529.3K
Downloads
399
Episodes
Do you want ideas for questions to deepen your conversations? Do you want to feel intimately connected to your spouse? Do you desire to parent with purpose? If so, tune in each Monday with Laura, a licensed marriage and family therapist who specialized in Christian sex therapy. She interviews the best faith-based speakers to answer our questions and doesn't shy away from a wide range of difficult topics. Sexual intimacy is discussed once a month so that you can delight in your marital relationship, feel equipped to teach your children about sex, and learn practical ways to overcome hurt or addiction. Episodes on health and wellness cover topics of hormones and free lifestyle swaps, perimenopause, and what simple practices yield HUGE health benefits. Marital experts teach conflict resolution that actually works, parenting pros share wisdom from newborns to adult children, business leaders let us in on secrets of the trade, and the foundation of everything is Jesus Christ! Find joy here and live on purpose as you consider, “What’s your savvy sauce?!"
Episodes
7 days ago
7 days ago
Toxic Relationships: Recognizing Narcissism in a Spouse, Parent, or Child with Kris Reece (Episode 288)
*Disclaimer* This episode contains mature content and user discretion is suggested.
Proverbs 27:6 AMP “Faithful are the wounds of a friend [who corrects out of love and concern], But the kisses of an enemy are deceitful [because they serve his hidden agenda].”
*Transcription Below*
Kris Reece is a Christian Author, Toxic Relationship Coach, and Manipulation Tactics Specialist. Kris equips believers to escape the grip of toxic relationships—especially those shaped by guilt, confusion, or spiritual distortion. Her work empowers Christians to set biblical boundaries and walk in emotional and spiritual freedom. Connect with her on Instagram or through her website.
Thank you to our sponsor for today’s episode: Midwest Food Bank
Topics and Questions We Cover:
- In your opinion, can you be a Christian and a narcissist?
- Will you share a few of the toxic tactics narcissists use for power and control in relationships?
- Will you define codependency for us and also reactive abuse and trauma bond?
Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce Podcast:
146 Biblical Response to Emotionally Destructive Relationships with Leslie Vernick
148 Overcoming Evil with Good: Recognizing Spiritual Abuse with Dr. Diane Langberg
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
*Transcription*
Music: (0:00 – 0:10)
Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:29) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.
My captivating guest for this week is Kris Reece. She has an abundance of resources available online, and she's actually recently had this book published, Breaking the Narcissist's Grip. I cannot recommend this episode enough to you to find out about toxic relationships, whether that's with your parents or your adult children or your spouse. She's going to do a deep dive into narcissism. Help us understand it, help us identify those people in our lives, and most importantly, offer some hope, which is only possible through Jesus Christ. Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Kris.
Kris Reece: (1:31 - 1:34) Thank you so much for having me. I am so blessed to be here.
Laura Dugger: (1:34 - 1:48) Well, I am so grateful to have you, and you are in a unique line of work that is so needed. How did you get into this work of offering Christian advice for toxic relationships?
Kris Reece: (1:50 - 4:16) Well, I'll give you the short version of that story. So, I had been in the fitness industry for a good 20 plus years, and I went back to school for counseling and theology because I really wanted to be able to help people emotionally and mentally as opposed to just physically, right?
So, as I started to counsel people, there were women that were coming to me from all walks of life and all ages. I'm talking 16 years old all the way up to 86 years old. And no matter what their issue was, no matter what they were struggling with, they were coming to me for purpose or just growing in their faith. It all came down to one thing. And Laura, I think this might surprise you just as much as it surprised me. Toxic mothers. I was floored. And this wasn't the kind of thing where now we're just blaming mom for everything. No, this started to get revealed on all of the dysfunctions that were taking place within their relationship with their mother and how it had impacted them in so many areas of their lives. So, I said, “Lord, I need to dive deeper into this.” Now, I had already come out of, unfortunately, several toxic narcissistic relationships, not with my mother. So, that was very foreign to me. So, I started to dive deeper into how those same traits applied. And it was sad and it was very scary. So, I started teaching more on that.
And then they started coming out of the woodwork. But what about my husband? What about my daughter? What about my boss? What about my... And it was just like a flood. And it reached a point where, Laura, I got to confess to you. I took this to the Lord and I said, please don't send me. I don't want to do this. This is toxic. It's like you're just dealing with this toxicity all day long. And once I began to rest in, not just talking about the toxic relationships, but understanding where His heart was in it and the healing that He wants, not only for the toxic people, but those weren't the ones that were coming to me, the ones that were affected and infected by it, is when my heart started to shift. I said, “okay, God, all right, send me.” And here we are. Many, many years later.
Laura Dugger: (4:16 - 4:41) Well, you've done some incredible work. And I am shocked by that answer. Can you clarify too with the toxic mothers? That's not speaking to the mom who's trying her best asking the Lord for help and yet making mistakes. Would you consider them as mothers who are narcissists or does toxic embrace a wider?
Kris Reece: (4:41 - 6:01) Toxic can embrace a much wider spectrum. It could be borderline personality disorder, even a lot of codependent traits. If they're not harnessed properly or surrendered to the Lord, it can be very toxic to our relationship. You know, you're dealing with the guilt and the manipulation. No, we are not in any way talking about a mother who's made some mistakes, hands up, who's surrendering all this to the Lord and really just trying to find her way, you know, regardless of whether it's a newborn, an infant, a teenager or an adult child.
That's not what I'm referring to as a toxic mother. And some of them do struggle because it's so common for, I guess, young adults at this point to just be like, my mom's toxic because your mother had an opinion, because your mother is trying to get a little bit more time with you. Now, all of a sudden she's toxic. So, the label is unfortunate, but no, we're not referring to that type of mother. We're talking about the ones that have been approached lovingly and gently and are still standing firm in their manipulation, their guilt, their no, this is my way or the highway, their distorted view of scripture. I don't care if you're two or 42, you're called to obey me. That's the kind of toxic mother we're talking about.
Laura Dugger: (6:01 - 6:13) That is helpful. And then just to zero in on that term, narcissist, can you just help us understand what characteristics define a narcissist?
Kris Reece: (6:14 - 8:00) Yeah, absolutely. So, at its core, narcissism is less about confidence and it's more about this distorted sense of self. And that distorted sense is what damages relationships. Psychologically, narcissism can actually be marked by three pillars.
Number one is an exaggerated sense of self-importance. They quite honestly believe that the world revolves around them. Two is a deep need for admiration. They crave validation and praise, and we call that supply. So, if you're giving it to them, you're on their good side. You're not, you're on the bad side. And then lastly is their lack of empathy. This is a true hallmark of narcissism. But I know you didn't ask this, but we kind of go down a little bit of a rabbit trail.
Now that narcissists are starting to catch on to what these traits look like, they're doing what we call performative empathy. So, they're looking and they're saying all the right words. One of my, I love to say is they got the words, they ain't got the music. So, you really have to understand what true empathy looks like, but they lack empathy. So, and then what happens is from those traits are going to flow three roots, entitlement, arrogance, and manipulation. They twist everything and it's all about them. And one of the things that we need to understand is that a one-time selfish act doesn't make someone a narcissist. I've said some things that, oh boy, that I need to repent of. It doesn't make somebody a narcissist, but a lifestyle of self-protective empathy, lacking behavior at the expense of others. Yeah. Raise the red flag.
Laura Dugger: (8:01 - 8:22) That's helpful. That even shows us the difference between a little self-absorbed or mistakes made and a narcissist. But then I'm also curious as we're raising children, do these traits show up early in life or when are they usually identifiable?
Kris Reece: (8:23 - 10:25) That's a great question. One that I don't think you're ever going to be able to get a solid answer from anyone on, because narcissistic traits, while they don't just appear out of nowhere, we can say that they're formed in childhood. And we can say that probably almost every child is a bit narcissistic. I mean, we don't get like the terrible mind, mind twos from nowhere. I mean, as children, as human beings, I mean, even scripture tells us we are innately selfish. Our heart is deceptively wicked. So, the point of childhood is for the parents to now pull that out of the child, to grow that out. Right. And a lot of times that doesn't take place. So, what we have to understand is that the roots usually form in childhood, but the fruit shows up later in life.
So, in childhood, you may notice things like entitlement, this extreme sensitivity to criticism, but kids, like we said, are naturally self-focused. So, that's actually going to be part of their normal development. So, kids are self-centered by nature, but narcissism becomes very concerning when someone never grows out of it. So, when we start to see by the teen years, you see that pattern take place and how they handle correction, how they handle empathy and accountability. And if empathy isn't growing, but entitlement is, oh, we've got a pretty big sign. So, now by adulthood, those narcissistic traits, they just become unmistakable.
You see the manipulation, the blame shifting, the lack of accountability, the control, especially when life requires any type of humility. So, immaturity says, I messed up. Narcissism says, you made me do it.
Laura Dugger: (10:25 - 11:04) Oh, that's helpful. And I guess just to put parents at ease, if they are parenting, let's say tweens and teens, I'd love to hear your take on this, but something we learned in grad school was that they said, “don't freak out when your child, even when your teen does this, because a lot of times teenagers could be fitting all of the description in the DSM for multiple things.” And that is part of adolescence and going through puberty and everything. But what I hear you saying is then if that pattern continues into adulthood, especially as you're developing certain things, but lacking empathy, that's one big concern. Is that correct?
Kris Reece: (11:04 - 12:07) That is correct. That is why they don't diagnose teenagers with narcissism, because quite honestly, I would say about 98% of them would be diagnosed. So, no, that's why we don't, because a lot of teenagers are that way. So, yes, don't panic if your teenagers are acting that way. But the other thing that I would also say is don't chalk it up to a phase. It's a great opportunity to speak the truth in love. You may not think they're hearing it. You may not think they're receiving it, but we are responsible as parents for obedience, not outcome. Of course, we want the best outcome for our children possible, but we can't just chalk up those traits as, ah, they're just being teenagers. Ah, it's just a phase. No, as your parent, I need to teach you and train you out of that phase, not force you out of the phase, but I need to train you out of that phase. And then the rest is going to be up to them.
Laura Dugger: (12:07 - 12:22) That's good. Knowing who's part to own. And would you say part of that then is disciplining them and discipling them, training them in the ways that we would think of or anything that you would add for how to help train our children out of these characteristics?
Kris Reece: (12:23 - 13:39) Absolutely. So, we do want to train them in the way they're supposed to go. So, when there is entitlement, we don't chalk it up to a phase. We don't continue to give what they're expecting. So, there needs to be consequences for behavior. And I'm not talking harsh punishment, but there's two sides. So, if there is really bad behavior that needs to stop, then there needs to be a consequence for that. On the flip side, if it's behavior that could kind of be borderline, and I don't mean borderline personality, I just mean borderline in terms of is this bad or is this a phase, then it's a talking too.
Hey, why did you decide to handle your classmate in this way? What do you think could have been a better way? What was the point of your outcome? What were you hoping the outcome would be, I should say? And then starting to really guide them through that, because they're still in their very formative years in terms of processing, in terms of how to cope with things. So, if they're now going to start defaulting to patterns that maybe that was taught or caught, we really want to take that opportunity to train them out of that. And we can do that with gentleness and love. And then, of course, use consequences when necessary.
Laura Dugger: (13:40 - 13:52) That is so well summed up, Kris. I appreciate that. And then what are some types of narcissism that make it especially difficult to recognize at first?
Kris Reece: (13:53 - 16:40) Oh, my favorite one. And I say that with seeping sarcasm. Is the covert narcissist. We would call that one the quiet one. And now if you want to add another layer of complexity, the Christian covert narcissist. This one is going to be the hardest type to detect because they don't look confident. They look wounded. They use self-pity. They use guilt. They use this emotional fragility. But they're using it to control others. And what we have to recognize is covert narcissists, they don't dominate the room. They dominate your emotions. They play the victim. So, you now feel responsible for their feelings, their life, their outcome. That's a scary one.
The other one is what we call the communal or we could refer to them as more of the spiritual narcissist. This is what we would refer to as the helper or the holy one. So, they appear really generous. Big servant's heart, maybe in a serving profession. They're spiritually devoted, but it's all about image. And they're going to use the good deeds. They're going to use the faith, the ministry, or their morality as proof of their superiority. And they may quote the Bible, but they will use shame, silence, and scripture to control others.
And the other one is, this is a little bit more of the obvious one, but we often disguise this in our society. And that's the overt. This is your classic narcissist. This is the one that people recognize. They're loud, they're attention seeking, they're boastful, they're arrogant, and they are just outwardly entitled. But we often, depending on the position that they're in, in business or politics, we're like, oh, they're confident. Oh, they're good leaders. They could be classic overt narcissists. And a lot of times these narcissists really go unrecognized because they always, always start with the charm or the kindness. My favorite is the connection. They establish this connection with you. They're gonna mirror your values, your interests, and yes, even your faith. And a lot of times they appear very wounded or generous, and the whole intention is to now just disarm you. Bottom line is a lot of narcissists, they're gonna wear different masks, but at the core, they're all the same.
Laura Dugger: (16:41 - 18:35) And now a brief message from our sponsor.
With over 1,700 apartment units available throughout Pekin, Peoria, Peoria Heights, Morton, and Washington, and with every price range covered, you will have plenty of options when you rent through Leman Property Management Company. They have townhomes, duplexes, studios, and garden style options located in many areas throughout Pekin. And make sure you check out their newest offering; the McKinley located in Pekin is a new construction addition to their platinum collection. Featuring nine-foot ceilings, large spacious layouts, beautiful finishes such as quartz countertops and garages, you won't want to miss this outstanding new property.
In Peoria, a historic downtown location and apartments adjacent to OSF Medical Center provide excellent choices. Check out their brand-new luxury property in Peoria Heights, overlooking the boutique shops and fine dining on Prospect. And in Morton, they offer a variety of apartment homes with garages, a hot downtown location, and now a brand-new high-end complex near Idlewood Park. If you want to become part of their team, contact them about open office positions. They're also hiring in their maintenance department. So, we invite you to find out why so many people have chosen to make a career with them. Check them out on Facebook today or email their friendly staff at leasing@lemanprops.com. You can also stop by their website at lemanproperties.com. Check them out and find your place to call home today.
Do narcissists recognize or ever admit to being narcissists? Can they ever see that in themselves?
Kris Reece: (18:36 - 20:20) That's a great question. And that's actually two-sided. So, the one where I would say no, they don't see that in themselves. They see themselves truly as entitled, as somebody who's been given the short straw, somebody who is owed something, the victim. They honestly don't see themselves as narcissistic.
Then there's another side where they sort of see it and they actually will use that now to their advantage. See, this makes me somebody who is self-reflective. This is somebody who is, I'm willing to recognize where I've gone wrong. But the problem is, there's no depth there. You'll get generalities like, oh, I know I'm not perfect, but, and then you'll get a litany of justifications or you'll, I know I'm not perfect, but all of your sins are now laid out in detail. So, they will, if they do recognize it, they will use it to their advantage.
Now there is that final subset that does start to recognize and they see, I don't want to be this way. Wow, I've caused a lot of destruction to relationships. I do want to change. And that road is really long, really long. But I'm not, I'm not of the camp that believes that narcissists don't change. They can, if they want to. It takes a lot to recognize it. And I've seen some do.
Laura Dugger: (20:22 - 21:11) I appreciate that hope. You don't always hear that very often with this type of personality. But I think one more piece that has always been so confusing to me when loved ones have shared that they're in a relationship with someone who is a narcissist, whether that's their spouse or their parent is where I've been in friendship with people before. But they, all of their stories, no matter where they live in the world, the narcissist seems to struggle with the same things. They seem to act the same way. They're master manipulators. And I just don't understand how they all have the same playbook. And like you say, they lie even when they don't have to. So, as you've thought about this, are there any reasons why it's so similar across the board?
Kris Reece: (21:14 - 23:27) Yes, because by nature, they are, they're lazy. They don't want to put in an effort. And they're also, what word would I use to describe this? It's almost like they're aliens to empathy. So, if you could imagine an alien coming from, I don't believe in aliens, so please don't hear what I'm not saying, but let's just imagine for a moment, you know, they come on this earth and they're like, oh, I got to adapt myself to these people. I got to fit in. What do I do? So, they're going to start listening. They're going to start mimicking behaviors and they're going to start testing to see what works and what doesn't work. So, for them, now we go back to that whole childhood thing. If they've learned that the only way to get what I want is to lie, the only way to get people to see me as XYZ is to manipulate, that's what they're going to do. And they're going to do it by default.
And that's what people don't understand is that default mechanisms are so powerful that even a master manipulator could turn around and say, “you know, I really, I recognize, yeah, I do manipulate a little bit.” And then when push comes to shove, if they have not done the hard work to begin to dig and really understand where it came from, why it's there and start to develop the patterns to override it, they're going to default to the same way every single time.
And that's why they lie so easily. It's just a default. Now, I'm not saying that as an excuse, but it's a default. And what they also don't realize is that this is not just psychological. This is spiritual. Narcissism is fueled by pride, deception, and control. Is that describing anybody we know? That's the enemy to the core. So, it's not that they're all just studying the same playbook. It is that they're all influenced by the same spirit. And that's what we're struggling with.
Laura Dugger: (23:29 - 24:00) Wow. And that really, there was an aha moment, and I wrote this down, kind of what you're saying. But on page 133, you said, “it's like they're demonically inspired or at the very least, influenced.” And I think that makes so much sense. Even the insidious ways that they are cunning or crafty, that they're influenced by our enemy. That makes a lot more sense. Anything else that you would want to add to that?
Kris Reece: (24:02 - 25:36) Yes. When we look at, I hate to, I don't like to label people. But when we look at how the enemy operates, let's look at how Satan operates. Kill, steal, destroy. Control, pride, deception, manipulation. If he is now influencing these people and they are not putting up any of the barriers, they're continuing to give him a foothold. They are now walking in his purpose. So, if Satan is looking to do this to you, why wouldn't his ambassadors? They are highly influenced by his behaviors, and they don't even realize it. So, yes, we can have compassion. We can take this to prayer because any stronghold can be broken. But that's got to be done by the power of Christ.
So, we pray for their eyes to be open. We pray for them to see the wickedness of their ways and give them a desire to turn from it. But you're not going to change that. It's not going to happen, especially when it is so deeply spiritually rooted. Because a lot of times we get caught in the, well, I'm a good person. Well, I would never behave that way. If I knew I was doing that, I'd want to change. So, we think that our explanation alone is really just going to be the aha moment for the narcissist, right? So, we explain, we re-explain, we over-explain. And then what we don't realize is that now we just got caught in that trap as well. We're now playing that game on their turf and we're not going to win. We have got to hand over this spiritual battle to the Lord.
Laura Dugger: (25:37 - 25:54) Okay, so then that makes me wonder, you said that there is hope. So, how is this treatable? You've kind of let us in on a little bit of it, but also can you just share if you have ever seen someone repent or change their ways?
Kris Reece: (25:56 - 28:30) Yes, more than one. I've seen it on more than one occasion. It is a journey. It does not come from you just over loving them and just giving them passes and excuses and being more like Christ. It's usually from what I refer to as a two-by-four moment.
When God just clunks them over the head, everything is lost, everything is gone, and everything that they held so dearly, meaning everything that was holding them up. So, if you can think about narcissists, they can't function on their own. They don't have their own self-identity. They don't have their own self-discipline. They don't have any other self-regulation. They have no sense of self. So, everything is external. So, when God is looking to change somebody, guess what's going to happen? He's going to start kicking out those crutches one by one, and then they're going to get the two-by-four moment, which is that knock over the head, like that road to Damascus experience that Paul went through. It's like, hello, are we going to wake up here?
And that is when they start to have their awakening, and that is when they begin to pursue, hey, I think change might be possible. This is what happens to me. And then in that environment, if they're able to get met with then the love and the compassion, again, not the enabling, then you'll start to see that change begin to unfold. Narcissism is treatable, but not in the way people often imagine. It's not this surface-level behavioral issue. It's not getting somebody to say, I'm sorry, or getting somebody to validate you. It is a deep identity and a heart issue that is rooted in pride. And I don't know about you, there is not enough experience on the planet. I could never take somebody through that. That has got to be a God moment.
And that's where I want to just caution people sometimes, especially if we struggle with codependency, thinking that we are now responsible for these people, that maybe God planted me in their lives for such a time as this. Stop, stop, stop. Guard your heart. Allow God to heal you of what's driving you now to want to fix this person. And truly, truly, if you really love this person, pray for them, go into warfare for them, but hand them over to the Lord.
Laura Dugger: (28:32 - 28:48) Okay, so then another spiritual question, Kris, in your opinion, can someone be a Christian, a true born-again believer, and a narcissist? Ah, I love and I hate this question.
Kris Reece: (28:52 - 32:44) Hilary, you're going to love and hate my answer. Yes and no. So, in one sense, yes. In the sense that somebody can actually profess faith and faith in Christ but still live in a way that looks absolutely nothing like him. And we see this all throughout scripture. But claiming Christ and following Christ are not the same thing. And that's where I believe that there are times where it's no. You know, just because you had an altar moment where some way, somehow your belly was full, you were well rested, the music was just right, and you came to this place of, okay, I'm going to give my life to Christ at the altar, but you continued in your iniquity for the next 30 years. I really have to seriously question your salvation. But it's not my job to question someone's salvation. But I can question your walk. If I'm not seeing the fruit of that walk, I don't know that I can call you a brother or a sister. If you continue to walk in that route of pride and self-exaltation and manipulation, it's not of God. So, there's a difference between a Christian who's struggling and a Christian who's just refusing to admit any of the error of their ways. One of the questions that we really have to ask is, can a narcissist be saved? And the answer to that is absolutely. Jesus came for the broken, the blind, the hard-hearted, every single last one of them. But that transformation is going to require repentance.
So, yes, I think our hope always needs to be in, Lord, you can save them. If you saved a wretch like me, you could save them. So, now what happens is our prayer needs to now shift. Lord, give them a heart of repentance, a willingness to see themselves truthfully and surrender to your work. That's where our prayer now needs to shift. Not, Lord, get them to stop doing this, get them to stop doing that, get them out of here, move them on. Because if it is God's heart that none should perish, it should be our heart that none should perish. But all should come to repentance. So, that's where our prayer needs to be. So, yes, while there is hope, we're not mini-Jesuses. It's not going to happen. It's not our responsibility. Sometimes our responsibility is actually to step out of the way and allow them to suffer their own consequences, because that is what starts to bring a narcissist to themselves. Not always, but oftentimes. You know what it's reminding me of is the scripture in 1st or 2nd Corinthians, I can't remember, is when Paul commanded the young man who was sleeping with his stepmother to be cast out of the church, get rid of him, to send him out. And here's what he said, “Give him over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh.” So, it wasn't like, get rid of him. He's a piece of dirt. We don't want anything to do with him anymore. It's like, okay, if that's the lifestyle he wants to live, then let him live it. And let Satan have his way. So, his flesh is now destroyed. Not him as a person, but his flesh is destroyed. And that's really what narcissists are. They're very fleshly people. I want what I want when I want it, and I'm going to do whatever I can to get it. So, we really want to change our prayer to the Lord, lead them to repentance.
Laura Dugger: (32:49 - 34:01) Updated website, thesavvysauce.com, so that you can have access to all the additional freebies we are offering, including all of our previous articles and all of our previous episodes, which now include transcriptions. You will be equipped to have your own practical chats for intentional living when you read all the recommended questions in the articles or gain insight from expert guests and past episodes as you read through the transcriptions. Because many people have shared with us that they want to take notes on previous episodes, or maybe their spouse prefers to read our conversations rather than listen to them or watch them now that we're offering video rather than just audio. So, we heard all of that, and we now have provided transcripts for all our episodes. Just visit thesavvysauce.com. All of this is conveniently located under the tab show notes on our website. Happy reading.
Will you also share a few of the toxic tactics that narcissists typically use for power and control in relationships?
Kris Reece: (34:02 - 36:33) Yes, actually one of their favorite ones is gaslighting. And I think it's just a word that is so overused and abused, but it is so accurate because it's not just lying, it is denying, it is distorting, and it is rewriting reality with the intention to make you doubt yourself, your memory, your feelings, or even your sanity. Tell me that's not wicked. I don't know what it is. It's manipulation at its finest. And the same with love bombing, which is another one of their tactics. At the start, or not even just at the start, maybe when they recognize that you've had enough, like that's it, I'm putting my foot down, I'm setting boundaries, sometimes they'll come in with that love bombing. And what they do is they start to overwhelm you with the affection and the attention and the promises and the chores and all those things that you've been just fighting for all those years. What they're looking to do is to recreate or recreate that emotional dependency, because it's not about love to them, it's about bait. So, in their mind, they're not going, oh no, I'm losing this relationship. Let me get my act together. It's, oh no, I'm losing control. Let me get him or her back into my clutches. So, those are two of the very common ones.
Another one is projection. You want to know what a narcissist is doing? Listen to what they're accusing you of. That will tell you clearly what they've got going on. Lying, selfishness, anger, cheating, hiding, whatever it is, they want to put you on the defensive instead of facing their truth. So, what it does is it puts the spotlight on you and keeps it off them. So, those are some of the most common tactics that they're going to use. And it's on a spectrum. They will do it to different degrees. They'll do it in different ways to different relationships. But they're always going to do what has worked in the past. So, again, once your eyes start to open, now it becomes more difficult. And now their tactics start to change just a little bit. Remember, they're the alien. They're here. They've now got to figure this out. They're like, oh, this isn't working anymore. So, they're going to try to figure out what does work. And that's where you need to be very careful. Know them by their fruit. Fruit takes time to develop.
Laura Dugger: (36:35 - 36:45) Okay. Even that term gaslighting, I think it can be hard to understand. Can you give an example of what that would look like in a relationship?
Kris Reece: (36:46 - 37:50) Yeah, absolutely. So, you can go to, let's say, your spouse and you tell them, you know, when you said this to me, it really hurt my feelings. An obvious form of gaslighting could be, I never said that. You're misunderstanding me. Now, a lot of times people become savvy enough to have proof. No, no, no. You did say that. See, it's right here. Well, that's not what I meant. And you should know that. If you were a good Christian, you would know that that's not what I meant. You know that I get a little confused. You know that I mix up my words.
And what they're doing is they're trying to distort your feelings instead of just owning. Wow. I didn't intend to make you feel that way, but I could see that it left an impact on you. They will skirt around all of that. They will make you question yourself. They will even deny, they will flat out deny that they said or did anything.
Laura Dugger: (37:52 - 38:26) And I see where this gets so confusing for the person in relationship with them, because there's extra layers that you talk about and even extra tactics, like pathological lying that are added in there too. Yep. But they will flat out deny it. Yeah. Well, there's also a few more terms that I'd love for you to explain, just because they may come up throughout our conversation this week and next week. So, will you define codependency for us and also reactive abuse and trauma bond?
Kris Reece: (38:27 - 43:41) Oh, absolutely. These are all very powerful and they are issues that can leave. I hate to use the word victim because we may be victimized, but if you're in Christ, you are not a victim. You have a hope and a future. God can meet you and do exceedingly abundantly above what you could ask, hope or think. But codependency, reactive abuse and trauma bonds are all very real and they often travel together. But they're different pieces of the same trap.
So, when we look at codependency, this is where your sense of worth or peace now depends on someone else's mood or approval. It's like saying, if you're okay, I'm okay. If you're not okay, I'm not okay. So, I need you to be okay. Okay. And you start to manage other people's emotions instead of your own. And that's when we start to confuse enabling with loving because at the core of it, we want to feel okay and they're not okay. So, we have to get them okay. And that's where that caring now turns into control.
So, now we get into reactive abuse. This is often very misunderstood because this happens a lot in churches. So, I want you to picture this. You have a married couple. Let's just say he is for the, just for the sake of our conversation. There are, there are a lot of female narcissists out there, but let's just say the male is the narcissist and he is gaslighting and he is abusive at home, but it's borderline. It's like, you know, he's a little insulting. He's a bit harsh. He's not loving. He's not nurturing. But boy, when he's at church, oh, he's everybody's pal. He's serving all the time. So, now when they go to counseling, they're sitting in front of the pastor, and she's got years and years and years of this abuse that has taken place. And she's now reacting to it. She's elevated. She's yelling, she's screaming, she's crying. And guess what happens? He's sitting there cool as a cucumber. I really don't understand. I mean, I know I've not been perfect and that's where the reactive abuse is taking place because she's now reacting to all of those years of manipulation and provocation and now questioning her own sanity because she knows what's going on. So, she's got that, what we refer to as cognitive dissonance going on.
She's like, well, wait a minute, he's done this, saying this, this isn't making sense. I know I'm not losing it, but I feel like I'm losing it. And that's what's taking place. So, she just explodes because she has no idea what's going on. Her sanity is in question right now. So, to that pastor, guess who looks like the problem? She does. So, if you would just react a little bit more gently when he brings something to you, you may not have this problem. And if she's a Christian, she's going to go back and recognize the error of her ways, which that is a problem. You know, we are responsible for how we react, but she's owning now all of it. So, now let's take a step back.
What is reactive abuse? It happens when you finally explode after those long periods of manipulation and provocation. The abuser then points to your reaction as the proof that you are the problem. And that keeps the guilt train going.
The trauma bond is what happens with trauma bonds is they form when your brain gets hooked on the cycles of fear and relief. And we also go back to that cognitive dissonance. We're like, oh, wait a minute. Okay, he's this way one minute and he's this way another minute. So, is he good? Is he bad? I don't, I don't, instead of the brain being able to say, he's both, you've got both of this going on and we need to deal with this. We're trying to put either a bad blanket on it or a good blanket on it. So, we get hooked in these cycles in the relationship. And what we're chasing is that constant good time. Maybe we had a great time at the gala and he was so wonderful. He was even kind to me after we got in the car, and those small moments of kindness start to release the dopamine, and they convince you to stay even though the big picture is you're being hurt long term.
It's like the frog in the boiling pot. They don't even realize it. But the good news, codependency, reactive abuse, and trauma bonds, once you recognize these patterns, you can begin to renew your mind, break the cycle and allow the Holy Spirit to retrain your heart towards peace instead of that counterfeit connection.
Laura Dugger: (43:43 - 44:06) Wow. That is so well summed up. And if somebody is recognizing that they're in that cycle or if they're identifying they're in a relationship with a narcissist, do you have a practical first step as we're starting to wind down our time together today? Anything that they could do before they tune in next week?
Kris Reece: (44:07 - 45:13) Absolutely. So, the first thing you're going to want to do is to release these feelings of shame and bringing this before God. Your time right now with the Lord can be precious and incredibly restorative. My hope would be that we take our focus off of them. Yes, I get it. We're starting to identify. We're recognizing. And all that can be very enlightening. But be careful not to fall into the enemy's trap of now overanalyzing, over fixing, over controlling.
Take this before the Lord and say, “God, what are you trying to do in me?” Because for whatever reason, He's allowed this relationship. For whatever reason, He's not allowing you out of it. There's a lot of work that He's going to want to begin to do in you. And this is not to say this is your responsibility, but I promise you at the end of this road, if you walk this with Him, there will be a life that is beyond your imagination. Whether it's in the relationship or not, I'm not sure, but it will be beyond your imagination.
Laura Dugger: (45:15 - 45:24) Thank you again for sharing the hope, Kris. And where can we go in between these weeks if we want to continue learning more from you?
Kris Reece: (45:25 - 45:43) Oh, that'd be great. I would love if you'd jump on over to my website. It's krisreece.com. That's Kris with a K, Reece with a C. And you're going to find a wealth of content and resources, some of them free resources. And it's also where you can find my new book. It's called Breaking the Narcissist's Grip. Or you can just jump on Amazon for that as well.
Laura Dugger: (45:44 - 46:01) Wonderful. We'll add links for all of that in the show notes for today's episode. And you're familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge.
And so, as my final question for you today, Kris, what is your savvy sauce?
Kris Reece: (46:02 - 47:06) My savvy sauce is going to be very practical. I'm a really practical gal. And this may sound like a cliche, so I want you to kind of stick with me a little bit, but it has changed my life. And that is practicing the pause. In these difficult relationships, whether you were reactive before or not, you are now. And we want to begin to practice that pause because toxic people really want to dictate the emotional temperature of the conversation.
So, before you respond, before you react, before you decide anything, just one pause. And you got to ask yourself this one question. This is what I do. I say, is this led by peace or pressure? And that question has saved me from countless toxic conversations and impulsive decisions. So, before you respond, pause, because peace is always going to tell you the truth faster than pressure ever will.
Laura Dugger: (47:08 - 47:37) Well, so well said. I love that. And you are, I'm just so grateful that you were called to this work and that you did surrender to the Lord. Here I am. Send me with your book and the way that you're communicating today and all of these resources that you put together. I think a lot of people are going to find healing and hope. And that's my prayer as we conclude our time together. But I'm just very grateful for you, Kris. So, thank you for being my guest.
Kris Reece: (47:37 - 47:41) Thank you. Thank you. It's been such a blessing and an honor. I am so appreciative.
Laura Dugger: (47:43 - 51:25) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.
This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.
Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.
Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.
First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.
You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Mar 23, 2026
Monday Mar 23, 2026
Leading in Parenting: Special Patreon Release with Arlene Pellicane
Titus 3:1 (AMP) “Remind people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready and willing to do good,"
*Transcription Below*
Arlene Pellicane is a speaker and author of several books including Parents Rising, 31 Days to a Happy Husband and Calm, Cool, and Connected: 5 Digital Habits for a More Balanced Life. She is also the co-author of Growing Up Social: Raising Relational Kids in a Screen-Driven World (with Dr. Gary Chapman).
Arlene has been a featured guest on the Today Show, Fox & Friends, Focus on the Family, FamilyLife Today, The 700 Club, and Turning Point with Dr. David Jeremiah. She writes regularly for Proverbs 31 Ministries and Girlfriends in God. Arlene earned her BA from Biola University and her Masters in Journalism from Regent University. Arlene lives in San Diego with her husband James and their three children Ethan, Noelle, and Lucy. To learn more, visit www.ArlenePellicane.com
Books by Arlene Pellicane:
31 Days to Becoming a Happy Wife
31 Days to Becoming a Happy Mom
Calm, Cool, and Connected: 5 Digital Habits for a More Balanced Life
Growing up Social by Dr. Gary Chapman and Arlene Pellicane
Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and Cultivate What Matters
Just for Fun and Highly Recommended by Laura
Lara Casey's 2020 6-months Powersheets...Not exaggerating: these are changing my life!!!
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
*Transcription*
Music: (0:00 – 0:08)
Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 1:53) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
I want to say a huge thank you to today's sponsors for this episode, Chick-fil-A East Peoria and Savvy Sauce Charities.
Are you interested in a free college education for you or someone you know? Stay tuned for details coming later in this episode from today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. You can also visit their website today at Chick-fil-A.com forward slash East Peoria.
If you've been with us long, you know this podcast is only one piece of our nonprofit, which is the Savvy Sauce Charities. Don't miss out on our other resources. We have questions and content to inspire you to have your own practical chats for intentional living. And I also hope you don't miss out on the opportunity to financially support us through your tax-deductible donations. All this information can be found on our recently updated website, thesavvysauce.com.
I'm thrilled to welcome back author and speaker Arlene Pellicane. In her warm and welcoming way, she's going to share about parenting from a biblical perspective and give us practical steps to take to ensure as parents, we are leaders of the home and not followers of our children.
Here's our chat.
Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Arlene.
Arlene Pellicane: (1:54 - 1:55) It's great to be with you again. How fun.
Laura Dugger: (1:55 - 2:02) Well, in case our friends listening didn't hear your first episode, can you just catch us up on who you are and what you do?
Arlene Pellicane: (2:03 - 2:30) Sure. We talked about growing up social, raising relational kids in a screen-driven world. So, I just try to help families get a hold of that technology, so it doesn't take over your house. And so, I speak and write books. My books include 31 Days to a Happy Husband, Growing Up Social, and 31 Days to Becoming a Happy Mom. I have three kids. My husband, James, and I have been married for 21 years. And our kids are now in high school, junior high, and elementary school. And they go boy, girl, girl.
Laura Dugger: (2:31 - 2:39) And let's even go one step further and go back a little bit in your history. What type of home were you raised in?
Arlene Pellicane: (2:41 - 3:25) I am an only child. So, my husband would say he's the last of four that I was raised in a very spoiled home. That's what he would say. So, I was the only child. I had cousins who lived in the same neighborhood. So that was really nice. So I never felt lonely. And apparently I didn't ask my parents for a sibling. So, they were like, okay, we're happy with one. We'll just keep it this way. And so, I had cousins that were very close in age to me in the neighborhood that I played with. And so, I had a very happy childhood and a good childhood. I will say my sweet mom, she's so funny. She's super social. She just loves people. So, I was always the kid that was waiting on the curb like, please, mom, come pick me up. Because she was probably talking to someone and couldn't get me soon enough.
Laura Dugger: (3:26 - 3:34) That's amazing. Have you carried on that style now that you're raising your own family? Or have you chosen to do some things differently?
Arlene Pellicane: (3:34 - 4:50) I think a lot of the ways I parent are very much like how my mom and dad were. My mom and dad were very open, very relational, talking, hugging, and involved in what I did. I was a cheerleader. And if I came home, she'd be awake with hot chocolate at midnight after a game. Or something like that. So, I think that idea of being relational. And there were rules and there were boundaries. But it was a very relational home. I think we definitely have that. And my home was very joyful. And we try to make our home very joyful. So probably the most distinctive difference is the way we handle chores and just being tougher. My mom and dad and I were caterers. Like, oh, if you need something, we'll do that for you. Where my husband is like, uh-uh. You can do that yourself. And I think that's good. Because the first time I did laundry was in college. I mean, that's pretty late. I remember being in college and thinking, what in the world do I do with this quarter and this laundry? I have no idea. And so, my husband has helped us to instill that the kids, you know, as soon as, like, my youngest is in fifth grade. But even by second or third grade, she was doing her own laundry. So, I think that's good. My husband has helped us to see that learning how to do chores at a young age is a positive thing.
Laura Dugger: (4:50 - 5:14) I think it's just so interesting to hear because we all have a different approach. So I love hearing both of those stories. And now you're also a working mom. And I know that some of our listeners have mentioned how grateful they are to hear from fellow Christians who have chosen to work while also raising their children. So, has this been natural for you or was it a struggle at times?
Arlene Pellicane: (5:15 - 6:18) Yeah. And I have to say, you know, I am a working mom with a lot of flexibility because I speak and I write. But my schedule is at home, and I am my own boss. So, I can say to myself, oh, let's go to the field trip. You know, I can do those kinds of things where I know many moms who are working these overnight shifts and they are crazy busy. And so, in that sense, I feel like if I say, oh, it's been easy, you know, it's been OK, that's kind of why. Because I haven't been forced to do these crazy hours. So, if you are listening right now and you're like, I am so sleepy because I've been working so hard, my heart goes goes to you. So, this has been a wonderful mix just for me personally, because I have the flexibility to be available for my kids. But it gives me a purpose that's outside of my children that I really enjoy. And it's kind of cool because since I write about marriage and the family and parenting, it keeps me in my space. So, I'm kind of constantly getting to have stories for my own work. So it's it's been quite ideal. I love it.
Laura Dugger: (6:19 - 6:26) So is there any scripture or clarity from the Lord that helped affirm you in both of those roles?
Arlene Pellicane: (6:27 - 7:36) Yeah, you know, I think of Proverbs three of trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not on your own understanding. And so, as we're trusting in God, not leaning on our understanding and we're seeing like he will make your path straight. And so, I have seen that over and over and over again to simply trust. And it really is, you know, for me, it's being a speaker and an author. And I know some of you who are listening, that's something that you desire to do. But whether it's that or something else, you know, we live in a culture where you're supposed to be a celebrity, like you're supposed to amass numbers and have platforms and do all these things. And I think when you get to the point where it's like, you know, I want influence, I want impact, I want to help people. But I don't care if I help them with two followers or with 16, you know what I mean? Like not being into all those kinds of things. And I think when we turn our hearts to saying with our work, God, let your will be done in this. God be magnified in this Lord, just whatever I can do, multiply it. God will do that and be obedient that that's what's most important, not necessarily the Instagram followers, etc. So set your heart on God and the other things will fall into place.
Laura Dugger: (7:36 - 7:46) And like you said, in your work, you do write about family and parenting. So how can parents lead the home rather than children?
Arlene Pellicane: (7:47 - 10:36) This is so important, right? And it used to be that the home of yesterday might have been like, children are seen but not heard. But today it's backward. It's like parents are seen but not heard. It's like people talking are the children. And so, watch your language. You know, how do you talk to your children? Do you talk in a way that is like a leader or are you asking them questions all the time? So, I notice this about myself. So, for instance, that after you say something, you would say, okay, like, it's time to go come to dinner. Okay. Like it's a question, right? Not an instruction. Or why don't you wear this shirt? Okay. So, we, especially as moms, do this all the time. And if we don't tack the word, okay, on our voices still go up. Like we'll say, why don't you pick that one? Isn't that a good idea? Like we're constantly like our voices go up in the question. So, part of leadership is even just listening to yourself. How am I communicating? And I love what John Roseman, the psychologist says is communicate your instruction using the least amount of words possible. So, it's go to the car.
That's a leader, right? You're just telling your child, go to the car. But we say, okay, it's time to go to grandma's house. And you know, we don't want to be late. So, let's start zipping up your jacket and let's go. Okay, it's time to go. Are you not ready to go? Get your shoes on. Okay, you got your shoes. That's so good. You got your shoes. Get in the car. Right? So, it's like all we need to say was get in the car. So, I love that. So just even assess how do you communicate to your children? Because your children are hearing all these things. And so, they just hear like this lovely paragraph. They missed go to the car. So, assess how you talk. Use fewer words. Don't make everything a question. And all of this, of course, stems from the idea, the realization that, wait a minute, I'm the leader in the home, not my child. So many people will say, well, my child won't let me do that. Right? Like we ride bikes in our neighborhood. And my son, when he was in second grade, had a really bad accident involving him and a truck. And went to the hospital and was fine because of the grace of God and because he was wearing a helmet. And so, we'll see kids in the neighborhood without helmets. And my husband said to the dad, “You know, just last week, my son was hit by a car on this very street. It's really important that your kids wear a helmet. And the father said, oh, I just can't get my kids to do it. So, this is the problem of, wait, who is the leader here? Is the child the leader or is the parent the leader? So, you've got to see, first of all, in scripture, it is children obey your parents and not the other way around. So, we've got to just embrace that with all of our heart.
Laura Dugger: (10:37 - 11:06) That's amazing to even hear you say that, because this morning this verse just jumped off the page at me. And it's in Titus 3, verse 1. And I'm reading out of the Amplified Version. And it says, remind people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready and willing to do good. That just struck me for parenting. Like you're saying, it is biblical and it's important for us to lead.
Arlene Pellicane: (11:07 - 11:49) And wow, if your kids cannot learn from you, right, if in their own home they don't have that sense of, oh, there's this healthy authority over me and I do what they say. Like if they don't have that, then look at them as they grow up. They're going to have trouble with their relationship with God. It's like, oh, God commands us to do a lot of things. And like Mary, we could say, let it be to me according to your word. I am your servant. Or like the modern person, we could be like, no way. Who are you to tell me what to do, right? So that authority, if they can get that from you as a parent, that's going to help them with their spouse, with their employer, with a police officer, with a teacher, with God. It just helps them in all those relationships.
Laura Dugger: (11:50 - 12:03) And I'm so grateful for people like you who are writing parenting books. And so, I want to know, how did you arrive at your eight strategies in one of your recent books titled Parents Rising?
Arlene Pellicane: (12:04 - 12:59) Yeah, a lot of it was what I was observing. Like what was I seeing with my children, with their friends in the elementary school, et cetera, our pediatrician and talking to other doctors, asking them like, what are you seeing? Because something my pediatrician said really struck me. She's like, Arlene, a lot of times I'm not talking about physical things anymore. Like this is a pediatrician, right? It's not so much about shots and growth and all this. It's how can I manage my child? They're so emotional. They're under distress. They have anxiety. They're on video games all the time. So just listening to what she was saying of what are parents coming to her and saying, this is my problem, you know, and she's been a pediatrician for 25 years and has talked about, wow, in the last 10 years, all these problems because of technology, they're just enormous. So, listening to people's input led to these eight strategies.
Laura Dugger: (13:01 - 13:07) And you don't have to go through all of them, but could you at least touch on a few of these strategies and elaborate?
Arlene Pellicane: (13:07 - 16:59) Sure. You know, you can listen to our Growing Up Social one that we did to talk about this first strategy, which is amusement is not the highest priority. But what I'll say about that is as parents, you are not the cruise director. It is not your job to make everything fun from A to Z. Now you can do that on occasion. That's good. You want to have fun. So don't get me wrong. Have fun. But you're more like a trainer, a coach. And so, a lot of times we'll just give all the technology so our kids can be amused, but your kids don't need amusement. They need character. So, they need to be building character in your home. So put amusement in its proper place so character can take shape. And that's going to be your first strategy. But I'll say a few things about strategy number four, which is the Bible and prayer are present daily. And it's just the idea that when kids see that you have a real faith, that it's not like, oh, I go to church on Sunday, but then every other day of the week I kind of look like any other home in this neighborhood. You know, like we watch the same things as our secular neighbor does. We cuss sometimes. We spend our money on stuff we don't really tithe. And again, not a guilt trip, but I'm just saying when kids see that, oh, this doesn't make this huge difference in your life. Then when they're older, it's much easier for them to stray away from that faith because it's not strongly in them. But when they see like, oh, my mom and dad, they're not perfect, but they seek God. And when they make a mistake, they ask for forgiveness of me. And when I see them get money, they give it to the missionary. And when we have extra time, we try to serve other people or invite people to church. So those kinds of things. So not just like, oh, we attend church and we're good people. But when kids see, oh, my mom's faith is real. My dad's faith is real. That's going to make an impact on them. And that's going to help them to make that decision for themselves. So, make sure that that's something that's daily. And then for prayer, I will be the first to say, I want this amazing prayer life. But just like anyone else, I can go to bed and say, oh, my word, I didn't even pray today. So, one thing that's really helped me is Moms in Prayer. And that is an international organization. And the total mission is two praying moms for every school. So that there would be two moms that would gather. And obviously there can be more to pray for their children by name and to pray for their school by name. And I started joining one of these when my son Ethan was in first grade. And now he is in 10th. And I can see such a huge difference in how God has moved in my children, in their friendships, in their school. Because every week while school's in session, I am praying with another woman for my kids by name. Like it is amazing. And I remember the very first week I did this, I joined a church group that had like one lady had college age kids. And one lady had grandkids. So, it was a really diverse group. I had the youngest kids. And we prayed. And we prayed that my son would make a Christian friend. Because we're a public school. And the very next day my son Ethan said, Mom, I was in the playground, and I heard a boy singing. And Mom, he's a Christian. And Mom, he's in my class. And I was like, Ethan, I just prayed with the moms just yesterday that you would find a Christian friend. And it's amazing. That was first grade. And just about a month ago we had that same boy over for breakfast. And I told him that story. And it was so funny. Like see how God works. So, he and my son are not close friends. They have become acquaintances over the years. But we were able to have him over. And to be able to say that story, like you can see the boys lit up like, wow, this prayer thing really works. And so, if your kids can see that the Bible and prayer is part of your normal rhythm, that you care about it, that's going to make a huge difference in their spiritual lives.
