had their finger on their nose. And so, I was like, you know, the first thing I want to establish with us together is an idea that there's things happening around you that you do not notice. And to convince you that that is true.
I want you to look around and notice your friends who have their finger on their nose. And the reason is because of the slide behind me that you haven't noticed yet. Right.
And so, it was a really fun way just to help them go like, oh, interesting. I guess I don't notice everything. And then we kind of moved to this idea of taking on a posture of curiosity.
And so, I was like, I want you to imagine that we or I was like, does anybody know a name of a famous detective? You know, they're shouting out names and stuff. So, we landed on Sherlock Holmes.
OK, well, Sherlock Holmes was here in the room with us, and he was trying to solve a mystery. What do you think he would do? And, you know, hands start going up.
He'd look for clues. Like, yeah, that's right. He'd look around.
You know, he's trying to figure out clues to solve the mystery. Right. And so, cultivating this posture of curiosity of like, OK, if things are happening around me that I don't notice.
And I want to notice them, like, what would that look like? I've got to start getting curious about my life, about the things that are already in it. And why are they there?
And so that's really kind of at the root of this idea of cultivating wonder is looking at your life and the things that are already in it and wondering about them. I'll give you an example. Our oldest, Ryan, is going into middle school, a transition which there's been a little bit of energy about in our house.
But near the end of fifth grade, Ryan was a little bit unsure what school he wanted to go to. He wasn't sure if he wanted the school that they are in which goes K through 12. So, he had the option of staying there.
But he also had the option of potentially moving to a different school. And he had some friends that are going to move. And that was kind of a catalyst for a lot of the conversation.
So, for a lot of that time, you know, just to be transparent, there was a lot of worry and anxiety as we were trying to discern, like, which school should he go to? And, you know, you've got layers that you've got my take on, you've got Rachel's take on it, you've got Ryan's take on it, right? And all of course, his parents, like, you know, we don't want to just make a call and force him, you know. We really want him to be bought in.
And at the same time, we have a sense of what we think. And so for a while, we were just kind of doing what I call wandering. Wwe were just wandering around within this topic, like, you know, Rachel would feel anxious about certain things, I would feel certain things, you know, Ryan's feeling certain things. And we're just kind of ping ponging around, wandering around.
And then one day, it finally started to shift towards wonder for me. And it was just like, you know, I wonder what God is up to in Ryan's life. Like, I wonder what God has in mind for Ryan, as he's moving into middle school.
I wonder which environment might be best for him, you know, to shape him in this next season. And instead of like latching on to the pieces that we're maybe concerned about and obsessing about those or thinking about those, just moving towards wonder, even though it doesn't solve anything, it doesn't change anything, like the situation is still the same. But it begins to change how I hold that thing.
And before I know it, I am interacting with my Father God about this thing that I was just worried about. And so, it's like this transformation of taking the, because here's the thing, this thing is already happening in my life. I'm already spending energy on it.
Like, why not let it be the catalyst for how I'm going to interact with God? And so cultivating wonder, curiosity, why is this happening? What is God up to?
As I mentioned already, for me, it's kind of been the gateway for me to put on goggles and to begin to see more of why things might be happening. Or what God's up to and just hold them differently than I was previously.
Mark Dugger: (31:40 - 31:55)
So, I love this topic and thinking about it. How can we then disciple our children to listen to God and know for themselves, like, and recognize when they're actually hearing from the Holy Spirit?
Chris Allen: (31:56 - 39:42)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, I don't think there's a perfect formula.
I think it's something we just cultivate. Some of that's going to depend on the individual. I think each child's going to be a little bit different, but I think this idea of starting to notice things is a key one and just helping them think about or acknowledge that they're not going to see everything.
Another little tool that I use with the students was those magic eye things. I don't know if you remember this from our childhood, but they had books and posters with these pictures of, like, when you look at it from a distance, it's just like a lot of little random things or like a confusing drawing at most. But if you look at it a certain way, right, you start to see this picture within the picture.
Right. And so, we used that. It was awesome.
We had like a contest to see who could see it first and they got prizes and stuff. But you know, it's basically like we have to fix our eyes. Right.
We have to learn how to see the unseen, essentially, in the same way. I mean, those posters are actually a little tricky for a lot of people. Like if you don't see it, you don't see it.
Like, you know, you have to learn a certain like once you get the hang of it and you position yourself in relationship to it just right. Right. You can start to see like the horse or whatever jump off the page.
But, you know, learning to see what is unseen is not easy. But here's the really, really cool part that I think is really important for kids. It's like God made them for this.
And, you know, not just kids like us to like God made us for this. Your mind is already doing the things that is needed for this. And so, at the retreat to help them like understand what I mean by this, I basically wanted to show them all the things that they already know that they never learned.
And you may not know what I mean by that, but basically we played this game where I had all these logos from different famous brands. But I intentionally chose brands that were like adult brands, like insurance, Allstate, you know, State Farm. And so, we had their slogans or their logos in some cases, and they had to guess what it was.
They knew them all. And it's like, you know, I would make jokes, of course, in between they get off. They got Allstate.
And I'm like, I would go up to the kids who guessed it right. I'd be like, so tell me, do you have auto insurance with Allstate? Or is it home insurance?
What is what's your coverage amount? You know, what is your policy like? Just to drive home the point, it's like, you know, they're not a customer.
There's no reason they should know who Allstate is. But they are watching TV, they're driving around, they're doing different things in life. And of course, they have absorbed, their mind has learned what Allstate is without them even trying, right.
And so, your mind is doing a lot of this work already. It's already noticing everything around you. It's already learning and processing all this information.
Dallas Willard talks about kind of the role of the mind. A lot of times, we think of the mind as a generator of thoughts. And this is a pretty big position or adjustment that I think is important.
But instead of viewing the mind as a generator of thoughts, viewing it more as a processor of thoughts. Because reality is like, you didn't make up Allstate, you didn't make up the brand, the kid didn't make up the brand. You just processed it, you know, and that's what your mind is doing with most information.
And so when we start to view the mind as a processor, you now have a category for okay, there's all these other things that are basically submitting things to our minds. And you know, that's all the things we've been talking about, right? That's billboards, that's TV, that's us, like we're submitting thoughts to our kids' minds.
But you know, everything they read, everything they look, everything around them is constantly submitting thoughts to their minds. And their mind is just processing away. But it does it all automatically, like that's what the mind was made for.
So, for me, the kind of good news in all this, even though I think some of these thoughts can sound kind of foreign, or maybe hard to go figure out, it really is how we were designed. Like it's, you know, God designed our minds to interact with him. He designed our minds to be able to recognize thoughts that are coming from him.
So, when we shift the mind to a processor, really, that point is just about learning to notice those thoughts, okay, as they come in, right? And as you start to notice them, you can notice, you know, kind of the nature of them or the characteristic of them. And God, the thoughts that God might be presenting to your mind versus the thoughts that other sources might be presenting to your mind, over time starts to become clearer and clearer and clearer.
