The Savvy Sauce

Discerning What to Do Next with Katie Reid (Episode 278)

"So above all, guard the affections of your heart, for they affect all that you are. Pay attention to the welfare of your innermost being, for from there flows the wellspring of life.” Proverbs 4:23 TPT

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Sue Neihouser Team

 

Katie M. Reid is an author, speaker, podcast host, and songwriter who inspires others to live out their purpose with tenacity, wisdom and grace at katiemreid.com. She is the author of Made Like Martha: Good News for the Woman Who Gets Things Done, A Very Bavarian Christmas novel (which is becoming a movie) and the co-creator of The Digital Peace Pact and the Check Your Selfie Story-Coloring Book. Katie is also the co-host of The Martha + Mary Show podcast. As the Inspiration Doula, Katie coaches creatives, helping them bring life to their projects. Her album, Echoes of My Heart, the Daughter song, and The Very Bavarian Christmas musical soundtrack can be accessed here and on other music streaming platforms. Katie delights in her husband and five children. Musicals, iced tea, and cut-to-the-chase conversations are a few of her favorite things.

 

Questions and Topics Discussed:

1. As a woman who excels in getting things done, what tips can you share as it relates to getting things done around our home?

2. What are some of the changes you've made to your lifestyle that have led to the greatest results?

3. What habits and rhythms do you have in place to support your personal development and spiritual growth?

 

Other Episodes Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce During Episode:

183 Leading Your Family, Marriage, and Self with Justin Maust

Patreon 47: Business, Leadership, and Legacy with Justin Maust 

 

Other Episode Mentioned During Episode:

Mary & Martha Show: Benefits of Chiropractic Care with Dr. Lianne Coombe

 

Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce:

81 Sacred Rest with Doctor, Author, and Speaker, Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith

150 Brain Science and Spiritual Abundance with Ken Baugh

256 Gut Health, Allergies, Inflammation and Proactive Solutions with Emily Macleod-Wolfe

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:09)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:29) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

Thank you to the Sue Neihouser Team for sponsoring this episode.

 

If you're looking to buy or sell a home this season, make sure you reach out to Sue at 309-229-8831. Sue would love to walk alongside you as you unlock new doors.

 

Welcome to the final episode of The Savvy Sauce for 2025. We look so forward to meeting you back here after today's episode on Monday, January 5th.

 

But for today, my guest is Katie Reid. She is wildly creative and also completely grounded in her faith.

 

She's an author, speaker, former podcaster, and coach for creatives. She's going to share on a variety of topics today, ranging from health to discerning God's leading for what's next in each of our lives. Here's our chat.

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Katie.

 

Katie Reid: (1:30 - 1:33) Thank you so much for having me, Laura. This is such a treat.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:33 - 1:45) Oh, it's a delight to get a chat with you. And I want to go back. I want to hear the origins of your writing and podcasting journey and how it's led to the work that you get to do today.

 

Katie Reid: (1:46 - 3:00) Well, in about 2014, I had a bucket list. And on that bucket list, there were things like make a quilt and sing the national anthem in a professional sporting event and bake an apple pie and writing a book was on it. And so, Laura, I've always been a very driven and purposeful person.

 

So, it felt like it was the time to write a book. And I had no idea how hard it was going to be and that it would accidentally turn into a career that I forgot to ask my husband if I could start. But it was when I started writing and I had been writing, you know, just as a kid here and there.

 

But it turned into what I did as a career. And it was not necessarily easy. But God has refined me through the process.

 

And so, my first book Made Like Martha came out in 2018. And then I have dabbled in fiction books as well. And then I have a Bible study that is out now.

 

God, What Do I Do? based on Judges one through five. So, I kind of write a little bit of everything. And it's been a wild and wonderful journey.

 

Laura Dugger: (3:01 - 3:07) Wild and wonderful for sure. Going back to that bucket list, have the other ones also become realities as well?

 

Katie Reid: (3:08 - 3:28) You know, I have sang the national anthem at some not  professional sporting events, but, you know, high school events and that kind of thing at my college. I have made an apple pie. My mom is a quilter and I just decided she can do that.

 

I kind of removed that off the list. But now I can check off, write a book.

 

Laura Dugger: (3:28 - 3:53) That's incredible, which is a huge undertaking. So, thank you for your labor of love. And even going back, I love how you've identified that you kind of relate more to the Martha personality rather than the Mary personality.

 

So, can you define what that means and share some of the benefits and the drawbacks of each personality leaning?

 

Katie Reid: (3:54 - 6:41) Sure. So, in the Bible, in Luke 10:38-42, we meet two sisters, Martha and Mary, and they had a brother, Lazarus, as well, and they were friends of Jesus. And Martha it seems like your firstborn type A, you know, to do list kind of gal.

 

And Mary was like a disciple of Jesus sitting at his feet, maybe more relationally driven. And so, when I read this story that has, you know, Martha gets a lot of flack because a lot of people like, “Oh, we need to all be like Mary.” And so, this story, I always wanted it to go differently.

 

Martha goes to Jesus. She's worried and distracted by all her preparations. She's housing or hosting Jesus and his disciples at her home.

 

And Mary's sitting there listening to Jesus teaching. And so, Martha goes to Jesus and says in the Katy paraphrase, “Hey, Jesus, I'm here doing this all by myself. Tell Mary to get off her duff and help me.”

 

And I so, Laura, wanted Jesus to say, “Martha, you are right. Mary, get in there and help your sister.” But that's not what he did.

 

And so, I want to take a closer look at the story and see what did God really say? Because I think over time, we've probably read books or heard different sermons that paints Martha in a certain light. And I wanted to see for myself, you know, have we added things to this that aren't really there?

 

And what I discovered is, you know, Jesus made us. We know this from Psalm 139 on purpose and for a purpose and intricately. And so, it was no mistake that Martha was made to do and to get things done.

 

But she got a little out of whack kind of with her heart posture, as I say, you know, kind of trying to strive and earn versus working from a place of love. She was working for love and she already had that love right there in Jesus in her home. And so, that's what Made Like Martha is about.

 

But I see how, you know, a lot of us are a blend of both of these women, you know, task oriented, relational oriented. But I think we lean more one way or the other. But the world needs all kinds of people in it.

 

And so, I think sometimes we view it as a competition when actually it's just different. But we can never go wrong with sitting at Jesus's feet. But also, we can be at peace and settled on the inside in our relationship with the Lord, even when our hands are busy.

 

Because if we just all sit, things will not get done. And, you know, we are both busy moms, Laura. And, you know, there's just there's a to do list every day, isn't there?

 

Laura Dugger: (6:41 - 7:00) There is. But you are someone who really does excel at getting those things done. Like you said, it's in your wiring from the Lord.

 

So, what tips can you share with all of us? And maybe starting with how does that specifically look for getting things done around our home?

 

Katie Reid: (7:01 - 8:47) Yes, I think there's a resource I have on my website that we can share in the show notes, and it's called the “All Done Calendar.” And I don't know about you, Laura, but my to do list can have like 25 things on it, which is just very unrealistic. Right.

 

I am not going to get 25 things done in a day. And so, I created this all done calendar and it's a blank calendar. It's got some pretty designs on it.

 

And what you do is you write down a few things each day that you actually got done. And cleaning half of the bathroom can totally count. You don't even have to do the whole thing.

But it's a way to celebrate what you've already done instead of just being fixated on all there's left to do. And so, that's something that helps me is to be like, OK, I did not get the 25 things done. But what with the Lord's help did I get done?

 

And sometimes I might have had these really lofty goals, but maybe instead I had a meaningful conversation with my team. Or maybe instead I left the dishes and sat down and watched a movie with my family and likely fell asleep 10 minutes in because I sat down. But I think we can just feel, especially in this Pinterest world and comparison with social media, we can feel like we're behind all the time.

 

And so, this all done calendar is just a really practical way to just look back over the month and be like, look what I did do. And sure, there could be lots of things left, but it's a way to just remind ourselves of what we have in that gratitude. I call it a lavish list instead of a lack list.

 

You know, instead of counting all the things you don't have, give thanks for all the things you do.

 

Laura Dugger: (8:48 - 9:05) Wow. And that gratitude really does change everything when our mindset is changed. Do you have any other tips that you use then for meal planning or logistics?

 

Because you can introduce us to your family as well. You've got quite a few kids with your husband.

 

Katie Reid: (9:05 - 11:47) We do. We have five kids. The oldest is almost 21. She's a girl. Our youngest is a girl also, and she's almost nine. And then we have three boys in the middle, 18, 16, and 12.

 

And so, we are a lively and a loud family. I think for me with meal planning, I actually do enjoy cooking and my daughter had a lot of culinary training. So, I know some women are just like, it happens every day and I don't like it.

 

But what I often do with our busy schedule is on Saturday or maybe Sunday afternoon, I like to cook things in bulk. So, maybe I'll make a soup and some taco meat and put pulled pork in the crock pot so that we can kind of eat off that. And during the week, I kind of batch cook.

 

So, I don't feel like I'm doing it all the time. And we also from a young age have equipped our kids to make their food. I remember we had someone stay with us, Laura, and they were like almost appalled.

 

They're like, “I mean, these young kids just got up and made their own food. Where was the mom?” And my husband said, “That's actually what we've trained them to do.”

 

I mean, they were getting like cereal. The other day, the baby of the family is almost nine and we do probably too much for her as one tends to do with their youngest child. And so, I equipped her and empowered her.

 

I said, “You know, Lark, you can make your own eggs.” And so, sure enough, she got a stool. I just reminded her to spray the pan and turn off the oven.

 

And she made herself, you know, eggs with bacon bits in it. And you can see that sense of pride. She was a little hesitant at first.

 

But I believe in working smarter, not harder. And so, we do divvy up, you know, chores around the house. In fact, I dare not say this too loudly.

 

But when I started writing, my husband said to our kids who were quite a lot younger at the time, “Guess what? Mom's not doing the dishes anymore. So, you guys are each going to have a night or two. And you're going to do those because we want her to be faithful to what God has also asked her to do. And you guys need to learn how to do this.” And so, Laura, when they first started loading the dishwasher, I had to fold my hands because they were not doing it in the way I would have envisioned.

 

But it was still getting it done. So, I have this little mantra. If someone else can do it with at least 75 percent, you know, effectiveness, then that should be good enough.

 

Because I think sometimes as women, we kind of want it my way or the highway. But then we wear ourselves out because we're trying to control or manage everything. And sometimes 75 percent is good enough.

 

Laura Dugger: (11:48 - 12:21) Katie, you sound like a wonderful mother. I think that's such a gift to your kids. Their studies show doing chores and being more self-sufficient, being trained that way is beneficial to them across the board.

 

So, I applaud you. Well done. But another one of your sweet spots that you seem to get after is healthy living.

 

And so, I'd love to know, what are some of your most beneficial lifestyle changes that you've implemented in your family? And now they've led to the greatest results.

 

Katie Reid: (12:22 - 15:12) Yeah, so, one of the things we do as a family is we go to the chiropractor. And I know that some people have mixed feelings about that, but we love our chiropractor. And, you know, I'll probably get the statistics, you know, not quite right.

I'm a creative brain versus a very logical brain. But I do know there are many health benefits to chiropractic care. It boosts your immune system.

 

I can for me personally, some of the benefits is I used to get vertigo sometimes, which is a terrible thing if you've never had it, where the room is like spinning and I'd have to just lay in bed, which is not a great thing, you know, for our busy lifestyle. And so, I have less vertigo. I can move my head back and forth freely and lots of other things.

 

But one thing that was interesting, and we did interview my chiropractor on the Martha & Mary Show on the podcast, is there's so many things that can be benefits to it. And at my age, I'm almost 48. I can see 50 from a distance.

 

And my friends and I, Laura, are talking about our bodies so much. We are now like our moms would do. And even going to the bathroom more regularly can be a benefit of chiropractic care or, you know, your cramps not being as bad, all that.

 

So, that's one of the things we have done. This year, we are trying to walk a lot more. So, my husband and I and our two youngest children, we have this little half hour route that we do.

And we were even doing it in the middle of winter. And then as things have gotten busier, that's fallen a little bit by the wayside, but just fresh air. We have some great conversations.

 

And the other thing, too, is I don't know if you're like this, Laura, but during COVID, we put on a lot of weight and we didn't realize it. We could see it in other people, but we went to the doctor and I was shocked by what I weighed. And I went to a naturopath and I just said, “Can you help me?”

 

And so, I thought I was taking good care of myself, Laura. But looking back, I surely was not. And a lot of it was what I was eating.

 

I was not drinking enough water. So, anyway, that helped to just the education of that our food has such an impact. And so, really it you know, we are not like health freaks by any means, but trying to have more vegetables, some healthy options.

 

I had no idea what a big deal protein was. I just didn't know, you know, as kids who ate SpaghettiOs and, you know, mac and cheese growing up in the 80s. There just wasn't as much out there about, you know, that connection with what you're putting in your body and how you're feeling.

 

Laura Dugger: (15:13 - 18:23) That's such a good point. I love hearing these habits and I very much enjoyed that episode that you did with your chiropractor. We'll have to link to that as well in the show notes.

 

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Katie, you're such a go-getter and in the midst of homeschooling and writing this book, you also still pursue personal development and spiritual growth. So, do you have any systems or rhythms in place to support that growth?

 

Katie Reid: (18:24 - 21:43) Yeah, I think a couple of them. I often want to talk to people, talk about the Mary and Martha event. Some people are that way with Bible study and prayer. There are some who just love to study the Bible. There’re others who lead with prayer. I've been the Bible study girl. I love to study, you know, as a teacher. Maybe that's just my thing. But prayer was something that I felt like I was always getting like a D minus in. And it's not that I never would, Laura, but, you know, I just have a friend, Lee, who co-hosts The Martha & Mary Show with me, and she is a prayer, a pray-er. And so, one of the things I did was I know accountability is key in developing healthy practices, whether that's physically or spiritually or emotionally.

 

And so, we started a mom's prayer group at our church that meets most Fridays throughout the year because I knew, I mean, surely I wasn't going to just pray on Fridays. But I knew if I had that group and I was helping lead it and show up that that would be a discipline that would get into my life. And it really has, but it just felt very daunting.

 

Another tip my friend gave me just with incorporating more prayer is to have like a trigger. So, every time you open a door to pray or every time you interact with water, let it serve as a reminder to pray. And again, I just need that kind of accountability in my life. I can get distracted easily.

 

And so, that was just another thing that helped me to just have that in the forefront of my mind. And I also feel like having teen and young adult children, you will just start praying much more naturally because you realize that your influence is shifting. You're more of a coach and a support than you are kind of that direct supervisor. And so, God gave me this phrase of like, "Prayer is the way sometimes we got to parenting, but prayer is also what we need to get through parenting."

 

And so, I have been doing much more prayer lately, but I just encourage the listeners, whether it's Bible study or prayer, which are essential to our spiritual growth, grab a friend and ask them, you know, you could text each other in the mornings, like, "Hey, I'm praying for you about this. Or will you pray about this?" But it is when we link arms, we have more effectiveness, I think, because we're not just trying to do it on our own. And I feel like in our culture, especially with all the pressures of, you know, social media and all of that, we try to be all things to our family, like, you know, grow organic vegetables and sew our kids' clothes and homeschool and you fill in the blank. But yet it's so much more accessible done in community. For example, I love batch cooking. So, maybe I could make an extra lasagna for someone and then I don't love to fold laundry, but maybe my friend comes over and we fold laundry together. I just think we can be so isolated. And we're missing out on sharing our strengths with others and them with us. And I just think family life is best done in community, if at all possible.

 

Laura Dugger: (21:44 - 22:15) That's so wise and so practical. I love that. Even the tip of when you interact with water to pray. That's really helpful. And speaking of spiritual growth, I do want to highlight some parts of your amazing book, which, as you said, it's entitled, God, What Do I Do? So, I want to just dive into a couple of the sections, beginning with, "God, what do I do with what you've given me?" So, Katie, can you just expound on that topic?

 

Katie Reid: (22:15 - 23:38) Yeah, for sure. So, we've all been given time, talents, treasures. You've probably heard those three Ts before. And at the end of my life, Laura, I want to be able to stand before the Lord and by His grace say that I was a faithful steward with what He has entrusted me. And I think we often are told, particularly as women, to keep everything in balance. And I don't know about you, Laura, but that just feels like pressure to me. Like, surely I'm going to drop one of these plates I'm spinning.

And so, I like to think about it as being a faithful steward with what's right in front of me, because that feels more manageable. And yes, we still need the Lord's help to do that. But right now, we're doing this interview. So, I want to be a faithful steward of that. And then next, I'm going to go hang out with my college roommates and we're going to have a little reunion. And I want to be faithful with that. But I think we can get really overwhelmed when we're just trying to do everything perfectly. And in the study, we talk about faithfully stewarding the people, position, and place that God has put you in or that's before you. And I think that happens one decision at a time. And again, it feels more manageable when we think about it like that.

 

Laura Dugger: (23:39 - 23:48) I love that. I even love the questions that you ask about those specifics. Do you want to share those three questions?

 

Katie Reid: (23:49 - 26:27) Yeah. So, we talk about, you know, what people have you been entrusted with? What position have you been entrusted with? And what place have you been entrusted with? And I think that helps us recognize our purpose as well, like in the current season that we're in. But going back to the time, talents and treasures, you know, time, I feel like right now is such a precious commodity. And we talk about, you know, at church, like tithing your finances. But the idea I've heard people explain, what does it look like to tithe your time?

 

And I can cram so many things into the day that my husband and I are walking through this process of me having more margin in my life, more white space. And that's a part of stewarding our time. It doesn't mean we have to burn out and just run ragged. You know, we see this pattern in Jesus' life. He would minister and then He would retreat and recharge and then He'd minister. And I think there's some unhealth that we see in our culture and even in my own home with sometimes of just the unrealistic expectations I have.

 

And life happens. We could have a perfectly executed plan. But then this is a true story. The dog ate chocolate and we have to run for an emergency vet visit. Or I don't know about you, Laura, but you know, sometimes my kids want to have deep conversations at a time that is very inconvenient. But we want to take advantage of those times and take that opportunity.

 

And so, just going before the Lord and saying, "God, you have given me time. You've given me talents. You've given me treasures. And I want to faithfully steward them. Show me how to move forward in a way that honors you." And I think we have to be careful sometimes. I think we need to put some blinders on because what you are called to might be totally different than what your sister is called to or what I'm called to. And that we need to listen and have the abiding relationship with the Lord because we need to faithfully steward what He's asked us to do, not what He's asked someone else to do. And so, I love that word, too. What God has "entrusted" to us, again, could look a lot of different ways. But He doesn't require perfection. That's why Jesus came, because we couldn't do it. And He's with us in it. And we want to move forward with Him as we manage the people and the place and the position that He's entrusted to us.

 

Laura Dugger: (26:27 - 27:14) Oh, that's so good. And just to dig a little deeper then, too, I feel like I'm in a similar place where I sense the Lord asking me this week, asking me to ask Him, "What pace do you want me to be living at? What pace is healthy and sustainable? And what changes do I need to make?" So, I feel like I'm just on the beginning of this journey. But if you and your husband have already been diving in to margin, which is a word that I feel like I could answer with, and maybe slowing down a little bit, how do you do that? You're a creative as well, and you've got all these ideas and these good things that you want to go after. Do you have any practical parameters or pieces of discernment in place to know how to create margin as well?

 

Katie Reid: (27:15 - 29:12) Yeah, I think one thing that I am still learning is that “yes" has a cost to it, right? Now, of course, if Jesus asked us to do something, we want to say yes, regardless of the cost. But let's say someone asked me if I would write an article for a website and I'm launching these books. That sounds like a great idea. But Laura, sometimes I forget what that yes will mean. That's going to be at least three hours of time. And so, to almost look at the ask and associate them with time. And so, while that's a great thing, I also have kids that are in sports right now, and I don't want to miss those sports. Or could I use an article I've used before? Do they want original content? And so, I think with our yes’ and no’s, just thinking about, again, unless it's an obedience thing where the Lord has just made it so clear.

 

The other thing my husband often says to me is, "OK, Katie, that is a great opportunity. But what is going to come off of your plate to make room for that?" Where I can just keep heaping it on and it's spilling on a potluck when you overfill your plate and it's all spilling out and just making a mess. And so, that's another thing of like, "OK, what will come off?" I also run things by my husband or a close friend to say I have this opportunity for this. "What do you think?" Because sometimes we have those blind spots where we can't see what that might mean in the future. So, kind of a board of advisors, if you will, people who know you well know your personality. And just because it's a good idea doesn't mean it's a bad idea. And that can be so hard, especially if we're good at something. Sometimes we think it's an automatic yes, but we have to evaluate the season that we are in as well.

 

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The word discernment comes to mind with your book. It's a lot of discernment, a lot of these questions as we're turning to God. So, can you share any of the parts of the section that you wrote about, "God, What Do I Do Next?"

 

Katie Reid: (30:27 - 34:11) Absolutely. You know, I'm a pretty decisive person, but I know a lot of people are not, and they can be overwhelmed. I mean, even at the grocery store, if we're trying to pick out cereal or Band-Aids even, there are so many options that it can just become overwhelming. We're inundated by information. And so, I think when we are not sure what to do next, there are things we actually can decide, even if we don't specifically know what to do about a situation. And that's a lot of what is found in God, What Do I Do?.

 

And we follow the Israelites as they're entering the Promised Land. They made some not great choices sometimes, and they made some good choices sometimes. But the idea of their leader had died and they needed to know what to do next. And one of the first things they do, we see in Judges 1:1, is they inquire of the Lord. They go to the Lord and ask Him what they're supposed to do. And Laura, we can never go wrong doing that.

 

I have a dear friend who told me one time, "Katie, I don't like praying out loud because I just have really simple prayers. They are not eloquent." And I reassured her, you know what? SOS prayers totally count. So, if you find yourself in a situation where you do not know what to do next: "Lord, help me. Lord, I need you." You cannot go wrong praying those prayers. And there's actually, the Bible study goes through six decisions we can make, even if we don't know specifically what to do. And the first one in the introductory lesson is the decision to remember.

The more kids I've had and the older I've gotten, I get a little more forgetful. I used to be so good at Memory, that game. And now it's like, I don't know, I'm going to pick the same ones every time. We can be forgetful. But when we recount God's faithfulness in the Bible and also what He's done in our own lives, it can help us make more clear-headed decisions. We have this little box in our home that we decorated back in the scrapbooking days. And inside it, we have a couple pictures and objects that remind us of things God has done for us in the past. One of the things He had asked us to do when we did not have much money, we were getting ready to move across the country and we had two vehicles. And we could have really used the money from the vehicle, one of our vehicles, but the Lord put on both my heart and my husband's heart to give away a vehicle.

 

And so many people, even Christian believers close to us, Laura, were like, "I don't know, that doesn't seem very wise." But we knew God's voice. We knew what He was asking and it was such a blessing in it. And so, we have a picture of that car, and we have that in the box. And so, I have not done a great job of pulling the box out a lot, especially with our younger kids. But it's just kind of those memorial stones of "Remember how God did this."

 

I remember one time we were having car difficulties, and I told the family, I said, "You know, wouldn't it be great if someone at church just handed us an envelope with the money we need to repair this vehicle?" And my kids kind of rolled their eyes. "Oh, there's mom and her big faith again." And Laura, wouldn't you know it, someone came up to my husband and said, "We just want to gift you this." And it was like $200 and it was exactly what we needed. And so, it's like stories like that to remember God has been faithful in the past. He will continue to be faithful, even if I don't know specifically what to do about a situation. He will be with me in it.

 

Laura Dugger: (34:12 - 34:42) Wow, that is incredible. And those spiritual markers build confidence and faith in us with our own journey. But like you said, passing them along to the next generation, that is huge and sharing these stories of God's faithfulness. And this is just such a small sample of your book, because I just want to make sure we highlight one other piece, but you share this insight about one part of the question, "God, what do I do to encourage those around me?"

 

Katie Reid: (34:43 - 36:25) Yes. So, we look in Judges 4, we met a judge Deborah and there was a military commander named Barak. And so, Deborah was a prophetess and judge, and she goes to Barak and reminds him of what God has already told him. Isn't that a good friend? And she said, "Hey, hasn't God said," and then reminds him. And you know what I love about this is we see this collaboration for the Kingdom.

 

And maybe it's more of an exhortation than an encouragement. But then later on in Judges 5, there's the song that Deborah and Barak sing. And part of the song is they are calling out those that helped them in battle. And, you know, it's an encouragement. They also call out those who didn't help in a different kind of call out way. But sometimes it bolsters our faith.

 

If someone else speaks into our life and says, "I see this in you." And a lot of times we think that encouragement, but we don't give voice to it. And I can look back over my life when people have taken the time to encourage me. It's like we cling to those words to keep going. Something we do at our church is the last Sunday of the month we have testimony time. And it is so encouraging to hear what God is doing in other people's lives. And in our own struggles, it can really bolster our faith to keep holding on and to celebrate what He's doing in them. So, I think giving credit to God for what He's done in testimony can really help encourage those around us as well.

 

Laura Dugger: (36:26 - 37:12) Wow, that is awesome. I love that you do that at your church. Such a practical way to live out so much of the Bible that talks about sharing His story, sharing His faithfulness, and that we overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb, which is already taken care of, and the word of our testimony. That's so powerful. And Katie, you're just fascinating and multifaceted. And there's a piece of your bio that I just love. You say that you're an "Inspiration Doula". So, I want to hear some of your favorite ways, whether it's questions or stories or bits of wisdom, to share so that you can encourage creatives, which is hopefully all of us because we're created in our Creator God's image.

 

Katie Reid: (37:14 - 40:11) You know, Laura, I love to see what God, how He has wired different people and encouraged them to share that gift with the world. I love holding the ladder for people so they can climb higher and do more. And sometimes I think on this crazy journey of podcasting and writing and speaking, sometimes I get the sense that God is allowing me to walk through these doors so that I can turn around and help someone else do it but even go further and do more than I have.

 

Nothing brings me more joy than seeing someone using their giftings. For example, we had a writing retreat recently that really turned into a spiritual renewal retreat. And one of my friends, she is very content to stay home with her kids. She is pretty introverted, but God has given her these talents that she is using more and more. For example, she directed a skit that's, you know, at our church for Easter and did such a great job. And she has written this book that's kind of like a Little House on the Prairie-esque book. And she was working on it at the writing retreat. And, you know, she's around these other women that are speaking all over the country and doing all these things. And so, some way she's like, "What am I doing here?"

 

And we reassured her she was right where she should be. And so, this fall she's going to teach this class using her book with homeschool students. And then they're going to write their own books. And Laura, I just think it's so fun to see her using what God has placed in her hands in her sphere of influence. And so, I love to—a lot of times people just need that nudge and a little bit of cheerleading to take those next brave steps. I also sometimes they just need to see somebody else doing it to realize that they can do it too.

 

And again, it can look so many different ways from having people into your home. I have a friend named Cherry and she started a ministry called "Welcome to the Table" where once a month she welcomes women into her home. They share a meal and it has just exploded because people are hungry literally and figuratively for that kind of community. So, a lot of times my coaching looks like encouragement, looks like some practical steps that they can take. A lot of times creatives are not finishers. And I have this weird blend of creativity and administration.

 

And I just love to help people kind of have a roadmap for what would it look like to get it done. And so many people do not set deadlines, Laura. They're like, "Yes, I'm going to write that book. Or yes, I'm going to start that event. Or yes, I'm going to start a book club." But then they don't give themselves a deadline. So, even just that little tip of like tell somebody else your deadline can really help get the wheels turning.

 

Laura Dugger: (40:11 - 40:41) That's good. Again, such practical advice. And Katie, you are such a natural encourager. There's even a joy or lightheartedness in your voice and a warmth. And I love how you come alongside others and help develop them and see their dreams fulfilled. So, I love that generosity of spirit. But I also want to hear what else is coming next for you, including, will you tell us about this novel that's becoming a movie?

 

Katie Reid: (40:42 - 42:40) Yes. So, interestingly enough, when I launched my first book, Made Like Martha came out in 2018. And then I had this idea for a book about Deborah from Judges. Well, wouldn't you know, here we are seven years later and that book is finally coming out. So, in the meantime, as I was encountering a lot of closed doors about this particular book, I was like, "Well, I'm a creative and I'm a writer. And if I can't write nonfiction, I guess I'll try fiction."

 

And so, I wrote a Hallmark-like story called A Very Bavarian Christmas. We self-published it. It came out in 2020. And funny that God knew that people actually needed something lighthearted with a happy ending because I wrote it in 2019. And then when it came out, people were hunkered down and just needed that kind of feel good type of clean rom-com. And so, I call this the little book that could, Laura, because literally I got an email from Carlos from California and that it went to my spam folder. And it surely sounded like spam, but what Carlos said is, "Our team has read your book and we would like to purchase the movie rights." And so, sometime in the future, it will likely be on UP TV. There's going to be a movie based on my novel.

 

And then the sequel, A Very Bavarian Summer, has recently come out. July 5th was its release date. And it's just been such a fun journey. So, a publisher ended up picking up the series. And I was just as surprised as anyone. I was hoping it would be a movie. I kind of wrote it like that. And again, there was many voices saying, "Yeah, you know, you're not a fiction writer. So, let's kind of see how it goes." But I just knew that God had given me this story and that anything is possible. And it wasn't a guarantee. It would all turn out how I thought it would. But it's been a very fun and exciting journey for sure.

 

Laura Dugger: (42:41 - 42:52) That's incredible. So excited for you. I have to keep us posted for when we can see that. But where else can we go after this conversation to continue learning more from you?

 

Katie Reid: (42:53 - 43:51) Well, the best place is at my website, katiemreid.com. And Reid is R-E-I-D. And if you subscribe, listeners, to my website, I send out a good newsletter, I call it, once a month with all the things. I'm also on Instagram @katiem_reid. And then my books are available, Made Like Martha, God, What Do I Do?, A Very Bavarian Christmas, and A Very Bavarian Summer. And so, we're also pitching another Bible study. So, hopefully in a year or so there will be some more. But I love to resource people. My desire, whether I am writing nonfiction or fiction, is to see captives set free. Because Jesus has set me free. And I long for others to live that abundant life with Jesus. And so, that thread is throughout each resource we offer. And I would love to connect with listeners over my website or online.

 

Laura Dugger: (43:52 - 44:17) I'll make sure to link to all of that in the show notes. I love that, setting the captives free, joining that good work that Jesus is doing. And Katie, you already know that we're called The Savvy Sauce. Because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight or discernment. So, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Katie Reid: (44:18 - 45:12) Well, I am bad at small talk. I like to go deep fast. And so, I feel like my savvy sauce is asking meaningful questions. Whether that be of my spouse or my kids. And really getting to know their heart and what makes them tick. We call them quality questions.

 

And I think people are willing to open up when they feel safe, when they feel seen, and when they feel known. And so, I love to just kind of dive in deep. In fact, my husband and I will joke if we're out on a double date or something. I'll just say, "Listen, I'm bad at small talk. So, can we talk about fill in the blank?" And so, I think that's one of my savvy sauces. It might annoy some people, I guess. But I think it's really fun to watch someone talk about something they're passionate about. And just get to know them better.

 

Laura Dugger: (45:13 - 45:52) Amen to that. I love that so much. I do not think it's obnoxious or annoying or anything. I actually very much appreciate when we first met through Justin and Jenny Moss. And Justin's been a repeat guest, so I'll link to his episodes as well. But we met at their daughter's wedding. And I was instantly drawn to you. And it was near the end of the night, so we didn't get to spend as much time together as I hoped. But you have that magnetic personality. And I love even the gifts of your decisiveness. And the way that you're able to articulate all of your wisdom and share it with us. It was such a blessing. So, thank you for being my guest today.

 

Katie Reid: (45:53 - 46:04) Laura, thank you so much. And I love what you're doing with The Savvy Sauce podcast. And you are just shining and in your element. And it's so evident. And I just appreciate you.

 

 

Laura Dugger: (46:04 – 49:49) Thank you, Katie.

One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

How Launching My Husband into Outer Space Changed the Way I Live on Earth: Special Patreon Release with Stacey Morgan

“Therefore see that you walk carefully [living life with honor, purpose, and courage; shunning those who tolerate and enable evil], not as the unwise, but as wise [sensible, intelligent, discerning people], making the very most of your time [on earth, recognizing and taking advantage of each opportunity and using it with wisdom and diligence], because the days are [filled with] evil.”

Ephesians 5:15-16 AMP

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. How did God meet you in your experience of army life to reveal your choice of hope vs. fear?

2. What have you learned about community, both before and after your experience of launching your husband into space?

3. For all of us, how can we rediscover our fun side when we’ve been trapped in survival mode for too long?

 

Stacey Morgan is always ready with a funny or thoughtful story from her own life; whether it be holding down the home front during military deployments, working for the Smithsonian, skydiving, or blasting  her husband into outer space. Stacey is on staff with MOPS International, a nonprofit focused on the unique needs of mothers around the world. She and her husband, Army colonel and NASA astronaut Drew Morgan, have four children.

 

Connect with Stacey on Instagram or through her website.

 

Other Savvy Sauce Episodes Related to Friendship:

Friendship with Drew Hunter

Reflecting Jesus in Our Relationships with Rach Kincaid

Nurturing Friendships with Jackie Coleman

Art of Friendship with Kim Wier

 

Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and The Savvy Sauce Charities (and donate online here)

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:09)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 2:54) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. I want to say a huge thank you to today's sponsors for this episode, Chick-fil-A East Peoria and Savvy Sauce Charities.

 

Are you interested in a free college education for you or someone you know? Stay tuned for details coming later in this episode from today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. You can also visit their website today at https://www.chick-fil-a.com/locations/il/east-peoria.

 

I'm so excited to share a special Patreon re-release episode. And if you've been with The Savvy Sauce for a while, you know that we used to make some money by having people sign up for Patreon and as a reward, they would get access to special episodes. Now we have done away with that as we've transitioned to becoming a nonprofit, and we want to make all of these episodes available to you, so we re-release a few every year.

 

What I'd love to ask is, as we're approaching the end of year because we've taken out that revenue stream, would you consider financially supporting Savvy Sauce Charities?

 

There are two simple ways. First, if you want to mail us a check, that saves us all of the processing fees, and you can make that out to Savvy Sauce Charities and mail it to P.O. Box 101, Roanoke, Illinois 61561. Also, if you want to go online, visit thesavvysauce.com and you can type in different words to the search button. You could type in “donate” or “support” and it should take you to the place where there's a button to click and put in your credit card information and give that way. We would be so grateful for any amount, and we love our partnership with you.

 

Here's our chat.

 

Stacey Morgan is my guest today, and you may have heard her name in the news over the past few years. She has documented her story in her debut book, The Astronaut's Wife: How Launching My Husband into Outer Space Changed the Way I Live on Earth. And now she's going to share more about that season and all the lessons God taught her about making the most of her one incredible life, and she's going to inspire each of us to do the same.

 

Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Stacey.

 

Stacey Morgan: (2:55 - 2:58) I am so excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

 

Laura Dugger: (2:58 - 3:07) Well, it is truly my pleasure. And will you just start by giving us a little bit more context for our time together and just share a few things about yourself?

 

Stacey Morgan: (3:08 - 4:49) Sure. Well, hi, my name is Stacey. I currently live in Texas.

 

I have four kids. I'm married to a guy named Drew who has kind of an unusual job. I grew up in a small town just outside of Boston and was kind of a scholar-athlete growing up interested in a lot of different things but always involved in church and youth group. And that really served me well when I went off to college.

 

The first college I went to, West Point. And actually, I'll tell you in a minute, but that is where I eventually met my now husband, Drew.

 

We got married after I graduated from undergrad. He's a little bit older than me and he is an Army officer. And so, we have moved all over the country. We've lived on both coasts and had a number of kinds of unusual situations just, you know, kind of typical for a military family living all over the place.

 

I've had a lot of crazy jobs. I think mainly I have an unusual story because I'm really quick to say yes to things, which sometimes, you know, it's a double-edged sword. Sometimes you say yes and you realize, “I should have thought through that a little bit more.” But really it's been quite an adventure because we have had the opportunity to live in a lot of different places, experience a lot of different things.

 

And we ended up here in 2013. We can kind of get into that if you want, but we ended up down here in Texas with my husband, who is still an Army officer, but he became a NASA astronaut. And so, that totally changed the direction of our lives and kind of changing all the plans we had for what we were supposed to be doing in the military and ending up down here at Johnson Space Center. Then, him eventually launching into outer space.

 

Laura Dugger: (4:49 - 5:01) Wow, there are so many points to unpack, but let's back it up to what you had mentioned about West Point. So, will you just elaborate and tell us more about how you and Drew met and fell in love?

 

Stacey Morgan: (5:01 - 7:21) Sure. So, we were both cadets at West Point when we met. He was a little bit older than me, but we met through Officers' Christian Fellowship, which is a Christian club that is very popular on military bases, both at the academies but in big Army and other services as well when you get out.

 

It's a, you know, it's like small groups, typical for what most people would find comfortable in kind of church community. And so, we met there and we just kind of clicked, you know.

 

I would say it's funny looking back, we were not the type of people I think we would have thought we would marry. He was far more serious than I am. I'm a little bit more, I’m the one to more kind of like walk the fine line, but we work together really well.

 

We've always been a great team. That's always been a real theme in our marriage, you know, that we are a team. And, you know, when he proposed after I graduated from undergrad, he kind of said, “I promise you a life of adventure,” which at the time sounded wonderful and adorable.

 

Of course, it has come back to haunt me several times when he has been, you know, come up with some crazy plan and when I hesitate he's like, “I promised you adventure.” And I'm like, “Now that's unfair. I did not know when you said adventure back in 2000 that you meant all these crazy things like going to space or all these different deployments and all this kind of stuff like that.”

 

So, we now have four kids. We've been married this summer will be 22 years. And, you know, it hasn't been without its challenges like any marriage and certainly any marriage under stress because of stressful situations, whether that's military deployments, whether that's space travel or just kind of life and parenting. And as you kind of grow up together and get to know each other and the world changes around you, we've certainly had ups and downs, but we are a team.

 

And I think God has really honored that and it's been really helpful for us when we've had those sticky seasons where you just feel like, “Man, we are just not connecting or kind of jiving the way we would want,” to actually say to each other that we are on the same team and that has been really helpful.

 

Laura Dugger: (7:22 - 7:40) The part of your story that involves space travel is one that most of us will never be able to relate to experientially, but it's still extraordinary. So, can you walk us through the detailed events leading up to 9:28 p.m. on July 20th, 2019?

 

Stacey Morgan: (7:42 - 15:28) Sure. So, I should back it up one big step behind that just to give everybody a little context. So, in 2012, we were kind of living our lives. We had always been deep into the Army Special Operations community. We love that. In order to live and kind of thrive in that environment you have to be all in, and we were all in.

 

And one day my husband came home and he was uncharacteristically giddy and he said, “You're not gonna believe this huge news. NASA is opening up the application window for a new class of astronauts.”

 

And I thought, “Why are you telling me this? This has no bearing whatsoever on our lives. We are on this path and that is a completely different path.”

 

And he said, “Well, I want to apply.”

 

And I thought to myself, “Well, I wanted to be a ballerina at one point in life, but that ship sailed. Like who doesn't say they always wanted to be an astronaut? Like this seems like a childhood fantasy.”

 

But he said, “No, I just want to apply. Like don't worry, all of our plans are gonna stay the same. They've never selected an Army physician before. I just, you know, I want to...” You know, the joke was that you'll always be a NASA applicant, right? And that'll be great. We'll laugh about it at family Christmases and stuff.

 

Except he kept making it through every gate. And so, in 2013 we got the call that completely took our life off of one set of train tracks and put it on another. At that time, we were currently stationed just outside of Washington DC at Fort Belvoir. We were supposed to be literally the next week moving to Germany. And that's how close these changes kind of came up on themselves. And so, we had to unravel everything for Germany and move to Houston, Texas, because that's where Johnson Space Center is.

 

And so, he began his training in 2013. I started my journey in learning a whole new culture, a whole new way of doing life. I'd never lived in a place that was at least not near a military base or within a military community. Didn't quite recognize at the time how much that shared sense of community had made things easier in terms of connecting with people before that and when I didn't have it.

 

So, it was probably our rockiest transition for me personally that I'd ever had in terms of friendships and getting connected. That's a big part of my story because I think friendship struggles are so common for adult women. It's just something that nobody really teaches us how to do and so a lot of women are very lonely.

 

But fast forward, he trained for several years until it was eventually his turn to fly. And in 2019, the only way to get to the International Space Station was to fly on a Russian Soyuz rocket. So, some people are very confused because they think, “Well, every space movie I've ever watched is taking place in Florida, right? Whether that's Apollo 13 or Armageddon or whatever. Why didn't he launch from Florida?”

 

Well, between 2011 and 2020, the Space Shuttle program had ended. SpaceX Crew Dragon had not yet started launching from Florida again. So, for about a 10-year period, the only way to get to and from the International Space Station was to ride a Russian rocket.

 

So, that's what NASA did. They went into partnership with the Russians, which of course makes things very interesting given today's kind of current political climate and all the world events. But that meant when it was Drew's turn to launch, we as a family had to travel to Kazakhstan, which is a country that I could not spell before 2019.

 

And so, if you don't know where that is, don't feel bad. I didn't either. I had to look it up. It's a former Soviet Republic really kind of in between Russia and Afghanistan. So, it is in the middle of nowhere. And when the Soviets were building their space program in the 1950s and 60s, they built their secret space city there in Kazakhstan. That's where they started their space program and they have kind of kept it unchanged and they continue to launch their rockets from there today.

 

It was a whole kind of world travel and cultural experience to take my four kids to Kazakhstan, which is a completely different cultural experience for really what came down to a very stressful, very emotional moment really waiting for that launch. So, unlike Florida, which you know when you watch on television, it's colorful, there's a lot of people, a lot of spectators, big people remember from the shuttle days big countdown clock, a loudspeaker kind of telling everybody what's going on... that's not how it is in Kazakhstan.

 

So, about 30 minutes before the launch, the kids and I were brought to this viewing area. And by viewing area I would say big field. It's not... there was kind of some grandstands area far at the other end of the field, but that's where all the space tourists stand and the press and all that kind of stuff and we didn't want to be near them. So, our escort brought us down to the end, the other end of the field, and it's just dark and it's quiet and there's no announcements. There's no countdown clock. It's just looking at your watch or your phone there just kind of in the dark and you just know that that Russian ground crew is going to launch that rocket at exactly 9:28 p.m. Not a minute earlier, not a minute later.

 

And so, standing there in the dark holding my kids' hands, and we can see the rocket in the distance only about a mile away, which by rocket launch standards is very close. Knowing that in a minute or 30 seconds or 10 seconds as it gets closer, it's either going to be one of the best days of your life, super exciting, super proud moment, or it's going to be the worst day of your life, and you could become a widow.

 

And as much as it's easy to kind of get complacent because incidents are so rare, but we all can remember any number of space disasters that have happened. Columbia, Challenger, those are very real. And with my time down here at Johnson Space Center, you come to learn those names and you meet those families and you meet those widows and widowers and you realize that space travel is dangerous. You know, at the end of the day my husband was in a little tiny capsule on top of a rocket full of highly explosive fuel. So, it's very scary.

 

And in that moment standing there thinking, “In 10 seconds my life is going to change no matter what happens.” Even if this goes perfectly, what happens next? I don't really know. It's kind of like having a baby. You can read all about it and assume things will be the way they're going to be, but until you're in it and then it happens, you don't really know how it's gonna go.

 

And so, it was a really overwhelmingly emotional moment because you think this could go sideways. And also, by the way, the world is watching live with me. So, if something goes wrong, I'm not able to process this privately. I will be experiencing it in real time with the rest of the world.

 

But even if it goes perfectly, what happens next? Like what does it look like to live on earth with a spouse in space and single parent for nine plus months while their other parent is in space? And you really don't know and it's scary to think like, “Gosh, what if something happens?” You know, he can't like come home early. Can't just like a business trip jump on a plane or a train and get home early. There's no coming back early. So, whatever happens, I'm on my own for better or worse. I'm on my own and I hope I have the endurance and the support system and everything I'm gonna need in order to be successful in this nine months.

 

Laura Dugger: (15:28 - 15:47) And my heart is pounding a little bit faster just as I hear you describe this. And I'd love to get back to your story, but first just to pause and wonder with that mixture of this adventure right in front of you and then your experience of army life, how did God meet you in all of that to reveal your choice of you're able to choose hope or fear?