Laura Dugger: (17:00 - 22:33) I would echo all of that. I think that life with Jesus is the most exciting type of life. And that's so great to hear how you incorporated it with your kids and let them in on that process.
And now a brief message from our sponsor. Did you know you can go to college tuition free just by being a team member at Chick-fil-A East Peoria? Yes, you heard that right. Free college education. All Chick-fil-A East Peoria team members in good standing are immediately eligible for a free college education through Point University. Point University is a fully accredited private Christian college located in West Point, Georgia. This online self-paced program includes 13 associates degrees, 17 bachelor's degrees, and two master's programs, including an MBA. College courses are fully transferable both in and out of this program. This could even be a great option to complete your general education courses and then transfer to the college of your choice and save money in the process. So, if you're looking for an affordable college option while simultaneously gaining valuable work experience and earning an income, Chick-fil-A East Peoria is the place for you. You don't have to go into debt to get a great education. To apply today, please go to Chick-fil-A.com forward slash East Peoria and click on the career tab. You can also call the restaurant at 309-694-1044 to find out more. And if you aren't located near Chick-fil-A East Peoria, make sure you check with your local Chick-fil-A restaurant to see if they also participate in the Elevate program with Point University. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Are you utilizing Savvy Sauce Charities to full capacity? Other than our Special Patreon Release episodes, our content is now available in video form in addition to our audio only, and we have written transcriptions for every episode. Visit our website today, thesavvysauce.com, to access all these forms of interviews. And while you're there, make sure you sign up for our e-mail list to receive encouragement, questions, and recommended resources about once a month to promote your own practical chats for intentional living. I also want to remind you about the financial side of Savvy Sauce Charities. As you know, we recently became a nonprofit, which means all your financial support is now tax deductible. There are multiple ways to give, and we would be so honored if you would share your financial support with us so that we can continue producing free content that is accessible to the general public. Your money will go to support creatively getting the gospel message of Jesus Christ to the nations as we continue to share the good news on every episode. And I say this is reaching the nations because The Savvy Sauce podcast is downloaded in all 50 United States as well as over 100 countries around the world. Your financial support also supports practical needs, such as aiding our team to continue producing helpful content that is practical and uplifting and always pointing to Jesus. Your financial support, furthermore, will help us continue to expand our reach and secure future projects we have planned for this ministry. If your ears are hearing this message right now, I am specifically asking you to give. We are so grateful for any amount, and our team will continue to seek to be good stewards of the gifts offered to us. So, if you want to write a check or set up an ongoing payment with your bank that delivers a check to us each month, this is the most beneficial way to give because no percentages are taken out for processing fees. You can make your checkout to Savvy Sauce Charities at P.O. Box 101, Roanoke, Illinois, 61561. Additionally, with our new website, we now have a donate button. There are processing fees that we cover for these donations, but we wanted to offer listeners a seamless way to share their finances with us when we share our content with them. So just visit thesavvysauce.com and find the donate page under the tab support. Another way to find it is simply type in donate to the search bar on our website and just click the first picture shown. We are all about sharing around here, sharing resources, sharing joy, and sharing the good news about Jesus Christ. We ask that you also will share by sharing financially, sharing The Savvy Sauce podcast episodes, and sharing a five-star rating and review. You can also share any of our social media posts on Instagram or Facebook. We are grateful for all of it, and we just love partnering together with you.
Now, back to the show.
Arlene Pellicane: (22:34 - 24:31) Another strategy number seven is love is spelled T-I-M-E, love is spelled time. It's that idea that yes, you can have quality time, but if you are not together all week and you have a half an hour of quality time only, that's not enough. You need to work on the quantity time as well. And again, one of the huge stealers is being on your phone, whether it's us, whether it's our kids. They did a survey of 6,000 kids all around the world and asked what's your parent's worst habit and 50% of them said my parent is on the phone and 34% of those people said and when we're talking in conversation, my parent will interrupt, like they will take a text while we're talking and that really bothers me. So, this idea of love is spelled T-I-M-E with time, just remember that when you're with your child, you need to have moments where there are no devices present. This doesn't mean that from the moment your child gets home from school to the moment they go to bed, you need to be staring at them and doing something. No, that's not practical. Like you have to make dinner. You have to pay your bills. We get that. But in the time in between those things, make sure there's time where maybe you're reading together. We just recently got a pool table, so we're playing pool together now. So have things in place, whether it's a frisbee or a ball, a chess game, a puzzle, where there is time that it's a regular rhythm to connect with your child, spend time together and it doesn't have to be this serious chat. You know, boys don't want to sit across the table with their mothers and have a serious chat, but a boy will play Nerf Gun Wars with you. So, like have activities so you're spending time together because in that shared activity, that's when there's an opportunity for that child to tell you something that maybe is on their heart, it's on their mind, because now there's a space to tell you. So, make sure that you are spending time with your kids.
Laura Dugger: (24:32 - 24:38) Wow. Is there anything else that we haven't covered yet in our time together that you want to make sure we hear?
Arlene Pellicane: (24:38 - 26:42) There are two thoughts I have. One is when you're spending that time together, research has shown that even having a phone present, so you're not touching it, it's just on the table. Like right now my phone is two feet away from me on my desk. So just having it there dilutes the conversation because they found that when people talk without it present, they feel more connected, like nothing is standing in the way between us. But when the phone is there, they know that at any moment that phone might ring, that phone might make a noise and my attention will be diverted and it dilutes the conversation. So, make sure your phones are completely not present when you are having that face-to-face time with your kids. And then the last thing I want to say is just have that mindset of strategy number eight, which is I am launching an adult, I am not babying a child. And men tend to be pretty good at this. And again, this is a generality, but women, we're more like, oh, like let me do it for you. So it's okay to let your kids grow up. And one thing my pastor says that I like very much is never do something for your child that your child can do on their own. So, something I love to do with my kids is I love to trim their nails, right? So, they're in elementary school, I'm trimming their nails, I'm trimming their nails. And my husband James would be like, honey, like they're in third, fourth grade, they can trim their own nails. And I'm like, the pinky, very tricky, the thumb, very difficult, you know? And so finally, I got to the point where it's like, okay, you know, Lucy, that's my youngest, you are responsible now for trimming your own nails and I won't do it anymore. But it's funny, like I would sneak around the house like when my husband wasn't watching and trim her nails because I just felt like I do a better job of this. And so, as moms, we need to realize someday our kids will go out of our house and they need to be able to trim their own nails. So mama, you just got to back down. So, a lot of times it's we as moms that have to back away and say, you know what? I need to let them do this on their own because they are an adult and they're going to need this skill very soon.
Laura Dugger: (26:42 - 26:49) Okay, so it's don't ever do for your child what they can do for themselves. Is that the saying?
Arlene Pellicane: (26:49 - 26:50) Yes, that's the saying.
Laura Dugger: (26:51 - 26:56) Arlene, if people want to connect further, where can listeners find you online?
Arlene Pellicane: (26:57 - 27:22) They can find me on ArlenePellicane.com and I actually have a video series that goes with this book, Parents Rising, and I've designed it for a small group or for personal use so that each message is about 20 minutes long so you could watch the message and then you could have a discussion group with moms or with parents or by yourself. And so that's at ArlenePellicane.com and you can also find me on Instagram, Facebook and my podcast is called The Happy Home Podcast.
Laura Dugger: (27:23 - 27:41) Fantastic. We will link to all of these in our show notes and on our resources page of our website. We are called the Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so today, Arlene, we would love to know what is your savvy sauce?
Arlene Pellicane: (27:42 - 28:49) So my savvy sauce has to do with someone you have interviewed in the past, Clifford and Joyce Penner, and I interviewed them for my book 31 Days to a Happy Husband, and they talked about the 5 to 30 second kiss, the 5 to 30 second daily kiss to keep the pilot light lit between you and your spouse. So that is my savvy sauce is attempting the 5 to 30 second kiss every day. And I will tell you, you know, even I'm the author, ooh, I've been married 21 years. Wow, like we still have trouble with this so much so that my husband has literally printed out a page, put it on the refrigerator, and we put an X on every day that we do this. So, whenever we realize, well, we are not kissing regularly anymore, the chart goes up on the refrigerator and we start making Xs. And it was so funny because my daughter, my youngest, had asked like, what's that chart for? And she asked me in such a moment that I wasn't ready to make up a funny story about it. So, I just said, oh, it's a kissing chart for daddy and I. And she's just like, what? So that's our savvy sauce, the attempt of the 5 to 30 second kiss every day.
Laura Dugger: (28:49 - 28:58) I love your savvy sauce. And Arlene, it is always such a pleasure to get to spend time with you and learn from you. Thank you for being my guest.
Arlene Pellicane: (28:59 - 29:01) It's been my pleasure. It's been so fun. Thanks for having me.
Laura Dugger: (29:02 - 32:44) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.
This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.
Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.
Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.
First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.
You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Mar 16, 2026
Monday Mar 16, 2026
Titus 3:3-8 NIV “At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.”
*Transcription Below*
Hunter Beless is an author of several children’s books including Read It, See It, Say It, Sing It! and Amy Carmichael: The Brown-Eyed Girl Who Learned to Pray. She is also a Bible teacher, co-author of Titus: Displaying the Gospel of Grace and the founder of Journeywomen Ministries, which empowers women to live out their faith through deep commitment to their local church. Hunter hosts the Journeywomen Podcast, sharing resources and insightful conversations with women of faith. She and her husband, Brooks, have four beautiful children, whom Hunter homeschools. You can find her on Instagram @hunterbeless, or at https://www.hunterbeless.com/books.
Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Sue Neihouser Team
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Questions and Topics We Cover:
1. What rhythms have been most profitable to you (spiritually, relationally, physically, and productively?)
2. In your own home, how have you intentionally helped your children know and love God through Scripture?
3. How is the Gospel useful for not only salvation, but also sanctification?
Similar Episodes from The Savvy Sauce:
16 Reflecting Jesus in Our Relationships with Rach Kincaid
150 Brain Science and Spiritual Abundance with Ken Baugh
166 Journey from Empty to Well Nourished Soul with Gretchen Saffles
207 Cultivating Character in Our Children with Cynthia Yanof
Special Patreon Release Wholehearted Quiet Time with Naomi Vacaro
267 Apologetics with Ray Comfort
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
*Transcription*
Music: (0:00 – 0:11)
Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:16)
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
Thank you to the Sue Neihouser Team for sponsoring this episode. If you're looking to buy or sell a home this season, make sure you reach out to Sue at 309-229-8831. Sue would love to walk alongside you as you unlock new doors.
My guest for today is Hunter Beless, and you may recognize her as the founder of Journey Women Ministries. She's also a podcaster and an author of multiple books, including this recent one, Jesus Loves You More. Hunter is going to share today about all things discipleship.
Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Hunter.
Hunter Beless: (1:17 - 1:23) Thank you so, much for having me. I just love the concept of this show, and I'm excited to be here with you today.
Laura Dugger: (1:23 - 1:56) Well, I've been looking so, forward to getting to chat with you. You've been on my list for years, so, I'm thankful this worked out. And even, it may have been years ago, but I heard you publicly share that you had chosen to put your faith in Christ in elementary school, I believe. But then as you transitioned into high school, you were open about then choosing to pursue the ways of the world. So, will you just speak to that experience and talk to that teenage girl who's currently facing some similar temptations?
Hunter Beless: (1:56 - 6:39) Oh, that'd be such a privilege to get to speak to any young woman who is in a situation like this. I often think, like, if I would have just had one older friend who was encouraging me in the Lord, who would be willing to testify to God's grace in her life, and who would reach back and try and help me just to continue walking in the grace that he had extended to me through his son, like, I wonder if it would have gone differently for me, Laura. But, you know, the Lord did save me at a young age, and I lived fervently for him, loved God's word, even from a young age.
And I remember, like, seeing groups of people that I wanted to like me, and wanting so, desperately to be accepted by them. But knowing that when I opened the pages of scripture, the Holy Spirit brought conviction to my heart in a way that would not allow me to act in accordance with the things that these groups were doing, in order to be approved of by them. And so, I thought to myself, "Well, maybe I'll just stop reading my Bible so, much." This is about eighth or ninth grade. And, you know, then I won't feel a sense of conviction when it comes to, like, these behaviors that I know I need to, you know, adapt to, in order to be approved of by the people that I deemed, you know, significant. And so, I set my Bible aside.
And it's a really sad story. I mean, as I continued to spend time outside of God's word, I would still go to church with my family and things like that on Sunday mornings. But I just began to look less and less like a follower of Christ, and more and more like the world. And eventually, you know, I spent my entire duration of my high school years doing that. And I have to tell you; I just went back to my 20-year high school reunion. And there was a girl that I saw there. And she told me what a jerk I was in that season of my life. And it was such a wonderful thing to be reminded of what it looks like for me to not be walking in the Spirit, but to be walking in the flesh. And to really have to reckon with, that is what it looks like to be walking like the world.
And I just told her, I said, "You know what, you're completely right." I said, "I was." I was totally looking out for my good and not for the good of others. I was absolutely living for myself and not for the Lord. But by God's grace, when it came time for my senior year of high school, he allowed me to get to the end of myself. And you would have thought, like, looking back, I had the resume, I had the 4.0, I had the salutatorian status, I was the president of my high school senior class. You would have thought, this girl's crushing it. But I had never been more anxious, more depressed, more insecure, more selfish, obviously, as testified to by the girl that I just referenced, than I was in that season of my life.
And I remember I had a youth pastor who had just come into our church. And he said, "Hey," he said, "How's your time in the word looking?" And I said, "Well, I could either lie, or I could tell the truth." And I said, "You know, it's looking pretty, pretty bleak." And he said, "I just want to challenge you to get back in God's word." And at the same time, my dad had a tragic accident. It was a near death accident. And I was kind of reckoned with the brevity of life as a senior in high school. And I cried out to the Lord. And I said, "God, if you really are who you say you are, would you show me who you are through your word?"
And that sparked, Laura, this passion for God's word. And it allowed me then to see the difference in my own life, what it looks like for Hunter to be walking without listening to the voice of God, and what it looked like for Hunter to have her face in her Bible, and to seek to live by God's word. And I tell you what, I probably don't look nearly as impressive by the world's standards. But the joy and the peace, and really just the transformation that the Lord has accomplished in my life through his word, is something that I cannot stop testifying to. And I just cannot encourage women enough, like if you are wrestling with the flesh, to get into God's word, because God works by the power of the Holy Spirit through his word in the lives of his people. And so, that's why really this whole passion has just overtaken my life for God's word.
Laura Dugger: (6:40 - 6:59) Wow, that is incredible to hear that transformation, because God did it, and God can do it again. And God can do it for each one of us listening. But you are so passionate about discipling others. Can you first tell us, what were some of the significant ways that you've been discipled?
Hunter Beless: (7:00 - 10:07) Yeah, well, I went to college, and that was the first time that I had ever really had someone seeking to do spiritual good in my life, outside of my parents. And really, even with my parents, like, you know, sitting down intentionally studying the word, that wasn't a part of our family culture. And so, when I went to college, there was a girl, her name was Meredith. And I remember, she sat down, and she taught me how to read my Bible, for really the very first time. I remember being confronted with some of the truths of scripture, Laura, and I'm like, "That's in the Bible? That disrupts me. Like, I didn't know that, you know?" And so, it was such a wonderful time, just of really kind of being confronted with my own theological ideas from my, you know, lack of ability and time to really understand the message of the text, you know, and then to really reevaluate that and be conformed to the text and to allow it to conform me. So, Meredith had a significant influence in my life in how to study the Bible.
And then I had an older woman named Joyce, who at the time, I believe, was in her late 40s, maybe early 50s. And I just remember, Joyce found out that I began to memorize scripture. So, somewhere along the way, I realized, like, this book is so, significant that I need to start, you know, hiding scripture away in my heart. Some of that was just watching my own grandmother and seeing the way that the Lord had used scripture in her own life. And realizing, like, wow, if my grandmother has these truths hidden away in her heart for this season, and she had dementia, I need to start hiding scripture away in my heart, too. So, Joyce and I really, we started up a group on scripture memory.
And I'll never forget the first time I met her, she said, "Hey, I heard you're starting to memorize Ephesians." I never finished. But she said, "Let's hear it." And so, she just opened up her Bible. And I just started quoting Ephesians. And one of Joyce's coined phrases that at the time I didn't realize was actually scripture itself, she would hold the Bible out in front of me. And she would say, "Hunter, this is no empty word for you, but your very life." And she had so many phrases like that, that I didn't even realize at the time, because I was pretty biblically illiterate, that were the words of scripture themselves. That's Deuteronomy 32:47. And Joyce really embodied that message for me, that scripture is that man doesn't live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God. And so, watching her just live with her face in her Bible, proverbially speaking, and seeking to meditate on its truths and live by those day in and day out really transformed who I am even today. And she gave me a picture of what I'd like to look like years down the road.
So, I've had various mentors, but those are some of the first. And the Lord definitely used them in significant ways to do spiritual good in my life.
Laura Dugger: (10:08 - 10:36) And I don't know what kind of life those women lead if they're in public or more private disciplines, but their faithfulness, you just see the impact how it ripples out to bless generations. And even you, Hunter, you're leading this incredible ministry, where you disciple others through helping women know and love God through his word. So, will you share how you ended up getting to do this awesome work that you get to do today?
Hunter Beless: (10:37 - 15:41) Oh, well, the beginnings of this, you would not have thought were awesome. And in fact, you and I were just chatting, and I still am recording out of my closet. And really, it's all just been an overflow of what the Lord has been doing in my own life. And I did feel like along the way, I just, I began to just love learning from older women. And I do think that's a biblical, like scriptural kind of practice. You look at Titus 2, you see the older women are to teach the younger women what is good. I was a younger woman who loved learning from older women. And so, I had this, over the years, this just long list of women who had invested in me who had, you know, testified to God's grace in their life, who had taught me the scriptures.
And when my husband Brooks and I were in the military, we found ourselves on post. And just due to the transiency of a military lifestyle, the churches around military installations tend to be a little bit tired, sometimes depleted, because people in the military are moving so, frequently. So, it's hard, right, to have continuity to see people through in their discipling process and all of that. And so, I really missed those mentors that I'd had from college, and the year after college, after coming into marriage. And so, I thought to myself, like, man, I want the other women. I was also interfacing with either believers or non-believers who really had never been discipled. And I thought, man, I just wish I could get you with Joyce, or I wish I could get you with Meredith. I wish I could connect you, you know, with X, Y, or Z woman from the past couple of years.
And so, I thought, I also simultaneously was listening to a lot of podcasts because I was super lonely. Just because, you know, moving into a new culture, and then my husband was gone at least 50% of the time for training or deployment. And so, I'd be walking along the military installation listening to like sermon audio, like John Piper or Timothy Keller or whatever. And I thought, man, I wish that there was a conversational podcast about theology for women that would just be more warm and kind of like what we're doing right now. And my husband was like, "Well, you should start it." And so, I just started with the women who had mentored me. If you go back to the very beginning of the podcast, it's truly like my college roommates. It's my mentors from Pine Cove Christian Camps where Brooks and I met.
And I think I just by God's grace, the podcasting network was so, small at the time. I remember Journey Women landed in the number two spot right behind Joel Osteen whenever the thing launched. And so, then from there, it just gave the podcast some notoriety, which is what then allowed, you know, some of the names that you would recognize to reach out and to say, "Hey, you know, could we come on the podcast?" And at the time, I had no knowledge of, you know, how to market people marketing books or any of that Bible studies, etc. And yeah, it was a really fun season, actually, because it was pre-COVID. And you know, people weren't used to doing a whole lot online. And so, had some really, really fun conversations. And along the way, the Lord has helped me to hone in more of a vision of what I'm doing. Because at first, it was just like, let's get in the closet and have like fun, intentional conversations that I could share with my girlfriends or with maybe the military spouse that I'm meeting on the playground that I may never see again, you know.
And then along the way, people started even wanting to donate to the podcast and different things like that. And I thought, I really need to have a clearer aim. And so, now, you know, over the past eight years, the Lord has given us this mission to help women know and love God through his word, to find their hope in the gospel and to invest deeply in their local churches as they go out on mission for the glory of God. And some of that came and Laura, I'm sure you face this from women really seeking out discipling online, and us realizing we can't disciple you. Like, we cannot come alongside you and help you to grow in godliness, you know, but we can do that via the interwebs. But the degree to which we're able to do that is super-duper limited. And so, what does it look like for us then to equip women so, that then they would be encouraged to seek out fellowship in the local church, and to be investing their time, energy and talents in the local church. And so, that's become kind of our resounding gong at Journey Women over the years, just because we really do believe that ministry happens best in the context of the local church. And that's something that the Lord has validated through seeing women reaching out online and realizing like, hey, we could never, you know, provide what they need. But God in his grace has given us the local body that is able to do that.
Laura Dugger: (15:42 - 19:08) So, well said, because this is a great place that we can meet people anytime what is most convenient for them with a podcast. But then also, so, that's great for sowing seeds. But there's nothing that replaces that embodied relationship. And it just makes me think of God that he created us that way. And he knew it because Jesus even being embodied, little baby sent to earth, so, nothing replaces that. And, Hunter, I just I love hearing about your public ministry and the way the Lord has blessed and grown it.
And now a brief message from our sponsor. With over 28 years of experience in real estate, Sue Neihouser of the Sue Neihouser Team is a RE/MAX agent of Central Illinois, and she loves to walk alongside her clients as they unlock new doors. For anyone local, I highly recommend you call Sue today at 309-229-8831. And you can ask her any real estate questions. Sue lives in Central Illinois and loves this community and all that it has to offer. When unlocking new doors with her clients, Sue works hard to gain a depth of understanding of their motivations and dreams and interests in buying and selling their home. And then she commits to extensive market research that will give them confidence in their decision. Sue truly cares for each of her clients and the relationship she forms with each family along the entire home buying or selling process. This was absolutely our experience when we worked with Sue and her team. The house that we desired at the time was actually not even on the market, but Sue had a connection and was able to ask those homeowners if they would be willing to sell. She was timely in her response as she walked us through this whole process, and she helped us sell our home with the right offer coming in hours after it was listed. We kept saying she's thought of everything. And Sue's continued generosity was astonishing. I remember one afternoon after we had settled into our new home, and she was knocking on the door dropping off a goodie bag for our family that came from the local bakery. Our daughters also loved getting to know Miss Sue as she assisted us in finding truly our dream home.
So, whether you're looking to buy a home for the first time, or looking to upgrade or downsize, or making the big decision to move to an assisted living from your home of many years, Sue will be there to help you navigate the big emotions and ensure the process is smooth and stress free, and that the new doors to be unlocked are ready and waiting for more memories to be made. So, call her today at 309-229-8831 or visit her website at sueneihouser.com. And that is sueneihouser.com. Thanks for your sponsorship.
I'd also love to hear a little bit more about your personal life. So, what does a day in the life look like for Hunter Beless?
Hunter Beless: (19:09 - 21:25) Well, I think if somebody joined me in a day in a life, in this season, Laura, I feel like I'm too busy. I have committed to too much. And so, what it looks like practically, it's going to be a lot of time running from this or that event and just trying to do the things that I committed to before or some of the other things that the Lord has allowed in my life came to fruition. But just leaning into him for the grace that I need moment by moment, you know, and trusting that he is the same and that he has provided all of the grace that I need. His grace is sufficient for me, you know, as I'm running errands and facing the temptation to feel anxious or overwhelmed that, you know, I think it's Luke 12, where it's talking about how I can't even add a moment, not even the smallest amount of time to my life by worrying. So, I'm just going to entrust all of this to the Lord.
So, for me, I wonder how many women are listening to this and that they can relate to this because I talked to various people who they don't have a podcast, but they don't have the same work as me, but they feel that same temptation towards anxiety and the feelings of overwhelms that we all face, you know, and yeah, I think my life probably looks a lot like many of y'all's. And for me, it's just the constant meditation on scripture and just rehearsing the truths of God's word that are never changing, even in the midst of my ever-changing and chaotic circumstances. So, it doesn't seem to change even if I do a better job, which I could have done, planning my schedule or, you know, prayerfully considering the commitments that I made, but just resting and knowing that he is unchanging and that he is ever-present and that he is all-knowing and that he has provided everything that I need and his son.
So, that is what it looks like. Every day looks different, but again, leaning into the truths of God's word, meditating on those truths, rehearsing those truths over and over, and resting in the grace that the gospel provides. That's the thing that never changes.
Laura Dugger: (21:27 - 22:06) And I love that overview because if we look from the outside, you're homeschooling, you run this ministry, you have a podcast, and you're cooking healthy recipes for your family, but I'm sure do you also have weekly patterns? Because to me, it's a stewardship issue. You've been faithful with little, it sounds like, so, he has given you the opportunity to be faithful in much, and it's a season of much where you've written books and produced all this content. So, do you have a system in place or rhythms throughout the week that have helped you live that full, abundant life?
Hunter Beless: (22:06 - 24:19) Yeah, that's a really good question. Obviously, the weekly rhythm that we always start with is worshiping with the saints on Sunday. I look forward to that like no other. And we are in a church that the Lord is just so, gracious to have provided a pastor who prioritizes the preaching of the word and who is consistently proclaiming the gospel from the pulpit. And so, Laura, on the weeks where I feel like I have been so, busy that I have not spent the time in God's word that I would desire, just the recognition that going to church on a Sunday is such a blessing to get to receive God's word. And so, there have been many times that I just show up and I'm just like, "Thank you, Lord." Thank you for the provision of your word. Thank you for the provision of the body of Christ. And so, Sundays are just like a non-negotiable for us. We go to church on Sundays. And then, you know, we have various things. My kids are actually homeschooled on two days out of the week or three days out of the week. And then, they go to school two days. So, we do like a university model is what it's called.
And so, on the three days that they are home, I am full tilt homeschooling, doing everything home-related.
And in fact, I have had to learn that part of their education is also helping care for our home. And so, we really see it as a team effort to keep the home, like, tidy and running and functioning well, so that we can, you know, spend as much time in it as we do, like, with happy hearts. And then, on Tuesdays and Thursdays, I typically am in this closet working while the children are at school. Saturdays, we rest together as a family. We spend a lot of time outdoors. I also make bread regularly. And I think there's something liturgical for me about making bread. And, like, when everything else feels, like, a little bit chaotic and out of my control, the beauty of just doing a simple task like making bread to provide food for my family and nourishment is something that really brings me great joy. So, Saturdays are also bread-making days. And then, the week begins again. That is awesome.
Laura Dugger: (24:19 - 24:41) I love hearing that. And it makes me curious to go even a little bit further. I'll give you a few categories, but I'd love to hear what rhythms in these categories have been most profitable to you. So, when you think of it spiritually, physically, relationally, and just productively, how you stay creatively fresh.
Hunter Beless: (24:41 - 28:24) Yeah. You know, spiritually for me, and I'm a mother of, like, young children, right? So, my kids are ranging from age 11 to age 3. I would say we're still in a season in which sleep is a little bit unpredictable, particularly in those early waking hours. But I do my very best to try and get in God's Word first. And that is not because I want to check it off the list, but because I need the people in my home and beyond. So, really trying to just orient myself rightly to the truths of God's Word first thing is huge. I also do try to work out. So, that gets to the physical piece. I neglected working out for many years. I actually, hilariously, was a personal trainer when we were back in the military. And that was kind of my gig while Brooks was gone. And so, I know how to work out, and I enjoy working out. But with the children, it has been a difficult thing for me to prioritize. But just this last year, I got, this is the most, like, basic thing ever. I got a Peloton. I bought it secondhand off of Marketplace. And it has just been a wonderful way for me to sweat and exercise my body first thing in the morning without, you know, really requiring a whole lot. I don't have to leave the house. I don't have to go outside or anything, because Brooks does travel quite a bit still for work. And so, I try to ride the Peloton. Doesn't always happen. Happens less than it does, than I want for it to, but it does help.
And then, yeah, relationally is really, that's a really good question. I think one thing that the Lord has blessed me with, having lived a season of extreme transiency, right? So, we did eight years of military. And then, we did two years at, you know, university where Brooks got his MBA. And now, we're in our first, like, what we would call, like, a civilian kind of location, where he's got his first civilian job. We're almost 15 years deep into marriage now. And so, all of the friendships that I made along those eight years of moving almost annually. I think we moved, like, six or seven times in eight years. Yeah, just trying to maintain those relationships. I only have one or two from each duty station, but I love using Voxer or Voice Memo to keep in touch with people who have known me for, you know, a longer time. And that's just one thing that's really fun. I have to be careful not to let that overtake my time on my phone, but I do love to keep in touch with old friends. And they are some of the friends that the Lord has used just really to help me navigate the various challenges that we face, right, in life and relationally in marriage and all of that.
So, anyways, and relationally in marriage, Brooks and I were really just relishing in the friendship that God has given us with one another. I don't think it's been easy over the years, especially with all of the transiency and all of the deployments and all of the many moves that we've faced. But God has really just given us a true appreciation for one another. And to begin to see now, 15 years into marriage, that the differences that He has given each of us are a gift to help us be conformed into the image of His Son. So, that's some of it, spiritually, physically, relationally. Did I miss anything?
Laura Dugger: (28:25 - 28:32) Just even productively as you're creating content, how do you stay creatively inspired and fresh?
Hunter Beless: (28:33 - 30:55) Yeah, I love, my friend Gretchen Stoffels has a lot of wonderful things to say about this. She talks a lot about producing from the overflow and not the undertow. And that's ministered to me over the years. I find a lot of times when I am not creatively fresh, it's either because I'm overproducing or because I'm not honestly spending, most of what I do is all revolving around God's Word. So, it's like if I'm not spending time in God's Word and allowing myself to just be struck anew with truths from the text, then what do I have to share? So, that helps me too in knowing when am I overcommitted? Because if I don't have time then to be relishing in God's Word, not for the sake of producing something, but just like you said, just being struck and wonder by who God is, then I really need to reevaluate the commitments that I'm making and slow things down a bit. And so, that's kind of what has helped me to protect that time with the Lord so that then I would have something to offer others.
And I don't just think about it in terms of producing a podcast or writing a book or sending out a newsletter. I mean, honestly, even with the children, this has been something that I've been thinking about for the last six to eight months. If I want them to understand how God's Word informs all of life, then I need to be with my face in my Bible because who is it that they spend the most time with, right? All throughout their life. Like, it's me. And so, I get to then help them realize like, oh, here is how Scripture applies to all these different circumstances. But if I don't spend time in God's Word, then I've got nothing to give. And I have a friend who was a missionary actually in a remote country with the IMB. And I asked her, I said, "How did you ever evangelize with people in this remote context from this different religion and all of this?" And she said, "You know what, I just had to be so, filled up with God's Word that that's what came out." And I think about that all the time. So, when I'm feeling dry, I'm like, "Oop, oop, that's a good sign. I need to go back to God's Word."
Laura Dugger: (30:56 - 31:07) I love that. And let's go there then in your own home. How have you intentionally helped your children to know and to love God through Scripture?
Hunter Beless: (31:09 - 33:52) This is going to sound really selfish, but, you know, this whole endeavor, right, I've realized the significance of God's Word in my own life. And so, I'm constantly thinking, Laura, like, how am I going to get into God's Word? You know, like, that's, it sounds selfish. But if I really believe that I need God's Word for all of life, I'm going to have to figure out how am I going to get that in. And then it's wonderful because I get to bring the children along in that. So, maybe that's just like a fresh take on it, right? Because we're always thinking as mothers, like, how can we be investing in our children more heavily in all of these things? And I think those are good and right desires. Obviously, Deuteronomy speaks to that. You know, we're supposed to teach our children diligently the ways of the Lord. But I think it's just so refreshing when we come to the text as learners, as co-learners. And so, for me, I'm just always thinking, like, how can we learn together who God's Word is? How can we worship the Lord together in our home?
And then it helps me see those times, right, when you are offering instruction to the children, when you are being intentional about, you know, for us, we do, like, catechesis, for example, which is a series of questions and answers just to help disseminate doctrinal truths and help the children learn, like, here are, you know, foundational doctrine of the Christian faith. Then I'm not just like, "Okay, who is God? You know, God is the Spirit." I'm, like, thinking about the things that we're learning in a way where I also am seeking to learn as well. And I think that just gives a posture of humility, too. Like, as a parent, where it's not like, "You gotta learn your Bible verse this week, kid." You know, it's like, "We get to, we get to, look, we get to learn God's Word together, you know?" And then that helps them understand the joy of learning God's Word. And it also gives them a very real picture of a parent who's being transformed by the truths of God's Word. What better witness is there? And so, really, I've stopped seeing it as, "Hey, here's our time," you know, which we do have.
And practically, for us, a lot of that happens around the table because I've realized that, like, when children are well-fed, when they have something to do with their hands, they may be a little bit more prone to, like, have open ears, ready to hear, you know, instruction. But we do have those rhythms kind of in place, but I don't want it to be relegated to those rhythms. I want it to be all of life. I want us to understand it doesn't just mean we're gonna sit here over breakfast and do our Bible reading for the day. This is something that is really going with us through the day because we need it not just for this moment, but for all of life.
Laura Dugger: (33:53 - 35:38) You draw so much wisdom there, and I think especially that it's not an either-or, having that set-aside rhythm and time, or just hoping it'll be incorporated into all of life. But it's both.
I want to make sure that you're up to date with our latest news. We have a new website. You can visit thesavvysauce.com and see all of the latest updates. You may remember Francie Henrichsen from Episode 132, where we talked about pursuing our God-given dreams. She is the amazing businesswoman who has carefully designed a brand-new website for Savvy Sauce Charities, and we are thrilled with the final product, so, I hope you check it out. There you're going to find all of our podcasts, now with show notes and transcriptions listed, a scrapbook of various previous guests, and an easy place to join our email list to receive monthly encouragement and questions to ask your loved ones, so, that you can have your own practical chats for intentional living. You will also be able to access our donation button, or our mailing address, for sending checks that are tax-deductible, so, that you can support the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and help us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. So, make sure you visit thesavvysauce.com today.
Even going back to the heart of this conversation of discipleship, Hunter, how do you think the local church, and especially older women in the community, can play a vital role in encouraging young people to love Scripture?
Hunter Beless: (35:40 - 39:34) You know, I love this question, and I just, I cannot overemphasize the value of older women who love God's Word in the church enough. You know, I think in the culture, we're hearing and seeing that, you know, it's not good to grow old. I mean, that's being perpetuated by all of the Instagram ads that we receive, and by seeing shiny faces that look like they haven't aged one bit. And I'm like, "No, God's Word says that women, older women in particular, have tremendous value in the family of God." And so, I think I want older women just to realize, like, we need you. And in fact, no one is exempt. No woman is exempt from the Titus 2 mandate to teach the younger women what is good. And how do we know what's good? Well, we know God alone is good. And because God is good, we know His Word is good. And if you don't have any clue, like how to reach back and invest in the next generation, I have great news for you. All you need is God's Word.
So, I mean, the littlest learners, the children in the community, I think they are the most gracious recipients of anybody in our community, you know, just when it comes to God's Word. And so, look for ways that you can encourage the younger people in your sphere of influence, in your local church, with God's Word. And often I think that just starts with maybe even meditating on one verse. You know, it can be that simple. Or for me, one way that I want to encourage, you know, the children in my life with God's Word is by identifying ways that I see God working in their lives and naming it. I mean, how encouraging would that be if an older saint in the church said, "Hey, you know, I don't know, my oldest daughter's name is Hadley. Hey, Hadley, like, I see God working in you. You are showing kindness, you know, to the other children in the church. Thank you so much for that. And I'm just praising God for the work he's doing in your life," you know.
But I think in order for them to do that, right, they have to be willing to be inconvenienced by being around the children. And we just had a sermon on this, a wonderful sermon from the book of Mark about Jesus saying, "Let the little children come to me." And so, I think just realizing that Jesus himself, right, he was unbothered. He delighted in the presence of children. So, I think in our older age, you know, especially after you have young kids and you've done all of your time, you know, investing in the next generation in that way, just realizing that there is value in serving in kids' ministry or children's ministry in the church and just getting around the children to be able to give yourself the opportunity to know them in a way where you can meet them with the truths of God's Word. It could also be just having younger families in your home. And I know that can be such an inconvenience. I mean, we're a hot mess. We are so chaotic. And I know, you know, you even have to consider the breakables. Like, you got to protect those, you know, when we come into the house. But figure out, like, what does hospitality look like where we can welcome in younger children, the families with younger children in the home, seek to encourage the parents. I mean, truly, Laura, what else are we doing here? Like, we have been given two things. We have been given the mission of evangelizing and discipling. And that message is the same.
At the heart of both of those things is the gospel. The gospel is for salvation and for sanctification. And so, if you're an older person in the church, keep meditating on the gospel. Keep, you know, seeking to disseminate the truths of the gospel to everybody around you. And remember, the littlest of these, I think, are the most eager learners. And it's such a great opportunity.
Laura Dugger: (39:36 - 39:52) Goodness, I love that. And as you say, disseminate these truths of the gospel for both salvation and sanctification. Can you even share clearly what is that gospel that applies to everyone?
Hunter Beless: (39:53 - 43:58) Oh, yes. I mean, this is the good news that I continually am rehearsing over and over and over again. I think for me, you know, I realized as a young child that the gospel was for salvation, right? That I love the Titus 3. You know, I just wrote this Bible study on Titus with Courtney Docter. If you don't have, like, a great comprehensive kind of gospel text that you've got in your back pocket, I think Titus 3:3-7 is a wonderful text to commit to memory. It says, "So, we are sinners." Romans 3:23. You know, we were created by God to glorify him. And yet, we have chosen to glorify ourselves. Romans 3:23 says, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." So, we too were once foolish. I think it's easy to see that when you really think about your life. You know, like, even me testifying to my life in high school. We too were once foolish. There's no getting around that. But we too, let me see, where am I now? "But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us," "not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy," So, how does he save us? Well, he sent his son, Jesus. When did the kindness of God our Savior appear? Well, it appeared over 2,000 years ago. In a stable in Bethlehem. When, like you said, God sent his son to live a perfect life. And then he gave his life on the cross so, that we might have right relationship with God. He saved us. Not by works of righteousness, but according to his mercy, "By the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit."
So, when, and by the way, he rose from the grave. Let's see, is that in here? I don't know. But let's see. That one's not in this particular gospel text of Titus 3:3-7. But we know that from the gospels, right? That Jesus Christ died on the cross. And that he rose again three days later. Overcoming death. So, that we too might not have to experience eternal death. We get to experience eternal life. When we turn from our sin and trust in him. And that's when that washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit happens. We're filled with the spirit. He's poured out his spirit on us. Verses 6 and 7 says, "whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life." And so, I think part of what it looks like for us to live with that hope of eternal life. Is to constantly be reflecting upon who we were apart from Christ. Who we are in Christ. And who we will be when we one day see Christ again. Face to face. And so, that for me is what it looks like. Just to relish in the gospel. To remember the gospel.
Even when I was talking earlier, Laura, about feeling overwhelmed. The temptation for me then is to feel down on myself. And to wrestle with shame. Because I've over committed, right? But I'm rehearsing the truths of the gospel to myself in that moment. And saying, "Okay. Yes, could I have planned my schedule better? Yes, could I have done all these things? But you know what? I, by God's grace, get instead to rest in the grace that the gospel provides for me in this moment. Knowing that with all these various responsibilities, I am not going to be executing them perfectly. But he has perfectly accomplished my salvation on the cross. And so, I can rest in his son. Knowing that my salvation is not based on my perfect performance. But on the performance of Christ." And that then again helps me then to relish in the gospel. To remember the gospel, like I said, is not just for that moment of salvation or justification. When we're saved from our sins and made right with God. But it's also for every moment of every day. Because we need it all the time. At least I do.
Laura Dugger: (44:00 - 44:20) Yes, absolutely. And I think we can hear that or repeat that so, often. But I love how you unpack it. Because especially for those who have been saved. When they rely on the gospel for sanctification. Can you give any more examples of what that looks like? Specifically for sanctification after the salvation?
Hunter Beless: (44:21 - 46:35) Yeah. I think it's just coming to a greater understanding of our desperate need for Jesus. And then as we rely on him more wholly. I think we're conformed even more into the image of his son. Just after that gospel hymn in Titus 3. Verse 8 says, "The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works." So, what is sanctification? Well, sanctification is growing in godliness. Or said another way, it's growing in good works. Right? So, we're not saved because of our good works. We're saved by the gospel so, that then we can produce good works. By God's grace. That's the sanctification process. And so, how does that happen? Well, verse 8 tells us, "The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things." What does it want us to insist on? It wants us to insist then on the contents of the gospel from Titus 3:3-7. So, we need to, in order to grow in our ability to do good to others. What do we do? We insist on the gospel.
And how does that work? Well, when I am feeling, again, overbooked, overwhelmed. And somebody comes into my life that needs service. If I'm functioning by the world's wisdom, what am I going to say? "You know what? I just don't have the margin for that. I can't do that. I need to protect my time." But if I'm looking at the gospel, what do I see? Well, I see what Christ died for me. Was that act of service self-protective in any way? No. So, what does it look like for me then to lay down my life for the good of another? And that's how the gospel then informs our living in such a way that we begin to grow by God's grace, not by our own effort, in godliness. So, I think that's how the sanctification process kind of works itself out.
Laura Dugger: (46:35 - 46:54) Thank you so much for sharing that. And you've taught us already so, much in this time together. But you've also written a book recently for children. Can you tell us a little bit more about it and share the lasting truths that you want to impart to children who get to read or listen to your book?
Hunter Beless: (46:55 - 49:47) Yeah. I think it started for me with really thinking about what are those kinds of scriptural, biblical truths that I want to offer to the children in these everyday moments like we've been talking about. My son, I already shared, he's been struggling with sleep for the last year or so,. And he'll come tumbling down the stairs in the middle of the night. And my initial reaction to that is to want to say, "It's okay. Mommy's here." Right? And that's true. And I do think that offers some temporal comfort. And it is a good thing for a mother to be present in the time of a child's need. But thinking more deeply, I began to say, "Buddy, God is with you. You have no need to fear." And the reason for that is because I started thinking about, well, what if mommy wasn't here? What if I wasn't able to be here? And some of that came just from having lost my own father in the last few years to cancer spontaneously. And just thinking, like, what are the lasting truths that I then want to impart to my children when I'm no longer able to be present? So, it is true. It's comfort that mommy is here in your time of need. But also, even when mommy's not able to be here, remember, God is with you always.
And it's been such an encouragement for me then to even see him, like, on the playground and his little buddy will get hurt. And he'll turn and he'll tell his buddy, like, "It's okay. God's with you." You know what I'm thinking? "That's so, good. Like, this is the kind of stuff that I want to be just ingrained within the children so, that their initial reaction is, 'It's okay. God is with me.'" Similarly, the message that is repeated throughout the book is, "Jesus Loves You More". And that was really instigated from one of my children requesting for me to say over and over again this popular phrase that we've all heard, "I love you to the moon and back." And I started thinking, like, "Okay, that's true. I do. I love you to the moon and back. I love you to the, you know, mountaintop and to the ocean floor. I love you as far as the east is from the west. But there is one who loves you even more than I ever could. And in fact, when my love fails you, His never will." And so, I wanted to get that.
If there's one message that I want my kids to know, it's that. It's that Jesus loves them so, much that he went all the way to the cross at Calvary and gave his very life so, that they could be made right with God. So, that's the message that I hope kids will take away from the book. I do hope that it inspires parents to think about what are those lasting truths that they want to impart to their kids. And I hope it equips them then to be able to share what I believe as Christian parents is the most important message we could ever give.
Laura Dugger: (49:48 - 49:54) I just want to acknowledge too, I'm so, sorry for the sudden loss of your father in recent years.
Hunter Beless: (49:55 - 50:19) Well, thank you. Yeah, it's, you know, my kids were just saying as we were hiking this last weekend, they're like, "We miss puppy." But we're like, I'm at a point now where I did go through many years of grief, missing him, you know, all of this. But just relishing in the fact that he's in the presence of the Lord Jesus. And I am just so grateful because he's in a much better place. So, I'm looking forward to the day that I get to join him there. Amen.
Laura Dugger: (50:20 - 50:28) Well, Hunter, you've already given us so much, but where can we go to continue being discipled by you after this conversation?
Hunter Beless: (50:30 - 51:14) Well, if you like conversations like this, you know, I infrequently show up at Journey Women. We used to do a weekly show and then it turned to bi-weekly and now we're seasonal. But I do love having conversations just like this. And I hope that, you know, just as our conversation today, I hope it encourages women just to get together, like you said, with women in their local context to open up God's word. And just to go deeper, relationally, conversationally, to come together around the truths of God's word. You've asked such great questions, Laura. And I think take some of these questions and ask your friends and see where the Lord guides those conversations. I think that'll just be such a blessing. It's been a blessing to meet and chat with you today.
Laura Dugger: (51:15 - 51:32) Well, I've loved every minute. And you may already be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight or discernment. And so, as my final question for you today, Hunter, what is your Savvy Sauce?
Hunter Beless: (51:34 - 52:28) Oh, you try to nail me down to something practical. It's funny, Laura, because I feel like I resist practical. And I'm not sure what it is about me that resists practical other than maybe sometimes I felt like bound in by people's practical advice. Does that make sense? And so, for me, here's my practical advice. My practical advice is to allow all of your practices or your practicals to be informed by the principles of the text. So, allow the principles of scripture to inform your practice. And that's not very practical, but I think the only practical way you can do that is to get your face in your Bible and to really seek to know and love God through his word. And then he will certainly help inform your practice.