So maybe just like a practical example would be that, like, sometimes when we're processing things with our kids, if they're feeling a certain way, I might ask them, like, hey, what are you thinking about this? Or what's the most, like, what's the last thought you had about this? And it's like, oh, I'm worried, you know, I was thinking about, you know, my buddy, how he won't like this thing, you know. And it's like, oh, okay, that's why you don't want to go, you know, to that place, because your buddy doesn't like it. You know, it's like, but oftentimes, I will go to the, I'll go to thoughts, and ask them about their thoughts, what's the most recent thought to understand what emotions might be happening now. But I think even just talking about thoughts as a thing, right?
Like, what thought did you have, is really helpful to start, because a lot of times, I think the default is we kind of like assume we are our thoughts, we are one with our thoughts. And this can get really dangerous. I think, especially for young men, but really for all of us, because we have a lot of thoughts that are not honoring to God or to each other, right?
And so, if those are me, then that says a lot about who I am, right? So separating ourselves from our thoughts, positioning the mind as the processor of thoughts, not only gives room for the idea that God is presenting thoughts to our minds, but it also gives room for the idea that the enemy or the world or these other things are presenting thoughts to our minds. So just because we might have that thought doesn't mean it's us, which is a big thing as well.
Laura Dugger: (39:43 - 40:52)
I love that because, okay, so going back to that first point, so God speaks to His children, and I think it's helpful for me just to have that articulated. That has been my experience, that one of the ways God speaks to me is through my thoughts, and so sharing that with our children as well. And something, when I'm verbally processing then later, if I'm wondering and I'm questioning, where did this thought come from?
Where did this originate? Mark's question to me will always be, whose voice is that? And I think it's another way of what you're saying, because it could be culture, it could be God, it could be the enemy's voice, and that it is through our thoughts.
But then if we are now, you've recommended also thinking about what our thoughts are. So, thinking about our thinking and pursuing that listening stance. So that kind of leads into the next point where you share that you say, if you want to hear Him, cultivate wonder.
So, can you just elaborate on that?
Chris Allen: (40:55 - 45:09)
Yes. So well, let me also mention, so I mentioned Dallas Willard, he has like a quote that I really love around this. And I'll just go ahead and say it for those that might be thinking it, like, did you really present all this to kids?
Yes, I did. I wrestled so much going into this with like, this is too much, like it's too deep, it's too much content. I almost changed a lot of the talk, like literally like five minutes before it.
But I kind of landed on this, you know what, and there was a lot of adults in the room, it wasn't aimed at them, but it was just like, my job is to just throw it out there. And like, if one kid just grabs onto something, you know, so yes, I did. I did give this to kids, but I realized it's a lot.
So, but Willard says, he says, generally, it is much more important to cultivate the quiet inward space of a constant listening than to always be approaching God for specific direction. And he goes on to say, in the still small voice of God, we are given a message that bears the stamp of his personality quite clearly. And in a way, we will learn to recognize it.
How the message comes, this is kind of the biggest part right here: how the message comes is diminished almost to the vanishing point, taking the form of thoughts that are our thoughts, though these thoughts are not from us. And so, when I first read this, it was like, oh my gosh, like, I think I've experienced that. But he is putting words to something I, you know, maybe hadn't fully acknowledged that like, this, this is God speaking to me, you know. So, I think a lot of times we, we write off our thoughts as just like, oh, it's just my lunch, you know, or whatever. But I, I really believe, and Willard, you know, believes that one of the primary ways that God speaks to his people, and when we say children, I don't mean children in this case, not like the age of someone, but anyone, um, any person, like, this is a, at least a huge part of how God speaks to them is, is through their thought life.
And so, for me, like, as I, as I've started to walk in this, and, um, take, pay more attention to my thoughts, and then actually, like, hold them like, okay, well, what if this was God speaking? You know, it's, it's changed my personal interaction with God, um, for sure. So, I think for most people, if you're not already practicing this, it can feel inaccessible.
It can feel hard. It's like, oh my gosh, like, are you telling me that I have, like, I have to change everything. Like, I have to start recognizing all my, like, if you're not already doing that, um, and I think that's where cultivate wonder comes in. Is moving towards just a posture of curiosity, moving towards a posture of wonder, of, um, when you start to notice a thought, like, just hold it out there.
It's like, oh, that's interesting. I just had that thought. Hmm.
And you just think about it. You just wonder about it, right? You don't really have to do anything.
Like in the beginning of this, you don't have to do anything with it. Like, just look at it, hold it, name it, and just wonder about it. Like, I think that is the first step.
And so, I think there's little ways we can help our kids with that, right? Just as we're helping them process things, as we're talking through things, um, we can call out what we think we hear them say, you know, and just say, Hey, it sounds like you had this thought. Is that right?
You know? Um, and just the way we, you know, they can pick things up quickly. So, the way that we teach them to process what they're thinking about, um, is a huge gift to them.
If we can help them name their thoughts and hold them out.
Laura Dugger: (45:09 - 47:07)
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Well, and just want to speak to some of this as well. So, when you were sharing about children, meaning more than actual age children, I was thinking back.
Our oldest daughter, Selah was baptized a couple of years ago and a scripture that was really meaningful to her in that process as she was writing out her testimony and just pondering the work that God had done in her life. She really was impacted by a verse I'd love to read because that's another sure way that God does speak to us is through the word of God. So, the Bible, that's always a way that we can hear from Him.
But this verse is John 8:47, and it says, “Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”
Chris Allen: (47:07 - 50:09)
Well, I think the emphasis that I would point out on that is that it's not that God is not speaking.
It's the reason you don't hear. So, I believe God's pursuing people even that aren't following Him. And even in our case, I think God pursues us even in our disobedience.
But what shifts is our ability to hear. And so, it's like we're tuning in, and that invitation exists for, I think, for all people. It's the opportunity to just tune in more to what God is up to, what He's saying, just by looking at what He's already doing in your life, what's already happening.
Just look around, pay attention, start to notice, start to name it. And like I was saying, if this feels overwhelming, which I think it definitely can, the beautiful thing is we were made for this. Our mind was made to work this way.
It's how God designed it. And one of the final ways that I pushed this across the finish line with the kids was the final logo that I had was Nike. And of course, not only did every kid in the room know the answer to what the brand was, half of them were wearing it.
But if you look back in your life, and this is what I had them do. It's like there's some moment in your life where you were not aware of Nike. You probably were already wearing it, the toddler walking around in it or something. It's all around you.
It's everywhere. Everybody else is wearing it too. You've seen tons of ads and advertisements.
It's everywhere. Yet there was some moment where you didn't know what it was. If you saw the logo, you'd be like, I don't know what that is.
And then at some point you cross this threshold where it's like all of a sudden you learn like, oh, that's Nike. And so, if you could pinpoint that moment in a kid's life, it's like in that moment, you go from like, I don't know, to like, Nike. Well, Nike didn't all of a sudden exist in that moment.