 

Stacey Morgan: (15:47 - 22:32) Right. So, you know, when you take the time to step back and think, sometimes you don't see these patterns in your life until you kind of start putting them down on paper. And it was interesting for me to see how God had prepared me for that moment with other moments, especially related to military deployments in the past. Because certainly experiencing a rocket launch and all that fear and kind of this moment of where is my hope found in this moment, that was a varsity level moment.

 

But I'm so thankful that about ten years earlier God really started to prepare me for that moment with some other big moments. Like when my husband deployed for the first time.

 

I'll never forget, it was the height of the War on Terror. So, we were living in a military community which was amazing and a lot of my friends' husbands were also serving in the same military units or similar military units and they were deploying. The tempo was high so that meant, you know, six months deployed or longer, coming home for short amounts of time and then deploying again. Lots of action specifically in Afghanistan and Iraq at the time.

 

And so, lots of fatalities, lots of injuries, lots of grief, and for spouses a lot of fear because we knew what they were doing was very dangerous. And so, for me and my friends we kind of had this unspoken rule which I think a lot of people can understand which was, “Let's just not talk about this scariest thing because somehow talking about it makes it seem more possible.”

 

And as crazy as that is to say, people get that. You know, there's a lot of things we don't talk about because it's just too scary to think about. And so, for us the scariest thing in our life at that time was the fear that our husbands would not come home, that they would be killed in action. And that felt very real because we were going to memorial services, we were visiting people in the hospital, we were turning on the news and seeing what was going on in the world. And there was often communication blackouts because we knew that they were doing things that were very dangerous, very secretive.

 

And so, at the time I happily did what everybody else was doing which was, “Let's just not talk about it. Let's just kind of live life managing.” We felt like we were managing this fear, I think that's what I would have said at the time.

 

But then one day my friend Lisa, who's an amazing friend and she's always like two steps ahead of me on the wisdom scale, we were having coffee on her front porch and she turned to me and she said, “I've been thinking a lot about what life would be like if our husbands were killed.”

 

And this was like a bomb drop. I mean because we just were not supposed to be talking about this. Like here the rest of us had been avoiding all morbid thoughts about what could possibly happen with our husband and instead she had like turned and looked it straight in the eye.

 

And I was shocked. And so, I kind of sat up straighter and I said, “What do you mean?”

 

And she said, “Well, I've been thinking about it and it's not that, you know, life would certainly be hard and doesn't mean we wouldn't need counseling or our kids wouldn't need support, but life would still go on even if that happened. Life would still go on. Life would still be full of good things and God would provide and bring people around us to support us and I've just been thinking about that.”

 

And I was stunned. I was absolutely stunned because while the rest of us were too afraid to face that fear, in looking at it she kind of exposed it for what it was, which was certainly real and an absolute possibility that that could happen. But when she started walking down the path of like, “Okay, if this happened then what would happen?” You have to decide, “Do I believe God would really be with me or not? Do I believe His promises are true that He will be with me on good days and bad days and that He will draw people to me who will love me and support me? And have I plugged myself into friends and a faith community that would be there for me if that happened?”

 

And it was a game changer. That was probably one of, at the time, the biggest life-changing conversations I'd ever had as an adult because it really did shift how I viewed feeling afraid about things like that. And so, I had several opportunities... Drew deployed several times and then certainly doesn't take combat deployments to feel afraid like that. I know I have felt it before when my daughter was in the NICU, you know, and I had to leave her in the NICU and go home at night. I know I have felt it during this pandemic several times. I know I'm gonna feel it when I drop my oldest off at college this summer. You know, this moment where it just life feels very scary mainly because of the unknowns that come next and the fact that you have no control over those.

 

And so, that rocket launch moment was, you know, I felt like God was really prompting me in that moment to say, “Hey, if this rocket explodes like what will you do with that? Do you still trust me that I'm here with you and that I will still bring people to you and love you? Like is your support, is your foundation and your hope truly found in me or is it found in this rocket launch going successfully? Because it might not, and then what does that mean for you?”

 

And so, it really was this choice of am I gonna choose to live a life of fear, which is our default because if you do not choose something else we will always live a life dictated by fear of something. It's exhausting to live like that because once you conquer one fear another one's gonna pop up. Then they come in bunches and they just start layering on top of each other. Honestly it can lead to despair because there's plenty of things in the world to be afraid of and new ones just pop up every day.

 

So instead, I felt like God was offering me a new way of living and it really felt tangible in that moment of that rocket launch which is, “Hey, I hope that you will choose to find your hope in me. Just me. The one unchanging thing in this world that will be unchanging regardless of what happens with this rocket launch in 10 seconds. But if it goes well or if it goes poorly I am unchanging. You can rely on me. I will be with you in the best and the worst of times. And even if the rocket launch goes successfully and whatever happens in the next nine months, I'm with you there as well. So, you don't need to be afraid because I'm here with you. You can have hope that I will enable you to do what must be done no matter what happens tomorrow.”

 

Laura Dugger: (22:32 - 22:49) I'm so grateful that you chose hope and you chose faith. And then after all of that excitement and that adrenaline experienced on launch day, what did your life look like in the months to follow?

 

Stacey Morgan: (22:49 - 26:47) Yeah, it wasn't easy. You know I joke that those nine months really were like it was like a master class in all these little lessons I've learned throughout the years, but I'd never had to put them into practice at this level and all at the same time.

 

So, things like being honest about that I needed help. That, you know, there are times in the past where I have certainly wanted people to know or think that I had it all together and that I could do it all by myself especially, you know, I think every mom feels that way.

 

Certainly, military spouses, we take a lot of pride and feel like I'm doing this on my own.

 

And I realize now that I had certain seasons I have made life a lot harder for myself because I somehow thought that there was like an extra trophy if I finish the race by myself. I said that it was like, spoiler, there's no trophy. And also, I was just making it harder for myself.

 

And so, this season I could not fake it. Like past seasons I could fake it. This one I could not fake it. I had two teenagers, two tweens, a lot of hormones and then prepubescent and puberty things flying around. Just a lot of scheduling, a lot of driving, like just life. And then just the stress of living with someone who, you know, a spouse who was living in space and the stress of what does that do to your marriage, to parenting and, you know, parent-child relationships. Just every single piece of running a house, of parenting all the things, was solely on my shoulders and that's a big weight. And it was tough. It was tough.

 

So, I could not fake it. I had to ask for help. I had to be willing to ask for it and receive it, which are two different skill sets I found. It's sometimes you get good at one and not the other. I had to get really willing to be vulnerable as my friends and say things like, “I'm really lonely.” Can you know, it's like being honest. Like everything's not just, “Oh, this is so exciting. Oh, isn't it so great? Aren't we just so proud of them?” Yes, but at the same time sometimes I'm lonely. Sometimes I'm struggling.

 

Sometimes in my stress I would overly focus on trying to control my home life or what was happening within my own house and become not as pleasant of a person to live with because I was just trying to kind of regain some control in what felt like a little bit of a chaotic world and then you become not your best self and you know that. And so, I had to learn how to kind of get out of that survival mode and still have fun even when life is hard. And really just kind of accept that life isn't one thing or the other. You can be in a hard season and it still have good things in it. Life can be full of opportunities and challenges and one does not negate the other. And when you try to live your life by one narrative or the other, not only are you faking it but you make life harder than it needs to be and you kind of block other people out of it.

 

So, there was a lot of learning going on in there but we really all came down to that first decision of how am I gonna live my life in this season? Am I gonna live it fearfully, reactionary, hair trigger, you know, just stress all the time because I'm afraid of what comes next. I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to handle it? Or am I gonna live a life of hope, which is of course like not wishes and dreams but it is anticipation that God will be with me no matter what comes down the pipeline. And sometimes that's divine comfort that is hard to explain but you just feel it. Sometimes it's people he draws to your life who literally will sit on the couch with you and just like hold your hand or give you a hug that moment you need it. Sometimes it's someone offering to carpool or take your kid out driving because they're trying to get their driver's license, you know?

 

But that's really the biggest thing for me. I talked about it in chapter one of the book because that's the foundation that really all those other lessons were built on.

 

Laura Dugger: (26:47 - 27:26) And I think also with your book, it was helpful to hear little insights into what it looked like for your marriage. And it was even interesting when you said it's really important for astronauts to have forms of entertainment and that you were so committed to being involved in Drew's life and that you two still found ways to stay connected. I just think that has to be encouraging to any married couples listening right now because you clearly had a big barrier to overcome. But what were some of those ways that the two of you tried as best as you could in that season to stay intimately connected to one another's lives?

 

Stacey Morgan: (27:26 - 31:19) Yeah, it's not easy. And I think there's kind of this fallacy that is kind of dangerous for especially young married I think to believe which is like in every season of your life you're gonna feel amazingly connected to your spouse and you're gonna constantly be growing in your relationship. And sometimes that's not true. Like sometimes one person has a job that takes them away from home or someone is sick or there are other issues going on in your life where the connection is just not as strong not because you don't want it to be but because the circumstances you find yourself in don't allow for that.

 

And certainly, while my husband was in space that was a lot of challenges to feeling connected. I mean there's good communication but there's a difference between like quality and quantity, right? So, he could call me on the phone every day but because of the time differences and his schedule the only time he could call me was between 4:00 and 5:00 p.m. my time, which as any person knows and with any kids, is like the worst time of the day. Like everything's happening, the wheels are coming off, homework, pickups, dinner prep, like all that kind of stuff was crazy.

 

So, needless to say, I was not able to sit down and have like a heartfelt drawn-out conversation. And then kids hate talking on the phone so he wasn't really talking to them during the day. I'm like, you know, my eight-year-old isn't gonna send him an email. So, you know, there wasn't like a lot of quality or quantity conversation with the kids which of course puts a little stress on your marriage too because you worry about that.

 

And then we have one video chat a month and you want it to be fun. You want it to kind of be good for the kids as well as him but it's a very, you know, it's one hour to share between five people and so that's not a lot of time. And so, the reality is that for that season there was a lot of, I would say, relationship treading water. And you're, you know, the goal is just not to let things go downhill, which you can easily do in life when you and your spouse are experiencing the same event but from different points of view. And that's what we were doing. You know, we were sharing the mission but from two vastly different points of view.

 

And so, you do your best. But the difference is I think you have to in order to kind of come out on the other end better, you have to have a kind of a mutual commitment that, “Hey, we're going to... we are eventually going to come back together on this. We can't change the circumstances. I can't make the time difference different. I can't give you more time on the phone. I can't... there's things I just cannot change. But we are committed as a team to doing the best we can right now and when this circumstance changes, in this case when he came home, we're gonna kind of back up again and do some story sharing and reconnect about some things that we just didn't have the opportunity to in the past.”

 

And so, it's a little bit kind of like two steps forward one step back but eventually you still come out ahead if you are committed to trying to come back together and share those experiences in one way or another. Where you run into kind of danger is if people start experiencing two different things and then they never come back together so the gap just kind of keeps widening and widening. And then you hear when people say like, “Yeah, I woke up and I felt like I was living a different life than the person who was sleeping next to me.”

 

And so, reminding us to ourselves that we are a team even though we were experiencing the same thing. I didn't know a lot about a lot of the things he was doing. He didn't know a lot of stories about how things were for me. And so, it's okay to tell them later if you don't have the ability to tell them in the moment as long as you both have the goodwill and you prioritize coming back together eventually.

 

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It sounds like you really leaned into your friendships. So, what would you say you've learned about community both before and after your experience of launching Drew into space?

 

Stacey Morgan: (34:26 - 38:07) Well, I tell you what, I realized that as an adult often a lot of us don't really know how to do friendship well. And our culture is so, it so values independence that we often convince ourselves that if we tell our friends or our community that we need help or just kind of show our true heart for how important it is to us, that somehow that's gonna be kind of like devalued or we're gonna feel weak. And I realized like, “Man, I wasted a lot of years trying to be tougher than I really am.” And I wish I could go back and change that because in this season, mainly because I had no choice. And so, God really used this opportunity to show me like, “Hey, I'm gonna kind of like force you to open up your heart, be vulnerable with this small group of really trusted friends and like just trust me to see what happens next.”

 

And I did and it was a game-changer. I mean, I have a lot of deep feelings but I put a little bit of a tough exterior and I forced myself to be super honest and super vulnerable with my friends and say things like, “I'm lonely or I don't even know what I need but I'm just feeling exhausted or angry or this is really frustrating to me or I need help with this and I don't even know where to begin.” And just let those friends step into my life in a really intimate way.

 

And you know, I think we've all had a friend at some point who has asked for help and we have been so happy to help them and we've never thought less of them for it. But somehow when it comes to our own time we're like, “Oh, I don't want to trouble anybody. Oh, they're gonna think I can't handle it.” Or like, “Well, this is like I made this bed so I better lie in it. You chose to have all these kids, you chose this career, you chose this whatever, like this is your problem.” But we would never say that about another friend. And so, I don't know why we are harder on ourselves than we are on our friends because it's not right. Most of our friends are happy to help us. They love us helping us, being with us, comforting us, supporting us. That's how they show how important you are to them and we need to let them do that.

 

I've also gotten better about verbalizing the feelings that I had always felt inside but I felt awkward verbalizing. Like, “Thank you for being my friend.” Or like, “Thank you for just spending this time with me,” or, “You are an important person in my life.” Words that we say to our kids, that we often say to our spouses, but sometimes for me at least felt weird saying to friends and I'm really trying to get better about that. That was a great nine months of practice. It doesn't come easy or natural I think to anybody but it's a game changer. Like why not tell your friends how much they mean to you?

 

So, community is essential. Like don't try to lone wolf this life. I've certainly had some more extreme experiences than probably the average person, but the principles are the same. Get plugged into community and have multiple circles of community. Certainly, your faith community but also you know if you work, if you go to the gym, if you go to school, like your kids' friends, like there's so many circles of community and don't be afraid to just jump right in and get connected. And you've got to do it before you are in crisis. You've got to kind of invest in these friendships so that you know them and can trust these friends so that when those seasons come that are hard you have this small group of people who you can rely on. It will be a complete game changer in your life when you have a small, could be one person, can be two people, trusted people who can journey with you.

 

Laura Dugger: (38:07 - 38:34) I could not agree more. I really think that friendship is one of the most precious gifts were given in this life. And going back to your marriage we had discussed that time of separation but then there was a whole other season of transition as well. So, what was it like to come back together after being apart for nearly 10 months?

 

Stacey Morgan: (38:34 - 42:55) Yeah, so it's funny there's always these Hollywood romanticized versions of what reunions must look like whether that's a military deployment reunion or you know when an astronaut comes home. And I think people assume it's some kind of like hot sexy romantic can’t keep hands off of you but the reality is far different, right? Because it's... I mean maybe it is, maybe that's how it is for some people. I will just say for us, you know, when you've been living an independent life for however long, whether that was you know a six-month or an eight-month deployment or a nine-month deployment to outer space, you know I was living my own life fully independent for that long where I made all the choices. I didn't have anybody looking over my shoulder or you know there's a little bit of independent freedom there when you're the only one kind of making the big decisions.

 

And so, when that person comes back into your life, which you want them to come back, you're happy they're home, but there is this awkward transition period. It's definitely an opportunity for some tension because now there's another opinion back in the mix, right?

 

Like I had to kind of adjust my way of doing life for another person who had a valid opinion, another decision maker. The kids had to adjust to having another parent back in the house. You're kind of getting to know each other so there is a little bit of a sniffing out period where you're like, “Hey, nice to meet you.” Because we all change. You know you could be gone from someone for a month, you know, you're not the same person you were today as you were last year or six months ago or maybe even a month ago. So, anytime someone comes back in your life they're different, you're a little different. You're like my friendships had shifted over those ten months, like my work had shifted, everything in my life had moved on and he had not been there in the house with me to experience that so there was... it was a whole new set of experiences and a new person to get to know again.

 

Now he came home and what made it a little bit more dramatic was that Drew came home in the startup of the pandemic. He came home in April of 2020 which at the time I think we weren't sure, “Are we going up? Are we coming down?” We know now looking back we realize things were just ramping up; the world was, we were all still very confused about what's the best thing to do can we all the things you know. So, NASA pretty much brought him home and then he came home to our house after just a few days in kind of the quarantine facility there on Johnson Space Center. But then he came back to our house and then it's like he never left because all of the normal stuff that would happen when you come home from space like travel and meetings and all these kind of things were all canceled or postponed.

 

And so, instead of kind of like getting to know each other slowly it was like zero to sixty. I mean he was home and he didn't go anywhere, none of us could go anywhere. So, we joke that the irony that he was in space with five professional crew mates in a small space and then he came home to live in our small space with five amateur crew mates who are certainly not nearly as gracious or accommodating or helpful as the professional astronaut and cosmonaut crew mates he had. The irony is not lost on us. So, he came home I don't think we've ever spent that amount of time together you know 24/7 in the same house with all four of our kids, no school, nowhere to go because everything's closed. And so yeah we're getting to know each other in this kind of Petri dish of new experiences as the world is also kind of like upside down and everything's unusual.

 

So, in the end it was okay. I joke like we did a lot of “I was like let me go do this puzzle I just need some alone time” or “I'm going for a walk around the neighborhood please don't text me. I'll be back when I'll be back I just need a few minutes to myself.” I think everybody has had that moment in the during the last two years where you're just like, “I just need a few minutes alone please,” you know in my if you've been trapped in your house with somebody who you're not normally with 24/7.

 

Laura Dugger: (42:56 - 43:17) Well sure and with your experience, mental health is very important for the family of the astronaut and the astronaut themselves. Wasn't it your psychologist who is saying typically when you come back and enter this time of reentry and reuniting you do little bit by little bit because that tends to be wiser?

 

Stacey Morgan: (43:17 - 45:22) Yes, that's right. They call it titrating a return. That's a principle they have in the military as well which is they would normally come back from a deployment for at least the first couple weeks back from a long trip away they would go to work every day for several hours because it's you know psychologically difficult for two people who have been living very independent lives to come back together just with like zero transition. The military has learned this over the last 20 years you know that you could go from a combat zone to mowing your lawn in 24 hours. That's stressful especially if you add in you know marriage baggage, kids you know nagging kids or issues like that, financial struggles, that's a kind of what can be a breeding ground for some really difficult situation. So, it's best to let people get to know each other again a little bit at a time.

 

Like you said the normal return from space was kind of the same thing. It would be come home and then you'd have some physical therapy, you'd have these different meetings and it would be a little bit like going to work for several weeks while they're getting their body and everything back to normal. Then, you kind of could have this kind of extended time at home but it gave both people the ability to kind of like reintroduce themselves to each other in bits and pieces and just kind of ease into it. But we did not have that luxury so we kind of had to create it ourselves. And I am glad again that we had those past experiences to know where the potential minefields were. If you were not prepared you could be very disappointed if you went into it thinking, “Oh, they're gonna come home, it's gonna be like romantic. We're gonna be like together and loving it all the time and just connecting so deeply. It's gonna be amazing.” And then the first time that your spouse is like, “Why are you emptying the dishwasher like that?” It's important to know like, “Yeah, if there is going to be tension it is going to be awkward. That's okay that is part of the normal cycle and it's gonna be okay.” But I'm glad that we had that knowledge beforehand because it could be tough.

 

Laura Dugger: (45:22 - 46:07) Well and Stacey another reason that I really appreciate you being willing to let us enter your story with you. When we have different careers or we have someone in the military and a civilian who's not involved, there's so much room for assumptions and maybe not always assuming the best. There's opportunity for miscommunication so I'm just wondering about the person who's hearing this and what if they're thinking, “Well that sounds irresponsible or even selfish of Drew to choose this path if he's a husband and father.” So, how would you offer that kind of person another perspective that they might be missing?

 

Stacey Morgan: (46:07 - 48:20) I mean I would say is when it comes to astronauts for sure, you know, these are not like hot-rodding thrill-seeking people. In fact, I would say I think a lot of people make the assumption that people who do some of these higher like physically higher risky jobs must be like thrill-seeking you know just thrown caution to the wind about everything in their life. Actually, nothing could be farther from the truth. I think you would find that we certainly and I would you know I think a lot of people in the same career field are similar and that we are good risk calculators. And that like policemen, like firemen, like military personnel you know it's an act of service to be in this job. These are not just like you know space tourists or billionaires getting on a rocket for fun. These are professionals who have chosen a career field of service and whether that is as a policeman, a fireman, a service to the nation, service to humanity, service to their community and they all play a part in that.

 

I think most people recognize that that it is you know there's something to be said for the person who chooses a career that has a level of risk because they feel called to it and because thank God for people who will take on risk and are willing to potentially sacrifice themselves for someone else. I mean I think it's kind of a higher calling which is why in general in our culture we honor them and rightfully so. It is risky, it's very risky. They certainly don't do it for the money. I don't think anybody in any kind of government service would say that they're doing it for the money, that's for sure. You know they're doing it because they feel called to something bigger than themselves and to serve their fellow man in some way. That's certainly I know how we feel as a family that his choosing to transition as an Army physician into being still in the Army but serving in this capacity was just the next level up. The way he could serve our community, our country, our nation and all of humanity and he really is its service first. It's the opposite of selfish; it is selfless service really.

 

Laura Dugger: (48:20 - 48:55) Mm-hmm thank you for that. I just say amen to everything you just said. Really it's service from your entire family that requires a sacrifice from each of you like you said for the greater good. And I think something else that you pointed out so well in your book was that having this value more so of security or not living into this calling that you said this calling was put upon your lives that could actually be idolatry if you're starting to place a higher value on security or anything else other than God and so I think you model that well.

 

Stacey Morgan: (48:55 - 51:13) Thank you. Yeah I think a lot of people you know sometimes these idols creep up on us we don't realize that we have put something on a pedestal until it gets threatened to be taken away from us and all of a sudden our reaction is over the top because we're you know you realize, “Gosh, I'm finding my security in this thing I'm finding my identity in this thing whether this thing is a job, another person, a political party, a scientific breakthrough whatever it is.” Right? Like and I think a lot of people, I certainly felt it you know in that launch moment like, “Am I finding my identity in being married to this person or him having this job or this launch being successful? Because if I am in about 10 seconds my world may crumble because if that could all be taken away from me.” And in that yeah I think we all kind of have probably had a moment especially in the last two years where for a lot of people something that they have built their life on has been either taken away from them or has it has been threatened to be taken away because of the pandemic a job a person in their life you know a relationship your kids going off to school every day I mean whatever it is that you've built in your life and you have put on this pedestal and you kind of made without even realizing it have started to place more hope in those things remaining unchanged than you have in God. And all of a sudden when those things are threatened you have this over-the-top emotionally fearful response that's kind of an indicator I think to all of us like when we have that is like, “Whoo my fear and my response should tell me that I seem to be very very afraid that this is going to be taken away from me because I am putting too much hope in it. Instead, I should be taking that and putting it back where it belongs. I should reprioritize where I am finding my hope and the only unchanging thing that we can build our foundation on is God. Everything else, every person, everything, every job, every whatever it is can and could possibly be taken away from you and on your deathbed will be.” So, you know you can't help but have a little bit of self-reflection there.

 

Laura Dugger: (51:13 - 51:23) Well and then for all of us how do you recommend that we all can rediscover our fun side when we've been trapped in survival mode for too long?

 

Stacey Morgan: (51:23 - 56:05) This is a great question because I think all of us have felt this definitely in the pandemic. You know this part in your life where everything in the world feels very chaotic and so you try to regain some control in your own life by maybe regimenting your kids a little more, cleaning your house a little more, you know, controlling things at work or whatever your environment is. And without really realizing it you become this just like survival mode like your day just becomes about making things easier for yourself, streamlining things, making things just go go go. And you wake up one day and you were like, “I'm exhausted. Like why am I so tired? Why am I why do I have like no joy? Why do I just feel unhappy?” And you realize that you have not done anything other than just be like surviving and cleaning and doing work or whatever it is like you have just been doing the basics with no fun whatsoever.

 

So I have been there I hit that a bunch of times in the pandemic, but I certainly hit it when Drew was in space because it's really hard being a single parent and managing all of the emotional burdens and the logistics of it. And I realized that I was cleaning a lot I was kind of getting a little bit more trigger angry with kids or people who you know were making me upset because when you're in survival mode it's all about just like “Get out of my way let me do what I want to do,” it's about getting things done quickly and other people become an annoyance instead of a joy in your life.

 

So it's all about going back to something that that fills you up and it can be something really frivolous it can be something like it's very it's 100% unique to you and so I can't tell you what that thing is but I would say the first step in kind of getting yourself out of survival mode and kind of getting back to your your whole self is asking yourself the question like, “What do I enjoy?” Not for its educational value, not for its good cardio exercise or and not what your kids enjoy, not what is Instagram worthy, or anything like in your soul what fills you up? Is it reading? Is it watching movies? Is it riding bikes? Is it roller skating? Is it you know eating Mexican food? Like what is it that you enjoy doing that when you do it you just feel like more of yourself?

 

And then just go do it tomorrow. Like it's gonna take prioritizing time probably some money but that is as much of a part of who you are how God created you. He didn't make you this like worker bot or like just a mom or just a wife or just a daughter or a sister like He made you a whole person and a huge part of who you are are these things that you enjoy. And you cannot continue to pour into other people or work or your community if you are never getting filled up yourself. You will just dry out, you will be burnt out, you'll be unhappy and you'll actually be worse in all these other areas where you were trying to work hard because you're just gonna be like a shell of yourself.

 

So, for me it was prioritizing time with friends. It was... I got this crazy flyer on my front door for roller skating lessons and I had this fantasy of being a really good roller skater that stemmed from like when I was eight and so I signed my girls and I up for roller skating lessons which was hilarious and very humbling but it was just silly. It took time, we had to prioritize the time on every Saturday it took money, but it was just fun. It had no educational value my kids will look back on it and be like, “What was that all about? I don't even know.” But it was great because even in the midst of a stressful season like that was a very stressful season, undeniable, but as part of that narrative it will not only be like, “Yeah it was really tough when my dad was away and you know my mom had to like single-parent us but that was also the season where my mom took us to roller skating lessons. Isn't that weird? That was so weird.” And we'll laugh about it.

 

And so, it's just about finding something that you want to do and then just unapologetically spend the money, spend the time, and invite a friend to do it with you again. Doing something with a friend is always more fun than doing something alone. Don't feel like you have to justify it or explain it to everyone you don't need to take pictures to post online you don't need to tell it just just go do it and have a good time. It's amazing how when you do that suddenly like those dust bunnies or that email that had a weird tone that you got don't annoy you as much as they used to because your kind of like finding your whole self again.

 

Laura Dugger: (56:05 - 56:27) That's helpful to remember to live life to the fullest and be ready for the next adventure that life's gonna throw at us. Yeah. And just as a bonus can we just ask what are some of the most common questions that you and Drew answer about space?

 

Stacey Morgan: (56:27 - 57:25) That's a good question. A lot of like personal hygiene questions about teeth brushing toilets how do you know take showers or whatever and of course the answer is they don't take showers. But and then of course a lot of people want to know, “Hey I've always been interested in becoming an astronaut how does somebody do that?”

 

And there are so many resources online people you know I say, “Look go online read all about it. There's amazing videos NASA puts out an incredible amount of resources that you can read up on but at the end of the day do what you are most passionate about because the likelihood that you, or your nephew, or your cousin, or your co-worker, your son, or, whoever it is that you know is convinced they want to be an astronaut the likelihood of them being an astronaut is very low. So you should do what just fills you up do a career and a life that you are passionate about and if God calls you to that path those doors will open but if He doesn't you'll still be living a life fully within God's purpose for you.”

 

Laura Dugger: (57:25 - 57:39) And Stacey you're such an incredible communicator both in this interview time together but also really enjoyed your book. And so, if people want to follow you to hear what you're up to next, where would you direct them online?

 

Stacey Morgan: (57:39 - 58:41) Sure well they can go to my website StaceyMorgan2000. That's like Stacey Morgan two zero zero zero dot com. That has my blog that has links to a different podcast like this that I've been on and they can check that out. They can find me on Instagram same handle StaceyMorgan2000.

 

And you know if people want to reach out, I love when people have been sending me messages lately after they've read the book it's been so awesome. You know I tell people like I certainly didn't write this book for the money I'm actually donating all my book proceeds to charities that support military families. So, I've been joking like, “Hey read the book if you don't like it the worst that happened is you donated to a military charity. If you do like it buy ten copies and give one to all your friends. But if you do like it I love it when people send me messages and just tell me kind of like what resonated and how it spoke to them.” That's just been one of the I would say the coolest aspect of completing this project was kind of putting it out there and then getting to see how God uses it in people's lives.

 

Laura Dugger: (58:41 - 59:02) There were so many things that resonated but off the top of my head if anybody has a copy of the book they'll have to turn to the part about baloney on sale friends. And Stacey you may know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge and so as my final question for you today what is your savvy sauce?

 

Stacey Morgan: (59:02 - 1:01:08) Well I'll piggyback off your baloney is on sale friends’ reference and that would be: pick up the phone and text your friend. We didn't need a study to show us this because I think most of us have just known this in our soul but there is an endemic of loneliness in the world right now as you know we've got all these ways to connect and yet people feel more disconnected. They feel more lonely especially women and what I learned through my own kind of relationship struggles over the years is that everyone's waiting for someone else to go first. That you in that moment you feel like you're the only person who's feeling lonely and alone and that everybody else is in these friend circles and you're just somehow on the outside. But the reality is that pretty much everybody feels the same way you do and everybody's sitting at home wishing someone would just text them and invite them to coffee.

 

So that's my practical tip is don't wait, go first be the bold friend or even acquaintance like it doesn't have to be someone that you are super besties with. But those baloney is on sale friends like I said you have to read the book and understand that that is like a special category of friendship that's the kind of friendship that our soul longs for but those things don't appear or like pop out of the ground. That kind of friend doesn't just show up it's developed over time it's invested in and cared for and loved and it starts with literally a text to go get coffee. That's how every great friendship story begins. So, if that's you, if you feel like yeah I don't have this close friend who I can do something with I'm lonely. Okay take that first step be the one who picks up the phone send that text message to the woman from church, or the woman from the gym, or that friend you haven't talked to in a while and just invite them over for coffee. Nothing fancy nothing crazy no agenda just come over for a couple hours for coffee. Every single person I know who does this no one ever regrets inviting a friend over for coffee. That's the first step that we can all take into just feeling more connected and having those kind of friends that we want.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:01:08 - 1:01:31) Love it. Well Stacy your book definitely changed my perspective on risk and I was so hooked on all the stories that you shared so I believe that your book is truly a gift to anyone who chooses to read it and your faith is very inspiring so thank you for sharing your journey with us and thank you for being my guest.

 

Stacey Morgan: (1:01:31 – 1:01:33) Well, thank you it's been great.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:01:33 – 1:05:16) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Breaking Through Addiction in Marriage with Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith (Episode 277)

277. Breaking Through Addiction in Marriage with Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith

 

*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults.

 

1 John 1:9 AMP "If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just [true to His own nature and promises], and will forgive our sins and cleanse us continually from all unrighteousness [our wrongdoing, everything not in conformity with His will and purpose].”

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company

 

Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith are clinicians, speakers, and authors with over 20 years of combined experience in counseling, coaching, and guiding couples toward healing and transformation. Their mission is to help couples navigate the complexities of relational challenges, particularly in the aftermath of sexual addiction and betrayal trauma, fostering deep restoration and growth.

 

Matthew is a Professional Certified Coach (ICF) with a background in pastoral leadership, while Joanna is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, EMDR practitioner, and Certified Clinical Partner Specialist through APSATS. Both hold Master of Divinity degrees and have served together on multiple church leadership teams. Currently, they co-lead their private practice, The Raabsmith Team, where they specialize in helping couples rebuild connection, trust, and intimacy.

 

Their passion for this work stems from their own journey of restoration. After experiencing the devastating effects of sexual addiction and betrayal in their marriage, Matthew and Joanna embarked on a years-long pursuit of reconciliation. This transformative experience led to the creation of tools like The Intimacy Pyramid™, a practical model for relational restoration and growth co-created with colleague Dan Drake. 

 

Their first book, Building True Intimacy (2023), has sold over 1,000 copies and provides practical guidance for couples to use the Intimacy Pyramid to create enduring connections. They also founded Renewing Us Recovery™, a comprehensive program designed to support couples in the later stages of relational restoration. In November 2025, they will host the inaugural Renewing Us Couples Retreat, offering workshops and connection opportunities for couples on similar paths of recovery and growth.

 

Matthew and Joanna live in Memphis, Tennessee with their three young children. They prioritize self-care through shared adventures, new experiences, and a weekly game of pickleball.

 

Free Resource Mentioned in Episode

 

Building True Intimacy book

 

Questions and Topics Discussed:

1. What were the warning signs that you noticed when you were newlyweds that tipped you off to believing things weren't quite as they seemed?
2. Are there any common life circumstances, whether nature or nurture, that predispose someone to be more likely to struggle with a sexual addiction?
3. As couples seek to thrive in marriage, will you give us an overview of the intimacy pyramid you wrote a book about?

 

Other Episodes Mentioned During Episode:

Pornography: Protecting Children, Personal Healing, Recovery, and Victory in Christ with Sam Black

Pornography Addiction and Helpful Recovery with Crystal Renaud Day

 

Additional Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce:

Anatomy of an Affair with Dave Carder

Protecting Your Marriage Against Unfaithfulness with Dave Carder

Stories Series: Recovery From Sexual Sin in Marriage with Garrett and Brenna Naufel

Supernatural Restoration Story with Bob and Audrey Meisner

Special Patreon Re-Release Wholehearted Quiet Time with Naomi Vacaro

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:12)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:13 - 1:38) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.

 

Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com, or connect with them on Facebook.

 

Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith are my guests today. They are clinicians, speakers, and authors with over 20 years of combined experience in counseling, coaching, and guiding couples toward healing and transformation. Our conversation takes a few turns, from getting to hear their incredible and vulnerable story of healing and then getting tips for talking to our children about topics like sex, and also even receiving some practical wisdom and tips for enhancing our own marital enjoyment.

 

Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Matthew and Joanna.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (1:39 - 1:40) So good to be here.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (1:40 - 1:42) So glad to be here. Thanks for having us.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:42 - 1:51) Oh, truly my pleasure. And let's just start here. Can you share your story going back to meeting and falling in love and your first part of marriage?

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (1:53 - 2:17) Sure, yeah. It was a little bumpy at first, actually. So, I knew Joanna through her brother. Joanna's brother was one of my best friends, and I got to meet her whenever she would come in town and visit, and she would invade guy night.

He would usually bring her along to like a Lord of the Rings movie or something, and I would be a little frustrated because I would be like, oh, you brought your sister. Great. That's wonderful.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (2:18 - 2:24) A little off-putting, not super friendly. And I was like, your friend's kind of a jerk. We did not like each other at all in the beginning.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (2:24 - 2:54) Not big fans. And eventually over some time, we started to realize we had a lot in common. We liked to do a lot of the same things.

 

And one summer that Joanna was in town, we started hanging out, started doing more and more together, and really just kind of developed a friendship, which was really fun. And at the very end of the summer, realized that there was something between us. And so, we went on one date.

 

Our first date, we entered a golf tournament. We won it, and that was a good sign.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (2:54 - 2:55) That's a pretty good sign.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (2:55 - 3:02) And we went on three more dates over the course of two months and got engaged.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (3:03 - 3:07) And then two months after that, we got married.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (3:07 - 3:16) Yeah. So, her brother went from like, yeah, it's cool you date my sister, to like, you're not ready to get married. But he's come around now.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (3:17 - 3:19) 15 years later. Yeah.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (3:19 - 3:40) And, you know, a lot of it was, I think we had a definite sense of being kind of called together, being, you know, something special about who we were as a couple. And also, a recognition that we wanted to figure out what a good marriage looked like. We were really excited about marriage, but we didn't really know what we were doing.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (3:41 - 4:15) Yeah, I've had a really great model of healthy relationship. My parents have a wonderful marriage. They work really well as a team.

 

And so, I knew, like, I want something like that. But as soon as we got married, we realized, but how do you actually build that? There's no, like, instruction manual for, okay, here are the things to do to have a great relationship.

 

And so, we read books. We went to conferences. You know, we did what we could, but we still found ourselves getting stuck, not able to really create, like, that deep sense of, like, connection intimacy that we really wanted.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (4:15 - 5:17) And we started kind of hunting more and more for resources. We found some incredible resources that really changed our understanding of the way relationships work, the way people work, and really, for us, shifted our entire focus of kind of what we wanted to do, even with our life. And as we started to do that, though, we still kind of found ourselves at this kind of glass wall.

 

We felt like no matter what we tried, there was always this kind of distance between us. And that started to grow kind of over the years that we were together. It wasn't getting better.

 

It was actually kind of getting worse and worse and worse. And so, Joanna had actually decided to, after we finished our first grad degree together, the idea was we were going to go be pastors. And so, we had finished our kind of theological training.

 

Joanna decided she wanted to get a master's in marriage and family therapy so we could do some work around marriages and ministry in that way. And her very first-class kind of just set our life in a completely different direction.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (5:17 - 6:26) Yes. So, my first class in the MFT program was a two-week intensive called Shame and Guilt. So, that's a really fun two-week intensive to be a part of.

And as a part of that, though, they had an anonymous pastor come and share his testimony of struggling with sex addiction, becoming sober, getting into good recovery, healing and restoration in his marriage, kind of like that whole journey. And as he was talking, something inside of me started stirring. And I knew, OK, what he's saying is resonating way too much with me right now.

 

I think this is the thing. This is what is keeping us stuck, not able to really create the relationship we want. And so, that day I went home and first I just kind of started talking about my class, what I learned, what this pastor had shared.

 

Right. And nothing. Right.

 

We're just kind of talking generally about it. And so, finally I couldn't do it anymore. And I just stopped and I looked him square in the eyes and I said, “Are you struggling with this in our marriage right now?”

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (6:26 - 8:03) Yeah. And for the first time in my life, 20 years, I had been struggling with pornography, sexual addiction, and acting out in our marriage. And for the first time in my life, I was honest.

 

I had lied for years, both with Joanna and everyone else. And the kind of floodgates just kind of opened up. And I finally said yes.

 

And it was really hearing the story, I think, is what did it for me. I think it was knowing that somebody else had made it, that their life hadn't come crashing down because that was the greatest fear for me. That the moment anyone found this out, everything in my life would be over. Everything that I loved would be gone.

 

And so, this kind of story of hope gave me a little bit of courage that day, to be honest. But that started a really long journey for us because there was a lot of damage that was done in both of my hiding. And now kind of this revelation, all the pain kind of came crashing down on Joanna and kind of her shoulders.

 

And so, we started a quite intensive recovery process. We talked about it being kind of a full-time job. I went to recovery for my addiction and for kind of my acting out behaviors.

Joanna had to begin a process of healing from the trauma of this discovery. And that process took us a number of years. It really was a long kind of arduous journey, but one that we ultimately survived and now thrive in our marriage and get the incredible luxury and the kind of gift of helping other couples do that.

 

So, that's kind of where we find ourselves.

 

Laura Dugger: (8:04 - 8:30) That is incredible. I just really appreciate you sharing your story. Clearly, stories are so powerful and that's what led to some healing for you and hopefully can open the floodgates for somebody else listening.

 

So, if we go back in your story, then, Joanna, I'd love to start with you. What were some of those red flags in early marriage that things aren't quite as they seem?

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (8:31 - 10:28) Yeah, there are a few. You know, I think that, you know, one of the pieces we kind of talked about, like, OK, we knew we're still getting stuck because there's 90 percent that felt really good. But then 10 percent that was extremely chaotic, really destructive.

 

Right. We would get we call the pain cycles when we get emotionally dysregulated. And there would be some things that, right.

 

Sometimes we would get into pain cycles, get dysregulated. And I kind of understand why. Right.

 

Like something happened. There was the disagreement. But other times I couldn't put my finger on it.

 

Right. Matthew would just get really angry and really shut down. And I wouldn't be able to connect it to anything that had happened in our life.

 

And so, it was very confusing. It was really hard to understand what was going on. And I think kind of in the same way, when I would pull too close into that connection, that intimacy, he would pull back.

 

Right. And it felt like even though we both named this goal and this desire, he would never actually partner with me in it. And so, again, that was really confusing because the actions were not matching up with reality and what was happening.

 

And I think the other piece that was kind of true for us and true for a lot of other people is that our own sexual relationship was fraught with pain. And so, there was, again, a lot that was really good, but also a lot that was really painful and confusing. And some of the pieces just didn't connect.

 

Right. And I would wonder, OK, what's going on? Well, I guess this is just the reality that like this is how much we get to expect in this area of our life, right.

 

In our relationship. And so, it was when the pastor started describing his life and addiction and what that looked like emotionally, sexually, relationally. I was like, oh, those are all the things that I'm currently experiencing.

 

Here's one thing that would answer all those questions that I have. And so, I think that was part of it. He kind of told me, like, OK, this is it.

 

Laura Dugger: (10:28 - 11:00) That would be so eye opening. And my heart's going out to the couple who is maybe starting to identify with this. Was it and share whatever you're comfortable with from your story or the person's story who opened things up to you?

 

So, sexually, I'm wondering if it was for you, Joanna, if you were hoping to connect sexually and that wasn't happening and that was confusing. You didn't feel pursued. But I don't want to fill in the blanks.

 

So, could you elaborate?

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (11:00 - 12:03) Absolutely. Yeah. And we find it a lot of different ways than couples that we work with.

 

Right. And so, it can be sometimes on either side of the extreme. And so, for us, it was where there would be kind of times when he'd be fully present and interested and engaged.

Right. And then all of a sudden, kind of like I described emotionally, he would just withdraw and not be there. And I would reach out to connect.

 

And that was this like non-response. And which, again, didn't match up with those other times when he was engaged and wanting to connect. And he would give some sort of excuse that didn't totally make sense.

 

Right. But I was kind of like, what else? What was I left with except that?

 

So, I would kind of believe that and go with it, even though it didn't sit right. And so, yeah, I think that was part of it. We will see on the other side for some other couples.

 

It's the opposite. And maybe that spouse is hypersexual in the relationship. Right.

 

To the point where there might be pressure, even pressure to do things sexually that people aren't comfortable with. And so, yeah, it can look a lot of different ways. But that was kind of what our disconnect looked like.

 

Laura Dugger: (12:04 - 12:33) That's so helpful. And there's two different directions I want to go, Matthew. So, I'll set it up.

 

I guess I'm thinking of the guilt and shame and how those are usually so present. So, I have two questions. Were you when Joanna came to you, were you at a point where you recognize something was off and you wanted freedom from this and or had tried freedom before?

 

Let's start with that and then I'll go into the other one.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (12:34 - 14:40) Yeah, it really was holy timing in a lot of ways. I, you know, for a lot of years I had I hated what I did. I didn’t feel like I could stop it, but didn't have a lot of interest in kind of doing anything to stop it.

 

I kind of just like would just say, “OK, this is going to be the last time.” And then, you know, of course it would come back. But I think at this point I had really started to see the damage that was happening to our relationship.

 

I could feel us growing close, growing further apart. I could see kind of Joanna and the confusion that she was having. And like she couldn't understand things.

 

She would ask me a lot of questions that I didn't have answers to. And so, I actually a couple of months earlier, we were at a worship service, and they had said like, “hey, if you are ready to give something up, if you feel like there's something holding you back, come forward and confess it.” And Joanna and I were sitting next to each other, and I remember feeling like the Holy Spirit just like pulling me to like get up out of my seat and I wouldn't move.

 

I was like, no, because she's going to ask me what I went down for. I'm going there's you know, there's a random kind of prayer partner at the front. I'm like, I'm not going and confessing this to some random person.

 

And so, I was ready. But I think like I said, I think there was no path forward. It was kind of confess this and everything stops and ends.

 

But everything like marriage ends, life ends. And so, when she when she brought this, it really did feel like God had kind of been answering a prayer that I've been praying of like, if you give me a way out, I'll take it. I'm desperate.

 

I want it to stop. And it felt like that. I think it was both this kind of terror and this hope that day.

 

And even when I said, yes, it was a little bit like, what have I done? Like, could this have been different? Should I have just gone and told someone else privately?

 

Right. But I think ultimately that it was out between the two of us and that we kind of knew it. We knew what we were dealing with made a huge difference.

 

But I mean, God had been working in my life, offering opportunities for so long. I just been saying no, no, no. And then finally, you know, I think my heart just broke and it was like, yes, OK, I'm ready for this.

 

Laura Dugger: (14:40 - 15:14) I love how the Holy Spirit equipped you with that humility and courage to be brave in that moment. And it's such a blessing for all of us to get to see the end or I guess not the end of the story, but you at this point in your story where you're thriving. And so, I hope that offers a lot of hope to people listening.