Laura Dugger: (52:30 - 56:34) I think that's actually more practical than you realize. That is wonderful. And Hunter, your joy and your laugh are just contagious. And you're clearly gifted from the Lord as a clear, articulate communicator. And it blesses so, many people in so many generations because you are able to filter in the truth and then communicate it in a way that's able to be received. So, it's been so encouraging to sit under your teaching and be inspired to take this out and to hopefully begin in our home. But also, those good works, as we're called as older women, too. None of us are exempt, as you said. So, I've just thoroughly enjoyed being with you. Thank you for being my guest. Thank you so much for having me. It's been so fun.
One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.
This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.
Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.
Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.
First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.
You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Mar 09, 2026
Monday Mar 09, 2026
Hebrews 12:11 NIV “No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it"
*Transcription Below*
Jessica Smartt is the author of Come On Home, Memory-Making Mom and Let Them Be Kids. She graduated college with an English degree, a religion minor and a hankering to pour into kids. After teaching middle school literature for five years, she was promoted to her current position and dream job: wife, homeschooling mom, author, and Professional Encourager of Intentional Moms. She lives in sunny North Carolina on a family farm with horses, chickens, and an ever-increasing number of beloved cats. She and her husband, Todd, have three beautiful children. She loves to energize everyday moms to save childhood and build close-knit families. Jessica’s favorites include: bike rides, spinach quiche, a clean kitchen, being warm, national parks, and food that anyone else made. Connect with Jessica through Instagram or her website.
Thank you to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage
Questions and Topics We Cover:
- What questions can we ask ourselves as mothers to take inventory and get real about our capacity, health, and gifts?
- How can we purposefully make our home a place our family loves to be and we do too?
- Will you share a handful of your other favorite practical tips for building a strong family that we haven’t covered yet?
Other Episode Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce:
Making Family Memories with Jessica Smartt
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
*Transcription*
Music: (0:00 – 0:14)
Laura Dugger: (0:15 - 1:23) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
I'm thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, WinShape Marriage. Their weekend marriage retreats will strengthen your marriage while you enjoy the gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org.
My returning guest for today is Jessica Smartt. She has authored another brilliant book entitled, Come On Home: A Grace-Filled Guide to Raising a Family Who Loves (and Likes) Each Othe. You're not going to want to miss a minute of this episode because she answers every question with kindness and eternal wisdom, yet she still manages to share plenty of fun ideas and applicable tips.
Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Jessica.
Jessica Smartt: (1:25 - 1:28) Thanks so, much for having me. I'm excited about our conversation.
Laura Dugger: (1:29 - 1:44) Well, I've been looking so, forward to this, and it's been a few years since you were a guest on The Savvy Sauce, so, as you're looking back, can you just walk us through how your motherhood experience has changed from the early days to now currently?
Jessica Smartt: (1:46 - 3:36) Yeah, it has changed so, much, and I actually was thinking about this just on my own. God is so, good, and I don't know if everyone's experience is kind of like this. I look around and see very high-functioning young mothers, so, I'm thinking maybe not, but I just feel like those first couple years were such a struggle with a lot of mental illness and just anxiety, and probably that led into depression, too, and just feeling really overwhelmed. I do feel like a lot of it was sleep deprivation, which is a literal torture technique that armies use, so, I think just caring for my body better has actually been a huge thing, but also just God is just so, kind, and I think I mentioned in the book of just really early on having this moment where I thought I'm not any good to anybody, and I didn't fast-forward to see any of this, right? I didn't know how it was going to end. I just knew I felt terrible, and I couldn't function and overcome with anxiety, and everything was blurry and overwhelming, and so, to then fast-forward and see personally in my own life the rewards of my kids are doing well, and I like being a mom a lot, and professionally that I'm even writing about it is stunning, so, it's a real redemption story to me, and just proof that also God uses those pits because it was out of that that I was able to actually gain traction even on my blog sharing about my personal experience and loss and weakness. God used that, so, I'm really grateful.
Laura Dugger: (3:36 - 3:45) That's incredible to get just a little picture of that journey, and can you update us with your kids' ages now as of today?
Jessica Smartt: (3:45 - 3:59) Yes, so, I have a 16-year-old boy. Last week we were visiting college, and that is very weird, and then a 14-year-old boy and an 11-year-old daughter.
Laura Dugger: (4:00 - 4:19) Okay, wonderful. So, regardless of what phase we're in as parents, do you have any recommendations for questions that we can begin to ask ourselves so that we can take inventory and get real about our capacity and our health and our gifts?
Jessica Smartt: (4:20 - 7:00) Right, yes, so, in Come on Home, that's kind of how I kick it off because I say, you know, you can't have the family that if in order to have the family you want or the home you want, you have to be honest about what you actually have and what you're starting with, and so, part of that is taking inventory of yourself and your life, and that's not something we often stop to do in the chaos and busyness, so, I asked what your capacity is and really just trying to help mom just think through preaching to myself here, like all the things that are on our plate, and is there something on our plate that the Lord maybe is not calling us to or that doesn't correlate and match to what our really core values are in life, and those are hard questions to ask, but they actually bring a lot of relief to just be honest with yourself about what's happening in your life and coming before the Lord and saying, you know, I'd literally say, like, make a list of all the things that you're doing and look at it and see if you should take any off, and the list is, you know, stunningly long for a lot of us, but yeah, so, that's just capacity, just kind of thinking through where we are and what we actually have the bandwidth to do, and then I talk about health and actually asking, like, your husband, if you're married, you know, how would you like me to care for myself better? What's one thing that you like when I do? And a lot of times I think we're really surprised when we hear the things they appreciate or what they'd like us to do, and they might just be giving us a really wonderful gift to go invest in an area in our life that we've been overlooking. So, and then gifts, that's a really fun one, too, because I'm not you and you're not me, and we're not the listeners, but God has uniquely equipped all of us to be the mom and the homemaker, you know, in our particular callings.
So, saying, like, are you a good organizer? Are you, you know, the fun mom, right, that I wish I was and I'm not? Are you, you know, the adventurer mom? Are you the crafty mom? You know, God has given, do you cook well and, you know, enjoy that? And everybody has a gift, that you're, whether you're, you know, a soft place to land for your kids and a good listener, or you're, you know, more drill sergeant-y, like those firstborns tend to be, and that is me, so, that's why I can say that. But just thinking about, like, what skills and gifts did God give me to lead my family well? And so, that was just kind of the ground-tilling up work before you think through, like, how can we build the family that we really want with the life that we actually have and the person we really are?
Laura Dugger: (7:01 - 8:14) And I love, that was one of the aspects of the book that I just appreciated. You sprinkle all these insightful questions throughout, and it is really great to reflect on those with the Lord or with the journal or in conversation, but you're encouraging us repeatedly to get a long-term vision of this parenting journey. And so, it makes me think, my husband works with Chick-fil-A, and oftentimes he's encouraged to be careful not to just get caught up working in the business, but to pull back and work on the business, and it's actually better for everybody. And I just think as parents, we need that same reminder to kind of lift up our eyes, get a different view, and get above these urgent, incessant needs of today and look at where we're going. And I think the Bible speaks a lot to that with being prudent. And you challenge us with that long-term view to actually take an eternal view in parenting, which is inevitably going to impact how we steward our time and our decision making. So, can you speak to both of those?
Jessica Smartt: (8:16 - 10:23) Yeah, I mean, the eternal, the perspective, I think I said, you know, there's the Bible verse about you reap what you sow, and we think of it as like a cautionary warning. And it is, but it's also just a true statement of how life works, meaning what you invest in, and what you spend your time in, what you care about, what the things you're actually doing is where you're going to see growth. And so, if I am investing in my home, I'm going to see fruit in there. Now, of course, it's not a one-to-one, it's not a slot machine. So, you know, we don't know exactly what it's going to look like. And God is so, good to cover up even over the areas that we've done a bad job in. But in general, you can't expect to grow cucumbers if you've been planting tomatoes. Like what you've been planting in the ground is what's going to grow up. And so, that's just like, even though it's kind of like fancy wordy language, it's always just a good reminder to me to think like, what am I actually spending my time doing?
I want a family that, like I was a recipient of, that's warm and inviting and you want to be around. And in order to get that, like you have to plant it. And so, that's a lot of being present as a mom and which is so, hard, very hard. But I just wanted to not lay a burden on moms, but really just encourage them like, do those things that are going to reap the life you actually want in the long term. And of course, you mentioned the word eternity, that's planning, building disciples. And so, that is a very long road. You know, you're not going to always see the fruit of that, you know, immediately. But keeping our eye on, you know, I want to raise kids that are living out the calling that God has placed on their lives and are going out into this world to be truth and light. Like, oh my goodness, so, many hard, boring conversations that you have to have, but you have to, like that's, that's part of the equation.
Laura Dugger: (10:26 - 11:35) I think that even that piece is with discipline too, which is one of my least favorite parts of parenting. I don't know if others relate to that, but a verse that I find so, encouraging is Hebrews 12:11, that "no discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful later on. However, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it." And so, I love that encouragement you're giving to a parent for the long view, and you bring up your family of origin. You write so much about this gratitude you have for your parents and something you wrote really stuck with me where you say someone was always home, both physically and metaphorically, someone was paying attention. So, Jessica, what caution do you want to share with any parents today who may be tempted to let go a little too early, a little too soon and too young, whether that's with technology or even just being physically present?
Jessica Smartt: (11:36 - 14:25) I think it's just so, important for moms and dads to receive their instructions, not from the world, but from the Lord, because the culture right now is okaying and even encouraging parenting that is not godly parenting. We have so many distractions and we are pulled towards our phones, towards our own personal growth and flourishing, which is okay. You know, of course we want us to be healthy as we just mentioned, but at the expense of the kids that God has put in our lives, that is what, that is the messaging you're going to receive from the world. If you're hanging out with people who do not have a biblical worldview, that is going to be how they're spending their time. And it's not a judgment statement. It's just, it is an observation that they, that is not, the focus is not, I'm going to sit and, you know, maybe at one point culturally years and years ago, it really was more family oriented, but it is not anymore. It just simply is not. And, you know, it masquerades under that as, you know, oh, we're all going to the soccer game together and we're going to go watch the gymnastics performance or whatever it is. But that, that is not always true discipling of your children.
That's kind of being present in a cursory way and not truly and really, to really pay attention and really be present with your kids is going to look vastly different than what the rest of the world is doing. And if it doesn't, you got to check. And I, I'm saying this as absolutely of myself, you know, there are moms that are just on their phone, and I can do that as well. I've had to put in, we can talk about specifics, but I've had to put in like specific things in my, in my actual phone, you know, and in my life parameters and guidelines so that I'm not doing that. But no one in the world is going to tell you not to, that's normal to just be stuck on your phone as a mom, as a kid, whatever. And so, a like, where are you getting your voice? That's saying how to parent, who are the voices that are speaking into your life? Are you listening to older and wiser mentors? Are you reading really good books? Are you putting yourself in the word first thing in the morning or are you just floating around with whatever culture says to do? And I don't mean to sound judgy here because I am deeply convicted even as I'm speaking this of like, am I living this? I'm not always, it's very, very hard. But I just think we first, first step is, you know, to orient yourself to the Lord and how would he have you parent? Not what is everyone else okay with doing? Cause it's going to look very different.
Laura Dugger: (14:26 - 16:54) Okay. I love that with kind of the emphasis on; it does require a sacrifice from us with that quality and quantity time. And it makes me think on page 38 of your book, you encourage us to take the time to know each child, helping them find their passion, abilities, gifts, and interests. And that really does bless both the child and the parent. And now a brief message from our sponsor.
Friends, I'm excited to share with you today's sponsor, WinShape Marriage. Do you feel like you need a weekend away with your spouse and a chance to grow in your relationship together at the same time? WinShape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that provides weekend marriage retreats to help couples grow closer together in every season and stage of life. From premarital to parenting to the emptiness phase, there is an opportunity for you. WinShape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured, even when it seems things are going smoothly, so that they're stronger if they do hit a bump along their marital journey. These weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of WinShape Retreat, perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham, and Chattanooga. While you're there, you will be well fed, well nurtured, and well cared for.
During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication, and more. I've stayed on site at WinShape before, and I can attest to their generosity, food, and content. You will be so grateful you went. To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, winshapemarriage.org/savvy. That's W-I-N-S-H-A-P-E marriage.org/savvy. S-A-V-V-Y. Thanks for your sponsorship.
So, Jessica, what has this looked like in your home? And can you give us some ideas?
Jessica Smartt: (16:56 - 19:19) Yeah, I just think it is so, easy for us to have our own expectations of what our kids are, and even to speak that over them from the minute they come out of the womb, whether it's, oh, we've just pinned them as to be this, or it's something that we are, or something that we want them to be. But instead to look and see like, who is this actual child that's been created? And I thought of, you know, years and years ago, my son was like, itching to do something, you know, they get to be like nine, 10. And they start feeling like, you know, they need something other than mom in the house. And we were kind of praying about it and thinking it through. And he said, “I think I really would like to play soccer.”
And at the time, we were pretty, pretty committed into the baseball world. And I was like, no, you know, I had friendships with the parents, and we liked the coach, and we were already there. And soccer was this whole thing I didn't even know, you know, I was like, no. And honestly, I waited for a year or two. But now my both my boys are in a semi travel league. It's not like all out driving all across the country, but they've been able to play at a higher level. And they're doing amazing. It's clearly what they were meant to do. And I couldn't miss out on that just by being like, no, you know, that's not what you do.
Like, you know, so, just being open as a parent to really like, what are they good at? And it may not be what you thought it may not be what you are good at. My daughter loves to make a giant mess in the kitchen, giant and cook. And oh, my goodness, it is very hard for me because I'm like a keep it clean. Don't use all the ingredients. But I've been convicted to really, you know, let her explore these gifts. I have a friend whose daughter is making these elaborate birthday cakes. I mean, like the most crazy food network kind of thing. And I saw it and thought, I know what that kitchen must have looked like when you let her do that. That was a lot of days and afternoons of you letting her waste the flour and make a big mess. But the fruit is, it's incredible. And, so, yeah, sacrificing what we want to let them grow into, you know, and God is so, good.
Like if we don't know what it is, pray with your kid, like you, what did you, what is your thing? What do you think God's made you to do? We, you know, need an activity. What, what, let's ask God, like what he wants you to do. I've never prayed a prayer like that that hasn't been answered and never.
Laura Dugger: (19:20 - 19:47) Oh, that's so, good. I mean, we think of for friendship for ourselves or with our children or activities that they want to do, just hopefully that's what we keep being reminded of is bring it to the Lord rather than seeking out those voices and culture and see what his perfect plan is. But you also write an entire chapter on the power of time. So, will you share some of your applicable wisdom here?
Jessica Smartt: (19:49 - 22:15) Yes. And you know, don't mind me while I actually get out the book, because even though you wrote it, sometimes you're like, what exactly did I say? Um, but thinking through like activities that our family has signed up for, as I mentioned, you know, I was kind of like connected in that baseball mindset. And so, was it actually the right thing for my kids? Maybe or maybe not. And so, I talked through like at questions to ask, you know, as a husband and wife about where our family's going and what activities our kids are doing, which is a giant question today.
I don't think parents are thoughtful enough about what they're signing up for and what they're doing. And you get, you know, mid-November and your schedule is completely packed and your kids having meltdowns and you're never eating dinner together. And you're like, how did we get to this life? But it was a little bit of like, not quite following the path ahead mentally to see what it would look like. And I would just encourage anybody right now that it's not too late to rearrange, even if you have to quit something, even if it costs a deposit, even if you have to back out, like we are not as trapped as we think we are. And if you're doing something in your family that's not healthy, or, you know, it's not benefiting you stop, like no one's gonna, you know, anyway.
So, as you're thinking through activities, I talked about the interest question, which means like, is your kid actually there? Or is it like you that's kind of getting more out of this? And then I talked about the mealtime question. And maybe we'll get to this, but family meals are so important. They really are. Even if it is, you know, not hours of sitting there with candlelight, whatever, just to have that checkpoint together. So, is your activity schedule, allowing you to uphold whatever your values are with meals? I'm not gonna tell you what they are, but is that what you want, really? And then the whole family question.
You know, I've seen a lot, and we've lived it too, of like the younger kid being getting drug around to the older talented kid’s activities. That's really a hard one, right? And so, I'm not saying don't do that. Sometimes families are gonna just look like that for seasons. But I do think it's worth stopping to say, what is it like right now to be that youngest child? What are they going through? And am I being kind to them? You know, are there switches we can kind of make in the family? Because it's, you know, the family is not about one person and their talents. It's a holistic, healthy, functioning unit.
Laura Dugger: (22:18 - 23:21) Absolutely. So, even, I hear you saying, evaluating, again, kind of taking inventory. What is on the family plate? How is that affecting every human in the unit of the family? Is that taking us where we want to go? Just being, I love how you use the word thoughtful. Just being full of thoughts of this and taking it to the Lord of what's the wise thing to do. And for all of us, I think with that time question, it does lead us to the question of, who are we spending the most time with? Because that will significantly impact our lives. It'll impact our children as well. So, do you have any other, I love those questions. Any other lessons that you've learned? I'm thinking especially related to activities and youth sports come to mind because our culture really has gone to the side of idolizing it and catering everything else around that. So, do you have any other wisdom to share on that topic?
Jessica Smartt: (23:23 - 25:48) Yeah, I mean, I'll just share. Personally, we have decided to have our kids play at a level that is probably sub what their talent could be. And I don't know. I guess time will tell. If they look back and they were like, mom, I really, you know, could have, but I have a hunch that they won't. I more often am seeing in my friends and stuff that it's like, they get into high school, and the kids are kind of starting to feel burnt out. Or they're like, you know, it's so, hard right now to be, I mean, not even a professional, let's say soccer player, but at college, it's like unheard of. It's the elite, elite. And so, it's like, why are you doing this anyway?
And we've had several opportunities to compete at higher levels and try out for things that we have said no to, you know, because it would require being gone more nights, it would require tons of time in the car, it would be families away on the weekends. So, we have some of that. I think it's important when you have boys, especially to let them have an outlet to compete as we, if you know, I homeschool as you do. And so, if you have a homeschooled teenage boy, they should probably be doing something right. So, I am not saying sit at home and, you know, play Monopoly every night as a family. But, we have chosen to prioritize other things.
And so, so far, I am super grateful for that. We had a season where we were way too busy with baseball. And it was the boys were like 10 and 12. And Monday through Thursday, one of them had a different we were never eating together Monday through Thursday, Saturdays, we were taking off different directions. I could never understand why we had to drive two hours to play a team. I'm like, there's so, many baseball players right in this neighborhood. Can we not find a team? And God use that it's fine. But, but I don't I don't envy that season.
And I'm really grateful for some of the breathing room that we've had. And also, I would say my son, my oldest son is a gifted guitar player and singer. And he would not be able to do that. If we were 110% in one of those other sports, he would not have any time to even pursue those other interests. You just never know. You know, I think white space and mental white space and time, I talk about this and let them be kids is so important for just developing as a person. No one flourishes well with a completely jam-packed schedule. And so, how would we expect our children to, you know, that is good.
Laura Dugger: (25:48 - 26:02) That is so, wise. And how can we strategically connect with our kids so that they do feel seen, and known and loved and liked?
Jessica Smartt: (26:03 - 27:54) Yes. I mean, that feels overwhelming, doesn't it? But and I talked through in the book kind of each one of those categories. But I know this is going to sound cliche, but I would just say a like recognizing that if a kid doesn't feel like you like them, they're going to notice that. And so, it doesn't matter all the extra things what you're getting them for Christmas, and where you're they're taking them if they really genuinely feel like you're kind of annoyed with them. They know that.
And that's, that's not great. So, I would say first step before you get into any practicals and pancake breakfast and all that is just like, if you are feeling that way to your kid, a don't feel guilty. It's natural. We all have that at times. And be come before God and just say, these are the feelings I'm dealing with. Can you please help me here? And again, to quote myself, I've never prayed that prayer and it not been answered. God has always shown up in some way. And so, often what it looks like I talk about in being liked is just like genuinely working on something that you have in common.
I think my parents did that so, well with us. And it wasn't the same thing because my siblings and I are all different. But they really worked to always find common ground and always have that relationship bucket full, right? My mom is like big on, you know, don't make too many withdrawals unless you have made a lot of deposits. And they lived that for years and years and years of pouring into us and genuinely connecting with us. So, way harder to do than to say, but that's our goal. And I do actually have a lot of specific ideas in the book of random ways you can love your kids, love languages and all of that. But yeah, asking God for help.
Laura Dugger: (27:55 - 28:09) And sometimes it's just helpful to hear what somebody else does, even if that's not exactly how it'll apply to our situation. But can you just give one example of a way that you use your child's love language, maybe both for one of your sons and your daughter?
Jessica Smartt: (28:11 - 29:33) Well, I've learned a lot about my middle child, and he loves the comfort things in life. So, if I see him struggling with school or something, I can bring him, you know, yogurt parfait or he likes coffee. So, we give our kids coffee. Don't sue us anyway. But if I make him a cup of coffee, oh, you can just see it in his face. It's like, oh, mom loves me, you know? He's one that even like if I go make his bed, he'll appreciate that. Not every kid is like that. But just kind of seeing and noticing the things that he likes.
That's been kind of something that we do. And then my daughter loves to tell stories, long, long stories. And I'm working so hard to not only like, I want to listen, but also, you know, teach her how to condense. Because Jordan Peterson says, don't let your kid become someone that is, you know, not pleasant to be around. If you're struggling with something, someone else will, too. And she's an absolute delight. I mean, truly. But so, just listening to her stories and kind of working on the art of conversation. My mom always said, play tennis, conversation tennis. So, you hit the ball, and then I hit the ball back to you. So, we're working on that, you know?
Laura Dugger: (29:35 - 30:05) Absolutely. That reciprocity is huge. If you take turns asking questions, it reminds me, a previous guest, Jodi Berndt, had also said, in addition to that, let's also teach our children how to serve the ball. So, to initiate that, I just thought that that's so good. I'll work that in. Jessica, how can we purposefully make our home a place our family loves to be? And we do, too.
Jessica Smartt: (30:07 - 31:52) I have been learning so, much about this in this stage of life, you know, in my 40s. And again, it's hard when you have little kids. So, I think you can probably say across the board, it's going to look different when you're raising little kids to have a warm and wonderful inviting home than it is in your later years when your kids are older, and you have more time. But I would just challenge moms. Well, I look back and I think, if I hadn't been so, stretched thin and put unrealistic expectations on myself in other areas of life, I maybe could have invested in my home a little bit more. And the thing I have learned is that having a home that's peacefully run just reaps so, many benefits for a woman and her family.
And I am behind the curve, I feel like, on this. But as I have learned to organize my space and really pour myself into my home, not feeling like it's a waste of time to organize a pantry. It is amazing how it blesses my family. People notice it. And it's hard to even articulate it because you wouldn't even think that if you clean out a closet, it's going to bless your family. But it really actually does. And my husband benefits from it. He's not even like a strict, everything has to be clean. But when I've worked on something in the home, he sees it and notices it and appreciates it. So, God has just been teaching me so, much about what it looks like to really be like a homemaker, a godly homemaker and pour myself into my home. And I have reaped so much joy and peace from living out that role and calling in my life.
Laura Dugger: (31:53 - 32:23) That was one of the quotes I wrote down that observation that you made on page 142. And I'll just quote you, "when I do something to invest in our home, every single member of our family brightens." And I exactly great and you gave practical ways of how we can do that. And I also like it because it gives a little freedom because we're one of the family members too. And I think we brighten when we get that space in order.
Jessica Smartt: (32:24 - 33:06) Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. Again, back to our earlier like cultural, cultural narrative versus biblical. There's like a, there's a lot of messaging about that it doesn't matter to really invest in your home and your family. And that's just not how God made the world to operate. So, I would challenge moms that even if they are doing what the rest of everyone is doing, and it's like, ah, it looks like a bomb went off in here. Like, um, you know, that may not be how God is calling us to live with a giant disclaimer that there are seasons of life that it truly does look like a bomb went off. And that is okay. We are doing good gospel work, raising children.
Laura Dugger: (33:07 - 33:46) Absolutely. But then also I think Proverbs 31 sometimes gets a bad rap, but really there's a lot of freedom in it for women because it is how the Lord created us, but she does look well to the ways of her household. And I think that just summed up, she's one of the members of the household, but so is everybody else. And that's one thing that can bless everyone, but you are just full and abundant with ideas, and you have an appendix in the book full of resources to help us maintain and take care of all our responsibilities. So, will you share a few of those ideas with us?
Jessica Smartt: (33:47 - 34:46) Um, yes, I, and maybe this is my homeschool mom speaking, but I have just learned so, much from other good books. I have, it's truly changed my life just in whether it's talking about personal health or discipline or marriage or prayer or my home. So, the thing I'm really actually most proud about in the appendix is my list of recommended resources. And it's just all the books that have impacted me as a mom and also impacted my writing too. Um, I'll, I'll mention one. I think, uh, I don't know if everyone has read A Praying Life, but that has completely transformed not only my walk with the Lord, but my prayer life. And I've implemented, um, it's Paul Miller, I believe his idea for prayer cards. And I do that every morning. Um, it has been the sweetest thing, and I've really reaped a lot of blessing out of kind of modeling what he sets up in that book. So, that's just one example. If you haven't read A Praying Life, you should definitely go read it.
Laura Dugger: (34:47 - 35:20) That's awesome. And I don't know if this ties in, but I'm just remembering back one of the podcasts that I heard you speak on. You share your definition of godly self-care, and you say that it's whatever helps you do your job well and not at the sacrifice of others. So, can you elaborate with some encouragement for how we can make sure that we don't go to either side, that we don't neglect ourselves, but we also continue with this merrymaking for our family.
Jessica Smartt: (35:21 - 38:22) Right. Yes. And, um, that definition, I always want to be like, you know, the end part about not to the sacrifice of someone else. When I had a young, I think I had two kids and my baby was six weeks old. I had a very qualified, loving teenage girl. Watch my two kids while my husband and I left for literally an hour to go to five guys and get burgers. And my youngest was not thrilled. He did not prefer the bottle. So, in some ways his life was unsettled for a brief moment, but that was okay. So, I think everyone knows when I say, um, you know, not to the sacrifice of everyone else.
What I'm saying is like looking at the family and certainly we shouldn't be like living this plush and well-watered life and someone else's withering away. So, it's a general statement of, you know, that it would be too far, as you said, on the extreme of, and I do think that happens honestly, because we're all self-centered. It's not that we don't love our kids. We're just trained to care about ourselves. But many women struggle on the other side of, um, maybe neglecting some areas in their life that could truly help them to be better wives and better moms. And, um, it's a really fun activity to think like, what, how could I change my life a little bit in a way that I would be a better wife and mom.
And I'm not meaning that to justify any sort of behavior that, you know, you want to do, because you certainly could use that for almost anything. Um, but really to think like, how can I be the best mom and wife that I could possibly be? And it might mean making some, giving yourself some breathing room. And I would also encourage women to, um, one of the best uses for that time is to work on your marriage because there's direct overflow into the family. And so, best case, I gave some ideas of like family adventures that can kind of fill your cup along with everyone else. And I would say maybe next best or equal would-be husband, wife stuff where you can check out, connect, and you're overflowing and ready to enter back into family life.
And then finally things that it's certainly fine to just step out and find those things that are life giving to you, but just trying to keep an eye on, you know, how is everyone in the family doing? And there might be seasons. I think of my mom caring for her mom who had dementia. She wasn't really well watered in that season. She was, she was quite depleted, but that's what the Lord had been calling her to do at that period of time. Um, and we often were like, mom, you've got to like, we thought she did too much, you know? Um, but looking back, I think she really is so grateful that she laid down her life. There's not regret. And so, I'm like, well, maybe she was right all along. I don't know.
Laura Dugger: (38:23 - 38:58) Good though. The both and to have seasons of that, where we can refresh so, that when we go into a season where it's a little bit prior, we can be serving hopefully still from the overflow. But you also just blew me away in the book with your knowledge on roots. And the subtitle of that chapter is "recipes, relics, relatives, and other things that keep kids grounded." So, will you just teach us a little bit more about roots and share how it applies to building a strong family?
Jessica Smartt: (39:00 - 40:51) Yes, I would like to shout out to my husband who is in the landscaping business. So, he helped me. I was like, hey, can you please give me some fun facts about roots? And he was thrilled. But um, one thing I mentioned is that most plant problems are caused by root issues. And gosh, have I seen that in real life, like even as an adult, you notice somebody that is carrying still issues that they're working through from their childhood. And so, what a gift we're giving our kids by giving them those strong, good roots and a healthy, you know, childhood to enter into adulthood, not crippled by things, but that they can give out of strength.
And my husband and I feel like, you know, although our families of origin were not perfect, we lived that story, we were able to go out in strength, and not, you know, carrying all this emotional baggage. That's what I would like to give my kids. So, um, but then yeah, at the end, I share that the most integral roots to the plant's wellbeing are the ones right near the surface. And I thought, what a kind of cool parallel that even if we, you know, I've shared about my experience, but someone listening may not have good roots, and they really might struggle with having support and partnership. But they can give a new story to their kids. They can give them the roots that they did not have through the Lord's strength. And I have found friends that I'm literally seeing them do it. But they are they are crippled. And you know, in therapy and dealing with all this trauma, but they're passing a different story on to their kids. And how cool is that? I have so much admiration for that. It seems like it's something that really only can be done through the Lord's strength, but he does it. He writes those stories.
Laura Dugger: (40:51 - 41:11) And he seems to delight in redemption stories. So, I appreciate you sharing that. And I'd love to continue kind of this idea time. Will you just share another handful of your favorite practical tips for building a strong family that are topics we haven't covered yet?
Jessica Smartt: (41:13 - 43:16) Well, I would start with one thing I have seen huge rewards is if we do sort of like a secret Santa idea, and we actually do it also before Valentine's Day and do you know, your cupids arrow, whatever, because it just changes your whole mindset when you're suddenly thinking, how can I, you know, love this person in my family, you're in a better mood. And so, we divide up names. And then we also do like acts of service. And that is just such a fun, like low keyway to kind of get your kids to think about loving their siblings instead of being annoyed by them. We have loved doing game nights, and we're not like big game people. But finding ones that I think my encouragement would be that it doesn't have to be like this long three-hour thing.
If your family's not into that, we've done like minute to win at games that I just pulled up online. We have a lot of games that are like, no mental stress. They're very easy, like Slopsy. If anybody has not played Slopsy, they need to pick it up. It's you could play it if you were extremely tired, which I often am at the end of the day. So, to find some like quip, there's also what do you mean family edition. And that is a fun one. And I have some other games listed in the book too, for readers who are interested. So, those would be two. We also do like one-on-one activities with the kids. And I always thought you had to do it like really, really regularly. But I would just give the encouragement that some is better than none. And so, even if it's only a couple times a year, kids just soak that up. And it doesn't need to be, you know, this whole long thing, it could be like, hey, you need some new winter pants. Let's get a Chick-fil-A milkshake beforehand. You know, just to kind of keep your eyes open for those activities and opportunities.
Laura Dugger: (43:17 - 43:47) Guess what? We are no longer an audio only podcast. We now have video included as well. If you want to view the conversation each week, make sure you watch our videos. We're on YouTube and you can access videos or find answers to any of your other questions about the podcast when you visit thesavvysauce.com. Can you also share this genius idea about something that you put on the notes app of your phone?
Jessica Smartt: (43:48 - 44:50) Yeah, so, I talked about the power of stories. Kids love hearing stories from our, you know, youth or young adulthood or even, you know, married years, whatever. So, I got in the habit of sharing a story with my daughter before bed. And of course, at night, you aren't always on your A game. So, I just have a note app on my phone to track different things that I might want to tell her. And my encouragement was that it doesn't need to be, we think it needs to be like this long, significant story, but even just little tidbits of things she has been delighted to hear over and over. You know, just like a passing, you know, anecdote that didn't seem to me to be too pregnant with meaning, but she just ate it up and loved hearing about all of the different things. So, yeah, that was just again, it didn't cost a lot. It's not hard, but just a little thing that kind of connected us and also connected her to a deeper sense of like, here's your roots of the people that raised you.
Laura Dugger: (44:53 - 45:36) I loved that idea because my daughters or our daughters will just catch us off guard and say, hey, share a story about us share a story about when you were little or when I was little. And so, I love your system that you have in place that when that idea comes to me, I can jot it down. And then when they ask unexpectedly, I'm prepared. So, thought that was wonderful. And you've written an entire book on memories. So, I'll link to our previous episode where we talk about that. And we dove into that topic. But you've updated your ideas in this book and come up with the most epic list of memory making ideas ever. So, could you just share a couple of those to give us a taste of what you include?
Jessica Smartt: (45:37 - 46:43) Yes, so, I think my favorite was at the end the chapter talking about surprises because I love the idea of surprising your kid. And when I talked about when I was little, my grandparents showed up at our school in their RV to take us camping. So, just thinking through like just different, a lot of those are like the big, you know, birthday or vacation or Christmas gifts. But even if you did it just one time, that's like a that can be like a core memory in you know, your kid’s life.
When I was researching this, for the appendix, I reached out to a lot of my readers, and they had the most fun ideas of just creative family memory making things. And one that I remembered that I thought, I don't know if I have the guts to do this, but I think that this family came up with it during COVID. So, they were a little bit bored, and they packed a picnic and went to a stop sign. And when they got to one, they would roll a dice to see which direction they would turn until they ended up at a good picnic spot. She said it was harder than you would think.
Laura Dugger: (46:45 - 47:02) That's hilarious. I love the creativity and that element of surprise. That is so, good. Well, I hope that everybody goes out to get a copy of your amazing book. But where else would you want to direct us to connect online after this chat?
Jessica Smartt: (47:03 - 47:15) Yeah, definitely come say hi on Instagram. I'm Jessica Smartt with two Ts. And you can tell me what you enjoyed about our conversation. And I'm usually every so, often we'll check the messages, but I do get back to you.
Laura Dugger: (47:16 - 47:34) Love it. We'll add links to that in the show notes for today's episode. And Jessica, you're already familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical. And so, my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Jessica Smartt: (47:36 - 48:09)So, what has changed my life, I really think is, and this isn't like the most exciting thing, but walking every single day, and I walk with my weighted vest. So, I look like every other 40-year-old woman that is out there. We have a little trail around our farm. So, I, it's, I honestly have like seen so, much change in my mental health and physical health. And I know they say that on all of these, you know, resources and stuff. And I never thought it was true. But it really has changed my life just to walk every day.
Laura Dugger: (48:11 - 52:21) Amen, sister, I totally agree with that. That is so, well said. You are just a brilliant and faithful and godly and humble woman. You're gifted with your communication with your words in this conversation and in the books that you've shared with the world. And I am just so grateful for you, Jessica. Thank you so much for being my guest today. Well, thank you for those kind words.
One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.
This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.
Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.
Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.
First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.
You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Mar 02, 2026
Monday Mar 02, 2026
1 Timothy 4:8 NIV “For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.”
*Transcription Below*
Brian Smith, author of The Christian Athlete: Glorifying God in Sports, is a staff member with Athletes in Action and a cross-country coach at Lowell High School. A former collegiate runner at Wake Forest University, he earned a BA in Communications and Journalism before completing his MA in Theology and Sports Studies at Baylor University’s Truett Theological Seminary. Brian lives in Lowell, MI with his wife and three children. You can find him on Twitter @BrianSmithAIA.
Ed Uszynski is an author, speaker, and sports minister with over three decades’ experience discipling college and professional athletes. With a heart for reconciliation and justice, he also works as a racial literacy consultant and marriage conference speaker, blending Biblical wisdom with practical living in the midst of complex cultural realities. He has two theological degrees from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and a PhD in American Culture Studies from Bowling Green State University. He and his wife Amy have four children and live in Xenia, Ohio.
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka
Questions and Topics We Cover:
-
What is one of kids’ greatest game day complaints?
-
Is it true that young athletic success is a predictor of adult athletic success?
-
What are a few tips for instilling a heart of gratitude in our young athlete, rather than entitlement?
Related Savvy Sauce Episode:
230 Intentional Parenting in All The Stages with Dr. Rob Rienow
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
*Transcription*
Music: (0:00 – 0:11)
Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:51) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka.
Owned and operated by the Bertschi family, Sam Leman and Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over Central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at lemangm.com.
Brian Smith and Ed Uszynski are my guests for today.
They are co-authors of this recent amazing book entitled, A Way Game, A Christian Parents Guide to Navigating Youth Sports. And from the very beginning, I was captivated, even with one of the endorsements from Matt Martens, who's the president and CEO of Awana, and he summed it up this way, A Way Game provides a much needed perspective shift on one of the most sacred idols in our culture, youth sports. So, Brian and Ed are all for youth sports, and yet you're going to hear there's a different way to approach it than what we've been trained in culture.
And they're going to share some wonderful and very practical insights. I can't wait to share this with you. Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Ed and Brian.
Ed Uszynski & Brian Smith: (1:51 - 1:54) Thanks for having us, Laura. Yeah, good to be here, Laura.
Laura Dugger: (1:54 - 2:04) So, excited about this chat. And will the two of you just start us off by sharing your family's stage of life and your involvement in sports?
Brian Smith: (2:05 - 3:29) Yeah, there could be a lot on the back end of that question. I'll start with sports, then get into family. I've been involved in sports my entire life, played every sport imaginable growing up, got cut from just about every single sport my freshman year of high school, ended up running track and cross country because it was the only sports that you could not get cut from at my high school.
And I ended up being pretty good at it by the time I was a senior, won some state championships, ended up getting a scholarship to run at Wake Forest University. So, I did that for four years right out of college. I coached a little bit collegiately.
Soon after that, I joined staff with a sports ministry called Athletes in Action that Ed and I have a combined 50 years with Athletes in Action. And really, that's been my life ever since. I've been ministering to college and pro athletes, discipling them, helping them figure out what does that actually look like to integrate faith in sport.
Even today, I live in Grand Rapids, Michigan. I coach high school cross country while I'm still on staff with Athletes in Action. I have a middle school Bible study that I run on Wednesday mornings.
Been married to my wife, who I actually met in high school. She was a distance runner too, and she ran at Wisconsin. So, we've been married for 20 years.
We have three kids, a high schooler, a middle schooler, and an elementary schooler who are all involved in sport at some level, some way, shape, or form.
Laura Dugger: (3:30 - 3:34) Wow, that's incredible. Thank you, Brian. And Ed, what about you?
Ed Uszynski: (3:34 - 5:04) Well, my story is very parallel to Brian's, just different sports and some different numbers. Just tack on 15 years. Yeah, I was a basketball player.
Grew up on the west side of Cleveland with a high school football coach. My dad was, but I was a basketball player. I played at high levels all the way through my 20s, got to play overseas.
I mean, this was a long time ago, but I got everything I could out of that sport. And as soon as I graduated from college, though, I started to work with that Athletes in Action ministry that Brian mentioned. So, I've been working with college and professional athletes for 34 years now.
And same, coached at different levels, have four kids. Amy and I have been married for 26 years. We have four kids, three are in college, and one's in ninth grade, who has a game this afternoon, actually.
So, we've just been going to games and have been involved in going to sports stuff for the last 20 years with our kids. And really what happened with Brian, and I is that we looked up a decade ago and realized this youth sports thing was a fast train that was moving in directions that we weren't used to ourselves, even though we've been around sports our whole life. It's like, there's something different happening now.
And then thinking about it as Christians, like, how do we do this well as Christ followers? We don't want to separate from it. We don't want to just go for the ride. How do we do this as Christian people? And that's what got us talking about it and eventually led to this book.
Laura Dugger: (5:05 - 5:23) Well, the book was easy to read and incredible. And I'd like to start there where you begin, even where you go back before going forward. So, when you're looking back, what are the factors at play that changed youth sports over time?
Ed Uszynski: (5:26 - 6:17) Well, I'll say this and then Brian, maybe you jump in and throw a couple of them out there. I mean, youth sports is a $40 billion industry today, which is wild to think about. It's four times how much money gets spent on the NFL, which is just staggering.
I can't even hardly believe that that's true, but it is. And it's really just in the last 20 years that that's happened. I mean, 50 years ago, you couldn't have had the youth sport industrial complex, as we refer to it.
You couldn't have had it. There were a bunch of things that had to happen culturally, as is true with any new movement or any paradigm shift that happens in culture. You've got to have certain things be true all at the same time that make it possible.
So, Brian, what were a couple of those? Again, I'll throw it over to you. There's six of them that we talk about in the book. And I think it's really fascinating because I'm a history guy.
Brian Smith: (6:18 - 8:40) Yeah. And we can obviously double click on any of these, Laura, that you want to, but we talk about how the college admissions process became an avenue where youth sports parents saw, man, if we can get our kids involved in some extracurriculars and kind of tag on high level athlete to their resume, it actually helps with the college admissions process. And so even the idea of college scholarships became an opportunity for youth sports parents to get their kids involved.
And then, yeah, maybe sports can actually get them into college. We talk about the economic shifts that happen, the rise of safetyism and helicopter parenting. ESPN was a massive one in 1979.
This thing called ESPN starts, and we get 24-7 coverage of sports, which they started exploring even early on. What does it look like to give coverage to something like Little League World Series and saw that it didn't really matter how young the sport was, it's going to draw a national audience. And so, we've almost been discipled by ESPN really over the last 50 years with this consistent coverage.
We talk about the rise of the sports complex. This one to me is like the most fascinating out of all of them. In 1997, Disney decided to try to get more people to come to their parks.
They built a sports complex, just a massive sports complex. The idea was, are the older kids getting sick of the Buzz Lightyear ride and the Disney princesses? So, let's build a sports complex and maybe it'll be something else that will draw this older crowd too.
And what happened was, I mean, a lot of people started coming to it, but kind of the stake in the ground game changer was when 9-11 hit. In the months and years after that, they saw a lot less people go to their parks, but population actually doubled going to the sports complex, which is wild to think that people were afraid to go to theme parks for a vacation, but they were willing to travel across state lines to play sports at the Disney complex. So other cities and municipalities took notice of that.
Today, there's over 30,000 sports complexes like Disney's, which again, this is all adding to the system of the youth sports industrial complex. Did I miss any, Ed?
Ed Uszynski: (8:41 - 10:47) Well, no, and that's good. And the reason why we even put all that on the table, again, everybody kind of intuitively knows if you're involved, you know, something's not right. But I think it's important to say this is not normal what's happening.
It's a new normal that's been manufactured by a bunch of cultural trends, by a bunch of entrepreneurs that are doing what entrepreneurs do, and they're taking advantage of the moment, and they are generating lots of money around it. So, it should be encouraging. If it's not normal, that means actually there's a counter way of going about this.
There really can be reformation. But when all this money gets involved, the two biggest consequences that come out of that is our kids start getting treated like commodities, which they are, and we could talk the whole time even just about what that means. But maybe even more importantly, or what comes out of that is that beyond their physical development, most coaches and clubs are not paying any attention to their emotional development, their psychological development, their spiritual development, all the different aspects of what it means to be human that, frankly, used to be paid quite a bit more attention to in youth leagues when I was growing up.
I'm 58 now, so I was playing in the 70s and the 80s. And it used to be expected, at least at some level, even among non-Christian people, that you would take those aspects of a kid's life seriously. And now those just aren't prioritized.
And so, what do we do about that? Again, that's kind of our whole point is, well, as Christian people, we're really supposed to be our kid's first discipler anyways. And part of that role and part of taking on that identity is that we would be asking, what is God trying to do in the wholeness of their life, the entirety of their life, even in the context of sports?
So again, I don't want to get ahead of myself here, but that's why we're trying to poke into that to say, oh, we could actually make change. We may not change the whole system. In fact, we won't. Most of us won't be expected to do that, but we can make significant change in our corner of the bleachers and what happens with our kids.
Laura Dugger: (10:48 - 11:05) That's good. And just like you said, to double-click on a few places, first of all, real quick, the 30,000 number, I remember that shocking me in the book, but I'm forgetting now, is that worldwide, the amount of sports complexes or is that just in America?
Brian Smith: (11:05 - 11:06) That's domestically in the US.
Laura Dugger: (11:07 - 11:52) Yeah. That is staggering. And then one other piece, all of this history was new to me as you brought it all together, but it was also fascinated.
This is from page 32. I'll just read your quote. The American youth sports ball began rolling when a British movement fusing spiritual development with physical activity made its way across the Atlantic Ocean at the turn of the last century.
And Ed, that's kind of what you were touching on, that they were mixing, I'm sure, spiritual, psychological discipleship, physical. Can you elaborate more on what was happening and where it originated? Because we've come very far from our origins.
Ed Uszynski: (11:53 - 13:18) Yeah. And there's been a bunch of really great books written about this topic called muscular Christianity. This idea, like you just said, Laura, of wedding physical activity through sports with our spiritual development and expecting and anticipating that somebody that was taking care of their body and that was engaging in sport activity, that was the closest thing to godliness.
That opened up the door for you to also be developing spiritually. And there was an expectation that both of those are going on at the same time. A bunch of criticism about that movement, but it was taken seriously.
The YMCA is actually a huge byproduct of the muscular Christianity movement. The Young Men's Christian Association created space for sports and for athletic activity to take place under the banner of you're also going to grow spiritually as you're doing this. So again, that was a hundred years ago.
And that's not really what AAU stands for today. The different clubs and leagues that we get involved in just don't talk that way anymore. Of course, culture just in general has shifted away from sort of a Judeo-Christian ethic guiding a North Star for us.
Even if we're not Christian people, that used to be more of a North Star. That's gone now. And so, it really is not expected in sports anymore.
Brian Smith: (13:18 - 13:55) And what we're saying is we cannot expect organizations to own that process for our kids. We can't outsource the discipleship of our kids to the youth sports industrial complex or the YMCA or the AAU. It really does start with us as Christian parents to be the primary discipler of our kids.
And there is a way to take what's happening on the field or the court or the pool and turn it into really amazing discipleship opportunities. But it means, and Ed is starting to tease this out, it means we need to change our perspective as parents when we sit in the bleachers or on the sidelines of what we're looking for and even the conversations we have with our kids on the back end.
Laura Dugger: (13:57 - 15:29) And now a brief message from our sponsor.
Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka has been owned and operated by the Bertschi family for over 25 years. A lot has changed in the car business since Sam and Stephen's grandfather, Sam Leman, opened his first Chevrolet dealership over 55 years ago.
If you visit their dealership today though, you'll find that not everything has changed. They still operate their dealership like their grandfather did, with honesty and integrity. Sam and Stephen understand that you have many different choices in where you buy or service your vehicle.