It was no more present than it was before. It was always around you. It was always active.
It was always everywhere. The only thing that changed in that moment is you became aware of it. And that's how I like to think about like what God is up to in our lives.
He is active. He's all over it. He is in your every day and every situation that we're in.
And He is inviting us to participate with Him, to notice Him, to talk with Him about it and to interact with Him through those things. But we just have to become aware of Him. And for me, I think wonder is the thing that helps me shift in that direction, just cultivating wonder.
Mark Dugger: (50:11 - 50:31)
That's awesome. So you talked about with your kids, asking them and follow up questions about their thoughts. But is there any other practical ways you think about bringing this to life with our kids to help them kind of shape some of this line of thinking?
Chris Allen: (50:34 - 52:38)
Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, the other kind of analogy that I've used with my kids as well is where's Waldo? So, my spiritual director, Jeannie Hoover, who's amazing, who lives in Illinois as well, she actually was the one who used this analogy in our conversations first.
But you know, where's Waldo's fun? You get the book or the posters and you're looking for Waldo, right? But you have no chance of finding him.
First, you can't find Waldo unless one, you believe he exists. Two, you know what he looks like. And three, you look for him.
And so that's kind of the starting point. I think an easy starting point with kids, plus you can use the Waldo book and they love it. But they have to believe God exists.
They have to know what He looks like, and they got to start looking for Him. Obviously, we can play a very tangible role in helping them kind of learn what He looks like and helping them look for Him. I think one easy way is like, you know, some kind of daily routine, as maybe you're putting them to bed or debriefing the day.
Or you might ask a simple question like, you know, did you notice God anywhere today? Or was there anything that happened in your life today, you know, where you noticed God? Or you can also go, I think a lot of times we can find Him in the things that we're struggling with.
So, is there anything that happened today that hurt you or didn't sit well with you? But as you help them process that, right, you're kind of looking for where is God in the story? What is he up to?
And helping them connect those dots.
Mark Dugger: (52:40 - 52:41)
Oh, go ahead.
Laura Dugger: (52:41 - 52:44)
Oh, you go first. I wonder if we're on the same thought.
Mark Dugger: (52:44 - 54:00)
I was thinking, I was recently, this is helpful for me personally, but I was recently frustrated about a day or something that happened recently. And I was just, you know, going through the iterations of why this thing caused me frustration. And, you know, it caused me to take out frustration on others that were around me and impacted others.
And then my friend was just casually kind of listening to me and just said, what do you think God's calling you to do in the midst of this? And it was just such a simple yet profound question that I hadn't even considered. Like I wasn't even thinking about God being active and involved in this frustration that was going on in my life because I was so consumed by it.
But yet when I take that moment, I think him asking that question to me, helped me step back out kind of that 10,000 foot view and just say, huh, what, where is God right now in this process? And what is he potentially trying to show me in the midst of this frustration? And I think that's something that our kids can really understand too.
They can really grasp onto that concept. So, I think that's been a helpful one for me.
Laura Dugger: (54:00 - 54:58)
You're both stirring all these ideas because I also think something that Mark's started recently on a Sunday on Sabbath, he loves to go around the table with our kids. And the youngest is five, as you know, Chris, and he'll ask all of us, where did you see God at work in your life this week? And they are able from a young age to think back on their life.
And I think that God does manifest himself to them. But then whether this is a question then for children or adults or everyone, even a conversation that Mark and I have had with you and Rachel before, where when you're going back to something that's happened in the past, asking yourself of that situation, if I go back to that scene in my mind, where was Jesus within that? And that's a pretty profound experience, I would say as well.
Chris Allen: (54:59 - 56:56)
Yeah. Well, I think another something that I would encourage people to think about is this is not something that we have to figure out. That's really God's role is to teach us how to do this.
I think throughout scripture, the posture of curiosity or wonder is encouraged. Just ask, just seek, just knock. And you will find it.
The door will be open to you. And so, I don't think God asks us to figure out how to hear His voice or figure out how He speaks. I think if we come with just a posture of curiosity, which honestly, even that alone takes a little bit of work on our side, right?
But if we just cultivate some curiosity about what he's up to, my experience has been that you will start to notice. If you just focus on noticing and being curious, you will start to notice Him. I think sometimes we focus on the outcome.
We think the intimacy, like if I could hear God well, if I had a conversational life with God, I would experience intimacy with Him, right? But I think the truer thing is that a lot of the intimacy is in the learning. It's in the process.
We just show up, we just cultivate curiosity. And as God teaches us, a lot of the intimacy comes out of the teaching. Like, oh my gosh, that was God.
I just saw Him in a way I hadn't before. And so I think hopefully it takes some of the pressure off and allows us just to start to look for Him.
Mark Dugger: (56:57 - 57:13)
Yeah. This conversation, I think, has been so helpful just to begin the process of thinking about this. Is there anything else that you want to add or help this message stick or bring home deep within us?
Chris Allen: (57:16 - 58:07)
I think I would just say, if you're someone who maybe is not sure that God is speaking, I would just challenge you to pretend that He is. Just try it. Just start looking around, start noticing, and just see what happens.
In my experience, God is fully capable of making Himself known to us. If we just take a step in his direction with curiosity or wonder, He will reveal himself to you. He'll start showing you things.
And it's not constant, right? But over time, your faith will grow that He is speaking, that He does speak, and it will start to transform how you interact with Him.
Laura Dugger: (58:10 - 58:31)
I love it. And I'm going to kind of summarize. Okay, so God speaks to his kids.
We get to participate and cultivate wonder. And a practical thing was to pay attention to our thoughts. With all of this too, Chris, you've alluded to a project.
Do you want to share any more information about that?
Chris Allen: (58:31 - 59:54)
Oh, man. Yeah. So yeah, I've been working on a book for about a year and a half now with my spiritual director, Jamie, who I mentioned, really for adults about wonder.
I think we activate and use wonder a lot as kids, especially when we were kids. I think kids are better, more naturally jumping into wonder. The pool of life for adults is away from wonder.
It's towards the other side of the brain. It's towards be productive, be on time, be on task, get it done. And the more we fill our lives up with things, which as you all, like in this season that we're in, life is very busy, wonder just so easily gets squeezed out.
And so the project I've been working on is really aimed at helping adults cultivate wonder in their life again, specifically around how they interact with God, which probably no surprise at this point in the conversation. But yeah, it's so exciting. I mean, we're down the road, things are starting to solidify, and we got a good bit of work left to do, but I'm really excited about what that will be.
Laura Dugger: (59:55 - 1:00:15)
Well, then we look forward to a part two of this conversation when that's further along. We'd love to have you back, but you are already familiar that we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, Chris, what is your Savvy Sauce?