 

But let's also pause. And so, going back further in time, Matthew, this was the other part of my question. What was life and attachment and your growing up journey like?

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (15:15 - 18:09) Yeah, I didn't know that at the time. Right. I a lot of this I figured out in the last couple of years of recovery.

 

You know, if you would have asked me, you know, as I was growing up about my life, I would have told you I had the perfect family. I had the perfect life. I think I did not realize that some of the things that I was going through weren't perfect, were harder.

 

And part of that was because I think the way my family dynamic worked was we just swept everything under the rug. You know, whatever happened, we just kind of went, OK, and moved on from. And I learned to do that as a kid.

 

And that meant a lot of emotional chaos. There was a lot of physical chaos and kind of volatility in our house growing up. And even though I had parents who are still married to this day, have stayed together and have tried to create kind of a stable life.

 

There was a lot of emotional and kind of relational instability. We moved around a lot. And then once we started moving, I found myself more and more kind of isolated at school. I started dealing with bullying and some things that really kind of left me not knowing how to deal with the pain that I was going through. And so, my way of stuffing things under the rug was getting, you know, escaping, you know, kind of escaping into anything that I could. I watched a lot of TV.

 

I was a latchkey kid, so I would come home. I'd watch TV a lot in the afternoon and then TV kind of just turned to more and more. And I was exposed pretty young to pornography, actually at a church camp.

 

I was at a summer church camp. Someone brought a Playboy magazine, and I was exposed to pornography. And I kind of felt that high, that rush.

 

And that just became kind of a mode of my escape. Right. Of whatever I could do to engage sexually, whether with my mind or with others.

 

That's how I could get out of the pain I was in. That's how I could stop feeling kind of the chaos that I was having and not realizing that it was becoming this kind of adaptive habit, that it would just be this thing I would go back to more and more. And I grew up at a time that technology was still emerging.

 

So, I can remember when we got our first computer and no one was talking about safeguards or anything. And so, it was just kind of exposure. Here you go.

 

Here's everything you could ever want and don't need. And that really became my life. And the more and more that I did, the better and better I got at lying and hiding and even being kind of vulnerable in kind of fake ways.

 

I would mention things like, yeah, we all have this struggle. And even Joanna, I had told like, you know, that was a struggle of mine in the past, but I've moved on from it. Right.

 

I told myself and other people just kind of lie after lie after lie so that I could have really this double life. I could appear one way and then I could be acting a completely different way, kind of in the dark.

 

Laura Dugger: (18:10 - 20:41) Yeah. And that makes sense. I'm thinking back to two episodes.

 

We did one with a male, Sam Black from Covenant Eyes, and he speaks so much of the origins of pornography and that foothold that Satan gets. And so many times it is in childhood, unwittingly you're exposed and then what it can turn into. And then Crystal Renaud Day came on to share a lot of females struggle with this as well.

 

And so, I'll link to those if those are a help.

 

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So, at that moment when you've confessed, Matthew, the floodgates open for you and Joanna.

 

What did life look like for both of you next and even individually your journeys?

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (20:42 - 22:30) Yeah, it was separate. We did not separate, but we were really focused on our two different journeys because they were so different. For me, I had to figure out what had really gone on in my life and what was really happening.

 

Because, like I said, I had become such an expert at hiding from myself and others that I didn't really know how to live any other way. And so, I, you know, Joanna kind of handed me a list of everything this pastor had done. She was like, here you go.

 

Right. She kind of handed me that list and was like, good luck. And so, I dove in.

 

I went to a men's intensive. And I think that was probably one of the key places for me to tell my story for the first time. I really took a look at my life and had some people help me take a look and recognize the trauma that I had as a kid exposure that I had experienced and what that really meant to me and helped me understand what I was doing.

 

But also, kind of what I was doing to myself, how I was really kind of killing myself from the inside out and preventing myself from having the kind of relationship I wanted with God and other people. And so, that discovery was in really ways kind of invigorating for me. I felt like I was living for the first time.

 

I think I had started to kind of get out of this kind of burden, this fear of always being caught. I told Joanna kind of the history of everything that had happened in my life and our relationship. And so, I was feeling this kind of renewed sense of like energy and excitement of like, this is good.

 

I want this life. I want the life there that I'm not in constant kind of fear and in constant kind of connection to this thing I hate. And so, which is really different than what Joanna was experiencing.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (22:30 - 25:07) Yeah. So, for me, it was very jarring in the beginning. Everything I thought was real came crashing down around me.

 

And that was especially jarring because I had left kind of the direction, the path that I was on. Right. We talked about our story earlier.

 

It included two months of dating, two months of engagement before we got married. And that also included me dropping out of law school, getting married and moving to California to pursue a ministry degree so we could work as pastors together or do something together. And so, in that moment, all of that came crashing down.

 

And I kind of was very lost, not just in our relationship, but in kind of what in the world am I even doing here? What am I going to do moving forward if he doesn't choose recovery? Right.

 

And so, just all of those question marks, all in that one moment of him answering that question affirmative. And so, so there was like that heaviness on one side and then on the other side was this relief of finally everything I've been experiencing makes sense. Right.

Finally, I feel like I actually know what's going on. And because of that, there could maybe be a path forward for us as well. So, is this very, very weird dichotomy in that moment? And so, but I think I knew right away, like, I can't be vulnerable. I can't be intimate with him anymore. Right.

 

I have to step back in our relationship and wait and see what he chooses to do. Is he going to choose to do the work of recovery and get healthy and start to be honest and safe or not? And so, that's so we kind of did kind of there's some space for a very long period of time while we focused on our own individual recoveries.

 

And that, again, was a little bumpy for me. This is over a decade ago. And so, there is very little information about what partners experience.

 

We call it betrayal trauma, and that just wasn't a very common word at the time. And so, some of the resources I plugged into came from a more we would call it codependent, co-addict focus, which just really didn't fit. So, I struggled to find resources that felt like they fit for my journey.

 

But once I did, it all again, my own healing process started to make sense. And it was so like freeing and liberating to understand. Like, oh, OK, this is what I'm going through. This is why I feel this way.

 

This is what it looks like to heal and move forward. And so, kind of beginning that process was so important because then when Matthew was kind of in a healthy, safe place, I was as well, and we can start to step in towards each other on that kind of more couples’ journey at that point.

 

Laura Dugger: (25:07 - 25:17) I love how you did that wisely, though, separate first, not rushing into couples at that time. Absolutely.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (25:18 - 26:33) Appreciate you calling it wise. I think we were terrified. Yeah, we'll take God's help.

 

I think he was like, you guys just work on your own stuff for a while. And in some ways, like I said, it was we didn't know what we were doing. But I think we knew we wanted there to be a future between the two of us.

 

But we knew it had to be completely different in some ways than what we had before, which was scary because we liked what we had before. Like we had a really great marriage in many ways. Right.

 

There was this portion of it, this hidden portion that was really infecting and killing it all. But what we did have together, we didn't want to totally lose. It just was really hard to know, especially early on, what's going to come forward.

 

Like, who are we still going to be as we go forward? Are we still going to be a couple who does things together? Right.

Who works together? Or is that all kind of going to have to be different? Is that the only way that we have kind of moving forward?

 

And so, that was that was probably the hardest part was having like this sense of like not wanting to lose us. We were like, if we lost that, that was going to be miserable. And I think a lot of our work was about how do we eventually reclaim this marriage that we want, that we love?

 

Laura Dugger: (26:34 - 27:04) Yes, because from what I'm sensing, you're friends with each other, you're on purpose or on mission with God. He did a course correction change, putting you on this path to help couples. But your desire to work together, it's like He still honored that in the ministry of reconciliation.

 

And I'm assuming abundantly blessed it beyond what you could ever dreamed up what we're doing now.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (27:04 - 27:42) Right. It's been amazing to see what God has done, how he's used our story, which is so fitting because it was someone sharing their story that brought our healing. And I think because of that and it wasn't right away; it took some time to get to the place where we felt open to God using our story to bring healing to others. But we found as we stepped into that, that we have received such a blessing.

 

Right. And just being able to sit with other couples in that journey and see them go from that place of pain and confusion to this place of restoration and thriving. Like there is no better work that we could have imagined for ourselves.

 

Laura Dugger: (27:42 - 28:09) Love that. And really, you did have to pioneer a path. There weren't many resources at that time.

 

So, that's another reason I'm grateful you can share your story, because I hope it unlocks freedom for others. So, if we're turning more outward now and you're helping as you work with couples, how do you help them identify the difference between sexual struggles and sexual addiction?

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (28:10 - 30:15) Yeah, that's a great question. And I think that it really kind of exists on a spectrum. And so, everything kind of exists under what we call problematic sexual behavior or unwanted sexual behavior.

 

Whenever someone is acting in a way sexually that doesn't align with their values. And then the question is, is how often, how compulsive, right? How habituated, right?

 

How really embedded is that practice? Because the more and more embedded it is and the more and more that I continue to act on that, seeing the damage that it's doing, that's really what qualifies as the addiction. The addiction is when I know that this is causing harm and I and I feel that even though I want to stop it and I've tried to stop.

 

Right. I can't stop the 12 steps has a great line. They say addicts, you know, addicts have no problem stopping.

 

It's staying stopped. That's hard for an addict. Right.

 

And so, that's usually a sign that there's an addiction. And really what that means is that just means that I'm going to have to be even more kind of thorough and scrupulous in my willingness to change a lot. Because if I have built an addictive lifestyle, that means everything I do kind of functions to support that lifestyle.

 

Right. And so, my part of that was this hiding. I lied about everything.

 

I would lie about anything just to make sure that I was in control of the narrative. And so, for me, it was recognizing that if I was going to move forward free of my addiction, then it had to begin with honesty, with this kind of radical honesty and transparency and growing in that consistently, because that was the way that I manifested this addiction and kind of kept it going. And so, that's really what the addiction is about, is recognizing what are the kind of pieces in my life that are supporting this addiction to continue to exist?

 

And how is God going to dismantle those things? Right. And how am I going to be a part of that dismantling?

 

Laura Dugger: (30:16 - 30:33) That's well said. And also, I'm curious, are there any common life circumstances, whether that's nature or nurture, that are more likely to predispose someone to more likely have this struggle with sexual addiction?

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (30:34 - 32:30) I mean, there are, I think, you know, the things that we tend to look for are trauma and trauma comes in so many different forms. So, trauma is more it's rare that it's a single event. It's often more a kind of consistent occurrences.

 

As I mentioned, you know, I can't speak to kind of one event in my life that I say this was the traumatic moment in which everything changed. But it was more of the chaos. And so, I grew up in a family that could be really, really, really loving and incredibly encouraging and fun and silly and in a heartbeat switch into one that was verbally and physically just chaotic and terrifying.

 

And it was that chaos that kept me on edge. What it did was it created in me kind of a system of always wanting to be on high alert. And that would exhaust me.

 

That would kind of wear me out. And I would want to kind of numb that kind of feeling away. And so, I think those traumas, I do think early exposure.

 

Right. I mean, I was exposed early before my brain was ready to really understand what it was dealing with. And I think the third component that we often see is a low level or a kind of really a void of sexual education.

 

There was I'm sure I had a small talk with my dad at some point, but we were not talking about pornography. We weren't talking about bodies. We weren't talking about sex from a kind of healthy, good way.

 

I grew up in the church, and it was kind of don't do this until you're married and then you'll be fine. Right. That was the sexual education message.

 

And so, those things, right, trauma, exposure and lack of kind of education usually forms in someone a difficulty of knowing what they're doing, knowing that it's destroying them before it's really kind of gotten a deep hole.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (32:30 - 33:20) I think like the brain. The brain aspect to when we talk about addiction, there are usually chemicals involved in addiction being formed, being created. And so, I think also co-occurring disorders, right, that emotional pain, also things like anxiety, depression, ADHD, where my brain really likes the dopamine it gets from sexual acting out. Right.

 

And you can actually need it to feel OK. That can also be a factor in kind of especially that addictive side of these behaviors. When my brain gets really attached to that dopamine release that it's getting because maybe I have some other things going on or I just have emotional pain.

 

I don't know what to deal with, how to handle it, how to regulate that in a healthy way.

 

Laura Dugger: (33:20 - 34:30) There's so many good points there. I'll just highlight one because there's a profound piece that you were talking about with early exposure to evil and the corruption of it is extremely harmful. And yet not being exposed to God's good design for sex and hopefully being coached by our parents, that is both of those play a part in the addiction. And so, I'm thinking even as we shift to think about parents, I know I've had parents come to me and just say, I don't want to talk about this with my kids.

 

I don't want to rob their innocence. And my approach is if God made it, this is good. We can talk to them.

 

You're not robbing their innocence when you're sharing the good age-appropriate parts of sex. And it's so great to be that first one to share with them. And I think it does the opposite of what we would expect.

 

We're afraid that that might make them hyper sexualized. But would you speak to that? Any encouragement for parents?

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (34:30 - 36:37) Yeah, it's tricky. I mean, even as parents, we've got kids and its still kind of navigating it. But I do think what it does is it lets someone learn the things they need to in the timeline they need to.

 

I think part of one of the things is that, you know, really good sexual education starts young. I mean, they start six and seven years old or even younger, just talking about our bodies. Right.

 

Because I think that's part of it. Really, this is about understanding the goodness of our bodies. This body was created by God, the maker of heaven and earth, and he called it good.

 

And so, I think part of a good sexual education begins with that. And then, what's really nice is once you've started the conversation, that means if your children are exposed or if they're presented with things that don't line up with what they've been hearing, they now feel safe to come and talk about that. Because that's really what this was about.

 

I didn't feel safe to talk about what I was exposed to, what people were doing. Right. And what people were encouraging me to engage in.

 

And so, you know, my parents would ask me how it's going. I would not tell them anything because it wasn't a conversation that they were having with me. And so, I didn't think it was a conversation I was going to have with them.

 

And so, that meant that as I found myself further and further away from my values, I felt like, who am I going to share this with? And so, part of having the conversation is it normalizes with our kids that this is OK to talk about, which is actually what adults need. I mean, part of our work with couples as adults, we have to get them talking about sex and body parts.

 

I mean, it's amazing to have 30, 40, and 50-year-olds in our offices and in our sessions. And they're so uncomfortable. Right.

 

They don't want to talk about sex. They don't want to talk about their bodies. They don't want to talk about what their bodies do.

 

Right. And we keep being like, this is God's good stuff. Right.

 

There is goodness here. But you have to begin by talking about it. Right.

 

Having these conversations.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (36:38 - 37:54) I tell all the parents I work with, your kids are going to pick up a narrative about what sex is and what sexuality is, whether you want them to or not. And so, would you rather be the first person to step in and give them a healthy view, a healthy narrative to understand? Right.

 

And this is beyond kind of the nuts and bolts that everything our kids are learning. They're trying to find a deeper meaning. They don't think it's unconscious when they're young.

Right. But they're taking it and they're going, what meaning does this have for me? How does this inform my self-worth, my view of my own value as a human in my body?

 

And how does it inform my experience of the world and my safety in the world? And am I empowered to make decisions? Am I connected?

 

Do I belong? Right. All of those questions are asking.

 

And so, as they're confronted with issues of sexuality, it's going to inform those things. And the world will not give them a healthy narrative about it. Right.

 

And so, being able as a parent to step in and give them that healthy meaning, that narrative, that understanding of their worth and their safety as they're piecing together kind of sexuality, again, at that age-appropriate level is so important.

 

Laura Dugger: (37:54 - 38:30) Guess what? We are no longer an audio only podcast. We now have video included as well.

 

If you want to view the conversation each week, make sure you watch our videos. We're on YouTube and you can access videos or find answers to any of your other questions about the podcast when you visit thesavvysauce.com. And I love that you're talking about this with couples you work with.

 

So, will you give us an overview of the intimacy pyramid that you actually wrote a book about and you teach to couples?

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (38:30 - 38:31) Absolutely.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (38:31 - 39:15) Yeah. I mean, it was born out of our journey because, as you said, we wandered for a while and we felt a little bit like Israel, just kind of, you know, knowing that the Promised Land was out there, but never really feeling like we could find it. And when we started to piece together, I think the kind of relationship that we had dreamed of reclaiming, we really ask ourselves, how can we make this a more direct, a simpler process, not just for couples who went through what we went through, but really for any couple who's hungry for this, for the couple like us when we were first starting.

 

It really wants an amazing marriage. And so, we really focused on a kind of simplistic idea of what are the core kind of foundational levels of building really healthy intimacy.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (39:16 - 40:10) Yeah. So, the intimacy pyramid, it's actually a triangle. There's a visual that goes along with it.

 

So, if you imagine the different levels of the triangle, very similar to Maslow's hierarchy of needs, starting at the bottom, you have to start with honesty. And so, we definitely experienced that reality in our own relationship. Right.

 

This is something we learned from Couples in Betrayal, but like Matthew said, we realized this is where every couple starts. Am I willing to be fully open, fully honest and transparent in this relationship? Am I being my authentic self?

 

Right. And after that level of honesty, that's when we start to build safety. And that has to do with our ability to communicate in really healthy, constructive ways.

 

Even when it's hard, even when we're disagreeing, even when we feel like yelling at each other. Are we able to show up with that belief that we both have the same goal? We're trying to build something together.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (40:10 - 41:57) And with honesty and safety, that's where we get to work on trust as a couple. That's that next level. And trust is where we start to be more partners, where we're really starting to kind of lean in, work together, kind of be courageous and saying, “Hey, this isn't just my life anymore, right?”

 

This is our life together. And as that trust is established, this is what allows for the incredible work of vulnerability. And there's been all these studies about vulnerability over the last few years and how important it is.

 

What we recognize, though, is vulnerability on top of nothing is actually really risky and kind of even dangerous. It's vulnerability that's built on healthy trust where we step in and we do share some of those deeper pains in those wounds, those fears. We start to really heal some of those kind of early traumas that we experience.

 

It's in that vulnerability. That's what allows a couple to be truly intimate. And it's when they've worked through each of these levels, what we find is these couples, when they reach this kind of this intimacy level, they're passionate about who they are as a couple.

They love kind of their relationship itself. They have a purpose to it. They have a sense that like our marriage, our relationship exists for a reason, but they're also really playful.

 

They're silly. They're really kind of comfortable in their own skin. And it's those five levels really working together that allows them to experience a relationship that gives life.

I think one of the things we know is that when God creates, it gives life. And so, God created marriage not to burden us, right? Not to kind of, you know, not even just to get us through, you know, kind of surviving life, but actually to bring more life.

 

Right. And not just life within the relationship itself, but life outside of it.

 

Laura Dugger: (41:58 - 42:22) Oh, I love it. And you're also working with couples. I've heard you speak before about the working on offering your spouse the gift of self-awareness.

And so, what could couples expect? How do you actually work with them to grow in self-awareness and recognize things like the emotional process they go through in marriage?

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (42:22 - 43:48) Absolutely. So, awareness. So, in our book, we obviously detail the intimacy period much more.

 

And that's Building True Intimacy is the name of the book. But each of those levels we just walked through have different components that go into that. And awareness is kind of like one of the most important components of that honesty foundation.

 

So, we have to start with awareness and we can't really build anything if there's a lack of self-awareness. And so, when we work with couples, one of the first places we start is we kind of look at the past. Are they aware of what they've been through, what those experiences are, and how those experiences have shaped them into the person that is now in the present, showing up with their spouse.

 

Right. And so, once I start to have that insight from my past, from those experiences, how they shape me, I can better understand my present. What are the things that I feel and why do I feel those things in particular?

 

Right. And then when I feel those things in a relationship, and these are typically those kind of heavier, more challenging, more painful emotions. How do I respond?

 

How am I showing up? Because the reality is that all of us cope with emotional pain the same way we cope with physical pain. We go into fight or flight.

 

That part of our brain gets triggered and we respond with these kind of destructive relational coping behaviors that then hurt my partner.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (43:48 - 46:22) Yeah. Like, for example, I told you about that chaos I experienced as a kid. And so, those would always happen around conflicts.

 

My parents would disagree about something. There would be some type of argument about, you know, and it could be anything where we were going for dinner or what color the curtains were. Right.

 

But it would create this chaotic environment. So, as I got married, the thing that I didn't like the least was any type of conflict. Joanna and I would get in when I could sense us disagreeing and we are both passionate.

 

We have opinions and we believe things and we get into this kind of disagreement and argument. It would freak my system out. And I didn't realize that because I didn't really know my past.

 

I didn't know what was going on. I would just really do anything to shut it down. I get angry and I try to get loud, or I just walk away in the middle of a conversation.

 

As Joanna was talking, I would just leave the room and my acting out was just a further manifestation of that kind of leaving the relationship. And so, part of my healing journey was to learn about my story and recognize, oh, OK, I can see what's happening. And what's really interesting is it still happens in our life today.

 

I've been in recovery for 12 years. I still feel the same things. Now it's more like when my kids are getting involved.

 

Right. And there's energy in the room and people are online. And then I go, oh, yeah, there it is.

 

There's my system again. It's starting to feel unsafe. It's starting to feel alone. And I know what it wants to do. It wants to get angry, or it wants to just shut down and walk away. And what's incredible is that we've learned the ability to see where we're at but also speak directly to that.

 

And so, what I get to do for myself now is I get to go, “OK, I know I'm feeling unsafe and I know I'm feeling alone. And I know I want to get angry to solve it, but it won't do it. But here's the truth. The truth is that I'm safe in God's economy. I'm empowered. I have an incredible partner in my life. I've never been alone. I've always had someone there for me. And Joanna is the perfect example of that.”

 

And that totally changes my sense of really kind of where I am. And it changes how I show up. I tend to be much more calm.

 

I ask questions rather than make demands. And it's that ability to kind of see where we're at and shift. That's just been such a game changer for our family and just for our own relationship.

 

We still have to work on it. You know, it doesn't always look that pretty. Right.

 

But when we do, it's amazing how different it goes.

 

Laura Dugger: (46:24 - 46:44) And then I just think of the generational impacts that has when people are willing to do the work. And so, if there's a brave couple out there who wants to seek their own help and healing, can you share where they can go for help, including the Raabsmith team and all that you have to offer?

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (46:46 - 47:30) Yeah, you know, we would love them to connect with us because I think one of the things we recognize was having guides along the way. I mean, we had to figure a lot out ourselves, but we also had some really incredible guides, some mentors, some coaches, some therapists. And so, we always just say, hey, connect with us.

 

You can find us at raabsmithteam.com. We have a heart for couples who want restoration and reconciliation because that's what we're getting to live and experience. And what's cool is our whole team, they're couples who've been through this work, but who also have been professionally trained to help other couples to just continue to guide and to grow relationships so that they're thriving and they're kind of giving that life.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (47:30 - 48:10) Absolutely. We also love to give out resources. And so, we have the kind of we call it the honest connection.

 

And so, again, if you're starting this journey or even this is for any couple who wants deeper connection, deeper intimacy, learning how to do that on a daily basis in small ways is so important. And so, we have a worksheet that couples can take and use. We're happy to provide that for them for free and kind of try this for 30 days and notice the changes that you experience in your relationship.

 

And so, that's a great starting point wherever you are in relationship to begin that journey of connection.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (48:10 - 48:14) And you just go to raabsmithteam.com/free and that resource is all yours.

 

Laura Dugger: (48:15 - 48:26) Wonderful. Add links for that in the show notes for today's episode. And is this then for any couple worldwide, nationwide?

 

Can you work with people?

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (48:27 - 48:55) We have we've got couples across the world, which is really fun. It's been really neat just to see the way that God has used our work. One of the things when we first started this journey, we started getting couples calling us saying, “Hey, I don't have anybody in my area that specializes in this, that understands this journey.

Can I work with you?” And so, we kind of felt a calling to say we want to make sure that we connect with people wherever they are. And so, absolutely.

 

If you can hear our voice, you can work with us.

 

Laura Dugger: (48:55 - 49:14) I love that. And just as a little bonus practical tip, you kind of mentioned being proactive to thriving in marriage. Is there any encouragement that you could share or a specific practical tip that anybody could start to incorporate if they want to take their marriage to that thriving level?

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (49:15 - 50:12) Yeah, I think just the ability to slow down. We have a  nine, seven and six-year-old. We own our own business, and we like life and life can get incredibly fast.

 

And I think what we have found is when, as I was mentioning, when I learned the ability just to slow down, even if I don't fully just know myself slowing down and checking in, just where am I at right now? Where's my heart? Right. Where do I want to be?

 

I think I realize that so often my values and my actions aren't aligned when I'm moving too quickly. I'm not being the person that I want to be. And we see that in so many couples. We meet so many couples and there are two really great people who have a hard time working together. They have a hard time kind of being a team.

 

And it's usually because they're working so fast. They don't realize they're kind of working against each other. So, slowing down, I think, is such a big thing.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (50:12 - 51:18) Another piece that's, again, really easy to start right away. A lot of couples we work with, and I think probably even us when we start a relationship, was there were two individuals in a relationship, and it was kind of either me or you. And starting to understand there's this third thing between you, the relationship.

There's a third almost entity that really needs care. It needs nurture. It needs you to focus on its needs from time to time.

 

And so, beginning to approach the day, even approach conversations with this question of like, what does our relationship need right now? And even as you're trying to make decisions, what is the way we can decide this in a way that's good for our relationship or what decision benefits our relationship rather than does it benefit you or me? Because when you get into that struggle, it can become a competition.

 

It can become transactional really quickly. So, starting to ask that question, starting to talk about the needs and caring for the relationship very intentionally can be a way to shift that.

 

Laura Dugger: (51:20 - 51:38) Thank you for sharing that. I think that leads into my last question, because you already know we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for both of you, Matthew and Joanna, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (51:39 - 52:22) I kind of mentioned this, but I think it's the willingness to be honest. I was so willing to lie to myself and kind of really hide from other people. And I didn't even know that I was doing it.

 

But as I have learned to be more honest in really kind of healthy ways, right. You can dump, you can whine, you can complain, you can get angry. But truly being honest meant just looking at what I was feeling and trying to kind of figure that out and name that.

 

As I have learned that ability to be honest with myself and with others, it has just opened up a new world of possibilities. And it has shown me how many people care for me; how much God cares for me. So, I think that honesty is something I just want to practice more and more every day.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (52:22 - 53:30) I think for me, just in my own journey and working with so many partners, that importance of being able to make empowered decisions in my life. Right. That I am really intentionally choosing the direction I'm going in life.

 

Realizing that instead of going into this more helpless, powerless victim stance is such a difference. And really the only thing that changes a lot of times is mindset. You don't have to overhaul your entire life.

 

Right. You have to add in like four hours of self-care and all of these things. But starting to shift that mindset into, wait, I have power in the decisions I make.

 

And one of the ways that's really important to do that is growing that self-awareness. I cannot make empowered decisions if I'm not aware of where I'm at emotionally, physically, spiritually. Right.

 

If I'm not aware of my needs on a regular basis. And so, slowing down to check those things in, sometimes even multiple times in the day if you're not used to that. So, you're more connected to yourself, to what you need, what you want.

 

So, you can start making those empowered decisions.

 

Laura Dugger: (53:32 - 54:00) I love that. It's just so enjoyable to host a very lively couple who's humble and you've done your work. And then you're willing to share all this overflow of goodness with all of us.

 

So, I think my prayer is that the Lord would richly bless you for this open-handed generosity of wisdom and your story and experience that you've shared with us and modeled for us today. So, thank you to both of you for being my guest.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (54:00 - 54:03) Thank you so much. It's a joy being here.

 

Laura Dugger: (54:05 - 57:47) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Conversations with your Teen About Sex Puberty and Identity: Special Patreon Release with Janelle Rupp

Special Patreon Release: Janelle Rupp Conversations with your Teen About Sex Puberty and Identity

 

*DISCLAIMER* This episode contains adult themes and is not intended for little ears.

 

"Walk with the wise and become wise, for a companion of fools suffers harm." Proverbs 13:20 (NIV)

 

*Transcript Below*

 

Questions We Discuss:

1. Perhaps one of the most asked questions by Christian singles is, "How far is too far?" How do you respond to that question?
2. Knowing the importance of educating ourselves as adults, what is the most popular sexual behavior among teens?
3. What are some wise and age-appropriate guidelines recommend for teaching our kids about sex and sexuality?

 

Janelle Rupp is a Christ-follower, wife & mom of three (in that order).  Upon graduating from Cedarville University with a Bachelor’s of Science in Nursing and a Minor in Biblical Studies, she worked nine years as a Pediatric ICU nurse before transitioning into nine years of nursing education for the Empower Life Center of Peoria, Illinois. There she specialized in Sexual Health with an emphasis on Sexual-Risk Avoidance. After moving to the Atlanta, Georgia area, Janelle developed a Biblically-based, Christian & Home school curriculum entitled “Remember Whose You Are: Rooting Human Sexuality in Gospel Identity." Using an expositional study of Genesis 1-3 alongside evidence-based scientific research, the four-unit program builds on itself to establish how gospel identity determines holy & healthy & holy sexuality. With a passion for both science & Scripture, Janelle is currently teaching the curriculum at North Cobb Christian School while watching the Lord grow the program at schools nation-wide.  She can be reached at jrupp.rememberwhoseyouare@gmail.com.

 

Recommended website for Parents: axis.org

 

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Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcript*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:09)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 1:31) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. Today's message is not intended for little ears.

 

We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.

 

Thank you to Daisy King's, a skincare brand that meets simplicity. Their tallow-based products are made with wholesome, God-given ingredients to deeply nourish, restore, and protect your skin.

 

There are no toxins, no fillers, just pure, effective skincare. Visit DaisyKings.com to nourish, restore, and glow.

 

Janelle Rupp is my guest today, and she packed so much knowledge and inspiration into this time by educating us on a healthy view of sex, sharing God's holy and awe-inspiring design of our bodies, and ways that all of this points to Him.

 

She also is going to include meaningful conversations to have with our children throughout the years that they're in our home. Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Janelle.

 

Janelle Rupp: (1:32 - 1:35) Thanks so much, Laura. I'm so glad to be with you today.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:35 - 1:42) Will you just get us started by telling us a little bit about your faith journey and where it's brought you to today?

 

Janelle Rupp: (1:43 - 4:51) Sure. I was raised in a Christian home. I remember from a young age actually being struck with the realization that God loved me so much that He sent His own son for me.

 

But it really was probably more in my teenage years that I realized the depth of my sin, that it was great, and that Jesus was that bridge between who God was and who I was. Also, early on in my life, I knew I wanted to be a nurse, which is actually kind of interesting because there was no one in my family who was a nurse or in healthcare. But I had watched my mom care well for others in her family who had a myriad of mental and physical health problems.

 

So, I do think that the compassion that God put in my heart at a young age did find its place in a healthcare setting just over time and experiences I watched her. I really felt like my dream job would be to work in preventative healthcare, specifically with teenagers. And I had a heart for girls in really tough situations like teenage pregnancy.

 

It's a very marginalized group of humanity. And so, after college, I ended up in the pediatric intensive care unit at Riley Children's Hospital in Indianapolis for about seven years. And during that time, I met my husband.

 

We got married. We had our first child. And then while pregnant with our second, we decided to move closer to my extended family back in Illinois.

 

And a few years after I had our second child, I actually ended up landing that dream job that I felt like the Lord had laid on my heart way back in college. And so, I started the Empower Life Center in Peoria, Illinois in 2008. And I worked there for nearly 10 years as a nurse educator, teaching parenting and newborn classes.

 

But my primary role was a sexual risk avoidance educator, specializing in sexually transmitted disease and infections. And I would teach in public schools and private schools and charter schools. It's a junior high and high school level and also a guest lecturer at Bradley University in Peoria, Illinois.

 

And I always tell people that no one grows up and hopes to be a sex teacher one day. I did not envision that God would put me in that area of education, but he did. And so, after 10 years of doing that, when our family then transitioned down to Atlanta, Georgia for a job transfer for my husband, we had chosen to put our kids, now three kids at that point, in Christian education.

 

And within months, the middle school principal had heard about my background and approached me to create a curriculum for their fifth through eighth graders that was centered on a biblical view of sex and sexuality. So, I spent a series of months developing that curriculum. I then decided to go ahead and accept a teaching job to teach that curriculum.

 

And it's entitled Remember Whose You Are. And it's designed as a four unit developmentally appropriate program for Christian schools or homeschool environments. And currently we're in the beginning stages of equipping and training other schools to implement it at their school as well.

 

Laura Dugger: (4:52 - 5:17) Wow, that is so interesting to hear how you got interested in teaching others this healthy view of God and sex. And at the foundation of your teaching, you begin with a theology of God. So, I'd love to zero in on just one of your points that God is a relational God.

 

Will you elaborate on that and share how it ties into this topic we're discussing today?

 

Janelle Rupp: (5:18 - 7:13) For sure. One of my goals in teaching this is just to help my students see God for who he is, fall in love with who he is. And God being relational is one of the places where I always notice that beginning to take shape.

 

I find evidence for that in Genesis 1:26, where it says, “and God said, let us make man in our image after our likeness.” The definition of the word relational means a desire to pursue relationship or connection with another. And before we think of God pursuing relationship with us, it's actually really critical to look at that verse and note that God is already relational within himself. So, we see evidence in that verse that he's referring to himself in a plural sense.

 

And when we take that alongside other areas of Scripture as well, we see God existing as Trinity, Father, Son and Spirit, three in one, indicating that God does not need humanity for relationship. He only desires humanity for relationship. And one day, actually, when I was teaching that to a group of fifth grade boys last year, I said, God does not need you, but he wants you.

 

One of the fifth grade boys, in all complete sincerity, said, “Aww.” And it was one of the sweetest things I had ever heard because it was this very honest verbal expression of what it felt like to know that we are wanted by the God of the universe. I tell my students, “You know, someone only wants relationship with you when they love you.”

 

And so, while 1 John 4:8 tells us, “that God is love.” It's pretty amazing that way back in the first chapter of Genesis, as we find God creating man and creating woman, He's still incredibly loving that He even desired to create it in the first place. So, I think God being relational is such an important aspect to the who and the why of who He is.

 

Laura Dugger: (7:14 - 7:28) Absolutely. And I really envision this chat being a time when parents can listen alongside their teen or their tween or whenever it's age appropriate. So, will you just give us a glimpse of what you do teach in schools?

 

Janelle Rupp: (7:29 - 13:04) I would be happy too. The very first unit is just the who and the why of God. We focus on 10 characteristics of God, and then we transition to the who and the why of humanity.

 

What do all humans have in common? And we highlight eight characteristics that we all share in common. And then unit two, it's centered on the who and the why of me.

 

And specifically looking at Genesis 1:27, identity means that we're made in the image of God and that we are made male and female. So, Genesis 1:27 says, “So God made man in his own image, in the image of God, he made them male and female, he created them.” So, here we really want to introduce what does it mean to be made in the image of God as a social being, emotional being, a spiritual being, an intellectual being?

 

But also, what does it mean to be made with this physical body, male or female? And so, we introduced the reproductive system with an emphasis on puberty and human growth and development. And within that introduction, in that unit, I do something that's historically not been done in Christian settings, which is that I am teaching both the male and the female reproductive system to both genders.

 

And this next sentence may sound a little odd to some of your listeners. I know my students sometimes giggle when I say it, but I see the glory of God when I study the anatomy of both the male and the female reproductive systems and the intricacies of the design in order to see how they both work perfectly together. To me, it's awe-inspiring.

 

And so, I believe females have every right to see and begin to grasp the design of a male reproductive system. We use really basic anatomical diagrams for that. And then males equally have every right to see and begin to understand the basics of the female reproductive system using a diagram.

 

And my approach to that is clinical and scientific. It's definitely from an anatomy perspective. But I also make sure to take the time to point out some of, again, the beauty of the design.

 

For example, females, when they are born, are born with all the eggs that they will ever, ever have in their ovaries. And this design is super perfect because it means that you and I are not going to be 70 years old and find out that we're unexpectedly pregnant. Eventually, those eggs will run out about in our mid-40s.

 

And I always thank God for that design. It is a good design. Another one is just the female cervix.

 

The female cervix doesn't reach full maturity and protection until our early to mid-20s, where it then provides this wonderful protective barrier between the external and internal anatomy of the female reproductive system. When you explain things like that, I literally watch the kids have what I call light bulb moments, where they begin to see the why behind the design. And it's so important.

 

They've never taken the time to look at that and to hear it. In fact, I often call the reproductive system the forgotten body system. Christian kids in particular, they will get through a whole unit on the body having never talked about the reproductive system.

 

And if they are, then usually they're taught just about their own gender and they're missing that overarching beauty of what God designed. So, I think it's really important to highlight that reproductive system and for both genders. But in Unit 3, we move from the foundation of just gospel identity as made in His image and male and female into then specifically human sexuality.

 

And we use mostly Genesis 2 as we look through this about how God designed marriage and God designed sex, which is super clear in Genesis 2:24 and says, “Therefore, a man shall leave his father and mother and take hold of his wife and they will become one flesh.” And so, God's design for marriage and sex is clear that it's between a man and a woman. And also that that man and woman should follow the order of this verse.

 

First, that they leave and leaving might be dating. It might be courting. It might be pursuing a relationship.

 

However, we set those boundaries for our kids. And then second, that they would take hold and experience the intimacy and blessing of marriage, referencing that connection that God put Adam and Eve in through marriage. And third and last in that order, but that they become one flesh, which is referencing sex.

 

And so, after explaining that very good design, we transition into Genesis 3. And honestly, I love how Moses starts off the chapter here, Genesis 3, by saying, “Now the serpent.” And I always tell the kids that I hear that music in my head of dun, dun, dun. Like you just know that everything is going to change.

 

This good design is going to change and it's not changing for the better. And so, we start then looking at all the distortions that sin has caused within the overall topic of sex. And that means not just looking at premarital sex, but also adultery, pornography, sexting, gender identity, sexual identity.

 

And honestly, that list just keeps on growing every year that I teach. And so, then unit four, that last unit, is what I call the now what unit. In light of taking everything that we know now about gospel identity and human sexuality, I really encourage the kids to start really thinking about how they practically should be living in relationships with someone that they're attracted to and that they want to pursue.

 

And we use the entire Bible to help us answer that question. We actually end that unit with the question and answer panel discussion, using questions that the students have come up with through the course of that week. And it's always a sweet time of conversation focused on, again, gospel identity and human sexuality.

 

Laura Dugger: (13:06 - 13:19) Oh my goodness, that is so amazing and comprehensive. If parents are listening and they're wondering just about that diagram, what age do you recommend showing something like that? How would you respond to that question?

 

Janelle Rupp: (13:20 - 14:08) That's an excellent question. So, we're doing that in sixth grade. You know, it always depends on what your child's exposure and experience is, what their environment is, and their curiosity.

 

I think each child is so different. But in general, sixth grade would be age 11, 12, I think that's 10 to 12 for sure. But even you could probably push it as you're talking about puberty, which is where we interject it, just because it gives reference to what is a period for a girl?

 

Or what are the changes as a male that I'm having inside my body right now? Where's that coming from? So, I think starting as young as eight or nine to 10.

 

No later really than 12, I think would be really, really important.

 

Laura Dugger: (14:09 - 14:16) Thank you. That is helpful. I'm assuming that you're everybody's favorite teacher and that this is their favorite course to take.

 

Janelle Rupp: (14:17 - 14:48) We have a lot of fun. And I love when the kids buy into it. You know, sometimes I'll find that kids come in and they're a little hesitant to talk about this or they feel awkward by it.

 

But I think, you know, coming at it from both a clinical perspective, but also a biblical perspective, doing my best to keep them at ease and have fun as we have these conversations. Eventually, they loosen up over time. And it ends up being a really sweet time to talk about stuff that really, really matters in life.

 

Laura Dugger: (14:48 - 15:05) It does. And you're sharing so much truth. And it is the truth that sets us free.

 

And I can see where that would overcome so much confusion. So, let's even get really practical. When you're teaching these young people about sex, how do you define it?

 

Janelle Rupp: (15:06 - 19:12) This is such a great question. No one's ever actually asked me this. And I think it's so, so important.

 

The CDC definition of sex, it is very complete in its definition. It does a really good job covering what I believe are really important distinctives within that definition. And so, that definition is, quote, “Sex is defined as any part of your body and or specifically your reproductive area coming into contact with another person's body and or specifically their reproductive area.”

 

And one of the key points that I want to point out from this definition includes this phrase, reproductive area. I find my students have no reference for that, and even adults often don't. But simply put, the reproductive area is anything on the outside of the body that covers the reproductive system organs on the inside of the body.

 

So, this area actually extends from the belly button down to the genitals. A lot of times we only reference those genitals, but it actually extends belly button down to the genitals. And so, again, people are often surprised by that.

 

But at the same time, you know, whether it's called the reproductive area or maybe a private area, people do commonly recognize the importance of keeping that area safe and private. I often stick with that phrase, reproductive area, to reference the importance of trust when it comes to keeping things safe and private as a jumping off point to just help the kids see that a person is trustworthy if they keep you safe and if they keep things private. And again, such an important thing that we need to teach our children is that if someone pushes past what feels safe for us or pushes past areas on our body that are private, our children need to know, and we need to know those are not trustworthy people.

 

And furthermore, we should then give our children permission to tell someone that they do trust, hopefully us, but somebody that they do trust, somebody that keeps things safe and private about any person whose words or actions don't prove trustworthy. And as a side note, giving kids appropriate anatomical names is so important for this as well. But if you aren't using those terms and they don't understand it, we're speaking a language that they can't understand and maybe aren't able to convey.

 

And so, I think additionally, as children get older and you continue to reference that reproductive area as an area you keep private, I think it's super important to keep going back to theology and to Scripture. And in Genesis 1 and 2, we don't see anything having to be kept private because there was nothing that needed to be private. And in fact, the end of Genesis 2 says in verse 25, “And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.” My students giggle when we get to that verse because that sounds so foreign to them.

 

But reminding them that again, God's design was so good that there was nothing to be held back. They were fully intimately known by God and fully intimately known by each other and also without sin. But then when sin enters in Genesis 3, as Eve is tempted and enticed by the serpent, Adam is tempted, and enticed by Eve.

 

We see in that instant that sin changes every single thing because it causes Adam and Eve to then feel ashamed before God. They want to hide from God. It causes them to feel ashamed between each other.

 

They want to blame each other and it causes them to lose their sense of identity and purpose. And this is what happens to us, too, when sex and sin become entwined. It causes shame.

 

It causes us to hide. It makes us want to blame others. It causes us to question our identity and question our purpose.

 

But even though sexual sin changes the heart of man, it does not change the heart of God. And so, if our heart's desire is to love God in return for the love He's shown us, then our heart's desire should be to orient our lives around His design for our lives. And I would say even especially orienting our lives around His design for marriage and sex.

 

Laura Dugger: (19:13 - 19:23) Perhaps one of the most asked questions by Christian Singles is, How far is too far? So, how do you respond to that question?

 

Janelle Rupp: (19:24 - 25:50) Yes, I mean, this is the question that inevitably somebody's going to ask in my classes every single year. And no doubt, I mean, I think everyone has asked that question at some point or another in their lives. I certainly did.

 

And I was told that that was the wrong question. And I want to explain why first and then tell you how I answer it. But the reason was because when we look at Scripture in terms of holiness, which is having our heart completely for God versus idolatry, which means having our heart turned to something else, we see over and over and over in Scripture that we can't serve two masters.

 

We can't serve both holiness and idolatry. Matthew 6:24 is a great example. It's talking about the idolatry of money.

 

But it does say that whenever our heart is going after two things, we will either end up being devoted to the one and hate the other or devoted to the other and thus hate the one. And so, in other words, as we apply it to this question, we actually can't just straddle the line of both holiness and idolatry. And a lot of times that's where this heart of motivation of how far is too far is like, what line is the line that I can get to and still be holy?

 

But we really can't try to find and live on that line, because healthy and holy sexuality and sexual immorality doesn't exist. It is one or it is the other. And so, that's an important truth of Scripture.

 

I'm always in complete agreement with everything that I just said. But I also recognize that the Bible is really, really clear on how to give us direction in terms of setting boundaries and learning how to escape and endure temptation rather than to be enticed by it. And so, I teach my students a method to answer this question using an acronym called GRAY, G-R-A-Y, just to help them think biblically and critically about this question.

 

And actually it can be applied to any what I call the gray areas of life where Scripture may not specifically be very black and white about what we can and can't do. For example, another easy gray area topic within this same kind of umbrella idea would be dating. We aren't specifically told if we're to encourage our kids towards dating or courting or maybe arrange marriages.

 

Right. And yet I believe that there's four specific steps that we can use to determine the heart of God for our lives when it comes to gray areas of life. And so, the G in gray stands for go to God and it refers to prayer.