This is why they do everything they can to make the car buying process as easy and hassle-free as possible. They are thankful for the many lasting friendships that began with a simple welcome to Sam Leman's. Their customers keep coming back because they experience something different.
I've known Sam and Stephen and their wives my entire life and I can vouch for their character and integrity, which makes it easy to highly recommend you check them out today. Your car buying process doesn't have to be something you dread, so come see for yourself at Sam Leman Chevrolet in Eureka. Sam and Stephen would love to see you and they appreciate your business.
Learn more at their website, LemanEureka.com or visit them on Facebook by searching for Sam Leman Eureka. You can also call them on 309-467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Laura Dugger: (15:30 - 15:31) And I want to continue getting into more of those practicals. Do you want to give us just a taste or an example or story of what that might look like?
Brian Smith: (15:32 - 16:54) We keep saying, we keep talking about the importance of the car ride home that it's tempting for us and not us broadly in the U.S., tempting for us, Ed and I, as people who have done this for 50 plus years and who should know better, it's tempting for us as discipled by an ESPN over analyzing everything culture and want to talk about sports to get in the car ride home with our kids and all we want to talk about is how game went, what they did right, what they did wrong, what they could fix next time.
Maybe instead of passing to Tim, they should take the shot next time because they're wide open. They just hit three in a row. So, and what our kids need from us in those moments is less coaching, less criticizing, less critiquing, and they just need us to connect with them.
The stats on kids quitting youth sports is crazy right now. Its 70 percent are quitting before the age of 13, in large part because it's not fun, and a lot of kids are attaching this idea of it not being fun to the car ride home with their parents who, let's say this too, most of us are well-intentioned parents. We're not trying to screw our kids up.
We want what's best for our kids, but the data and the research and the lived experience continues to tell us what our kids need from us is just to take a deep breath, connect with them, less coaching. Ed keeps saying less coaching, more slurpees.
Laura Dugger: (16:55 - 17:07) I like that. And that ties in. Is it called the peak-end principle that you discovered why kids are resisting that critique on the way home?
Brian Smith: (17:07 - 18:17) Yeah, absolutely. The peak-end rule in psychology is known as this: we, just as humans in general, not just kids, we largely remember things in our lives based on the peak moment of that event, but also how the event ends. And so, the peak moment in sport can be anything from something that goes really well, like they scored a goal or made a basket or something that did not go well, just like a massive event that took place that they're going to remember.
But then it's also married to how that event ends. So, if you think for kids, how does every youth sport experience end? It ends with the car ride home.
So, if they're experiencing the car ride home as I did not live up to mom and dad's standards, or there's fear getting into the car because they don't know what their parents are going to say, how are they remembering the totality of their youth sport experience? It is, I didn't, I didn't measure up. I wasn't enough.
It felt like sports was a place that I needed to perform for my parents or my coach. And I always feel a little bit short. We want to help parents see like there's a different path forward that can be more joyful for you, but hopefully more joyful for your kid as well.
Ed Uszynski: (18:17 - 21:37) Well, and, and I'll just, let me keep going with that, Brian. I thought you really articulated all that so well. I can just imagine a parent maybe thinking, was there never a time to correct?
Is there never a time to give input? And we would say, well, of course there, there is, they need far less of it from us than we think they need when it comes to their sport. And again, we can talk about that.
They need far less of that from us. They need us to be their parents, not to be their coaches. Even if we are their coach, they need us to be more their parents.
But there is a time to do it. We're just saying the car ride home is the worst time to do it. And that's usually the time that most of us, you know, we've got two hours of stuff to download with them.
And that's just, it's not a good time. But the other thing that Brian and I keep talking about is how about, what if we had some different metrics that we were even trying to measure? So, most of the time our metrics have to do with their performance.
Like what, what are we grading them on? Again, depending on what the sport is, there's these different things that we're looking for to say, how you did today is based on whether you did this or you didn't do that and whatnot. And we're saying as parents, and again, starting with us, we needed some other metrics that were actually more concerned about what was going on in their soul.
So again, I'm sure we'll talk more about this, but the virtues, how did love show up in the way they competed today? Where that usually is tied to them noticing somebody else. Do I, am I even asking them any questions about that?
Are they experiencing peace in the midst of all this chaos and anxiety that shows up at every game? How do we teach them to experience peace? How do they become other-centered instead of just self-centered all the time in a culture, a sport culture that's teaching them to always be the center of attention and try to be?
So, we just have needed to exchange some of what we had on that performance list, like tamper that down a little bit and maybe expand the list of categories that we're looking for that actually will matter when they're 25. And we keep saying this, our goal is that they'd come home for Thanksgiving when they're 25. And so, we need to stay relationally connected to them and how we act on the car ride home day after day after day after day, year after year is doing something to our relationship.
But we also are recognizing that it's really not going to matter whether Trey finishes with his left hand at the game today when he's 25, it's not going to matter. It's not going to matter probably a year from now, but how he goes through the handshake line after the game and the way he addresses other people, and whether or not he's learning to submit to authority, whether or not he's learning to embrace other people's humanity. Yes, even in the context of sports, that's really going to matter when he's 25.
It's going to matter when he's married. Those are the things that will matter. And we say that as people who are older and have been involved in ministry and have worked with college athletes and see what happens in their lives even after they're finished, and they have no idea who they are anymore.
And this thing that's dominated their life has not actually prepared them well to do life. And that's a problem that we say, let's start changing that when they're six and not hope they're figuring it out when they're 22.
Laura Dugger: (21:38 - 22:11) I love that because that's such a theme throughout those virtues that you talked about, but discipleship and sports are a tool or a way that we can disciple our kids. I also love that you give various questions throughout the book and even quick phrases. So to close that conversation on the car ride home, if we say, okay, that's what I've been coaching the whole way home, what is a question we could ask our child afterwards and a statement we could say and leave it at that and do it a better way?
Brian Smith: (22:12 - 23:56) The question I have consistently asked my kids after learning that I've been doing this the wrong way for a long time, I tweet my question to they get in the car and I say, is there anything that happened today from the game that you want to talk about? And it's frustrating to me because 99% of the time they say, no, can we listen to the radio? And we listen to the radio, or they play a on my phone, but I'm respecting their desire that they're done with what just happened and they're ready to move on to the next thing, even though I really want to talk about what just happened.
And then the statement that I want to make sure that I'm consistently saying that they're hearing is I love you and I'm proud of you. So, game didn't go well. Yeah, you did play well today.
That's okay. Hey, I love you and I'm proud of you. Game went well today.
Awesome. Great job. Hey, I love you and I'm proud of you.
So I want that to be the consistent theme that they're hearing for me, which is hopefully going to help them better understand the gospel later in life, that as they get older and older, hopefully they'll begin to realize it seemed like the way that my mom and dad interacted with me when I was performing in sport, but their love was not attached to my performance. That seems really similar to what I'm learning more and more that Jesus does for me, that I'm trying to do all these things that are good. But from what I'm understanding about the gospel, it seems like Jesus loves me in spite of what I do.
He loves me just because He's connected to me, that God loves me because I'm a son or daughter, not because I'm performing as a son or a daughter. So, in a very real way, I really am hoping that I'm giving a good teaser for my kids now for when they fully experience the gospel as they go through the life.
Ed Uszynski: (23:56 - 24:47) Another really good connecting question. I love how you said all that, Brian, is if they don't want to talk about the game, is it okay, did you have fun today? And they can only go in one of two directions.
No. Well, tell me about that. Why not?
And it opens up the door to talk about, well, because I didn't get to play or because something bad happened. And again, tell me more about that. Tell me more about that.
Or they say, yes, great. What happened that was fun? And it creates a very different conversation in the car.
And it opens up, again, relational possibilities that go way beyond, why do you keep passing it when you should be shooting it? Wow. And just all the different ways that that comes out of us, depending on sport, depending on their age.
But those are great questions. Go ahead, Brian.
Brian Smith: (24:47 - 25:41) I just asked my son this morning. He's a freshman. His wrestling season is almost done.
And I just asked, like, what has been most fun for you in wrestling this year? And his first thing was, I feel like I'm learning a lot. And that's really fun for me, which he's on a really good team.
He's had a lot of success. He's made a lot of good friends. But even that gave me a window into his characters.
My son enjoys and I knew this is true about him. But my son enjoys learning, which means he enjoys the process of getting better and better and better, which can happen in school, it can happen doing stuff in the yard, it can it can also happen in sport. But for me to remember moving forward, yeah, he he's probably going to have a different metric for what's fun in sport than I often do for him.
Yeah, like I wanted to learn. I want him to win though, too. He's happy with learning right now.
So, I need to be happy with that for him.
Ed Uszynski: (25:41 - 26:34) If I can say this, too, again, I don't want to be vulnerable on your behalf. But then knowing this, he's lost a lot this year to really good kids. Yeah.
And so much of the learning has been in the context of losing. So, you as a dad, actually, you could be crushing him because of those losses and what he needs to do to fix that and what he needs to do so that that doesn't happen again. And it's like he's already committed to learning.
How do you just how do you celebrate the loss? Like he took the risk to try something new in this movie. He tried to survive an extra period.
That's a process when and it's we just need to get better at that. Like you genuinely can celebrate that. That's not just a that's not like a participation trophy.
It's acknowledging now, do you're taking you're taking the right steps that are actually making you a winner, even if you don't have more points at the end of the game right now.
Laura Dugger: (26:34 - 26:54) Yeah. Yeah. And that long term win that you're talking about, even with character and you've talked about fun and asking them about fun.
Is it true that that's the main reason kids are dropping out of sports at such a rapid rate before age 13 is that it's just not fun anymore?
Ed Uszynski: (26:55 - 28:58) Yeah. Yeah. And why is it not fun?
And again, this is where Brian and I are always getting in each other's business. And we know that this conversation gets in all of our business as adults. But why is it not fun?
It's not fun because of the coaches and it's not fun because of the parents. We are creating stress. We are creating again collectively because we're all in different places on the on the spectrum on this in terms of what we're actually doing when we show up at games.
But if you even just go to any soccer game and you be quiet and just listen to what's happening and everybody's shouting and screaming things and there's contradictory messages being sent and there's angst at every turn and there's an incredible celebration because this eight year old was able to get the ball to go across the line for another goal. And what that's doing inside the kids is it is creating a not fun atmosphere. Let's just say it like that.
That's a not fun atmosphere when you're eight, when you're 10, when you're trying to figure out how to make your body work. You're trying to learn the game that you're unfamiliar with and you're trying to do what this coach is telling you to do. And you're also trying to do what all the parents are telling you what to do.
And if it's a team sport, you're trying to interact and play with other kids who are all in that same state of disarray, which is very stressful and frustrating. And we're just adding to it. So instead of removing it, instead of playing a role that says, we're going to keep diffusing that stress.
And again, I'll speak for myself. Too often, I have been the one that's actually adding to it. And so, kids are just like, why would I do this?
Why would I want to get in that car again with you? It's not fun. This is a game.
And so, there's a million other things that I can do with my time where I don't have everybody yelling at me and I don't have to listen to you correct me for two hours.
Laura Dugger: (29:00 - 29:21) Well, and one other thing that surprised me, maybe why kids are dropping out, you share on page 47, a quote that research reveals a strange correlation. The more we spend, the less our kids actually enjoy their sport. So, did you have any more insight into that?
Brian Smith: (29:21 - 30:50) Yeah, this was a real study that was done at Utah State. Researchers found that the more money parents are spending, again, let's say well-intentioned parents, the more we're spending in sports, the less our kids are enjoying. And the more they have dug into it, they're finding, and intuitively it makes sense.
If you buy your kid a $600 baseball bat, what's the expectation that they're supposed to do with this really expensive bat? When they swing, they better hit the ball, and they better get on base. If we're going to buy you this expensive of a bat, you can't just have process goals with it.
You better swing and hit it. And that's causing stress for kids. If you travel across state lines and you go to Disney to play at their sports complex, you're not there for vacation.
You're there to perform. So even if parents are saying we're trying to have fun, kids know when you're traveling and you're getting all this good equipment and you're on the elite team and you're receiving the best of the best stuff, they know it comes with some sort of an expectation. College athletes can barely handle that type of pressure and expectations, but we've placed this professional on youth sports from fifth five-year-olds to 15-year-olds, and it's just crushing them.
It's crushing them. Again, college athletes and professional athletes can barely handle it. They need mental health coaches for sports, but we're expecting that our five-year-olds can handle it, and they can't.
Ed Uszynski: (30:51 - 31:19) And they may not even be able to articulate it. So that's the other thing. They may not be able to identify what's actually going on inside and put it into words.
So again, that's why we're trying to sound the alarm for ourselves and for others who are listening, because we can do it different. Again, just to even keep spinning it back in an encouraging direction, we can do this different. We can change this this week in our corner of the bleachers.
We can start over again.
Laura Dugger: (31:21 - 31:48) Absolutely and make a difference. And before we talk about even more of the pros with sports, I think it's also necessary to reflect and maybe even grieve a few things. So, what would you say are some things families are missing out on when they choose youth sports to overfill their calendar, that that's all that they make time for?
What do you think they're missing out on?
Brian Smith: (31:51 - 33:16) Yeah, I think a couple that come to mind are family dinners are a big one. That's big for us in the Smith house, is just having the ability after a long day to sit at the dinner table together, to eat food together, and to process the day and be with one another. But when my kids' practice goes late, it means we're either eating almost towards bedtime or we're eating in different shifts.
And so that's something that we grieve. I think for me, when my schedule is full, I'm tempted to adopt the mindset that what's happening on the wrestling mat or on the track matters more than it actually does. And it robs me of the ability to just take a deep breath and smile and enjoy watching my kids play sports.
That without an intervention or a pregame devotional in the car for myself, I risk sitting in the stands or being on the sidelines, being stressed out and putting pressure on myself and pressure on my kids and gossiping about why the coach didn't put this kid into the people next to me, instead of just enjoying the gift that is sports and watching my kid try and succeed and try and fail. That is a gift available to me as a dad to watch my kid do that. But the busyness often robs me of that perspective.
Ed Uszynski: (33:17 - 36:06) Well, and the busyness robs, again, if you're married, that busyness eventually wears away at your relationship. And it's not just sports. I mean, busyness, we can fill our schedule, overfill our schedules with any number of things.
We can overfill our schedules with church stuff to a point where it becomes detrimental to our relationship. If we don't set boundaries so that we're making sure we're doing what we need to do to be face-to-face and to be going to areas beneath the surface with each other in our relationship and being able to do that with our kids as well, eventually there's negative consequences to that. It may not happen right away, but I've definitely experienced that.
We've experienced that in our home where it's easy to maybe chase one kid around for a while, but what happens when you add three into the mix and you haven't really done a time budget or paid attention to the fact that when we sign up for all these things, you get a month into it and you realize, oh, we have to be in different places at the same time. So, we're not even watching stuff together anymore. We're just running.
I can endure anything for a season, but what youth sports wants now in every sport from the youngest ages is that it becomes a year-round commitment. So, you're not even signing up to play a season anymore. You're signing up for a year in most cases because after the games, then they're going to have training.
They're going to have this other thing going on. And so again, can we say, well, we'll play the actual season, but then we're not going to do the additional training over these next three months. Again, we want to give parents’ permission that you can say no to that.
Well, we paid for it. Well, it's okay. If you want your kid to be on that team and you like this club or whatever, then you pay the money and you just say, we're going to sit those three months out and we're going to use those three months actually to have people over our house for dinner.
Again, whatever's on the list, Laura, that you said about being more holistic and not letting sport operate like an idol in our life where it's taken on, it's washed out everything else in our life. We can get back in control of that by just saying no a little bit. You can go to church on Sunday.
Even if there's tournament games going on on Sunday, you can go to the coach early and say, hey, we just, in our family, we just don't want to be available before 12. Are you okay with that? And most of the time coaches will be.
The kid might have to sit extra maybe for not being, whatever. Okay. That's not going to be the end of the world that they had to sit out an extra game or had to sit out a half because they weren't available on Sunday morning.
It might actually make a huge difference that they weren't at church for two and a half years in the most formative time of their life.
Laura Dugger: (36:07 - 37:36) And a lot of times the way of wisdom includes reflection, getting alone with the Lord and asking, have we overstuffed our schedule this conversation today? Let's talk specifically with youth sports. Is that trumping everything else?
Because what if we're putting it in a place it was never intended to be as an idol where we sacrifice hospitality or discipleship or community or even just a more biblical way of life? I think we have to bring wisdom into the conversation for what you've mentioned. Whether it's worth it, if they're even enjoying it, how much we're spending on it, and do we have the budget to allocate our finances that way and evaluating the time just to see and make sure that it's rightly ordered.
Did you know you could receive a free email with monthly encouragement, practical tips, and plenty of questions to ask to take your conversation a level deeper, whether that's in parenting or on date nights? Make sure you access all of this at thesavvysauce.com by clicking the button that says join our email list so that you can follow the prompts and begin receiving these emails at the beginning of each month. Enjoy!
But if we flip that to if youth sports are rightly ordered, then what are some things that we can celebrate or reasons that you would want families to give this a try?
Brian Smith: (37:37 - 40:09) The massive positive that we keep coming back to is we have a front row seat to see our kids go through every possible emotion in sport, the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. And then if we have the right perspective, we are armed with awesome opportunities and awesome information that we're seeing. We get to see what our kids are really good at.
We get to see their character gaps. And then we get to be the ones who, again, who are their primary response, primary disciplers. It really goes back to like, are we trusting youth sports for too little in our kids' lives?
Like many of us are trusting that our investment is going to get them a spot on a team, or maybe they get an opportunity in high school, maybe in college. And what we're saying is, yeah, that maybe. And that's not a bad end goal.
But if that's everything that you're investing into youth sports, it's not enough. Like what you have available to you every single day is to ask your kid if they showed somebody else's dignity on the field. You don't know if your kid's going to hit a home run today.
That may not be available to them their entire life. What's available to them every single day is to ask a question to their teammate, to see somebody and show dignity to them. And that's really, it's like, it's almost the opportunity of a lifetime for us as parents who, when our kids get home from school, we really don't know what happened most of the day.
We asked them how it went and we get the one-word answer. In sports, we don't have to guess. We get to see everything that happens.
And again, if we are actually trusting youth sports for discipleship investment, that's a good ROI. That's a good return on our investment. But we need a consistent intervention almost daily to say, no, this is why they're in sports.
Yes, I want to see them get better. I want to see them have fun, but Holy Spirit, would you help me see things today that I normally don't see? Holy Spirit, would you put them in circumstances and relationships today and in the season that's going to help them look more and more like Jesus by the time the season's done?
Holy Spirit, would you convict me in the moment when I am being a little too mouthy and saying things that I shouldn't? Would you help me to repent? And God, in those moments where I'm actually doing wrong on behalf of my kid, would you help me to humble myself and apologize to them?
And God, would you repair our relationship that way? So again, all of these options are available just because our kid's shooting a ball or they're on the field with somebody else tackling other people. We're trusting youth sports for too little.
Ed Uszynski: (40:10 - 41:10) That's all big boy and big girl stuff. It just is. I don't normally naturally do any of that.
I have to be coached into that. I have to be discipled myself. I have to work through my own issues, my own baggage, my own fears about the future, my own idolatrous holding onto this imagined future that I have for my kid, irrespective of what God may or may not want.
I've got my own resentment. I've got my own regrets from the past. I wish things had gone differently for me, so I'm going to make sure they go different for you when it comes to sports.
And it's hard to look in the mirror and admit that I have anger issues. I mean, youth sports create a great opportunity for me to get up all my pent-up frustration from the day. We've given ourselves permission to do that, in most cases, to just yell and yell at refs and gripe about coaches and yell at kids.
Brian Smith: (41:10 - 41:31) Because that's what we do at the TV, right? When our favorite team is playing, we've conditioned ourselves to say, awful call, that was terrible. Then we get on social media and we complain about it.
We are discipling ourselves to this is how it's normative to respond within the context of sports. Then we carry all that baggage to our six-year-old soccer game.
Laura Dugger: (41:33 - 42:02) Well, I love how you keep pointing it back toward character and discipleship. You clearly state throughout the book, sports don't develop character, people do. But could you maybe elaborate on that a little bit more and share more now that we've listed pros and cons, you still list a completely different way that we can meaningfully participate while also pushing back?
Brian Smith: (42:04 - 43:49) I'll start with the first part, and then you can answer the second. We use the handshake line as a great example of why character needs to be taught to our kids. If you just watch a normal handshake line left without coaching, the kids are going through it, especially the ones who lose with their head down, they have limp hands, there's no eye contact, and they're mumbling good game, good game.
Sometimes they don't even say it, they'll say GG stands for good game. They don't just learn character by going through the handshake line. If anything, that's going through it like that without any sort of intervention or coaching, that's malforming their character.
That's teaching them when things don't go well, that it's okay for them not to be a big boy or a big girl and look somebody in the eye and congratulate them. What needs to happen? An adult needs to step in and say, hey, as we go through the handshake line, whether you win or lose, here's how we do it with class.
We shake somebody's hand, we look them in the eye, and we say good game. Even if in those moments we don't actually mean it, we still show them dignity and honor. And then when we're done going through the handshake line, guess what we're going to do?
We're going to run down the refs who are trying to get in their car and get out of here, and we're going to give them a high five and say, thank you so much for reffing today. That stuff needs to be taught. Our kids don't just come out of the womb knowing how to do that.
We have to teach them how to do it. Sometimes good coaches will do that, but the more and more we get sucked up into the sports industrial complex, we're getting well-intentioned coaches, but we're getting coaches who care more about the big W, the win, than the character formation stuff that happens.
Ed Uszynski: (43:49 - 45:27) They need to keep hearing it over and over again. I have a ninth grade Bible study in my house the other day with athletes and a whole bunch of my son's basketball team. Exactly what Brian just said, I actually was like, wow, I've got them here.
There was a big blow up at a game the other day, and we wound up talking about it. I said, I'm going to take this opportunity actually to say what Brian just said. When you go through a handshake line, this is how you go through it.
I watched what happened in the game a couple days later. Basically, they did the exact opposite of what I told them to do, and they lost. It was just what Brian said.
They went through limp handed. They didn't look anybody in the face, and they weren't even saying anything. I just chuckled to myself, and you know how this is as a parent.
They may or may not do it. Of course, those aren't my kids. I have more stewardship over my child, who actually, he is doing what I've asked him to do because I've re-emphasized it across time now.
It's not a failure because they didn't do what I said. Again, the pouty side of me wants to be like, forget it. I'm just not even going to try anymore.
It's like, no, they're kids. That was the first time they've heard that. They're going to do what their patterns have, the muscle memory that's been created by their patterns, just like we do as adults.
The next time I have a chance to bring that up again, I'm not going to shame them. I'm just going to go over it again with them. Here's how we do it.
It's super hard to do this, guys, when you just want to be violent with people or you want to cry. You got to pull yourself together. That's what big men do.
That's what big women do in life. They pull themselves together in those moments and do the right thing.
Brian Smith: (45:28 - 46:01) You don't know whether the fifth time you say it is going to stick or the 50th time. Your responsibility as the Christ-following parent is to do it the sixth time and the seventh time and the seventh time and trust that God is going to take those moments and do what he does. We're ultimately not responsible for our kids' behavior.
We're responsible for pointing them in the right direction, and then hopefully, yeah, the Holy Spirit steps in and transforms and changes and convicts in those moments, but it might take some time.
Ed Uszynski: (46:02 - 47:47) Tom Bilyeu So that's how you push back, Laura. You were asking that. How do we push back without being just completely involved in it or going for the same ride that everybody else is going for?
There's just little moments like that scattered throughout. Literally, every day that my kids are involved in youth sports, the car ride over, what happens on the way home, how we talk about it, what happens during the game and what we wind up talking about out of that, the side conversations that happen that just get brought up apart from games of how we interact with people and so-and-so looks like they're struggling. What do you know about that?
That's how we push back, that in our corner of the bleachers, oh, how we interact with other parents. We haven't even talked about that yet, that I can take an interest in more than just my own kid in the bleachers and spend way more energy actually in cheering for other kids and just trying to give them confidence and spend way less time trying to direct that at my own child who knows that I'm there. In fact, my side kid has said he doesn't want to hear my voice during the game.
It distracts him. He's like, I'd much rather that you cheer for other people. It's like, okay.
Having questions ready for other parents during timeouts and as you sit there for hours together, what do you talk about? Well, I could be the one that actually initiates substantive conversations over time with them and asks them about what's going on in different parts of their life. And in having done that, people want to talk.
They want a safe place actually to share what's going on in their So let me be the sports minister. Let me take on that identity and actually care about other people.
Laura Dugger: (47:49 - 49:47) I love that. Even that practical idea of just coming to each game, maybe with a different question, ready to open up those conversations. And I'll share a quick story as well.
Our two oldest daughters recently just gave cheerleading a try at a local Christian school that allows homeschool kids to participate. And this is an overt way that somebody chooses the different way. So, it's the coach of the basketball team.
His name is Cole. And at the end of every game, we saw him consistently throughout this season when it was a home game, whether their team won or lost, he would ask them, okay, shut off the scoreboard. It's all blank.
He gathers both teams. As soon as the game is over teams, cheerleaders, the stands stay filled with all the parents. And he says, this is not our identity.
The world and Satan, our enemy, who's very real. He wants us to put our identity here, but it's not here. You made us better tonight by the way that you played and you were able to shine Jesus.
And we're going to go a step further and we're going to do what we call attaways. So, he's like, all right, boys, you open it up. And his team is trained.
They say to the other team, Hey, number 23, what's your name? I loved how you pushed me so much harder tonight and says, my name's Ben. And so, their Attaway is, Hey, Ben.
And everybody goes, Hey, Ben. Yeah, Ben. Yeah, Ben Attaway.
And everybody just erupts in clapping. And the other team is always blown away and they are just grinning, whether they just lost. So, the boys go through that for a while and then they open it up to the other team and they start sharing Attaways.
And then they open it up to the crowd and the parents are able to say, I see the way you modeled Jesus by being selfless with the ball or whatever it is. So, Cole said that his college coach did that many years ago and he's passed that on. And I love that's one way to redeem the game.
Ed Uszynski: (49:47 - 51:39) Wow. Beautiful. Beautiful.
Yeah. That's amazing. And, you know, I, so Brian and I talk about this too.
And I coached at a Christian school. So, we, we think that it's really important if you're going to play sports and you're going to be a Christian coach that you actually take the game seriously. And that we actually are here to compete and we are here to try to win.
There's nothing wrong with that. And we're going to pursue excellence when we show up with our bodies, and we train for this sport and we're going to try to win. Cause I think sometimes we end up kind of going all or nothing, especially within our Christian circles.
We're uncomfortable with that. And it's like, yes, do that. And on the backside of that to do what that coach did is amazing.
It's that, that is, that is exactly what we're saying. We're also going to try to form our souls in the midst of this. We're going to try to win on the scoreboard.
Okay. The game's over, we lost, we won, whatever. There's more going on here than just that.
And can we access that together? And again, that's so rare. Probably everybody listening has never even heard of anything like what you just said.
It would be amazing if a bunch of people did, but that's what we're saying. Let's do more of that. Let's find ways to have more of those conversations in our sphere of influence.
Maybe we're not the coach, but we can do that in our car. We can do that when we're at dinners with the other, with other players and other team, you know, we, we can do that. We can take that kind of initiative.
If we have those categories in our mind, instead of just being frustrated that my kid didn't get to play as much tonight. And I'm that bugs me. It's like, okay, it can bug you.
And now I gotta, I gotta be a big boy and get more out of this than just being frustrated that he or she didn't get to play as much. It's hard.
Laura Dugger: (51:40 - 52:11) Absolutely. Well, and like you guys are doing having Bible studies outside of the, the team that you can instill values in that way and share scripture that they're memorizing to go out there with excellence for the Lord. So, I love all of that.
And I've got just a few quick questions, just kind of for perspective. I want to draw out something from the book. Is it true that young athletic success predicts adult athletic success?
Brian Smith: (52:13 - 53:51) It is not true. This is, this is not a hot take. This is researched back more and more research they're doing on this.
And they're finding that there's not a direct correlation between a young elite athlete and them continuing that up into the right trajectory and being an elite athlete later in life in large part, because when puberty hits, like everything is a game changer. So, this is, I found this fascinating and this is probably going to be new to you too. This just came out today.
At the time we're doing this podcast, the winter Olympics is going on in Norway. It's just like, they're killing it. Nor Norway's youth sports system.
This is wild. They give participation trophies for all the kids. They don't keep score until 13 years old.
They don't do any national travel competitions, no posting youth sports results online. So, there's no online presence of youth sport results. And their country motto is joy of sport for all.
And they're, they're killing it right now in the Olympics. So, like, that's not to say, like you got to follow their model and then you're going to win all these gold medals, but it is, there is something to just let the kids have fun. And the longer they play sport, because it's fun, the better opportunity you're actually going to have to see them blossom and develop some of these God-given gifts that they might have.
Don't expect it to come out before they're 13. Even if it does, there's no guarantee that it's going to continue on until they're 23. Just let them have fun.
Ed Uszynski: (53:52 - 55:55) Brian, we, Brian and I got to speak at a church the other day about this topic. And there was a couple that came up afterwards and they asked the question of what, so when do you think we should let our kids play organized sports or structured sports? And so again, Brian and I are careful.
Like I, there's no, there's no one size fits all answer to that. We would suggest as late as possible, wait as long as possible. Because once you start doing structured sport where there's a coach and you have to be at practices and the games are structured and there's reps, it just cuts away all the possibility they have to just play and just to go up to the YMCA and just play for three hours at whatever it is that they like to do.
And they said, well, it's encouraging to hear that they said, because we, we actually are way more into just developing their bodies physically. And so, we do dance with them, and we do rock climbing and they were kind of outdoorsy people, and they just started listing off all these things they do because we want them to become strong in their bodies, and learn to love activity like that. And I just thought, again, that's, that probably would cause a lot of people to freak out to hear that, that they have eight, nine-year-olds that aren't on teams yet.
They're just, they're training their bodies to appreciate physicality and to become coordinated and to, you know, to get better at movement. And it's like, what sport is that not going to be super helpful in five years from now, even when they're 12, 13 years old. And now they really do want to play one sport, and they do want to be on a team.
They're going to be way ahead of the kids actually that just sat on benches or stood in the outfield, you know, day after day after day at practices. Again, that's maybe hard to hear, but maybe there's some adjustments that need to be made again; to give ourselves permission to say, we don't have to get on that train right now. You don't have to, your kid's not going to be behind.
They actually could be ahead. If you do the kinds of things we just talked about.
Laura Dugger: (55:56 - 56:11) I love that. And even that example with what it looks like played out with Norway and also, do you have any other quick tips just for instilling and cultivating a heart of gratitude and youth sports rather than entitlement?
Brian Smith: (56:13 - 57:33) I'm a high school cross country and track coach, and I have kids on my team who want to get faster at running, but instead of running, they want to lift weights and they want to do plier metrics. So, there's, yes, there's a spot for that. But the way you get better at running is to run.
You got to run more miles and more miles. And I think gratitude is similar. That gratitude, part of it is a, it's a feeling, but it's also a muscle that we can flex even if we don't feel it.
And so, I would encourage parents who are trying to instill gratitude into their kids to give them practical things like, hey, after practice, just go shake your coach's hand or give them a fist bump and tell them, thanks for practice today, coach. That that's a disciplined way to practice gratitude that will hopefully build the muscle where they're, they're using it later in life. After a game, I taught my kids this when they were young and they still do it today.
Go shake a ref's hand. I mentioned this earlier, just a really, really practical way to show thankfulness and gratitude to somebody who really doesn't get a whole lot of gratitude pointed at them during a game or after a game. If anything, they have people chasing them through the parking lot for other reasons.
I want my kids to be chasing them down to give them a fist bump or a high five. And so, gratitude is something that we can just practice practically. And hopefully the discipline practice will lead to a delight and actually doing it.
Ed Uszynski: (57:34 - 59:39) And how do we cultivate an inner posture? Cause I tend to be a cup half empty type person. I'm a, I'm a whiner by nature and a continuous improvement.
There's always something wrong. And I'm, it's easy for me to find those things just as a person. I'm not even saying that as a dad or a coach or anything.
And it's been super helpful to me in the last decade, even to just like, I can choose to shift that. There, there is, there's a list of things that are broke, but there is always a list of things that are good. There's always something good here to be found.
And even as I've tried to like, again, tip the scales more in that direction, I can keep pushing that out of my kids. So, so this, you know, my ninth-grade son tends to just like, he doesn't like a whole bunch of what's going on in basketball right now. So, I keep asking him if he's having fun.
He says, no, like, why not? Or like, who did, why did you not have fun today? So, it's just the same thing every day.
I'm like, okay, who did you enjoy even being with today? Nobody. And I'm like, dude, I don't believe that actually.
I just, I don't believe that. There was somebody that you had some moment with today that you enjoyed, or you wouldn't want to keep going back up there because, and he does. So, give me a name.
Okay. Lenny. What happened with Lenny that was fun?
And I make him name it. Like I'm, I'm, I'm trying to coach him through it. And sure enough, he does have some sentences of what was fun today.
And it's like, good, let's, let's at least hold onto that in the midst of all the other stuff that's not right. Let's choose to see the thing that was good and that you enjoyed and that we could be thankful for. Not everybody got to have that today.
Again, I have to have my, I have to be the parent. I have to be the discipler. I have to be in, you know, in charge of my own soul that wants to be negative all the time and say, nope, we're going to, we're going to choose gratitude today because the Bible tells us to do that.
There's something about that posture that opens the door for the gospel to be expressed through us. So, let's practice.
Laura Dugger: (59:40 - 59:50) Well said, and there's so much we could continue learning from both of you. Where can we go after this chat to learn more from each one of you?
Brian Smith: (59:52 - 1:00:14) Yeah, we do a lot of our writing online at thechristianathlete.com. And so, if you go there, you can see articles that are specifically written for parents, for coaches, for athletes, all around this idea of what does it look like to integrate faith and sport together? So, there's Bible studies, devotional, there's other books that have been written, but thechristianathlete.com is where a lot of that, that stuff lies.
Laura Dugger: (1:00:16 - 1:00:22) Wonderful. Link to that in the show notes for today's episode. And Ed, anything you wanted to add for where we can follow?
Ed Uszynski: (1:00:23 - 1:01:02) No, no. Anything that has to do with this topic for me is at thechristianathlete.com as well. And we're trying to be, you know, more available to churches, to Christian schools, like we said, to come do seminars; to have a three-hour, you know, take a three-hour block of time and bring parents together that want to be having these conversations.
We, we've been saying from the beginning with the book, even that we hope that people will not try to do this alone but will lock arms with other people in their church or their community. They're saying, let's, let's see if we can do this differently together. So, we want to be available to help y'all.
If anybody wants that, just reach out to us at thechristianathlete.com.
Laura Dugger: (1:01:03 - 1:01:20) Wonderful. Appreciate you sharing that. And you may be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge.
And so, as my final question for both of you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Brian Smith: (1:01:23 - 1:02:04) Mine is, my mantra this year is consistency compounds. So, I've mentioned that with cross-country coaching. I tell my kids this weekly consistency compounds that if you want to be a good runner, just show up and run, get some sleep.
And then the next day, do it again and repeat and repeat and repeat. And the consistency will compound over time, and you will get better. And so, I take that even into my own walk with Jesus that I'm remembering consistency compounds with how I read my Bible and what I look at and what I'm stewarding to come into my mind really throughout all life that I want to continue to stack days and compound interest on that.
Ed Uszynski: (1:02:05 - 1:03:09) I like that, Brian, we need to get a T-shirt made with that on it. I would say changing the narrative. I tell myself about myself.
That's been huge for me the last years. And it kind of probably even comes out of that whole cup half empty thing. It's like, especially in marriage, I just spent a decade telling myself that I don't like going out in the woods.
And I married a girl that's a woodsy type person. She loves being at lakes. And at some point it's just like, well, dude, maybe the reason why God brought this person into your life was so that you would change and you actually could start to experience this and learn, like it.
And I just, there's so many things in my life that I've just gotten so used to telling myself, I don't like this, I don't like that, or I want this all the time, or I want that. And it's like, change the narrative you tell yourself about yourself and see what kind of joy that produces. Maybe God is actually trying to bring change for you, and you'll never find it if you just stick to this is who I am and what I am and how it's going to be.
It's been super helpful.
Laura Dugger: (1:03:11 - 1:03:33) Brian and Ed, those are so good. And I've thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. I've learned from your parenting, from your passion, from the way that you are disciplined yourselves and disciple others.
There's so much goodness and you wrote with excellence in this book as well. I'm just so grateful. So, thank you for being my guest today.
Ed Uszynski: (1:03:34 - 1:03:35) Thank you, Laura.
Laura Dugger: (1:03:36 - 1:07:19) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.
This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.
Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.
Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.
First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.
You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Feb 23, 2026
Monday Feb 23, 2026
*Disclaimer* This episode contains adult content and is not recommended for young listeners.
1 Samuel 24:19b NIV “May the Lord reward you well for the way you treated me today.”
*Transcription Below*
Bio:
Thank you to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company
Questions and Topics We Cover:
- As Christ followers, should we use a friend’s preferred names and pronouns?
- If one part of Scripture talks about turning the other cheek, is that the same as saying God expects you to stay in an abusive marriage?
- Is it reasonable to assume that once they have a smartphone, 100% of kids will be exposed to pornography?
Previous Episodes on Sexual Intimacy on The Savvy Sauce, Including Past Episodes with Dr. Juli Slattery:
Fostering a Fun, Healthy Sex Life with your Spouse with Dr. Jennifer Konzen
Ways to Deepen Your Intimacy in Marriage with Dr. Douglas Rosenau
Ten Common Questions About Sex, Shared Through a Biblical Worldview with Dr. Michael Sytsma
Hope For Treating Pelvic Pain with Tracey LeGrand
Treatment for Sexual Issues with Certified Sex Therapist, Emma Schmidt
Talking With Your Kids About Sex with Brian and Alison Sutter
Natural Aphrodisiacs with Christian Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Douglas Rosenau
Pain and Joy in Sexual Intimacy with Psychologist and Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Jessica McCleese
Identifying and Fighting Human Trafficking with Dr. Jeff Waibel
Hormones and Body Image with Certified Sex Therapist, Vickie George
Passion Pursuit with Dr. Juli Slattery
Female Orgasm with Sue Goldstein
Erectile Dysfunction, Premature Ejaculation, and Treatments Available with Dr. Irwin Goldstein
Turn Ons, Turn Offs, and Savoring Sex in Marriage with Dr. Jennifer Konzen
Desire Discrepancy in Marriage with Dr. Michael Sytsma
Answering Listener's Questions About Sex with Kelli Willard
Anatomy of an Affair with Dave Carder
Supernatural Restoration Story with Bob and Audrey Meisner
Healthy Minds, Marriages, and Sex Lives with Drs. Scott and Melissa Symington
Female Pornography Addiction and Meaningful Recovery with Crystal Renaud Day
Building Lasting Relationships with Clarence and Brenda Shuler
Healthy Ways for Females to Increase Sexual Enjoyment with Tracey LeGrand
Pornography Healing for Spouses with Geremy Keeton
Sexual Sin Recovery for You and Your Spouse (Part Two)
Personal Development and Sexual Wholeness with Dr. Sibylle Georgianna
Our Brain’s Role in Sexual Intimacy with Angie Landry
Discovering God's Design for Romance with Sharon Jaynes
Sex in Marriage and Its Positive Effects with Francie Winslow, Part 1
Science and Art of Sexual Intimacy in Marriage, Part 2
Making Love in Marriage with Debra Fileta
Mutually Pleasing Sex in Marriage with Gary Thomas
Sex Series: God’s Design and Warnings for Sex: An Interview with Mike Novotny
Sex Series: Enhancing Female Pleasure and Enjoyment of Sex: An Interview with Dr. Jennifer Degler
Sex Series Orgasmic Potential, Pleasure, and Friendship: An Interview with Bonny Burns
Sex Series: Sex Series: Healthy Self, Healthy Sex: An Interview with Gaye Christmus
Sex Series: Higher Sexual Desire Wife: An Interview with J Parker
Sex Series: Six Pillars of Intimacy with Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo
215 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part One with Dr. Kris Christiansen
216 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part Two with Dr. Kris Christiansen
217 Tween/Teen Females: How to Navigate Changes during Puberty with Dr. Jennifer Degler
218 Secrets of Sex and Marriage: Interview with Dr. Michael Sytsma
Special Patreon Release: Holy Sex: An Interview with Dr. Juli Slattery
Special Patreon Release: His Desires and Her Desires in the Bedroom with Dr. Jennifer Konzen
224 Surprising Discoveries of Sex in Marriage: An Interview with Shaunti Feldhahn
260 Sex After Cancer with Dr. Kris Christiansen
277 Breaking Through Addiction in Marriage with Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
*Transcription*
Music: (0:11 – 0:11)
Laura Dugger: (0:11 – 2:21) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.
My returning guest for today is Dr. Juli Slattery.
She has authored another book entitled Surrendered Sexuality: How Knowing Jesus Changes Everything, and we're going to cover a few themes from this book, but I think what you're going to find most helpful are her candid responses to some really tricky questions related to dating and pornography, technology, thought life, shows that we watch as believers, divorce, and just intimacy in general as married couples.
So, I think this is an episode that you're going to want to learn from yourself, but you'll also want to share with others because Dr. Juli has offered us such a gift as she directs us back to the heart issues and wisely guides us into sexual integrity in our own lives.
Here's our chat.
Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Juli.
Dr. Juli Slattery: (2:21 – 2:21) Thanks so much for having me back. It's always a joy.
Laura Dugger: (2:21 – 2:22) Well, I love that you've been a repeat guest many times. So, we get to just dive right in today because I'm going to link all of your previous episodes in the show notes. But to dive in, I'm just curious, as believers, where does your heart break as you see us compromising on God's design for sex?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (2:22 – 3:31) Hmm. That's such a good question. You know, I think my heart breaks the most in that when we compromise God's design for sexuality, or even when we don't understand it or understand His goodness, it means that there is a breach in our relationship with God.
And so, I am so passionate about what I do, not necessarily because I love talking about sexuality, but because for a lot of people, sexuality represents a wall between them and God, like an issue they can't resolve, or a place of shame that they just can't quite shake free from, or battle with sin that they feel like they're enslaved to. And so, those things mean that there's a limit to how much they invite God into their lives.
And so, for me, that's where my heart breaks the most is, you know, ultimately, we were created for the greatest fellowship with God and anything that gets in the way of that is something that God cares about and something that I care about.
Laura Dugger: (3:32 – 4:03) You say that well, and you've written many books, but in this most recent one, you plainly state one issue when you write, “You will not be able to obey God with your sexual thoughts, while binging shows and music that continually display the exact opposite.”
And I love how practical that is. So, Juli, why do you think this has become so normalized? And I would say, especially in Christian marriages.
Dr. Juli Slattery: (4:05 – 5:58) Yeah, you know, I think a lot of it is that the church has been historically really quiet about sexuality, you know, like we might talk about save sex for marriage, and don't cheat on your husband and that sort of thing. But the gray areas about how we think about our sexuality and kind of what we have the liberty and freedom to engage in, there's kind of silence, or maybe there's legalism.
And I think in that space, what ends up happening is the culture is so forthright with a message about sexuality, like woven throughout every single show that you could stream on any platform, you know, your music on Spotify, even the news you consume, the Instagram feeds, whatever, it's consistently showing you a way to understand sexuality that is contrary to God's design, and the messaging can be so subtle, or so repetitive that we don't even realize we're ingesting it.
And so, it's normal to talk about with your friends, like the latest season of The Bachelor, or, you know, the latest thing that you're streaming that if you really look at it, there's probably 100 references to sexuality that are outside of God's design. And so, we end up just having our mind conformed to this world.
And the scripture says really clearly in Romans 12, that we can't offer ourselves to God while we're still thinking like the world thinks that it requires an act of transformation of our thinking. And I don't know that there's anywhere more than we need this than in the topic of understanding our sexuality.
Laura Dugger: (6:00 – 6:59) Okay, so for I'm thinking of married couples, because I was recently at a wedding shower. And I love a friend from church. Her name is Dawn Karius. And she was giving the devotional and just sharing. You know, it's very easy to get married and fall into this trap. She was talking about what you watch specifically.
And she said, so many couples will watch something together, watch a show before bed, but be really intentional. If that is what you choose to do, then the shows that you're watching, even though you're with your spouse, is that drawing both of you closer to Christ? Because if it's pulling you further away from Christ, it's also pulling you away from one another.
And so, with all of that, and with what you've studied and written about, if a couple's hearing that and or some single person just hearing this, what would be your practical advice or encouragement for them?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (7:00 – 9:29) Yeah, some of it is, we can't live in a bubble. You know, it's, I think that there are some couples will have the conviction that, you know, we're just going to get rid of all of our devices, we're going to get rid of every streaming service. And there's nothing wrong with that decision, you might feel convicted to do that.
But for most couples, I would say, they're like, okay, we live in this world, we need to understand even the world we live in. And so, it's not like we're going to completely be cut off. But are we being discerning about what we consume?
And what are the standards that we might hit where we might just say, “You know what, we don't need to be watching this.” You know, like I can think of one show in particularly that my husband and I were watching. And it was a well-written show. It was exciting. But there was just so much profanity and just gross kind of sexual content that after two or three episodes, we're both just like, “You know what, as good as the show is, we just, this isn't, we're not watching this. Like we need to stop.”
And I think you need to have those discussions and you might have a different level of conviction than your spouse does. And that's okay, but at least have those conversations and you need to follow your conviction.
But then the other thing I would say that is equally important, if not more important, what are you consuming that helps you get God's perspective of sexuality? And what I've found is that a whole lot of Christian married couples know very little about what it looks like to build a healthy sex life in their marriage. And they're not consuming anything that helps them know how to love each other better, how to overcome differences, even how their bodies work, how to focus on one another and enjoy sex in a holy erotic way.
And so, even if you're watching and consuming very little content from the world, but you're not actively pursuing anything that gives you a biblical perspective, you're still going to end up defaulting to what the world says. And so, I think that again, it's equally as important or not, if not more important to be pursuing what's true and what's right and what's good.
Laura Dugger: (9:31 – 9:53) I love that, how you flipped it. And that discernment piece is huge because we don't want to be desensitized to then that we're consuming and we also want to feed on the good. So, I think it even leads to a broader question, again, as Christ followers, how can we recognize if our conscience is being pricked?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (9:54 – 12:05) Yeah, we can start by asking the Lord. You know, I mean, I think it's in, is it Psalm 139, where, you know, David is basically saying, “Search me, oh God, and know my thoughts, you know, show me if there's any offensive way within me.”