Chris Allen: (1:00:16 - 1:00:57)
Oh man, well, I think I might be a broken record on this one. So it's probably a summary statement here, but if wonder is our goggles into the kingdom, the question is how can we put them on more? And so, my encouragement is to leverage the things that are already happening in your life to help you cultivate wonder.
And obviously that's what the book is about. So hopefully maybe I can help some people do that more in specific ways once that's out, but that would be my Savvy Sauce.
Laura Dugger: (1:00:58 - 1:01:38)
Love it. Well, I think Mark can share as well, but from the two of us, we just love you and Rachel, and Ryan, Ramsey and Harvey. And Mark and I are so grateful you have profoundly impacted us.
Just the friendship with you guys has been incredible. And also spiritually, we've learned so much from you and hopefully sharpened one another. And I appreciate the impact that the two of you have had on each other spiritually as well.
And I get to enjoy sweet fruit from your amazing and godly friendship. So, thank you for all you shared today. Thank you for your friendship.
And thank you for being our guest.
Chris Allen: (1:01:40 - 1:01:42)
You're very welcome. Thanks for having me on.
Mark Dugger: (1:01:43 - 1:03:04)
Yeah, I was just gonna say thanks. You know, friendship is pretty rare. And it's pretty remarkable just to think about all we've been through together.
But yet, Laura summarized it so well, but you've had such a profound impact on me, even in those years, you know, picking me up in high school ministry when we were doing those, those kinds of things together. And then we shared a mentor with Dave Pridemore, who's actually been a previous guest here on The Savvy Sauce. And just learning more about who we are in Christ.
And you've always been an encouragement to me. And that's just been such a blessing in my life. Just to know that there's always that constant friendship.
And no matter what goes on, no matter how, you know, being states apart, you know, sometimes we're not always talking all the time, but it's always nice to know that you, it's always the same. It's like we picked up right where we left off. And I think that's, that's deeper than just the friendship, but it's the bond that we have in Christ.
And that's, you know, you've challenged me in this way, just to think about wonder, this isn't something that comes to me naturally. And so I'm just very thankful for this conversation. And then just to be able to share some of the things that we've talked about privately, but be able to share with this audience today.
So thanks for doing that.
Chris Allen: (1:03:05 - 1:03:06)
Absolutely.
Laura Dugger: (1:03:07 - 1:06:50)
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?
It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?
Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?
We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.
We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.
Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.
I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.
I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Mar 31, 2025
Monday Mar 31, 2025
258. Pursuing Creative Endeavors and Making Havens While Mothering with Liz Bell Young
Matthew 13:52 "Therefore every scribe who has become a disciple of the kingdom of heaven is like the head of a household, who brings out of his treasure things that are new and fresh and things that are old and familiar."
**Transcription Below**
Questions and Topics We Cover:
- Will you tell us about your journey to becoming the creator of Haven magazine, which was distributed by Anthropologie and also how you were selected to be a contributor to the Magnolia Journal?
- What have you learned about wisely overlapping mothering and pursuing dreams?
- How does writing and sharing stories help us to take good care of one another?
Liz Bell Young is a writer, experience designer and collaborator in the Midwest. Her work appears in Magnolia Journal on the shelves, Artifact Uprising and Darling on the sites, Procter & Gamble in the studios, and Woman Camp in the woods.
A grad of The School of the Art Institute of Chicago + University of Cincinnati, LBY takes a multidisciplinary approach to her work and home. Favorite pairings: words on index cards, words next to rolling film, words covering real paper inside real books. She also adores rocks, oyster shells, the smell of hay and gasoline, old Austrian boots, coffee in small cups. But above all: her life with Ryan and their children.
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank
Other Episodes on The Savvy Sauce Related to Hospitality, Mothering, and Pursuing Creative Endeavors:
1 Finding Your Purpose as a Mom with Courtney DeFeo
9 Self-Care in Motherhood with Karen Stubbs
13 Managing Family, Career, and Health with Leslie Neslage
15 The Supernatural Power Present While Gathering at the Table with Devi Titus
43 Joys and Challenges of Motherhood with Podcaster and Author, April Hoss
46 Encouragement and Inspiration for your Motherhood Journey with Anjuli Paschall
75 Responding to God’s Stirring with Elizabeth Pehrson, Founder of The Exchange
168 Experiencing Joy, Connection, and Nourishment at the Table with Abby Turner
178 Fresh Take on Hospitality with Jaime Farrell
202 Simple Ways to Connect with Our Kids And Enjoy Breaks with Beth Rosenbleeth (Days with Grey)
223 Journey and Learnings as Former Second Lady of the United States with Karen Pence
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:24)
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Duggar, and I'm so glad you're here.
Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness.
Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org.
Liz Bell Young is my kind guest for today. She is an artist and an extremely gifted writer, and I just love the title of her book, Let There Be Havens: An Invitation to Gentle Hospitality.
So, she's going to share stories and offer practical tips for fostering creativity. She's going to talk about attuning to the Holy Spirit in our lives so that we can take good care of one another. And she also offers out-of-the-box ideas for genuine hospitality that creates a haven to offer others.
Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Liz.
Liz Bell Young: (1:25 - 1:28)
Thank you, Laura. It is really good to be here with you.
Laura Dugger: (1:29 - 1:48)
Well, I would love to just begin here because early on in your book, there was a line that grabbed me when you wrote, “I was raised to show love for others through action, not just in theory.” So, will you start there and elaborate and share more about that?
Liz Bell Young: (1:49 - 3:56)
Sure, sure. I have this little part in the book. It's titled; My Dad Gave It Away.
And so, I'll just tell that little story because I think it's pretty representative of how things ended up playing out. But I got home from school one day and my dollhouse was not at home anymore. It was gone.
And I just stood in front of it and, you know, I was so sad. Where's my dollhouse? One of my dad's co-workers had had a horrible house fire.
And so, during the day, my dad had picked a few things from the house that he thought would bless this family, who also had a little girl. And I, as soon as I understood what had happened, you know, I felt I was very okay with that. I was, I grieved my dollhouse, but I thought, you know, when you, when you have something to give to someone who has just lost, you know, they lost really everything that it is, it's so important to do.
And so, my, my dad and my mom were very, very love and action people. You know, probably even more than we talked about it. It was just a lot of, you know, somebody has low air in their tires and my dad's filling it up.
Somebody needs counsel and they take the time to give it. My mom had a friend who was blind. And so, we would spend time like organizing her, her clothing closets and her dishes just so that she could get through.
She was an attorney, but just help her like get through her day a little bit more easy. So, they were very aware of people's needs. And we learned that sometimes like that was at cost to us, you know, giving away something that we actually still could have used or taking the time to go and, you know, paint someone's house when really we wished that we could have gone to the amusement park, you know, things like that.
That, that was their love and action, you know it really affected all of us, I think in a big way. I have three sisters.
Laura Dugger: (3:56 - 4:40)
So, I love that because it's the same setup for our family. We have four daughters. And so that was your book.