 

James 1:5 encourages believers to ask God for wisdom. It says, “He will give it generously to anyone who asks.” And I think praying for wisdom is such a foundational place to start on any topic, but specifically this one.

 

And then the R in the acronym stands for read the word. I always encourage my students and I would encourage parents as well, actively study the word of God, finding verses that give direction for decision making on this question. How far is too far?

 

One that I think jumped out at me is First Corinthians 10:23. As it's again, speaking of idolatry of the heart and it says, “all things are lawful, but not all things are helpful. All things are lawful. I can do all things, but not all things are building up. And so, let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor.”

 

So, when you apply that verse to this question of how far is too far, you begin to see that the question isn't so much is kissing OK, is anything done with our clothes on OK? But the question is more what behavior is helpful for me as I try to honor Christ with my body? What behavior builds up my desire to honor Christ with my life and or what behavior seeks to honor the person that I'm with?

 

And so, again, I think reading scripture can help us be able to know how to reframe that question and create boundaries. And then the A in gray stands for ask for advice. And here I encourage teens to seek out someone who is doing relationships well.

 

In other words, is there a couple that they admire, someone older than them that they admire, maybe a friend or sibling or a friend of a sibling, a teacher, a parent, a youth group leader? I found in my own life that God often gives wisdom through people like that. And actually, in the last 10 years, as I've been teaching this type of material, I found that asking couples that I respect this very same question.

 

How did you answer? How far is too far? It brings some of the best responses and encouragement that then I can share with my students to help them learn and grow.

 

So, I think asking for advice is a vital part of this. And then lastly, the Y stands for yield. It is the last step.

 

And yet it's such an important part of answering this question. Yield just simply means to wait. And you and I both know this generation does not like to wait.

 

Instinct gratification is their thing. And yet teaching them that there's so much value in yielding when we don't have clear answers to critical questions like this. So, I actually love to literally walk this out in front of the classroom.

 

I will demonstrate how, when I yield, I hold back on decisions such as how far is too far. I am always allowing myself room to continue to walk forward as I feel more certainty over the answer or I feel more led with the wisdom that God is continuing to give. However, if I walk forward without clarity, if I'm pushing boundaries that are perhaps lawful, I can.

 

But they're not to my benefit, not to my partner's benefit. Then it's very realistic that I am going to push farther than I am able to handle. It's going to bring harm to the relationship that I am in.

 

And I can't ever go back. The truth is that the line between being enticed by sin versus escaping and enduring the temptation to turn from sin. It's a thin line.

 

And so, helping teenagers with these four steps, I think just think more critically about where to set those boundaries is important. And then I do usually go on to encourage students to be really specific in writing out those boundaries. I'm a big fan that writing is remembering.

 

It stores in our long-term memory. And then to even share those boundaries in order to have accountability with them.

 

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So, now, it's time to nourish, restore, and glow. This next question may feel a little bit scary to ask because sometimes ignorance truly is bliss. But I think this is really helpful having you share statistics.

 

So, what are some statistics you think we need to be aware of to educate us on sexuality and youth in America right now?

 

Janelle Rupp: (27:49 - 29:55) Yes, you know, this is constantly changing. And so, I do look for these on the regular. And so, the ones I'm currently kind of using as I educate this year, the average age of first pornography exposure is currently 11 years old.

 

And 1 out of every 10 visitors to porn sites are actually under the age of 10. And 22% of those are regular visitors to those sites. It's not that they're just there once.

 

They're regular visitors. When you talk about that next age group, 11 to 17-year-olds, 53% of them are accessing pornography. In addition, 1 out of every 14 are receiving sexually explicit material through social media, through texting.

 

And 1 out of every 17 are sending it, which is an interesting thing. I always tell my students that means that as people are receiving it, they're sending it to more than one person. And so, you know, somehow we could think that it's a conversation maybe staying between two people.

 

And almost in every case, that is not the reality. 41% of teens are engaging in sexual behavior and oral sex and vaginal sex and anal sex and what I call outer course. Every 11 minutes, CPS finds evidence of sexual abuse claims.

 

And 2 out of every 3 of those are age 12 to 17 years old. And then lastly, and this is kind of newer from a research study that is an important one, but identifying as LGBTQ+, has actually risen in teens on average by 4% in the last 5 years. Girls being higher than boys.

 

Girls averaging about 5% increase and boys at 3%. And I think, you know, you give those 9 quick statistics, and I'll be honest, you know, even every time I have to say them, I get that sinking feeling in my stomach. It takes a lot to shock me after 10 years of working with teens on this topic.

 

But it never feels good to say those out loud. I think it just reflects such brokenness on behalf of our culture's view of sex and sexuality.

 

Laura Dugger: (29:57 - 30:09) Wow, that is sobering. And if that reality feels alarming or overwhelming to a parent listening, then how would you advise them to educate their son or daughter?

 

Janelle Rupp: (30:10 - 33:09) Yeah, I think the scariest thing is when we allow those feelings that we're having to really just cripple us and our ability to parent our children through them. I had a mom come up last year, and she said, I'm just really exhausted by it all. I'm tired of checking up on my kid.

 

And, you know, as a mom of teenagers, I hear that. I resonate with that. But I think we need to fight through those feelings and encourage each other to fight through those feelings in order to parent with intention and godliness when it comes to these subjects.

 

I developed this Remember Who's You Are curriculum for students, but I 100% believe that parents are to be the first go-to for our kids on these topics, whether they feel like they have all the answers or not. It's really not the role of the school, nor of the church, nor of the youth pastor. It is primarily and foundationally the role of parents, with ideally then the school and the church, you know, locking arms with parents, coming alongside with a similar message.

 

And so, when it comes to equipping parents, which is something I feel strongly about as well, in order to have these ongoing conversations, I break down educating parents with three regular statements to help them kind of combat those feelings of overwhelmed or anxiousness when it comes to these topics. And the first regular statement would be to regularly educate yourself. We can't teach what we don't know.

 

And so, parents need to have answers to questions, and I'm going to give a series of questions here that I think need to be answered as examples, but there's certainly more. But questions like, what is God's design? Again, what is the reproductive area?

 

What does sexting mean? What does sending nudes mean? Because that's becoming actually a more popular phrase right now than using the phrase sexting.

 

Why is not porn good for our brains if it actually keeps us from not having sex outside of God's design? That's a question I've been asked. And a follow-up to that, what does the Bible say about masturbation?

 

How does a condom work? I've been asked that one. What is the most popular sexual behavior among teens?

 

Those are some toughies. You don't just kind of like pop out an answer to that without dedicating some time to researching those answers. I don't think that this needs to be an overwhelming amount of time.

 

In fact, I actually just encourage parents to set aside 15 to 20 minutes once a week, maybe even once every other week, but just put it on the calendar so that you really devote yourself to that time. You know, I think we dedicate ourselves as parents to things we care about. And I don't mean to say this harshly, but many moms spend much more time exercising than they do in their Bibles and figuring out answers to these questions and apologetic type answers.

 

And parents, you know, we spend a lot of time talking to our kids about sports and grades. And yet these are topics that have lasting relational impacts for their lives, not just in our family, but in their family to come. And so, we have to be diligent to set aside time and regularly educate ourselves.

 

Laura Dugger: (33:09 - 33:38) Janelle, I love all of this that you're saying. And I just want to pause on this first step of educating ourselves as the adults and as the parents. So, listening to something like this, hopefully people feel encouraged already doing a great job educating yourself.

 

And so, let's just answer a couple of those questions because it can be hard to know where do I go to find out these answers. I'm careful to Google this because something may pop up that I don't want to see.

 

Janelle Rupp: (33:38 - 33:38) Right.

 

Laura Dugger: (33:38 - 33:46) So, let's go with two of them. One of them you said is what is the most popular sexual behavior among teens right now?

 

Janelle Rupp: (33:47 - 34:46) Yeah, I think that this one is a little bit shocking for parents. And they often are unaware of where their teens are at as they are pushing boundaries on sexual behavior. You know, when I was growing up, oral sex became, and that's mouth to genitals, but that became a really popular sexual behavior.

 

And I remember hearing people say, well, that makes me feel a virgin because I now have not had vaginal sex. And so, again, just continuing to push these boundaries. So, now today's teenagers are past oral sex.

 

That's become just something that's normal and acceptable. And the most popular sexual behavior right now that you'll actually they will talk about and do would be anal sex right now, which is the anal area, which is obviously I always point this out, not actually the reproductive system, but in fact, the expiratory or the end of the digestive system. But that is the most popular sexual behavior among teens currently.

 

Laura Dugger: (34:47 - 35:14) That is really helpful to hear. And even years ago, when I was practicing as a marriage and family therapist, something that we learned was that the rise in pornography exposure was also corresponding or correlating with this rise in pressure for women to engage in anal sex. And that was a lot of times where it was coming from.

 

I'm assuming very similar with teens.

 

Janelle Rupp: (35:15 - 35:59) Yes, absolutely. And as our culture continues to kind of push the envelope on trying to get teenagers and adults to accept pornography is a natural part of human sexuality. I think we will just continue to see that behavior pushed more and more and more just among teens and relationships in general, which is really devastating.

 

I think of so many of these behaviors that are very degrading, particularly to women, but even to men. And again, that women, that girls would be thinking that that is considered an acceptable part of a relationship is such a tragedy, really. And again, just so reflective of the brokenness of our culture.

 

Laura Dugger: (36:00 - 36:19) And you bring up another question I want to follow up with, Ben, because porn is so destructive for a lifetime. But how do you answer that question if parents want to educate themselves of somebody making an argument of why not pornography if it keeps them from engaging in penetrative sex?

 

Janelle Rupp: (36:20 - 38:18) Yeah, so, there's some excellent websites that you can find that talk about the damaging effects of pornography. And I found, you know, good resources. Anyone's welcome to email me.

 

I'll include that later. But to get some of those resources. But it really does change and alter, actually, the connections that are created in the brain.

 

And one of the, I think, more interesting studies on pornography in the brain, as they looked at men who were watching and engaging in pornography, it would continually light up an area of the brain and stimulate it, which is an area of the brain that is usually lit and stimulated when a man would use power tools. And that's concerning on, I think, a couple of levels. One, that is degrading.

 

And again, this human made in the image of God to something that is to be just used. Right. And then second, anytime we engage in pornography, we are we're engaging more with a screen than a person.

 

And so, that intimacy level, that is something that's so precious about sex. You know, sex isn't just for making babies. It isn't just for this intimate connection.

 

It isn't just for pleasure. But it is to be wholly represented, all three of those when we look at God's design. But when we engage with pornography, we're completely reducing it down to one person's pleasure, one person's use.

 

And so, again, those connections that are supposed to exist between people now exist between a person and their screen. And you'll see across the board, these are people who easily get addicted. It's meant to be addicted, experience increased levels of depression, anxiety, suicide.

 

Grades go down for teenagers. They lose friends. So much research showing the devastating impact of pornography.

 

Laura Dugger: (38:19 - 38:32) That is really helpful. Thank you for sharing that. And back to that greater question.

So, when you're advising parents to educate themselves, that's the first step. What's the next step in the process?

 

Janelle Rupp: (38:33 - 41:29) So, the second step that I recommend is to regularly to enter in. We aren't called to be our kids' best friends. We're called to step into their lives.

 

And that means stepping into friendships and relationships. It actually means stepping into their phone. You know, the amount of parents that tell me, I feel really bad because it's their phone.

 

And yet it's something that the parent is paying for, right? And so, that is a part of our lives, too. Theirs and ours.

 

But stepping into social media pages, their schools, their activities. And I think we don't have to be creepy about it. And that's what I think parents most, they're like, I don't want to creep my kid out or make them pull away.

 

I just think we have to be really intentional beforehand that we're developing this relationship of trust and communication. So, Josh McDowell has said rules without relationship equal rebellion. And so, the flip side of that is that when I have rules where I'm entering in and I have relationships where I'm entering in, that will equal trust.

 

And so, we need to keep entering in because we want to keep earning their trust. It goes both ways. We want that trust and communication.

 

So, entering in out of a desire for relationship, but also entering in with boundaries and rules for our kids in order to continue to build that trust between us. And then the third regularly statement is to regularly extend grace to yourself. Guilt and shame cannot go away without grace.

 

And a lot of us live with guilt and shame when it comes to these subjects. I often hear that that's one of the key reasons that parents will hesitate to talk to their child. They'll say to me, I don't want them to ask me about what I did.

 

And the only remedy for shame is grace. It's why God's plan to extend grace in sending Jesus. It's the best plan for our world because we're literally drowning in guilt and shame over these subjects.

 

And so, as parents, we first have to learn and work through accepting grace for ourselves. But for the purpose of extending it to others, it's very, very hard to extend grace when we haven't accepted it ourselves. And so, I think it starts with us.

 

And then again, it extends out to our kids. My husband and I were working through something that was happening with our teenagers this year. And I thought it was so profound.

 

As he said this statement, by God's grace, our kids will never get caught up in it. But it's also that same grace that will provide a way for our kids to get out of it. And so, we need to remember God's grace is greater than all of our sins.

 

And we can rest in that even if we don't do everything perfectly as a parent. Even if we forget to answer one of the questions. Even if our kids choose a path that is different than what we had taught them.

 

God's grace is greater than all of our sins.

 

Laura Dugger: (41:30 - 43:53) And I don't think we can hear that enough. So, thank you for that reminder.

 

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Well, Janelle, I think that you're so wise to teach parents that there's obviously no formula, and that's why it's so vitally important to keep in step with the spirit as we have these conversations with our children. But also, I'm sure that you've learned some wise and age-appropriate guidelines for teaching our kids about sex and sexuality.

 

So, will you share those with us for the different age ranges?

 

Janelle Rupp: (43:55 - 50:10) Yes, I think you're exactly right. There isn't a set formula because, again, as I mentioned before, every kid is different. Every experience and exposure is different.

 

But there are some general guidelines in order to, again, have these regular conversations with our kids. So, beginning ages kind of three to seven, I think focusing on what it means to be made in God's image, what it means to have a male part versus female part, how that kind of defines each gender. And understanding also what is private and safe within that is important.

 

So, one of the things that I did with my kids is very early on, as we were bathing in those ages, we would say, Thank you, God, for our fingers and our noses, and thank you, God, for our toes, and say, Thank you, God, for a penis because you're a boy, and thank you, God, for a vagina because you're a girl, and thank you for parts that we can't see inside of us. And I would name some of those parts as well, because I think it just helps them start recognizing, again, the beauty of what it means to be created by God. And also highlighting safe pictures and unsafe pictures, safe touch and unsafe touch, and stuff that I touched on before.

 

I think that's important as well. But then I personally believe this is one of the best ages to begin forming a framework on the sanctity of human life, that all life is created by God and for God in the image of God. And therefore, all life should be treated with dignity, respect, and love, regardless of size, regardless of gender, regardless of skin color, regardless of neediness or challenges.

 

It's a really natural and important tie-in to the subject at this age. And then when you get into that next age, age 8 to 10, I kind of think of it a little bit like preteen. Just continuing on with that conversation but bringing up this word puberty.

 

And kids always look terrified when I say that word. And I always tell them, then puberty is not a scary word. And I'm sorry that you have this vision that it is.

 

But puberty really is just human growth and development that make us male and make us female. And so, I think teaching our kids not to be even afraid of that word. There are parts that we need to keep private.

 

And yes, we don't need to talk about that with everybody. But these are not wrong or bad parts. They're parts that are created by God for God.

 

And God is a good God. And God is a sovereign God. And so, He created it for our good with us in mind.

 

And so, just continuing to engage and encourage our kids on those ideas at age 10. And then 10 to 12, and some educators would say sex should be introduced by age 10. I found that based on just, again, the exposure that my kids had, we had this type of a conversation as they headed into more age 11.

 

I think it for sure should be talked about before age 12. But at that point, you want to make sure you're including just a framework on what biblical sex and marriage is and what it's purposed for. Again, purpose for procreation, making babies, purpose for intimacy, even purpose for pleasure.

 

Listen, no 10 to 12-year-old is going to understand that part yet, which is fine because you're going to revisit it later when they're kids. This is a regular thing, right? But you want them to hear it from you.

 

You want them to hear it from you first so they understand that you are trustworthy. And so, they should be taught that sex is best seen in that context of marriage. One man, one woman that have left their father and mother, they've taken hold of each other in marriage.

 

And as a result, then a parent and actually ideally both parents, mom and dad, are able to help a child understand that framework and also recognize basic deviations outside of that framework. Not just that sex before marriage is outside, but also sex outside of marriage, the sexual and gender identity confusion. Anything that's falling outside of God's design for marriage and sex is a deviation from what he designed.

 

And then in that kind of 13 and older, recommendations that I make is always that you begin to establish a really good framework on how to have God-honoring relationships with someone of the opposite gender. I actually highly recommend Ephesians chapter 5 as you make this plan with your child. And a couple key points that it talks about within that chapter is that we treat those in the faith, those that share our common belief in Jesus Christ as brothers and sisters in Christ, in friendship and in a possible relationship, but one that has a lot of purpose and a plan in place.

 

But then we treat those who are not sharing our faith with love, but yet an understanding that those aren't relationships that I can pursue because I can't have an expectation that they are going to bring me closer to Christ, whereas the other should. And so, as parents within that, again, 13 and older category, you really need to start paying very much attention and entering in into those relationships that they have with their friends and their peers, because this is the second biggest impact maker on their decision-making next to you. Proverbs 13:20 says, “He who walks with the wise will be wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.”

 

I really believe in parents. If you need to change up their environment in order to help them form more God-honoring relationships in step with that Ephesians 5, we should not be afraid to do so. And again, continuing to expand on those other frameworks before, because regular conversations, but you're just getting into greater detail, more fine-tuning.

 

And I actually think at this age, too, you're digging deep into the truth of Scripture with your child. So, you let them come alongside you as you're learning how to answer these questions so that they can continue to refine who they are in Christ and to refine how to keep accountable with the Word of God and to refine how to set boundaries and how to navigate relationships in what I call purposeful dating versus purposeless dating. And purposeful dating, really just the overarching idea there is just that in the end, if it does end, that there may be sadness, but that there is also learning that comes so that I am lessening the brokenness and damage that may come as a result as well.

 

Laura Dugger: (50:11 - 50:30) And I love how also in your teaching, you lay out specific guidelines that don't fit within an age category, but they're more so for children who are at cell phone age or where they have unattended internet use. So, will you share some of those guidelines with us now, too?

 

Janelle Rupp: (50:31 - 54:54) Yes, for sure. You know, I always say when you introduce a cell phone to your child, especially one that has internet included with that phone, it does change a little of those guidelines that I just mentioned in that you need to increase the speed and the ages or decrease the ages, technically, in which you are discussing these things. Just because you're giving them a lot of access to things that will speak an opposite message from what you would be saying.

 

And so, when I encourage parents to look at a couple things as they're making the decisions about when to give a cell phone, I think you're specifically looking at does your child understand what it means to be indwelled by the Holy Spirit? And are they showing evidence of the fruits of his work in their lives? In other words, do I see evidence of the Spirit in the life of my child?

 

And so, that means does he or she recognize self-control? They know when they have it and they know when they don't. Do they recognize how to be a peacemaker?

 

Do they recognize how to be loving in what they say and what they do? Do they recognize and show faithfulness, kindness, gentleness, joy, patience, all of those fruits of the Spirit? And do they recognize and show that not just in person with someone, but even behind the screen when they don't see that person face to face?

 

And listen, no parent is going to say, oh, yeah, 100% of the time my kid is showing evidence of the fruits of the Spirit. But if I can honestly say yes, my child is showing that he is growing in evidence of that. And then you decide this is the age for him to have a phone.

 

Most educators, I'll just be super clear, most educators that work with teens, they recommend an age of anywhere from 13 to 15. But when you do give that, those same adults that work with those teens will also say the following, that a device should not be allowed in a private room or a private place. There should be a family charging place.

 

And we are on phones when we are around other people. And then that you should also have no phone zones for us. The dinner table is one of our very most important ones so that we are learning how to, again, continue to engage in conversation with one another without our phones, which is growing the relationship building that we want to grow.

 

And so, we hold to those boundaries. Understanding that an all access, unmonitored pass to the Internet does break down identity. It does work against.

 

And there's so much evidence to this. You know, even five years ago, I was less inclined to say hard and fast rules on the use of cell phones for teens. However, more and more and more and more, we continue to see research study after research study.

 

There's documentaries. Now there's reports about the dangers of the unlimited, unmonitored access to screens and how it hurts our kids emotionally, intellectually, socially, spiritually and even physically. I mean, I think of less sleep.

 

Right. Something that I've learned over these 10 years is that no kid stumbles into pornography with the use of their phone on purpose. So, so, so many times the first time is an accident and it happens again because that Internet use is unmonitored.

 

And so, here's another hard truth as well. It often also happens because someone else in the house or the family may be viewing pornography and it's in that browser history or it's in the logarithm of the device they're using. And so, understanding what drives that first use, but then the ramifications of that first look.

 

So, even if it's an inadvertent look, the hook to pornography is so addicting. And again, we talked about the damaging effects on our brains, our emotions and our relationship. So, I just think monitoring phones and Internet access is, yes, exhausting.

 

I mean, I feel it. But at the same time, the risk is so great that there's no way that we can stop while they are in our home. Because the worry and the regret of, oh, I should have done X, Y, Z, I think outweighs any type of temporary exhaustion for me in my day to have to check and monitor phone use.

 

Laura Dugger: (54:55 - 55:21) That's such a good point. It's going to cost us energy on one side or the other. But that is a wise choice to go with the hard choice first and hopefully more of an easier or more fruitful path.

 

When you reflect on our conversation so far, what hope do we all have for the gospel of grace impacting us specifically as it relates to our sexuality?

 

Janelle Rupp: (55:23 - 58:58) When I hear that question, I really love it. I instantly think shame is a result of sin, connecting that to the grace that is shown from our Creator and our Redeemer. And all of that, again, is really on display in Genesis 3.

 

And so, I want to take us there as I answer that question. I tell my students shame has two definitions. There is shame as a verb to shame someone.

 

And then there is shame as a noun to feel shame as a result of something that we have done wrong. Shame as a verb is something we never want to do. That's not a good thing, right?

 

But shame as a noun is actually a God-given gift that is meant to bring us back into relationship with God. And you look at how Adam and Eve in Genesis 3. It makes me chuckle, honestly, because as they feel the shame of their sin, their next step is to create garments to cover themselves.

 

And their shame was so great, but they went ahead and put these fig leaves on top of their bodies, these parts that now have to be private because of shame. And I just think to myself, those fig leaves had to have been so insufficient. We do this too, though.

 

We come up with ways to clothe ourselves to cover up the shame that we feel. It might be past sexual sin. It might be present sexual sin.

 

And we try our best to hide it. We try our best to make ourselves look presentable with our covering so that people won't see our sin and see our shame. I mean, all of that is that feeling that comes from that feeling of shame as a result of sin.

 

But what's beautiful when we look at Genesis 3, when Adam finally comes clean about his sin and shame. And I will say, listen, he doesn't do it perfectly because God has to literally say, where are you? Knowing where he is, but like basically saying, Adam, come out, come clean, right?

 

But as Adam does come clean about his sin and the shame that he's feeling, right? What does God do? God covers Adam and Eve with garments that He provides and He makes from the very first shedding of blood that we see recorded in Scripture.

 

And I'm doing it now. I weep every single time that I talk about this part, because God knows how to deal with shame so much better than we do. He knows how to deal with our shame in a way and cover us in a way that is a once for always.

 

And it's Genesis 3 is just a beautiful foreshadowing of how Christ is going to be sent. And there he comes in Matthew, right? To cover shame forever.

 

And so, as we remember that Jesus spilled his blood on a cross and then resurrected, conquering death and sin and the grave. We also get covered by that blood so that we no longer have to hide. We no longer have to feel that shame.

 

And we can stand, Romans 8 says, without condemnation. “Therefore, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ,” because Christ has covered us with garments completely and perfectly for forever. And so, our hope in this for our own sin, our past sin, any present sin, any future sin, and our hope for any sin that may rise up out of the heart of our child.

 

It's in the gospel that the gracious and loving covering that God gives us through Jesus is complete, making us right before God for all time.

 

Laura Dugger: (58:58 - 1:00:05) I love that so much, Janelle. And it makes me think of, I can't remember the research study, but they tracked people's brains when they were feeling like shame or regret or guilt. And found that sometimes people who struggle with anxious thoughts, that they have an over-functioning part of their brain where they can have those feelings of shame, sometimes when they haven't done anything shameful.

 

So, there's almost like a real guilt or a false guilt. And all of this conversation brings me to 2 Corinthians 7:10, where God addressed that first, because in the Bible it says, “Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.” And so, if we're going like even a level deeper to tease out that shame, sometimes we've felt that before.

 

Maybe, let's say, if something was done to us, and that's not the same shame that requires repentance, which is the godly sorrow. So, does that make sense?

 

Janelle Rupp: (1:00:05 - 1:00:28) Yes, exactly. That's exactly my point. And getting the kids to understand the difference between those shames but then seeing shame as not something that I have to push against.

 

Because if it is that godly shame that comes after me making a wrong choice, that is that shame to bring me closer to God in and through repentance. And again, that's a beautiful thing.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:00:29 - 1:00:39) It is, and it leads to freedom, which we may not think of in the moment, but that confession and bringing something to the light, that that is the best way to live.

 

Janelle Rupp: (1:00:39 - 1:00:40) Exactly.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:00:40 - 1:00:48) Are there any other important takeaways that you want parents and their children to be aware of as it applies to sex and sexuality?

 

Janelle Rupp: (1:00:49 - 1:02:44) Yes, you know, I think of two things here. The first being that, you know, sexual sin is really just one of many sins that Christ covers that he died for. You know, the blood of Christ covers the adulterer just as much as it covers the gossiper.

 

It covers the pregnant teenager and her boyfriend just as much as it covers you and I. And I think in the past, the church has overemphasized this sin and underemphasized others. But yet on the flip side, I mean, I think we really can't deny these are sins.

 

And even when we look at Scripture, it doesn't deny this. These are sins that carry a greater consequence and potential for enticing us towards, again, more habitual, ongoing sin in ways that just affect us deeper than other sins, which is why 1 Corinthians 6:18 says “Flee from sexual immorality.” And I'm going to pause there for just a second, because the Greek word for sexual immorality is the word pornea.

 

And you and I can't hear the word pornea without immediately thinking of porn. And so, I think it's fascinating that the root word for pornography is literally translated as sexual immorality. It's really an important thing.

 

But 1 Corinthians 6:18, again, it starts saying “Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside of the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.” And this means that sexual sin at its root is a problem of identity, which is, again, why you have to link that human sexuality with gospel identity.

 

Our aim cannot be for our children to make it to marriage having never had sex or never getting pregnant. To me, that's a low fruit. That is a low aim.

 

Our aim needs to be raising children with a gospel identity that is rooted in the creative and redemptive work of Jesus Christ and seeing the outgrowth from there.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:02:44 - 1:02:56) Wow. Well said. And if we boil all of this down, what is just one action step that you first recommend for anyone who finishes this message today?

 

Janelle Rupp: (1:02:57 - 1:04:19) Yeah, I'm going to give you a three-in-one just tying back to those three key regularly statements. One of the primary resources that I love to recommend in terms of educating ourselves is for parents to go to axis.org. That is A-X-I-S dot org, and sign up to receive their free Culture Translator weekly newsletter. And that will be sent to your email on a weekly basis for free.

 

And it gives a whole rundown of what's been happening in teen culture for that week. And just by simply opening up your email, you're going to start educating yourself. And they also have a host of other excellent resources and podcasts and a ton of material on their website that I would recommend.

 

But that's just one little step. And then for the enter in, I would recommend scheduling a date now. Put it on your calendar.

 

Find a time to take your child on a shopping date, an ice cream date, so that you can begin to enter into their lives and keep building that relationship with them. And then lastly, between now and that date, just open up God's Word. Reflect on the grace of God.

 

Let it wash over your heart. Let it wash over your mind. Get engaged with worship.

 

All of those will equip you well to do that hard work of entering in with your child when you meet them for that date.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:04:20 - 1:04:29) I've loved this chat so much. And if anybody's wondering about a follow-up place, where would you direct them to learn more from your teaching?

 

Janelle Rupp: (1:04:30 - 1:04:56) Well, right now, I can be reached by email. And that email is jrupp.rememberwhoseyouare@gmail.com which is the name of the curriculum.

 

As my program keeps growing, I do hope to have more resources available online. But for now, that's the best way to reach out to me.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:04:57 - 1:05:14) Wonderful. Thank you for sharing that. We will put it in the show notes for today's episode.

 

And Janelle, you're aware we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Janelle Rupp: (1:05:15 - 1:06:34) This is always one of my favorite questions to listen to on your podcast because I love hearing what everyone says. But I think my savvy sauce, when I look back over growth in my own life, is what I often reference, learning a high view of God. And that came out for me of intentionally learning at the outset how to study the Bible in a way that elevates who God is.

 

And I give a lot of credit to Jen Wilkins' books and would highly recommend those, specifically one called Women of the Word, which helped me to realize that the first question I need to seek out when I am studying my Bible is, what is this telling me about God? So, what started out as a way to study scripture just started infiltrating into the way that I live. And so, consistently asking myself the question, how can I make much of God and show a high view of who God is as I'm going through this circumstance with my family?

 

Or how can I show off this high view of who God is as I'm encouraging a friend through maybe a crisis or maybe just through something good? Paul says, you know, more of Christ, less of me. And I'm not perfect at remembering this all the time, but Lord willing, I will keep growing and continue to point others to a high view of God more and more and more.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:06:35 - 1:07:08) Love that. And Janelle, I think that it's going to be apparent that people can hear your smile throughout this conversation today. And I've really appreciated your motivational approach, and it's been inspiring.

 

And you're inspiring us to lean into our relationship with our children and with God, our designer, and have these meaningful conversations for everyone's betterment. And just knowing you, your devotion to your family is so apparent. And I just want to say thank you for being my guest today.

 

Janelle Rupp: (1:07:10 - 1:07:11) Thanks, Laura. It's been a privilege.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:07:12 - 1:10:55) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Holistic Family Wellness Plan Part Two with Emily Johnson (Episode 276)

Galatians 5:22-23 NLT "But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things!"

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Hi, I'm Emily Johnson. I am a homeschool mama of two beautiful kiddos, married to my high school sweetheart, and the owner of Gracious Healing, a online nutritional practice that works with families to get to the root of their health issues with a holistic view and approach. I deeply love Jesus and pursue Him in all that I do, including health.  After walking through decades of undiagnosed health issues, I was lead to the world of functional medicine and eventually into the holistic health world. After finding support for my body and that of my kids (who have been on their own health journeys) I was able to pursue further education and began working with clients on a 1:1 basis, to help them find the hope and health that I have found.

 

Emily's Website

 

Questions and Topics We Cover:

1. Another topic of health is pursuing the opposite of isolation, which is relationships. What does friendship do to us, even at a hormonal or bio-physical level?
2. Will you share all your wisdom on the topic of nutrition?
3. What other health topics have we not yet covered that you want to mention as we get started?

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Sam Leman Eureka

 

Other Episodes Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce:

254 Raising Healthy Children with Dr. Charles Fay

 

Additional Savvy Sauce Episodes Related to Healthy Living:

3. Being intentional with our health, finances, and relationships with business leader, writer, and speaker, Elizabeth Dixon

14. Simple Changes for Healthier Living with Chick-fil-A Wellness Experts, Vasu Thorpe and Leslie Sexton

23. Nurturing Friendships With Harvard Graduate, Jackie Coleman

25. Leadership Principles and Practices with Former NFL Player, J Leman

81. Sacred Rest with Doctor, Wife, Mother, and Author, Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith

251. Wintering and Embracing Holy Hygge with Jamie Erickson

256. Gut Health, Allergies, Inflammation and Proactive Solutions with Emily Macleod-Wolfe

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:09)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:40) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka.

 

Owned and operated by the Burchie family, Sam Leman and Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at LemanGM.com.

 

As I mentioned last time, my amazing guest, Emily Johnson, had so much goodness to share that we decided to split this episode into two parts, so I'm going to make sure that you first go back to part one before you listen to this episode today.

 

But I'm looking forward now to continuing the chat about nutritional benefits and soul benefits and relational benefits in our health and the health in our children with my returning guest, Emily Johnson. Another topic that's health-related is pursuing the opposite of isolation, which is relationships. So, Emily, what does friendship do to us or do to our children, even at hormonal levels and biophysical levels?

 

Emily Johnson: (1:40 - 8:39) Yeah, yeah. So, you know, when I was really, really, really sick, from a pretty young age on, and then I had kids really young, and so my kids had some health issues. I was sick. I felt so isolated, and I really, really, really was discouraged when people would speak about community.

 

You have to be in community, right? And all the sermons and different things, books, these great books are like, you have to be in community, and I'm like, I don't know how to do that with where I'm at. I don't have, I barely have capacity, right, to like feed my children and like get out of bed most days.

 

How in the world am I supposed to like go find community? And so, I think that, one, I always go back to, for those people who do struggle, and they are in a season where community is tough, right? I always, I love the saying, where the ideal lacks, grace abounds, and there's something beautiful that happens within that, right?

 

So just to speak to that, because I feel like so many women I walk with have had seasons in their life, or whether it's health-related, or their kids, or just there, you know. Mom home with four young kids, and they just don't have capacity, or their single mom with four kids, and they're working full-time. Right, they just don't have great capacity for community. I always want to plug that reminder in that there are seasons, and God's grace always abounds beyond what is ideal. But then we take it too ideal, right?

 

And we say, what does that actually look like? And we were made for community, right? We see all the fun videos of the little kids who are like the babies who were in the womb together, right?

 

And you come out, and they're still like touching, right? We were made for connection. There's something really, really amazing that happens from a cellular level.

 

When we are, when we are hugged, right, you see some of those neurosciences of like, you need to hug for six seconds a day, because it'll increase your endorphins, you know, and so there's this beautiful thing. There is, in certain science communities, there is a thing called biofield, right? And so it's kind of this idea that from six feet out from me in any direction, I kind of have this like space, like there's a spatial awareness that most of us have about six feet like outside of our bodies.

 

And when you kind of like, you know, when you're like somebody walks up behind you, and you just know somebody's behind you, even though you haven't turned around or heard them necessarily, but there's just this awareness that they're there. And that is just, I think, so ingrained in who we are to be in community, because we actually have been created not for isolation, but we've been created even with this biofilm biofield idea that we actually get to when people are around us, right, there's an energy that happens, right? When my kid is sick, there's like this energy transfer that happens when my kiddo is sick, and their energy is low, their overall body is just depleted, right?

 

When I hold them and touch them, there's actually can be like this cool transfer that happens from an electrical perspective that actually boosts them back up, right? Why do we hold babies skin on skin? Because there is that super, super crucial need for connection.

 

One of my favorite studies I always refer to is a heart map study, where they took babies and mom, and they hooked mom and baby up to like heart monitors. They had mom just kind of like go through her natural day. Right, really smiley, happy, and they kind of watch baby match mom's heartbeat completely like in sync. And then they said, “Okay mom, like start running, like don't change your facial expression or your tone, but start running through all the like scary things that you have going on, right, and all the worries and fears and all the things.”

 

And they watch mom's heart rate level start coming up, and then they watch baby's heart rate level start coming up, right? Like we were just designed from the womb to connect with people. Then they found those who they ran some studies on who had moms who were super depressed, right? They weren't in connection.

 

They had whatever lives, whatever circumstances led to this, those kiddos didn't have the kind of intense one-on-one connection, maybe that another kid did. And just watching that those kids had a harder time empathizing and being around other people, right? So, like this idea that from the womb we were designed to be connected to one another, that there is something ingrained in our soul, right?

 

That the Lord put there that deeply, we deeply want community, but beyond community we want to be known and seen and loved, right? And obviously the ultimate desire is to be known and seen and loved by God the Father, but at a lesser level like we have been created to see that in one another and champion one another and encourage one another, right? One of my favorite Bible stories is when Moses is holding his hands up, right?

 

And as long as his arms are up, the Israelites are winning, but the minute his arm starts to fall, and then you know you have Aaron and her have to come lift his arms up, and he sits down and they're the ones holding his arms. And I just think that is such a picture of when we have this vision of what God's called us to, and kind of whether that be a mom or a specific vocation or a specific ministry, when we have been called as women to do that, but yet there's these seasons where we're like we're still trying really hard to do that, but I'm so wiped out and tired, right? You need those people around you who are going to go hold your arms up so that the battle doesn't break.

 

The battle is not going to stop whether you drop your arms or not, it's still going to keep going. And so, when we look at that from just again, like a metabolic perspective, we see that heart rates come down, right? We see someone super, super anxious in isolation, they go into a community where they feel seen and known and loved, and their body comes into this beautiful, restful, parasympathetic state, right?

 

I would say a caveat to that is a little bit of picking your community well, because I think that the opposite is true. You go into a community where everyone's naggy and negative and discouraging, and you will walk away feeling gross and weary and tired, right? And it doesn't necessarily...

 

Good community is what again boosts your soul, but it actually... I had a client, it was my favorite story, is we were having a hard time getting her blood sugar stable, and we were kind of trying all these things, and then she went and hung out with her girlfriend, and she was super tired that day, it had been a really, really stressful week, goes and hangs out with her girlfriend outside, right? Letting the kids play at the park, and that's all she did.

 

And her blood sugar, she took her blood sugar, and her blood came perfectly back into balance, right? And just, we need community for every metabolic process, honestly.

 

Laura Dugger: (8:40 - 9:27) That is incredible, and it is such a powerful truth, because I'd love to also talk about handling, managing, minimizing stress, which is important, but I think the enemy, our enemy, Satan, wants to convince us that if you're stressed, just power through, whereas like you said, God's inviting us into community with Him and with others. He's created us to need both, and that that is even more important, that trumps the stress and may even help us diminish the stress. So, I know it's not helpful for us to hear, you just need to lower your stress in your life, but how can we actually do that, and why is it beneficial?

 

Emily Johnson: (9:28 - 14:18) Yeah, so, we talked a little bit earlier about just kind of the idea of fight and flight, and I think one of the things that you see a lot in the world of holistic medicine is just looking at the nervous system. Because if I, everything that we're kind of bringing in is create, like our brains are always hyper vigilant and always looking at, is this safe? Is this not safe? So, you have somebody who is always stressed, always anxious, always running, running, running, running.

 

Your brain is kind of almost starting to get primed to think everything is dangerous, everything is a lie, and everything I need to be afraid of, right? And so, when we're constantly in that place, you never really, you're sleeping, just because you go to sleep, people are like, I sleep six hours a night. I'm like, you're unconscious six hours of the night. Are you actually getting restored sleep?

 

Or are you just running, running, running, and then you go to sleep. Yeah, you're unconscious, because your body's like, I'm exhausted, but is your mind actually calming down? Is your heart rate coming down, right? And so, when you look at the overall, every process of the body, there's so much that is related to nervous system, right?

 

Your breath, like we're not thinking about our hearts beating right now, or our lungs opening and closing. But our nervous system is, right? Our nervous system is always assessing and communicating.

 

And so, every sound we hear, every noise we come in contact with, every smell, light, right? All of it is having to be processed through that. And so, when you look at that, I would say there's a lot of stress in life that we can't control.

 

We're always looking, it's kind of like, you know, going on a bear hunt when they're like, we can't go under it, we can't go over it, we have to go through it. There's a lot of stress in life. That we just have to plow through.

 

I can't help my special needs kid, like I can't take that away, right? I can't help my marriage that's struggling. I can't necessarily run, I can't just like move around, you know, the financial struggles or whatever.

 

I can't always control everything, but I often go back to, but what can we control? Because when we kind of get into a place where we understand, I can't heal or be functionally healthy if I don't feel safe. So, do I feel safe, right?

 

And again, I can't control everything, but I often can sit with Jesus, and he will help me change the perspective of it. And so, when we look at how we, right, stress is going to put a huge burden on every organ system. Stress is going to put a huge burden on our adrenals.

 

Most of us know that kind of specifically, but it's going to put a huge stress on our nervous system. And so, where we can minimize stress, where it is within our control is always the best place to start, right? Again, sometimes simple things like unplugging your Wi-Fi will limit your metabolic stress, eating protein, right?

 

Eating good whole foods, not being dehydrated. Those are all things that are going to limit. Those are all most of the time within the stress that we can control, right?

 

I can control being on my phone, which has crazy blue light. And then right before I go to bed, which is going to like create a whole issue with my circadian rhythm. Like I can control putting my phone away.

 

I can control how I breathe and how I get outside. And so, minimizing stress, being in community with friends that are encouraging you and lifting you up, like those type of things are all things that we often can control at some level in order to help minimize that stress that way. Because the point I think of is the whole of health in general, right?

 

We know 2 Corinthians chapter four is my favorite because it's like we're all wasting away and this body is going to waste away. So, what is the point of this, right? And the point of it, I believe, is resilience to some degree.

 

Do we understand the processes of our body? Are we actively working to create some resilience? So, things don't knock us out, right?

 

You have some people, they'll get real sick, or they'll get into a car accident or something. And it's not major from the world's perspective, but metabolically it is enough stress and trauma that their whole system shuts down. Right?

 

Like the goal is that we are always renewing our spirit, but we're always working towards resiliency. And so, the more we can minimize stress, the better resiliency, every part of our body from a nervous system perspective, all the way down to a cellular perspective, it's going to function better and have more resiliency. So, when stress does come that we can't control, we can handle it better and not, it doesn't blow us over so quickly.

 

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Okay, Emily, everything you've said so far is gold. But there's a huge piece of our health, which is nutrition. And as we're training our children on healthy nutrition, I just love to hear all your wisdom on this topic.

 

So, take it where you'd like.

 

Emily Johnson: (16:00 - 24:16) Yeah, okay. Nutrition is part of my story, is actually nutrition was the thing that got me in the store that I write. I had so many crazy health things.

 

I remember asking a doctor at one point, like, will, if I change my diet, will that help? And he was like, no, right? That's not going to help your seizures. That's not going to help your allergies. That's not going to help all the stress, right? And all the things that you have.

 

And, which, by the way, right, to kind of go back to the stress thing, the amount of times that people who are really truly unhealthy are told it’s just in your head, it's just stress, right? It's, it's crazy. So, I feel like there's that level of like, do what you can to deal with the stress, but also, you're not crazy.

 

If something doesn't feel right, it's probably not right. And you're probably not just so stressed that right, there's a level that is true that we can control, but then sometimes it has nothing to do with what you're doing. Just a little snippet in there.

 

Just because I think that can be so helpful for moms to hear sometimes it's okay. It's not all in your head, you're not making it up. But when we look at nutrition, when I started diving into it, I always joke that I was going to write a book that said like, it started with paleo, right?

 

Because we dove into this world of paleo. And all of a sudden, all these symptoms that I had been told I was going to live with forever, all of a sudden started disappearing. And I was like, I don't need my inhaler anymore.

 

I don't have seizures anymore. I'm sleeping better. I feel better.

 

My puffiness is gone, like all because I changed my diet like this. Why in the world did no one tell me this sooner? Right?

 

Which is crazy. So, when you look at again, nutrition, and we're saying what did God give us and all the different levels of nutrition, you can look at macronutrients. So, that's your protein, your carbohydrates and your fat.

 

Those when we look at metabolic processes, those are like our big three that we want to get in every meal to kind of keep that fire burning, right? So, from a metabolic perspective, you want metabolism is so huge in hormones, metabolism is huge in our weight, and how we feel and just energy levels in general. And so, when you're getting good protein, good carbs, good healthy fats.

 

And obviously, with all of these, right, there can be not so great proteins and not so great carbs, right? We're like, “Oh, I ate a cinnamon roll.” I'm like, well, not probably your best carbohydrate.

 

But so, when I talk about these things, what I'm always meaning is God made food, right? God food that is in its closest to full nature, right? And obviously, we've altered food over the years.

 

But to the best of our ability, what grows in the ground, what grows on the earth is what I'm talking about. I'm not necessarily processed food, even things like Siete chips, right? Those things are like, yes, their ingredients are better, but still processed, right?

 

Crackers, I don't care if they're gluten free, they're still processed. And so, when we talk about this, we're talking about just whole food, God food, right? And so, it doesn't matter what you have doesn't matter, the health situations, you have kind of the background you're coming from, everyone can on a fundamental foundational level, look at their nutrition and say, food is the building block to my health.