I think that's a beautiful prayer as an individual and as a couple, like God, we want to honor you with what we consume in media, with what we think about, would you guide us and would you show us? And then I think we all have that experience of watching something or listening to something or reading something where we're like, “Uh, I don't know, like, this is sort of a gray area. Like, I'm uncomfortable here. I probably shouldn't be watching this.” Or “Wow, that's really, that's really in your face. Like that's really graphic.”
And it's heeding the Holy Spirit when you get those prompts, instead of just pushing through and being like, “Ah, it's not that big of a deal. It's not going to affect me.” Like when you feel that sense of prompting, you respond to it and you say, “All right, I'm going to put this down. I'm going to shut this off.”
And, um, you know, the scripture says that we can become callous to those promptings of the Holy Spirit if we are in a habit of just running right through that. But we become more sensitive to the Holy Spirit when we yield and when we obey.
Um, and so, I think even just keeping track, you know, every day or every week, like where were the times regarding this or anything else that I really felt convicted by the Holy Spirit about maybe something I said about a friend, uh, or about a little white lie I told, you know, where were the times where I really felt the Holy Spirit nudging me and what did I do? Um, where do I need to confess that I didn't respond well? And where do I need to celebrate that? Yes, I listened, I obeyed, I yielded. Um, and so, I think that's a practice we get into of either ignoring that conviction or really yielding to it.
Laura Dugger: (12:06 – 12:28) Hmm. And that gets after the heart issue, which Jesus is so concerned about our heart. And that's a very softened heart approach. Yes. I hope we can have. And as it relates to sexual integrity, then what are some other ways that we need to be on guard so that we're careful not to be misled?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (12:29 – 13:37) Yeah, boy, I think there's just so much conversation. Um, again, even in Christian circles, sometimes around having a negative attitude towards sex, um, kind of accepting some forms of pornography as normal and even good, you know, husband bashing, wife bashing, you know, like complaining, kind of letting the thought feed in your mind of maybe I should have married somebody else.
Maybe that my life would be easier if I, I weren't married to this person. I wish they were this or that. So, sort of that discontent that is natural to feel in marriage. But the question is, what do you do with it? Do you give it space to grow and to nurture, or do you bring that before the Lord?
Um, so, I think those are some of the ways that we want to look at, like, how am I giving the enemy space in my life and in my marriage versus how am I inviting God to really reclaim what's broken here?
Laura Dugger: (13:38 – 14:01) Well, and then even thinking of the other side to guard ourselves from having a critical and judgmental spirit toward others or just having self-righteous pride. Can you educate us on some common reasons why some people may be predisposed to struggle with some certain sexual sins?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (14:02 – 17:20) Yeah, absolutely. I think that's so important, um, because the research really shows that some of us are more, I don't know if I'd say it that way, but we are going to be more predetermined maybe to struggle with things like pornography or same-sex attraction, or even hooking up.
And it's never like a one plus one equals two exactly. But there are what we might say indicators or risk factors that make you more vulnerable to those kinds of sexual struggles. And some of them might be unhealthy family dynamics growing up, you know, none of us had a perfect family, but let's say you grew up in a family where one of your parents was like overtly critical towards you all the time.
Maybe you went through a divorce with your parents where, um, you know, at a certain age, you just, your family fell apart and you're kind of looking for that stability and love. People who have experienced sexual trauma in childhood or the teen years are going to be more pre-dispositioned to want to understand that or act that out.
People who might struggle with anxiety. And, you know, some of it is we got to understand that sex, because it elicits dopamine in our brain and oxytocin and endorphins, which are all really feel good kind of experiences and hormones and neurotransmitters. When we had a sexual experience at a young age, our brain can learn, “Oh, this is how I deal with stress. This is how I deal with depression. This is how I deal with loneliness.”
So, a lot of times when you talk to somebody who has an ongoing struggle with a sexual temptation or sin, it's because they've learned as a pattern from maybe the time they were 10 years old or 12 years old or 15 years old, that this is how I dealt with the stress in my family. This is how I dealt with when my father died. This is how I dealt with when I was sexually abused. Like this was the way that I found to self-regulate and to self-medicate and to find comfort.
And that can be masturbation. It can be pornography or again, you know, acting out sexually. And so, for people who have that kind of story, and this might be your spouse, or this might be against somebody that you're looking at and judging to just say, “You need to stop that behavior,” is often not going to be enough. They need to do the work of really looking at what am I using sex for? What are the wounds that I'm using sex to cover up?
And how do I actually get the healing I need and find healthier and safer ways for me to cope with negative emotions? And that's why groups are really important for people who have sexual struggles. Counseling is really important. And again, that long journey of healing and freedom, not just a one-time decision that I'm going to try to never do this again.
Laura Dugger: (17:21 – 20:19) Love that word freedom, even because that hope is available. And just pointing out how you said this is not deterministic. That's not what we're saying is if you experience something, you will act out sexually. But I agree with you that it is fascinating and helpful to hear the correlation of certain things that happen, especially in childhood, and how that plays out long-term.
And I am blanking on which guest it was on The Savvy Sauce, but somebody was enlightening me. I think it was for females that if they were sexually abused, typically before a certain age, then they were more likely to struggle in marriage with wanting to completely avoid sex. But then if it was after a certain age, that it was completely opposite where they maybe used sex to medicate, or they were very aggressive and even would act out, let's say in single years, that they would sleep around with a bunch of partners if they had been wounded.
And so, I just think it just, it helps us to not be judgmental of one another. We don't know the full story.
Dr. Juli Slattery: (20:20 – 21:09) Yes. Yeah. There's always more there than we usually realize at first. And, you know, this plays out a lot in marriage because there are a lot of women who are married to guys who are addicted to pornography. And that's a deeply painful dynamic. That's really hard.
But to understand that your husband didn't want to have this struggle, often doesn't know how to get out of it, you know, gives you compassion. It doesn't mean that you look the other way, you need to get help, and you need to insist on getting help. But it does give you empathy and compassion that there's something underlying this and feeding it. It's not just, “Oh, I think I'm going to, you know, look at porn and hurt my wife again,” that there's always a deeper dynamic at work.
Laura Dugger: (21:10 – 21:50) Absolutely. And even an example from your book, I'll just read a quote where you said, “I spoke with a man who runs a sexual addiction program. He told me he had never met someone with sexual addiction, who did not also have significant sexual or psychological trauma in their past.”
And I think it goes along with what we're saying. But if we also then flip it and look at more of the positive side, how can we rightly prioritize connection and intimacy in marriage as God intended?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (21:53 – 24:24) I think first of all, we need to be convinced that this is worth it. You know, when we look at everything there is to do in life, there's so many worthy demands on our time. You know, from I want my house to look nice, and we need to make friends and we need to be an outreach to our community. And our kids are taking a lot of time and they should, and they've got all their activities and our church needs our help. Like when do you have time to do all this? And then, oh yeah, prioritize your marriage.
And I think we have to become convinced that if we're not working on our marriage, and specifically if we're not working on the sexual connection in marriage, then all those other things have the potential to fall apart. That the way I've learned it over time is that sex is never going to be a neutral issue in your marriage. It's either going to be something that is bonding you together and causing you to work on the deeper levels of intimacy, even as you talk through sexual difficulties, or it's going to be something not immediately, but over time, that becomes a wedge between you.
It might start as a wedge of resentment of my needs aren't getting met, or I feel like you're objectifying me or you're putting pressure on me. Or it might be a deeper wedge of a pornography addiction or something that's not being addressed. Or I don't trust my husband because of my trauma. And those things don't just stay dormant. The wedge becomes bigger and bigger and bigger until you get to the place where now you're not comfortable being in the same room anymore and you feel like roommates. And then now one of you is attracted to somebody else and the story plays on.
And there are very wonderful godly men and women who have gotten married with every purpose to stay together. But a wedge like this has grown over time to the point where they're now thinking about divorce or one of them has cheated on the other. And so, we have to be convinced that honoring God in our lives means prioritizing our marriage, and it means working on this intimate aspect of our marriage so that we can be a stable foundation for our families and our churches and our communities.
Laura Dugger: (24:26 – 24:39) And so, if we're getting as practical as possible, what are the best practices that you've seen in married couples who are happily married? How have you experienced that?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (24:40 – 28:04) Yeah. I'll put it in kind of like a cliche sort of way because I think sometimes that's catchy. Number one, I would say they're couples who will resist the drift, who will repair the rift, and who will adjust to the shift.
So, I can kind of break that down a little bit. But you know, the first thing is resisting the drift of you can go weeks without meaningfully connecting with your spouse. And I don't just mean sexually, but I mean like eye to eye, you know, just loving touch, just connecting to their hearts. And so, couples who know how to resist that drift, like they have regular times built into their calendar where this is where we connect every day. Like even for 10 minutes, this is where we hold each other's hands, we look at each other in the eye, we really connect with what's in your heart, how are you? And they have regular rhythms of once a week or once every other week, we're going to go out and do something fun together, just the two of us. We've worked through what sex looks like in this season. Like how many times do we want to have sex? Are we scheduling that? How are we making sure that's a priority? And so, that's the resisting the drift.
And the second one is repairing the rift. And at every marriage, there are going to be things that tear you apart. And sometimes those things might be sexual in nature, like a temptation, an emotional affair, pornography use, sometimes it's going to be something else where you have a deep disagreement that you can't resolve on your own. And you need to be courageous enough to reach out for help and say, like, if we don't get help, if we don't address this issue, like it's going to become something that tears us apart. Any couple that you meet who is happily married for like 30 years or more, they can tell you a story of when they had a rift, and the kind of help that really address that.
And then I think the third thing is adjusting to the shift. And in even the normal stages of marriage, there are shifts that happen. Like, you know, I'm in the stage right now where me and the people my age are going through biological changes with menopause and with aging. And, you know, some people are going through becoming grandparents and retirement. And there's all these shifts that are happening even naturally. There's other couples that are younger who are going through the shift of pregnancy and battling infertility. And some people are going through cancer. And there are things that happen that require you to shift your expectations. And to not just wish that it is like it used to be. But this is the marriage we have now. Here are the circumstances we have now. Here are the bodies we have now. How do we learn to love each other and embrace this season, given the changes that we're experiencing?
And so, I think that's a framework that I've seen healthy couples navigate over time that really fosters intimacy.
Laura Dugger: (28:05 – 29:29) That is incredible. I love how you put that. And I've shared with you before that my background is in Christian sex therapy. So, sex is a topic that does come up a lot and people feel comfortable sharing or asking questions. So, just in regular conversation, I want to recap two conversations that kind of show stances on both ends of the spectrum.
And I'd love to hear your wisdom on how to respond to each one.
So, first, there was a Christian married woman with children, and she was teaching younger women to say yes to every single sexual advance from their husband. And she said, “If your husband has the higher drive, and he wants to have sex twice a day, then consider yourself lucky. And don't ever say no, because your body is not your own.” Yeah, it's hard to recap. So, this is not my perspective. So, sharing both ends.
So, that was one person. And then on the other end, I've heard a woman tell me, “You know, I just didn't feel like having sex for about a year and a half after we had our baby. So, I just told my husband, you're going to have to wait.”
So, loaded question, but Dr. Juli, how would you respond to each of those?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (29:29 – 32:31) Well, Laura, I feel like you probably would have just as good of response as I would to those. Yeah, I like that you're presenting those as two extremes, because they are two extremes. And I think both extremes kind of miss the heart. We want to be able to say yes to sex and intimacy. And being able to say yes means also being able to say no.
In that first situation, essentially, what is going to end up happening is that that wife is going to start feeling like my husband wants me for sex. And I don't have the capacity to enjoy it twice a day. I'm starting to feel like an object or used. And the husband is never going to learn that covenant love requires self-denial. And at every level, you know, what did, what did Paul say to husbands in Ephesians 5, like love your wife as you love your own body and be willing to lay down your, your life for your wife. And that means being sensitive to the fact that she doesn't have the same sexual appetite as you do. She doesn't have the same biology you do, that it actually can be physically painful, emotionally traumatic for a wife to have sex when she's not physically ready. Really, that couple is not working on intimacy. They're, they're kind of reinforcing a pattern that sex is about the husband getting his needs and desires met only through the wife without considering her. And that might work for short term, but that's not building intimacy in the long term. And it's not teaching either of them. And that wife needs to learn her own sexual desires and patterns and be able to communicate those to her husband. So, that's what I would say in that first one.
And the second one, essentially, you have a wife kind of having that more selfish perspective of, I only have sex when I want it and on my terms, instead of considering the husband. And, you know, how do I focus on him? How do I work on experiencing sexual desire? How do I foster that? Because it's important for my husband, it's important for our marriage. And I don't want to be selfish.
And so, I think both of those situations are kind of approaching sex where one person gets to be selfish, and the other person has to sacrifice. That's ministry, that's not intimacy. And so, we really want to be at a place where both of us, the higher desire one and the lower desire one, are learning what does it look like to really love well, to love sacrificially and to communicate the ways that I feel loved. I don't know, what would you add to that or change?
Laura Dugger: (32:31 – 33:11) That's why I asked you, you said that beautifully, better than I could have responded. And again, you're getting back to the heart of it and pointing us back to Jesus with each answer. And, you know, commonly people do struggle with having a safe place where they can ask candid questions about sex.
So, I am going to throw some more at you. And some of these are ones that you wrote about. But just to give us a little taste, even of the book, or if somebody has a burning question like this, I'd love your healthy response.
So, how do you respond when people ask, “How far is too far to go in a dating relationship?”
Dr. Juli Slattery: (33:14 – 36:32) Yeah, I think people are looking for a line, you know, like, as long as I don't cross this line, are we good? And of course, I think their traditional line would be as long as you're not having intercourse. But I think that misses the larger context of the purpose of sex. I've had to be convicted of this in my own life. And we talked very early in our conversation about how we've just sort of ingested messages from the culture. And the culture says that healthy sexuality is an expression of how I feel, right? So, so if I feel safe with you, if I feel romantically connected to you, if I feel sexually attracted to you, then it would be healthy for me to engage sexually with you. And then Christians would come and say, yes, but as long as you don't cross this line. So, that's sort of the narrative that I think a lot of us have heard in the church.
But if we look at, from a biblical perspective, God did not design sex to be an expression of how I feel. Okay, let that sink in for a minute. God did not design sex to be an expression of how I feel. He designed it to be a seal and a celebration of covenant, of the choice that a man and a woman make to covenant their lives to one another. And for them to say, just like I give you my whole life, I promise faithfulness to you. I promise that we are becoming one as a family. We have now a physical way to symbolize that in becoming one with our bodies. And so, even if I feel romantically attached to somebody I'm not married to, I don't act on that. Or even if I don't feel romantically attached to my husband, we work on our sex life because we're in covenant.
And so, when you begin to understand sex from that standpoint, you answer that question differently of how far can I go? Why are you sharing your body with another person when you haven't shared your life with them? And, you know, I think that the standard is not legalistic, but the heart of the question is a lot, that's a harder question. You know, like it says, and I think 2 Thessalonians or 1 Thessalonians, you know, Paul says, the will of God is that you do not engage in sexual immorality. Don't take advantage of a brother or sister.
And how many times in dating relationships do you look back and you're like, “Wow, I gave too much of myself to that person or I took too much of myself from that person. Like we engaged in things that now we're broken apart. Like I wish I could take back.” And so, what does it look like to honor each other? What does it look like to honor the Lord? So, I think those kinds of questions help you get to the heart of how do we steward dating relationships a lot better than looking for a line we're not supposed to cross.
Laura Dugger: (36:33 – 37:31) When was the first time you listened to an episode of The Savvy Sauce? How did you hear about our podcast? Did a friend share it with you? Will you be willing to be that friend now and text five other friends or post on your socials anything about The Savvy Sauce that you love? If you share your favorite episodes, that is how we continue to expand our reach and get the good news of Jesus Christ in more ears across the world.
So, we need your help.
Another way to help us grow is to leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. Each of these suggestions will cost you less than a minute, but it will be a great benefit to us. Thank you so much for being willing to be generous with your time and share. We appreciate you.
As Christ followers, should we use a friend's preferred names and pronouns? So, how would you respond to that?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (37:32 – 39:20) Boy, this is a hot topic. There are people who have really strong opinions on this. You're saying, do I use a friend's preferred names and pronouns?
And I think the fact that you have a friendship means that you can have a deeper conversation about the meaning of the names and pronouns. And I think that deeper conversation needs to happen. Because, you know, ultimately we don't like, we don't want to just say, “Oh yeah, whatever you want to call yourself is fine with me. Truth doesn't matter.” But on the other hand, we really want to get to the spiritual issue underneath this. And there's a, there's a big difference between somebody who doesn't know the Lord, doesn't know where you stand on any of this, and somebody that you can engage in a conversation with and seek wisdom on.
I think there, there's probably more latitude to use somebody's preferred name than pronouns. And I think in friendships, sometimes you can work that through and just say, you know, “Hey, I love you. I understand where you're coming from. I'm going to try my best to use the name that you're asking. But the pronoun is something that I'm not comfortable with. And here's why. And just like I'm, I want to understand where you are. I hope that you would have grace and understand where I am.” So, in a friendship, you're able to have those kinds of conversations. Whereas if it's a coworker or it's a stranger or a neighbor, sometimes we can't have that level of conversation. And so, I, we might choose to handle the situation a little differently.
Laura Dugger: (39:21 – 39:36) That's good. A hundred percent truth, a hundred percent love or kindness. And what if somebody asks, how much attention should we be giving these secondary issues as believers?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (39:39 – 41:03) Boy, I, I think first of all, the secondary issues come out of the primary issues. So, the primary issue, and you know, the issue I wrote Surrendered Sexuality is about is if my life belongs to the Lord, then my whole life needs to belong to Him, including how I think about cultural issues, including how I treat my neighbor.
And so, I don't see them as secondary issues. I see them as an outgrowth of the primary issue. I think when they become secondary issues are when we argue with other believers about it and it becomes the most important thing. Like I put you in a category based on, will you use preferred names and pronouns? And then I think we're missing what God calls us to.
The primary issue is that we want to honor God and we want to love each other. And so, let's keep going back to that primary issue. How do I love my neighbor well? How do I honor God's truth well? How do I pursue unity within the body of Christ well, as we're navigating some of these secondary issues? So, you know, like if we're going back to the primary issue, it means that we have to talk about the secondary issues, but we talk about them in light of what's primary.
Laura Dugger: (41:04 – 41:17) I like that. And I just have three more of these kind of tricky questions. So, another one, does pornography addiction qualify as reasons for a biblical divorce?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (41:20 – 42:50) I would say, first of all, technically, if we look at the word for sexual immorality in the scripture, which is porneia, we would say, yeah, you know, pornography does qualify for that.
But for the person who's asking this, maybe the woman who's asking this, I would say, why do you want to get out of the marriage? And what Jesus said is Moses permitted divorce because of the hardness of your heart. And I think a more important question is where's your heart and where's your husband's heart? Because I've seen people with pornography addictions who have really open hearts towards healing, and they're willing to get the help that they need. They're repentant. They're willing to do the work. They're willing to go through even a time of separation to show that they're serious about that work.
And then there are people who have very hard hearts of, “This is who I am. I might go through the motions, but I'm really not interested in change.” And so, I think the pornography addiction is less the issue than the posture of the person's heart and their willingness to work. And if your spouse is willing to work, then I think it's on us to have soft hearts too, and to be open to the work that God can do.
Laura Dugger: (42:51 – 43:34) That's good because saying you have to zoom out and see more of the story in that stance, because that's very different. Somebody who's working on it and hates the struggle and is wanting to break free versus being married to a narcissist who is abusing you and treating you in a certain way and addicted to pornography. So, you point out well that all of these questions have more to them.
Okay. So, two more, if a spouse has had an emotional affair in the past with a coworker, but they still work with this person, what is the wise thing to do and how should they handle it if their spouse is uncomfortable with them still working there?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (43:36 – 44:33) Yeah, boy, that's something that I would want to seek counseling on. You and your spouse really need to get with a counselor and talk that through. The generic advice in that situation would be to get a different job, to not have that relationship still a temptation or available.
But there are sometimes very extenuating circumstances where that's not a possibility, or at least for now, that's not a possibility. And so, I would really encourage you to meet with a third party to sort through the details of your particular situation. Because it could be that your spouse isn't willing to take that hard step of cutting off that relationship, or it could be that they're willing, but again, there's extenuating circumstances. And I would really want a wise person who is engaging with you to help you navigate that.
Laura Dugger: (44:34 – 44:44) But I love that, how you highlight that something to look for though, is that you would hope your spouse would be willing to make that right, especially if they were the offending.
Dr. Juli Slattery: (44:46 – 44:46) Okay.
Laura Dugger: (44:47 – 45:00) And then also, Juli, because scripture does talk about turning the other cheek, does that mean it's the same as saying God expects you to stay in an abusive marriage?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (45:02 – 47:41) Absolutely not. If you were in an abusive marriage, you are not doing your spouse any good. You are allowing your spouse to be in a place where they're destroying their own life and they're destroying the people that they love.
Now you say, okay, where biblically do we see this? We see that Jesus, he says in John, he says, “I laid down my life for my sheep. I lay it down willingly. No one has the authority to take it from me. I have the authority to lay it down and I have the authority to take it up again.” And we see Him living that out with religious leaders who were after Him all the time, who wanted to stone Him, who were accusing Him of things. It says over and over again that Jesus escaped from them. He just got out of there until it was time that the Father said, now is the time for you to give yourself for the world.
So, we take that principle and we say, Jesus was not abused. Jesus did not let Himself be abused. He gave Himself as a lamb to the slaughter as a sacrifice for the Father and for the world. But that's very different. Up until that time, we see Him have great boundaries. We see Him not get, it even says He didn't entrust Himself to man because He knew what was in their hearts. I mean, He had boundaries with people that could have hurt Him.
And I also love when we see this in the story of King David and Saul, when Saul is chasing David, Saul is abusive, right? He wants to kill David. And so, David escapes. And there's a situation where David has the power or the opportunity to kill Saul and he doesn't do it. And then Saul just is struck by his conscience, and he comes back to David. He goes, “You're a better man than I am. I'm so sorry. You know, come back with me and I'll treat you well.” And even though David doesn't take revenge, he doesn't go back with Saul. He's still, he's like, “You go your way. I'll go my way. I'm going to let the Lord judge between us.”
And I think that's a great model. If you're in any kind of abusive relationship, you don't take revenge, but you also don't stay in that situation. You go your way, let them go their way, and you let God judge between you. And I think we see that over and over again in scripture.
Laura Dugger: (47:42 – 48:19) I think that is so well said. And it reminds me of a somewhat recent conversation in 2025 with Stacey Womack who's saying with domestic violence, really the way God would see it is child abuse. And that kind of helps our paradigm because we are His child.
And she elaborates on that. So, I said that that was the last one, but I actually thought of one more as it relates to our children.
So, is it reasonable to assume that once a child has a smartphone, 100% of them will be exposed to pornography?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (48:21 – 49:15) Yeah, it is. And I would say not just once they have a smartphone, because I know with one of my kids, we delayed the smartphone decision, but he had a learning disability that required him to have an iPad for school. And somehow, even though we locked down all the apps, somehow he's able to access it through that. Or it can be a gaming system, or it can be a friend's phone. And so, having a smartphone or device like that certainly makes it more probable.
But you know, like our kids are surrounded by screens and technology, not just what's in our home, but in other people's homes and at school. And so, I think it's safe to assume, unfortunately, that yes, 100% of our kids are going to be exposed to pornography, probably by the time they're 13 or 14.
Laura Dugger: (49:16 – 49:31) And sadly, some much younger than that. But even if there's parental controls, or filters put on, it is just something on my heart that we have to be so vigilant against.
Dr. Juli Slattery: (49:32 – 50:12) Yeah, no, I felt like when, you know, I have three boys, and when they were all three kind of in those teen years, I felt like I was trying to plug holes in a boat, and there'd be new ones popping up all the time. Whether it's like apps, or you know, things that you think are completely safe. Somehow, pornography can get through.
And our kids are smart, like they know the workarounds to the parental things. And that's why we just need to have conversation after conversation, just discipling them, not just protecting them from pornography, but discipling them through what they're inevitably going to be exposed to.
Laura Dugger: (50:13 – 51:05) That's a great point that not just being reactive, but proactive. I think why I have such a heart for this is because practicing and doing therapy and having so many people come in those wounds, that if that addiction gets a stronghold, and that pornography use, it just can wreak havoc in people long term. And so, if we can do that hard work of discipling early on, it is such a blessing to our children, to the generation.
So, I'm just so grateful for your candid responses. And I think it's also a helpful reminder just to never take on a burden that was never meant for us to carry. So, are there any ways that God has taught you to not try and do His business?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (51:07 – 52:16) Yeah. Boy, that's such a great question. I've had to come to the conclusion that I can't convince anyone of right and wrong. You know, like, I can't convince anyone that pornography is wrong, or gay marriage is wrong, or you know, like, that's not my job. My job is to walk with the Lord with integrity and faithfulness and to testify as to who He is.
And so much of this work, whether we're talking about marriage or our friends or our children, so much of this work has to be the Lord's work. And you reach a stage with your kids when they hit those teen years, where you realize the things my kids most need, I can't give them. I can't give them a relationship with God. I can't give them the desire to follow and seek the Lord. Like, I can model that for them. I can encourage them. But that is between them and the Lord. And if I try to control that, I'm just getting in the way of the work that God wants to do in their lives.
Laura Dugger: (52:18 – 52:33) Goodness, I will need to write that down and reflect on that. That is so good, Juli. And there's still so much more that you could share with us.
So, where is your preferred place that we can go online and continue learning from you?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (52:34 – 52:48) Yeah, I would say two places. Number one, our website is authenticintimacy.com. And the second one is the podcast that I do called Java with Juli. It goes along with The Savvy Sauce, you know, like they kind of go together.
Laura Dugger: (52:49 – 53:11) Yes, absolutely. We will certainly link to all of that in the show notes for today's episode.
And you're familiar, I've asked you many times before, because we are called savvy, because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. So, as my final question for you today, Dr. Juli, what is your savvy sauce?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (53:13 – 53:58) Oh, I don't even remember how I answered this the last few times. I think I may have said this before, but I think reading the dead old guys is one of my savvy sauce, like reading people who didn't live in this generation who loved the Lord.
And learning from them is just, that's probably taught me more discernment than anything, because they just cut right through the cultural noise that I think sometimes can blind us. And they really help me see my heart for what it is and help me really want to pursue God at a deeper level.
Laura Dugger: (53:59 – 54:03) Wow. Any specific recommendations that have been personal favorites there?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (54:04 – 54:22) Yeah, I love A.W. Tozer. I love many of Andrew Murray's books, particularly Humility and Absolute Surrender. And C.S. Lewis is another great one, Mere Christianity. So, those are some that I would recommend you start with.
Laura Dugger: (54:23 – 54:44) That is wonderful. Thank you for sharing that.
And Juli, it's just always such a delight to get to share an hour of conversation with you. And you are just this beautiful mixture of bold and gentle and humble, all combined into one. So, thank you for being my returning guest today.
Dr. Juli Slattery: (54:44 – 54:49) Oh, thank you. And it's such a pleasure to be with you. Thanks for your great questions.
Laura Dugger: (54:51 – 58:33) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.
This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.
Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.
Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.
First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.
You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Feb 16, 2026
Monday Feb 16, 2026
*Disclaimer* This episode contains adult content and is not recommended for young listeners.
Hebrews 12:15 NLT “Look after each other so that none of you fails to receive the grace of God. Watch out that no poisonous root of bitterness grows up to trouble you, corrupting many.”
*Transcription Below*
About Dr. Morgan Cutlip:
It's hard to know where to start so I'll start with what matters most to me and that's my relationships.
I'm a mother to two kids, Effie (12) and Roy (9). They are hilarious, spirited, spicy, deeply thoughtful and emotional kids. I adore them and being their mother. They've challenged me in the most surprising and wonderful ways. I'm married to my high school sweetheart, Chad. I always feel like I lose a little street cred when I say that so, for the record, we didn't date that entire time and eventually reconnected years after college on MySpace (yup, now I've aged myself). He's the love of my life, an incredible man that loves others deeply, works so very hard, and continues to be open to growth and change.
I’ve worked in the field of relationship education for over 15 years alongside my father, Dr. John Van Epp, who is the founder of Love Thinks and developer of multiple relationship education courses that have been taught to over a million people worldwide. I started traveling to conferences with him when I was in junior high and so, in many ways, it feels like I’ve grown up in the relationship education field. He’s amazing and brilliant and I’m blessed to have learned so much from him over the years we worked together and just cherish our relationship.
I distinctly remember a conversation with my dad over 20 years ago where I said that someday I wanted to support women, but I just wasn’t sure how.
Fast forward 10 years and Effie (our oldest) was born and, holy moly, did motherhood hit me like a ton of bricks and I completely lost myself in motherhood (you can read the full story in my book). 🙂 I knew that one day when I came out of the fog of early motherhood I wanted to do something to help moms navigate it better.
I had a lot of skill and practice translating psychological theory, research, and concepts into tangible and practical advice so I got to work creating accessible content to help moms navigate their relationship with their kids, partners, and themselves differently.
Through my career, I created the My Love Thinks blog, the @DrMorganCutlip Instagram, the Love Thinks Podcast, and The Mother Load course along with other courses, workshops, and targeted eGuides and authored the book Love Your Kids Without Losing Yourself: 5 Steps to Banish Guilt & Beat Burnout When You Already Have Too Much to Do. These tools have been accessed by hundreds of thousands of women worldwide.
Dr. Morgan’s Website
Thank you to Our Sponsor: Francie Hinrichsen, Founder of Founding Females and Author of Dream, Build, Grow
Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce:
7 Easy Changes to Enhance Your Sexual Intimacy in Marriage with Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner
269 Questions for More Connection and Laughter in Marriage with Casey and Meygan Caston
Other Podcast Mentioned:
132. Pursuing Your God-Given Dream with Francie Hinrichsen
Related Article from Savvy Snacks:
Marriage Scripture I am Loving
Topics and Questions We Discuss:
- Will you define mental load and walk us through the reasons why it’s silently crushing marriages today…and will you also explain why universally, mothers are the ones impacted the most?
- What’s the correlation between sharing the mental load and enjoying a more exhilarating sex life in marriage?
- What’s the vision you can cast for us if we put systems in place to habitually converse about mental load in marriage, even if it feels cumbersome at first?
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
*Transcription*
Music: (0:00 - 0:10)
Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 2:06) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
If you are looking to start a business or side hustle, but you're not sure how to begin, I want to encourage you to pick up your copy of Dream, Build, Grow: A Female's Step-by-Step Guide for How to Start a Business. You can find it at foundingfemalesco.com.
First of all, I want to wish a very happy birthday to my amazing husband, Mark. I hope it's an awesome day, and thank you, babe, for leading this part of our marriage so well. I love you so much and hope it's a great day.
Today, I get to interview Dr. Morgan Cutlip, and she's a relationship expert and an author. And this second book that she released is entitled A Better Share: How Couples Can Tackle the Mental Load for More Fun, Less Resentment, and Great Sex. We're going to dive into each of those subcategories, and this chat is amazing for both husbands and wives.
And I think it's going to leave you with motivation and ideas rather than any shame or resentment. So especially if you're parents, I hope you listen in. Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Morgan.
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (1:54 – 1:56) Thank you so much for having me.
Laura Dugger: (1:57 – 2:06) I'd love to just start here, because you're a relationship expert. What does your daily life in work actually look like?
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (2:07 - 3:07) Oh, my God. No one has ever asked me this. Okay, so we have two kids.
I'm married, been married for 17 years. We just celebrated our anniversary, and we have two kids, 12 and 9, and we do a homeschool hybrid. So, my work life, it might look like I work a lot, but it's usually cramming it into weird times.
But they go to an academy or a school with other homeschool families three days a week. So, Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays are the days that I try to do all of the things and get all of my work done. And then Mondays and Fridays, I am with the kids.
And then my husband travels just about every week for work. So, a lot of times I'm sort of just cruising solo and outsourcing as much as I can handle and can afford and feel okay about and just trying to squeeze as much out of my time and my energy that I can.
Laura Dugger: (3:08 - 3:14) I love it, and I'm relating. I'm a homeschooling mom as well, so fitting it all in when you can.
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (3:15 – 3:16) Yes, yes.
Laura Dugger: (3:17 – 3:22) And then those days that you are working or doing writing or different things, what does your work life look like?
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (3:23 - 4:06) Yeah, so usually, you know, right now I just finished launching my second book. So, I'm really trying to move a little slower, take a little break. I launched two books in three years, wrote them and launched them.
And so, it felt like a really just an extended season of just constant time famine and busyness. So right now, my work life is doing interviews like this. I'm working on developing some new courses.
I've developed two so far. I'm working on another one right now, launching those, creating some content, doing workshops. I'm speaking at a conference this weekend.
So, it varies every single week what my work life looks like.
Laura Dugger: (4:06 - 4:32) Very real picture. And I loved in your last book just how you define mental load. So, can you give us a definition of mental load and walk us through the reasons why it seems to be silently crushing marriages today and why it is that universally mothers are typically the ones who suffer the most?
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (4:33 - 8:23) Yeah, so I'm just going to give if we need to go into a deeper definition, I will as we're chatting. So, I'm just going to give the 30,000-foot definition and then answer your other questions. So, the mental load is the seemingly never-ending running to do list that we carry around in our minds.
It has two key components. The first is that the majority of tasks in the mental load are invisible. The invisibility of these tasks makes it really hard to explain to our partners to get appreciation around for it even to be seen by members of our family and to outsource.
The second aspect is that the mental load takes up cognitive real estate. So, this just means that it takes up space in our brains that tends to crowd out energy and space that we need for other things like patients, like being present, remembering things. You know, a lot of us will say, oh, I have mom brain, you don't know, I put my keys.
Well, a lot of times it's because we have so much of our brain space occupied by other things. We're sort of become a bit more forgetful. It can crowd out space for creative energy and in relationships, it can crowd out the space to really find our desire around our sexual life.
So, the mental load is interesting because it's talked about on social media as a women's issue. But everybody has a mental load. This is not something that is unique to women.
Where it is unique to women is that in home and family life, the majority of tasks associated with the mental load is carried by women. And so even though women are working in massive amounts outside of the home or inside of the home or have side hustles or full-time jobs, we're still doing the majority of the labor involved in the mental load. And so, what happens in our relationships is that it starts to develop into a feeling of unfairness.
A lot of times the women tend to start to feel very overwhelmed. And then this unfairness starts to breed resentment. And one of the most common cycles that I see happening in relationships is that usually really kicks in after kids.
So mental load exists before kids, after kids, it gets real big, really fast. And it's that the woman will feel like her life has shifted in a pretty significant and just like palpable way. While her partners has sort of stayed relatively the same, even though that's not entirely true, but it feels that way.
And eventually she'll reach a place where she kind of gets, you know, depending on how comfortable she feels sharing what's going on with her. She gets overwhelmed. She approaches her partner.
Her partner doesn't fully understand it. Some of the most common and unfortunate responses are getting defensive around it. You know, I do a lot too.
You're saying I don't do enough. It's never enough for you. Minimizing it or the sort of hardship Olympics where the two people start competing around who's doing more.
And so over time she learns that she can't talk about this with her partner without going through all of that rigmarole. And so, she either starts to get louder, which shifts their marital dynamic in a really significant way because she becomes the nagging mother and he's the child she's sort of chasing after. Or she shoves it down and distance and disconnection really starts to take root.
And it's unfortunate because a lot of times, even though she's come to him, he still doesn't quite maybe understand what's going on. And so, both partners start to really disconnect. And it becomes, once you get years down the line, it can become hard to understand where this disconnection really originated from.
I think I'm missing a question in there, but I'm going to pause.
Laura Dugger: (8:24 - 8:34) No, you actually conquered all of those. Why it is that mothers have it and what the definition is and why it's silently crushing marriages.
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (8:34 - 12:18) Yeah, I'm happy to go into a little bit why women tend to carry it because I think it's really important to understand how this happens. I have a really strong belief that when it comes to this area of our relationships, we really need to come at it with a goal of understanding each other's perspectives, how these things developed, how we got to where we are. So that we can sort of depersonalize some of the patterns that have developed in our relationship and actually then confront them as a team.
So, part of the reason women tend to carry the mental load, there's several, I'll just cover a couple. But one is the socialization of women and just our society, which is that women are socialized to self-sacrifice for the preservation of our relationships. Men are socialized to provide financial and physical security.
So, what this means is that we enter into our relationships once they're committed and then parenthood with different set of priorities. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying this is what tends to happen.
And also, society holds us to standards around these different priorities. So, I remember not that long ago, our son was going to an event at school in the evening and it was cold and it was raining. And I was like, grab your coat.
And he kept arguing with me and he finally said, “Mom, I'm not going to wear it. So, then I'll probably lose it, which then you'll be upset with me for losing it. And I'm not wearing it anyway.”
And so, I was like, thanks for having some insight into yourself. But you know, the moms are going to see you freezing your butt off in the rain and they'll be like, why didn't his mom give him a coat? They're not asking why his dad didn't.
So, we're held to different standards around different areas. And so, we hold ourselves to these different sets of expectations around home and family life, how the kids are cared for, how the home's maintained. It's usually where women tend to focus, whereas men are like, I got to provide, you know, all these things.
And so that I say the game is rigged. That sets us up to really focus on different areas of our relationship. The second thing that I think happens is that because women are this way and there's also physiological component, but I want to talk about that piece, but because women are socialized this way, we tend to do things in our relationships way back when, even in dating, out of love and out of care for our partners.
And the first time we do it, usually our partner is really grateful. “You're the best. What would I do without you? You're awesome.” And it feels good to give, which is wonderful. It's a beautiful thing.
The second time we do it, they're like, “Gee, thanks.” The third time they're not even recognizing it. It's invisible.
We have taken it on, and it has become removed from our partner's awareness. And now we own it. We do this, especially before kids, over and over and over again in our relationships.
We take something on. There's no discussion. There's no negotiation.
And so, our plates pile up pretty full. I often refer to women as the bounty quicker picker uppers. We're super absorbent.
So, we get really saturated by soaking all these things up. And then kids enter the picture. And overnight, the amount of responsibilities grow exponentially.
And then we reach a point where we're like, we can't do all this. How come you don't see all these things that need done when we've been doing it all these years? And it's not placing blame.
It's just pointing out a pattern that's pretty benign, pretty typical that we have to learn how to walk back in our relationships.
Laura Dugger: (12:19 - 13:05) It's so good. And as we're learning how to walk back in our relationships and navigate this, I love how you define kind of a vision for us on page five, where you talk about how you help couples to experience, I'll quote you, “greater feelings of love, attraction, trust, commitment, reliability, and usually a way more exhilarating sex life. All from simply handling this mental load in a way that works for both of them.”
So, Dr. Morgan, can you give some examples and share how we can do this in marriage, kind of moving to some of the solutions once we've identified this problem?
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (13:07 - 15:52) Yeah, I mean, there's a lot to unpack around the solutions. So, I'll give a big picture one and then I'm happy to give like a really practical one. But one of the biggest is that couples have to learn how to talk about this area of their relationship without it spiraling into any sort of argument.
And the reason is, is because the mental is not going anywhere. You know, we keep trying to like solve it. This is one small example of how we handle everything in society.
It seems like we're trying to find that permanent fix. But the reality is, is that life changes every single day. New demands are thrown on our plates; curve balls come our way.
And so, it changes the demand and the intensity of the mental load. And so, if we're in a relationship, we have to be able to regularly touch base about these things and negotiate who's handling what. We have to be able to do that in a way that feels like we're in it together.
And so, one of the perspectives that I have that's maybe a little bit different than what's out there currently on this topic is that we have to approach the mental load as the shared enemy in our relationship. So, you externalize that. So, if you're going to talk to your partner, instead of saying something along the lines of like, you really need to step it up.
You're not doing enough. You don't, don't you see what needs done? I really need you to help more.
I'm, I'm drowning over here. Like, what's, what are you doing? I'm doing all these things.
It is a much more productive conversation. If we come to the table and we say, listen, as you notice, I have kind of an intensity about me. I'm stressed out a lot.
I'm overwhelmed. I don't like to live this way. I'm sure I'm not as much fun to be around.
And part of what's going on with me is something that has a name and it's called the mental load. And it is just relentless for modern families today. The amount of pressure to be productive, the amount of responsibilities on our plates, it is never ending.
And I know you feel this too, but the way that we're handling it right now in our relationship is it's not really working for me. I'm feeling so bogged down that I don't feel like I can show up as my best self in our relationship and in our family. And I want to talk about how we as a team can navigate this aspect of our lives differently.
Like, are you willing to have that conversation? And I think that approach can help to diffuse. I mean, it might not be as satisfying if you're in a place of being really angry about this.
And a lot of people are. And it's totally understandable. But that will often diffuse a lot of the defensiveness that could potentially arise in this conversation and help the conversation get to a better place.
Laura Dugger: (15:53 - 16:20) Oh, that's good. And can you share a story, even a personal one that I've heard you mention before, related to one time when you were anticipating a date night only to get this truth bomb dropped on you? I'm asking this in part because elaborating from that quote, it ties into that correlation between mental load and exhilarating sex life for males.
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (16:20 - 20:25) Yes. Now, I'm like, did I talk about this in the book? I can't remember.
I've talked about this before, though. Yeah. So, this is funny.
I shared this actually at a conference and my dad spoke at the conference. He was in the audience and had to listen to this story. And he's like, wow, you're comfortable sharing.
Like, I guess I am. OK, so my husband and I, this was several years ago, but we're sort of in that season where it was really hard to get out for a date night. And he something I'd wanted for a long time was him to initiate one.
So, he initiated the date night. I was really excited. We go to this nice restaurant.
He sits me down and he says something along the lines of, you know, I have to talk to you about something. And my husband's a man of few words. So, and I like to obviously, like, talk about a lot of things and talk a lot and unpack stuff and analyze it.
And so, when he said that, I immediately was excited. I was like, ooh, you know what he got for me? Let's go.
Like, let's have this conversation. And it was not what I expected. But what he said to me was, I'm not that happy with our sex life.
And, you know, in our relationship and I think about, you know, all of the things that I've learned and I've studied. And I know how important sex is to marriage and to my husband specifically. And I have a lower desire than he does.
And so, I keep track. I keep track of how often we have sex because I want to make sure that we're like hitting the target. And so, I remember like I was like really working hard overtime to sort of squash my defensiveness in this moment.
And I said, you know, I, I got to tell you, I feel like we're kind of having a lot of sex. And, you know, I've grown women talk. I know how much we're having.
And he's like, you know, it's not that it isn't good. And it's not that it's not enough. It's that it just doesn't always seem like you want me.
And so it was, it was like, it's kind of make light of it. But I'm like, it's an enthusiasm issue. Like he wanted more enthusiasm from me, and which is understandable.
And so, this, you know, conversation didn't end over dinner, kind of carried on through the rest of the night. It was not; it was not my favorite date night. You know, it wasn't the most enjoyable.
And we kind of unpacked it and we sort of; it was one of those conversations that we had to come back to a couple times. And I had to self-reflect on, you know, what is going on with my enthusiasm? Because I enjoy having sex with my husband, but there's truth to what he's saying.
And I really was honest with myself. Yeah, I'm like checking a box. You know, I'm keeping track.
And part of the conversation that was had was, and it's not meant to be tip for tap, but it was more like this is an insight I'm having, which is that I am not feeling as if you are showing much enthusiasm in our relationship around pursuing me. And in our home and family life around pursuing initiative taking, expressing appreciation. I'm not feeling good about our relationship outside the bedroom.
And so, our relationship inside the bedroom is not something that's exciting me. And we both had to step into that work. And he did in a major way.
And so, did I. And, you know, our sex life is not separate from our relationship as a whole. And I think it's really important that people understand that because a relationship that's suffering inside the bedroom will pour out outside the bedroom like it was for my husband and vice versa.
So, yeah.
Laura Dugger: (20:25 - 23:32) Thank you so much for being open about that. I'm first of all just wondering how many people think, wow, she just articulated something true in our marriage or for husbands to unlock that connection between the emotional or relational part of the marriage and intimate part.
Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
Are you starting a business or side hustle this year? There is a book I love, and I want to personally recommend because it takes the guesswork out of what to do next. It's entitled Dream, Build, Grow: A Female's Step-by-Step Guide for How to Start a Business.
And it's available at foundingfemalesco.com. That's foundingfemalesco.com.
With over 300 pages of proven business tips and tricks, Dream, Build, Grow: A Female's Step-by-Step Guide for How to Start a Business is perfect for anyone searching for how to start a business from the ground up. It is written by Francie Heinrichson, who is an entrepreneur and my personal friend. I've collaborated with her on work projects in the past and I can vouch for her work ethic.
She delights in over delivering to her clients with excellence and care. And if you're interested in getting to know her a little bit better, she was also a previous guest on The Savvy Sauce. So, I will add her episode in the show notes for today's episode.
But Francie's integrity makes it easy to personally recommend her work. And this book is a download of her years of business knowledge and experience. I've read this book cover to cover, and it actually lives on our special bookshelf that I reserve for all the books I would reread over and over again.
And it's also the shelf of these special books that I want to encourage our daughters to also read as they grow up. So, I'm so excited for you to get your own copy and begin pursuing your dream. Francie's book has already received over 20 five-star reviews on Amazon.
And readers say they loved the guidance on exactly how to gain clarity, save time, and build a business that works for the modern woman's lifestyle. Dream, Build, Grow: A Female's Step-by-Step Guide for How to Start a Business by Francie Heinrichson provides realistic, achievable, and step-by-step guidance to finally start the business you've been dreaming about.
You can also save 10% when you use the code SAVVY at foundingfemalesco.com. Thanks for your sponsorship.
I love even how you describe that was maybe a little bit cumbersome at first to have to both of you do your work.
It paid off in the end. So, can you just kind of vision cast for us what it would look like if we put some healthy systems into place to habitually converse about mental load in marriage?
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (23:33 - 26:14) Yeah, so one of the biggest takeaways of my book in terms of a new system is to have a regular check-in around the mental load. And the benefits to doing this just are like expansive. But one of the main things is that because the mental load is always changing, it's helpful to have a regular check-in so you can just kind of turn the dials, make the adjustments.
You know, this is a busy week for me. This is where I need a bit of support. How are you doing?