But I think that example that you gave just reminds me of scripture. I was reminded of recently from 1 John 3:18, that just says, “Dear children, let us not love with words or speech, but with actions and in truth.” So, it's apparent that you were raised in really good soil with parents who lived and shared this way of life, and they shared the good news of Jesus with you.
But when and how did you make your faith your own and choose to personally follow Christ?
Liz Bell Young: (4:41 - 6:02)
Oh, so if I had to pinpoint a time, I would say it was like a summer camp. I think I was 11 or 12. You know, that often happens, I think, like when you're removed from your environment.
I was just at night standing next to a lake with a counselor and I just, I'd already, I already knew God. I had always sort of felt His voice and presence and whispers. And I also felt familiar with, you know, the enemy's voice.
And I was very aware, you know, I think when you're a really sensitive child sometimes, which I was, you can kind of feel the weight of the spiritual realm. And so, you know, it was a very gradual, I think, thing turning fully to the Lord. But that I do remember that moment at camp where I just was like, I want this always, I want the fullness of this.
And I want to just completely, I just felt so completely in love with Jesus. And I was just like, very, like, lean forward, eager, you know, for that. So, but of course, you know, it's, it's a, it's a process.
There was, there were highs and valleys and all over the place along the way, but that's kind of where it took off.
Laura Dugger: (6:03 - 6:34)
That is really helpful. Even thinking of sensitive children, maybe that resonates with some of us as parents, you've kind of put language around what we may be experiencing. But then just going back further into your story, you're a graduate of the School of the Art Institute of Chicago.
And I'd love to hear some more about the lessons you learned there. So, what are just a couple of stories that stand out from that season of life that ended up shaping you?
Liz Bell Young: (6:35 - 8:51)
Oh, I, it was a really formative time. I actually just, I did my undergrad in social work. And so this was actually graduate school, because I'd always wanted to be a writer or an artist of some sort.
And so finally, after, you know, I took some time off in between undergrad and graduate school, got back and went to the Art Institute. And one of the, the huge moments for me, it's funny for other people, it would have been like just a nothing moment. But we were, I was in a drawing class, we were doing large format charcoal.
And I'm working on a portrait, and I was working like really tediously on the nose. And my professor came up behind me and said, it's a really pretty nose. Is that what you see?
And I looked at it, and I realized I'm drawing from what I've been told a nose should look like from what I've seen from it's, she's like, I think as a writer, because, you know, I was just taking art classes, but primarily there's writers, she's like, I think as a writer, you understand that, like, you don't want to fall into cliche, but what you're doing here is, is a cliche. And so, what you haven't done is you haven't put any of the reality in it, there were no twists and turns, no shadow, barely any. And it looked pretty and commercial.
But it was not, I had not learned like the transparency of an artist yet. I'm starting to learn it with writing, but I had not learned it with a visual. And I often think about that, because, you know, as a creative, or even as a as a mother, as you know, whatever you do, I think it's very easy to just fall into the routine of what you think is the most acceptable, or what you think it's supposed to be like, or look like.
And getting, getting to that, like honest transparency, whether as a creative, or, you know, whatever you're doing, I think is so freeing, but it really took someone to point out where I was like, where I was not free.
Laura Dugger: (8:52 - 9:21)
Wow, that's so helpful. Art just unlocks all kinds of things within us. So that's a really helpful example.
And this next question, I guess, kind of comes from two angles. So first, was creativity encouraged in the home you grew up in? And then also now, as a mother, how have you cultivated an atmosphere in your home, where all of the family members are free to create?
Liz Bell Young: (9:24 - 11:22)
Yes, we, and I don't want to paint an idyllic childhood, because we certainly had hard points in all of this. But my mom was an art teacher, and my dad is a very, like, inventive engineer type person. So, and yet, they're very organized and orderly people.
So it was sort of this funny contrast of like, free spirit mixed with like, responsibility, you know. And so, we were allowed to sit on the counter and make up a cake recipe while my mom was making dinner, big art pieces on the driveway, we could make spontaneous choices to put up a fort under the kitchen table. So, there was a lot of like, creative flexibility in the house.
And then at the end of the day, we had to clean up like it wasn't, it wasn't like a without regulation or without responsibility to take care of the things that you own. And so I think that's what I've tried to, you know, give to our children is just like, this spirit of invent things, try things, mix things together. We did homeschool for a little bit, turns out I wasn't a great homeschool teacher.
It was very difficult for me. I thought it would be fun, but I just wanted to, you know, do art and play all day. So, I kind of missed the other stuff.
But you know, but during that time, like, you know, getting to make maps on the driveway and put rocks and sticks in places, like all of that was like, really taken from my childhood and like, you know, what I wanted to give to give our kids and still recognize like those, those boundaries of like, you know, then when we're working or, you know, I'm working in the house, like I need you to be quiet. So again, and like, not like the free for all, but still a lot of free.
Laura Dugger: (11:23 - 12:06)
Well, and it makes me think of one of your quotes on page 104. I just thought this was really helpful because everybody were made in the creator's image. So, there is some creativity in each of us, but you said in the design process, it does wonders to make a physical mood board.
I realized maybe I was struggling because I had only made word lists and digital mock-ups. What I actually needed was to make the process physical. So then when I read that, my question for you, Liz, is how can we actually make that creative process physical and help our children to do the same?
Liz Bell Young: (12:08 - 14:27)
Yeah. Well, I, I, I really do love physicality. I think I, I got to the point where I was working so much that I just kind of got stuck on this screen a little bit too often.
So the, what I was talking about in the book is when we were did like designing and building a house that we're now in. And I was really, you know, it was just so much it was, yeah, it was pretty bound to screens and spreadsheets and lists, like trying to like get it all organized. And I just felt like I couldn't it wasn't cohesive.
I couldn't feel it. I had to experience it. And so that's just when I, you know, began to make it physical.
And I think it's important, like you know, a lot of just, if you just think about the design world or interior design, a lot of people will do this. It's like, you know, you put your piece of tile next to the piece of carpet next to the, which I think is wonderful. But then what I recognize is if it's, if it stops there, it's, that's actually not representative of what it's going to be like.
And so, what we need to have is like the parts of our lives that that is getting added to. And so, putting in like, I mean, I just started adding in the stuff that's like always around our house. Lots of paper, of course, because I just love paper, kids homework, you know, little clay pots, the things that we that we bring to it.
So, it didn't feel like a sterile environment. So that, that was that whole like physicality and live into something. And it was literally just out, you know, on a table.
Unfortunately, it was our kitchen table. And I kept it out for way too long. So, we had to eat around it.
But yeah, I think that that's really helpful, especially for children, too. I don't, this isn't quite the parallel, but I was thinking like, you know, a lot like when you have teenagers, like I have a son who plays basketball, we, we have the best conversations when we're playing basketball together. And so just like being physical, like while we're in conversation versus just this, like, I'm trying to talk to you about this, you know, that's been really helpful for us parenting teens.