 

So, when I give again, we kind of talked a lot about nervous system and information, when I give the body good nutrition through what I'm eating, it is going to help every cell of the body right function and thrive. And when we're getting those good nutrients in, you're going to get all those you're looking at the big macros, but then we're looking at the micronutrients, you know, so, a lot of people talk about magnesium and calcium, right?

 

And so, all those are, you know, selenium, vitamin D, right, not necessarily synthetic form, but in so many of our foods, these nutrients are in abundance when you eat whole foods, right.

 

And so, I feel like for so many people one of the best things because food can also become this really, really, really scary topic. I always say if you want to tick somebody off, talk about their money and talk about what they're eating. Because everyone's like, now I'm mad.

 

Now you're not my friend, right? How dare you talk about what I'm putting in my mouth. And I think there's a really interesting spiritual component to what we see all throughout Israelites, right?

 

And just how they grumbled because their bellies were driving the train, right? Like God is literally giving them manna from heaven, his glory, like food, the angels food is on the ground. And they're like, I want to go back into captivity because they had leeks and watermelon, right?

 

And it's like, this isn't a new thing. Food is really hard and can be really scary for people to talk about because we are really honestly controlled by our stomachs more than most of us would like to admit. And so, when we look at food in general and nutrition, and we're being really honest with ourselves, right?

 

We don't want to be in a place of fear. That's I think the biggest thing with all the holistic space, just like this health realm is sometimes we trade like Western medicine for which we're afraid, like we're fearful and that like I, you know, we have to take antibiotics. We don't want to get, um, we don't want the strep throat to get out of control.

 

But then we run to this holistic side and we're like, well, I don't want to take the antibiotics. I'm afraid my gut microbiome is going to be all mess. I'm like either side, you're still walking in fear.

 

God's word tells us to not be afraid, right? This is the point of this is, is to empower us to make us stand in awe of our creator who made all of this in such abundance for our good. He created all of our bodies, right?

 

He created every mechanism, every cell. So, of course he's going to give us the nutrition in the food that we eat in order to help support those natural functions of the body when we eat food that he's created. Right.

 

And so, I say that with food because I think most people we can dive down, right? Some people do need very specific diets for short period of time to create better function in their body. Maybe they have an overgrowth of something and certain foods are not helping them kind of achieve that overall kind of thriving stability.

 

But for most of us, my favorite thing when it comes to nutrition is to go back to Philippians chapter four, right? What is good? What is true?

 

What is lovely? What is pure, right? And when we're focusing on that part of nutrition, we are just undone, right?

 

How do you combat fear? You stand in awe. And when we can stand in awe of how God created an egg, right?

 

Like we get to consume an egg, and an egg isn't just protein fat. It also is vitamin D and selenium, right? And all these other micro macro nutrients that we get to consume.

 

And all of a sudden, right, we're taught to sit and pray and thank God for our food. And we're like, but what does that mean? We're just pausing and taking a deep breath, which is there is some really interesting health studies that have agreed with that, right?

 

And they're like, you need to pause and breathe every time before you eat to better further digestion. But what are we actually doing? Are we teaching our children, like, look at this asparagus and this chicken breast that you get to eat?

 

Do you understand how intentional our God is that he made this food with such nutrient packed availability for you to be able to function right within your body. So, when we look at every part of the body, every process of the body, we need good information, right? Good food to be able to come in to support that.

 

And I think most people, when we use nutrition, you don't need your multivitamins, you don't need some of these things like food is fundamental. I always say supplements should be supplemental. They're supplemental, getting you where you need to go.

 

But nutrition is the foundation, the building blocks the road, right? It's paving the way to health.

 

Laura Dugger: (24:17 - 24:40) Okay, that is so well said. But then I'm even thinking, what are some examples of you've talked about the egg and the chicken and asparagus. So, will you share maybe we'll start here a way to get our kids involved.

 

I know you've shared something that you do with the farmer’s market. Can you tell us that story? And then maybe give a few ideas for healthy snacks or meals.

 

Emily Johnson: (24:41 - 31:13) Yeah. And I do like Instagram, my website, I have I feel like I have lots of information. And honestly, maybe I could even share with you some of the handouts that I give and you could just put it in people are welcome to have them.

 

Because I love getting kids involved. It depends on your kiddos age depends on how you want to approach this potentially, right. So, when my kids were super little, we all we did a lot of rainbows, like, are we eating the rainbow?

 

And so, you know, we'd have like, I have a chart that we laminated. And you know, we'd be like, okay, here's your day how you know, maybe you get a sticker at the end of the day or something if you ate the rainbow. And so, that would be for younger kids.

 

That's super fun. Sometimes for older kids, kind of that who need to say like, high school necessarily, but when they're kind of in the like, end of elementary, maybe junior high ish, depending on how they're wired, and depending on parenting skills, I will have some other ones that are like, if you eat protein, fat and carb, now you can have maybe another choice that you would like, right. So, for my daughter, that might look like you need protein carbs, you know, like, let's say you're going to have protein, which is, again, I have some great handouts that are like, here's kind of a chunk of protein, right.

 

So, that might look like steak, eggs, or chicken, or ground beef, or, you know, bison patty, or we actually love Force of Nature, they make a really great ancestral blend. So, you're getting like liver, heart, all that stuff, and it's ground in ground beef. So, your kids don't necessarily know they're eating organ meats, but we'll do like little patties or something, right, keep it simple.

 

I feel like some of the most challenging things with nutrition is people want to really overcomplicate it. And if you're just thinking protein, animal protein, you get one of those, right, you grab on to like, maybe it's like, okay, now you need some salad, which is going to be, you know, maybe some less of good carbs, because you're throwing in zucchini and cucumber, and you're making a green salad, you know, with a few nuts in it, you know, and drizzling some olive oil on it. homemade dressings, I think are probably the probably the most complicated thing that I get to, just because it's easier to leave out all the bad ingredients in homemade dressing.

 

But there's some decent dressings out there, right? So, that's your fat. So, you do all that.

 

And then I'm like, now, if you want, like, maybe we'll have little snacks around the house that might be like, some healthy chocolate versions, right? And it's like, now, if you want a treat, you can, but you have to eat protein, carb and fat first, right? That type of thing.

 

So, there's different checklists, different things that you can do. We years ago, when my kids were super little, we actually started a list. And there, I think Dr. Walls is the one I originally got this from where she was like, you need to eat close to 300 different varieties within a year, right?

 

Because, again, kind of thinking back before refrigeration, before we were able to cart food places, we would have eaten a variety based on what was local to you that was growing in this season. Rright, which meant we didn't eat the same thing every single week, we had a lot of variety, I think diversity within the diet is also so important. Again, I think it's a further down the road, right? So, if you're like just starting in this journey, just getting yourself to whole foods is a great place to start.

 

If you're further along, the next thing we do is diversity, how many different foods. So, our goal one year was to get 300 different varieties, which doesn't sound like a lot until you actually start writing it down. We're like, cucumbers one. Okay, we eat a lot of cucumber, right?

 

Okay, tomatoes. Okay, well, that's two, right. And then so, one of the things that we had done when they were little was, we would go to the farmer’s market.

 

And we would kind of think, our area and I think a lot of areas are really increasing in kind of this idea of farmers market’s over the last few years, which is really cool. My kids were really little, we had one farmer’s market, like, and so, we would go there once a week. They had to pick out one new vegetable or fruit that they had never tried before, whatever it looks like, right. And if they could get it on a color of the rainbow that was hard to consume, right, there's some colors of the rainbow, like purple, that's not always super easy to necessarily consume outside of grapes, you know, or any plant.

 

And they're like, Okay, what other purple options are there. And so, if you could find purple cauliflower, right, then that was like, the best thing because you found a color and a new food, maybe that we hadn't tried. Purple potatoes, right, if you could try even if it was like a food that we already had tried, but it was a different color of that food, right carrots, different things like that, that you could have different varieties of color, then that would count as well.

 

So, that was kind of one way that we and it's works outside of farmers markets are just going to the grocery store going to a different grocery store. And looking Is there anything in the produce section that we haven't tried before. It can be a good place start sometimes you have to like Google what in the world it is. How you write that was like our, we started off like I remember googling, how do you cut a mango, like I didn't even like I did not grow up eating this way. And so, everything was very new.

 

I didn't know how to eat anything but iceberg lettuce or canned corn as a vegetable. And, you know, learning and so, again, bite sized pieces, right? Easy plus one, my kids do classical, we do a classical model for education.

 

And I love one of the things they had done when they were little. In their writing was an idea of easy plus one. And I feel like this always applies to almost everything in life.

 

But nutrition is one of those where I'm like, don't get overwhelmed. Because it took me and my family years to get to where we are. It wasn't like an overnight thing, right?

 

It's been a 13-year journey for us, which sounds like a lot when you actually like look at what we eat. And you're like, it took us 13 years to change out things. And it's always evolving, because my kids are older.

 

So, now they're aware of things they weren't aware of when they were little. But easy plus one, right? What do we already have, swap it out for something new.

 

It doesn't have to be overwhelming.

 

Laura Dugger: (31:15 - 33:12) I love that easy plus one. And I'm even thinking of all these fresh ideas of how I plan to incorporate this into our homeschool because some of our daughters are interested in going on with culinary arts, and they love being in the kitchen. So, I think that's a great way to involve them.

 

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But as you're talking about swaps, this is just kind of my personal journey this year.

 

I feel like God doesn't always give me a word of the year. But this year, I felt like he gave the word nourish, and even added to that as the year went on, nourishing and flourishing. And food is a big piece of that.

 

But also just tied in with all of this and helping our kids grow up in a healthy environment. What are some other product swaps that would be helpful for things that we're putting on our body, maybe makeup if they're older, or laundry detergent and different things like that.

 

Emily Johnson: (33:13 - 36:27) Yeah, I would say we I always feel like my encouragement is to start with what goes on your body. Right, sometimes and again, there's always grace. So, sometimes it's like just stop burning the candle in your house.

 

That's creating actually more toxins, it smells nice. So, anything that smells like fake fragrance is probably not going to be helpful to your system. But I would say that my next favorite is what are we putting on our body?

 

So, that's shampoos, conditioner, deodorant, lotions, makeup, laundry detergent, right, anything that would be like touching our skin, then the next thing out of that would be, I think there's a lot of fascinating information that has surfaced the last five years of just the importance of undergarments and what it does to the endocrine system. When we're not, you know, putting natural fibers on our skin, we're putting all these synthetic fibers. So, again, it's not like you can financially most of us go out and swap out everything.

 

And sometimes I still, like my girlfriend, I was just talking like, I kind of miss Tide. I miss the smell of Tide deodorant. Like I haven't used it for years.

 

But I still like there's something like emotional pride just from childhood that like just feels clean. Even though I know right that it's not. But when you look at all these different chemicals on the body, so, again, when we talk about stress, when we talk about nourishing, right, anything extra that goes on your skin absorbs, right, we forget that it's the largest organ of our body.

 

And it is absorbing all sorts of chemicals and endocrine disruptors, and creating more stress on our bodies, right, clogging our pores. When you think of that the lymphatic system, the lymphatic system is a huge system within the body that will push toxins around and help drain the body of kind of this overburden of toxic waste. And one of the biggest places, well, the biggest places for lymphatic movement is around your armpits, right?

 

And what do we do, we put on deodorant, which actually then doesn't allow our arms to sweat and to get that toxin out. And the next part is around the groin. And it's like, okay, what are you putting around the groin?

 

Are you putting synthetic fibers? Are you putting plastics? Are you putting things, toxins within your laundry detergent, right, that is then creating a disruption, right, the body's trying to release toxins.

 

And now you're either not letting it sweat it out, or you're actually putting other chemicals in those places where it's going to absorb even more, and make that lymphatic system even more backed up. So, I would say, a home like cleaning supplies and candles and fragrances, those are all really important. But again, if we're starting with absolutely ground zero, I tend to go what's on your skin first, what's touching your skin, moving away from that stuff is super helpful.

 

There's so many different apps, you know, I we started with, you know, the IW or the Oh, my goodness, I totally blanked on what that is called. The app. Oh, my goodness.

 

Oh, well, it'll come back.

 

Laura Dugger: (36:27 - 36:59) Maybe say more about I wonder if one that I've started with a girlfriend of mine, Rachel Allen, actually, her husband was a previous guest on The Savvy Sauce, Chris Allen, but she's very healthy and has been on this health journey for a while. And she showed me the Yuka app, the YUKA, which is great. It's she said, it's not perfect.

 

It's just helpful. It doesn't tell you if there's seed oils in food. So, that's a bummer.

 

But with products, if I am out shopping, and I scan a few, it'll tell which is a better option.

 

Emily Johnson: (37:00 - 37:56) Yeah, so, that's a good one. IWD was the one that we originally started with, you know, 10 years ago. And so, that can be helpful when you just don't know, right?

 

And you're in the store. And you're like, I always buy this, you know, and you kind of scan it and see what pops up. But that can be helpful.

 

But I would say in general, again, looking at just reading ingredients, if you can understand the ingredients, and you're like, oh, this is beef tallow, and, you know, some essential oils, and baking soda, right? Like, that's probably okay, you know, versus the like, I don't know these ingredients. These are a long list of ingredients.

 

And I have no idea how to even pronounce them. So, apps can be helpful. My preference is to encourage us as much as we can, right, to get away from electronics.

 

And I think that sometimes it's hard when we're like, so, scanning apps can be helpful. But also, just reading ingredients can be helpful.

 

Laura Dugger: (37:59 - 38:12) That's great. And again, just to kind of jumpstart us, do you have any favorite brands to recommend? Or even on your website?

 

Is there a place where you talk about swaps that we can link to?

 

Emily Johnson: (38:13 - 39:44) Yeah, so, on my website, and I'm constantly trying to update this, as best I can, because again, a lot of this started for me almost 13 years ago. And so, so much has changed in 13 years. So, I'm constantly trying to stay up with the new things, because we all know that anytime something becomes a buzzword, all of a sudden, all these companies jump out of the blue.

 

We're in the world of the and are they good, you know, and so, being able to kind of, obviously, now, there's so much more happening so quickly. So, on my website, I have a blog post that's just like getting started. And that I just keep trying to add to it.

 

I find books or information or podcasts that I think are helpful in this realm. It kind of breaks it down. Do you want to read a book?

 

Do you want to listen to a podcast? Do you want to me and some of my girlfriends did like a whole series on different parts of the body and just different things. And like, that's all links there.

 

So, just whether you want to watch something, read something, listen to something, there's lots of information there. And then on my website, I have lots of different like my favorite things. And those are just some of my favorite products.

 

There's great products out there just because it's on not on there doesn't mean it's not great. But there's a lot of products that I really used to love, and that they don't make the products either the same that they used to or they have disbanded over the years, right. And so, just because it's not on there doesn't mean it's still a lot of great products.

 

But I try to update that if I find something I really love, I will try to update those two spots on my website.

 

Laura Dugger: (39:45 - 39:56) Well, definitely want to link to that in the show notes. But can you give us your website name and just tell more about in general all the work that you do and what you have to offer if we want to follow up after this conversation?

 

Emily Johnson: (39:56 - 41:56) Yeah, so, my website is mygracioushealing.com. Between my website, I have an email list. But then I also do a lot on social media, Instagram specifically.

 

So, my handle over there is gracious.healing. Try just to give lots of tips and lots of trying to reclaim some of that social media space to let it be more encouraging and not fear based. But hopefully, try to kind of clue people in on just things that I'm learning and things I see in my clients. I do have a one-on-one practice called gracious healing.

 

And it is we just work bio individual with, I started off with children, and then I've obviously moved to moms. And now I'm kind of treating most whole families. But I love working with families just because it's sometimes easier because you already know so much history and everything.

 

But our goal in doing one-on-one nutrition clients is we're looking at lifestyle history, symptoms, we're looking at personality, we're looking at all the ways God created you, and where is their dysfunction on labs? Or, again, we're not thriving, right? Someone might be tired, but what does that mean?

 

Is it a soul issue, a heart issue, a mental issue? Is it you're not getting enough rest? Do you need more nutrition, that kind of stuff.

 

So, we look at all of that, and really holistically, and then we break down a road plan, how are we going to get you there, you're in the driver's seat, I'm just trying to help you navigate what nutrition might you need, what kind of steps might you need, in terms of supplementation, diet recommendations, lifestyle pieces. And we kind of address all of that with kind of a game plan of follow ups and what that looks like. My goal is for people to not need me forever.

 

So, our goal is to help as much as clients want to be discipled and learn all of this, so that then they can get to where they feel they're truly thriving, and then they can run off into the world that God has for them.

 

Laura Dugger: (41:56 - 42:24) I love that. Thank you for sharing that. And I will definitely link to that in the show notes.

 

And I just have a couple more questions for you, because I want to make sure, even as you talk about meeting with your clients, and it's very bio individual. So, maybe there's not an answer to this. But is there anything in general, any other health principles or even supplements that you do see, generally speaking, this would be beneficial to everyone?

 

Anything that we haven't covered yet?

 

Emily Johnson: (42:25 - 45:21) Yeah, so, I'd say at this point, the only two supplement companies that I feel like can be pretty helpful for most people. One is called Core Formulas. They are just kind of basic, like nothing they're doing is crazy detox, nothing they're doing is like killing anything.

 

They're just really supporting the body from a nutritional standpoint. So, you're thinking drainage, gut support, and vitamin support. So, they're pretty basic companies, like most people kind of look on their website, determine if that's something that would be helpful for them.

 

And then the other one would be body bio. So, BodyBio is a great company that focuses specifically on cellular health. And so, you're going to have electrolytes, you're going to have some good kind of fatty acids, right?

 

When we look at the cell, we need four to one omega six to omega three, a lot of us focus on omega three, because they're just aren't great sources for omega six. And so, they make some really great companies that really look at the cellular level, the mitochondria level, being able their products are really based on that you're not going to have again, crazy detox supplements. So, most people can tolerate at least to a small degree, I always say it's individual, you should always kind of look at who you are, what you have, what your goals are.

 

Because again, sometimes I think we hear things and we're like, oh, this is the roadmap, I need to detox, I need to liver do a liver blast, I need to do all these things. And that may not be true, right. And so, the ability in this day and age to just be able to chew and spit right, like what information is helpful, spit out what's not, and then maybe tuck away in my brain what might be helpful down the road.

 

Yeah, I think that those companies are the only companies I ever feel confident being like, most people would benefit from kind of playing around with those products. Yep, I don't think I think everything we talked about just feels super fundamental and foundational. I think encouraging people to really know where they're not thriving and to be really honest and raw with themselves as to what they are, what God has for them and where they're maybe not stewarding or operating fully right with the knowledge they have in those places. I think can be really helpful.

 

It's kind of like going on a trip without a destination, right? Like you're just kind of wandering. And I feel like this stuff is so beautiful and so wonderful to incorporate in our lives.

 

But if we don't actually have a picture of what we're trying to achieve in the process, I feel like we kind of just get tossed around. And so, while this stuff is all wonderful and the nutrition and focusing on I think if we don't really know where we're trying to go with it, then it can just get really muddied.

 

Laura Dugger: (45:22 - 46:11) I think that's so good to talk about purpose and be aware. And I love this conversation how you've incorporated for us as the parent, but also for our children. And I will link to one other episode as well with Dr. Charles Fay, where he talks about raising emotionally healthy and mentally healthy children. He wrote a book with Dr. Amen. And in the episode, he just talked about instilling purpose in our children and talking about that, because God does have a purpose for them as well. And so, I love how you're bringing all of this back as you've done so well shining your faith throughout this conversation.

 

But Emily, you know, we are called The Savvy Sauce, because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Emily Johnson: (46:13 - 46:57) Yeah, you I knew this question was coming. And honestly, I was like, how do I pick just one? So, I think this is what I'm going to say.

 

Discipline equals freedom. And I have just found for me that kind of that savvy sauce, and it may change that discipline may change over a period of time. But if I can get real honest with what I need to be disciplined in in the moment, it gives me so much freedom for the rest of my day.

 

And so, being disciplined it used to feel constraining. And now it actually feels like, I don't have to think about right. Decision fatigue is a real thing.

 

And so, if I can just be disciplined, there's so much freedom that happens in my day with that.

 

Laura Dugger: (46:57 - 47:32) Wow, I love that so much. And I love how self-control I think of self-discipline as a fruit of the spirit. And that's what I've experienced.

 

You've cultivated that fruit in your life. And we've gotten to experience the good sweet fruit in this conversation and the abundant life that you're living in the overflow. So, thank you for walking this journey while stewarding all of this well and sharing so generously with each of us.

 

You are just a delight to spend time with. So, thank you for being my guest.

 

Emily Johnson: (47:32 - 47:35) Yes, thank you. Oh my goodness, such kind words.

 

Laura Dugger: (47:36 – 51:19) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Raising Healthy Kids Free Tips with Emily Johnson (Episode 275)

275. Raising Healthy Kids: Free Tips with Emily Johnson

 

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 NIV "Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies."

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Hi, I'm Emily Johnson. I am a homeschool mama of two beautiful kiddos, married to my high school sweetheart, and the owner of Gracious Healing, a online nutritional practice that works with families to get to the root of their health issues with a holistic view and approach. I deeply love Jesus and pursue Him in all that I do, including health.  After walking through decades of undiagnosed health issues, I was lead to the world of functional medicine and eventually into the holistic health world. After finding support for my body and that of my kids (who have been on their own health journeys) I was able to pursue further education and began working with clients on a 1:1 basis, to help them find the hope and health that I have found.

 

Emily's Website

 

Questions and Topics We Cover:

1. Let's go over various areas and see what quick tips and starting ideas you have for each, beginning with water and hydration: Will you lay the groundwork here?
2. How does sunlight and outdoor time impact our children's health
3. How is nature a natural filtration system for air?

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Sue Neihouser Team

 

Other Episode Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce:

259 God Speaks to His Kids . . . Here's How with Chris Allen

 

Additional Savvy Sauce Episodes Related to Healthy Living:

33 Pursuing Health in the New Year with Functional Medicine Specialist, Dr. Jill Carnahan

48 Pursuing Health, Not Vanity Before and After Childbearing with Blogger, Speaker, Coach, and Podcaster, Megan Dahlman

80 Hormones and Body Image with Certified Sex Therapist, Vickie George

90 Friendship with Drew Hunter

126 Rhythms of Renewal with Gabe and Rebekah Lyons — The Savvy Sauce Podcast

129 Healthy Living with Dr. Tonya Khouri — The Savvy Sauce Podcast

212 School Series: Benefits of Homeschooling with Jodi Mockabee

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:09)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:29) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

Thank you to the Sue Neihouser team for sponsoring this episode.

 

If you're looking to buy or sell a home this season, make sure you reach out to Sue at 309-229-8831. Sue would love to walk alongside you as you unlock new doors. You are in for a treat today.

 

My fabulous guest is Emily Johnson. She's a homeschool mama who married her high school sweetheart, and she's now additionally the owner of Gracious Healing, which is an online nutritional practice that works with families to get to the root of their health issues with a holistic view and approach. Emily has so much goodness to share to encourage each of us about our own health and also how we can pass these healthy habits along to our children.

 

Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Emily.

 

Emily Johnson: (1:29 - 1:31) Thank you so much for having me.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:32 - 1:46) I'm so excited to chat with you today, and I'd love for you just to start off by vision casting the biblical reasons for pursuing a healthy life, both for ourselves and for our family.

 

Emily Johnson: (1:47 - 3:22) Yeah, I feel like this is a question that I have wrestled with a lot, right, because there's so much depth to this, and so, obviously in a short podcast we're trying to like paint the picture. I think the best way I can paint this picture without really going into like deep theology is just this idea that when we have a big picture of the destiny that God has for us and our children. We want to steward every part of our lives, including our health, to be able to run after all that he has for us, right?

 

If He came to give us life abundantly, that doesn't always look like maybe this Western view of abundance. When we kind of approach our health in the same way we do our finances and our resources and steward them well. I find that that big picture actually helps kind of keep us on this path of like, right, my kids may love McDonald's, maybe want to go to McDonald's all the time, but the reality is I believe that I know who God created them to be, and I believe that he has this destiny over them, and so, if I allow them to steward their bodies poorly in a way that makes them sick and tired, then they're not able to run after that destiny fully, and then, right, there's this limitation, and so, to have this idea of abundance, this whole holistic view, is that we steward our mind, our hearts, our spirits, our bodies, it's all one, and if we steward that according to God's Word, then we just get to run with him in such a way that just brings joy in life.

 

That is so opposite, I think, then what happens when we're sick and tired and depleted.

 

Laura Dugger: (3:23 - 4:00) That's a good word, and I think all of this information, you do such a great job with all of your work running it through the lens of parenting so, we can help our kids, but it's helpful even for me to remember everything that's healthy for our children is also healthy for us as the parents, and so, I appreciate that reminder, but I'd love to just go through some various areas and see if you even have quick tips to get us started for ideas, so, we'll just begin very basic, even water and hydration. Can you just lay the groundwork here?

 

Emily Johnson: (4:01 - 11:08) Yeah, so, to backtrack a little bit to what you said, because I think it's super important, I firmly believe that in most things, there's always a caveat to some things, but in almost everything, you can't give what you don't have, so, how do we give our children health and a big picture and asking them to steward something when we ourselves don't have the experience of what that means, and so, I think that it's a whole family affair, but often we are the gatekeepers, so, as parents, if we are not open and willing to understand health and wellness, then how do we ask our kids to do that, and so, I feel like that's just kind of so often it starts with mom, honestly, so, kind of running into water, hydration, there are so many pillars, right, you can look at all sorts of different practitioners out there, health, kind of all sides, whether you're looking at kind of Western medicine, or you're looking at more traditional, like Eastern medicine, or you're looking at holistic, functional, right, everybody's going to have the like seven, eight pillars to health. I think that almost everyone would agree within those pillars are going to be different, but almost everyone has hydration as a pillar, right, and why do we need hydration as a pillar?

 

We are, our bodies are so, there's so many facets and different mechanisms within the body, but so much of it depends upon hydration, and if the cell has enough water and electricity, right, to operate and continue those processes, I feel like so often when we look at hydration, just, we just are, and it's not so much just drinking water, right, some people are like, I just am not drinking enough water to stay hydrated, and that is a huge factor, but when we look at hydration and just what happens when the cell doesn't have enough water, and you're just, right, your body is depleted of that hydration, you will, right, be more tired, I feel like, again, disease kind of sets in quicker, that cell doesn't have the capacity to do what it's supposed to do, and bowels move slower, right, you, your skin is more dry and cracked, like there's just so many different facets of detox and flushing things out that are dependent upon hydration, but I think that we have to look at one, how much water are we drinking? I think some people, everything in health I have found is truly that Goldilocks approach, sometimes we want to take something and we want to run with it and be like, well, if a little is good, a lot's better, right, and it's often this approach of like, what is really best for you and your body and your system? So, when we look at water, we want to be well hydrated from just the metabolic perspective, but with that, we're looking at how much water are you drinking and what is in your water, right, so, if you have somebody who's drinking super contaminated water, it's going to be adding toxins as they're adding water, right, and so, we want to look at what kind of water are we drinking, then we want to say like, how much water, right, there's a kind of a general rule of thumb that people jump off of and they would say, half of your body weight in ounces is a good place to start. I say that's true for most people under certain conditions, if you are somebody who is, right, sometimes I will find that people will drink a hundred plus ounces of water a day, but then they're drinking just as much coffee and energy drinks along with it, and so, you're like, that's a lot of pressure on your kidneys to have to flush out all of that liquid, and then you have somebody who is potentially eating very processed food, right, that processed food, so, we think anytime we take what we're going to say is like man food or God food in the way God created, right, so, God created water to be enriched with minerals, structured water, you find it in nature when water is like running over a brook and like hitting those rocks and kind of moving that becomes almost electrical within it, and so, when you look at how God created the water and we see that is what's best for our bodies, now we backtrack and we say whenever we take something that God created and we kind of make a man version of it, it often requires more nutrients within our bodies to process that, so, when you have like processed food that's void of hydration, void of nutrients, it's going to actually require your body to take the reserves that it has to process that thing within the body, so, hydration is no different, right, when we're eating really whole good foods that are full of water content, right, like watermelon, cucumbers, chicken, ground beef, right, if we're not overcooking things, it should hold moisture in those foods, so, when we're eating whole foods, we're actually getting hydration, right, when we're drinking herbal teas, we're getting good minerals and hydration, and so, I say a lot of people it's like okay, yes, do the like half your body weight in ounces for an average person, but also take into account are you somebody who's sweating a lot and you're just constantly working in an environment where you're dripping with or you're an athlete, you're probably gonna need more than that, are you a person who eats really good whole nutrient-dense food and you don't eat any processed food and you're not necessarily overly exerting yourself in sweat, you may not need that much hydration, right, so, kind of listening to those body cues, I've always heard when you find you're thirsty, probably because you're already dehydrated, right, so, being on top of it, I feel like so many of us do better in the summer because we're hot and we're thirsty, but being intentional all the time with kind of trying to measure that amount of water and then taking into account other things. One of the parts of cellular hydration that I feel like it's often missed and this might be going down a rabbit trail, so, you can cut me off if it is, but when you have a healthy functioning body, your mitochondria will make ATP and one of the products of ATP is actually like a fourth phase of water, it's like a little gelatinous form of water, which is super, super hydrating, so, somebody who is really metabolically functioning well and getting all the nutrients and vitamins they need, the rest, the sunshine, right, they're just living that life and their body is thriving in it, they actually, again, may need less water because their body's producing enough water that they don't necessarily have to be chugging the same amount of water, so, I find some people, if we're overexerting our water, we might want to ask the question, why are you so thirsty all the time, why are you drinking so much water, there might actually be something metabolically imbalanced. Kids are super great, I feel like they're so intuitive that unless they're drinking sodas and juices and energy drinks, if they're just drinking water and eating whole foods, most of the time they're pretty good at knowing when they need water and when they don't.

 

Laura Dugger: (11:09 - 11:20) Because is that rule, I guess, generally recommended as well with the half your body weight in ounces, is that the same for kids and you feel like they're just natural at regulating that?

 

Emily Johnson: (11:21 - 12:27) Yeah, and so, sometimes you look at a kiddo who's super tired all the time, and you might ask the question, how much water are they drinking, right? The other thing I find with kids, with kind of this like new Stanley water bottles and stuff for women, it's a little bit different, but I feel like with kids, because we're so like in this mindset of kids get water bottles, right, and you like fill their water bottle up before you send them to school or daycare or whatever, or just for the day, unless you're drinking out of a glass cup at home all the time, most kids just naturally fill up a water bottle, I find just nowadays. And so, it's easier to track their water, I feel like for most kids.

 

And so, okay, kind of that general rule of thumb, in general, half your body weight. You know, my son, when my kids were in public school, he used to come home and like none of his water, like his water hadn't been touched, right? And I'm like, okay, you went six hours through a whole day and never took a sip of water, right?

 

Like that's obviously would be a problem. But I think he was so distracted at school, right? That like, he wasn't realizing kind of those cues within his body to reach for his water.

 

But yes, it would be the same for kids.

 

Laura Dugger: (12:28 - 15:19) And now a brief message from our sponsor.

 

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Okay, well then you also mentioned sunlight.

 

So, how does sunlight and just general outdoor time impact our children's health?

 

Emily Johnson: (15:20 - 21:49) Yeah, so, there's again so many rabbit shells we could probably go down on this, but in general I always look at the body as what did God create and how close to nature are we living or how far away are, right? So, there's a doctor that is always quoted, he says, you know, the further away from nature that we get the more disease that we see, right? And so, when you look at sunlight and getting your feet on the ground, so, from a metabolic perspective, sunshine is super important for our circadian rhythm.

 

It's super important just for cellular health, for energy, right? So, when you get that sunlight on your face that not only gives you vitamin D, if you kind of have the processes in the body right to convert the sunlight to vitamin D, but it is also going to be super helpful for your eyes because the minute your eyes see sunlight in the morning, people always say, I can't sleep at night. And I'm like, okay, what do you do the first hour of your morning?

 

Because the first hour of our morning actually sets that clock for the rest of our day and actually kind of helps us fall asleep at night. So, when you look at sunlight and just the way that it actually helps your circadian rhythm, it's gonna help naturally calm. If you ever go outside and you feel a little bit anxious and then you go outside and you almost just breathe, right?

 

Like I think there's just this beautiful calming effect that the sun has on most people, right? It just lifts your mood. It's just because our bodies are so deprived of sunlight.

 

When you look at, again, the cell, it's why red light, things like that, people really enjoy because you do get some of those light waves within them, like your skin absorbs it. And then, right, it just kind of helps your adrenals, your cellular function, and just in general your body. There was an interesting study years ago that I had come across that was actually talking about chickens and how, right, why do you use chicken lights?

 

Why do farmers use chickens? Because if you don't use a warming light and give, get like a fake sunlight, right, on the chicken, they'll molt in the winter, and they won't lay eggs. But as long as you keep stimulating the sun by getting light on their skin, then they actually keep reproducing eggs and their feathers don't molt.

 

And so, they were using that study to say, okay, how does that affect humans, right? And I always feel like God gave us the sun and, right, he, when we're out in the sun, like so many parts of the body just process better and more efficiently. Then you mentioned getting your feet on the ground, right?

 

And so, when you look at the electromagnetic fields within the earth, they are, again, God-made electric magnetic field. When you get your feet on the ground, when you're in nature, when you're out in, there's a grounding effect that happens. So, I think this happens in both our physical and our spiritual sense, right?

 

So, physically, you actually start getting, in the same way we need water, we also need really good electricity within the body to, again, kind of make all those processes of the body happen. When we are so, when we're kind of living under false light, we're not getting our feet on the ground. We're not getting out in nature where everything is kind of artificial, right?

 

The body just doesn't thrive in the same way that it does out in nature. So, getting our kids outside, getting them in the sunlight is not only gonna help just make them feel better, it's gonna help their skin, right? Their energy of the body, all those different things.

 

Then getting their feet on the ground, they're actually can start absorbing that electromagnetic field from the earth. It's why astronauts, right, when they go off into space, they actually, their body ages really, really, really fast because they don't have the gravity and they don't have that electrical pull that happens when we're out in nature. There's some fun studies that talk about how when you get like even just like one 24-hour period of like camping is enough to totally reset your circadian rhythm.

 

Just like one and then it lasts, right? There's some other studies on the immune system and how when we're in nature for just even two to three days consistently, right? And so, that looks like man-made environment going in nature for a couple days and then coming back to man-made environment and how that just boosts your immune system, you know, for up to several months, like it just kind of lingers, right?

 

And so, the idea is that we're always in nature, we're always getting outside, we're always gonna get these benefits. Because I work a lot with children with neurodivergent issues, one of the best things again, we can do for our kids from a brain development perspective is actually letting them get outside and run around and climb on things and jump off things and right because that actually helps strengthen parts of the brain as well as just their overall body. For kids who are super nearsighted, getting them outside in the sun and doing work and stuff outside actually will help strengthen those eye muscles.

 

So, there's just so many cool benefits. I think even just when you look at, you know, being inside a building, you have walls, right? So, your depth perception, your awareness is still kind of closed in.

 

But when you go outside in nature and you're even just in your backyard, right? There are no walls, right? So, there's just an expanse and your mind and your perception, what you hear, what you see, what you smell, everything just gets kind of grounded is honestly the best word.

 

And I think even spiritually, you see that, right. We started gardening years ago, not because I'm particularly good at gardening, but because I had read that like, the parables in the gospels are so much more amplified when your kids understand what it looks to farm. And obviously, we live in town, we don't live on land where we can like do the full farming thing.

 

But at least the idea was that our kids would understand what it means for a seed to go in the ground, what it means for it to sprout, what it means, you know, to have to prune the peach trees, what it means to have, you know, to, to be able to harvest after you've done all of this work, right? And so, that even just those things, like there's so much more, I think, spiritual, and physical and emotional of just being in nature, right? We slow down; we just appreciate God's beauty in a different way.

 

And then metabolically, we just see all the amazing benefits that it has.

 

Laura Dugger: (21:50 - 22:13) And I'd never heard that before about camping resetting us even for months. If that feels too big for somebody to do right away, is there any recommended amount of time just as we're getting started, even as it's starting to get colder out, when the weather is tolerable, what amount of time will we maybe start to see benefits of being outdoors?

 

Emily Johnson: (22:14 - 25:41) Yeah, so, everyone, unfortunately, right, is a little bit different in kind of, because it's going to depend on what you're doing inside too, right? So, if you're on a screen, 24 hours a day, and then once you go outside, you can spend 20 minutes outside, right? I would say most of my clients, I encourage 20 minutes a day outside, even when it's really, really cold, right?

 

Because there's also beautiful benefits of cold therapy. So, as you're moving into the winter, sometimes I'm like, that's actually so fun, because you get light in the morning, you get your kids outside, they get their energy out, and they're getting cold exposure, which is also super helpful at boosting the immune system, right? It's a hormesis stress.

 

So, there's some stresses that are really bad. And you kind of want to avoid those stresses, right? But there are other stresses that in short measurements actually increase the ability of the immune system to kind of modulate it and boost just resiliency in general.

 

And so, honestly, even cold in, I just think with air conditioning, with lighting, with all that stuff, right, we have just kind of lost our ability to be resilient from a biological perspective. So, the more in the summer, when it's really warm, and you're pushing your kids outside, right. They're kind of getting like, “Oh, it's too hot.” Or when it's in the middle of winter, and you're pushing your kids outside. They're like, “It's freezing cold, right.”

 

And so, it doesn't have to be a lot, but I would say a little bit. And I also find that it's kind of the teenager and adults that have a harder time being outside, kids will always run outside and play, right? Once you get them out there, I feel like most of the time, they're, it's hard to then get them back in.

 

But I would say in general, starting off with just, and you know, I say 20 minutes for kids, because I think that's super important. And even more, right. So, I love the like 100 hours, you know, a year outside, like a lot of that initiative in those books are just so cool.

 

Because it just kids love charts, and they love being outside. So, an hour a day is another kind of helpful benefit. But I would say, if you're really struggling, depending on the schedule, and just your work and sports and all the things, any amount outside is going to be beneficial.

 

So, grab your coffee, go stand outside, even in the cold, even if it's still dark outside, right, sip on your coffee for five minutes. And then as much as you can do throughout the day to just get outside, park a little farther away from the grocery store. So, you get a little bit more time outside, right?

 

Camping in your backyard, if you're like, I don't want to go camping or my kids used to, you know, put hammocks out and sleep outside. Just that type of stuff. It doesn't have to be like going into the middle of the woods and hibernate, you know, it can be these little chunks of just exposure.

 

Even when we say nature, the studies of all that I've always come across are like deep in the woods. But we also see the benefit of just being outside, even in a rural area, right, or super industrial area, or a super heavily populated city, like it is still, you still see a lot of benefits, people in New York who are just going outside on their patio, like you still see health benefits. So, I would say, make a resolve amount of time and stick with it until that becomes easy.

 

And then you start doing the next thing, right?

 

Laura Dugger: (25:42 - 26:12) I love that. Okay, that's doable to start with a bite size and some is better than none and more is better than some. I'm also thinking, as you're talking about cold therapy and grounding, maybe not for kids with cold plunging, but are there any other kind of bio hacks? Are grounding mats that we can sleep on, is that helpful for children too, if they're not getting the amount of time barefoot on the ground outdoors as we would like?

 

Emily Johnson: (26:13 - 29:08) Yeah. So, one of the things we think about with grounding is again, eating whole nutrient dense food that is going to help that mitochondria, right? Those types of foods, the electrical current of the body, that actually I find some kids don't need to kind of ground like on the grounding mats, maybe the way an adult would, because they're just not depleted as much energy, right?

 

As maybe an adult might be. Grounding mats, I feel like can go either way because some kiddos, adults too, I just think kiddos, you're not as aware of it as maybe an adult might be that some, even with grounding mats, I have some very sensitive clients who can't do like manmade EMFs, right? So, anything electrical that you're plugging into a wall, Wi-Fi, even like batteries sometimes, you know, they're just very sensitive too.

 

And so, sometimes those kinds of biohacking things don't work super well if it brings in kind of a manmade current. PEMF is one of my favorite. Most kids respond well to that.

 

And it just kind of boosts the cell backup. I don't know if I've had great reviews from people with grounding mats that anyone feels any different. I don't know if it's placebo.

 

I just haven't had personal testimony that it does a whole lot. PEMF, I definitely have had lots of testimony that kids feel more grounded, adults feel better, just overall kind of addresses the whole cellular function. Red light is my next favorite, because again, if you are sensitive to EMF, you can stay away from it and you're still getting it on your skin.

 

So, you see some of those health benefits. Red light is probably my favorite because I just think it's so much easier for kids to do. And there's so many different variations out there that can be super helpful.

 

Again, just getting light on the skin can just kind of help boost the overall, just cellular process of the body. You said cold plunges. Cold plunges, again, yeah, for adults are great.

 

Kids, it's just hard to measure. But cold washcloths, right? Cold, even just like a cold face plunge, right?

 

Some kids don't mind that and that can be super beneficial for them. But most kids you're like, just go outside in the cold and you start to see the benefits of that. But I have a couple of kids just from a nervous system perspective, they get really amped up and real worked up, right?

 

And obviously for an adult, I'd be like, go cold plunge. For a kid, you're not going to necessarily do that. But we take ice packs and I just say, take ice packs, put them on the face for just a little bit until they're tolerating it.

 

And a lot of times that will bring kind of that nervous system back into balance, just putting ice packs on your face.

 

Laura Dugger: (29:09 - 29:54) I just wanted to let you know, there are now multiple ways to give when you visit TheSavvySauce.com. We now have a donation button on our website, and you can find it under the donate page, which is under the tab entitled support. Our mailing address is also provided if you would prefer to save us the processing fee and send a check that is tax deductible.

 

Either way, you'll be supporting the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and helping us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. Make sure you visit TheSavvySauce.com today. Thanks for your support.

 

This is new to me. Did you say PEMFs or what is that?

 

Emily Johnson: (29:54 - 31:35) Yeah. So, it's post electromagnetic field therapy. Yeah.

 

So, it's kind of, and there are homemade ones or like ones you can get for home that are doable. Therisage is my favorite one just because it's price wise, it's doable. Most I've had lots and lots of testimonies of, you know, autistic kiddos that just they're calm when they're sitting on it.

 

And then there's really great like high tech ones that you would find. Pulse centers is my favorite. Like they're just really expensive.

 

So, most of the time you're going to go to a pulse center center of some kind or chiropractor or something like that that might have one. But the idea is that it is trying to mimic as close to the ground, right? So, when you think EMFs in nature, there's a certain frequency that the sun gives off a certain frequency that the earth gives off.

 

But manmade EMFs tend to be significantly higher and just way, way, way out of range of kind of what these manmade or I'm sorry, God made ones are. So, when you're sitting on a PEMF, it's kind of mimicking that frequency of the earth and the sun. So, you get kind of there's different frequencies for different levels.

 

So, pain, neurological, kind of resetting your nervous system, sleep, like there's a lot of different frequencies that you might look at if depending on the health concern that you have. But again, it's sensitive to like manmade EMFs and sometimes having something plugged in the wall that you're sitting on doesn't really do it for you.

 

Laura Dugger: (31:36 - 31:54) Okay, you're making me even think of weighted blankets then as well. But before we go there while we're on EMFs, are things like AirPods the worst for us? Or what are practice to have in place to avoid the most harmful EMFs?

 

And why are they harmful?

 

Emily Johnson: (31:55 - 37:20) Yes, yeah. So, so, again, when we're thinking the best way I feel like I can describe it without getting super, super sciency is that it is kind of like these frequencies are coming at us in a way. So, when you're outside on the ground, right, your body, it's like this really beautiful hurt, like slow hurts that your body is receiving.

 

When you get into these higher frequencies, it's kind of like microwaves, right? Like it's just this constant noise that is bombarding your system. So, one of the things that you hear a lot in health is, and I know this is again, maybe a little bit of rabbit trail, but I think it applies to maybe kind of encompasses lots of conversation here.

 

But when you think about health, we're always saying like, can you stay in a place of rest and digest? Can you say is your nervous system always in this heightened fight or flight stage, or even worse. So, it's called dorsal vagal.

 

When you jump up to this, like freeze mode and your body just kind of freezes, right. We're not making good cells. We're not necessarily running from a dragon, right.

 

Or a lion or something. We're not like scared in that way, but we're not, we're also not resting and we're not digesting and absorbing either because there's this heightened kind of nervous system reaction that's happening. So, when you look, obviously, we always think of stress as emotional, right.