And check in and make those changes as necessary. It's also helpful, like some of the peripheral benefits, because sometimes people need convincing, even though this is not new advice to have a marriage check-in. It's been around a long time, but people still resist doing this.
So, some of the side benefits. One is that a lot of times women are the ones who are managing the relationship. We're the ones who are like, hey, I think we need a date night.
I think we need to talk about this. I want it. We never finish that argument.
You know, we're the ones kind of running the show around that stuff. And that becomes part of our mental load and also can start to feel as if we don't have a partner who cares as much about the relationship as we do. And so, when you have a scheduled time to talk about this stuff, it shares part of that responsibility.
So right away, you're sharing some of the emotional labor of the home and family life. The other thing is that women often have a lot of anxiety around the things that we're carrying in our minds that we need to talk to our partners. But we're not sure when is the good time.
So, a lot of times what happens is that we'll just kind of like eke it out through the week. Like, oh, by the way, like you got to pick Roy up from baseball here and Effie needs this. And I've been wondering about this.
And it becomes this sort of barrage of things are going on in our head that we need to talk about with our partner. But it's just like spread out. It's not consolidated.
So, a lot of times the women carry the anxiety around when this is going to happen and if our partners really got a hold of it. And our partners a lot of times find it like nagging. And then we might feel like a nag, and it doesn't really feel good to either person.
And so, when you can anticipate having an opportunity to address all of those things, it can help you move through your week with a lesser amount of anxiety. And also, can reduce that sort of dynamic that starts to feel either like nagging or almost like the mother-child dynamic, which also does nothing for your sex life. So, there's lots more benefits.
But those are a couple that are really important.
Laura Dugger: (26:15 - 26:27) It's so good. And what can that conversation look like? And maybe do you have any stories of couples who have done this with how they set that up or what that actually looks like in their week?
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (26:27 - 28:23) Yeah. So, in my book, I give an agenda so you can literally just print it out. You can get a QR code to a PDF to print it out and you can follow along.
You can come up with your own, but it needs a couple of components you want to keep consistent that you want to keep the meeting relatively short. If it goes too long, it gets sometimes into, you know, you didn't do this and now you're like into a negative dynamic and you want it to really stay contained to being a bit more logistical. And then we'll talk about the other components.
You also want it to go well so that you'll do it again. And it becomes a natural pattern in the relationships. You want to keep it short.
You want to really, you know, you can keep it very simple. How did we do last week? Where did you need me?
And when I wasn't there, like, was there a time you needed me to do something different? So, you can both sort of anticipate that we're going to get a little bit of corrective feedback and we can start to normalize that. Looking toward the next week, what are some things I need to be aware of?
What are some areas where you might need some more support? So, you can basically keep it as simple as that. You always end the meeting with an expression of affection and appreciation and then schedule your next meeting.
That's like the bare bones sort of touch base. And I find that as you know, when I've spoken with couples who do this, I mean, number one, they're all I mean, if couples are doing it, bottom line, it's helpful. Like, oh, my gosh, we actually addressed all of these things that normally we'd just be holding on to getting frustrated about.
We handled the week ahead much better. So, it's always a positive experience. And but the more you do it, the more automatic it will become and the more natural it will become over time, unless you'll need an agenda or any sort of, you know, template for those meetings.
Laura Dugger: (28:24 - 29:11) Yes, I echo it. Such a game changer. Just we just call it planning the week.
But sitting down and looking at the next week, I just wonder how you would function in a family without knowing that because it takes out the questionable expectations or the silent things that we're holding on to and just makes that covert overt, which is healthier in marriage. But then I guess it's sometimes easier to see something through its opposite. So, walk us through what it would look like if couples refuse to do this and choose to neglect these conversations and don't check in with each other as it relates to the mental load and shared partnership tasks.
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (29:13 - 32:06) Yeah, I think a lot of couples are here and there's different degrees of severity that it can affect your relationship. And some people are better at just kind of like letting things go and functioning with a little bit of baseline frustration or rationalizing it and others are not. So, there's a lot of variables here.
But what often happens is usually it's the woman who feels the overwhelm and the stress and she'll come to her partner and try to talk about that. And it usually in the worst-case scenarios doesn't go well or even in great. You know, the first time I talked about it with my husband, it didn't go well.
So, it happens. And so, partners start to at that point. So, let's say she gets louder.
So, I've tried to talk about it. He's not getting it. I'm going to get louder.
I'm going to get a little angry. So, she's going to start kind of making side comments. Potentially, you know, don't you see that?
I guess I'm going to handle this again. Guess it's all on me. Totally typical, actually, in relationships for these things to come out.
He starts to perceive her as critical as nagging him as tense. Oh, you're so stressed out. Why are you making such a big deal over these little things?
You need to lower your expectations. You make things harder than you need to. That sort of stuff starts to come out.
So, both of them begin to develop some almost like storylines about each other. So, the story she tells herself about him is he's selfish, unhelpful, doesn't care about her. Everything falls on her.
The storyline he starts to tell is it's never enough for her. She's critical. She won't get off my back.
She'll leave me alone. She doesn't appreciate all that I already do. And they start to sort of retreat to their own worlds.
And this is where the disconnection happens. No one's really, you know, taking the time to check their assumptions, to get in each other's perspectives, to think about what is it like to be you in this relationship? What's it like to be you in this relationship?
And work through it together. So, they start to retreat to their own worlds. The distance develops.
Eventually it probably affects what their sex life looks like. And some couples go on like this for years. And you just, you know, the interactions become shorter, more logistical, less relational.
You start to forget why you even married the person. You start to forget what you like about them. And it becomes a really just sad state of affairs for a relationship when these things are not addressed and worked through.
And it's not always, you know, easy to do. But it's definitely something worth the effort and the energy.
Laura Dugger: (32:08 - 33:07) I like that because it's not easy to do. It will require time and energy and intentionality. It's also not easy to be in that type of marriage.
I would argue it's even more difficult and draining. And just is not the abundant life that we're hoping to enjoy in Christ and in our relationships. So, we don't want that.
But I love your book gives plenty of practical tips for navigating this. And I thought it was really wise. One piece where you just talked about, we kind of get in a rut.
Maybe where we both have our assigned roles in marriage or tasks that we naturally take care of. But both of us forget there are seasons of extra. And when extra things come up, it's just helpful to reflect and evaluate who's picking up all of those extra invisible tasks.
So, do you have any wisdom to share for recognizing that or managing that tension?
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (33:09 - 37:33) Yeah, I think. So back when I was explaining how it got heavy for women, why it primarily happens the way it does, that concept I explained of her doing the things out of just goodness of her heart and loving her partner and her family. I call that something called piling on of precedence.
And so, part of the problem when we do that is that a lot of times we take things on, like I said, with no discussion, no negotiation. And what that does is it keeps the thing that we do in the dark. It keeps it invisible.
So, as we move through family life with different seasons with our kids and our careers and all the things, new stuff comes up. Like we're in the season of youth sports. And so, youth sports are like, I mean, holy moly, hours sometimes to even just sign up for a sport.
It's wild, all that you got to navigate. And so, I think it's really important to be aware of what you are taking on with no discussion or conversation. So, I talk about in the book, I believe I talk about in the book, I do these experiments on my husband, and he doesn't know to this day, and I'm not shy about talking about it, but it's on him to listen to a podcast.
And then he can figure it out. But I started doing this one experiment in the attempt to try to make more of the invisible visible. And part of why this is important is because a lot of times one task with a mental load unpacks to contain multiple tasks.
This is why we get really overwhelmed even though our to-do list looks totally manageable. It's like, well, dinner's not just cooking dinner. It's all these other things involved.
So, I started doing this thing called narration and just to see what would happen. And it's not narration in the sense that it's like this petty laundry list of all that I do. But I would pick one task, and I would just narrate to my husband what I did.
And so, it sounds like this. I would say, oh, hey, babe, just so you know, I signed Roy up for Little League. He'd be like, oh, OK.
I'd be like, I filled out the forms. Start to list. I filled out the forms.
I found his birth certificate. That took me a while, but I found it and I uploaded it. I paid all the fees.
I downloaded two apps. You got to get those two. Here's what they're called.
But I just wanted you to know I handled it. So, a couple of things would always get accomplished. Number one, now he knows all that's involved in signing our son up for Little League.
He would never know. It would just be something that it's just done. He was not even thinking about it.
It's something I handle. It's off his plate. So now he knows all of the steps that are involved.
He has a greater awareness of what I'm doing. It saves me from later because sometimes we don't mind doing stuff like this. And then by the end of the week when we're at our limit and one more thing piles on and we're kind of annoyed, we might resent the thing that we didn't originally.
So, it's sort of saving me from that. And it gives him the opportunity to express appreciation, which every time I've done that, that's what ends up happening. Thank you so much for handling that.
I really appreciate you. You're so great at taking care of that stuff. And over time, I've just selected things and I've started doing that.
And over time, what's really interesting is that my husband has started doing it too. So, I never told him that I did this, but now he'll be like, hey, babe, just so you know, I submitted our taxes. I paid your LLC fee for you, and I did this and I did that.
And I get to then see all that he's doing and express appreciation. So, what it's done is it's made invisible things visible. And it has also, and this is really important, normalized expressing appreciation over the value each of us contribute in our home and family life.
And appreciation is one of the most desired things women want from their partners around the mental load. It's initiative taking and appreciation. And so, we have normalized this mutual exchange of sharing how we add value to our family and giving appreciation around it.
Laura Dugger: (37:34 - 39:25) That is so good. And as you were sharing, I was thinking too of times that my husband, Mark, I love it when he'll walk me through something he did at work or taxes actually came to mind too, where he said, this is how long it took me to do all these steps. And your first response is like, oh my gosh, thank you so much.
And just really just falling in love with them a little bit more and appreciating them. So, I love how that can be a positive cycle that goes both ways. And its intimacy because you're getting to see into each other's lives and that invisible brain space for both of them. Yes.
Do you love The Savvy Sauce? Do you gain anything when you listen?
Did you know that the two ways we earn money to keep this podcast live is through generous contributions from listeners and from our paying sponsors? That means we can promote your business and you're still supporting The Savvy Sauce. It's a win-win.
Please email us today at info@thesavvysauce.com to inquire about pricing for sponsoring each episode. Thank you for your consideration.
You mention in your book that you recommend considering time and energy as each spouse's currency.
So, their currency rather than how much money they make. So, this is especially for maybe parents who have one stay-at-home mom or dad. So, consider time and energy as each spouse's currency rather than how much money we make.
So, there's this paragraph on page 34 that I hope everybody gets and reads just about the value of a stay-at-home parent. But is there anything you could share to elaborate on that topic?
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (39:26 - 42:29) Yeah, so this part of the book was really important for me to include for a couple of reasons. One, I remember early on when my husband and I were trying to develop a shared language around the mental load and he would get prickly about certain things and where he always got stuck was around the money piece. Well, you know, typically, you know, he thinks a bit traditionally.
So, he'd be like, well, men are like, well, not always. That's actually not true. Look at the amount of female breadwinners.
It's like pretty high percentage at this point in our American society. So, I knew this was a common just point of contention in this conversation. I also interviewed men for my book.
I interviewed men and women. I surveyed women and that came up a lot. Don't forget that life costs money.
Don't forget the value that we add. And also, when I talked about, you know, this socialization for men, really around providing financial and physical safety is this really, you know, it's prevalent. A lot of men, even if they're not the breadwinner, will feel an increase in pressure and responsibility to provide financially after kids enter the picture.
So, it's a real thing. And so, in that sense, it was really important for me to include it. But the other is because I talk to mostly, you know, stay at home moms all the time.
And it's like, but he makes the money and I don't know what to say to that. And so, I really wanted to provide the permission to, you know, women or just parents who don't make the most money to ask for more participation from their partners in a way that feels good. So, the whole premise is that, you know, obviously we use money as our currency in our society, but that template doesn't work for home and family life.
And it doesn't take a lot of reasoning to get to that place. If you just I use the example in the book of if I worked one hour a week and made a million dollars, and my husband worked 60 hours a week and made 50,000. Does it make sense for me to say, well, I make more.
So, you do everything or you do. You know, I should feel entitled to do less because I make more, which is often what happens. And so, with the template doesn't really translate in the same way.
And so, I put forward that the currency in our home and family life should be time and energy. People have different capacities when it comes to their energy, people's time looks different. It changes often, you know, week to week.
And so, it can also be a really quick way to check in with one another. I'm imagining that time when one parent is like reentering family life. And that's often kind of a dicey time for a lot of families, especially with young kids.
And to be able to say, hey, how's your time? How's your energy? I'm at a 10 here.
I'm at a, you know, I'm at a two here. So, and how can you then jump in and sort of support one another based on how you're each doing in terms of time and energy?
Laura Dugger: (42:31 - 43:39) Yeah, because I think if we paint that picture, my background is marriage and family therapy. And I would say so many times, I don't want to be stereotypical, but this is what it was. The wife would either be working, or it would be a stay-at-home mom.
The husband was more of the provider. But consistently, they would say he comes home from work and just lays on the couch or on a Sunday. He just sits around and relaxes.
And yet maybe he's working 40, maybe he's even working 60 hours a week. But that still leaves over 100 hours in the week beyond work. And that would be the constant complaint.
You could see that root bitterness. So how would you encourage both of them? I would say, especially in this situation, how would you encourage the husbands?
That's really not fulfilling your responsibility. And one more thing, just thinking of that scripture in Corinthians. I believe it's in the love chapter, which would be 1 Corinthians 13.
And it talks about when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (43:39 - 43:40) Yeah.
Laura Dugger: (43:41 - 43:43) I threw a lot at you. How would you like to respond?
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (43:45 - 46:00) I think it's almost like that type of behavior feels very, is it like leave it to beaver? Almost of like the guy comes home and sits and reads the paper type of thing. And we're just not really living in that world as much anymore.
And even if we are, there's plenty of studies that look at the amount of hours a stay-at-home mom works. And it's around an average of about 97 hours a week, which is two and a half full time jobs. And so, I mean, this is why I wanted to have this section of my book is because the person who works outside the home often feels entitled to do less inside the home.
And so, I think part of it is undoing this belief system that you have checked all the boxes because you went to work. And then everything else is sort of like sugar, like, you know, like gravy on top. And that's actually not true.
But I think one of the questions men really need to wrestle with is what kind of husband and father do you want to be? You know, do you want, you know, I would be willing to bet that in this type of relationship situation, the woman is ragged. And definitely starting to develop roots of bitterness and frustration and hurts.
And so how do you want her to feel in the relationship? How do you want to really step in and lead your family? I think these are, you know, and these are questions that if you're sitting down with your partner, I think are totally acceptable to ask.
How do you want me to feel in our relationship? What do you want when I see you on the couch at the end of the day? And I've been working too all day, whether it's with the kids, whether it's outside the home.
And I see you on the couch and you're watching a game. What conclusion do you want me to draw about how you feel about my value and my contribution to this family and what we're doing? And I'm not saying this in a way of snarkiness, saying it genuine.
It's genuine conversation. I think that these partners have to take a moment and reflect on their behavior and how they're showing up in their family life.
Laura Dugger: (46:02 - 46:31) I like that even how you model the tone, that you're approaching it truly with a sense of curiosity with the goal being a better, healthier relationship. And it makes me think, OK, again, solutions, which I think ties in. You had briefly mentioned what women are wanting related to the mental load.
I'd love to cover that a little bit more in depth and also what men are wanting and wish that women knew as it relates to the mental load.
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (46:32 - 51:06) Yeah, so there's sort of two parts of this for
women. So, I in the chapter, there's four areas in the meat of the book that I talk about that couples need to learn to share. So, there's a chapter on sharing perspective.
And in those chapters, I talk about what do women want in their relationship and what do men want in their relationship with women, though? I also surveyed women and asked them specifically, what do you want from your partners around the mental load? And what they wanted was, number one, more initiative taking and number two, more appreciation, which appreciation is an easy one to give.
It's really hard for a lot of people to give, but it costs you almost nothing. It almost costs you no time. So, it's a really easy one.
And it was it was actually like a pretty close percentage. And so, I'll give just a little bit of information around initiative taking, because that's vague. I find that when we're asking for change from partners, it's helpful to be as specific as possible, because a lot of times we're sort of vague with our requests and then nothing changes.
So, initiative taking requires knowing plus action. So, you can't step into initiative or leadership or like however you want to label this. If you don't know people's preferences, if you don't know where things are kept in the house, if you don't know what's on the schedule.
And so, if there are any husbands listening, I would encourage you to increase your knowing around your home and family life. And part of that might be like increasing your awareness. You might get home from work and maybe you need a minute.
But then are you tuning out the rest of the night, just kind of numbly going through the motions or are you like paying attention and absorbing information? And so, I spoke to couples before and when I speak to the men, I always challenge them to employ something called the Buffett formula, which comes from Warren Buffett around the accumulation of information and knowledge. And he basically says, go to bed every night knowing more than when you woke up that morning.
So, as a husband and a father, get to know three new things a day. Get to know one new thing about your significant other, one new thing about each of your kids if you have them, and one new thing about how your home and family life functions. That will accumulate quickly and will help you step into initiative taking with competence and competence, which is a lot of times the reasons they'll give for not stepping into it.
I don't know how to do it. So, gather that information. You said, what do men want in their relationships?
So then in the chapters on perspective, I use the acronym PAR, and I use the same acronym for both men and women, but it stands for different things. And so, I talk about what are the three things men want most in their relationships. And the first is peace.
And I think we should just talk about this more in general when we talk about relationships, because I think a lot of men will really do some hurtful things in the pursuit of peace. And it always backfires, you know, like a defensive. I don't want to have an argument.
It's too emotional. I want to deal with this right now. So, you know, they might shove it away.
But a lot of men really are after they just want peace. They want you to be happy, easy breezy. But a lot of times in order to get to a peaceful place, you might have to go through a little bit of difficult conversations to get there.
The second thing is affection. And that is, you know, words, how we speak to each other all the way through our sexual relationship. Not for every man, but for a lot of men, sex is how they feel loved and desired in their relationship.
And so, it plays a very important role. And then the last is respect. And everybody wants to be respected.
This is not necessarily just a man thing, but men in particular have a high need for respect. And so, when I was talking about how relationships kind of like can start to degrade when the mental load isn't handled well, part of what happens is that she will start to become more disrespectful because she doesn't respect him. And he will feel disrespected because he is being disrespected.
But there's a whole history as to why you got to this place. And so, yeah, it's very important to understand these things when we're entering into these conversations that can sometimes be a little bit tricky.
Laura Dugger: (51:08 - 51:24) You've given us so many jumping off points to proactively enhance our marriages and spoken to both sides, the men, the women. Is there anything else you want to make sure we don't miss? Is our time starting to near a close?
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (51:25 - 53:28) Oh, my goodness. I feel like we covered quite a bit. I mean, I would just say something that was really on my heart when I wrote my book, A Better Share, is that in the world of social media, which is a big part of our lives, unfortunately, and fortunately in some ways.
But, you know, in the land of this content area on social media, it can be a pretty hostile ground, especially for men. So, it's a charged topic. It's wild.
So yesterday I shared a post based on my interviews with men where I just shared some of their perspectives. And if you read the comments section, it's wild how people are angry about a perspective like it's not allowed. And something that was on my heart was I want to write a book that welcomes men to the table, because at the end of the day, at the end of the day, if we're being truly honest, we want men to change a bit.
We want them to, like, step into this conversation in this work, to be more emotionally attuned, to express appreciation for the value we add to our family, to participate more as a leader in our home. So, we're wanting all these changes from them. But then we're like most people are coming at it from this very angry perspective.
And so, a really important part of my of my writing and putting the book together was I want to write a book men enjoy reading where they feel seen. They also feel challenged and they feel like they are equipped with these aha moments where they're like, oh, that's what's going on. And the feedback, if you read reviews on Amazon, it's like been really powerful to look at the response from men and how it's been received.
And so that's probably one of my something I'm most proud of with this with this work.
Laura Dugger: (53:29 - 53:52) Yes, I would say well done with that. And this is a great episode to share with our husband. That's the wife who is initially listening and then maybe to come back together and see how can I serve you better?
How can I love you better for both ways? But Dr. Morgan, you've also written another book. Do you want to share a little bit about that and where we can go to learn more from you after this chat?
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (53:53 - 55:39) Sure. So, my first book was called Love Your Kids Without Losing Yourself. And it's a book I wrote for moms.
And at the end of the day, it's really a book about our relationship with ourselves. And I just use examples in every chapter. I talk about how I apply the concept to our relationship with our kids.
And then I apply it back to your relationship with yourself. But, you know, women, we're so good at backburnering ourselves and getting to a place, though, of kind of living on the backburner. And we do it, you know, in this deep, wonderful place.
I think comes from a wonderful place to really serve our family and serve our kids. And if there's ever a cause to backburner yourself for, it is our kids. But at the same time, we do this self-sacrifice for the people we love the most.
And then we end up becoming so burnt out, so overwhelmed, that we end up resenting the people we love the most. And so, it ends up backfiring. And so, this is a book about not putting your oxygen mask on first.
That always bugs me. But it's about how us as moms can learn to take our turn, can learn to manage our relationship with ourself in a way that's actually doable in the little blips of time that we get to ourselves. So that we don't wake up after 18 years of raising kids or however, probably is like 22 now or something, but of all these years.
And we're like, I don't even know who I am anymore. You know, or those moms that their kids leave and start a family of their own. And then we're sort of like resentful that they abandoned us because we gave them everything.
And so, it's really about how do you stay connected to yourself in this busyness of life and raising kids.
Laura Dugger: (55:40 - 55:48) And we'll definitely add a link to that in the show notes for today's episode. Are there any other links or places that you would like to direct us to?
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (55:48 - 56:50) Yeah, I mean, my Instagram is a place you can find me. It's just Dr. Morgan Cutlip. And also, I've been working on releasing and these two are out now.
I'll just mention one of them. I like to do audio courses. I feel like it's much easier to just listen and not sit down and watch a video.
But I just released a course called The Brief. And it's the No BS Guide to the Mental Load for Men. And it's a course for men.
And it's 90 minutes and it's broken up into 11 episodes. And it explains the mental load. It explains what it is, what women want, why it's important.
And it really breaks everything down in a way that doesn't induce shame or defensiveness. And a major complaint of women is not only do I carry the mental load, but now I carry the responsibility of educating my partner around it. And so, I figured if there's a way for me to take that burden in any way, obviously the partner has to be willing to listen.
Then I feel like I'm helping. So that's also available. All my stuff is very affordable.
So, yeah, it's called The Brief.
Laura Dugger: (56:50 - 57:07) The Brief, wonderful. Thank you for sharing that. And you may already be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge.
And so, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (57:09 - 57:45) These are the, I can talk about just about anything. But this question, that's like the one thing I'm terrible at. Collect the good.
I think in all of our relationships, in all of our relatively safe relationships, the more we collect the good rather than accumulate complaints and the bad, the better our relationships will be, the more we can appreciate the blessings that people add to our lives and how they enrich our lives. So, if you're in a committed relationship, see how you can collect up and gather up all the good.
Laura Dugger: (57:46 - 58:07) Love that, Dr. Morgan. And throughout this hour, I've just enjoyed how vulnerable and disciplined and extremely talented you are. But I especially notice and appreciate your desire to help.
So, thank you for wrapping all of that up into one chat. And thank you for being my guest.
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (58:08 - 58:09) Thank you for having me.
Laura Dugger: (58:10 - 1:01:52) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.
This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.
Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.
Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.
First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.
You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Feb 09, 2026
Monday Feb 09, 2026
Emotionally Healthy Familial Relationships: Special Patreon Release with Cherilyn Orr
"bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord." Ephesians 6:4b (KJV)
*Transcription Below*
Cherilyn Orr is passionate about helping parents, teachers, and guardians raise emotionally healthy and resilient children. She has worked with families and educators in North America, Europe, and Africa to help them build safe schools, homes, and communities where children can flourish. The Stoplight Approach that she developed was born out of her experiences as an educator, a foster mom, and a mom to seven through birth and adoption, and it combines biblical truths with the latest brain science. Connect with her on her Website, Facebook, Instagram, or YouTube.
Topics and Questions We Cover:
-
What are a few helpful tips for us to understand brain science 101?
-
How can we repair the relationship when we don't disciple and discipline from our Green zone?
-
Within the stoplight approach, can you provide some examples of how we can calm a red-rooted misbehavior?
Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and The Savvy Sauce Charities (and donate online here)
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
*Transcription*
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 2:07)
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
I want to say a huge thank you to today's sponsors for this episode, Chick-fil-A East Peoria and Savvy Sauce Charities.
Are you interested in a free college education for you or someone you know? Stay tuned for details coming later in this episode from today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. You can also visit their website today at Chick-fil-A.com/EastPeoria.
If you've been with us long, you know this podcast is only one piece of our nonprofit, which is the Savvy Sauce Charities. Don't miss out on our other resources. We have questions and content to inspire you to have your own practical chats for intentional living.
And I also hope you don't miss out on the opportunity to financially support us through your tax-deductible donations. All this information can be found on our recently updated website, TheSavvySauce.com.
Cherilyn Orr is my guest today. She is kind and humble and a woman who's passionate about helping parents, teachers, and guardians raise emotionally healthy and resilient children. She's going to share how she combines biblical truths with the latest brain science to build healthy relationships in the family.
Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Cherilyn.
Cherilyn Orr: (2:07 - 2:08)
Thank you. I'm really happy to join you today.
Laura Dugger: (2:08 - 2:10)
And will you start by just giving us a snapshot of your life right now?
Cherilyn Orr: (2:08 - 3:11)
Yes, I am actually talking to you from Athens, Greece. That is where our family resides right now. And we've been here for the last few years. And before that, we lived in Uganda and Africa.
I have seven children and my oldest is now a mom herself. And she just gave birth a couple months ago to a preemie little baby. And I am so excited because now I have entered the world of grandparenthood.
But I'm also in the throes of life with a 12-year-old, a 14-year-old, and a 17-year-old. And I have a university student living at home. My next son is 21, and he's also living at home, going to university. So those are my four at home.
I have one in Canada, working there. And I have two that are married. One that lives in Africa with his wife, and they're working there. And another one with my grandbaby that's living here in Greece, working with the church here.
Laura Dugger: (3:12 - 3:19)
That is quite a full family and a global family. What has taken you to the different parts of the world?
Cherilyn Orr: (3:20 - 3:44)
Well, we are a missional family. But we believe that everybody's called to be a missional and to serve God. And God happens to have taken us to different places.
I've been working with The Stoplight Approach now for a few years now. My husband does leadership training as well. So that's kind of what's taken us around the world. Now that we're in Greece, I'm also involved with refugees as well here.
Laura Dugger: (3:45 - 4:06)
Well, we are fortunate to live in a time with access to scientific knowledge about the brain. And it all points back to our brilliant Creator, God. But you make this brain science so simple to comprehend. So, can you just share a few helpful tips for us so that we can understand kind of brain science 101?
Cherilyn Orr: (4:08 - 6:40)
Yes, I think for me, it's been a journey. But it came when after we adopted a child and she was having an all-out meltdown. And it would have taken me an hour or so to regroup her.
And it was just amazing. I was with a friend and she is a behavioral consultant. And she said, “Let me.” And this was after we had had her for at least a couple of years at this point. And she just said, “Let me.”
And she got down on the ground where my child was screaming hysterically. And she was able to get her back sitting on her seat, doing what she was supposed to in less than, I don't know, 10 minutes.
And I was shocked because here I am an educator. I have a master's degree. I'm a special needs teacher. I have been working for years with children in different settings around the world. And here I was looking at her doing something that I just didn't know how to do.
It was a huge paradigm shift for me when she said afterwards, I said, “What did you do?”
And she said, “It's by understanding the brain. The brain is like three parts. It's like a stoplight.”
So, she said, if you can think of it that way, as there's that bottom part of your brain, which is that fight, flight, freeze. When you are just only using 50% of your capacity and you just can't hear anybody's perspective.
And then there's that middle part of your brain, which is the limbic system. And she said, you know, that's when you're using 75% or so of your brain capacity. And that's when you're stressed, you're worried, you're anxious, and you're just not at your best.
And then there's your top part of your brain, which is your neocortex, which you are just ready to learn. And you can problem solve and you can think and you are the best version of yourself at that moment.
And she talked to me a little bit about that. And she's just said, this is what's happening in your brain. For me, that was a wow, you know, because it's like understanding the brain is so opposite than anything that I had ever done. And as an educator, I've been trained to control children. I've taken courses on behavior management. And this was just like changing the equation. When you understand the brain, then it changes how you can relate to the child in your care.
Laura Dugger: (6:41 - 7:05)
And also, I will just sprinkle in a few little things that I found fascinating in your book. One of your conclusions was that relationships are the biggest factor in brain development and for it to develop in a healthy way. So, is that what you found true throughout the years of our life, that relationships are vital?
Cherilyn Orr: (7:05 - 8:02)
It's for everybody. And it needs to start with that relationship. And that relationship has what I would say three pillars, which is safety, which is your red brain. In order to come out of that fight, flight or freeze, you have to feel safe.
And in order to come out of yellow brain, which is your limbic system, you need to feel connected and you need to feel respected. And respect means to be seen, heard and valued. And when you're in that yellow brain state, you don't feel connected. You feel disconnected.
So, in order to get people to green brain, you need to make them feel seen, heard and valued. So, if we want healthy relationships and we want green home, then we need to be able to help our children get to that green brain state. But it starts by making them feel safe and making them feel connected. So, relationship is foundational.
Laura Dugger: (8:02 - 8:24)
And you've combined your knowledge of the Bible and all of this brain science to write a book entitled Signals: How Brain Science and the Bible Help Parents Raise Resilient Children. So, will you elaborate now on that Stoplight Approach that you teach and write about?
Cherilyn Orr: (8:27 - 11:10)
Well, yes, I am so excited because we just looked at, you know, those three elements, safety, respect and being connected, and then we could teach it. And when we look at the Bible and we say, “How does God view me and how does He work with me?”
I go back to the fact is when God sees me in my mess ups and He sees my anger or my gossip or my addictions or whatever I'm struggling with. He looks at me and He says, “Come to me. I am your safety. I am your refuge.”
He wants us to bring Him our messes. He says, “Come to me just as you are, not as you want to be, not as you should be and not as you could be.” And in that context, He says, “I delight in you. I know you. I know every hair on your head. I know you. I know your name and I love you. You are in the palm of my hand and I delight in you.”
And Zephaniah talks about and He sings over us, not because we've done something, not because we're worthy, because He knows that unless we feel safe and unless we are in that connection and can relationship with them, then He cannot help us to train us and to walk with us and guide us through the process of growing and becoming that healthy person that He desires for us to be.
So, I was so excited when I looked at who God is and how it matches with what brain science is teaching us about red, yellow, green and how we can't teach anybody. It takes 12 to 15 times to teach a child a new skill when they are in green. That same child, that same skill when he's there in red will take 350 to 400 times because that is not the part of the brain where you can do problem solving or critical thinking or even to have empathy for anybody else. That part of the brain can only do rote learning. So, it will take you so long to teach a child when they're in that part of the brain.
And I love it because that obedience is an outflowing of a relationship with us, with God. And when we look at our child, that's what we want is we don't want them to obey us because they fear us, but we want them to obey us because they are connected to us. Just like God wants us to obey Him in that relationship, not because it's the rule and that's what we need to do.
So, I'm so excited to see how that brain science is catching up to who God is.
Laura Dugger: (11:11 - 12:07)
Oh, my goodness. That is amazing to also just think of the Lord as obviously our parent and we want to model after Him. Some of this is reminding me there was a previous episode with Dr. Josh and Christy Straub where they were looking at research findings about parenting. And one of them was that it was so important for us to be self-regulated when we're responding to our children. And there's a connection.
So, in your book, I'm just going to read this one quote from page 56. You wrote, “One of the most shocking things I realized as I learned about brain science was that it is impossible to make a child feel loved when the parent is in yellow or red. They feel our stress. They feel our disapproval.” And so, would you like to elaborate on that as well?
Cherilyn Orr: (12:09 - 13:41)
Well, we have this thing that we talk a lot about in The Stoplight Approach. We talk about the stoplight starts with me. You cannot give what you don't have.
So many parents will say, “I love my child,” but the child does not feel loved. And when I was doing seminars and training throughout North America, you know, often people say, “We are a yellow society.” And that broke my heart.
We are a yellow society. We're running our kids at five in the morning to this program, to hockey or this or programs late at night. And we're just running.
And I feel like if we are yellow and we are stressed, then there is automatically a disconnect. There's almost like a gate that says, do not enter. You can't go through it unless you are in green.
You're in red, then your whole house turns to red. Mama's in red, everybody's in red. Or if you're in yellow, you'll start to see the children in your care are in yellow.
And I find that in my house. When I start to see my house going to that yellow space, I start to have to do like, what color am I in? If I'm in yellow, then they're going to be in yellow. And you start to see them fighting amongst themselves or bickering or just not cooperating. And there's that tension that comes because they're picking up my yellowness and my stress.
Laura Dugger: (13:42 - 14:04)
And so, let's go a little bit further with that scenario. If parents are in a very stressful season and there are quite a few to-do's that have to get done on top of the daily things. If that parent identifies they are in the yellow, maybe in the red, how can they get back to green even in the midst of a crazy time of life?
Cherilyn Orr: (14:06 - 16:26)
Well, you know, you don't have to be perfect. You don't have to be a perfect parent. But what science is showing us and it's what God wants from us is that sense of repair. We need to look at how do we repair because that's what our child needs because life is not perfect and we are not perfect. And I am certainly far from being a perfect parent. But how do I repair the damage and how do I connect?
So, we call it fix it, treasure it and change it. So, fix it is: Yes, I am sorry. Mommy yelled at you. I am so sorry I did that. I was in yellow and I was really stressed. Would you forgive me? I love you and you did not deserve me to yell at you. I care about you and I did not handle that appropriately.
And I want you to help me. This is what I've said to my children. I want you to help me when I'm going to red or I'm going to yellow. Just remind me and say, “Mom, you're going to yellow.” And then that can help me to make some changes right then and create that gap so that I'm not reacting. Or maybe I could take a walk or maybe I could get myself back to green.
When I react in that yellow or red brain state, it's not safe for you. It's not safe for others. So, let's work together on this.
And then we can talk about maybe what was happening in our house at that time as well. And maybe how they can help things to go smoother in our house. So that they could take some responsibility in helping because Mommy didn't feel seen, heard and valued. You know, I had asked you five times to do that. So how do we work together to make this house run smoother?
So being red and yellow are not bad things. It's not like you are horrible because you went to red and yellow. It's warning. It's like an alarm going off to say, be careful, be careful.
It's an opportunity to reflect and say, what's not working here? What's the deeper issue here? Yes, maybe I was overtired and maybe I did this. But what else is going on? And I may need to look back on things that maybe are triggering me that are deeper. And maybe things that relate back to my own childhood or how I was raised.
Laura Dugger: (16:26 - 16:52)
That makes a lot of sense, that reflection. Because I studied psychology and marriage and family therapy. And we were always taught, name it to tame it. And sometimes that really does help when we can pinpoint and identify and name. What is that trigger? It helps to tame it. And I think the biblical concept is when you share it with somebody else, when you bring it into the light, it does lose a lot of its power.
Cherilyn Orr: (16:53 - 17:46)
Definitely. Because if I can say I'm in red, it helps me know what I need to do to get myself back to green. So, if I can start to recognize when my body is starting to get tense, when I'm starting to get stressed, I can say, oh, this is my warning. I need to do this. I need to have a shower. I need to go for a walk. I need to regroup myself so that I'm not reacting to my children in my red brain state. I can get myself back to green first. So, I can create that gap.
So, naming it, that's what I think the success of Stoplight is. It's the common language that says how do we help each other when we are moving to yellow and we are moving to red so that everybody in the family knows that red is not bad, but how do we help that person in their red to get back to green?
Laura Dugger: (17:48 - 17:52)
What is the Stoplight Approach to discipline and boundaries?
Cherilyn Orr: (17:54 - 22:32)
Well, sometimes people think, oh, is The Stoplight Approach permissive? You know, we just let kids do what they want and let them be in green. If anybody has multiple children, you know that if one child is being self-centered and they're in their own world, it's going to create chaos for the rest of the family.
And so, Stoplight is not about permissiveness. And I think we need to be looking at the word discipline comes from the word disciple, which means to train. If you can kind of get that word discipline, because so often we've mixed that word discipline with punishment. So, it's all about punishing a child, whereas actually discipline is not about punishing. It's about training a child.
And everybody, every child needs boundaries. Boundaries help to keep us safe. They help to keep our family safe. It helps to keep that relationships in a healthy way.
So, we often use that word to look at how do we as parents, we've always got boundaries. Don't run in the road. We want to keep you safe. Don't touch the hot stove because you'll burn yourself. So, we look for ways to keep our child safe, and we look for ways to help them be safe in relationships. Yes, you want that ball, but you don't hit the other child to get the ball. So, what could we do differently?
Proverbs 13:24 is a common phrase that I grew up hearing. It was kind of like the parenting theology of my generation. “Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but who loves him diligently disciplines him.”
So that was a verse that I heard a lot in my life. But then as I was studying and looking at brain science and really studying about who is God. And I had to look at what is my image of God? Is He this harsh judge up there that maybe subconsciously I believed? Or is He that loving father like the prodigal son that's waiting for his son? Not to punish him, but to love him and to connect with him. And it says in the New Testament, Jesus says, if you've seen him, you've seen the Father. So, He's a good, good father.
So, then I started to dissect this. What is the rod used for? And it talks about the rod being a comfort and a rod being a sense of protection. And we often hear it used in relationships to sheep. You know, if we're going to keep sheep safe, then we need the rod. That shepherd used a rod to protect his sheep from wild animals. So, as we look at that word rod, it's a protection tool.
So, we take apart that and then hates his son. I think, wow, a parent that does not protect their child or teaches their child to be aware of the dangers in this world. So, as a young child, you're protecting them and teaching them to make safe choices. And then as they get older, you still have to continually, continually teach them that. And so, when I look at that word rod and hates his son, that would be a neglectful. In my words, a parent who is neglectful to teach.
The second verse talks about diligently. And that reminds me in Deuteronomy, when we're told to teach our children all through the day, when we're walking, when we're sitting, when we're at mealtimes. We should be using our days to continually teach our children and to discipline them, which would be to train them in the way that they should go.
And I look at God as our creator of our brain. And He loves us so very, very much. And He wants the very best for us. And we know that children and human beings do better when they feel better. So how do we connect with our child? How do we protect our children? And how do we take that opportunity to be present with our child?
Those are hard things for a lot of parents these days to be present, to be engaged with them and to look for ways to continually be working with them and protecting them and keeping them safe.
Laura Dugger: (22:33 - 22:58)
Wow. And I just want to share one of my favorite takeaways from page 143, where you write “Green rooted misbehavior needs coaching. Yellow roots need connection. And red roots need calming.” So, can you provide some examples with that last one of how we can calm a red rooted misbehavior?
Cherilyn Orr: (23:00 - 27:00)
Yes, I certainly can. So, all three of these are so important because we often miss it. I'm going to say that red root, it needs us to speak the red language, speak red brain. And to speak red brain means to stop talking about the problem.
That child does not have capacity to hear you when they are in a red brain state. They need me to be calm. They need me to be in green. And they need me to stop talking. And maybe to only use words that feel safe. You're safe. I'm here. You're safe. I'm here. There's no point in talking to anybody in red brain because they have no capacity to hear.
And then also to be able to go for a walk with your child. Repetitive patterning activities are really helpful. Like for my children, each of my children have, they have a green plan. It's like, what do I do when I'm starting to go to red?
So maybe for one of my children, we have a hammock outside. So, she goes there. These are planned ahead of time when they are in green. These are discussed ahead of time. So, another child will, you know, might listen to music, have a shower, go for a walk. Every single one of us, whether it be an adult or child, should look at what do I need to do to get back to green.
As a parent, when we're looking at green rooted misbehaviors, red rooted misbehaviors and yellow roots misbehaviors, you could have the same issue like two kids fighting. You come around the corner and there you see your two siblings fighting. As a parent, often we go to red immediately. Our brain state goes because it feels threatening. It feels fearful to us. And then we react.
So, I have to take a deep breath myself and I have to say, OK, what brain state is this child in? And sometimes we don't know. So, we can call the children and say, what's going on? Just stopping and asking the question will give us the opportunity to hear what brain state our child is in.
If they happily look it up and say, we were playing Pirates of the Caribbean or something that they had seen on a TV show, then you can say, OK, well, what you're doing is unsafe and somebody is going to get hurt. But they're just acting.
And then if it's a yellow brain state, it's like he pushed me, he touched me. And they're just kind of bickering at each other. They're not really all out fighting. But, you know, you can look at them and say, let's stop and let's make each other feel seen, heard and valued. So, you can work with that child because that child at that point is in yellow brain. And then we can speak yellow brain, which is people don't feel that they're being heard. They don't feel respected. And that's when you can talk about what other things that they could do instead.
And then, of course, we have red brain when these children are all out to hurt each other. They are mad. So that's when we can go into that red brain and say, OK, both of you need to get back to green. We're not going to talk about this right now. I want you to use your green plan and get yourselves back to green. And then we will talk.
Some children can do that independently and some children need you to do it with them. And sometimes it might be that you just take those two children out and say, we're going to run around the block together.” And it's how do you connect with your child at that particular time and keep them safe and get them moving and get their brain state back up to green before you talk with them.
Laura Dugger: (27:01 - 32:37)
And now a brief message from our sponsor. Did you know you can go to college tuition free just by being a team member at Chick-fil-A East Peoria? Yes, you heard that right. Free college education. All Chick-fil-A East Peoria team members in good standing are immediately eligible for a free college education through Point University.
Point University is a fully accredited private Christian college located in West Point, Georgia. This online self-paced program includes 13 associates degrees, 17 bachelor's degrees and two master's programs, including an MBA. College courses are fully transferable both in and out of this program. This could even be a great option to complete your general education courses and then transfer to the college of your choice and save money in the process.
So, if you're looking for an affordable college option while simultaneously gaining valuable work experience and earning an income, Chick-fil-A East Peoria is the place for you. You don't have to go into debt to get a great education. To apply today, please go to Chick-fil-A.com/EastPeoria and click on the careers tab. You can also call the restaurant at 309-694-1044 to find out more. And if you aren't located near Chick-fil-A East Peoria, make sure you check with your local Chick-fil-A restaurant to see if they also participate in the Elevate program with Point University. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Are you utilizing Savvy Sauce Charities to full capacity? Other than our special Patreon release episodes, our content is now available in video form in addition to our audio only. And we have written transcriptions for every episode. Visit our website today, TheSavvySauce.com, to access all these forms of interviews. And while you're there, make sure you sign up for our email list to receive encouragement, questions, and recommended resources about once a month to promote your own practical chats for intentional living.
I also want to remind you about the financial side of Savvy Sauce Charities. As you know, we recently became a non-profit, which means all your financial support is now tax deductible. There are multiple ways to give, and we would be so honored if you would share your financial support with us so that we can continue producing free content that is accessible to the general public. Your money will go to support creatively getting the gospel message of Jesus Christ to the nations as we continue to share the good news on every episode. And I say this is reaching the nations because The Savvy Sauce podcast is downloaded in all 50 United States, as well as over 100 countries around the world. Your financial support also supports practical needs, such as aiding our team to continue producing helpful content that is practical and uplifting and always pointing to Jesus. Your financial support, furthermore, will help us continue to expand our reach and secure future projects we have planned for this ministry.
If your ears are hearing this message right now, I am specifically asking you to give. We are so grateful for any amount, and our team will continue to seek to be good stewards of the gifts offered to us. So, if you want to write a check or set up an ongoing payment with your bank that delivers a check to us each month, this is the most beneficial way to give because no percentages are taken out for processing fees. You can make your checkout to Savvy Sauce Charities at P.O. Box 101, Roanoke, Illinois, 61561.
Additionally, with our new website, we now have a donate button. There are processing fees that we cover for these donations, but we wanted to offer listeners a seamless way to share their finances with us when we share our content with them. So just visit TheSavvySauce.com and find the donate page under the tab support. Another way to find it is simply type in donate to the search bar on our website and just click the first picture shown.
We are all about sharing around here, sharing resources, sharing joy, and sharing the good news about Jesus Christ. We ask that you also will share by sharing financially, sharing the Savvy Sauce podcast episodes, and sharing a five-star rating and review. You can also share any of our social media posts on Instagram or Facebook. We are grateful for all of it, and we just love partnering together with you.
Now, back to the show. And then on our side, I love how you also bring in the repair piece. So how can we practically repair the relationship when we don't disciple and discipline from our green zone as the parent?
Cherilyn Orr: (32:38 - 34:39)
Yes, I feel like that is, it's really hard to ask your child to do anything that you're not doing because they're not going to actually be able to take that to heart. And if you say to a child, “I want you to say sorry to your sibling,” they're just going to look and go, “Sorry,” and have no meaning whatsoever.
And that's why we've done a lot of apology notes in my home over the years, because it's an opportunity to really sit down and reflect and talk. And we talk about how the card needs to be beautiful because we need to treasure that person. And so, they need to apologize for what they did. They need to talk about why on earth are they even writing this apology note? Why is that person of value? Because they're our sister or they're our brother or they're our friend or they're the teacher or the coach. And they are a part of our community and our family. So, we need to write that apology note to value that person.
And then we talk about what are we going to do next time. So those three points go into every single apology note my kids write: fix it, treasure it, change it. But you cannot do that when the child is in red. You cannot do it when they're in yellow. You need to have them back to green and then we can talk through it. And then they can go and deliver that to that person and then talk about how they can reconcile the situation. But I find that that's a really good reflective piece that I've used over the years.
But as a parent, it's hard to say sorry to your kid. It's easier to jump in and just treasure the child. You know, let's go to the park. Let's do this and just value the child. But then you end up having an insecure relationship because you've never acknowledged the problem. Therefore, you cannot change it. So therefore, you cannot have a healthy reconciliation.
Laura Dugger: (34:40 - 34:57)
And how have you seen this Stoplight Approach work across the world? So many different settings with different countries and cultures or families who foster and adapt or even ones raising children with special needs?
Cherilyn Orr: (34:59 - 36:53)
Well, the great thing about science is it doesn't change based on where you are in the world and what culture you're in. Every human has a brain, and all human brains function the same way. And all human brains need safety, connection and coaching.
So that's been the exciting part about understanding brain science. So, you know, even when I work in Africa, I'll say to people when I get malaria, do they give me a different medication because I'm from Canada or do they give me the same as you? And everybody says, of course, malaria is malaria. You know, it's because of science.