Laura Dugger: (14:28 - 16:26)
Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. Midwest Food Bank exists to provide industry leading food relief to those in need while feeding them spiritually. They are a food charity with a desire to demonstrate God's love by providing help to those in need.
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The remaining 1% of income is used for fundraising, cost of leadership, oversight, and other administrative expenses. Donations, volunteers, and prayers are always appreciated for Midwest Food Bank. To learn more, visit midwestfoodbank.org or listen to episode 83 of The Savvy Sauce, where the founder, David Kieser, shares miracles of God that he's witnessed through this nonprofit organization. I hope you check them out today.
Even back to just a small thing that also came into mind. I loved how you said physically you would bring nature into your home for designing.
And if you didn't have access to a flower, you would grab something green in the backyard. And it just had never occurred to me that I could do that and just grab some leaves or a branch. And you even have pictures of that beautiful example in your book.
Liz Bell Young: (16:27 - 16:39)
Oh, yes. I love cutting branches off trees and bringing them inside, mostly because I forget to plant flowers. And so, like, I don't, you know, I could buy them, but I love branches inside.
Laura Dugger: (16:40 - 17:03)
Such a creative idea. But you've gone on to have some pretty remarkable experiences in your career. So, will you tell us about your journey to becoming the creator of Haven Magazine, which was distributed by Anthropologie, and then also how you were selected to be a contributor to the Magnolia Journal?
Liz Bell Young: (17:05 - 20:59)
Oh, sure. At some point, either I read it or somebody taught me this, I can't remember, about, like, making something that you want to make before you're asked to make it. And so, as a young writer, you know, I didn't have a portfolio.
I didn't have anything impressive. I'm trying to just, like, get into something with a pub, just something published, you know, that's not just, you know, me stapling a book together. And it was, you know, it was very difficult.
I mean, trying to get into travel or food writing, you know, anything, and it's just, like, rejection, rejection. And so, I just decided then, well, I have to make it. I have to figure out a way to create it myself.
And I had talented friends who were also trying to, you know, get published or get their photography out or art, whatever it was. And so, just getting that group of people together with this vision for what I wanted Haven Magazine to be, and then just doing the work ahead of time. Nobody asked for it.
Nobody wanted it. And found somebody who believed in the vision for it, who would, like, donate paper at cost. You know, so, like, we found some things to make it, like, a lighter financial lift, for sure.
And that was the beginning. So, that, and then I forget. My husband uses a word for this that I, it's not like, I don't know, grit or gumption.
I, like, I love challenge. I love trying to get something that feels nearly impossible, and any side door, just trying, trying, trying. And so, that's how, like, getting into anthropology did take a long time.
I can't even think about, maybe two years, a year and a half. And when I finally got the first one that I made through the door, and I had somebody looking at it who, you know, had clout, had the ability to make decisions, their feedback to me was, you're on to something really beautiful here, but I think that you're actually not following, like, I think you're trying, it was, again, like, the nose in art school. I was making something that I thought, okay, this is what people want right now, except it was a little bit more about, kind of, wanderlust, and travel, and that sort of thing.
And the woman on the phone was like, I think your heart is actually really about home. And so, are you afraid to take it there? And she said, you need to also just get better.
Like, I needed to, as a publication, like, I had to tighten things that, like, it wasn't, it wasn't on par with something that they would sell. And so, I did those two things. I was like, okay, well, then we have to do it again.
This one was at higher cost, you know, didn't get the donated paper this time. And my husband and I were just like, let's just do it. It feels like it's a good direction.
And so, the second one is the one that Anthropology distributed. And I'm very thankful that they pushed me as hard as they did, because a lot of times, you're just experimenting and trying something, and you have to go through these refining processes. You have to be humble enough to be like, okay, I recognize, you're right, that's not good enough for your shelf.
And it wasn't even like she challenged me, it wasn't where it was like trying to go, you know, or she didn't say this, but maybe it's that probably wasn't going in the direction that my heart and where God was pushing me wanted it to go. So, being willing to, you know, change direction a little bit with it and, and work hard to get after it. So, that was that part.
Yeah.
Laura Dugger: (21:00 - 21:24)
Yes. And before you share about Magnolia Journal, just to comment on that, I think as believers, that probably deeply resonates with all of us that we all are so eagerly anticipating coming home, like with a capital H to having, and so even displaying that in your magazine. I love that she pushed you as well, but then yes, continue with the rest of the journey.
Liz Bell Young: (21:26 - 23:49)
Okay. So, then I worked at a church for about 11 years, and that was a huge process of just getting, just getting more, just getting better as a writer. You know, I had done a school, but I needed practice and, and worked with a lot of designers.
So, I was getting this kind of multidisciplinary background built up. So, helping with set design, helping with video, so kind of, you know, the fullness of storytelling. But of course, primarily, I still, writing was my number one love.
And then I, after 11 years working for this church, I just, I was finished. I knew I was finished and I had been freelancing a lot on the side. So, I've always loved to be kind of in different places, not just all, you know, kind of in one spot.
And just decided to go for it and just go full freelance. And I was really nervous, very, very nervous because I, I loved, I really amazing creatives that I was working at, really great spiritual leaders. And so, to walk away from that and just think like, am I just going to be by myself?
Like trying to, you know, meld into other teams, whoever, whoever my clients are. So, it was like, I was nervous, but I also felt like it was the right time to do it. And then very soon after that, an editor from Magnolia reached out.
They just happened to be looking for someone to write a story about camping. And I had been a big part of creating a camping experience for the church I was working for. And like, because I had been in anthropology where some of the people from Magnolia now worked.
So, there, you know, again, it was just like relationship stuff that put my work in front of a person who didn't know me. And then, you know, they had a topic that they thought, well, who do we have who knows about, you know, writing about the outdoors and camping? Oh, I heard that there's this woman in Ohio, right?
So, that's, they, and then they just asked me to write a story. And I wrote that one and then just kept writing. So, it's been years now.
Laura Dugger: (23:50 - 25:00)
I love that. So, fun to hear the backstory. But in the midst of building your career, you and your husband, Ryan, also have raised three children.
And again, I just want to quote you. So, on page 56, you write, “I knew I could not be a singularly focused person. I have no desire to be a solitary novelist. I want to be right in the middle of all my people, heart full and available, hands designing books, but also packing lunches. So, on some days I worked and some mornings I wrote. Then on other days, Ryan and I would drive our kids to a farm and pick blueberries and eat cider doughnuts.”
And I just love that. It was so relatable, especially to fellow moms who maybe are also squeezing in their own side career or creative endeavor while also raising children. And so, my question from your story is this, what have you learned about wisely overlapping, mothering, and pursuing dreams?
Liz Bell Young: (25:02 - 28:40)
I don't, well, oh my goodness. This, it was true trial and error, and I still am making errors. But I think that, you know, it's hard.