 

And it's like, oh, I want to avoid the stress emotionally, but metabolically we're looking at what externally also is causing stress on my system. And so, EMFs, because we don't see them, I think a lot of people don't realize how problematic they are, but it's almost this, like, you can't feel the, you can't see the wind, but you can feel it, right. It's kind of like that in the sense that you can't necessarily feel the EMFs, but if you were to take certain electrical measurements, you're able to see like that's emitting a ridiculous amount of frequency.

 

And so, you think of like just sitting in your living room, super calm, relaxed, right. But if you have all of this bombardment of EMFs kind of at a frequency level hitting your body, then without realizing it, you're like, why does my body always feel like it's stressed out? And so, again, from a resilience perspective, how do you fight infection and deal with actual stressors in your life?

 

If you're in a place of always being in this kind of heightened fight or flight stage. So, EMFs, manmade EMFs, there's a lot of different ones you can talk about. There's ones, obviously you have an ACDC that runs through your walls that can be problematic.

 

You have Wi-Fi. I would say the top things that I would say for most people, AirPods, I would say is relatively low. It depends on how much you wear them, right?

 

If you're a kiddo who's wearing it 12 hours a day, it's not super great. Some people would say that unless you get like a tubed type EMF specific, you know, earbud or headphone that every single one, whether it's wired or wireless is probably not great for you. The younger you are, the more problematic it is because you, the way your brain is and the way that the protection around your brain is, you're more sensitive the younger you are.

 

So, you can look on like a thermogram and you can see how a kiddo with like a cell phone to their head is going to be like, all of a sudden their whole head is like bright red and hot versus an adult who does the same amount of time. It might be a little bit more like orange, but it's not going to be as bright red because you don't have that barrier around your brain quite yet. When you're little, it's still forming versus when you're an adult, you have more of a thicker skull.

 

Your brain protection is just different. So, I would say top ones that seem like the most problematic are 5G, because again, it's just this, like, you know, I just read a study the other day that we had more bees die this last winter in America than we've had, right? Like all, like, I don't know, ever recorded, you know?

 

And the question was, you have really high frequencies, like 5G, that's like disrupting a lot of our animals. And actually, they've shown that it does kill bees, you know? And so, when you think of if it's killing off animals and disrupting kind of the natural way that birds and bees and things are able to communicate and locate where they need to go because that EMF is so, or that 5G is so disruptive, then what is it doing to our own brains and bodies?

 

So, I would say 5G is not great. So, if you live by a tower, sometimes you do need to, like, protect yourself if you can. That looks like different sheets.

 

There's different sheets and options and things that you can go on your wall. There's a ton of, like, EMF protection in the world. I don't know if that's necessary for most people.

 

Unplugging your Wi-Fi at night, talking on a speakerphone and not having your cell phone up to your head can be some of the easiest ones I have found that most people, it feels very doable to unplug your Wi-Fi because that can emit a lot of really high EMF frequencies. And then anything that you can do that's just more on speaker and not in your ear is probably better, but I don't think it's terrible if it's short-term.

 

Laura Dugger: (37:21 - 37:45) Even going back to that outdoor time, we've talked about clean water, mentioned some clean food, and grounding. All of these things are free options so far as well. And even just how much cleaner outdoor air is compared to indoor air.

 

Can you speak to how nature is a natural filtration system for air?

 

Emily Johnson: (37:45 - 38:40) Yeah. I'm trying to think of where we want to go with that. So, I think that when you look at the way that grass and leaves, right, you know, when you're thinking of, like, fourth grade science and you're like, okay, photosynthesis, right, all these different things, the way that they give up oxygen and the way that they filter, you know, different pathogens in the air.

 

And when you think of the breeze and just the natural way that things move around outside, it is, you're going to just have that natural, nothing's going to settle as much, right? And when you have your indoor, your windows are all closed. You don't have that natural cross bees.

 

You don't have that natural movement flowing through. And then, right, you just have nature that's just good at releasing oxygen into the air and you have trees that just naturally absorb those toxins. And yeah, does that answer your question?

 

Laura Dugger: (38:41 - 42:46) It's so good. It's helpful to have those little takeaways. And I'm just thinking, get outside, get outside.

 

Emily and I were having so much fun recording that we went way over the planned time limit. So, I want to share all of it with you, but we're going to divide this episode into two parts. So, make sure you tune in next time for part two with Emily Johnson.

 

One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Holy Spirit Stories and Fruit and Ways to Identify His Guidance in Our Lives with Margaret Feinberg (Episode 274)

274. Holy Spirit Stories and Fruit and Ways to Identify His Guidance in Our Lives with Margaret Feinberg

 

Exodus 31:3 NIV "and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with wisdom, with understanding, with knowledge and with all kinds of skills—"

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Questions and Topics We Cover:

1. Joy is a fruit of the Spirit, so will you share some insight into what you’ve been learning about the Holy Spirit from your most recent research for your latest book, entitled The God You Need to Know?
2. If someone listening has trouble identifying the Spirit’s role and God’s direction or Jesus’ voice in their life, how would you encourage them to grow in attention and recognition of His voice and leading?
3. Do you have any stories to give as illustrations for the Spirit still mightily being at work in the world and in people’s lives today?

 

Margaret Feinberg, one of America’s most beloved Bible teachers, speaks at churches and conferences and hosts the popular podcast The Joycast. Her books and Bible studies, including Taste and See, Fight Back with Joy, More Power to You, and The God You Need to Know have sold more than one million copies and received critical acclaim and national media coverage from the Associated Press, USA Today, Los Angeles Times, Washington Post, and more. She was named by Christianity Today as one of fifty women most shaping culture and the church today. Margaret savors life with her husband, Leif, and their superpup, Zoom.

 

Margaret's Most Recent Work: The God You Need To Know Book and Bible Study

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Dream Seller Travel, Megan Rokey

 

Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce:

150 Brain Science and Spiritual Abundance with Ken Baugh

Special Patreon Re-Release Theology and Discipleship with Ken Baugh

259 God Speaks to His Kids . . . Here's How with Chris Allen

Fruitful with Laura Dugger

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:09)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 2:18) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

Do you love to travel?

 

If so, then let me introduce you to today's sponsor, DreamCellar Travel, a Christian-owned and operated travel agency. Check them out on Facebook or online at DreamCellarTravel.com. Today we get to learn from one of the most joyful human beings I've ever encountered.

 

My guest for today is Margaret Feinberg, and she's an author and researcher and podcaster and speaker. Most recently, her research project turned into a book where she was researching all about the Holy Spirit and His work in the Old Testament and the New Testament, and still His work that's present and active in our lives and around our world today. So, her stories of His specific presence at work in our lives are so moving, and she also pairs that with practical ways that we can more clearly hear from the Holy Spirit and identify His voice in our lives.

 

We also chat about the true definition of the word weird, which I actually want to elaborate on now because in the moment I couldn't find the definition that was so powerful. So, weird is defined as unearthly or uncanny, extraordinary, involving or suggesting the supernatural, and completely fantastic. Sometimes we think the Holy Spirit may be inviting us into something that seems weird, but He's redefined weird for us, and I just pray that all of us after this conversation will accept the invitation with gladness from Holy Spirit in our lives to join in whatever adventure He has planned for each one of us today.

 

Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Margaret.

 

Margaret Feinberg: (2:18 - 2:24) What a delight to be with you today. It's absolute joy, and you look fantastic, by the way.

 

Laura Dugger: (2:24 - 2:45) You're so kind. I can tell that joy is one of your markers already, and that makes me think you just have such a rich spiritual heritage in general. So, we don't typically start here, but can you go back and share your parents' story of coming to faith in Jesus Christ?

 

Margaret Feinberg: (2:46 - 5:22) Absolutely. I share this in the book, The God You Need to Know, in Bible study, but it's pretty beautiful. They actually came to know Jesus back in the 1970s during the Jesus movement, and my father was raised Jewish, and my mom was not really raised much in the church, and so, they got married, and separately on the same weekend, they came to know Christ. My father, back in the 1960s, he was actually a surfboard manufacturer.

 

He helped build longboards the very first time that longboards were cool, and these customers kept coming into his little store and telling him about Jesus, and eventually he grew so frustrated that one weekend he went out turkey hunting, and he was sitting in turkey blind, had tons of time around him, and decided to sit down and read the entire New Testament over the course of that weekend, and he read it, and he thought, “Wow, Jesus came to earth.”

 

He lived, he died, and he was resurrected that we can have eternal life for free, and he thought, in his Jewish brain, that is a good deal, and so, he just believed in Christ, and meanwhile, my mom is at home and has her own encounter. She's finishing reading a book by the name of The Great Late Planet Earth by Hal Lindsey, which was actually the best-selling book of the decade back in the 1970s, and at the end of that book, it had an invitation to come to know Christ, and so, both of them come to know Christ separately on the same weekend. They come home on that Sunday, and they're a little awkward about it because it sounds weird. They don't really want to tell each other, and then finally start to spell out, and there's such joy that they both came to know Christ because the Holy Spirit was at work in their lives. What's amazing is that they had been trying to have kids for the first eight years of their marriage and hadn't been able to conceive, and within a month of them coming to know Jesus, I was conceived. So, you just see the work of the Holy Spirit all over that, and that He is leading people to Christ. He is on the move, and sometimes it doesn't involve any of us doing anything, and that's a freedom marker for us. It's not our job to run around and try to save everybody. Holy Spirit is already at work, and when we have the opportunities to be part of that, it is a privilege and a joy. Trust in a God who is so good and so loving and so kind that He will find people through reading books and hiding out in a turkey blind hunting turkeys all weekend.

 

Laura Dugger: (5:23 - 5:45) That gives me goosebumps even to hear the timing of that and you being conceived. Then you also had a unique childhood. At that time, not as many people were homeschooled, and your story was fascinating. So, what was homeschooling and spiritual discipleship like for you in the growing up years?

 

Margaret Feinberg: (5:46 - 8:18) Yeah, so, in those early years, my mom and dad had that mom-and-pop kind of surf shop down in Cocoa Beach, Florida. For all you surfing nerds, Ron Jon loaned my dad the money to marry my mom. I mean, so, we're talking deep surfing roots, still friends to this day, and so, they would work, and a lot of you are entrepreneurs and are listening, and you get this, but they would often work seven days a week, 14 hours a day, just trying to keep this little store open with their employee. It just was. It's just a rough business, retail, and so, the only way that they could get away was they would leave the store in the hands of a manager. They decided to buy a really small, inexpensive boat, and we would go sail from the coast of Florida into the Caribbean. So, as we did that, what do we do for school. I remember for third grade, we actually went for an entire year, and so, it was homeschooling. Now, this is like early 80s, and you have to think like it's not exactly fact-checked, reputable, like you send your work in like once or twice a year. So, I'm living on this boat, super remote, not even around a ton of kids, pretty isolated, and I figured out that if I did all my schoolwork in one day that I could play the other six, and so, that was my year of third grade. Fortunately, things turned out okay, but I learned so much more just meeting people from all over the world, surfing or swimming.

 

I learned how to, at eight years old, shoot my first lobster because we had to survive off the ocean. So, it was an incredible experience. Then after that, ended up going into public school in the later years once we got to like probably fifth, sixth, a lot more steady than those early years. But you know, the thing that I always saw in my mom was I would wake up, and she would usually be on the couch or on the deck of the boat, and she would be reading her Bible, and there was something about that. It wasn't spoken.

 

It wasn't like you must do this, but I watched it, and I saw it, and now all these years later, that's what I do. So, for all those mamas and papas who are listening and watching, I just want to encourage you - like how you live, those little things, the kids and the grandkids and the great-grandkids, they watch, they see, and it matters, and so, thank you. Those of you who are engaging in those things. It pays dividends for decades and generations to come.

 

Laura Dugger: (8:20 - 8:28) That's incredible, and then can you share about your own faith journey? You saw that modeled. When did it become personal to you?

 

Margaret Feinberg: (8:29 - 11:44) Yeah, you know, even as a young kid, I was aware of God and Jesus and Holy Spirit, and just the Lord was very tender to make Himself real to me when I was young. When I went away to college, and this is just normal behavior, you know, there is that kind of making faith your own, figuring it out, and so, my freshman year of college, I partied like a rock star. I got the bees, the beer, the boys, and the Ben and Jerry, like I, you know, I just all the things, and I remember at the end of that year, I had this sense that God was saying to me like, you are my child. I have called you by name.

 

You are mine. Come back to me, and I read about this in The God You Need to Know, but one of those was a turning point I went to. It was actually a Methodist conference on Holy Spirit, and while I was there, I had an unusual experience, but in it, you know, I'm watching, I'm listening to all these lectures.

 

I'm in the conference. I'm attending all these things, and at one point, I had a thought pop into my mind that was not my own, and the thought was go to the prayer room and look underneath the tablecloth. I was like, okay, that's weird, but it was like go to the prayer room and look underneath the tablecloth. So, I'm like, you know what? At the end of the day, like what do I have to lose?

 

I mean the worst thing that happens is I wander into our prayer room. Okay, we'll take the risk, and I remember going in there, and I'm kind of like there's some people praying (a couple). I'm trying to like I don't want to be weird like I know it's a conference on the Holy Spirit, but still I'm like I am not going to be weird about it. So, I'm like trying to peek underneath a tablecloth, and there's nothing there, and there's all these tables around the room. So, I'm kind of like making my way across, and I'm seeing like one lady like eyeing me like what is happening. So, I peek under another one. Anyway, I go table after table, nothing after nothing until I reach the very last table. I pick up the tablecloth, and there is a Bible, and I look, and it's full of like notes and photographs. So, I pull it out, and there's a name on the front, and so, I just kind of said, “You know, excuse me in the prayer room like does anybody know this person, and most people were like no, and one lady says you know what I do know her, and she had to leave the conference early, and I actually have her phone number.” So, all of a sudden I'm on the phone calling this lady and saying “Hey, I just found your Bible on the phone.” 

 

She says, “You have no idea. That Bible is full of decades of prayers and notes and photos that can't be replaced. I have been sitting here praying that someone would find my Bible.” So, I'm just in awe like Holy Spirit, I didn't even know - like wow like this is not just a mental learning.

 

This is a real experience, and so, I told a couple people at the conference about it. One said’ “You know what, actually, if you're driving up that direction, I've been praying to get a ride up that direction.” So, I was able to drop off this ministry worker, return this Bible to this precious woman, and that really became one of the markers in my life. Oh my goodness Holy Spirit is real. He is on the move. He is leading and guiding us, and this is such an exciting thrilling adventure to be on.

 

Laura Dugger: (11:45 - 12:12) Wow, and it absolutely is. You are an incredible storyteller. It's so powerful the way that you wrote some stories in your books, the way that you're sharing it now. God has really gifted you with that, and that's part of your purpose in life being that storyteller. So, how did you begin to uncover the purpose that God had for you in life?

 

Margaret Feinberg: (12:12 - 15:09) That's such a great question, so, I'm going to answer that a couple different folds. Can I do that? So, the first answer is all of our purpose is the same. It is to love God, love others, and delight in Him forever.

 

That is the purpose of all of our lives, and so, that is the answer. At the same time, a lot of what I think you're saying is purpose is a little bit about vocation. Is that right?

 

And so, we need to recognize that as believers that this idea that somehow our vocation or what we do is our purpose and is supposed to give us meaning and value to God has really only been around for the last 50 to 75 years and largely established in the American culture. But for thousands of years, that has never been the case. And so, what that does is that for a lot of us, when we don't kind of understand that it puts a heavier weight on the job. The vocation that we do to carry all of this burden of purpose, fulfillment, meaning, ordained by God.

 

I mean, that becomes like a heavy burden for a single job or vocation to carry that it was never meant to. Right? And so, again, back to what is our purpose?

It is loving God, loving others, and delighting. And that never changes no matter whether you are raising littles, whether you are whatever the title on your business card, if you still have those, or identification on social, whatever it is. But that never changes.

 

And so, I think that we have to step back and recognize that. Now, I do understand that I am in a role in which my job provides spiritual meaning. And that is delightful.

 

And I am super grateful for that. But in that, my spiritual meaning is still not about what books I write or podcasts or any of that nonsense. It's all about how I'm living in my community and real one-to-one relationships that are done privately and never published on social media.

 

That is the real life. And so, I just want to encourage everyone out there to think that that job is the thing. The job is never the thing.

 

Now, don't let that distract you because what do you do when you're retired? What do you do if you can't do that job? But if you are in a vocation, if you are in a role, that to understand, yes, God can use that, and to invite Holy Spirit into that space, but to make sure that we don't find our identity in that.

 

Because that's a short runway. That's going to end at one point. And to really ground ourselves into the eternal and what does not have an end and what will sustain us from our first breath until our last.

 

Laura Dugger: (15:10 - 16:38) Wow, I love how you put all of that. And so, I'm going to share a story, so, bear with me because you may not be aware, but back in 2013, our lives first crossed paths. So, back then, we were pregnant with our first child.

 

And my husband, Mark, and I went with my parents to the American Association of Christian Counselors conference in Nashville. And you were one of those keynote speakers at the Opera Land Hotel. And I was just mesmerized by every word you shared.

 

And so, I see why people write about you, and they say you're one of America's most beloved Bible teachers, because you were so endearing from the first word spoken. But at the time, you were battling cancer. And yet you were still willing to generously and joyfully share about the goodness of the Lord and the ways that we encounter Him in nature through olives and bees and so on.

 

But the one other thing that has stuck with me for over a decade is when you encourage the audience of probably thousands of people in attendance, that if we don't know what to be thankful for today, be thankful for nose hairs. So, do you remember that?

 

Margaret Feinberg: (16:39 - 19:24) I do. Yeah, that defined gratitude in the little things and in the heart. I do.

 

And the reason I said that, because without context, that sounds really, really strange. But whenever anybody who's out there and is walking through any medical, whether that's mental health or physical challenges, one of the difficulties is in the medical world, they don't tell you everything that's coming. And so, there are all these hidden surprises, and you can read about it, and you can WebMD it, and you can read online, and all of them are just going to say you're going to die tomorrow.

 

We already know that. We know we shouldn't Google these things, right? But no matter what you're walking through, there are things that people just don't tell you.

 

And so, I knew that going through chemotherapy, I would lose my hair. And sure enough, in 10 days, it was all falling out. Nobody told me that that included all my hair, including my nose hairs.

 

And so, what I had to learn the hard way is when you don't have nose hairs, like kind of what holds anything that's liquid in your nose, it just falls out. And so, my encouragement was to everybody, you don't have anything to give thanks to God for today. Give thanks for your nose hairs.

 

And just a light way of saying, you know, even when you're walking through the darkness, and I know some of your listeners and your viewers are, you are in dark seasons. And if that is you, I just want to say, I get you. I get it.

 

I have battled cancer. I have battled autoimmune. I have battled being sick for years.

 

I have battled being embezzled. I have battled surviving a destructive pastor. I know suffering and pain.

 

But even when we're in the darkness, we are a people who poke holes in the darkness until it bleeds light. And that's who we are. And gratitude is just one of those tools that helps us do that.

 

So, I just want to encourage you today, like whatever it takes for you. And there is something in this concept of joy. And I don't quite understand.

 

I can't quite wrap my head around it. But joy is something that you can give away even when you don't have it. And in the process of giving away joy when you don't have it, somehow our capacity for joy expands.

 

It's a strange equation in God's economy. It does not add up. It does not make sense.

 

But whether it's, you know, climbing in an MRI machine and saying, man, has anybody praised God from this square inch today? Whether it's showing up and giving just a simple gift to someone else, whether it's writing the note, whether it's encouraging someone else, even in our own pain. When we do that, our capacity for joy just grows bigger and bigger.

 

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You just lived this so well, and I know joy is a fruit of the spirit. Will you share some insight into what you've been learning about the Holy Spirit, especially from all your research from your latest book? As you mentioned, it's entitled The God You Need to Know.

 

Margaret Feinberg: (21:59 - 25:44) Yeah, I'm super excited about this book and Bible study. I've had a lot of questions about the Holy Spirit since I was a little girl. I remember reading the Bible and thinking, Jesus, He's so real.

 

He's so human. That I can recognize, and I get the picture of God on the throne, all powerful and sovereign. But when I think about the Holy Spirit, I'd be like, I'm struggling here a little bit.

 

And growing up in Southern Baptist and Methodist and Episcopal and non-denominational and charismatic, I got little pieces of Holy Spirit, but I just kind of struggled. And I think one of the reasons I struggled is that often, maybe like you, when I ask questions about Holy Spirit, I was like, “Well, you need to go read the book of Acts and read Acts 2.” And that's that beautiful moment of Pentecost where the spirit comes in and it's like a violent wind and tongues of fire.

 

They descend and people start speaking in other languages and other people hear they're declaring the glories of God. And then all of a sudden 3,000 people get saved. I think that is awesome.

 

But that doesn't look like my every day. So, I'm not quite sure. And so, for the last few years, I've been struggling to write this book.

 

And when I really came alive was with a scholar by the name of Jack Levison, and he focused in on the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament. And all of a sudden that changed everything for me. Because what happens is if we jump to Acts, and particularly Acts 2 to understand Holy Spirit, it would be like showing up on your wedding day and being like, this is who you're marrying.

 

And you're like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, I don't know this person. Like we haven't courted. We haven't dated.”

 

I don't, what, what, what? And yet that's often what we do as believers when we're directing people. And so, I took a deep dive into Holy Spirit throughout the Old Testament, looking at Genesis where Holy Spirit hovers over the waters, the chaos, the darkness, looking at how Holy Spirit hovers over our lives and how that's consistent with God, as in the book of Deuteronomy, as well as Jesus in the New Testament, that hovering like a, like a hen, I wanted to gather the children.

 

And you start to see this through it. You start to look in the lives of Bezalel, who was the first person who was filled with Holy Spirit, to do what to make and to make those, you know, the tabernacle and to lead an entire guild of artisans. We see the life of the Spirit in Daniel, where all of a sudden Nebuchadnezzar on multiple occasions is saying the Spirit of God is in him.

 

We have somebody who is literally running around like a wild animal at certain points in his life, who is still recognizing the power of Holy Spirit. I think it's the word in Hebrew is Ketria. We start seeing it in the life of Ezekiel, where the Holy Spirit is lifting him up, giving him new perspectives.

 

And what's cool is that once you start to recognize the rule of Holy Spirit in the Old Testament, you arrive at Acts 2 and you go, of course, it would happen this way. And suddenly for those of us who for maybe we've been hesitant about Holy Spirit, or maybe we've had maybe a lack of teaching or maybe some teaching that was a little bit abusive and was used to manipulate. Like all of a sudden we can back up from that and be like, oh, Holy Spirit, this is you from the beginning of time.

 

This is so normal. This isn't weird. This is just part of just being a follower of Jesus.

 

And so, one of the things that I love about this book is it takes the weird out, takes the scary out. It's so just biblically based, especially in the Old Testament. And I think some of your listeners and viewers will be surprised like, whoa, I didn't know that was, what?

 

That's where? And that's really fun and exciting.

 

Laura Dugger: (25:45 - 26:14) Absolutely. I think it did bring to light so many things from the Old Testament, like I said, especially. And I think you were even able to share some of your own stories, and that's why we're so often called to remember.

 

I think when we preserve and document those and share those stories, we can reflect back and remember God nudging us like he did with you, putting a thought in your mind that was not your own. That increases our faith in others, I think, as well.

 

Margaret Feinberg: (26:14 - 28:25) I think it really, really does. I think that one of the things we have to remember when Holy Spirit, so, in Psalm 139, we know that God knows he made us in the womb. And so, to recognize that all of us are made differently, and my hunches are some listeners right now who are thinking, man, yeah, I know people who talk a lot about Holy Spirit, but that's just not me.

 

I don't really see or enact or feel Holy Spirit. And so, first of all to you, I want to say I don't feel Holy Spirit either. I've been to a ton of churches and conferences, and the person on the stage will say, man, do you feel the Holy Spirit here?

 

And I'll be like, nope, nope, not at all. So, I'm not a feeler. But what I can do in those moments is I can acknowledge with my head, Holy Spirit is here, because we know that as part of the Trinity, Father, Son, Spirit, Holy Spirit is here.

 

And then secondly, to recognize that like Psalm, you know, that describes that He knew us in the womb, that we are all different. We know today that there's a neurodiversity, right? So, some people learn audio, some people visual, some people like myself, ADD, ADHD.

 

And God knows that, like the Creator did not make a mistake. And so, wouldn't it make sense that the Holy Spirit, who knows us as the spirit of a living God, would interact with us in different ways? I have an e-newsletter, and I've surveyed, you know, thousands of people, how they recognize the spirit, and it's just so diverse.

 

Some are like me, a thought pops back in my head that is not my own, that causes me to love God, love others, serve others, take risks in godly good ways. For other people, they do feel it. Some people have like a warmth in their body.

 

Some people kind of just feel like this, this just comfort or peace, like liquid love that envelops them. Some people recognize God and the Holy Spirit through nature. And so, I listen to this, and I think, doesn't that make sense that God and Holy Spirit would know us so well that He would know how to communicate with us?

 

And so, that when we start gathering with other believers and say, “Hey, how is Holy Spirit working in your life?” It starts to get this excitement of recognizing it and celebrating it and making it normal and not weird.

 

Laura Dugger: (28:28 - 28:48) And I think let's even take that one step further. So, if somebody is listening and they currently have trouble identifying the spirit's role or God's direction or Jesus's voice in their life, how would you encourage them with even first steps to grow in attention and recognition of His voice and leading?

 

Margaret Feinberg: (28:49 - 34:09) Goodness, that's such a great question. Something that's really changed my life in the last few months is my friend, Drake. He's a Young Life leader here.

 

And he said, Margaret, when I'm training people how to recognize Holy Spirit, he says, “I and the kids get a journal and write one question down for Holy Spirit each day. The question could be about purpose, identity, Holy Spirit, what's on your heart, Holy Spirit, who do I serve today? And write that one question down.”

 

That's it. That's all we're doing. And then throughout the day, return to that one question in prayer again and again.

 

And then pay attention to conversations that suddenly you have, Bible passages that flutter through your mind, the sermon that's given, conversations with other believers. Like just pay attention. And it's amazing.

 

And then the next day or that night, jot down whatever happens. The next day, change the question or keep the same question. And just start changing the posture of your life to pay attention to that one question.

 

And I think you're going to start to see and encounter some things. It may not happen quickly. It may take a few weeks or even months, but it will happen.

 

I think I was thinking about this just this morning. I haven't shared this with anybody. But in some ways, like people are like, I don't recognize Holy Spirit.

 

It's kind of like my friends who are birders. Okay. Some people super into birding.

 

And I know there are birds. I mean, occasionally I'll see a bird out the window, but birders have a whole different mentality. They slow down.

 

They pay attention. And they have some tools like binoculars to be able to look and to see. And it's the same thing about paying attention to Holy Spirit.

 

We've got to slow down, pay attention. And maybe the tool is just asking Holy Spirit one question a day. But suddenly you'll start to see and recognize.

 

Can I give you a fun story? Please. Okay.

 

So, just at Easter came around and I was probably a couple weeks before and they're having this crazy good sale at Target on some new releases. So, I'm at the Target website early in the morning before they sell out. And I saw a purse and I bought myself a few things.

 

But I saw a purse and I immediately thought of my friend Janella. And so, I was just like, I'm just going to buy this for her. Now, let me be clear.

 

I've never bought a purse for her before. I don't really carry around a ton of purses. I'm a Apple pay, like keep it light.

 

Like it's just not my thing. But put it in the cart, send it to her. So, I get a text from her about a week or two later.

 

And she goes, how did you know? Did I tell you about my Easter meltdown? And I said, no, I didn't know.

 

And she tells me, and I had known this, that her mother had passed away last year. What I didn't know is every single year, since she was a little girl for Easter, her mom would buy her a dress and a purse. And this was the first Easter without her mom.

 

And she could justify financially buying the dress, but not the purse. And all of a sudden this purse, which wasn't a normal purse. She's like, this is an Easter purse.

 

I was like, I don't know that, but okay. Arrived. And she said, I just, I just cried because I knew that the Lord saw me.

 

He heard me. You know, he was with me, part of his kingdom. And so, she says, but here's the thing.

 

The purse matched my dress perfectly. And you start to see that happen. And I didn't hear a voice from God say, go buy your friend a purse.

 

I was just like, “Hey, I've been praying every day, a single thing from Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit, will you order my steps?” And then you see something that you couldn't orchestrate on your own in 500 years happen.

 

And you go, that is the work of Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit in the New Testament, it's parakletos. It means advocate.

 

It can be translated comforter, advisor, barrister. For those of you watch too many British shows like I do, you know, the legal counsel. But if I were to kind of break that down from just biblical words, here's how we know it's the Holy Spirit.

 

Number one, Holy Spirit will remind you: God loves you. God sees you. God hears you.

 

And you're part of His kingdom. And what happened in that story was both of us experienced that. God loves, He sees, He hears, and we're part of His kingdom.

 

And so, that is the thrilling part about life in the Spirit. It's not so I feel good or I have little things that happen. It's about being part of God's kingdom on this earth, living out the life that Christ describes and designed for us.

 

And so, we cannot do that apart from Holy Spirit. And also, you may notice I haven't been using the term the Holy Spirit because we wouldn't say I talked to the God today. I talked to Jesus.

 

And Holy Spirit is a person; a person you can have a relationship with. And just as you can have a relationship with Christ and talk to Christ, you can do the same with Holy Spirit who is, again, paracletes, your advisor, your comforter, your helper. Why would you not tap into that?

 

Why would you want to spend a life missing out on the fullness of that?

 

Laura Dugger: (34:10 - 36:48) Oh, that's good, and I'll have to try and apply that and refer to Holy Spirit rather than I even did it there, the Holy Spirit. I'm thinking in the book of John, I love the amplified version where it says, “one of the things to describe Holy Spirit is standby.” And I've thought of that so many times because I love looking up definitions and seeing exactly what that means.

 

And it's just the immediacy of the help available. And that's been a way that I've experienced Him in my life especially the short prayers of help, please help now. Or if I need direction, a lot of times it comes in parenting for me, like, I'm not sure which way to go.

 

Can you give me discernment right now? And He's immediately available. So, I would say my own personal experience, it's a lot of what you've mentioned, definitely through reading the Bible that I feel like He speaks so much.

 

You're like, well, bring the words off the page. Journaling is such a practical way. And I'll link to our friend Chris Allen's episode just about hearing from God and training our kids on how they can do the same.

 

Just those thoughts that they're not always from us, but we're processing thoughts that are given to us. But one other thing, so, this is inspired from your book. You mentioned about dreams and just asking Holy Spirit to speak to you through dreams.

 

So, in our life currently, one of our daughters is going through some health issues and we were launched into having to do this FODMAP diet. And it's not that big of a deal, but I had never heard of it before. And it limits and restricts quite a few things.

 

So, the immediate need of that seemed a little bit overwhelming. We're kind of in a busy season and completely revamping everything our family eats all day. I've been preoccupied and kind of consumed with that.

 

So, twice this week, because in my quiet time I felt like God just kept saying, bring it to me, come to me with this, ask me the questions. And so, I've been journaling and I feel like He's been responding with Scripture. But the last two nights in a row, I've woken up with a recipe in mind for our family.

 

And that has never happened before. But you are the one who challenged us just to say, just ask. And that was probably, probably started asking over a month ago.

 

So, thank you.

 

Margaret Feinberg: (36:49 - 40:32) Wow. I love it. And you know what?

 

That makes me want to ask. Does that make sense? Like there's this excitement and there's this joy.

 

When you share about how Holy Spirit is working in your life, I'm like, I want that too. And that's just, yeah, I think that so often we forget who is with us.

 

The person, the person of Holy Spirit is with us. We don't have to keep all this striving and straining. And man, I got a life hack this on my own.

 

You know, there is this availability of the power and the presence of the person of Holy Spirit, the spirit of the living God. One thing I want to note on the Trinity, just so that I don't, I don't want anybody to think, oh, she's just cutting out one part of the Trinity. No.

 

Trinity is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. A couple of things on that. Number one, often, and part of the emphasis on the Holy Spirit, a little bit more in looking at this in the Old Testament, is when we see things in groupings of three, we tend to think that the third one listed tends to be lesser than or third place.

 

Right. And yet Father, Son and Spirit are equal. And what we see throughout the Bible is we have to remember that where there is one, all are present.

 

And so, like in creation, we see God take the lead. But, you know, Holy Spirit is mentioned in Genesis 1 to Jesus using the reference of we is there. And so, we start to see that the word, I think it's the word perichoresis is this term that describes the Trinity in a dance.

 

And so, at different parts of Scripture, we'll see one member of the Trinity take the lead, but the others are always present, whether it's, you know, Jesus taking the lead in the Gospels. But we see the Holy Spirit descending like a dove. We see God saying, this is my son and whom I am pleased.

 

Well, please listen to Him. And so, to recognize that, but also to recognize, again, like this, this reality that Holy Spirit is in us and with us. Like, wow, that starts to change everything.

 

So, all of a sudden, and you say, “It's no big deal changing the way your family eats. Can I just say that is an enormous deal. The time that it takes to prepare the food, the thinking, the thought space, the bad recipes, it is so big.”

 

So, you can try to minimize that. But I'm just going to say, “First of all, I'm glad there's a way forward, but I'm sorry, because that is massive. And it's a lot.”

 

And Holy Spirit wants to meet us there. Remember Genesis 1:2, “In the beginning, God created the heavenly earth and the earth was formless and void.” Tohu wavohu in the Hebrew.

 

“And the spirit was hovering over.” That word is merechefet. And it means to hover, to brood like a mama eagle.

 

One rabbi translated it as to flutter. And what is the spirit fluttering? Remember in the Bible, sorry to go to teaching mode, but whenever someone is introduced in scripture, the introduction is the most important.

 

We see that in the life of Saul. He literally is hiding in baggage and can't find his own donkeys. And it plays out that way, right?

 

So, how is Holy Spirit introduced? Could have entered any place and comes on the scene hovering over the chaos, the uncertainty, and the unknown. And so, here you are in that place of uncertainty and unknown, a little chaotic.

 

And what is Holy Spirit? Here's a recipe. 

 

Doing what? Reminding you, you are loved by God. You are seen by God.

 

You are heard by God. And you are part of this kingdom. Man, when we start to share these stories, it just, oh, it creates this hunger to experience and know the spirit more.

 

Laura Dugger: (40:32 - 42:02) It does, and it's so humbling, just his loving kindness. 

 

I want to make sure that you're up to date with our latest news. We have a new website.

 

You can visit thesavvysauce.com and see all of the latest updates. You may remember Francie Heinrichson from episode 132, where we talked about pursuing our God-given dreams. She is the amazing businesswoman who has carefully designed a brand-new website for Savvy Sauce Charities.

 

And we are thrilled with the final product. So, I hope you check it out. There you're going to find all of our podcasts, now with show notes and transcriptions listed, a scrapbook of various previous guests, and an easy place to join our email list to receive monthly encouragement and questions to ask your loved ones, so that you can have your own practical chats for intentional living.

 

You will also be able to access our donation button or our mailing address for sending checks that are tax deductible, so that you can support the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and help us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. So, make sure you visit thesavvysauce.com. 

 

Are there any other stories that come to mind to think of Holy Spirit being alive and moving and working in people's lives today?

 

Margaret Feinberg: (42:03 - 46:15) Oh, I'll give you one that I just found. You know what's so funny? Again, when you start to use the prayer prompts, when you start to do these just like a burger, all of a sudden you're like, oh my goodness, I didn't know how many birds there were.

 

So, went over to our friend's house. It was somebody at church. We actually, they weren't our friends at that point.

 

We noticed that when they came to our church, the son is on the spectrum. And so, in Sunday school class would often just stare at the wall in the corner by himself, not interact a whole lot, and their daughter. And so, my husband said, hey, let's bring a meal over to them.

 

And they invited us to stay for dinner. And so, the son comes in and he's probably maybe nine years old, wrapped up in a blanket, like a little burrito. And he won't make any eye contact with us.

 

You know, the mom's like, say, “Hello to Margaret.” Won't interact. Kind of woombas around, disappears, comes through a few times.

 

Finish eating. We go out in the living room. And the mom starts telling the story that she was exhausted as a mom.

 

She was completely burnt out. And she just said, “You know what? I'm going to the reservoir and I'm going to go paddle boarding.”

 

Just take a few minutes for myself. So, she goes out. She's paddle boarding.

 

All of a sudden she sees like a piece of paper on the surface of the water. She looks down and she goes, what is that? So, she picks it up.

 

Turns out to be a QR code to the zoo. Now, she doesn't know if it's used trash or what, but she's like, I'm going to keep this. She paddles some more, sees another piece of paper.

 

It's another QR code to the zoo. She's like, maybe they blew away from the, I don't, so, she grabs it. And she prays and she says, Lord, now you know that we're a family of four.

 

So, if we're really supposed to go to the zoo, we need four of these. Keeps paddle boarding. Finds two more.

 

And so, she comes home and says, “Guys, we're going to try to go to the zoo. I don't even know if these work.” But next day goes to the zoo, scans them.

 

Boop, boop, boop, boop. They all work. So, they go to the zoo.

 

So, they're walking through. And all of a sudden, the son comes upon a display of red pandas. And he just stops in his tracks.

 

And he stares and he watches. And the rest of the family, you know, the sister and the dad want to go on and they do. But he just says, “Mom, can we stay here?”

 

And so, he stays there for several hours just staring in this strange connection. He's never had, Mom had never seen anything like this with the red pandas. And so, she's telling me this story.

 

And suddenly I look around their living room and I realize there is panda paraphernalia everywhere. She looks at her son and says, “Honey, why don't you go put on your panda outfit?” Disappears, comes back in the panda outfit.

 

And all of a sudden, he's looking at us. He's talking to us. He's engaging us.

 

He goes over to his parents and paws them like a panda. And all of a sudden is snuggling with them. And she says that one encounter at the zoo changed their relationship with their son.

 

She says there are days that my son will get completely overwhelmed and start having a meltdown. And she'll use panda language and go up to him and say, “Well, you know that pandas eat 13 hours a day. Maybe you need a snack.”

 

And it is provided this connection and this new language for them as a family that they never had before. All because she went paddle boarding at the reservoir and pieces of paper started floating on the surface of the water. Friends, this is the work and power and presence of Holy Spirit.

 

Reminding us we are loved by God. We are seen by God. We are heard by God.

 

And we are part of this kingdom. And for your listeners, that may be strange stories of paper. And that may seem really odd.

 

But, man, I read a book that talks about Jesus saying, “Hey, go check out the fish.” And all of a sudden a coin to pay taxes comes out of his mouth. I read a book that declares that, you know, he is the alpha and the omega.

 

He is the beginning and the end. He knows where we are. He knows what we need.

 

And He wants to intercept. And sometimes that shows up like recipes in your brain in the morning.

 

Laura Dugger: (46:16 - 47:27) Amen, sister. And you can keep sharing as many stories as you want. But one more.

 

As I was reading your book, it was actually over Easter weekend. And at that time we had some tornadoes that were passing through the Midwest where we live. And in the middle of the night, we're all up.

 

We're in the basement. And once the sirens ceased, we got our girls back to bed. And we came and I just wondered, we came back to bed and I thought, is this just going to be for a few moments?

 

Is it going to happen again? Are we going to be up all night and need to take cover? So, with those concerns on my mind, I crawled back into bed.

 

And, you know, cortisol is kind of rushing through. So, I picked up your book to read. And my eyes fell to the words you quoted from part of Isaiah 31:5.

 

So, I specifically fell to this where it says, “He will shield it and deliver it. He will pass over it and will rescue it.” And I fell asleep well knowing that I could receive comfort from Holy Spirit, that the storm had passed for the night and God was shielding our family from it.

 

And indeed He did. They ceased.

 

Margaret Feinberg: (47:28 - 47:42) Isn't that incredible? I mean, we talk about I mean, just that's the word of God and the power of Holy Spirit, like speaking right in that moment in that exact situation. That is awesome.

 

Absolutely awesome. I love it.

 

Laura Dugger: (47:43 - 48:17) So, I love just Holy Spirit is even working through the words on your pages. I want you to be encouraged. I know you've prayed over this resource, but it's so incredible.

 

Somebody once said that books are little missionaries. And it's so true throughout the world. You have no idea who's cuddled up in bed reading these words and getting to encounter him.

 

So, thank you for all of your work for this. But Margaret, do you have any other practical tips that you want to impart to us so that each of us can cultivate the fruit of spirit in our lives?

 

Margaret Feinberg: (48:18 - 50:39) Yeah, I would say, you know, if you're if you're new to this and this idea, you know, pick up a copy of The Gods You Need to Know. There's also a Bible study. I am passionate about doing this in community.

 

The Holy Spirit, we often in the Americana church, think of our little personal private relationship with Jesus. And that's not church history. That's not the work of God.

 

Since the beginning of time, it has always been through relationships and community and recognizing that each of us has something to bring to the table in relationship with God and each other and gifts and talents and insights. I am in my questions. I think I referred to this later or earlier about, you know, I surveyed a bunch of people in my newsletter just about, hey, so, how do you recognize Holy Spirit?

 

One lady responded and she said, “Well, I recognize Holy Spirit because whenever I'm lost, I ask Holy Spirit for directions, and I just know where to go.” And she goes and it happens over and over in, you know, neighborhoods when I'm driving, when I'm going places. And I thought, okay, so, first I'll just be honest. My first thought was that's weird. I haven't heard that before.

 

And we assign anything weird that we aren't familiar with. And then I thought a little longer. I thought, man, I want her on my team.

 

I want her on my team because I get lost all the time. And I think that at times, sometimes we encounter people who encounter the Spirit differently than us. Remember that neurodiversity, but to recognize living in relationship, hearing how Holy Spirit works in different, sharing those stories.

 

There's something contagious and powerful in it. So, I would say definitely pursue Holy Spirit in relationship with others. Get together with others.

 

Start talking about this. Start praying together. Holy Spirit, we want to know you.

 

You know, it's okay to say, Holy Spirit, in the past, I've seen really unhealthy things. Or nobody's really taught me about you. But I trust that as the Spirit of the living God that you want to reveal yourself.

 

Just start praying, Holy Spirit, I want all of you. See what happens over the course of a week or two of praying that.

 

And what you become aware of. What Bible passages flutter through your mind. What conversations you suddenly stumble upon.

 

What answers to things you've been plagued with suddenly come. I trust God that if you ask and you honestly pursue, God will show up and show off.

 

Laura Dugger: (50:41 - 51:45) I completely agree. And now I'm curious to look up. I feel like the Lord has kind of put on my mind the word weird this year a few times.

 

Because truly, when you think of what he did, even in the Old Testament, think of Noah, just like, okay, I'm obeying. I'm putting nails in this wood for never seeing rain. It's weird what we're called to sometimes.

 

And I think that's what can make me hesitate for obedience sometimes. Like, that feels weird. Or I don't want people to think I'm weird.

 

So, I'm going to look up the definition of weird. I'd love to read it to you. Okay, so, I just looked up the definition of weird.

 

And it says, suggesting something supernatural or uncanny. And I think we should reframe the word weird. And when we're invited into something weird by supernatural God of the universe, that's an incredible invitation, like you say, to adventure.

 

So, I hope we can embrace the weird.

 

Margaret Feinberg: (51:47 - 54:41) And to recognize that feeling of, I don't want to do this. This feels strange. That is universal.

 

That is not you. That is not unique. And for all of our listeners and viewers, I have it.

 

Everybody has it. When we're trying to discern, you know, if something is prompted by the Holy Spirit, number one, is this, does this align with scripture? And does it align with the character of God?

 

Does it increase my dependence on God? Which means it's probably going to go against my natural instinct, which unfortunately is pretty self-word rather than outward. Does it cause me to love God and love others more?

 

And so, of course, Holy Spirit is going to be working in this expansive ground to pull us away from our self-word direction outward. And that is always going to be stretching and feel strange. And sometimes we're not going to see the outcome.

 

And we've got to become comfortable with that. We are not responsible for the outcome. We are responsible for obedience.

 

Some time ago, I swim a lot. And I just felt just in my gut, like, talk to the person in the lane next to you. And so, I go out swimming, and he's next to me, and I'm like, okay.

 

And so, I started this conversation with this elderly gentleman. And I'll just be honest. It was more like a non-versation.

 

I mean, we talked about sports ball teams and the weather and nothing. I really cared. Nothing deep.

 

Nothing meaningful. And on one hand, maybe I misheard. Okay.

 

But no harm, no foul. I mean, I showed kindness to a stranger. Loved others.

 

Like, there's no, like, okay. You know, on the other hand, I will never know what might have happened. Maybe he felt left alone.

 

Maybe he felt seen. But the outcome doesn't matter. And so, there are going to be times that we step out, and we see it, and we encounter it, and it's so exciting.