And I love that whole element of science that our brains are made the same. It doesn't matter what culture you're in and it doesn't matter what special needs you have. If I see a child and they're under the table and they're holding their ears, I might not know that child at all. But I know that that child is in red brain. I don't have to know if they're special needs. I don't have to know anything else. I can immediately diagnose what brain state that child is in. And then I can work at creating safety for that child. And connecting with that child. And then we can find out how do we move that child and work with that child, whatever their needs are.
And I have four adopted children, and I have fostered many children. In the process of doing that, I have recognized that every child needs to feel safe, connected, and then we can train them. So, it's like changing the equation for how we work with the children. But it works for all people. So, I don't have to have a different philosophy of parenting for my adopted child or my foster child or my biological children. Does that make sense?
Laura Dugger: (36:53 - 37:03)
Yes, absolutely. And to personalize it, how has The Stoplight Approach then worked in your life and with you and your husband raising your own children?
Cherilyn Orr: (37:05 - 41:32)
I just love the fact that it's a common language. So, I can give you an example of one day there was company coming and I was really stressed. And it seemed like everywhere I looked; every room was a disaster. You know, I had teenagers who were cooking and making themselves food and it was a mess. I had children that had used the bathroom and made a mess all through the bathroom. And then I had toys everywhere and sheets being made into forts. And I had company showing up.
And so, I was going into to Red Brain and I started going, “Who did this? What did you do? Who left this here? Who made this mess?” And one of my kids went and says, “Dad, mom's going to Red.” And that wasn't a judgment. That was like, this is a fact. We need your help here.
And so, dad comes along and he says, he puts his hand on my shoulder and he says, “You're going to Red.” He says, “Why don't you go for a walk? I'll do zone cleanup with the kids because I'm in green. And you can come back in 20 minutes and then you can do all the final tidy up before the kids come. And then that we could greet the company and green.”
So, it just becomes that common language of understanding. And he knew my need at that time. I was feeling unsafe because the house was a disaster. And my brain just was it's a brain issue, right? It's not a behavior issue. But then it was like, how do we support mom in this moment? And then I came back 20 minutes later and did the final little cleanups, and we were able to greet the company in green.
So, there's an example of using the common language as a way to help others in our family know what brain state you're in to support one another. And to be able to identify and connect.
I mean, I could give you tons of examples, even from the smallest child. They start to understand. “He made me go to red” or “I'm in red now.” So, then it's like, OK, so what do we need to do? How do we do this?
I mean, there's been days when all of a sudden I hear everybody kind of not doing too great. And I get them all to sit at the table. And I said, “So what color is our home right now?” And somebody say red. Somebody else says yellow. Then you're saying, “OK, but what kind of home do we want to have?” And they'll say green. So, what do we need to do to get it to green?
So, I think there's there's many, many different ways. But I think it's that common language that even the small child that's two and three can start to learn when they're in red or we can start to use it to teach empathy. When you did that to your sibling, what color did we make him? He didn't feel seen, heard and valued.
Just a few weeks ago, my daughter. Here's here's a recent example. We've had a refugee staying with us for a couple of years, a little girl, and she was about three. All of a sudden there was this blood curdling screaming, you know, just screaming. And I come around the corner going, “What's going on?” And my 12-year-old, very responsible, is holding scissors. She's running with scissors.
And so, my 12-year-old here was a chance to talk. And I said, “OK, so when you took her scissors away, she did not feel seen, heard and valued. Because when you took them away from her, you didn't actually speak to her. So, you need to get down on your knees, and you need to look at her and say, what did you want the scissors for? And we need to teach her. Where do we have scissors? How do we use them?”
So, she was being responsible to keep her safe. But she didn't make her feel seen, heard and valued and listen to her and say, “Oh, you want to cut your hair. Oh, only mommy cuts hair. You can't cut your hair, but we could use our scissors at the table.” So, using red, yellow and green helps to give incredible opportunities to teach empathy and to look at themselves, self-awareness and how to grow and take responsibility.
Laura Dugger: (41:34 - 42:06)
And I love how you talk about this common language in such a proactive way with our children, with our families. So that when we are in red, we've got a path and a plan to get back to green. And we've got some tips for repair.
So, when we go to the proactive side and kind of tie this back into the beginning, when we talked about relationships are the foundation for brain health and development. What are some ways to securely attach with our children during different ages and stages?
Cherilyn Orr: (42:08 - 45:54)
I think it comes back to being intentional. I often think of it as the 5-10-5 rule. Five minutes in the morning, five minutes in the evening and five minutes before they go to bed at night. It's that opportunity to stop what you're doing and to just focus in intentionally connecting with my child.
It's not easy. It's not easy. But it's how do I connect first thing in the morning when that child has been disconnected from me all night long? How do I connect with them first thing in the morning before they start their day? And then how do I connect with them like after school, before dinner? And how do I hear about what they want to tell me about their day? What part was red? What part was yellow? What kind of day they had?
One of my kids goes, “It was lime green.” And I'm like, “Okay, so how did that happen?”
“Well, I was in green and then I lost my backpack. So, I went to yellow, but then the teacher helped me find it. So, then I went back to green.” So that's how she described her day.
And then you have that connecting before they go to bed at night. That's just like, I see you, I know you, I hear you.
And so that can look differently according to different ages and stages of life. But I think holding that 5-10-5 is a good principle. And there are so many of my children that that 5-10-5 happens in hours and hours. Because they are children that demand my attention. And they are there and they are wanting that continual attention. So, some kids it happens more naturally too.
And then there are some children, and especially as they start getting older, it's a lot more challenging to be able to find that 5-10-5. And that doesn't mean in the busyness of the dinner table or in chore times. But it's about trying to connect with them and say, “I hear you. Tell me about your life. And where are you at?” Or just really just having fun with them. And just connecting to them and laughing with them and playing a game with them as well. Or going for a walk. We do a lot of that.
And with teenagers, and especially boys, it was all about the food. I would show up in their room with a milkshake or something else. Or call them out of their rooms to connect with them at different times. So, you have to be creative. It's not about my schedule sometimes. It's about looking at when they are open as well. Especially as you start getting into teenagers.
And I found that one of my teenagers, she'd always like to come and sit on my bed. Just at 11 o'clock at night. Just as I feel like I'm down for the night. And you know that baby is going to start waking up at 6 or 7. And you're just dying to go to sleep. But you know that this is important. She's ready to talk. And so, I need to be available.
Which isn't easy. But also, I think, how do we do that with seven children? Because that's a lot of kids. But my husband and I, we look at dividing and conquering. And then we look at special times. Like daddy time. Or going out with mom. Where I'll take one child to do a chore. Or go shopping. And I think that is really important to think about. How am I intentionally connecting with my child? So, I took a child to Canada recently. And I often will take a different child on different trips that I'm going on.
Laura Dugger: (45:55 - 46:15)
Okay, so five minutes right in the morning. Greeting each other. Five minutes before bed. And finding ten minutes of intentional time to connect. Is that one-on-one throughout the day?
Cherilyn Orr:
Yes.
Laura Dugger:
You've given us so many helpful tips to apply. Is there any other encouragement that you want to make sure that we don't miss out on?
Cherilyn Orr: (46:16 - 47:52)
I think when you hear a lot of these stories. First of all, I want you to know that I am not perfect. As a mom, it's a journey. And I don't want you to go away feeling like, I could never do all this. It's a journey one baby step at a time. And I encourage you to get the book. Listen to podcasts. And be able to join that journey. But don't be hard on yourself. And don't feel that sense of guilt and shame. That says, oh my, I messed up. That's okay.
Being able to recognize you messed up is a good thing. And also recognize that you think, oh man, I messed up on my kids. I did all the wrong things. I want to tell you that we all do the best we can with the knowledge that we have. And that's really, really important to know. It's like, this is a journey. And you are doing the best.
I learned all about behavior management. How do I control my child's behavior? And that was how I parented when I started this journey. And it has been a journey to shift into brain science. And to learn as much as I can about the brain science. And how it impacts my child. And to grow and be the parent that God wants me to be. But don't be hard on yourself in that way. That would be my biggest thing is. And to take one baby step. To decide one baby step that you take.
Laura Dugger: (47:52 - 47:57)
And where can people find and learn more from you online?
Cherilyn Orr: (47:58 - 48:14)
Well, look at the StoplightApproach.org. So that is our website. And you can follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube. And you can preorder and sign up for your book (Signals: How Brain Science and the Bible Help Parents Raise Resilient Children). You can get that on Amazon.
Laura Dugger: (48:15 - 48:32)
Wonderful. We will add those links to the show notes for today's episode. And Cherilyn, you may know we are called The Savvy Sauce. Because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so is my final question for you today. What is your Savvy Sauce?
Cherilyn Orr: (48:33 - 48:55)
I would say that it's not about controlling behavior. It's about connecting with my child. Relationship first rather than behavior first. It's like changing the equation. Relationship is the key. And everything else will flow out of that. And then if you can think of change the brain. Then you'll be able to change the behavior.
Laura Dugger: (48:56 – 49:20)
Oh, I love that. That is memorable. And I really appreciate your emphasis on relationship. And it's so helpful to hear your stories of how this has played out over time. And cultures. And how we can now take this common language into our own homes. So, Cherilyn, thank you so much for sharing this research. And your book with us. And thank you for being my guest today.
Cherilyn Orr: (49:21 – 49:23)
Thank you for having me.
Laura Dugger: (49:24 – 53:06)
One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.
This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.
Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.
Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.
First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.
You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Feb 02, 2026
Monday Feb 02, 2026
282. Family Sabbath: Pause and Delight with Eryn Lynum
Mark 2:27 NIV “Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.”
*Transcription Below*
Eryn Lynum is a certified Master Naturalist, Bible teacher, national speaker, and author. Eryn lives in Northern Colorado with her husband, Grayson, and their four children, whom they homeschool—mainly in the great outdoors. Eryn has has been featured on FamilyLife Today, Proverbs 31 Ministries, Christian Parenting, MOPS International, Bible Gateway, Her View From Home, and For Every Mom. Every opportunity she gets, she is out exploring God’s creation with her family and sharing the adventures. To learn more about Eryn, visit ErynLynum.com.
Eryn’s Free Resources Mentioned
Topics and Questions We Cover:
-
What can this look like to daily align our activities with our deepest values?
-
What do people actually do on this day of rest and what do you recommend for families?
-
Are there any other practical benefits we’re missing out on if we neglect rest?
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company
Related Savvy Sauce Episodes:
81 Rest with Doctor, Author, and Speaker, Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith
99 Sabbath Rest with Sandy Feit
175 Practicing Sabbath with Shireen Eldridge
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
*Transcription*
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:34) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.
Eryn Lynum is my wonderful guest for today, and she's the author of this beautiful book, The Nature of Rest. We're going to discuss all things related to rest, ways that we can prepare for it, how we can enjoy and delight in it, what good gifts God has for us with rest, and then how to reflect well on the rhythms in our life, and so much more.
Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Eryn.
Eryn Lynum: (1:34 - 4:03) Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.
Laura Dugger: Well, I'd love for you to start us off by sharing your personal journey and tell why you are so uniquely qualified to teach and write about rest, as stress can literally kill you.
Eryn Lynum: Yeah, that's correct. So, when I was 14 years old, I was diagnosed with a potentially fatal autoimmune disorder. And kind of the context of that season, I was preparing to go overseas for the first time on a missions trip. So, I was going to be in Africa for two months. And so, before you go do something like that, you have to go to the doctor and get a checkup and vaccine recommendations, all the things. And so, my parents took me in.
Again, I was 14 at the time, and we had no reason to believe that there was anything wrong. There were no red flags. Besides, I had been a little tired, a little dizzy once in a while, but really, we just thought, okay, well, I'm growing up, my body's changing. But when the nurse took my blood pressure that day, it was 56 over 48, which is deathly low.
And so, immediately, that's a red flag. And I undergo more testing and hospital visits and seeing specialists. And they diagnosed me with something called Addison's disease. And Addison's disease, it's where your adrenal glands no longer function. So, maybe you've heard of adrenal fatigue, where someone is so taxed out that their adrenal glands can't keep up because they're meant to produce cortisol, which is our stress hormone. Well, Addison's disease is the worst-case scenario where you can't come back from it, barring a miracle. Like, my adrenal glands don't work, and they haven't for over 20 years now.
And so, you know, this system that God has given us meant to cope with stress, and it's that fight-or-flight response. At that young age, I no longer had that. And so, stress became quite literally deadly to me. And at that point, my parents, they began coaching me in biblical stress management, so identifying stressors in my life.
You know, when your shoulders start creeping up, and you can feel that tension in your neck, and knowing that those are signs that, okay, you need to step back, you need to calm yourself. Like the Psalms talk about, “I have calmed and quieted my soul,” and to bring everything to the Lord and cast all your anxieties upon Him. And this is really where I can see, in my life, I developed a very consistent prayer pattern in my life where just all day long, like conversing with the Lord.
And so, that's been a big part of this. But yeah, that's really what began leading me into this deeply restful lifestyle was out of necessity. But really what I've seen since then is God designed all of us to live and thrive through rest. Like this is His original design.
Laura Dugger: (4:04 - 4:27) I love that so much. And you articulate this so well in your book. But before I ever encountered you, I had never heard of the term master naturalist before. So, if you want to share anything about that, it would be great. And as a master naturalist, where do you see these rhythms of rest in nature?
Eryn Lynum: (4:28 - 6:54) So, a master naturalist, it's really a fancy term for nature teacher. And I pursued this because my degree and my passion are in biblical theology. And I've always been passionate about rightly handling God's word of truth from 2 Timothy 2:15.
And I began to see as my own family, my husband and I, we have three boys and a daughter, and now they're 14 down to seven. But when they were younger and we started spending more time outdoors, I started to see, okay, God has given us so many visuals and materials in nature with which we can teach about Him. Coming from Romans 1:20, that His invisible attributes, those things we can't see about God, are clearly perceived through what He has made. And I saw that also Jesus in the gospels, He used nature all the time to teach.
And God throughout scripture, like it's not just Genesis 1, nature narratives are strong throughout scripture. And so, I thought if God and Jesus use this methodology to teach, then certainly we can. And so, that's why I went through this training and taught, teach with this method is because, you know, the more we understand these materials, the more we see of God and the more we can communicate about Him.
And so, I was working as a master naturalist in our city and teaching my own programs. And I started to incorporate it more and more into my book and then later on in my podcast. And at the same time, God was leading my family into celebrating Sabbath. We had come into this season where we were just exhausted, like running businesses and raising and homeschooling kids, like all of us, no matter our circumstances, face this very real human existence of fatigue. And so, we came to a place where rest was no longer optional. It was critical and vital.
And so, I'm living in these two realms of learning about nature while I'm learning about scripture. And then God is bringing us into deep rest. So, I started to ask the question, where do we see rest in scripture? And I found that it is everywhere. The roots of rest run deep and wide throughout scripture. And also asking, where do we see rest in creation in nature? And it's also everywhere there that God designed all these cycles and these rhythms and all of his plants and creatures, even the ones that we think of as so frenetic and busy that God designed them to thrive through rest.
Laura Dugger: (6:55 - 7:04) And will you give a specific example then of something in nature as it's so apparent that it's designed for rest?
Eryn Lynum: (7:04 - 8:28) Definitely. Let's focus on one of those ones that we often think of as really busy, the hummingbird. I opened the book with the analogy of a hummingbird because when you think about a hummingbird, what do you picture in your mind?
Laura Dugger: (7:17 - 7:19) Busy, constant movement in and out.
Eryn Lynum: (7:20 - 8:28) Yeah, exactly. Like they have to visit between 1,000 and 2,000 flowers every day to get all the nectar that they need. And so, they are always like here and there in the next place. And they look like this little thing just zipping through the air and you can't even see their wings beating because they can be up to 70 times a second. It's this blur of motion. And we think about that little hummingbird, and we can sometimes feel like that little hummingbird just zipping from one thing to the next, thinking there's no time to stop.
But the hummingbird does stop. It has a very strategic method of rest called torpor. And torpor is kind of like a mini hibernation where the little bird is going to go into this deep state of rest. It lowers its body temperature by around 50 degrees and becomes completely unresponsive. And this is a regular thing that the hummingbird does, and it enables it to continue its God-given, good, busy, fruitful work. So, it's this picture of, you know, busyness is not bad. God created us for fruitful work, but it's all meant to be sustained through deep, rhythmic, intentional rest.
Laura Dugger: (8:28 - 9:06) I mean, immediately that makes me think of the weeks, even that I'm most productive, I've probably prioritized my sleep the best of it. And if I get great sleep, even if it's extra hours, that doesn't take away from the rest of the day. That probably makes my time even multiplied.
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I love, you point out so many times how God just clearly designed his creation to enjoy this gift of rest. So, you mentioned some of the nature parts. What about some of the foundational scriptural truths on this topic?
Eryn Lynum: (9:07 - 11:52) Yeah, well, of course, where's the first place that we get the idea of rest in the scripture? Yeah, exactly. So, God completes his work of creation and then he rests and he didn't need to rest. Isaiah 40:28 tells us that he, the creator of the world does not grow weary or tired.
I believe that one reason, and I talk about a couple of them in the book, but I believe that one main reason God rested was to stop and delight. That word Sabbath, it comes from the Hebrew word Shabbat, which can mean to both stop and delight. Like think about God finishing his creative work, bringing, bringing everything from nothing. Ex nihilo is that theological term, everything from nothing. Creating not only the animals and the plants, but the textures and the math and the shapes and the like everything he needed to make these things. And I imagine he just wanted to stop and enjoy it. I can even picture him going through creation and listening to the birds and taking in the colors and the shapes of the clouds.
What a beautiful reminder to us, because I know for myself, I'm so prone to just run from one thing to the next, like check it off the list. What's next? But here God is modeling for us. Stop delight, praise him for what he just allowed us to accomplish, to create, to do before rushing on to the next thing.
And so, we get that first mentioned there at creation, but then think about when Sabbath was actually established, there's a framework, there's a structure it's Exodus 16. And the context here is the Israelites. They're doing what they do. They're wandering and grumbling. They're hangry and God shows mercy to them in the form of quail and manna, but he has very specific instructions for them. He says for six days, you shall gather it, but not on the seventh day. Don't go out. It is a solemn day, a Holy Sabbath to the Lord.
That's the first mention of Sabbath, that word in scripture, but consider the Israelites. They had no context for what God was calling them to do. Surely they could think back to the creation story. Okay. God worked and then rested, but they had very little idea of what he was asking them to do. This was an act of faith. God was saying, stop gathering, trust me.
And this is so hard for us because like we are so prone to gather, gather, gather, do produce work more out of this scarcity mindset. But this picture is showing God is a God of abundance and his math works. When we trust him to be the provider, not ourselves. And we take that risk on rest. He provides abundantly through it.
Laura Dugger: (11:53 - 12:05) Absolutely. And within this gift then of rest, how can rest actually reorder and re-energize our lives?
Eryn Lynum: (12:05 - 14:03) I love this question because throughout the book, we talk a lot about reordering and creating margins. So, we can rest and reprioritizing. You know, it's so interesting when we look at the creation narrative, where we get that first mention of rest, because it's backwards to what we normally think.
Think about this. God created for six days and then he rested. Adam, the first human was created on that sixth day. So, Adam's first full day was a day of arrest, dedicated to rest. And in this, we see that God worked and then rested. But we, humanity, we were always meant to begin from rest.
And you see that even in the Hebrew tradition of a day, their day begins at evening. Their day doesn't start with, let's get up and get to work. Their day starts with, let me go to rest to get ready for the work. So, first we have to reorder our concept of rest, not see it as a reward. Oh, I'm going to work, work, work, get all the things done so that maybe I can rest this weekend or on vacation, or when the kids are out of the house or in retirement, that's backwards to the biblical framework. We are meant to begin from rest.
So, starting there. And as we do that, my family has found after sabbathing for three and a half years now, everything else kind of falls into place. And that happens when you operate by God's design. You know, rest allows us to tend to the most important things. Those deep values, whether like that should be of course, faith and family. So, getting clear on your values is really important. Like what is most important to your family faith? Maybe it's community generosity. Maybe it's physical health, mental health, all these things do better. And we have more time to tend to them when we first make room and space for rest.
Laura Dugger: (14:04 - 16:28) And now a brief message from our sponsor.
With over 1,700 apartment units available throughout Pekin, Peoria, Peoria Heights, Morton and Washington. And with every price range covered, you will have plenty of options when you rent through Leman Property Management Company.
They have townhomes, duplexes, studios, and garden style options located in many areas throughout Pekin. And make sure you check out their newest offering, the McKinley located in Pekin is a new construction addition to their platinum collection featuring nine foot ceilings, large spacious layouts, beautiful finishes, such as courts, countertops, and garages. You won't want to miss this outstanding new property in Peoria, a historic downtown location and apartments adjacent to OSF Medical Center provide excellent choices.
Check out their brand new luxury property in Peoria Heights, overlooking the boutique shops and fine dining on prospect. And in Morton, they offer a variety of apartment homes with garages, a hot downtown location, and now a brand new high-end complex near Idlewood Park. If you want to become part of their team, contact them about open office positions.
They're also hiring in their maintenance department. So, we invite you to find out why so many people have chosen to make a career with them. Check them out on Facebook today or email their friendly staff at leasing@lemanprops.com. You can also stop by their website at lemanproperties.com, check them out and find your place to call home today.
It never ceases to amaze me how God's economy and his math are just different. Sometimes upside down from ours, but I feel like when you're speaking, it reminds me of Matthew 6:33, “But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you.” So, if we actually obey, I think there are so many blessings that we can enjoy from this gift of rest. So, you're talking about our values. Then what can this look like to daily align our activities with our deepest values?
Eryn Lynum: (16:30 - 18:30) Yes, this is an ongoing practice because the enemy is always trying to distract us from what is most important. And that word there is key distract. And so, first we have to learn to identify those distractions, the things that are pulling us away from what is most important, but you know, getting to those core values and on my website, I have, my husband and I developed a family values guide that helps you step by step to really figure out what are our deepest values.
So, that's erinlynum.com/values. But really what it is, is this practice of getting clear on God's best for, for us and for our families and for those around us and, and making sure that we are aligning and realigning because it's going to get out of alignment, those values with God's agenda. You know, a lot of days I just start my day with a restful pause.
I call them in the book, Selah pauses. And I am quite literally, I am sitting before the Lord, my eyes closed and my hands just up in this posture of surrender and receiving. And I will say, Lord, I am surrendering my own agenda, my own expectations for this day. And I want to receive your power, your presence, your peace. And then throughout the day, just taking those checks.
Like I practice these daily Selah pauses and moments of rest because think about Selah in the Psalms. It can mean to pause, to contemplate, to redirect. And we need to do that often because as a day goes on, I think we lose energy and focus. You know, at the beginning of the day, we might feel really like focused. And this is what I'm getting done today. And that can waver like that can wane out as the day goes on. And so, constantly just checking back in.
Okay, Lord, what is it you have for me to do today? And how do I tend to those most important things? But you have to take that restful pause to be able to do that.
Laura Dugger: (18:31 - 18:46) That's good reminder. Okay. So, to check back in with the Lord and then can you give another example of one family and what their value is and how they live that out in their daily life. And maybe even what requires us to say no to.
Eryn Lynum: (18:47 - 20:15) Ooh, that's a fantastic question. Hmm. Can it be for my own family or do you want me to give them love it from your own family?
Okay. I was asked this question recently. Someone asked me, how do you make time to be outside as a family? One of our core family values is to be out exploring in God's creation. And this has been harder in different seasons. And we have two middle schoolers now, you know, we are, we have a lot going on.
And so, it can very quickly happen where at the end of the day, we're like, wow, we really didn't spend much time outdoors today, but how we prioritize this is you do have to say no to other things. So, we're a homeschooling family. And just as an example, it can be very tempting to feel like, am I doing enough? Am I teaching them enough? We need to check off all these boxes and get the lessons done. And it's constantly surrendering that and realizing, you know, I know that our value of being outdoors is important to God. I know that he is meeting my children there. He is meeting me there. He is giving us rest and rejuvenation there.
So, trusting with that, again, going back to the Israelites, stop gathering, stop checking off all the boxes, stop trying to provide and meet your own expectations. And instead stay super focused on what God has called you to and ruthlessly get rid of the rest, anything that's keeping you from that.
Laura Dugger: (20:16 - 20:36) I love that personal example. Thank you for sharing. And how can we also in our own families or in our own life, how can we distinguish which activities are vital for the abundant life in Christ that he offers so that we don't settle for less?
Eryn Lynum: (20:38 - 22:46) I love that you bring up that, that term, the abundant life. In John 10:10, that Christ came, that we might have life and life abundantly overflowing to the fullest, like brimming over is what that word means. And that scripture also says the enemy comes to steal and kill and destroy.
And I believe that one of the enemy's biggest schemes and methods for that is to send us into hurry and hustle mode. And he does that through distraction and discontent. And so, so much of this is pressing back against distraction and discontent and getting back to how God created us to thrive.
And again, I believe that that is through this, this gift of rest. You know, you talk about, you asked about settling for less. The enemy is going to put a million things in our life that would cause us to want to settle for less.
Let me give you an example of him trying to distract us. There was a recent weekend where we were coming up on the weekend, and I had several friends reach out and ask about me doing these things like these different opportunities coming our way. Like, do you want to do this? Do you want to do this? And each of them were for on Saturday and that's usually when our family Sabbaths. And so, I had this tension because these were good things.
It's hard to say no to a good thing, but I kept feeling again and again, the Lord saying, no, rest with your family, rest with your family. And it was so sweet because come Saturday morning, I was out on our back deck sipping coffee with my husband for hours, having incredible conversations, reading great books. The kids are playing in the yard.
Several times I caught myself thinking, I almost said no to this by saying yes to other things. And again, they were good things. This life is full of good things, but God's rest is one of the best things for our families. So, it's learning to be okay with saying no to those good things. So, you can say yes to that better thing.
Laura Dugger: (22:48 - 23:17) Examples are so helpful. And that requires a level of discernment and going to the Lord to ask him, but I'm wondering if you even have a system in place for how you discern that, or is it a gut piece that you follow or any practical ways that each of us can discern what's the right kind of busy that's good. And what's the wrong kind of busy and the things that we want to say no to.
Eryn Lynum: (23:18 - 25:05) Yeah. Going back to, again, busy is not bad. God created us for fruitful work, but I think, you know, when we are following Christ and God's spirit is within us, he's going to give us that sense of this is the right kind of busy.
This is the wrong kind of busy. And practically, you know, if it has any notion of distraction, like if you're doing this thing to just distract you or to procrastinate on better things, if it has a note of busyness, you know, some people will be like, well, some people, the enemy makes us want to think that sitting on our phones can be restful because you're not technically doing much of anything, but that distraction is stealing God's true gift of rest for us.
And so, you know, our family, as we practice Sabbath throughout the week, I know that come Saturday, we have a full day of rest. And sometimes it's tempting to add a little work into there, to let it seep out of those edges of the work week and kind of into our Sabbath. And as you practice this more and more and begin just ruthlessly protecting that time, whether it's a full day, whether you start with a half day, God is going to make you more sensitive to those things. Because sometimes I'll like work it out in my mind, like, oh, this isn't work. And really like it's definitely, it's definitely trying to serve my work during the work week.
And God is saying, no, like step away from that and allow me to refresh and rejuvenate your spirit so that when you go back to the work, you do so much more powerfully energized, restful, and ready to do that work to the very best of your ability with God's power.
Laura Dugger: (25:07 - 25:36) That reminds me of a previous guest I'll link to. He did two episodes, but Jeff Henderson just said he's a pastor too. And he said, sometimes the most spiritual thing you can do is take a nap.
I would agree on that, which you've kind of been sharing a little glimpses of your family's experience with Sabbath, but let's just zero in on Sabbath and I'll just try and go through a series of questions. But first what's the importance of Sabbath?
Eryn Lynum: (25:37 - 26:55) Well, first God commands it. Like if God commanded it, then surely it's important, but that can also sometimes cause us to get a little legalistic about it. What is it? What isn't it? Well, it is meant to be a gift, meant to be a blessing. It's meant to empower us and what God created us for and calls us to.
And so, keeping that just center, this is meant to be a gift, but we see it all throughout scripture, the importance of rest and rest in God's design. It's celebration. Like it's not idleness. It's not doing nothing. Although sometimes like that's the most beneficial way that we can rest. Like you talked about a nap.
I love a good nap on Sabbath, but also it can be energizing activities, inspiring activities. I also love a good long walk on Sabbath. Sometimes I love cooking with fresh ingredients and working on a meal during Sabbath because I don't get much opportunity to do that during the week. Sometimes I love going out and working in the garden because that's life giving and I don't have time to do that throughout the week. And so, getting back to this concept, this idea of Sabbath and rest are celebratory. Like when we do it well as a family, it feels like a mini vacation every week.
Laura Dugger: (26:56 - 27:15) Ooh, I love that. My husband said that before about date night and I connect with that, that it's a little mini reprieve, a mini vacation each week. But then that leads me to the question because I bet so many people share their Sabbath activities with you. What do families actually do on this day of rest?
Eryn Lynum: (27:16 - 31:46) Yeah, that's a great question. And first I'll say that it should look different from family to family. We are all in unique seasons. We have different stories, different scenarios. Again, if you can't start with the full day, now I strongly believe strive and work toward that full day. That's God's design.
And we've seen the most blessing from that. But if you have to start smaller with a half day with four hours, start there. So, it's going to look different. If you have newborns, like a newborn child, it's going to look different and that's okay. No going into it, that it's going to be messy. Hebrews says strive toward rest, work toward rest. It's so counter-cultural. We have to work toward it. So, just going in, knowing these things is very helpful.
It's also going to grow, adapt, and change throughout the seasons. Our family has seen that. But a typical Sabbath for our family right now is we follow the traditional Friday evening to Saturday evening for the most part. Some people ask me, why not Sunday? Isn't Sunday the Sabbath? Well, for us, Sunday is set aside for church community and fellowship and corporate worship. And that's so life-giving to our souls. But by the time I get home from church and I'm making lunch for the family, like I'm not rested physically. So, we needed a separate day set aside for rest.
And so, Friday afternoon, we start preparing where we're going to band together and just pick up the house, get it ready, wash all the dishes and just start preparing our hearts, our minds, our bodies, our home for rest. And then we start Friday evening with communion as a family, just breaking bread and celebrating what Christ did on our behalf. And again, that, that idea of celebrate, and this marks it as special. Okay. We're heading into Sabbath. Some families will like light a white candle for Sabbath, just really marking it.
And then we have, we toast to the week. So, we'll pour sparkling juice and just toast and say, “Hey, what did we see God do this week?” Like going back to that idea of stop and delight, we are setting a hard stop to the week. We are delighting. What did we see God do? What did he help us overcome? What can we thank Him for from this past week? And then we'll do an easy dinner. Think tacos, take and bake pizza spaghetti.
We use paperware, which is a bit controversial since I work as a master naturalist, but it has been an easy button for Sabbath that I'm not worried about like dishes piling up on the counter. And then we'll, we'll wrap it up with a sweet treat like ice cream and then our kids go to bed, or they'll listen to audio books. Audio books have been massive for our Sabbath because they're screen-free because we do put away all screens and work like devices on Sabbath, but they can listen to good books.
And my husband and I, we read, like people ask me, when do you find time to read? You don't find time to read. You have to make time to read. And for us, that's on the Sabbath mostly. And then Saturday we sleep in, we get up pretty early during the week and the kids just know like you don't wake mom and dad on the Sabbath. Like that's their day to sleep in.
Again, if you have a newborn or young children, that's gonna look different and that's okay. But for us, that's the season that we're in and our kids, they'll make themselves first breakfast and then eventually we'll get up and we'll join them for a second breakfast or some Sabbath. I don't want to cook at all. And so, it's just take and forage. And you know, I usually have a grocery delivery the day before or go to the grocery store and make sure we just have a ton of good stuff in the house. So, no one's, you know, everyone has what they need.
Then the rest of the day, it is just a day of delight. Reading books, playing games, being out in creation, visiting with neighbors, having great conversations together. Sabbath is this space where you get to do all those things during the week that you're like, oh, I wish I had time for that and you just don't get to them. Like recently my daughter during the week, she really wanted me, she's seven. She wanted me to sit down and watercolor paint with her, which I love doing, but it was a really busy week. And I just didn't have the space.
And so, I told her like, “Hey, I would love to do that. Can we do that on Sabbath?” And she was so happy with that answer. And come that Sabbath a few days later, she remembered, she came up to me. She's like, mom, it's time to paint. And she got all the supplies, and we went and sat outside at our picnic table and painted for the afternoon.
You know, Sabbath does so much for me as a mom to remove that guilt of the things I don't feel like I have time for because I know, and my kids know, Sabbath is coming and that's our day to be together and do those things.
Laura Dugger: (31:47 - 31:57) Hmm. Okay. That makes me curious. Then to how much of a vote does everyone in the family get for what Sabbath will look like?
Eryn Lynum: (31:57 - 34:02) Oh, that is a great question. No one's ever phrased it to me like that before. I love that. What we found that's been important to keep in mind is that we all individually find different things, restful and inspiring. I'll give you an example. One Sabbath, my husband, especially in the spring, he loves to work in the yard on Sabbath because he spends most of his week. He runs a construction company on the computer or on the phone. And so, in the spring, he wants to be out in the yard and trimming his fruit trees and just working with God's creation. And so, one Sabbath he comes and he has like the clippers in his hand and he's like, “Hey, let's go work on the yard.”
And I was like, that's great. You do that. I'm going to go read my book in the hammock. And I fell asleep for two hours while he worked on the yard. And so, a lot of this is being okay that yes, a lot of it's going to be together. Like I talked about, we did, we do communion together and we do meals together. And a lot of times we'll be out on a hike together. That's a favorite Sabbath activity. But a lot of times we're also doing separate activities.
The kids are enjoying their books or their audio books or their painting or their, uh, visiting the neighbor kids. And my husband and I are reading books on the back deck. And so, it's okay that there's going to be some together time and some separate time, you know, just being flexible with it. Like our first year of Sabbath, we went, we had to go like hardcore. We had to learn to stay. I think about in the book, I talk about the word abide meno in the Greek and it can mean to stay, to dwell, to remain.
So, we've spent our first year of Sabbath, not getting in the car. We stayed home and learned to just be home together. And after that year, we started to miss our time. We live in Colorado, missing our time hiking in the mountains. And so, we changed it. We said, okay, well, toward the end of Sabbath Saturday afternoon, Saturday evening, let's go hike or let's go have a picnic in the wilderness. And just being open to that, that God's going to change you as a family and change you individually. And just growing up in a Sabbath practice together.
Laura Dugger: (34:03 - 34:20) I like the freedom that you're communicating there. And then when you mentioned the neighborhood kids, it makes me curious. Do you encourage community for some of those who recharge with other people? Would you recommend Sabbath thing with others or just keeping it your family?
Eryn Lynum: (34:21 - 36:16) Absolutely. We love inviting others into Sabbath. And it actually started with, we started our Sabbath practice. It was so sweet because God convinced us to do this. And then our first Sabbath was on January 1st. That happened to be the first Saturday that we did it. So, it was like this fresh start. And right around that time, we had moved to a new neighborhood. And our neighbors near us are Messianic Jews.
And they follow Shabbat, the traditional Shabbat. And they invited us into that. It was the sweetest evening, and they have children, young children, like we do. So, like there's chaos and there's mess. And then there's sweet times of singing together and scripture reading. And they follow it much more the traditional method than our family has.
But it was so sweet to be invited into that and to get a picture for how to invite others into this rest. And so, absolutely, we encourage, especially our kids having friends over. And we do usually ask parents, hey, can you drop them off? And then we can bring them back maybe like later that day toward the end of our Sabbath. Or if you want to come pick them up. Because again, we like to just stay home if we can.
But our kids are to the point now too where they can ride their bikes over to friends' houses. And we're fine with that. They might not be home on Sabbath once in a while. It's not a regular thing. But they're getting fed. And we know that the people they're with are people who share our values, people that we do life together.
We love having bonfires in the backyard on Sabbath. Now one thing I have to be careful of is I don't want to invite people over and feel like I need to host or clean up first. And so, for one, we don't have full families over a whole lot on Sabbath because I just don't want any sort of self-induced, self-imposed pressure.
But sometimes it's so much fun to just be like, hey, let's go meet at a park and have a picnic dinner. Or let's have a family over and do a bonfire. Just making sure that you're keeping it really, really simple if you are going to incorporate community.
Laura Dugger: (36:17 - 37:54) Guess what? We are no longer an audio-only podcast. We now have video included as well. If you want to view the conversation each week, make sure you watch our videos. We're on YouTube, and you can access videos or find answers to any of your other questions about the podcast when you visit thesavvysauce.com.
Some of these things, like you said, “They do require forethought where you have the groceries coming or certain things in place. And I think you even refer to it as a sacred striving.” So, it's important for us to learn more about that. And here's a quick story.
I just remember we've moved states quite a few times in marriage. But when I was a young mom, there was a mom in the next season of life, and she had more kids than we did. And we went to church together, and she was just like, “Oh, we learned about Sabbath. That's not a thing for moms with multiples.” And I always wrestled with that, and I love her. She's a wonderful person. Maybe she's even changed her stance on that, so it's not to speak ill of her. But I do think that we can struggle with that because that's not an actual truth. I do think that's a message from the enemy.
So, I guess this is a two-part question. How do we protect ourselves from buying into a storyline that is not true that may hold us back from Sabbath? And then also, what is kind of the both and? It's both restful, and it requires a lot of work up front to make this a reality.
Eryn Lynum: (37:55 - 41:19) It does, and knowing that, that it is going to take work, but God's going to bless it. Think about Isaiah 55:10-11, that says, “Just like the rain and the snow go forth and produce life and bring forth life from the land, so my work goes out and does not return void or empty. It produces that which I sent it out for.”.
That is true for Sabbath and rest because, again, we find it all throughout scripture. So, know that it's going to take hard work, but God will not allow it to return void. He will bless our efforts as we step into His design that He created us for.
I talk about in the book a few ways that you have to prepare mentally, physically, and spiritually. So, mentally, for me, I have to just totally remove anything mentally that's going to distract me from rest. So, I own a business, and so a lot of my work is on the computer and on the phone. I will answer, so this is like Friday, I'll answer any lingering emails, those ones that are going to be on my mind if I don't get to them. And then I put an away message on my email. So, if anyone emails me on our Sabbath, it sends an automatic reply that says, hey, thanks for your message. My family's resting. It has a little blurb in there about Sabbath. I'll get back to you in the new week.
That gives me permission to not even look at my email. In fact, people expect that I'm not looking at my email if I'm keeping my word. And so, this has just freed me up mentally to step away, and then I literally put my laptop in my closet.
With my phone, I set it to a Sabbath mode, and you can create these different focus modes if you have a smartphone, so that I can only receive messages from my mom in case of emergency. And our people, our friends, they all know this now. Like, oh, I'm not going to hear back from Erin because it's Saturday for the most part.
And so, these little things that you might just need to mentally prepare yourself. And then physically, that goes back to preparing our home. So, this is not a deep clean that we do prior to Sabbath. It's just tending to the things that are going to distract me if we don't get to them beforehand. So, again, washing all the dishes and having the kitchen clean, vacuuming. Like, that's like just a hack to make the house feel clean is I feel like it's clean if it's vacuumed.
So, just these little things, and then physically also doing that grocery order. And I have a free Sabbath guide on my website, erinlynum.com/family-sabbath. And it walks you through creating your Sabbath grocery list so that every week you have what you need in the house. These little things that truly make it, Sabbath easier and more successful.
And then preparing spiritually, going into this, like a lot of times I'll know, okay, I'm going to study this on Sabbath. For our first year, I just had like this stack of books on Sabbath that I would work through on our Sabbath. Right now, I am parked in Genesis 1 and have been for weeks. And so, just preparing spiritually, you know, this is a time of communion with our creator, with our heavenly father. And so, just having an idea of, you know, this is how I want to spend time delighting in God on the Sabbath.
That might be a long walk. That might be time in the word or time of worship but making sure that that is a keystone part of your Sabbath practice.
Laura Dugger: (41:20 - 41:45) And, you know, it really is possible. I just think so many of us celebrate holidays and we do the same thing where we plan, prepare, prioritize ahead of time so that we can delight in that day. And what a gift to get to do that weekly. So, with all of these amazing benefits, why do we still resist God's design for rest?
Eryn Lynum: (41:46 - 43:00) Because we live in a fallen world, broken by sin, and the enemy wants to do everything he can to keep us from this. This is God's design and our faith, and our souls and our families flourish in this design. And so, the enemy is going to do whatever he can to keep us from it.
He's going to insert fear. He's going to insert distraction. He's going to insert doubt. You know, when we started this practice coming up to it, I was thinking, there's no way, like how are we going to get everything done in one last day a week, all these doubts. And yet what we found so quickly is that as we took this step of faith, we quickly became so much more productive and effective and creative during the work week, because we were starting from rest and following God's design.
We resist this because it is counter-cultural. Everything in society is set up against us doing this and succeeding in this. So, again, going and knowing that our war is not against flesh and blood. It is against the powers of the spheres, like things unseen. The enemy is against us, but God is on our side. And as we step into his design, he's going to make much of it.
Laura Dugger: (43:01 - 43:12) Okay. So, if we are convinced and we want to give this a try, what is a practical first step to just obeying this and receiving this gift of rest?
Eryn Lynum: (43:13 - 45:23) Yeah, super practical here. Two first steps. The first is to set a day and time. Now you're not committing to this forever. And again, if you, if a big hesitancy here is I can't do a full day. Okay. Work and pray toward that but start smaller. If it's four hours on a Wednesday, guard that time. Ruthlessly guard it. Don't let anything be written on the schedule besides that.
So, set a day in time and then write two lists. This is going back to the idea of stop and delight, right? Your stop list. These are things that send you into hurry and hustle mode, things that are related to normal work, things that feel heavy. Some of them are so important.
Again, our work is important, but this is going to be things like devices, media, regular work, answering emails, phone calls. It might be driving in traffic. It might be spending money. Write down those things that feel heavy. That's your stop list. The things you're not going to entertain on that day or that time.
And then write your delight list. This might be hard at first because what I've found with myself, with many of us is that we forget what we delight in but causes that childlike sense of play and wonder. This is learning to be human again, coming back to those things.
So, it might be playing music or listening to music, working with fresh ingredients, reading a good book, writing by hand, watercolor painting, going for a walk. What we find is that a lot of people who spend time during the week in front of a computer want to be outdoors on the Sabbath, but people who run a landscaping company might want to be inside with a great book. So, just writing down those things that are, again, those things that you think during the week, oh, I really wish I could get to that.
Only we don't. Those are your delight list. So, now you have a day and a time. You know what you're not going to do, what you're setting aside, even physically, that should probably most definitely be your phone. Stick it in a drawer. I have my Sabbath drawer where I put my phone, and then you know what you're going to do and spend that day on.
Laura Dugger: (45:24 - 45:47) That's so good. And for those who have been listening for a while, they could even put their phone in their RO box, and I could link to that episode as well with Joey Odom. That's incredible about where our phone could be in its right place.
But Eryn, are there any other practical benefits that we might be missing out on that you've seen as a result of this Sabbath rest?
Eryn Lynum: (45:48 - 49:44) One of my favorite benefits is how it unlocks our creativity. Whether you work in a career or position that you consider creative or not, God designed all of us to be creative, to produce. And so, what I have found is that my work, my work is very in that creative sphere, writing books, creating podcast lessons for children.
It's very creative work. And I've found that Sabbath is this day where God gives my mind rest. It's so incredible thinking about how he wired our brains to thrive through rest, and science points to that that a restful mind is better at problem-solving, connecting ideas, remembering details.
And so, as my mind is allowed to rest on Sabbath, and I'm out on a walk in nature, or I'm reading a good book, or I'm writing by hand, when it comes time to sit down at the computer Monday morning, I am ready. I am flowing with ideas. They are there.
And I'll give you an example. This one isn't from Sabbath. It's from one of my daily rest rhythms that I call Selah Pause, and that's a walk in the morning. And this might be a little controversial, but this is not an easy stroll. I have my rucking pack on, and I'm trekking up a hill, which is not physically restful, of course, but it's mentally restful for me. I love it.
And so, it was in January, so it's frigid out, and everything's covered in snow, and I'm in all my snow gear, and I'm trudging up this hill. And at the time, I was dealing with a problem in my podcast where it was a good problem. We had spent the month teaching about God's designs in the human body. So, we had taught kids about God's designs in cells and DNA and the heart and the brain, but I didn't want to just let this series end. I wanted to wrap it up in some powerful way, and I didn't know how. So, I could have stayed home that morning and hashed this out and been at the computer, and how should I end this thing?
Instead, I went on this walk, and God just dropped this idea in my mind. And it was this idea. He said, ask the kids how they are wonderfully made. And that was the top. The theme was wonderfully made. And so, I put it out there to my email list. When I got back from that walk, I said, hey, I would love to hear how you kids believe you are wonderfully made by the creator. And I opened up this little voice mailbox on our website, and I didn't know if anyone would respond. And then I'm like, what if they don't? And then I don't know what to do because I said I'm going to do this thing.
I tell you, message after message came in from children from ages. I think it was three or four up to 14 from all over the world. And I was weeping as I edited that episode. I had planned to add something at the beginning and the end to build out this episode. I didn't do that because it was, I believe it's 22 minutes straight of children saying, this is my name.
I'm five years old. I live in England and I'm wonderfully made because God made me to read well or God made me fast. Or one little boy shared, he said, I know I'm wonderfully made because my mama lost a baby before me. And I'm here and I'm wonderfully made. And I'm weeping.
And this idea that God gave me, I would have missed it if I hadn't taken that pause to be out in his creation walking that day. And so, that's a very roundabout way to get back to your question of what are the other benefits? We hear from God when we make time for rest. And if we keep just rushing and hurrying, I'm concerned that we are walking by so many opportunities to hear from his spirit and to let him unlock that potential within us.
Laura Dugger: (49:45 - 50:22) Oh, I love that. And I'm even reminded of one other thing that you write in your book that today, one way we can practically experience his original design of rest is by stepping outside. And you're full of tips and ideas like that, but I so appreciate those stories.
So, you've equipped us with this foundation of rest and ways that we can prepare for it, how we can enjoy and delight in it. And so now, Eryn, how can we reflect well on our rhythms of work and rest?