It's definitely hard because there's a lot of just internal struggle in that, right? Like, I have this artist passion and heart. And so, I want to be, to, you know, work in that space.
And I don't want my kids to feel like I'm choosing that over them. And I know that it's also very good for them to be a part of that, to see it come to fruition. I think I learned a little bit by taking it too far, maybe a lot bit by taking it too far.
And I don't know how to necessarily avoid that. I think, I didn't know what too far was for me. I was getting sort of more and more sleep deprived without quite recognizing that I was starting to, like, sacrifice my health.
I was starting to, you know, get kind of that dizzy vertigo stuff that can happen with stress, but you don't know it's stress. Or I didn't. I just thought, okay, I'm tired.
I need a break. But it was hard. It was hard to stop.
I just wanted to fit everything in. So, I think I took it too far and then I recognized, okay, this is what too far feels like. And so, now, I have to be way better to protect my health, my, our marriage, just to make, you know, just, like, we wanted time for that.
I was, like, you know, books aren't more important than Ryan. And so, I used to do things, like, whenever the client wanted a meeting, I would just take it. Now, what I've learned is, like, I will not overpack things.
I will make sure that it works for our schedule. And just putting, that was a big one for me. Because I'd be, like, super sweaty trying to take a Zoom call while I'm at a park with three, you know, like, it doesn't work.
Or it didn't work for me. And so, I had to learn, like, don't, like, I would set myself up for failure a little bit. And so, just reining that in and kind of having better boundaries about that.
Still getting the sleep I needed. But I create best in the morning. And so, saying, like, okay, for this season, I will get up really early in the because I want this a lot.
And then I want to be able to have breakfast with my kids. And so, I just, you know, made that adjustment. So, yeah.
I guess that's the trial and error piece. But I do think if you, like, I also have friends who have not, who have put it all aside. And so, then that's very hard.
I think sometimes, especially when their kids are all in school or, you know, like, they're empty nesters or whatever. And then, like, you haven't had, you haven't had the chance to be, like, practicing in that and exploring that. And so, then there's this sort of loss and grief felt.
So, I think it's good even if it's just, like, dabbling in it. If that's a part of who you are, and creativity, or it doesn't just have to be creativity, of course. Whatever it is, if you can at least maybe just dabble, I think it's really good.
Laura Dugger: (28:41 - 29:05)
I think that's helpful. That's a message of freedom that gives us permission. And that it's not selfish to do that.
It can actually be really wise stewardship. I'm curious, too, what have your children said? Have they given any feedback or appreciation even of seeing you pursue your dreams and be all in with the family?
Liz Bell Young: (29:06 - 29:55)
Oh, that's a good question. I didn't used to really bring them into what I was doing and why I was doing it. I don't know why I didn't earlier.
I have since, like, now they're also, like, older and can comprehend more of it now. I've since kind of just brought them more into, this is what I'm doing, and this is why I care about writing this story. This is why this book matters to me, or why I'm helping someone else with their project.
And that has been better. I would include them, like, sometimes they would help me make stuff, or sell stuff, or deliver things. So, they were a part of that piece of it, but not, like, the sort of the heart and mind piece of it.
Laura Dugger: (29:56 - 30:03)
That's helpful. So, you brought them in where possible. I wonder if any of them will, even in some ways, follow in your footsteps.
Liz Bell Young: (30:05 - 30:29)
Yeah, we'll see. We'll see. I don't know.
I think it's, well, it's just fun to watch them. I know you, you know, with your girls, you probably feel the same way. And trying not to, like, over shape them, but just, like, create the space for them to try the things that they, you know, that they feel the direction that it's toward.
Laura Dugger: (30:29 - 32:27)
Yes. When was the first time you listened to an episode of The Savvy Sauce? How did you hear about our podcast?
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Thank you so much for being willing to be generous with your time and share. We appreciate you. Well, I just want to draw one other point, too, that you talk about in your book.
When you talk about a woman with a pen, and that deeply resonated with me. And I see the power of a person with a pen because the written word is clearly such a gift, obviously, with God preserving the Bible for us. But in the Bible, the person with a pen can be described as a scribe.
And it makes me think of this scripture from Matthew 13:52, where Jesus says, “Therefore, every scribe who has become a disciple of the kingdom of heaven is like the head of the household who brings out of his treasure things that are new and fresh and things that are old and familiar.” So, that's where my mind goes when I read your beautiful words, Liz. But I want to hear your unique take on this.
So, how does writing and sharing stories help us to even take good care of one another?
Liz Bell Young: (32:29 - 35:10)
I love that scripture that you just read, too. I think that when you decide to write that way, because I even talk about it in my journey as a writer, I wasn't always doing that. I could feel, I sort of had this melancholic spirit at times, especially in my 20s.
And I felt like I was actually pushing into places that I didn't want to be. And so, I thought, why am I bringing a reader there? Or writing in a way that I think stories can also be so sort of self-focused or insulated into that they're actually not offering generous space for the reader.
So, I think about that a lot. I think about how stories can take care of people. I mean, they're just like little portals or doorways into connection, whether it's because somebody relates to a thing that happened.
Like sometimes I think it can be that specific, but sometimes it's just, that's exactly how I felt. And I didn't know how to articulate it. I have this story that felt so big to me, but really small.
I didn't even know if I should put it in the book, but it was just about breaking a carton of eggs when I was babysitting and the shame that the parents walked in and saw the eggs all over the floor. And it was just horrible for me. Really small thing that happened that could seem really trivial to one person.
But then what it really was just about was shame and then grace for yourself and believing that you, you know, what, believing in your worth. And so that's where the story ends. It's real short.
It's like a page. Well, all my stories are short, I think. But I shared that story for some reason has been the one that most people have come back and said, I needed that story.
They didn't break a carton of eggs, but they knew that, that sense, that depth of shame. And so that's where I think stories can take care of people and then taking it to a place of hope and forgiveness and leaving enough white space, even metaphorically, for someone to enter into that story is something that I think about for taking care of someone.
Laura Dugger: (35:11 - 36:02)
That's so good. And it makes me think at our church on Wednesday nights, I'm in the room with second through fifth grade girls and our theme verse two verses from Psalm 78 verses four and seven, just talking about sharing stories with the next generation and ultimately about God's power and his righteous deeds. But I think that is such a way to take care of the next generation.
Stories are powerful. We see that in Jesus. And I was so blessed by all of your stories.
So again, your book is entitled, Let There Be Havens: An Invitation to Gentle Hospitality. So, let's kind of shift gears. And will you explain and define what a haven is and just hear a little bit more about hospitality and creating havens?
Liz Bell Young: (36:03 - 38:13)
Oh, sure. It kind of took me a minute to figure this out because I had a sense of what I wanted and thought that a haven and taking care of people was. And the way I describe it in the book is that it's people who shelter us, places that hold us and experiences that lift us up.