 

And there's going to be other times that we go to that thing, and we go, Lord, I didn't even know what that was. But maybe that was about quick obedience. You know, almost like building a muscle, getting stronger to say, you did it then.

 

I'm going to keep challenging. I'm going to give you opportunities to do this again and again. Because I want you on the front lines of, you know, eyes are searching to and fro for people who are, you know, obedient, quick to respond, that Holy Spirit wants to use.

 

And so, know that not seeing a result, totally normal. Keep going. Keep going.

 

Because you will see responses sometimes. And it is awesome. And in part of that, it's almost like building a muscle that I think God is so gracious and so loving kind that he will show you, like, quick outcomes sometimes when you respond to that little impulse to keep you going.

 

But there are going to be times you're not going to see them, but he's still at work. Because, again, you may be one of 17 people in a long chain where the fruit or the outcome as part of God's kingdom is still coming. And after a while, it's fine to be number 4, 7, 9.

 

You don't always have to be number 17.

 

Laura Dugger: (54:42 - 55:06) That's so good. That is such the biblical principle of being faithful with little. And then sometimes He allows us to be faithful with much.

 

And, Margaret, this is not your only resource that you've written for all of us to enjoy. Can you share some of your other resources and what's available or what you've learned that we may learn if we pick up a copy?

 

Margaret Feinberg: (55:06 - 56:31) Yeah. You know, I've definitely the most passive. I just gave four years of my life to this book and Bible study.

 

I do a ridiculous amount of research, so, I'm very, very slow. So, top would be The God You Need to Know book and Bible study. But I think another one, and you referenced it earlier, is a book called Fight Back with Joy, and it's also a Bible study.

 

And it just takes a look. You know, it tells a little bit about my cancer story, but it's really about anybody who's battling anything. You know, sometimes in life we pick the battles, and sometimes the battles pick us.

 

And sometimes that's in your marriage, maybe a custody battle. It may be a health issue. It may be a financial calamity.

 

It may be the loss of a business. There's just so much in a strange relationship with a kid that you love so much. And in that darkness, you know, it's so easy to sink.

 

And this book and study is just, it shows that more than whimsy, joy is the weapon we use to fight life's battles. And gives just tons of practical tactics on how to enact that and what that looks like, and how, most importantly, how to rally around others in a healthy, beautiful way when they are in the midst of that. I think one of the failures of the church today is to really equip and train believers of every size and form of how to love others well in the midst of their pain.

 

What to say, what not to say, how to give, how to support. And this book and resource really does that well.

 

Laura Dugger: (56:32 - 56:43) Oh, so grateful for all of those. We'll make sure and add a link in the show notes. And if we want to connect or follow you after today's conversation, where would you like to direct us online?

 

Margaret Feinberg: (56:44 - 57:09) You can find me at my website at Margaret Feinberg. I do my most loving of my people, I'll just be honest, through my e-newsletter. I mean, I sit down, I pray over, I pour my heart and my life into that.

 

It's quiet. Nobody ever sees it. I am also on socials, on Instagram, at Facebook, at MA Feinberg, at Margaret Feinberg.

 

But I would love to connect with you. And if anybody wants to email, my email is hello@margaretfeinberg.com.

 

Laura Dugger: (57:09 - 57:26) Love it. Thank you for sharing all of that. And you may be aware that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment.

 

And so, as my final question for you today, Margaret, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Margaret Feinberg: (57:27 - 58:05) My savvy sauce is waking up every day and asking the Holy Spirit one question. When I don't know what to pray, I just say, “Holy Spirit, order my steps.” And if you will do this, you will do this for just 15 days.

 

I have a belief. It may just change the course of your life. The great part, it takes less than 30 seconds.

 

This is not doing heavy lifting. This is not time consuming, man. If you're raising those littles and you are overwhelmed, if you're running a business and you are overwhelmed, something very simple like this can change everything.

 

Laura Dugger: (58:06 - 58:10) So good. And you are so obviously connected to the vine, to the Lord. And I just want you to receive this, the fruit of the spirit.

 

I have experienced every single one in this conversation from engaging with you today. You are loving, joy, peace, patient, kind, good, faithful, gentle, and self-controlled. And all wrapped into one.

 

So, praise the Lord for the way He made you. You are an absolute delight. I have enjoyed this so much.

 

Thank you for being my guest.

 

Margaret Feinberg: (58:10 - 58:11) What a privilege and joy. Grateful for you.

 

Laura Dugger: (58:11 - 1:02:30) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news. 

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. 

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him. 

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin. 

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. 

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him. 

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started. 

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. 

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. 

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process. 

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. 

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Teaching our Children about Finances: Special Patreon Release with Markie Castle

Special Patreon Release: Teaching our Children about Finances with Markie Castle

 

1 Timothy 6:6-10 (NIV) "But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs."

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Markie Castle is a wife of 41 years, mother of 3 and is blessed with 7 grandchildren. After teaching at ICC for 20 years, she retired to help take care of all those blessings! Her husband Bob and she have been living in Peoria and attending Bethany Baptist Church for 24 years.  She has been coaching on finances and families for over 30 years.

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. What is one key to managing our personal relationship with finances?
2. What have been the most unexpected benefits of coaching your sons on wise financial stewardship?
3. How did you teach your children to allocate percentages their money?

 

Thank You to Our Sponsors: WinShape Marriage

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:09)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:20) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

I'm thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, WinShape Marriage. Their weekend marriage retreats will strengthen your marriage while you enjoy the gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org/savvy.

 

I first met Markie Castle through a local mom's group that was gathering at a church, and she was the speaker.

 

I was drawn to her sense of humor, her storytelling, and her wise practices. Her practical applications that she's going to explain near the end of this episode are practices that my husband Mark and I plan to implement beginning today. I'm so excited to share all of that with each of us listening now.

 

Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Markie.

 

Markie Castle: (1:21 - 1:22) It's a pleasure to be here.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:22 - 1:34) Well, will you just start us off by sharing more about your family and, specifically, the parenting piece that you say you got right by intentionally focusing on it?

 

Markie Castle: (1:35 - 4:13) I'd love to. I am incredibly blessed to be married to my husband, Bob, and we had three children that blessed us with wonderful wives and grandchildren. My husband and I started our marriage with him in school and me on a beginning teaching salary.

 

Today's dollars, it would be worth about $38,000. The two of us were living on $38,000 a year with him in school at the U of I and paying significant tuition. We were paying the tuition as well as supporting ourselves on that salary.

 

We were blessed to have a son three years later and then another son two years after that. My husband was holding a two-year-old and a two-week-old in his cap and gown. I remember showing our three sons’ pictures of us saying, don't do this.

 

We supported ourselves entirely. We also did not see that we were in dire straits. We made my salary work by living in small apartments.

 

With one landlord, we made an agreement with him that we would do extra work around the property for a deduction in rent. We just made it work. We never saw any of this as a negative.

 

We also did not see that putting purchases on a credit card that we could not pay off at the end of the month as an option. We were happy where we were at and we loved it. My husband got a job and we moved out of the area.

 

We were at the time in Champaign-Urbana area. We moved to the Peoria area. We had a third son, which gave us three children in four years.

 

We still saw the need to keep our budget under control. Our meals were determined by what was on sale, what we had coupons for. Clothes were only bought on sale or from consignment shops.

 

Again, we never saw credit card debt as an option. If we didn't have the money, we didn't buy it. We wanted to raise our children to have a respect for money and to have an awareness of contentment.

 

We also wanted to have them experience the joy of having money to give away. This is what helped us. This is how we felt and we wanted to share that with our sons.

 

Laura Dugger: (4:14 - 4:37) I love that and I can just imagine all of the character building that comes out of really seeking to be wise stewards of what the Lord's entrusted to you. I'm wondering if you had some guiding scriptures on this topic of finances that really gave you insight into godly wisdom rather than the worldly kind.

 

Markie Castle: (4:38 - 9:05) As we know, besides love, money is written more in the Bible than anything else. It is so wise to go to the Bible for this. Luke 14:28 is such a good verse for a base.

 

It says, “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won't you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it?” This is stating that we should budget our money and plan before we build a tower or buy a car or even buy a new blouse that you may want.

 

Another verse, 1Timothy 6:6-10 speaks to another extremely important part of leading a God-centered life, being content. It states, “But godliness with contentment is great gain for we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. Some people eager for money have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.”

 

It reminds us of where our minds should be. We have heard many talks on finances, budgeting, etc. Very little time, if any, is spent on being content.

 

Even in the Christian financial counseling speakers, they do not spend time on this. Not only is it scriptural, it is something that makes budgeting and spending so much easier. If you are content, you don't feel that need to spend and let alone overspend.

 

It just makes budgeting so much easier. Matthew 6:24 is very blunt to the point. It says, “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.”

 

It's not just what you have in your bank account. It's are we serving the Lord or are we serving money by needing a bigger house or whatever. Serving money over God can mean so many things. It can mean making secret purchases that you are hiding from your spouse.

 

I had a friend who used to have her sister buy her shoes that she wanted. And then she would bring them into the house without her husband knowing. But she had her sister buy it so her husband didn't see it on the credit card.

 

Or it can mean buying a brand-new car you can't afford and you go into debt for it. There is scripture that addresses this also in Romans 13:8 states, “Owe no one anything except to love each other.” And Proverbs 22:7 states, “The borrower is the slave of the lender.”

 

This is not to say a person should never have a loan. We needed a loan for our house. It was a smart move because we would have just paid rent forever.

 

But we needed a house and at the time we didn't have money for a house. Especially since my husband just got out of school. But when we were going looking at houses, the realtor said, “But you can afford this.”

 

And it was a much bigger house than we needed. And we said, “No, we don't need this.” “Yes, but you can get this.”

 

“Yes, I know, but this one's just fine.” We bought a house that we were able to pay off quickly. And we were very happy with it.

 

Laura Dugger: (9:07 - 9:30) I love hearing how you've applied scripture to your own lives, because really the ones that you shared, those are so practical and actionable. And we didn't even scratch the surface of all, like you said, that the Bible has to speak about money. But if you kind of had to boil it down, what would you say is one key to managing our personal relationship with finances?

 

Markie Castle: (9:30 - 13:58) I truly, truly believe that being content is truly key. It's so easy to become frustrated and discouraged with what you have. And many, many people watch HGTV.

 

And I personally love it. There are times that I cannot watch HGTV because I start wanting this or wanting that. When I watch it, it makes me start thinking if I only had a bigger kitchen or buying new furniture would transform this room.

 

All of these things can distract us into thinking about all the things I don't have, rather than seeing the things I do have. It can be a very dark road. But there's ways of overcoming that too.

 

I love for people to write down things that you do have, especially the important things like your family, your friends, your church community. Those are the things that are far more important than a bigger kitchen. I know for me, our house, when I moved into our house, I didn't even see our house when we purchased it because we thought we'd only be here three to four years max.

 

So, I figured three to four years, I don't need to see a house. I wanted it in a certain area and I needed four bedrooms for all of us. And that was about it.

 

Well, I knew I'd be here three to four years. And I think we're coming up to 25 years in August of being here. God had other plans for us.

 

And that was it. The kitchen is not what I would have chosen. It's rather small.

 

And do you know when I get most frustrated is when our family is over and we have 20 people and they're all in the kitchen. And I've got all these grandkids running around getting in the way. And I get frustrated over the smaller kitchen.

 

Think about it. I have my family here making memories. It's wonderful.

 

I'll take a small kitchen with all my family before I take a big kitchen without them. It was interesting. I taught at ICC.

 

And I walked into class one time and all the students were talking about how little they had, how poor they were. And I just listened to them for a while. And they were saying they didn't have any money.

 

And I said, “I don't mean to brag, but I am really, really wealthy.” And they looked and they said, “Really?” And I said, “Yeah, really wealthy.”

 

And he said, “Must be nice.” I said, “Yeah, it really is.” I said, “Do you realize that my husband and I, we have two cars?”

 

And they kind of looked at me and they said, “Yeah.” I said, “No, no, no, no. Do you understand that when I walk into my house, I have heat in the winter?

 

And, and air conditioning in the summer.” And they kind of looked at me and go, “Yeah.” And I said, “And I can go to this faucet and I can turn this handle and fresh water comes out.”

 

They all looked and said, “Yeah.” And I said, “That is how wealthy I am.” And they all kind of looked and they said, “We get it.”

 

And we are very wealthy in this country. We are very wealthy. See, having what you have could be seen as extremely wealthy in many countries.

 

Even when it's their norm. But with war-torn countries, it's even worse. It's just all about perspective.

 

Laura Dugger: (13:58 - 14:10) Well, I think you're highlighting the keys to contentment. It's all about perspective and also gratitude. How would you define stewardship?

 

Markie Castle: (14:11 - 14:19) I would just say it's taking great care of what God has given us and using it for his glory.

 

Laura Dugger: (14:19 - 14:27) Well, and what has been the most unexpected benefit of coaching your sons on wise financial stewardship?

 

Markie Castle: (14:28 - 17:52) That is such a great question. I would say the independence that they had as teenagers and adults. It was incredible to see how they were independent with money and other ways because of it.

 

Each son also married women who were financially aware. We never really talked about that. When our children got married, we had one stipulation that they married a believer for us to bless the marriage.

 

But it was amazing that they all married women who were financially conservative. We have never had any trouble or issues with any of our children with money. I know that some people will say, you never lend relatives money, you give it to them because you know you'll never get it back.

 

Well, we have lent our kids money for certain predicaments when they first started off and they started paying us back immediately. There's a lot of talk about whether you should let your children move back into your house. Now, I know people have said, “Nope, once my kids are gone, they're gone.”

 

And I don't think that's very loving. I think that anybody is allowed back, you know, if they need to come back and live with us, even if it's somebody in our church family, they would be welcomed. All three of our boys at some point came back to live with us for a while for different reasons.

 

And we actually charged them rent. And they were very good with that. In fact, they liked it because then they weren't freeloading.

 

Now, they didn't know it at the time, but we took their rent and put it away and kept it separately. And then when they moved out, they had a nice little sum there that they could use for a down payment for their house or for moving costs or whatever. I think it's important to watch your children grow, to give them.

 

And these are the things that we have seen that we didn't expect. All of our boys are very financially secure. And they only have mortgage debt, which they are all paying off quicker than what was scheduled.

 

And this is just a mindset. They are not suffering because they don't have the new car. In fact, our one son and his wife, they bought our old van 10 years ago, and they still have it.

 

They're at 195,000 miles on the car. Now, I think she wears this like a badge of honor. She's going to make it to 200,000.

 

They have been putting money away for a new car. They have enough money to buy a new car, but they're going to wait until they need it. And when they need it, they're going to be able to go in and say, here is the money for the car.

 

I don't need a loan. Those are the things that kind of surprised me.

 

Laura Dugger: (17:53 - 17:58) I think oftentimes there's a lot of joy when we have limits.

 

Markie Castle: (17:59 - 18:04) Exactly. I agree with you. It does give you joy to know that you have that freedom.

 

Laura Dugger: (18:06 - 18:22) Well, and we've spoken kind of about big picture, and I'd love to move in the funnel now down to actionable and practical. So, when you look back, how old were your children when you and Bob began training them on finances?

 

Markie Castle: (18:24 - 19:08) Truly, as soon as our children understood the meaning of money, we started. We started our oldest son when he was five years old by giving him allowance. The others started when they were four because they saw what was happening with the older child.

 

And I know a lot of people relate to this and they wanted to be a part of it. You know, your younger ones sometimes learn faster because of the older ones. It was important to start when they were wanting things at the stores, whether it was toys or candy at the checkout aisle, etc.

 

They needed an awareness that everything costs money and they couldn't have everything.

 

Laura Dugger: (19:09 - 19:32) Well, and I remember you coming to speak to our mom’s group one time. And even if somebody is wondering, well, how do I keep this fair between children? You even had a solution for that because with your kids at the different ages, I remember you saying you started them with one dollar per year old they were per week.

 

So, the four-year-old only made four dollars for the five-year-old made five.

 

Markie Castle: (19:33 - 21:21) That's right. Well, and it's funny you say about the fairness. Even when our children, so we had three boys, they were all two years apart, so they were really involved with one another.

 

They were great friends. But I remember going to my husband's mom was watching our children when we ran to get something to do a few errands. And we came back with a pair of shoes that our oldest child needed.

 

And she looked at us and said she didn't get anything for the other boys. And I said, but they didn't need new shoes and they don't need anything. And she goes, but you can't bring something in for one child without bringing in something for the others.

 

And I reiterated, but they didn't need anything. And do you know what? Our boys, we never thought anything of that.

 

Our boys have never said, well, why didn't I get anything? And if they did, we'd say, “Well, you didn't need this or you didn't need that.” Our children never counted what the other ones have.

 

Now saying that when it came to the birthdays, we gave the same monetary value to all of them when it came to Christmas, when it came to things. But when it really came to that, one son needed a pair of shoes, but the others didn't. We didn't go out and get shoes for all of them.

 

And they just were raised with that. And to this day, they all know that it all comes out fairly in the end. You know, we don't bring home things just for one, the same child every time.

 

Does that make sense?

 

Laura Dugger: (21:21 - 21:32) Yeah, absolutely. And I appreciate that perspective. I'm also curious, were there any other memorable phrases you and your husband taught your children?

 

Markie Castle: (21:33 - 26:37) You know, there were many. One of the things we had said to them was we can afford anything. But we can't afford everything.

 

So, we would impress upon them how fortunate we were to afford things. But we certainly can't afford everything. We had friends who would never purchase soda and we did the same thing.

 

But they really like to travel and the kids like to travel. And so, they wouldn't buy a soda in a restaurant or buy a snack at the mall because they wanted to travel. And they would ask their kids, you know, would you rather purchase a soda or snack now or enjoy the soda or snack in Europe?

 

And it made the kids think. OK, so again, this is all in what you choose. I was listening to someone at a talk and actually at a moment at our church that said, “You know, what could you save if you didn't get your daily latte from Starbucks?”

 

And I'm thinking, OK, and his point was at six dollars per drink. You could say. And I figured this out, two thousand one hundred and eighty-four dollars per year.

 

After two years, you could have enough money to go to Hawaii. Now, that's great. This particular person loves to travel and he doesn't like coffee.

 

So, to him, it was a no brainer. But if someone doesn't like to travel. But enjoys that daily vacation of going to Starbucks.

 

This may be the one they would choose. So, we're all different in what we like and what we want. But.

 

The important thing is, is that you're not adding this to a debt that you're paying 24 percent interest because that six dollar cup of coffee is actually going to cost you much more than the six dollars. Also, I was teaching a group of nearly married couples about finances and. Someone brought up that they can't afford a date night.

 

I mean, after babysitting, after dinner at the restaurant, etc. they can't afford that. And babysitting nowadays is ridiculously expensive. And another couple said that they have date nights every other week.

 

What they do is they trade off with another couple for babysitting and they pack a dinner and go on a picnic. So, basically, their date night costs them nothing. Not being able to afford an expensive dinner for a date night.

 

That puts you in a mindset that you're doing without. Instead, look at what you have. You know, taking a hike.

 

Visiting a museum on a free day. Getting a membership to places that you could then feel like you're going for free. Walking along the river.

 

All of these are wonderful ways to have a date night. My husband and I would have a date night in our home. We would feed the boys their favorite chicken nuggets and macaroni and cheese.

 

And we put them to bed. We would then, I would get out and have tablecloth and have candlelight. And we would have a quiet adult meal by candlelight.

 

It was a wonderful date night. And it cost us nothing. Now, where we were, we could not afford babysitting.

 

And we did not have people who could babysit. We didn't have a community that we could share babysitting. We did find that as the kids got older.

 

And we utilized that, which was wonderful. We used to share a Friday night with a family. This is when the kids were a little older.

 

And we would switch with them. Every other Friday night, we would switch kids. We would take their kids for one of the Fridays.

 

And then two weeks later, they would take our kids. And they took them overnight. So, we had, you know, Friday evening and Saturday morning.

 

And it cost us nothing. And the joy of that was when we took their kids, it was a blast. Because we always planned on doing extra special things.

 

Because it was like one big party. It worked very well. And we were able to have free babysitting just because we exchanged.

 

As opposed to paying for a babysitter.

 

Laura Dugger: (26:38 - 29:02) And I love the creativity. How you problem solved that to still go for your date night. Because that was a value.

 

And I think you're empowering all of us that these options are possible. And we do have a choice in this situation. And then also the reality that we're going to operate within the reality of trade-offs.

 

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And as you and Bob continued to train your children with finances, how did you see this play out with each of their different personalities?

 

Markie Castle: (29:04 - 32:55) Although we raised our boys within the same manner, we were blessed with three totally different children. Totally. When it came to money, one was a saver, one was a spender, and one was a minimalist.

 

And although they all were different, they all needed the structure of financial awareness. So, our eldest wanted to save every dime that he was given. And you know what?

 

He's still that way. He wants to save, save, save, save, save. Our middle child would spend every dime that he would receive.

 

It would not be in his pocket for more than a couple of minutes. Then our youngest child didn't care about buying anything, which was very different from the saver. He was just a minimalist.

 

I don't need anything. It just doesn't matter. And he is still that way.

 

So, our spender needed to learn the importance of budgeting and saving. They all needed to learn it, but it was extremely important for him. And he did learn.

 

When he was about 10 or 11, he lost some money for not doing certain chores. And he looked at us and said, the only reason you had children was to make money. My husband and I were literally speechless.

 

We kind of just looked at him and we didn't know what to say. And then he just looked at us after a couple of moments and he said, that's the stupidest thing I've ever said. And yep, we all had a good laugh.

 

He did learn to budget and it was interesting. So, when he was in high school and starting to date, he took this girl that he wound up dating for several years. And he was going to go to the movies and he was a gentleman.

 

He was absolutely a gentleman. And they walked into the movies and he paid for the movies because that's what you do. And then as they were walking past the concession stand, he said, “Well, do you want popcorn?”

 

And she said, “Oh, that'd be nice.” And he said, “Okay, well, you're going to need to get it yourself. I'm not paying those prices.”

 

And she was kind of, ”Okay.” Now we needed to teach him a little bit more about dating with that. But it was like he paid for the movies.

 

He wasn't going to pay $10 for a box of popcorn. So, he had learned the value of money. When you can get into the movie for less money than a box of popcorn, there's something to be thought about that.

 

I am happy to say that while he did not marry her, but I'm happy to say that he did marry someone and he learned to budget. And she is all about budget, budget, budget. But that also means that they are able to enjoy, enjoy, enjoy.

 

I think budget gets a really bad name because you think that means that you can't buy things if you budget. And I see it as the exact opposite. If I budget $50 for entertainment, for the month, for the week, for whatever, you can enjoy having that entertainment because that's money that is free and clear for you to use.

 

Laura Dugger: (32:56 - 33:14) Yeah, I'm with you on that too, because I do think that self-control that really is a fruit of the spirit, but that discipline and self-control leads to freedom eventually. And so, again, those limits provide joy and freedom, which is counterintuitive, but the Lord's economy.

 

Markie Castle: (33:14 - 33:34) That's right. But once you do it, you realize, and we have seen this happen, that they go, “Oh, I feel better about going to the movies because it's already been planned, which goes back to when you build a tower, you should plan that.”

 

Laura Dugger: (33:35 - 33:43) You've mentioned that you did offer an allowance. So, what were your allowance or commission guidelines?

 

Markie Castle: (33:44 - 35:58) So, there's many trains of thought with this. We felt that there were certain chores that needed to be done as part of the household. So, making your bed, setting the table, helping with dinner, cleaning up the dishes, sweeping the floor.

 

Obviously, our children were expected to do more as they got older. I would give them opportunities, though, to do over and beyond, and then they could make extra money. So, there were certain expectations on a daily basis, and that was part of being part of the household, being part of the family.

 

But to go over and beyond would give us the time. Now, I do know some people pay for everything that they do, and I understand where they're coming from with that, but then they may choose not to make their bed or choose not to set the table because they don't want the money, but then other people need the table to be set. So, that can cause issues, too.

 

We never, when it came to grades, I know that's something that's talked about, we never paid for certain grades in school. We did allow them, you know, at the time it was, well, if you get this many A's, you can get a pizza or something, you know, from Pizza Hut or something. We would do that, but we never paid for specific grades for our kids.

 

There was an expectation that they would do well, not for the money. But we would all go out and celebrate when they all had good report cards. So, I know that there's different trains of thought with that.

 

You know, there are some others who will put a price on certain chores and have the allowance reflect that money they made. Our boys received their allowance, but there were times that we charged them when we needed to do their chore, like pick up their clothes in the bathroom after they've been asked to do so. So, if we did something, we kind of charged them for it.

 

And that's when our son said, well, you just had children to make money.

 

Laura Dugger: (35:59 - 37:14) Guess what? We are no longer an audio only podcast. We now have video included as well.

 

If you want to view the conversation each week, make sure you watch our videos. We're on YouTube and you can access videos or find answers to any of your other questions about the podcast when you visit thesavvysauce.com.

 

With our family, our daughters currently are nine, eight, six, and four. And so, they have the understanding of give, save, spend. But just this summer, our sweet and very generous neighbor, Jillian, James and Jillian, have hired our oldest two, Sayla and Shiloh, to water their plants while they're traveling. And so, this is their first paid job opportunity.

 

And so, my plan with my husband is to train our girls with this podcast. And there's a question I want to ask you next that I believe will even guide us with our conversation and how to train them. So, when your children were earning money or making this allowance, even from a young age, how did you teach them to split their money?

 

Markie Castle: (37:16 - 42:21) So, we set up our allowance that they were given one-dollar times their age, which you had alluded to early on. So, each week, a five-year-old would get five dollars a week, which sounds like a lot, right? Or a ten-year-old would get ten dollars.

 

And that sounds awesome, right? But it was broken down. So, we first would take ten percent which goes to charity.

 

We wanted to teach the children about tithing. And that was the first. The next, we had ten percent that was taken for taxes.

 

And we used that for family fun night, which made those nights special to them. Now, what they learned from having their taxes taken, when they went to get their first job, like when they were 16 or 17, and our oldest son got a job at the Zoli's when it was there. And he was not in shock when he was given his paycheck and taxes were taken out.

 

He understood that. All his other friends were complaining about them taking it. But our children knew there were taxes, and taxes went for the good of the community.

 

We also took ten percent for retirement. And that was just good habits to form. We kept it.

 

We kept account of how much it was. And when they got out of college, we gave them their retirement. Wow.

 

Now in their 30s, they have a financial guy and he is shocked at how set our children are for the future. Then 20 percent went to college. Once again, this was kind of a mindset.

 

Now, if you don't think your children are going to go to college, I would still recommend at least going to community college or a trade or whatever. We saved this and gave it to them to put towards their expenses when they went to college. So, we literally gave them their money and said, this is what you have saved over all these years.

 

Now you have 50 percent left. So, 25 percent went to savings. And they had to put this in a separate category, and they needed to buy something with it that was $25 or more.

 

We wanted them to learn how to save up for that special whatever they wanted. They could spend that on whatever. So, that would make for a five-year-old, fifty cents went to church, fifty cents for taxes, fifty cents for retirement, a dollar for college, a dollar twenty-five for savings.

 

And what they got at the end, they got a dollar twenty-five for the week, which is a good amount for a five-year-old. But let me just say, when I say so they can spend it, if you're the parent, it is okay to say no to what they are purchasing. Our middle son at a point, now he was older, but he wanted to get 10 piercings in one ear.

 

We didn't think this was a wise decision, not all at the same time. He respectfully stated that he was old enough that he didn't need our permission and that he could pay for it. Now, mind you, he was living with us at the time, but he said he didn't need our permission.

 

And he said it respectfully. We did tell him no, and that as long as he was living with us, reaping the benefits of our house, utilities, food, vacations, he still needs to abide by our parental decisions. And you know what?

 

It wasn't an issue. He said, okay. And when he was on his own, you know what?

 

He had become wiser over those couple of years and he didn't do it. So, it's okay to say no to some things. And saying that, doing this allowance, it makes going places so much nicer.

 

I never said no to my kids. And it was funny because when we talk about moms’ groups or whatever, I said, “Oh, I never tell my children no. They can have, you know, what they asked me for things, I never tell them no.”

 

And they go, “Really?” And I said, “Yeah.” I'd say, “Do you have the money for it?”

 

Oh, okay. And then it wasn't me saying no. They needed to make that decision.

 

This sounds so negative and it truly is not. Our boys took great pride in paying for their own things. I mean, they used discernment in their choices.

 

And they took great care of those toys that they bought. There was a sense of ownership and responsibility to it. This was not negative.

 

It was truly positive and taught them much more than just about money.

 

Laura Dugger: (42:22 - 42:41) Well, and it's such a great real-world experience. I've never heard someone teach like this before, where you broke it down so specifically. But really, it reflected how they would handle money as adults.

 

And so, I think it's brilliant. And I'm wondering if you have any other practical recommendations that we haven't covered yet.

 

Markie Castle: (42:43 - 45:07) I would give a few. So, in their allowance, I put the cash in clear containers labeled so that they could see what they had. When they were older, we moved it to paper because I wanted them to be taught about how banks work.

 

Another couple of things. We never had issues going through candy aisles or going to events. We would pay for the tickets.

 

If they wanted to buy a snack like at Six Flags or something, they could. But they'd have to use their own money. Now, we're not cruel.

 

We would buy lunch for them. But if they wanted that $10 soft pretzel, they needed to buy it. Another thing, if they received money for a birthday gift, we felt that that was all theirs to spend.

 

Because to me, that gift, you know, if they were given a toy, we wouldn't split that toy up and give 10% to charity. So, they could keep all the money and go and buy what they wanted. One other thing, and some people may find this controversial, but I would suggest getting a credit card for your children as soon as you can while they are living with you.

 

And then you can give them the guidance that they need. Our son learned from an early age that you only charge items that you know you will be able to pay off at the end of the month. A debit card is good too, that they need to have that money in there.

 

But we liked setting the habit of paying off the credit card every month. A debit card would say, you can't slide this card unless you have that money in the bank. Either way, I would highly recommend you get your children something so you can give them the guidance of how to use it.

 

We knew people who wouldn't allow their children to date until they were 18. And my thought was, I don't want to give my children the go ahead to date when they go off to college. I wanted to be able to guide them.

 

So, we said, when you're 16, you can date. And then we were able to guide them and teach them along the way.

 

Laura Dugger: (45:08 - 45:14) That's so good. And can you think of anything else that you want to make sure we don't overlook today?

 

Markie Castle: (45:15 - 45:51) After counseling and mentoring many couples who have asked us for help, I realized that financial difficulties and marriage issues go hand in hand. That puts a stress in a marriage that comes out in other ways. If someone is having financial issues, you need to get help.

 

I would also say to teach your children so they are raised with a God-honoring respect for money. 1 Timothy 6:10 doesn't state that money is the root of all evil. It states that “the love of money is the root of all evil.”

 

Laura Dugger: (45:52 - 45:59) Well, I love all of the practical tips you've shared. And do you have any other favorite stories that come to mind?

 

Markie Castle: (46:00 - 48:23) One that is particularly close to me is we had very, very close friends who actually my husband worked under him for many years. But we were very close. And in fact, we moved together and with my husband's job and very close.

 

He was an exec, a cat, very high up. And making more money was the most important thing. Climbing that corporate ladder.

 

And suddenly he just realized how unhappy he was. He also put his children at bay because he worked so much. He needed to have the better cars, the better house, the better everything.

 

And one evening, there's a knock at the door. We weren't expecting him. And they were just standing there.

 

And he just said, “Can we talk?” And he came in and he looked at us and said, “When is enough??” And he had tears in his eyes.

 

And he knew that money was driving him at the cost of his marriage, although they were still together, but at the cost of the relationship with his children. And he said, “When is enough? And we talked to him.

 

We again shared the gospel, which we had shared before. And when you have Christ in your life, for me, that's enough. That's all I need is Christ.

 

He turned his life over to the Lord. He became a believer. He quit his job, which he had planned on.

 

And financially, he was great. And what he does now, he does a lot of mission work. He goes to different places that have been hit by a tornado.

 

And he's with the group that goes all over taking care of other people. And he is far, far wealthier than he ever was.

 

Laura Dugger: (48:24 - 48:48) Wow, Markie, that is so powerful. And what an incredible story to start to close our time together with. But I still have one final question for you, because our podcast is called The Savvy Sauce, because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment.

 

And so, this is my final question for you today. What is your savvy sauce?

 

Markie Castle: (48:49 - 49:28) I would say beware of giving your children everything they want. And everything you think they need. Wanting is a great lesson to learn.

 

And as we've been told in the Bible, patience is a virtue. Having children earning their own money and spending it teaches them independence and develops them to be adults who are secure with the choices they have learned to make. This is far more than just teaching them about money.

 

Much more is developed within them.

 

Laura Dugger: (49:28 - 50:00) That is so good. And truly, Markie, this conversation, I can't wait to share it with all of our girls, with Isla and Kessler, too, being even just six and four. I think you have so many helpful practical takeaways.

 

And you're such a gifted teacher. So, it's been a joy to learn from you during this time. So, thank you, not only for applying scriptures to the way you interact with finances, but thank you for also sharing those applications with us today.

 

And thank you for being my guest.

 

Markie Castle: (50:01 - 50:10) Laura, it's truly been my pleasure. I appreciate you and I appreciate how God-centered you are and with this podcast.

 

Laura Dugger: (50:11 - 53:29) Wow, thank you so much. That encouragement means a lot. One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Wise Living Why to Get Outside and Travel and Read Aloud with Amber O'Neal Johnston (Episode 273)

273. Wise Living: Why to Get Outside and Travel and Read Aloud with Amber O'Neal Johnston

 

“Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.” James 1:17 NIV

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Amber O’Neal Johnston is an author, speaker, and Charlotte Mason homeschooling mom who blends life-giving books and a culturally rich environment for her four children and others seeking to do the same. She recommends we offer children opportunities to see themselves and others reflected in their lessons, especially throughout their books, and she’s known for sharing literary “mirrors and windows” on HeritageMom.com and @heritagemomblog. Amber is also the author of Soul School: Taking Kids on a Joy-Filled Journey Through the Heart of Black American Culture and A Place to Belong, a guide for families of all backgrounds on raising kids to celebrate their heritage, community, and the world.

 

www.HeritageMom.com

www.SoulSchoolBook.com

www.APlaceToBelongBook.com

www.instagram.com/heritagemomblog

www.facebook.com/heritagemomblog

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Sam Leman Eureka

 

Questions that We Discussed:

1. Looking back, what would you say has helped to shape your children's character the most?
2. What have you learned about the importance of getting our kids (and ourselves) out into nature?
3. How do you actually make time to be a content creator and to also homeschool and travel and host?

 

Other Related Episodes from The Savvy Sauce:

53 Practical Life Tips with Blogger, Rach Kincaid

57 Implementing Bite-Size Habits That Will Change Your Life with Author, Blogger, Podcaster, and Speaker, Kat Lee

82 Traveling with Your Family with Katie Mueller

84 Ordering Your Priorities with Kat Lee

103 Making Family Memories with Jessica Smartt

200 Planting Seeds of Faith in Our Children with Courtney DeFeo

204 Charlotte Mason Inspired Mini-Series: A Delectable Education with Emily Kiser

207 Cultivating Character in Our Children with Cynthia Yanof

212 School Series: Benefits of Homeschooling with Jodi Mockabee

253 Low Tech Parenting with Erin Loechner

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce Our Website, Instagram or Facebook 

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:09)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 2:01) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today over 55 years later at Sam Leman Chevrolet Inc. in Eureka. Owned and operated by the Burchie family, Sam Leman's in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at LehmanGM.com.

 

Amber O'Neal Johnston is my fascinating guest for today. She's an author and speaker and coach and she's just chosen to live a very wise life as a wife and mother, and I think you're going to enjoy gleaning practical tips such as the benefits of getting our children out in nature regardless of their age. She has teens and makes this super practical for things that they would enjoy too, and she shares these incredible benefits of what happens when we simply step outdoors. She's also going to share approachable ways to introduce our family to great art and other cultures, and she gives us a fabulous book list, so, make sure you stay tuned through the end of the episode so that you can see some of the top books that she recommends. Finally, if you don't have a copy of her own latest release entitled Soul School, I highly recommend you purchase that today. Here's our chat.

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Amber.

 

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (2:02 - 2:04) Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here.

 

Laura Dugger: (2:04 - 2:14) Well, I'd love for you just to start us off and introduce us to your family, and will you just share a glimpse of your values and lifestyle?

 

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (2:15 - 3:48) Absolutely. So, I live outside of Atlanta, Georgia with my husband Scott and our four children. We are just entering birthday season, but shortly they will be 16, 14, 12, and 10. The girls are the two oldest. The boys are the two youngest, and they've been homeschooled from the beginning, so, we're a homeschooling family. I'm originally from Illinois. My husband's originally from Ohio, but we met here in Atlanta at the High Museum of Art, which is really special. We are art loving, you know, fine arts loving, liberal arts loving family, and so, the idea that we met at the museum, I will just cherish that forever. I came to, before homeschooling, I was a stay-at-home mom, and prior to having children, I have an MBA, and I worked in corporate America in like marketing and advertising, and Scott comes from a similar background with the MBA, and he was doing work in that area too, so, we had that as a connection point, but I have always stayed home with the kids, and you know, our values are rooted in our Christian faith, and we're an African-American family, and so, we have values and cultural aspects that enter our home through that avenue as well. We are world travelers, so, we enjoy that as part of who we are, and I'm an author and a speaker, and I'm just a very happy homeschooler.

 

Laura Dugger: (3:48 - 4:12) I love that, and it sounds like such a rich and abundant life, and there's two little connections that I have to go back to. My husband and I had a date at that same museum. I love that you met your husband there. Oh wow, that's wild! And so, we met when we were in Atlanta, but live in Illinois now, so, which part of Illinois were you originally from?

 

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (4:12 - 4:33) I'm from Elgin, Illinois. It's out past O'Hare Airport, and I was born and raised there. My parents were both public school principals there. My dad was principal of Elgin High, and there's actually an elementary school, Ron O'Neal Elementary School in Elgin, named after my father, so, that is where I'm from.

 

Laura Dugger: (4:33 - 4:46) Wow, okay, so, then even with that piece, your father being a principal, and then you said you've homeschooled since the beginning. Did you always anticipate you would homeschool, or what was your journey into that?

 

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (4:47 - 7:15) Oh my gosh, never, and it's both of my parents were principals, so, that's wild. My grandfather was an elected school board official. My sister was an elected school board official, so, public school is just, you know, in my blood from the very beginning, and that's what I assumed I would do for my kids at first. Once Scott and I got married, and we had discussed it, we decided that I would stay home when they were little, and when they were old enough to go to school, I would go back to work, and my salary would pay for private Christian school tuition, and as the years, you know, months really came to fruition for my oldest, my husband started backpedaling, and he started talking this crazy talk about homeschooling. I'm like, that's a switcheroo for you. What are you talking about? I was like, that's weird. I don't want to do that. I don't feel called to do that. That does not seem like a comfortable space for me. I don't want my kids to endure that, and ultimately, I lacked confidence in that. I couldn't even articulate it. It felt scary, terrifying. Why would I take something so weighty into my own hands, and Scott was very persistent, and I can't even explain why he was so persistent about it, but I think to me, I feel like it was planted in him by the Lord, and he felt that this was the way he wanted to lead his family, and he did it so graciously because I was very resistant. He asked, would you please try it for one year, and if you are unhappy, you don't think it's right. I'll never ask you about it again, and that gave me a softer place to land where I felt like it wasn't signing up for a long-term commitment because I knew I was going to hate it, and I said, sure. I will do that, and oh, my gosh. It was the most amazing year, and I laugh now because my daughter was four, so, she's like four and turned five during that year, and so, she was so young, and people were like, well, what were you really doing, but I took it so seriously. I was doing all things, and I joined a homeschool support group, and I was reading about it, and I realized on Friday, I'm a stay-at-home mom, and on Monday, I took on this identity of a homeschooling mom, and it's just been a beautiful journey for us. I'm so thankful that the Lord led Scott in that way. He knew what was right, not just for our children, but for me, too, when I had no vision for it, and so, I'm just, you know, very grateful.

 

Laura Dugger: (7:16 - 7:30) I love that story. That's such an encouragement, and, okay, your oldest is turning 16, so, when you look back, what would you say has helped shape your children's character the most?

 

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (7:32 - 9:29) Well, I think the time that we've all had to spend together, like intense amounts of time, so, not just quality time or quantity time, but both, and I think that there's nothing else I could have done that could replace that, so, I think that's one of the things. I think my own acceptance of the divine nature of me being their mother and those being my children, and really that leading me to embrace my mother's intuition, which is something that I was hesitant for at first because there are so many experts, and surely they know so much more than me, and that's not to say that that's not important. I read so widely. I'm always reading expert ideas and views, but what I realized is that those things can help me as tools. They can mentor me, but they can't master me because the master has already appointed me as the perfect mom for these children, and nobody knows them, the little tiny details of them that nobody knows more than me, and so, when I leaned into that and I'm like, yeah, this says this online, this book said that, this thing says that, I can take what I can from those, but ultimately I feel the spirit telling me and leading me in this way with these children, and when I really leaned into that, I have a right to do that. I am their mother. That revolutionized things, and I think that's what's helped shape my children's character the most is my willingness to lean into how I'm led to lead them, and so, that's been a motherhood journey for me, and I hope that it's a legacy that I leave with my children.

 

Laura Dugger: (9:31 - 9:53) And do you have any specific stories that come to mind that were examples of that mother's intuition, something that really I think it is such a gift from the Lord and that the Holy Spirit speaks to us in some unique way as mothers to be in tune with our kids, so, is there a time that it really benefited them when you exercised your mother's intuition?

 

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (9:53 - 12:42) Well, there was one time with my third, my son, my oldest son, his name is Beckett, and he was in the high chair eating while I was braiding my daughter's hair, and I heard him start making like these really weird noises, and I looked over and it was like he was choking and gagging, and I run over, and but he seemed fine, but then he would do it again, and he started sweating, and you know today I really would say, you should call 9-1-1, but I didn't, I threw all the kids in the car, and I rushed to the ER, and when we got there he wasn't choking anymore, he wasn't sweating, they did his vitals and everything, and they said, well mom, whatever happened passed, he's fine, and you guys can go home, and I was like, no, he's not fine, I'm looking at him, he's not my little boy, his vitals are checking out, but he's not looking at me the way he normally looks at me, he's not interacting with me, the little funny things that I can make him smile all the time, he's not responding to them, and so, like, I know you have your tests, but like my, I'm telling you something's wrong with my little boy, so, they have a doctor, he comes in to tell me everything's fine, and he's sending me home, and so, I was like, well I'm not leaving, I'll just spend the night in the ER then with all my kids, because I know something's wrong, and the doctor, who's this older man, he turns to me, he looks me in my eyes, and he says, you know, in all my years of medical training, there's something that they never told us, but something I've learned throughout my career, never doubt a mother's intuition, and he said, we'll take him and run more tests, and they took Beckett back to run more tests, and they came back and said, you were right, he has swallowed a coin, and it's like just teetering on the precipice, and so, at times it was blocking his airway, and at times it was shifted a little bit, and we have to go in immediately and get it, and that could have choked him, if you had just gone home and put him down to bed, and so, in that story, I took away two things, one, that I am his mother, and I don't care what the test says, or what the data says, or what the news, or a book, at the end of the day, I knew that something was wrong with my boy, the other thing is the graciousness of that doctor, to see my humanity and my personhood beyond just the insurance payment, or protocol, or whatever, it let me know that like there's something powerful about letting other people know that you see them, and that you are connected to them, as another part of God's creation, like he respected me on that level, so.

 

Laura Dugger: (12:43 - 13:35) That is incredible, I'm so grateful that that story has a happy ending, and that you were assertive to say that, I think sometimes as women, probably especially as Christian women, we can think, oh I want to be nice, or not push back on somebody, but I love that you were assertive, it was what was in your child's best interest, and like you highlighted, that doctor's humility is admirable, but Amber, you mentioned too that you're a writer, and you contribute a lot to things like the Wild and Free bundles, and I was always struck by the way that you would be out in nature, and there's so much to learn, so, if you had to boil it down, what wisdom would you have to share from what you've learned about the importance of getting our kids and ourselves outdoors into nature?