Eryn Lynum: (50:25 - 53:19) So, much of this is reflection. So, much of this is stopping to consider where God is at work in our lives, where we need to recalibrate, where we need to realign, where we need to step back into his pace because we're trying to run ahead of him. And one way that we can see it, you know, like you might ask the question, am I at rest? Even me sometimes on Sabbath, I'm like, am I doing this right? Like, is this actually restful? Is this what I'm supposed to be doing?
I think we can answer that question by the fruit in our lives, the fruit inside of us that God is producing and the fruit that we are producing. So, one thing I kind of sum up the book on is this question of, are you growing in truth and love? Because the enemy, when he gets us away from God's rest and into hustle, into distraction and hurry, we are not fully experiencing God.
And so, our levels of experiencing his love and offering it to others is going to suffer. Our experience of hearing his truth and living that truth out in our lives is going to suffer. And so, the opposite is true that as we live at rest, this whole concept of abide, that is living at rest, not just these rest practices, but living at rest in God's restful presence, we are going to be producing more love and more truth.
So, that's like a key visual. And then I love on that idea of abide. We spent a whole week on abide in the book and, you know, John chapter 15 being the abide passage. And what we see there is there's these 11 mentions of that word abide. And they all refer to us abiding in Christ, Christ abiding in us, God's word abiding in us. So, all this connectivity between Christ and God and us and his word.
But then it's, I think it's verse 16. There's a different mention of meno, abide. And it says that he wants us to go out and produce fruit that abides. So, this is different. It relates to our fruit and that word abide. Yes, it can mean dwell, remain, stay, but it can also mean continue and endure.
God created us to produce fruit and fruit that endures. Doesn't rot, doesn't fade, but continues into eternity. So, we can look at, okay, am I personally in my spirit? Am I growing in truth and love? Because God's spirit actually has the space to minister to me when I rest. And is that rest directly affecting the fruit of my life?
These are key things that we can look at and ask to see. Are we truly living from God's rest?
Laura Dugger: (53:19 - 53:53) I love questions so much. And that's so good to reflect then on the fruit that's being produced. And a mentor many years ago said, you never reap what you sow in the same season. So, that's a great place to even begin just reflecting. What did we do in the past season and what fruit are we reaping now? And where do we want to go then from here?
And one place we could go from here after this chat is to follow you. And you've mentioned your podcast. Do you want to elaborate on all the places that you're available?
Eryn Lynum: (53:54 - 55:03) Yes, thank you. So, the new book, The Nature of Rest is available wherever you get your books, along with my second book, Rooted in Wonder: Nurturing Your Family's Faith Through God's Creation. And that's all about taking our kids or grandkids, the next generation outside and reconnecting the dots between creation and creator. Really returning nature study and time outdoors to its proper place as theology and the study of God.
So, those are available anywhere, including Amazon or my website, which is my name, erynlynum.com. And then my podcast is Nat Theo, short for Natural Theology. It's nature lessons rooted in the Bible. It's a podcast for kids and families where we dive deep into science and all the design and intelligence we see in creatures and plants. And we tie it all back to biblical truth so that our kids are learning science and theology at the same time.
And that's available on any podcast platform, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, right on my website, erinlynum.com, as well as YouTube. We actually provide visuals so you can watch what you're learning about as well.
Laura Dugger: (55:04 - 55:22) So, incredible. We will add links to that in the show notes for today's episode. And Eryn, you may already be familiar. We're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Eryn Lynum: (55:24 - 56:34) I love this question. And this is one that actually I was like, oh, I'm not asked this much. I'm going to have to really think deeply on this one.
It's get outside every day. That seems so simple, even though it's not really simple in practicality. But one thing I've learned through rest and through time outdoors is that 10 minutes matters. Like if you think I don't have time for this, but you have a 10 minute slot, go for a walk and see how God just communes with your spirit. Even in the dead of winter, if you live somewhere cold, like if it's safe to do so. For me, I had to buy like the best pair of snow pants I could find because I used to really dislike the winter. And I would just become like really down in those winter months.
And so, God just convinced me, don't go outside every single day if it's for 10 minutes. And then pretty often he just extends that. Like I think I'm going out for 10 minutes. And sure enough, I'm like playing with my kids outside. It's much longer.
But yeah, as best as you can, just prioritize that. If you have to do it first thing in the morning to make sure it happens, go for a walk and watch the sunrise. And God is going to minister to your soul through his creation.
Laura Dugger: (56:35 - 56:54) Amen. Amen. That is so good.
And this conversation has been so rich. Eryn, it is just very clear you have filled up on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you have just poured out goodness and love and truth for all of us, all over all of us today. So, thank you for all that you shared. And thank you for being my guest.
Eryn Lynum: (56:55 - 57:03) Thank you. Thank you so much for that encouragement. That means a whole lot to me. So, thank you. And for the opportunity for a great conversation.
Laura Dugger: (57:03 - 1:03:10) I really enjoyed it.
One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.
This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.
Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.
Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.
First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.
You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Monday Jan 26, 2026
Monday Jan 26, 2026
Special Patreon Release: Better Together with Jon and Jolene Rocke
"What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." Mark 10:9 (KJV)
*Transcription Below*
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
- What are you so thankful you did in every season of marriage, from newlyweds to empty nesters that you see the pay off now in the present?
- How has grace and forgiveness benefited your relationship?
- What advice do you have for all of us married couples as we seek to grow as one, rather than grow parallel or even grow apart from one another?
Jon and Jolene Rocke are my local friends and my guests for today. They work side by side at Peoria Rescue ministries, and they have so many lovely gifts of leadership and hospitality and teaching, but the topic we are going to focus on today is marriage. From the first time we met, Mark and I adored them and appreciated their sweet bond with one another, and I'm so thrilled to introduce you to them today. Here's our chat:
Jon and Jolene both grew up in Christian homes and accepted Jesus as their Savior and Lord at the age of 15. Jon is from Morton and Jolene from Elgin, IL. They met on a bus ride to a Youth Gathering in Minnesota. They sat together and talked the whole way home about life, the Bible and God. Jon played his guitar and sang John Denver songs and their match was made with “Sunshine on my Shoulders”.
They married at the age of 18 and had their first child, Janelle, at 19. They left for Grace college in Winona Lake, Indiana with an 18 month old toddler in tow and had another baby girl born while in college named Jaime. At graduation in 1984, they were accepted to Trinity Seminary to follow Jon’s desire to be a Professor of Theology, but became pregnant with their son, Jordan, which changed every plan and sent them back home to build up their finances.
They came back to Morton and worked in the Family Business and felt called to stay. They raised their 3 children in Morton working in the business until God loosened their tent pegs and called them to Peoria Rescue Ministries in 2017. Jon is the Executive Director and Jolene is the Ministry Ambassador. They are thankful to be working side-by-side in this new season of their marriage.
Jon and Jolene will celebrate their 44th wedding anniversary and have 3 married children and have 10 grandchildren. Their son Jordan and his wife Jessica live in Sandpoint, Idaho with their 3 Kids. Their daughter Janelle and husband Ryan live in Kennesaw, Georgia with their 3 children. And their daughter Jaime and her husband Jonathan live here in Morton with their 4 children.
Related Episodes from The Savvy Sauce:
5 Love Languages with Dr. Gary Chapman
Traveling with Your Family with Katie Mueller
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
The 5 Love Languages of Teenagers
A Teen's Guide to the 5 Love Languages
Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and The Savvy Sauce Charities (and donate online here)
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website.
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
*Transcription*
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 2:05) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. I want to say a huge thank you to today's sponsors for this episode, Chick-fil-A East Peoria and Savvy Sauce Charities.
Are you interested in a free college education for you or someone you know? Stay tuned for details coming later in this episode from today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. You can also visit their website today at https://www.chick-fil-a.com/locations/il/east-peoria.
If you've been with us long, you know this podcast is only one piece of our nonprofit, which is the Savvy Sauce Charities. Don't miss out on our other resources. We have questions and content to inspire you to have your own practical chats for intentional living.
And I also hope you don't miss out on the opportunity to financially support us through your tax-deductible donations. All this information can be found on our recently updated website, thesavvysauce.com.
Jon and Jolene Rocke are my local friends and my guests for today. They work side by side at Peoria Rescue Ministries, and they have so many lovely gifts of leadership and hospitality and teaching. But the topic we're going to focus on today is marriage. From the first time we met, Mark and I adored them so much and really appreciated their sweet bond with one another. And I'm so thrilled to get to introduce you to them today.
Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Jon and Jolene.
Jon Rocke: (2:05 - 2:06) We're so happy to be here, Laura. Thanks so much for having us.
Laura Dugger: (2:07 - 2:43) Well, it's truly my pleasure. And will the two of you just start by giving us a little background on how you came to know Christ as your personal Lord and Savior?
Jolene Rocke: (2:07 - 2:43) Yeah, I grew up in the Chicago area in a suburb and in a Christian home. So, I was very thankful to know about God. And I came to know Him as my personal Savior at 15. And so, then I really had a complete change. And from then on, I have just followed Him as close as I can. So very thankful for Jesus.
Jon Rocke: (2:44 - 2:59) Yeah, and I was actually 15 as well. Became overwhelmed with my sin at 15 and knew that I did not know Christ. And so, since then, a very imperfect following, but glad to be part of the family.
Laura Dugger: (3:00 - 3:15) Well, and that's awesome that both of you were 15 and never knew that piece of your story. But I'm assuming you were living in different places. So then how did the two of you meet and fall in love?
Jolene Rocke: (3:15 - 4:40) That is such a funny story. Because I, along with a friend of mine from Elgin, jumped on a Morton bus going to Morris, Minnesota. And they picked us up in Rockford. And we got on the bus, went to the same youth gathering for our church denomination. And on the way home from that weekend, we sat on the bus the whole way home and talked.
And Jon had what was so interesting to me, a study Bible. And I had never seen a study Bible in my life. And so, he showed me what an open Bible was with notes at the bottom. And because I came to Christ at 15 and started Bible study on my own with just a spiral notebook, a pen, and my Bible, I was fascinated by this Bible.
And I heard from Morton girls that he carried his Bible everywhere. So, he was kind of different than the rest of the guys. And I told them that's the kind of guy I was looking for. And then to top it all off, he had a guitar. And he sang John Denver songs to me. So, Sunshine on My Shoulders, I think, really made me happy.
Laura Dugger: (4:40 - 4:45) Just knowing your family music is such a big part of worship. Yeah. That's part of what wooed you, too.
Jon Rocke: (4:40 - 5:35) Yeah. Part of the crazy story is that it's a long trip. It's like a 12-hour trip. And so, we left Morton at like 5 in the morning. And so, I'm sleeping on the floor. And we picked these girls up. And I wake up, and I'm like, “Oh, an angel just got on the bus.” That's what I thought. And she was like, she didn't really have anything to do with me the whole weekend till the way home.
But we have a lot of fun with that story. And so that was the beginning. I think I sent flowers the next day. And we began, actually, a very long-distance, over-the-phone relationship, getting to know each other. And we actually went through, I think, the Book of Romans together over the course of, I guess, a year. And then got married. And we were pretty young.
Jolene Rocke: (5:36 - 6:47) Yeah. We met when Jon was just 16. And then two weeks after his 18th birthday, we got married. And I'm a year older. So, it was very young. But we are so thankful because we're going to celebrate 44 years of marriage here.
So, God knit us together, I think, through the fact that we were both really pursuing the Lord individually. And then we were so happy to find somebody like that. I thought I was headed to be a missionary in Africa at the time I met him. And he was, like, searching, too. But both all out pursuit of Christ. And so, I think that's what knit our hearts together. And it didn't hurt that he sent flowers the next day.
Laura Dugger: (6:47 - 7:15) It was a wise move. But I love it because the two of you have really grown up together. Totally. You've been meeting as teens. When you reflect back, what are you so thankful that you did in every season of marriage, from newlyweds to now empty nesters, that you're getting to see the payoff now in the present?
Jon Rocke: (6:49 - 8:10) Yeah, I think sometimes you are intentional. And we've tried to be intentional. But I think sometimes God brings circumstances into your life that sort of force something. So not only were we young when we got married, but nine months after we got married, yeah, we had Janelle, our oldest daughter.
And so, we had to realize we still needed time together. And we had a little baby. It began, I think, an intentional course for us to carve out time. So, you know, we put our kids to bed early. It was a big deal for us as parents that we had our time after they went to bed because we didn't get a whole lot of time.
And other little silly things, the kids didn't get to sit in between us at church. That was the rule. You can sit on either side of mom and dad, but you can't sit in between us. And so that was just, you know, again, a little thing that we did. And some things we had to learn. I'm more of a night person. Jolene's more of a morning person. Part of that, we had to learn at one point, you know, let's make sure we prioritize going to bed together. Just so, again, we had that time. So, there's been all sorts of different steps along the way that we've tried to prioritize each other.
Jolene Rocke: (8:10 - 9:01) So the two words that come to my mind with regard to that are compromise. You're two different people, and you're suddenly thrust together into a home situation. Well, that took compromise on both of our parts. So that's kind of sacrifice, too. That means he doesn't get to stay up until midnight if we want to go to bed together, and I'm going to have to push myself to stay up later just so that we can make a common bedtime.
So, compromise, and then I think the other major thing to me would be communication, because we didn't have a relationship before marriage where we were in the same town and could see each other all the time or go on dates. We didn't have that. So, we had letter writing. This is 43 years ago. So, we had letter writing daily.
Jon Rocke: (9:02 - 9:04) Some of us were daily. He was daily.
Jolene Rocke: (9:05 - 9:11) I wasn't quite as good at letter writing every day, but I was in college by now.
Jon Rocke: (9:11 - 9:13) You were still in high school. Now we know.
Jolene Rocke: (9:14 - 10:15) But I think the communication factor, that actually helped us because, yes, I realize face-to-face dating is a great thing, but to not be able to do that and have nothing but be able to write your day out, what happened during your day, you're learning to tell the other person what happened in your day, how you felt about that, what your dreams, your goals are. So, it started, to me and us, I think a great foundation of communication.
Laura Dugger: (10:15 - 10:30) And is it Song of Songs, I believe, 5:16, where part of it says, “This is my lover, this is my friend,” and that's what I'm hearing, is that you were really deepening your friendship in those early years and that from witnessing your lives, it seems that has only continued.
Jolene Rocke: (10:30 - 10:35) Yeah, exactly. We are so thankful. It's a very different story than most people, but we're so thankful.
Jon Rocke: (10:16 - 10:39) I think also, for us, it was Genesis 2 in the sense that you need to leave everything else and cleave together. We were young. It's hard to believe. When we look back, we think about our kids and our grandkids and would we want that for them, and yet I don't think we'd trade it for the world.
Laura Dugger: (10:40 - 10:52) I love that. And what encouragement do you have for others then who are also wanting to build a foundation of remaining connected and intimate in all the aspects of their own marriage?
Jon Rocke: (10:53 - 12:07) That's one of those things about being intentional. Matthew 19:6, where Christ repeats that adage from Genesis 2, that God created them male and female, they need to leave mother and father and cleave together, but then he adds this, “and no one should tear that apart.” And we often think about that, I think, as other people tearing that apart, and that's true.
But the same goes, we can tear ourselves apart if we're not going to make sure everything else, all other distractions, because they're going to continually come, right? And again, we had kids so early that I think we knew we had to carve that time out, because if we wouldn't have, I'm not sure how that would have worked. We would have been so consumed early. But career, we've just known that we've had to say, if we don't make sure that we're the priority, it's so easy to get lost in all the other things of life that are not bad. Kids are not bad, they're great. And your careers and your work, that's all good. But it can be the enemy of great in a marriage.
Jolene Rocke: (12:07 - 12:32) Yeah, we talked about the fact that this is how we started all those years ago. But a pursuit of God individually actually enhances a pursuit of God together. I'm still in the Word individually. Jon's still in the Word individually. But we also then read and pray together every night. So just this pursuit of God.
Jon Rocke: (12:32 - 13:06) But that wasn't something we did from day one either. I mean, that was a learned scenario where one time we were just kind of convicted of the fact that together we're not taking time to pray and read together. And so, then we just made that part of routine at night. So then again, that made us say we're going to go to bed together. Because if we didn't, then we didn't have that time. That opportunity to pray together and read together has just become a connection point that we wouldn't want to trade.
Laura Dugger: (13:07 - 13:55) I think that's encouraging in so many ways because you've grown into this. And I think for anyone just starting out, it's so helpful to see you didn't let excuses get in the way. It reminds me of a supervisor in college who said, “If you want something done, give it to a busy person.” And I think in a unique way with you two being launched into parenthood nine months after you were married, you didn't have the luxury of being frivolous with your time. And you chose intentionality. And it seems like God really has blessed that and honored it.
Jolene Rocke: (13:55 - 14:05) Yeah and continued it to this day. You're very right. We continue to be busy. And that's still the struggle to combat that with intentional time together. So definitely.
Jon Rocke: (13:55 - 14:31) You talk about seasons in our lives. So, I had to have a hip replacement. So, from like 23 till I had that at 50, I couldn't take long walks. But now we get to walk together, which is a huge privilege. And so, I always think about it. I'm not into exercise to exercise, but I'm into being together. And exercise is a thing we can do together. The other thing we did in our, I guess it was on our 25th. We got a tandem bike. And we love doing our tandem bike.
Jolene Rocke: (14:31 - 16:21) But he wanted a tandem bike right when we got married. And I kept saying, no, I didn't really want to sit on the back and have no control. And not be able to see when I thought I should break or when I wanted to turn.
So, this is something that I often encourage women that are moving into the emptiness season of life. I was driving to church alone. And the Lord really impressed on me that the extreme lavish amount of love that as a homemaker I gave to my children who were now gone, I needed to transfer that to my husband.
I've always loved Jon first and best. But I needed to take even the time commitment. What could I do to show Jon I loved him lavishly the way I tried to my children? So that was a time thing for me. And it was like get a tandem bike. So, I was willing then to get the tandem and sit in the back. And you really do; you're called the stoker. You really do work in the back. You don't just sit there. You work. But I no longer had the control of that. And I am learning to see butterflies land on corn stalks. And I actually love our tandem bike. But God had to grow me. And that was part of my several gifts to him in emptiness period that has helped us keep a strong marriage, I think.
Laura Dugger: (16:21 - 16:30) And isn't that interesting how there's a gift in it for you? Like you offer this sacrifice and yet he's teaching you new things.
Jon Rocke: (16:21 - 16:22) I love it, yeah.
Laura Dugger: (16:23 - 16:45) What would you two say is the biggest personality difference that you've recognized in your own marriage?
Jolene Rocke: (16:45 - 17:22) We just had a personality test yesterday. We have an executive team leadership at Peoria Rescue Ministries, and we had to do personality tests again. And that always is quite glaring to see how different we are. So, we're on two ends of the spectrum. But we can encourage any marriage that that can work and actually maybe be in your favor as long as you work hard at it. So, it just takes work and communication to say, you're very logical thinking, I'm very emotional, so how do we come together then in situations where I'm flustered and he's calm because he at times looks as if you don't care.
Jon Rocke: (17:22 - 17:53) Right, yeah, it can be that. You're highly relational. I'm definitely more process. And I think you're going to learn quickly, especially if you have kids, that all your kids are going to have different personalities. That's the weirdest thing, right? They all grew up in the same home and they're all just completely different. And so being able to help them understand kind of a little bit who they are and how that works has been a good thing that we're not the same.
Jolene Rocke: (17:53 - 20:01) God didn't make one good and one bad. He made all of us different, all in His image, to His glory. We all bring value to the family, and we both bring value to one another as helpmates because I'm able to sharpen Jon in areas that are blind spots for him. He's able to totally sharpen me and calm me in blind spots that are mine. So, I think in a marriage, it's just actually, it's been helpful. Differences are good.
Laura Dugger: (20:01 - 20:25) Oh, I love that. Differences are good. It sounds like God sanctified even your views of that. And so, getting really practical, when was a time when your differences were working against each other or caused conflict? And then how, through maturing and more time together, how do you celebrate and even lean into and appreciate those differences?
Jolene Rocke: (20:25 - 21:00) Well, one thing for sure is we had what we call our valley, where we learned that Psalm 23 wasn't just a funeral psalm, but it's a life psalm, and it's a way of life psalm. So, at that time, I had three family members pass away, and Jon had his family business go down. So, we watched our personalities within that in handling loss and grief. So, here's the optimist really down, and here's realist trying to be cheerleader and be up.
And so actually God did it, and we know without a doubt that God can work beyond personalities and bring you to a point where you can actually support one another well. But there again, it's got to be intentional. It's got to be me saying, we need to sit down now and have a meeting, talk about how you're feeling, whether you want to talk about feelings or not, because I need to know where you're at so that I can help you best.
Jon Rocke: (20:01 - 21:20) Yeah, and on a practical level during that time, I found myself not communicating some of what I thought was either scary or just the long drag of it. And so that was a potential way for us to disconnect because all of this is swirling from at least our livelihood standpoint, swirling in my head, and I'm not going to want to share that. And yet we realized we had to, but then those are not always easy things because Jolene, like most ladies, likes security as an important thing, right? Of just knowing what's going to happen.
In the end, it did make us really, again, Joe mentioned Psalm 23, and if he is our shepherd, what else could we want? We both had to end up clinging to that because our security was gone. Part of our sense of who we were, and particularly me in a family business for three generations, was gone. And so, we certainly had to make sure that our tendencies, like in communication, those kinds of things, we had to work through those during that time.
Laura Dugger: (21:21 - 21:30) Thank you for sharing that. I think that's very relatable to hear about the ups and the downs. And so, do you have any specific stories of a time when you were both in your strengths, and even though they were very different, they worked well together?
Jolene Rocke: (21:30 - 23:12) Yeah, I think that it's the learning what your strengths are that you may not know that God gives you at the time, and that's his grace. So, at the time, for all those years previous to the valley, Jon was the one that pushed me to communicate, and shutting down was not an option, which is what I wanted to do. So, I'd rather just not talk about it and go to bed. And he would push, push, push me to keep communicating, and that we would work through everything before the sun went down, as the Bible says.
Well, in the valley, it was Jon that was shutting down. And suddenly, you know, I had to be the one to push communication. So, this is something I heard on a sermon. A personality is not an excuse for sin. So that just means that I can't say, well, I'm not comfortable in conflict, so I'm not going to communicate and I'm going to shut down. No, you need to push yourself, ask the Lord for help, and go as his helpmate and say, you have to talk about it, you have to tell me, how are you doing? How are you feeling? So, I feel like it's just, it was such a beautiful valley when we look back now.
Laura Dugger: (23:12 - 23:25) Another previous guest had said she noticed when she was in the valley, that's when you're closest to the living water.
Jon Rocke: (23:13 - 24:41) Oh, absolutely. For sure. That's how creeks run, through valleys. Yeah. And I think our parenting, it was helpful for us to have both sides of our personality in parenting because I think we could address situations with our kids from different viewpoints and different ways to think about things, and those were helpful things as well.
But we also, during all sorts of the periods of time in our marriage, we had some little things that just reminded us. We had little words. So one was, you know, “we need to swim back.” So, you can often find yourself, because of a season of time or a season with your kids or whatever on the different islands, and we would just say, we got to swim back. And so that was one of our things that we did. And then we also had a, if we went too long, we just realized we weren't intentional about our intimacy of any kind. It was just basically, “Hey, you didn't kiss me today.” And we used to make that, “No, you didn't kiss me today.” And it was just a thing we tried to do to make sure that we had these little things that just kept us reminded. And so, they were really, they were kind of practical, just little code words for us that made a difference and got our minds back to where it needed to be.
Jolene Rocke: (24:41 - 24:50) Yeah, and in the busyness, that's easy to remember those little swing thoughts.
Laura Dugger: (24:50 - 30:17) Swim back. And now a brief message from our sponsor.
Did you know you can go to college tuition free just by being a team member at Chick-fil-A East Peoria? Yes, you heard that right. Free college education. All Chick-fil-A East Peoria team members in good standing are immediately eligible for a free college education through Point University. Point University is a fully accredited private Christian college located in West Point, Georgia. This online self-paced program includes 13 associates degrees, 17 bachelor's degrees, and two master's programs, including an MBA. College courses are fully transferable both in and out of this program. This could even be a great option to complete your general education courses and then transfer to the college of your choice and save money in the process. So, if you're looking for an affordable college option while simultaneously gaining valuable work experience and earning an income, Chick-fil-A East Peoria is the place for you. You don't have to go into debt to get a great education. To apply today, please go to https://www.chick-fil-a.com/locations/il/east-peoria and click on the Career tab. You can also call the restaurant at 309-694-1044 to find out more. And if you aren't located near Chick-fil-A East Peoria, make sure you check with your local Chick-fil-A restaurant to see if they also participate in the Elevate program with Point University. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Are you utilizing Savvy Sauce Charities to full capacity? Other than our special Patreon release episodes, our content is now available in video form in addition to our audio only, and we have written transcriptions for every episode. Visit our website today, thesavvysauce.com, to access all these forms of interviews. And while you're there, make sure you sign up for our email list to receive encouragement, questions, and recommended resources about once a month to promote your own practical chats for intentional living.
I also want to remind you about the financial side of Savvy Sauce Charities. As you know, we recently became a non-profit, which means all your financial support is now tax deductible. There are multiple ways to give, and we would be so honored if you would share your financial support with us so that we can continue producing free content that is accessible to the general public. Your money will go to support creatively getting the gospel message of Jesus Christ to the nations as we continue to share the good news on every episode. And I say this is reaching the nations because the Savvy Sauce podcast is downloaded in all 50 United States as well as over 100 countries around the world. Your financial support also supports practical needs such as aiding our team to continue producing helpful content that is practical and uplifting and always pointing to Jesus. Your financial support, furthermore, will help us continue to expand our reach and secure future projects we have planned for this ministry. If your ears are hearing this message right now, I am specifically asking you to give. We are so grateful for any amount, and our team will continue to seek to be good stewards of the gifts offered to us. So, if you want to write a check or set up an ongoing payment with your bank that delivers a check to us each month, this is the most beneficial way to give because no percentages are taken out for processing fees. You can make your check out to Savvy Sauce Charities at P.O. Box 101, Roanoke, Illinois, 61561. Additionally, with our new website, we now have a donate button. There are processing fees that we cover for these donations, but we wanted to offer listeners a seamless way to share their finances with us when we share our content with them. So just visit thesavvysauce.com and find the donate page under the tab support. Another way to find it is simply type in donate to the search bar on our website and just click the first picture shown.
We are all about sharing around here, sharing resources, sharing joy, and sharing the good news about Jesus Christ. We ask that you also will share by sharing financially, sharing the Savvy Sauce podcast episodes, and sharing a five-star rating and review. You can also share any of our social media posts on Instagram or Facebook. We are grateful for all of it and we just love partnering together with you.
Now, back to the show. What encouragement do you have for healthy communication and healthy conflict resolution in marriage?
Jon Rocke: (30:19 - 31:31) God's grace. It's going to have to take time. You have to find that time together. So, I think it's all about prioritizing that time. I don't necessarily like conflict, but I know in our marriage you can't avoid it. And so, we just had to work through it right away. And so, I would say don't let time simmer conflict because that usually never makes it better.
Certainly, there's a sense of if there's something that's really emotional and maybe you need some space. My problem is I often don't give Jolene that space and that's hard on her, it really is, and sometimes not fair. But in the same vein, for me it felt like I didn't care if I just said, “Well, go ahead and be angry or be whatever or be upset about this or just let's not deal with it.” And she was gracious in pressing in and doing that. But I think don't let time go, just deal with it.
Jolene Rocke: (31:32 - 33:26) And two, the encouragement I think of is that Jon and I tell each other everything, every little thing. And we are very aware of couples that don't. And when Jon was holding back for me in that valley time, I really noticed it and I felt pretty alone. So, if you're always telling each other everything, there should be no secrets. So that just means there might be conflict then. If you're going to tell each other everything, then there might be conflict and you need to be prepared for that.
But that's better than me not saying anything. I sometimes say it's like a teapot, you're simmering or you're spouting. What's the perfect in the middle balance? It's really important to not simmer because you will spout eventually and then that's a harder conflict than if you just kept talking, kept telling every little thing. And so, we do tell each other every little thing.
Laura Dugger: (33:26 - 33:40) Well, and to go with that metaphor, if you have a release valve where that hot air can escape, it sounds like your communication has been that where you can get the water temperature back to a healthy place in the relationship.
Jolene Rocke: (33:40 - 33:55) Yeah, yes. And that takes work. So, I mean, honestly, what encouragement? Don't give up. Just keep going because it's worth it.
Laura Dugger: (33:55 - 34:10) Well, and I'm thinking back. Okay, so you had three kids. They're somewhat close together and you were young. So those years when all of your children were in the home, even elementary school age, that timeframe, what did that look like for communication? How did you still make sure you connected every day?
Jon Rocke: (33:26 - 34:31) Well, then throw in, we went to college after we had kids, which was actually, again, just God's grace and gift to us that we were able to leave town, leave the family business for a while, didn't think we were going to be involved in family business, went out to Indiana, went to school, and we didn't have anybody else but ourselves. And so that, again, was just his gift to us as young. We went in 1980, so that was two years after we were married. So, we already had Janelle at that point, and then Jamie came along soon after. And so, I had school but had to work to support. Jolene had to work and she was mom to two little ones. And so, again, I think it was just those times of making sure that we said nothing else can get in the way of us. Again, another phrase that we just had was, you know, we can get through anything together and nothing apart.
Jolene Rocke: (34:32 - 35:21) And that's not a flippant statement for us. That means we're trying and we're going to find the intentional time, put them to bed early, and make sure on weekends we're connecting well. And that meant sometimes driving with our kids. We'd go on drives. But that's Jon and I being able to talk. And then if they're goofing off in the back seat, it's okay. It's just fine because we actually are having talk time. Drive time has always been great communication time for us.
Laura Dugger: (35:21 - 35:35) That's really helpful, I think, for parents in any season. And you're talking about God's grace. So how has grace, and even forgiveness, benefited your relationship?
Jolene Rocke: (35:35 - 35:40) It's everything to our relationship.
Jon Rocke: (35:22 - 37:12) It's the only thing in everything. The parable of the unjust steward in Matthew 18 and just this idea that if you catch the enormity of your sin, then you can forgive others. And so that has been, I think, an important part of what we do because I love that whole story. Peter is asking that question, “How many times do I have to forgive somebody?” And if you think about a marriage context, well, that's a great question because my guess is it's going to be thousands upon thousands of times for whatever little or big things they are. And he's kind of like loading up. I feel that he's getting ready to say, “I've already forgiven this person six times. So, is it seven? And then after that, there's no more?” And the whole point of that is, oh, you really want to keep numbers, Peter? Here's the numbers. You've been forgiven zillions. And so, what's the little trifle amount that you're not going to forgive? And so, I'm thankful that Jolene is gracious because she's had to forgive me and continues to. We're still learning in a new season of life where now we get to work together, which to me is a really great joy. But it's also a different reality where we have a lot of work talk. Well, that's great. And we love that. But that can't dominate everything either. And so that's another one of those things that we have to figure out how to carve out our time away from work. Even though we enjoy working together and it's really fun, it's a new thing. That can't get in the way of us either.
Jolene Rocke: (37:13 - 40:14) There's got to be grace on both parts that now as I look at him as a boss also. And my husband, you know, I need to give a lot of grace to realize he's working within a momentum around a team and a leadership. But then as he comes home, and I'm very fully aware now of what a hat change that means for a man. That means that he's taking off his hat now and becoming my husband at home. And so, it's grace on both sides as he sees me working even under him or with him as a team. But it's a lot of grace and forgiveness over the years because in the early years as you're raising children, there might be unmet expectations is something I wrote down because I feel like as I think back to this pursuer of God and who I married and I remember those early years thinking, well, wow, he's not leading in devotions in the family. And I'm kind of struggling to find, I need to, as the mom then, pick that up and make sure we're doing with the children some family devotions. Well, that can create controversy. It can be that I would be upset, but I needed to forgive him for the fact that he didn't mean to do that and abdicate that responsibility. He just didn't know. And so, there's so much about being graceful as a wife to say, okay, I understand. That wasn't maybe how you were raised, or you didn't see that modeled in the home. But this is what I would desire for our family. And so, you just keep working and you keep forgiving because we've been forgiven so much, as Jon said. So, we know that. And I think the other key thing then with forgiveness becomes no record keeping, just as love is in 1 Corinthians 13. It doesn't keep the record of wrongs. I don't need to sit around with my time and in my brain and think about how much I've forgiven Jon. I need to think about the fact that God's forgiven so much in me, and he has to forgive me all the time. So, you're on this equal footing with forgiveness rather than trying to harbor a record of wrongs.
Laura Dugger: (40:14 - 40:40) Well, and I think you bring up examples for how it works in our families as well with children. And so, it's clear you two have such a solid marriage and you also have a thriving relationship with your adult children and your grandchildren and all their families. So, I think you just have a lot that you could teach us about raising a family as well. What are you so thankful that you did when your kids were living at home that you're now getting to see the payoff as they're adults?
Jon Rocke: (40:16 - 41:43) We literally grew up with our kids. So sorry for our kids that they had to, you know, grow up with their mom and dad. But that's been a lot of fun too because we did a lot of play. Again, these are just little things for us, these little words. So, as the kids were young, we used to, something that bothered them is I would tell them pretty plainly that I love mom most. And so, kids will always try to drive a wedge between mom and dad. That's just part of the fallen nature of kids. And so, we really communicated early. Our kids will tell you that was a hard lesson for them to learn that they didn't quite understand at that age, right? But they've really come to appreciate that in their own marriages. And then the other thing that we said was we choose you second. So, they knew we choose each other first because you're going to be gone someday and mom's not. And so, but we will always choose you second. So, friends were not a higher priority or social or hobby or anything. You know, the kids were always knew they were second. And so our kids are scattered all across, although we have Jamie and Jonathan here, one family here in Morton that we love to live life with. The others are gone, but I think we're still close in a lot of ways from that.
Jolene Rocke: (41:45 - 45:27) Yeah, I think we're a close family because we have stuck together through not just the ups, but the downs, but we're fun loving. Jon and I like games. We like to do stuff, and we like to go places. We prioritized vacation when they were little so that we were all together in an intentional environment that was away from home. And so, we were together, they enjoyed going to Florida every year and it was always what we called just happenstances that were so adverse. It wasn't your ideal. And so, we did not have ideal things happen on any trip, actually, that we go on. So, what we decided to call them is adventures. So, we intentionally took adverse situations, whether that's a flat tire, going to Florida with all the kids and it's the middle of the night and we're all sitting at a gas station on the curb waiting for the next tire to get fixed. It's just, we just always called them adventures and I'm not sorry for that. That's something our kids are passing on to their kids when things happen. Our son in particular, Jordan, his family seems to have a lot of adventures, like Jon and I have had. And that's what they call them to their children. So, I'm not sorry for the word adventure. Jon taught me a saying that he used to say, you love your children, even if you don't like them or you will lose them. And that was really important in the teenage years. When one of our children was struggling in junior high, I knew even if I didn't like the way this one was acting, I needed to just keep loving them as scripture says, right? Not if they're perfect, but all the time. And so, we didn't lose her through that time, I think because there was so much intentional loving beyond the liking. The other thing that I would just mention with that to encourage any, any mom or dad, I picked up the book, The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman and had this daughter read it with me so that we can learn, how do we love each other? Well, through this time when it feels like we don't really like each other that well. So, well, wow. I had no idea. It was physical touch for you. And I, I thought it was the acts of service. And you would notice that I picked up your room because I knew you had a hard day in a test at school. Well, there was never any knowledge or awareness that I did that for her. But whenever I put my arms around her and gave her a giant hug and wouldn't let her go until she melted in my arms, I realized, yes, that's what she, that's how I can love her best.
Laura Dugger: (45:27 - 45:50) That is awesome to hear that story. It is helpful to have actionable things that we can replicate. And so, I am going to link in the show notes to a few of our episodes that may be beneficial. If people want to take that concept a step further, Dr. Gary Chapman has been a previous guest. I'll link to those. And then also Katie Mueller talked about traveling with your family and the lessons that the Lord teaches his children about traveling in the Bible and how that applies to us. That's great. So, if you're willing, will you share anything more about the honeymoon? I'm so curious now.
Jon Rocke: (45:27 - 46:35) We will. I feel like we're taking too much time here.
Jolene Rocke: (46:35 - 46:36) I don't know, but well, we knew that this was setting the tone for marriage as far as adventures.
Jon Rocke: (46:36 - 46:37) But well, the very first off we, we got on a plane. So, we got married on a Sunday and we were flying out down to Florida on Sunday night. We got to Atlanta where we were supposed to connect to another plane. We were supposed to go to Fort Myers, Florida and there had been a storm and, and they were rushing to get us on the right flights or to get us to the next flight. And they put us on the wrong plane. You know, this was back in the day where that could happen. Couldn't happen today, but put us on the wrong plane. We ended up in Melbourne, Florida at midnight last flight of the night. You know, we're newlyweds. We're supposed to be, you know, on our honeymoon. They put us up at a Holiday Inn Express with the crew and said, you know, we'll get you out a flight. You have to be up at 4 a.m. And so, you know, I was, our first night was not necessarily what you would, you know, call the most romantic night that we could have. And then do you want to tell the second story of our honeymoon?
Jolene Rocke: (46:36 - 46:37) The canoe trip.
Jon Rocke: (46:37 - 46:37) Yeah.
Jolene Rocke: (46:37 - 47:28) The canoe trip is, I have such bad allergies to many things. And so, Jon knew that because we tried to go horseback riding and I thought I'd be okay because it was outdoors, but the dander on the horse made me just blow up into a big ball on my face. And so, he realized how much I have a problem with allergies, but we decided to go canoeing in a very narrow mangrove swamp. That was really depleted in, in its depth that day. And so, we were canoeing along, but we, we got into the side of the mangrove trees and out came a Hornets, Hornets out of this giant nest and stung me all over my back.
Jon Rocke: (47:28 - 47:50) And so Jon went into, I'm like thinking that my six day, you know, marriage is over. My wife, who's so allergic, we're half hour out on our journey and I'm, she's like going to die on the spot. Cause I figured if she's so allergic to animals, then this many, you know, bee stings or wasp stings, she's, you know, she's dead.
Jolene Rocke: (47:52 - 48:12) So he jumps, jumps out. Yeah. First, the truth is he took my top off and started taking mud from the bottom of the creek and, just plasters me with mud on my back. And then he jumps out of the canoe and starts running the, the canoe. Cause it was pretty shallow.
Jon Rocke: (48:12 - 48:31) I decided it was going to be quicker to get her back in time. I figured I had about 30 minutes, you know, to, to try to get her to some medical attention. And so, yeah, so I'm running the canoe back instead of paddling it. Cause I knew I could get faster. Well, then I cut my foot on a shoal and we're a mess.
Jolene Rocke: (48:31 - 48:37) I mean, he had it. What? Like six-inch stitches. So, we ended up in the ER here.
Jon Rocke: (48:37 - 48:38) Yeah.
Jolene Rocke: (48:38 - 48:52) Both of us with me, with stings, Jon, with a cut. And, and that was just the start of the honeymoon that we called a giant adventure adventure since it wasn't great.
Jon Rocke: (48:52 - 48:55) It's been a 44-year adventure.
Laura Dugger: (48:55 - 49:15) You did start with quite the adventure. I love that. And I think the husbands’ listening will appreciate, of course you took their top off first.
Jon Rocke: (49:03 - 49:04) That's right.
Jolene Rocke: (49:05 - 49:07) It was a little embarrassing.
Jon Rocke: (49:08 - 49:10) It was a good thing. Nobody else.
Jolene Rocke: (49:10 - 49:15) Nobody else.
Laura Dugger: (49:15 - 49:25) Sorry. I had to tease on that part, but through various seasons, how did you prioritize one another above your kids, your career and your own families of origin?
Jon Rocke: (49:25 - 50:35) We just knew we had to have time. So, a couple of things. I mean, we had a fortunate built in mechanism too, to take trips together. So, within our family business, we had conferences and such that we had to attend. And so, we made that a priority that we were going to do those together. I wasn't going to just go by myself. And so, a couple of times a year, and now that we're working together, it can feel like life blurs between everything. So, while we're at home, we're still talking about work and we're still dealing with ministry. And the other thing is with our kids away, a lot of our trip time is spent with our kids. So, we have to make that, that's gotta be a priority, but we realized we still need just our time away. and when we got, we went down to Florida and we just said, okay, no work talk for these five days, you know, no work talk. And it was pretty fun because most of the time Jolene broke that rule. And I would say, wait a minute, no work talk.
Jolene Rocke: (50:36 - 50:36) It's true.
Jon Rocke: (50:37 - 51:09) It's very true. But those, so trips were a big thing for us, and they don't have to be a big deal trip, but a weekend away to break the routine. You know, the example of that was, that's why God created festivals and holidays were to break routine and to have a stop in our everyday lives. And so, he knew we needed that to reconnect with him. Well, we know we need that in our marriages is to break the routine.
Jolene Rocke: (51:10 - 52:17) Very intentionally. Jon was wise enough to know we needed that as even as young as he was. Can you imagine the volumes of love that that spoke to me, that he wanted me to go with him on the trips. So that meant so much to me. And it still does today because he always wants me to go with him. And then I, I just have over the years, like when the kids were at home, that was days of rest for me when he was in meetings. But as I started growing too, as a person and not needing as much rest, I also would go into all the meetings because I liked the learning. But even as we went through college, like I just was always a part of the learning. And, and I liked that, but Jon included me. That said a lot to me.
Laura Dugger: (52:18 - 52:25) And I love your companionship, how you prioritize that. What advice do you have for all of us married couples as we seek to grow as one rather than start to grow parallel or even worse, start to grow apart from one another?
Jon Rocke: (52:18 - 52:47) Yeah, I think find things to do together. That's part of how even the biking, the tandem thing came about. Cause if we went out on bikes on our individual bikes, then I'm like, I'm wanting to run ahead. Well, you know, and then, and she's like, you know, you're not getting very much exercise or whatever the case may be. But then on a tandem, we could accomplish everything together. And so, finding some of those things.
Jolene Rocke: (52:47 - 54:56) So there's seasons of time when you're raising your children, like that, Jon was biking by himself and with some other men in a fast pace for extreme exercise. And I was doing my thing. And so, I'm not saying that hobbies apart from one another are negative, but for us, they've been mostly together. And so that just means that even there was a period that yes, Jon would go out golfing, not in excess, but when our kids were around and little, I think I was communicating even in that, that you don't just go off golfing every Saturday and leave your wife with the kids on a Saturday because you now that's your day off work. No, it's, we never get a day off work. So, you need to kick in at home too. So, there was this balance, I think is a really good word for how do you, how do you do like even individual hobbies and exercise even, but then mostly we're always trying to figure out how we can do things together. So, taking a back seat, literally on a tandem bike and knowing that that was going to help our marriage to be together. I also said recently now in a decade ago, I will learn how to golf. And so that, that just meant, again, I have no, no interest that much in golfing. I thought I loved riding the car around and being outside, but now it's like, yes, I will learn to golf if that means that that's another hobby and a sport and an activity that we can do together. So, we started a Friday night golf time, just Jon and I, it's a date night of golf and Dairy Queen supper. We call it Dairy Queen supper because we just don't eat supper, but we eat Dairy Queen after we go. So there again, there's just like, what are, what can we do together? And we're still doing date nights because it's just, we actually are really good friends still.
Jon Rocke: (54:57 - 55:51) Well, I think like I say, every season has been different for us. There was a time where kids were intense and Joe was a phenomenal mom and, was totally engaged in that. And you're in your career phase too. And so, all those things are competing. Well, then we've come back in the last five years and now we work together. So that's a different whole different dynamic. And so that's why we needed, you know, yeah, we need a golf and Dairy Queen night because we just need to get away from the intensity of our work relationship, you know, and take that break on our tandems. We usually ride for breakfast. So, most things have to do with food. It's not about exercise. It's about how to eat. So that's kind of just part of what we do.
Laura Dugger: (55:51 - 56:19) I love it though. That's an interest for all people. It's something that we have to do multiple times a day. Well, what do you want to leave us with? Whether it's a challenge or scripture, it can be anything, but how would you like to wind down our time together today?
Jolene Rocke: (56:19 - 56:30) I'm going to just say to encourage everyone. Our marriage has taken compromise and it's taken communication and it pays off in the end.
Jon Rocke: (56:19 - 57:11) You know, Ephesians 5 is really an important understanding that it's submitting to each other. The idea of wives submit to your husband, you're not catching the whole picture of that. If that's what your focus is, because it's husband loves you, love your wives as Christ loved the church. And so, and it starts the whole section off with submit to one another. And so, we have to be just intentional and committed. One of my favorite sayings is from Augustine, who says, when he was in prayer one time says to God, “Command what you will, but give what you command.” And so, when I think about our marriage, that's what grace is all about. Yes, it takes intentionality and commitment, but that only comes by his grace.
Jolene Rocke: (57:11 - 57:55) And one other thing that I thought of is that we always taught our kids to remember whose they are. And that just means that if you do that within a marriage too, and you're remembering that you're the Lord's, you're made in his image, then you relate and you will love the other one better. Even as you know your identity in Christ first, you will love your mate better.
Laura Dugger: (57:55 - 58:05) Amen. And you too may know we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for both of you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Jon Rocke: (57:56 - 58:07) You know, I just say submission is a good thing. It's not associated that way, but in a marriage it's such a good thing.
Jolene Rocke: (58:08 - 59:13) So that's both submitting to each other, not just the wife being clamped down. But our savvy sauce would be that sacrifice and submission are good things. They're not bad words. So, in our experience, a savvy sauce for our 44-year-old marriage is that sacrifice and submission have been very good things on both of our parts.
Laura Dugger: (59:13 - 59:20) Well, you clearly live this out, and you've been great role models to Mark and to me and our family. You love one another with such an intensity, and you love your Lord that way, and you love your children that way in your community. And I just see the way that He's had this ripple out from being intentional in the most key important parts of life, and that He's really blessed you in that, but He's also blessed all of us around you. So, thank you for sharing your journey with us. Thank you so much for being my guest.
Jolene Rocke: (59:20 - 59:22) It's been so great to be here with you. Thanks for asking, Laura.
Jon Rocke: (59:13 - 59:27) Yeah, it's been a privilege for us just to take the time to reflect again and realize the challenges, but really just celebrate what God has done through His grace in us and our marriage. So, thanks.
Laura Dugger: (59:27 - 1:03:10) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.
This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.
Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.
Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.
First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.
You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.