So, when I think about hospitality and taking care of people and just being like a little cove for someone, maybe it's so temporary because it's just, you know, passing on the street and it's something that you can do, or maybe it's something more permanent, you know, like the relationship you have with your children. And I think of it as like gentle and grounding. So, it's not over the top or forced or rigid, or it's not putting myself in the spotlight.
I think a lot of times hospitality and the pressures that come with it are because we've been sort of accumulating this message that it's a performance. And so, I think that gentle hospitality or havens is when you're just creating spaces for people, whether it's physical or emotional, and they feel easy in that space. They feel safe.
They feel like the grounding part is just, you know, it's a step outside the wild waters or the chaos of other things that are happening. It gives a chance to catch your breath, feel cheered for, loved by someone. And so that's what I see a haven as.
And the picture that I have in my mind, which I took a picture out in California that I put in the book, and it's just this rocky coast, but it just has that swoop of a cove, and the waters are quieter there. And I mean, you know, 10 feet away, it's not quiet, but just right there, there's a pause. It's a safe, easy place.
And so that's what I think of for haven.
Laura Dugger: (38:15 - 38:21)
And what are a few practical ways that you've created havens in your own life?
Liz Bell Young: (38:26 - 40:53)
I've always, well, I did want to open a little hotel when I was little. So, I always loved thinking about like overnight spaces for people. So, we really, that's, that is a very, that's sort of the obvious, I think, kind of in my mind of like, what is like creating a literal space?
We've had to do it on couches and in a van, like we haven't always had a guest room. Right now we do. But just like being resourceful and trying to think of like, what's a way to make someone feel like really taken care of in this space?
Like bring a lamp and a coffee maker, even if it's on a couch, give them a stack of books that you think that they would love and that sort of thing. So that's, that would be a haven in my mind. I think, and I learned this in social work actually, but where you like when you're with someone, okay, this is a little bit more of sort of being an emotional, but physical presence haven is like, I try not to top someone else's emotions.
So, like if they're really upset or they're grieving, instead of just like meeting them or even like going above it, like just to be more like just with them and hang out like a little bit under that. Like, again, it's not, it's not about you. It's about the company, you know, that you keep with someone.
So just being next to someone, holding onto their arm when they're grieving. I, and I've had great examples of this, but like you can tell someone awkward or alone and you just go and you just go next to them. You don't draw attention to it.
You just become present. Holding the doors for people. This is a big thing for my parents.
Like, oh, we always must hold doors for people. And the part that I, that then someone, another mentor taught me was just to like delight in people's presence. So, when somebody does come in, whether you know them or not, whether it's a child or your husband, but you've already seen him 10 minutes ago, but like still like beaming on, on them because you love that they're there and that they're with you and that they're here, you know, on earth.
And so, I think, you know, beaming is a big one for me, for taking care and showing hospitality. Yeah.
Laura Dugger: (40:54 - 41:08)
That's so good. I love that word. And what are some other tips for ways that all of us can take care of the people in our lives and help them to feel known and cherished and treasured?
Liz Bell Young: (41:08 - 42:51)
Oh, well, I'm sure if I was in your Sunday school class, if I was a second through fifth grade, I would feel exactly this because I think like, um, again, like you're just giving, you're giving those girls like your heart and attention for that 45 minutes or hour. And you know, you're getting, um, you're getting like eye to eye with them. And like you said, sharing stories and just like being concerned with them as children, as people.
And so that I think it's, I don't want to like make it more than it is. I think, I think that's been part of the problem with like the sort of the pressure of like, how can I be like the best caretaker or like the, like a really great hostess. And I think like the very first thing is just the position of your heart and just connecting to someone and they're telling a story and you listen to it instead of just trying to trump their story with your own, you know, or, um, giving someone something that, you know, that they would love, you know, that, that simple.
Um, and so it's just, I guess that's just paying attention, Laura, right? Like just paying attention to people and what would even just give them a moment of reprieve or a moment of joy, a moment of inclusion and trying to like follow, um, I mean, the Holy spirit will nudge the heck out of you, you know, so you can like listening to the Holy spirit and then like listening to people. And I think that that, um, it really brings you into that space of, of genuine and gentle hospitality.
Laura Dugger: (42:52 - 44:11)
Well, in genuine and gentle, those are some great words to describe even how I experience you as a writer. And I'll just share one more of my favorite practical tips that you listed for ways to take care of people, I guess, because I've been a recipient of this and it instantly made me think of my own dear mom, who I adore. And she has just rocked mothering since the baby phase.
And even as we're adults now, I don't know how she does it, but she just loves so well and every season. And so, I thought of her when you said on page 28, a way to show how to take care of others. You write help a friend or sibling with a couple things on their to-do list.
Jump starts are huge gifts. And I just thought, wow, practically like thinking of being a young mother and having my mom come along and give a jump start. Those times, you know, still impact us today.
And what a great example. So, your book is full of ideas like this. And so, if anybody wants to pick up their own copy or continue learning ways that they can also create havens, where would you direct all of us to go after this conversation, Liz?
Liz Bell Young: (44:11 - 44:58)
Oh, well, thanks for asking. I think the book is the best place, partly because I'm pretty quiet on social media. And I just can't find my rhythm there.
But maybe just because I love books so much, but I really try to give everything that I could think of to these specific pages. And so, I mean, you can buy it on Amazon, Target, Barnes & Noble, you know, all the book places. Magnolia will be selling it, I think, or it might be for sale there right now.
And yeah, that's it. And I have a website, lizbellyoung.com. So, if you want to visit me there too.
Laura Dugger: (44:58 - 45:23)
Wonderful. Yes, we can add that link in the show notes. But that is wonderful.
And congrats. That's so exciting being sold all those places. You may be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight.
And so, as my final question for you today, Liz, what is your Savvy Sauce?
Liz Bell Young: (45:26 - 46:20)
I think it's calm. I was thinking about how I have learned even because I love to solve problems and try to figure things out. And if I can even do that with a calm spirit, even if I have to work fast and hard, but if I can have that calmness or Megan Fate has a book, Relaxed, which I haven't even read yet, but I'm excited to because I think it's this similar note where, you know, I think it's the way that Jesus like literally lived was just in this relaxed and calm state.
And so that's I've always loved calm and very drawn to it, people who are calm. And I think it's what I try to embody myself.
Laura Dugger: (46:21 - 46:54)
I've gotten to be the recipient of that calm and relaxed posture from you today, but you're also so thoughtful of others and gentle and talented. And I'm leaving this chat so encouraged with the way that you've stepped into your unique design by our creator. And I just pray it inspires all of us to delight ourselves in the Lord and allow him to give us the desires of our hearts.
So, thank you very much, Liz, for being my guest today.
Liz Bell Young: (46:55 - 47:02)
Thank you, Laura. It was great to be with you. It really was.
I'm so glad I got to talk to you. Likewise.
Laura Dugger: (47:03 – 50:46)
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?
It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?
Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?
We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.
We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.
Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.
I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.
I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.