 

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (13:36 - 16:49) Yeah, that's so funny, I love that you asked me that, because I like to tell people I was raised in the air conditioning, and so, there is no one who began motherhood further away from nature and being outdoors than me, like, and I can look back at those early days of like, I knew you could take your kids to the playground, and I did do that, but like what else would you do outside, you know, and people would be like, oh we went hiking on this trail, and I was like, where did you get on it, like where do you find a trailhead, like I mean this is back, like this is where I was coming from, and I was just like, and then what would we do, like we just walk, and do we talk about trees, I don't know any trees, I know Christmas trees are evergreens, you know, so, it was just like coming from this very like foundational place where I didn't know anything, but I believed, right, I believed, I somehow inherently believed when I read that being outdoors was important for children, so, I'm reading Charlotte Mason's work, and she's talking about nature study, I'm reading Last Child in the Woods by Louvre, and I'm hearing about this, he calls it a nature deficit disorder, and I'm reading all of these different kind of people who really respected childhood, and personhood, and really wanted the best for children, I'm reading a Christian perspective of the joy in connecting with God's creation, first and foremost, but also this idea of encouraging natural and authentic physical activity, running, climbing, balancing, exploring, developing coordination, and confidence, and the mental health components, you know, reducing stress, and improving mood, and not just for the kids, but my friend from A Thousand Hours Outside, she talks about how the first time she like took her kids out for the whole day, it was for her, because she was going crazy with these all these little kids, and the house, and the bags, and the diaper bag, and the snacks, and she didn't know what else to do, so, she just went outside, and how healing that was, and therapeutic that was for all of them, the idea of curiosity, of fueling curiosity, and creativity, I've never seen my kids come up with the most, I mean, they come up with imaginative things in our house, but outside, the, oh my goodness, the things they come up with, the things they create, and make, and the storytelling that comes out of that, and I think the family bonds, our experiences, it's another way of memory making, I mean, we make memories when we go see plays, and musicals, and travel as well, so, it's not the only way, but it's a strong way of that shared outdoor adventures, so, like a couple weeks ago, we were all whitewater rafting, it's funny, like a lot of funny things happen when you're out there doing crazy stuff, and so, we have a lot of laughter, and we have a lot of inside jokes that come from our time together, so, I think that all of those, it's not just one thing, it's one of those rare things where there are all the pros, and there really are no cons, and so, I intentionally embrace that for my family, even though it's everything that I didn't have growing up.

 

Laura Dugger: (16:50 - 17:41) Wow, that is so interesting, I love how books have really inspired you to make changes that have benefited your entire family, and I'm thinking back years ago when I was in grad school, studying marriage and family therapy, there was this book that we read, Letters to a Young Therapist, I believe the author is Mary Pipher, and she said something that I found to be very true in my life, she said, from childhood when we all look back, our memories typically boil down to three categories, one is family dinners around the table, the second is traveling with our family, and the third is anytime we were outdoors, and so, I'm wondering that legacy that you're giving your kids, they're going to have an abundance of memories in all three of those buckets.

 

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (17:42 - 18:29) Yeah, I love that, and I had never read that, it's making me want to go and read her work, but I can't agree more, I mean that's what I've seen anecdotally, at least in my family, and it's definitely been the case for us, I can totally see that, the other thing I love about outdoors too is it's free, you know, so, there have, we've had times of plenty and times of not quite enough financially throughout our journey, due to layoffs, and you know, recessions, and all these different things, but that has been one thing that the travel hasn't always been as consistent as we wanted, but the nature, the time outside has always been accessible, even during COVID, that was accessible to us, so, I love it for that too, but yeah, that's really cool.

 

Laura Dugger: (18:29 - 18:41) Absolutely, okay, so, you started with, you were getting some inspiration from different books and speakers, but then when did you actually implement this? Do you remember how old your kids were?

 

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (18:42 - 20:11) Right away, so, my oldest was like four, five years old, and we started going outside, now again, we had always been going to the park, so, they had been spending a lot of time outside, but I will say like that's like a very, you know, man-made structures, and you know, I can't think of it, like very cultivated space, so, we weren't spending time in uncultivated space until around there, so, maybe a four-year-old, two-year-old, and infant, and I know they started growing up in that way, and I had kids in an ergo on the back, and I remember hiking with a kid in an ergo on the front, and then snapped another one on the back, and you know, these are memories I have of being outdoors thoroughly by the time the boys were coming along, and I remember the story where we were at a creek, and I looked up for a moment, and just sheer panic that my little boy was gone, he wasn't in my eyesight anymore, and the girls were playing there, and I'm like, you know, and I look, and look, and look, and there's nothing, and no one, and all I can think you sees in the water, and I wasn't paying attention, and my heart's racing, and I'm like, girls, where's your brother? And my daughter says, mommy, he's sleeping on your back. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I just think, like, I was so tired during those years, and I just remember, I would just think, let's just go outside, and some days that's just the most I could come up with, but yeah, I was freaking out, and the little boy was sleeping on my back.

 

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I'm wondering too, so, when you began, what did you start with? What did you do outside?

 

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (21:51 - 24:13) So, we started with walking, and I also was very verbal about my, what I felt were my inadequacies with friends, and that's why, you know, I can't overemphasize the, I haven't brought that up yet, but the idea of community. You don't need a hundred friends, just a few people who either are doing the same thing as you, have done it, or know you personally so well. But I had a friend who was like this outdoor enthusiast, and I always admired her for that, and she'd be like, oh, I went to the hydrangeas, they're coming out today, and they're gonna bloom for four days, and you know, like, and she would be like, oh, do you want some wild blueberries? And I'd be looking at her with side eye, like, girl, I only eat blueberries from Publix, because how do I know that you know what you're doing? You know, those could be poisonous berries you identified wrong. So, we had this kind of ongoing thing, I just asked her, I was like, hey, could we go outside with you guys sometimes? And she was like, of course. So, our first hike was with her and her kids, and she showed me how to go outside and do nothing. Like, we didn't do anything, we just walked. And the kids let us, you know, they would stop and ponder things and ask questions, which she knew the answers to, but wouldn't answer. So, she was like, well, what do you think? Or that's something cool we can investigate, or whatever. So, I realized, wow, here's this expert naturalist who's not even using her expertise. I don't have any expertise, so I could do the same thing. Well, what do you think about that? So, the kids let us, we stopped when they stopped, we kept going when they kept going. We had plenty of water and snacks, which she had told me, which was important. And that was my first thing. It was a hike. And after that, I only went back to that place by myself with my kids without her, because that was the only trail I knew. I knew where to park and where to go, and I felt confident. And then lo and behold, I run into Charlotte Mason's work, where she talks about returning to the same place throughout the year, and having your kids compare what's happening their season to season. And so, different rationale for why I was doing that. But then I was like, look, there's beauty, even in the simplicity of me not knowing what else to do. So, that's kind of how we got into it. And then I started having more experience and going out and being more adventurous further away from home with my kids.

 

Laura Dugger: (24:14 - 24:24) Okay, so, then what other ways has it evolved? You mentioned whitewater rafting. So, you've got teens now. What does your time outdoors look like in this phase?

 

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (24:25 - 26:02) So, lots of camping. So, you know, Memorial Day weekend, you know, we were camping in yurts with friends. This past weekend, we camped, we had a big Juneteenth celebration, and then we went camping for Juneteenth weekend. And so, I would say that kayaking, paddle boards, we have paddle boards, we take out fishing, I hate fishing personally, don't like it at all. But two of my kids enjoy fishing. So, I'm there for that. I'll just bring a book or whatever, because it's quite boring to me, but they love it. So, we moved. I mean, how much of a commitment is that we moved to a different house, when we were able to have our whole property is forest floor. So, it's completely shaded and intertwined with trees and plants and a kind of wild scape. And across the road is a lake where the boys can fish and I can call their names for lunch and they can hear me now. I have to yell it loud. It's kind of country. Other people probably like what is going on? I'm like, you know, but they can hear me right there. And so, the creek and just really everything. A lot, a lot of hiking, I will say we live near a mountain and we're in Georgia. So, the North Georgia mountains are not far from us. We have Appalachia or Appalachia, as my friend said, I mispronounce it. And yeah, there's nothing that isn't my one of my first dates with Scott was whitewater rafting. So, we've always kind of embraced that.

 

Laura Dugger: (26:03 - 26:37) Oh, that's a special way to tie in a married couple memory with your kids and get to pass that along. And water and mountains, those things are, they never get old. But I've heard others even say like, you don't have to take stuff other than water and snacks, like you mentioned, to go outside. But I like the practical tips that sometimes people take art supplies, and they can nature journal or a book to read aloud. Do you have any other practical tips like that, that you would encourage if somebody wanted to get started with this lifestyle?

 

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (26:38 - 28:47) Yeah, I would say, um, we, okay, the best thing I can say is to just try it like I think that oftentimes I know my I'm like this, you want to try to be an expert at something before you actually put it into practice. And the point is, like, we're looking at someone's work or something that they're doing after years that they've been in practice. And then we're expecting to do that from the very beginning. And until we get there, we don't want to do it. So, for example, nature study, nature journaling, I always admired nature journaling. But when you look at people's nature journals that they people who are willing to share, there's usually a reason they're willing to share theirs because it looks beautiful. And mine didn't also look beautiful. But I was still willing to give it a try. And I love that. And I love my kids, what they've worked on. And I cherish all of our early beginning sketches. And quite honestly, I'm still not great. But I think having tools like watercolor pens and water pens where we can do watercolor on the go. And we've done many pictures out by the side of the creek on picnic blankets, especially like my older children while younger people are like, What do I do with these little ones like water, you know, like they love that splashing, making sandcastles and things while I'm painting or doing things watercolors with the with the older ones. And were they museum worthy? No. But there was a lot of enjoyment involved in a skill-based learning. So, I think asking questions and inquiry, using pictures, sure and painting, but also keeping track of things the the date that our cherry blossoms bloom, and our white cherry blossom blooms before the pink one every year and keeping track of that or paying trying to map all of the vegetation in our yard like we are, you know, know which trees what they're called where they come from that takes time. And those are things we've done. It's not like we're only just sitting there barefoot grounding ourselves and forest bathing. You know, we're out there learning as well. And I think that, you know, both are beautiful ways to enter into that.

 

Laura Dugger: (28:48 - 29:34) I love it. There's so many benefits. And you even mention grounding that helps so much going barefoot with inflammation and different body systems that are reset even by getting out and getting early morning light and the serotonin that's produced that turns into melatonin at night. So, we're happier in the day and sleepier at night, resetting systems in our eyes and like healing our body in different ways to an even how much better outdoor air is for us than indoor air. The benefits just go on and on. So, would you have any to add that either your family has experienced personally, or you've learned about just benefits of getting outdoors?

 

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (29:34 - 31:29) Yeah, I think that one, even, you know, all the things you said, yes, and also the mental clarity. And that's why I don't like being time outdoors, being tied to a negative consequence for academic related behavior. So, the house across the road from ours, you know, I could say ironically, or just be like, God chose to gift us. It's a homeschooling family. They moved in a couple years ago, and they have some kids are some of our kids are similar ages. And our boys are just outside all the time together hours and hours and hours every single day. And I see the difference on days where the weather doesn't permit it or where one family or the other, you know, isn't available. There's a difference in terms of clarity and the work that's happening at the lesson table as well. And this came up, you know, my nephew, you know, they're not homeschooled, and his parents took him on a trip, which caused him to miss a day of school. And he missed an assignment that day, he didn't turn it in. And so, the school then when he got back to school punished him by keeping him indoors for recess. And I was helping, you know, my family craft a note that talks about two things. One, they punished a child for a decision the parents made. And that is grossly unfair, they should be talking to the parents about not missing school, if that's the important thing. And the second thing is, you took away the very thing that allows these children to have what they need to sit quietly and take in, you know, that that's not, that's not how you that's not an appropriate consequence. So, anyway, I feel that the mental clarity beyond the things I would have named the same things you already said, it would be the only other thing that I would bring in and why time outside actually helps us to achieve deeper and broader and more expansive learning when we are inside.

 

Laura Dugger: (31:29 - 31:54) That's good. And I love how you keep mentioning the piece of community that that's the best way to do this. So, regardless of somebody homeschools, or they don't, how can all of us actually prioritize this? And what's a good, healthy goal for getting started, even as specific as how much time outdoors, how many outdoors or how many days a week should we be outdoors?

 

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (31:55 - 33:01) Yeah, that's, it's so different for every family, I think that you should go just past the point of comfort, you know, for most of us. So, if the point of comfort for you is like 30 minutes a week, then you would start out like aim for an hour a week, you know, 20 minutes, three days, if you're already outside for, you know, 10 hours, a couple hours each day, you know, I would say, maybe shake it up with what you're doing and see what would it be like to go on a really long outdoor excursion on a Saturday, or to take a day off or something like that. So, I don't want to say an exact number, because we're all entering in at a different place. For me, if someone had told me to spend eight hours outside with my kids, when I was first starting, and I'm used to going to playground for 20 minutes, that would have been overwhelming. And I would have been like; there's no way I'm ever gonna do it. So, I think like, just taking it, like, where do I feel most comfortable? And how can I push myself just past that point would be a great place to start and kind of a nice place to always stay? Like, what's the next thing that we can do to lean further into this?

 

Laura Dugger: (33:02 - 33:15) That's really good, very wise counsel. And Amber, you've mentioned that your family loves to travel. So, will you share any adventures that you've had as a family with world schooling?

 

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (33:16 - 36:20) So, our goal, and it's just a fun thing, you know, I don't know if we'll totally do it, but I think we will, is to have children. So, for us, world schooling is where we're not on vacation, but we're actually deeply immersed in a learning stance in another country, another part of the world. And we're trying to do that on every continent, except Antarctica, before my oldest graduates. So, we have two continents left, we are going to be going to Asia in the fall. So, we'll be taking that one off of our list and for that particular feat. And then her senior year, we'll do Australia and hop over to New Zealand. That's the plan, if it's God's will for us to do that, that's what we would like to do, and that will complete our journey. And then we'll keep traveling, but that was just kind of a fun thing to help lead us, because there are so many places in the world to go, like how do you know? And so, that kind of helped us know, well, let's do this continent, let's do that continent. So, we took our first trip, we spent three months in South America, most of it spent in Bolivia. And I can tell you exactly the kids' ages, because my youngest turned two in Bolivia. So, they were two, four, six, and then one turned eight there. And so, that was, you know, diapers, I had a baby in diapers, a little one in diapers and still nursing when we went on our first trip. And I've never regretted that. People have said, why would you take kids so young? You know, they're not going to remember. And I think a couple thoughts. One, you'd be surprised, they do remember. They may not remember this artifact in some museum, but that's not what we spend most of our time doing. But they remember the people. And we've kept in touch with a lot of the people that we've met in these different countries. And we've even had visitors in our home, staying in our basement apartment that we met abroad. So, they do remember. They remember how things feel and taste more than they remember exactly, like historical markers and things like that. Also, I kind of compare it to like breastfeeding and nursing, like my kids, except for one little boy who held on way too long, but they don't remember that. But I believed that it was something good for them that was forming. It was helping to form who they were, not so much who they were personality wise, but their bodies as they were growing. And so, sometimes we do things that are foundational to our children's development, even if they don't have a conscious and direct memory of that thing. And that's how I see world travel. So, we've been to Europe, and we were in Greece when COVID hit. We were in the middle of a big trip there. So, we had the whole struggle to get back to the United States. We've been to West Africa, most spent in Ghana, England, France. We're going to Ethiopia this year. So, yeah, that's kind of, that's our thing.

 

Laura Dugger: (36:20 - 37:04) Wow. And those memories are incredible. Even let's say your children forget some of this, or if they're too young to remember all of it, you remember this and you get to share those stories with them and pass that along. I can't even imagine all of the learning that takes place from being immersed in those other cultures. But you also mentioned welcoming people into your basement apartment. So, you sound hospitable as a family. What does that actually look like? And I'm kind of going to throw two questions at you. What does that actually look like? And then both for world schooling and hospitality, what are tips for ways we can replicate that as well?

 

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (37:06 - 39:52) So, one thing that's important to me to always share about world schooling, I have a whole chapter about our world schooling adventures in my first book, but one important thing that I call out there is Eli Gerzen. He's the guy who came up with the word world schooling. And he says, you know, we don't even need a passport to do it. That world schooling is really learning from the world around you. It could be your local library. It could be the internet. It could be your neighbors. And so, while I use this more global term of world schooling, because that's just what we call it in our family, the truth of the matter is it's a way of seeing the world and seeing all the opportunity to make connections right where you're sitting. And people are like, oh, you guys have so much money. I can't do that. First of all, we don't have so much money. Like, for instance, we have one car, right? So, there are sacrifices that we make that other people may choose to spend their money in a different way. So, we definitely don't have a ton of money. But more importantly, I'm thinking, yeah, you're saying that you don't have money, but how much have you explored your county? Like, what do you know about the history of your county? And have you been to your local historical society? And have you really, you know, got in? Have you been to an old the oldest cemetery within driving distance of your home? Have you gotten a tour of it to hear the stories of who's there? Like, you can have that same inquiry and curiosity without ever leaving. So, I'll say that first. And in terms of the hospitality part, it's like an it's an intention, right? You have to like, decide that you're going to do that, because it's so much easier not to have people at first view, like, oh, my house is not clean, and blah, blah, blah. And people don't just stop by the way they used to stop by, like my grandparents’ house, it was so fun staying there in the summer, because people just folks just came in and out all day, just they come calling is what they call it, they come calling. And even when we read Jane Austin, people leaving the call guard, you know, when they came to visit, and you weren't there, like, there was this idea that you didn't have to have an appointment. And now you do, you have to let someone know before you're coming. So, it's a choice to be vulnerable, if you want to be hospitable in that way that people will see your, you know, dirty bones of your house. And you know that you're not always presenting this, like really sanitized version of your family and your family life. And so, I think that's intentional decision to say it's more important to us to be with other people and let them in than it is for us to always sanitize everything before they get here. And I don't mean sanitizes and clean the house that too, but I mean sanitizes and everyone's behaving the way that I want them to behave in front of people and all of that as well.

 

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Well, and I think it is a biblical command for all of us and it does bless the person or the people that we are hosting, but there are also rewards for us in the process. So, if you even just could think of one reward of a way that this hospitality has blessed your family, what would you say?

 

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (41:07 - 41:55) Well, I would say John chapter five, it says, you know, this verse we've all heard, "I am the vine, you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit apart from me, you can do nothing." So, you know, when we talk about hospitality, we spend a lot of time talking about what my family is doing for other people. But also, that means that my family is constantly in contact with other believers and other people who are helping us with our faith to helping us to remain connected to Jesus. And without that connection, we know that there's nothing that we can do, nothing of any spiritual significance. So, while I'm inviting those people into our lives, it also ensures that my family is not alone in what we're trying to do in our faith. So, like, that's one of a very easy benefit, I can say right off the top.

 

Laura Dugger: (41:56 - 42:18) Then that one is truly invaluable for our children to get to witness the way other people live out their faith, and it impacts each of us. But I'm also curious, how do you manage your time so that you can be a content creator, and you can homeschool and travel and cultivate these relationships?

 

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (42:20 - 46:08) So, first, let me say that it's not always easy. And there are seasons where I feel like I'm doing a really good job with that. And there are seasons where I feel like I'm not doing a good job. I always prioritize my family first. And so, during the seasons where I feel like I'm not doing a good job, it's very public. People can see I did not post on Instagram for a month, or I'm not speaking as much. They're finding it harder to find opportunities to hear me speak, or I have a long lull before books are published. Those are times where I've turned inward towards my family, where I felt like I didn't have the bandwidth for everything. And so, that's something I have to deal with on a constant basis, because I know that my business or my ministry is not as rich and robust as it could be. I have ideas for days. I have ideas and the ability to bring them to fruition. But I'm not willing to sacrifice the time that it takes to do those things in this season. Because even though I don't have little kids, I definitely have more time than I did when I had little kids. It's not even just time; it's more mind clarity as well. But I don't have as much time as people with little kids would think, because I want to be fully present, even for my teens. When they want to talk to me, I want to be talkable too. I want to be available to them. And we're going to places. We're doing things. They're busy. I'm busy. And I'm trying to prepare them for young adulthood. And that's just as time-consuming as trying to prepare my young children for the next stage of their development. So, I guess it's so messy. Oh my gosh, it's messy. It's chaotic. It's a little bit crazy. But in the center of it all, I really appreciate the opportunities I do have to do the things that help refuel, help me refuel. So, I'm a writer. So, writing isn't just about creating a book. It's that I get to create a book, but really it's about the process and how cathartic it is for me to sit in silence and wonder about things and be able to write them out. And oh, lo and behold, there's a publisher who is interested in publishing those things. But the real work for me is in the process of writing. Then when I come home from a coffee shop or I emerge from my room, I come back more enthusiastic about what it is we're working on and what we're doing. The other thing that I would share is that I don't do all of that stuff by myself. So, things that people don't, just like I say, I have one car and we travel the world, people are like, oh, okay, this is not what I thought. My husband does all the laundry, every piece of laundry in this house that the teens do their own, but all the laundry that's done, he does and has done for over a decade. So, that's a thing I have to say, because you might be picturing that I'm doing all of those things. Or when I wrote one of my books, I was struggling and Scott was like, how can I help you? And he was like, what if we get help to come in with the kids like a nanny or something a few hours a week? I'm like, no, that's the last thing I want somebody to touch. So, he's like, well, what is it? So, we hired a chef, and she would prepare all of our dinners according to like what I, how I like my family to eat and lots of whole foods and good things. And she would drop them off at our house. It was very expensive, but I used part of the money from the advance from the publisher to pay for that so that I could write the book. So, I think those are things that a lot of times people don't talk about, but I have support in place. I'm not super woman any more than anyone else.

 

Laura Dugger: (46:08 - 46:49) Oh, I appreciate that real picture and those creative ideas because as mothers, we don't just make goals for ourselves. Like you said, we have these dreams and ideas that we could put into practice, but we consider our relationships as well and how it will impact everyone. So, I love hearing practically how that plays out for you and the trade-offs that you've chosen to make. And I know that you and I also share a passion for reading aloud. So, if we could get really practical for a moment, what are some of your most recommended read aloud for families from a variety of age groups?

 

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (46:50 - 53:05) Well, I'm always ready for that question, but I have to say, it's almost asking me, which of my children are my favorite? It's so hard in so many ways, but for younger elementary, I picked three books that I think kind of help show how expansive I feel like I want my children's reading life to be. So, this book is called Indigo Dreaming, and it's a book about two girls, one's in North America and another one we can believe is off the coast of Africa. And they're both doing what they do in their own homes. And it's beautifully illustrated also, but they're both doing what they do in their own homes while wondering, is there another little girl in this world doing what I do, liking what I like? Well, indeed there is. And it's poetic and it has soft paintings. It's just stunning. And then another one is called The Magic Doll. It's a children's book inspired by African art. And in this book, the mother desperately wants to have a child, but she's dealing with infertility, and she turns to the use of an infertility doll. And what would I say about that? My family doesn't believe that, but it's a book that I read with my children because we were going to visit this culture. And I wanted to explain to them how we can respect something and learn about it even without adopting it. And that you can understand the yearning of a mother's heart to hold a child in her hand and the desperation that that could bring about. And I wanted them to know that we would see fertility dolls there and what they meant and things like that. And it's also beautifully illustrated, which is important to me. And then this one's just a fun book. It's called I Had a Favorite Dress, but as the dress starts getting too small, she cuts it and turns it into a skirt. And then it gets turned into this. And then the little, small piece gets turned into some socks. And then it's just a little scarf and snip, snip, sew, sew, pretty hair bow. And so, the same piece of fabric, this favorite dress she had, every time she can't use it in that way anymore, it gets moved and shifted. Into something else. And this book reminds me to just, you know, sometimes we share heavier topics with our children, even beautiful topics, but sometimes it's just joy. Like that's the whole purpose of the book is to smile and have fun. And I'll move more quickly for the older elementary books. I have this book called Schomburg. It's a nonfiction book about Arturo Schomburg and the man who built a library, which is now housed. His home library is now housed as part of the collection of the public library system in New York. And he collected books about all types of black and brown people. And it was considered one of the foremost library collections. So, as a book lover, I love that story. This one's called Heart and Soul. It's the story of America and African Americans with stunning illustrations by Kadir Nelson. So, I love visual art. I always say my family, we can't afford to buy the most exquisite art for our walls, but we have an exquisite art collection through our picture books that I've collected. And then the last one is for that group is John Henry by Julius Lester and Jerry Pinkney illustrations. So, those are two powerhouses of African American author and illustrator. Both have passed. And it is the tall tale of John Henry told in a way that you've never seen before. For older kids, like middle schoolers, I love this one Big Open Sky because it's about some black exodusters who are moving west. And it goes so well for families who love Little House on the Prairie. But, you know, Little House on the Prairie, in some ways, there's some instances that are a little disrespectful to Native Americans and black people. And this is like a redemptive story, not instead of but alongside of it to say that there were black people that were also moving westward and what was their journey. And it's written in verse, like, oh, my gosh, I can't even tell you enough about that. This book, The Angel Orphan, my friend Leah Bowden wrote this book, and it's the story of Charlotte Mason. So, in chapter book form. So, there's also a picture book that someone wrote, but this is a beautiful story about Charlotte Mason. And my family's all-time favorite on my kids read aloud is The Winged Feather Saga by Andrew Peterson. And that whole series, oh, my goodness, that cemented so much of our family lexicon, because it's filled with like made up words. And it I mean, we have jokes and talks and sayings for days coming out of that series. For our older teenagers, um, or even early elementary, early middle school and early teenage years, the Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry is just like a such a classic, Mildred D. Taylor that many of us read. But she also wrote a young adult version where Cassie is entering young adulthood. So, different age audiences, but same author. And a lot of people haven't heard of the other book All the Days Past, All the Days to Come. So, for high school, I love that. And then I threw a couple things in for mama. I'm an epic story of called Homegoing about two sisters and the different paths their lives take during a time I'm part of it is told in Africa and part of its told in the United States. And the last book I have is this memoir, A Black Mother's Garden. It's called Soil. And she uses her actual real garden at her home to kind of give us this idea of life. And it's, it's, you know, it's, it's hard to explain, but it's her it's part memoir, part gardening, like learning and talking about the plants, but also how all of that can turn into kind of like the soil of your life and the people being plants, and she really focuses on wildflowers. So, it's a stunningly, like poignant and beautiful memoir. So, those are my favorite, you know, and now if you ask me tomorrow, you're going to get a different stack.

 

Laura Dugger: (53:07 - 53:27) I love it. What a gift to get to see all of those you and I share some of those favorites, and you've introduced me to some new ones. So, I'm very grateful and hope everybody listening feels the same. But speaking of books, you've authored more than one. But will you tell us about your most recent release entitled Soul School?

 

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (53:28 - 55:58) Yeah, so, Soul School is it's Soul School: Taking Kids on a Joy Filled Journey Through the Heart of Black American Culture. And I know it's so hard with those. But it is a book of books. So, people who have enjoyed Honey for a Child's Heart, or The Read-Aloud Family, those types of books, which I have adored, and I have all of them, and I've highlighted them or, or Give Your Child the World is another one, highlighted them and dog eared them and have used them to check out books for the library for my children for many, many years. And, and at the same time, I was always very, you know, on my heart that the books that I spend a lot of time reading with my children that I choose and I select are never really included in most of those books.

 

And there was the season, you know, I'm like, frustrated, you know, I'm mad. I'm like, why? Why are they putting these books in here? And then the more I thought about it, I was like, the most you can ask for a mother to do when she's sharing these books, when it's coming from that is what she read with her children. So, am I going to be mad at her that she didn't read what I think she should read? No, do I wish that it had been more expansive? Sure, I do. But how many of us wouldn't go back and do something differently if knowing what we know today or whatever. So, I wrote a companion like the I see not to replace those books. But this book is filled with African American and black diasporic children's literature starting from preschool all the way through high school.

 

The first part of the book, I talk about what I'm looking for specifically in books about black American culture, and why those things are important. So, the first few chapters, first five chapters are really teaching the teacher. And then the rest of the book, which makes up most of the book are really rich annotated book lists with descriptions why I chose the book discussion questions, project ideas, and something called second helpings. Like when you think of a big soul food dinner, you go through the line the first time and you fill your plate, but then you go back for second helpings of the things that taste the very best. So, if your child likes this book, then here are two second helpings that they also would probably enjoy. And you know, the book was years in the making, I read all 300 plus books in there from cover to cover. And that's kind of my contribution to raising our children.

 

Laura Dugger: (56:00 - 56:40) Wow, I mean, it is a stunning piece of work. And there's so much for your family, but also for all of us. So, I think of being one of your kids, what a treasure that their mom read 300 books and put this together. But for all of us, I love books on books. And like you said, we can use it to go to the library or then once we read those and find which other ones we love, we can add it to our home collection. So, thank you for that powerhouse of work. And Amber, there's still so much more that you could share with us. Where can we go after this conversation to connect with you or to learn more?

 

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (56:42 - 56:56) Go to heritagemom.com. And there you'll find all of my books and years’ worth of blog posts and book recommendations and other things. My Instagram is @heritagemomblog and the same at Facebook.

 

Laura Dugger: (56:56 - 57:12) Wonderful. Okay, we will add those links to the show notes for today's episode. And you may be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, Amber, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (57:12 - 57:50) Oh, this is such a great question. I love this part of your podcast. I would say that my savvy sauce is learning to be a really great listener. Like if there's nothing else, then that's listening to my husband and the things of his heart and listening to my children and my neighbors and my friends.

 

But also, people I don't know, people in other places. And also, people I disagree with and being willing to be quiet and listen and take what I can from what they're sharing as well. So, that is, I think my savvy sauce is being an introspective listener.

 

Laura Dugger: (57:50 – 58:13) That is well said. You are such an inspiring and creative soul. And I have thoroughly enjoyed this chat. And I know I've been hearing you speak on other podcasts and reading your work for years. So, this was such a treat to get to connect with you today. And I just want to say thank you for being my guest.

 

Amber O'Neal Johnston: (58:14 - 58:16) Thank you so much for having me.

 

Laura Dugger: (58:16 - 1:01:59) One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?

 

It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you.

 

But it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.

 

This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own.

 

So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a Savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

 

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.

 

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.

 

Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, would you pray with me now?

 

Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place.

 

I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?

 

We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him.

 

You get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.

 

We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started?

 

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible.

 

The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.

 

I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John.

Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.

 

I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ.

 

We also have show notes including where you can read scripture that describes this process. And finally, be encouraged.

 

Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Pathway to Joy and Happiness in Parenting with Amy Rienow (Episode 272)

272. Pathway to Joy and Happiness in Parenting with Amy Rienow

 

Psalm 144:15b NKJV, "Happy are the people whose God is the Lord!"

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Questions and Topics We Cover:

1. Will you share your story of God revealing a spirit of perfectionism was sneaking into motherhood?

2. How can we recognize our own spirit of perfectionism and what can we do about it?

3. What is one thing you've found every mom needs more of and how can we get it?

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: MidwestFoodBank.org

 

Amy Rienow's first ministry is loving her husband and nurturing faith in their seven children. She and Rob founded and lead Visionary Family Ministries, a ministry created to equip parents, encourage couples, and help families live for Christ. She attended the University of Illinois, followed by Wheaton College Graduate School, where she earned her MA in Clinical Psychology. She is a licensed clinical professional counselor. Amy has her hands full as a mom, partnering with Rob, and serving in the women’s and worship ministries at church.

 

Savvy Sauce Episodes Mentioned in Episode:

Special Patreon Re-Release: Discipline that Disciples with Dr. Rob Rienow

Five Love Languages with Dr. Gary Chapman

87 Visionary Parenting and Grand-Parenting with Dr. Rob Rienow

182 Things I Wish I'd Have Known Before My Child Became a Teenager with Dr. Gary Chapman

220 Cultivating Healthy Family Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman

245 Stories Series: Miracles Big and Small with Dr. Rob Rienow

230 Intentional Parenting in All Stages with Dr. Rob Rienow

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website 

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:09)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:43) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank, who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness.  Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org.

 

I'm thrilled to get to introduce you to my inspiring guest for today, Amy Rienow. Now, that last name may sound familiar because Amy's husband, Dr. Rob Rienow, has been a previous guest multiple times, actually. So, I'll make sure and link his previous episodes in the show notes, along with other episodes that we recommend in this conversation.

 

Amy and Rob are founders of Visionary Family Ministries, and they are parents to seven children. Amy is also an author, podcaster, and she's practiced as a licensed clinical professional counselor in the past, so she's going to combine all of this experience together, and her wisdom just pours out as now she's going to seek to encourage us to seek the Lord and follow His guidance, especially as parents in our parenting journey. Here's our chat.

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Amy.

 

Amy Rienow: (1:44 - 1:51) Hi Laura. I'm so glad to do this with you. It's been a while since we've talked about it, and I'm excited to be here today.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:51 - 2:00) Well, I'm thrilled to have you join, and I'd love to just dive in and hear how did Jesus Christ become your personal Lord and Savior?

 

Amy Rienow: (2:01 - 3:39)  I love that you start with that question. I grew up in a home with a Christian mom and a non-Christian dad, but they had made an arrangement before they were even married. She did have the wisdom to ask her husband to give her the domain of that, like picking a church, and he was willing to go with us as a family to church, even though he was not a believer, and that was very clear.

 

But she led me to the Lord when I was about four years old, and I grew up going to church, and that was my first. I feel like I never kind of have a lot of memory of not knowing Jesus, but I would say that my faith increased and became even more my own. I feel like it was always my own, but in high school, I went on a missions trip to Mexico, and I will never forget the experience of being in a very poor town in Mexico, and there was this horrible storm coming in, and all of us Americans were afraid of the storm, and we ran into the church while the service kept going on, and literally none of the Mexican people that were outside in the service, the storm didn't faze them at all.

 

They just kept going on, and honestly, that was such a pivotal point in my life where I was like, that is the type of faith that I wanted to have. I mean, it really cemented. I feel like that's when the Holy Spirit just helped me to know that that's who I want to be.

 

I want to be a person of that kind of faith in the Lord that is not budging when the storms come.

 

Laura Dugger: (3:40 - 4:04) Love that. Thank you for sharing, and since that time, you've added some people to your family, so I'd love to get a snapshot of your family right now and then share some more about motherhood, specifically in one of your books you wrote about recognizing that you had a spirit of perfectionism. So, I'd love to hear more about that because I think it's very relatable.

 

Amy Rienow: (4:05 - 6:43) Well, my family right now, I've been married to my husband Rob for 30 years. I have seven children, R.W., Lissy, J.D., Lainey, Millie, Ray, and Rush.  And R.W. is turning 28 this year. He has one little boy.

 

His name is Cliff, so that's my grandbaby number three. My daughter Lissy is married to Bond, and she's about to have baby number three, so that will be my fourth grandbaby. She has Avey, Bondy, and then this little new one on the way. And then my son J.D. just got married to Brooke last summer, so that is exciting. We're thrilled, thrilled, thrilled to have Brooke in our family. Lainey is graduating from Olivet. She graduated in three years, which we're really proud of. Millie is a junior.

 

Ray is a freshman, and Rush is in fifth grade, and I still homeschool those three. They kind of do part-time at a Christian school here, and then I homeschool the rest of the time. So, that is my current family.

 

It's expanding. As you will find out when you get to the stage, expansions come very quickly, and it's exciting, exciting times. But about that spirit of perfectionism, actually, even before I became a mom, I was convicted of a spirit of perfectionism because I had always been very critical of myself.

 

I had a very critical spirit. Just I don't know if it was, you know, the peer pressure, what those components are. I'm a middle child, but I just tended to critique myself very harshly.

 

And after I was married, even about a year, the Lord showed me how, because of my husband and I were becoming one flesh, I was really turning that critical spirit onto him. But then there was a book called The Fly Lady. She is a home organization.

 

I think I mention it in my book, but that is when I really began to understand that I struggled with perfectionism, and that's often what kept me paralyzed. It often keep me with that, you know, I would say engaging with that critical spirit, communicating a lot of criticisms, whether it be to my children or to my husband. So, that was, you know, so it started early in marriage, but by the time I was well into motherhood, I was really starting to understand what this was. What the critical spirit was, and it really was a spirit of perfectionism.

 

Laura Dugger: (6:44 - 6:52) Well, and the Lord met you there, and there is a story that you share related to picture frames. Would you be willing to tell that?

 

Amy Rienow: (6:52 - 9:07) Yeah. So, my daughter, Lissy, was graduating from high school, and it was classic me. I was trying to like get this massive graduation party together, and I'm sort of a procrastinator and life is busy.

 

So, it's like we are, okay, I got to get this done before this big party, this big event, and had a friend who was a decorator to kind of give me an idea of what to do. And so, my husband and really the whole family was kind of working overtime to get everything ready for this big event. And he had helped my, we had this huge wall that had to be that my decorator friend suggested a gallery wall.

 

So, we had all of these pictures up and I was looking at it late at night, kind of exhausted. We're talking about past midnight and I know it wasn't just my husband helping. I had JD helping.

 

I don't remember where I was, but we were just all working hard to get this ready for this party. And I was laying there as past midnight looking at that wall and so frustrated, like so frustrated because all those pictures I kept looking at like, Oh, this is going to be a mess. Like they're all, they're not like, you know, they're not command stripped.

 

Right. And so they're all going to be, I just felt like, what have I done? It's looking crooked already.

 

And it was so frustrating to me. And that is when the Holy spirit completely convicted me with just like, Amy, you should be looking what's in those pictures and not whether they're crooked or not crooked. Like, first of all, like all the family has been helping me with this vision.

 

Right. And it's not really their vision. It's my vision.

 

They've all been supportive of me in front of me. It was a wall of all the memories of all these beautiful pictures. And here I was so focused on my right angles and having it look perfect for the crowd coming in at the graduation party, as opposed to what everything on that wall represented.

 

And so, it was a very convicting moment to me of just like, I have a choice. Am I going to embrace everything in those pictures and everything my family's done to help us get to this special day? Or am I going to come in and be fixated on how crooked those picture frames look to me right now?

 

Laura Dugger: (9:07 - 9:19)  Appreciate you sharing that. And I'm wondering for any parent, especially listening, if they find themselves identifying with that spirit of perfectionism, what can we do with that?

 

Amy Rienow: (9:20 - 11:11)  It's a challenging one because I think our culture promotes it. And I also think I'm on the flip side of the positive side of it. Let me just say, I believe there's a vision of perfect in our hearts because we were created for perfect.

 

We're created for heaven. And the Bible says that no eye has seen, no ear has heard, or no mind has even conceived what God has prepared for those who love him. So, there's this drive for perfect that I think is very good and right.

 

And so, we don't want to give up like excellence, or we don't want to give up that we have that drive. The problem is that the enemy, in fact, I've actually done more research on this. There's really can be a demonic spirit of perfectionism where we're trying to create heaven here.

 

We're trying to think in our own flesh and our own strength that we can take care of all of our sin, take care of all of our flaws. We can take care of our children's flaws. We can take care of our husband's flaws.

 

That is actually from the enemy in the sense that we believe in our own strength. And you can look at that through history. It's basically a form of humanism that we can fix everything in ourselves.

 

God makes it very clear in scripture that that is not possible. So, I think understanding this tension, that it's okay to want things to be wonderful, that's not bad. But what's bad is when we leave God out of the picture and we put this pressure on ourselves and on the people around us to accomplish what only can God can do.

 

And we don't accept God's timing. We don't have patience with who we are, our sinful nature and really put our trust in Christ and not in ourselves.

 

Laura Dugger: (11:12 - 12:56) Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.

 

Midwest Food Bank exists to provide industry leading food relief to those in need while feeding them spiritually. They are a food charity with a desire to demonstrate God's love by providing help to those in need.

 

Unlike other parts of the world where there's not enough food in America, the resources actually do exist. That's why food pantries and food banks like Midwest Food Bank are so important. The goods that they deliver to their agency partners help to supplement the food supply for families and individuals across our country, aiding those whose resources are beyond stretched.

 

Midwest Food Bank also supports people globally through their locations in Haiti and East Africa, which are some of the areas hardest hit by hunger arising from poverty. This ministry reaches millions of people every year. And thanks to the Lord's provision, 99% of every donation goes directly toward providing food to people in need.

 

The remaining 1% of income is used for fundraising, costs of leadership, oversight, and other administrative expenses. Donations, volunteers, and prayers are always appreciated for Midwest Food Bank. To learn more, visit midwestfoodbank.org, or listen to episode 83 of The Savvy Sauce, where the founder, David Kieser, shares miracles of God that he's witnessed through this nonprofit organization. I hope you check them out today.

 

You also write in one of your books that there's one thing that you found every mother needs. So, what is it and how can we get it?

 

Amy Rienow: (12:56 - 14:56) That one thing is joy, joy, joy. And, and I like to use the word happiness, honestly, because I feel like that happiness got a bad rap, I say, in Christian world for like a while, in my opinion. I don't know if it's still that way, but so often I heard sermon saying, you know, like we don't want happiness.

 

We want joy. Like there's these two different major things, like, you know, almost like a rejection of happiness for this deeper spiritual joy. Well, finally, the Lord really convicted me that deep, deep inner joy that doesn't show is an oxymoron.

 

Like, you really should see happiness. You should feel happiness. You should feel those things.

 

If you ever come across someone's like, oh no, I have a deep joy, but like, there's no evidence of it. Well, that's a red flag. That's a problem.

 

The Lord, you know, in the King James version, it actually says happier people whose God is the Lord. And I believe every mom desires that happiness. And sometimes they don't even really know that that's the most important element that they want in their home, you know, because it's so easy to get, I don't know, sidetracked on things that feel more important that you kind of forget how important happiness is.

 

And, you know, we can take it for granted. I feel like very easily because often when our kids are little and we don't have not entered that world of, whether it be academic or whatever into the greater world, let's just say in your home, you can kind of have like a natural happiness and joy that's just there, but it's so easily stifled. When we start putting our self into the world of either comparing ourselves to other moms, comparing our kids to other kids, stressing about the expectations or what we think our kids need.

 

We can often find that happiness slipping away. And I believe we do not want that to happen in our homes and in our hearts.

 

Laura Dugger: (14:57 - 15:08) And so how can we get more of that, both as parents and how can we train our kids to be happy and joyful as well?

 

Amy Rienow: (15:09 - 17:18) It's such a good question and a hard question. Cause I don't think it's just like we can snap our fingers and just do that. I think that it's really important that we are seeking the Lord and helping him order our priorities.

 

You know, God gave us 10 commandments for a reason. And if you look at the first one, it says, “You know, you'll have no other gods before me, you'll keep him first.” And part of the reason why I think that commandment is both like the first and also in many ways, very abstract, like, you know what I mean?

 

How do you even do that? You know, it's confusing, I think, but I think that's what the Lord wants is of a seeking of helping us keep him first. Because when we help to keep God first, number one, and number two, we don't have idols that we bow down to, that we place above him. Like, let's take an example of motherhood.

 

Let's say the idol might be, um, I have to have super smart children. Let's put it that way. You know, your joy is going to be robbed when you keep sacrificing to that idol, because that's a trap.

 

Like the enemy wants to trap you there to make the wrong sacrifices. And that is why I think God knows this. Like he's telling us right in those 10 commandments, you know, you need to keep me first.

 

You can have no, do not worship to idols. Because when you're making the sacrifices to eternal God, who is the author of joy, the author of love, the author of peace, those are the things he gives back to you. No other idol can give you peace.

 

No other idol can give you joy. So, I think when we look at the lack of joy that we see in a lot of our homes in our culture, it's because we've been ensnared into an idolatry where we're making the wrong sacrifices. We're sacrificing things that we don't realize the consequence of that until we're in it.

 

And we're like, wait, this didn't produce the happiness and joy that I expected it to produce. Cause we were tricked.

 

Laura Dugger: (17:19 - 17:27) Do you have any examples from your own life or friend's stories where that really comes to life?

 

Amy Rienow: (17:27 - 21:22) Oh boy. There's lots of examples and lots of friends stories, but I'm going to say one that's more of a story that I'm well aware of and not, you know, personally walk hand with. But I think it's always struck with me because it was so painful story. You know, I grew up, I've raised a lot of athletes in my home and my son, especially my first born very athletic boy.

 

And we were kind of at the beginning of the cusp of how important travel was, you know what I mean? Travel baseball and travel, you know, sports in general. And there's that pressure.

 

You need to choose this. You need to do this or else you are going to, you know, ruin the advantages for your child. If you don't do this, even if choosing that is going to mean you're going to sacrifice family time, you're going to sacrifice finances.

 

You are going to sacrifice your Sundays. I could go on and on. The world will tell you you have to do this in order to get to the prize that you're looking for, or your son is going to be disadvantaged.

 

If you don't choose that. And it took a lot to be like, no, we're not going to make, we're not going to make that trade. And there was a lot of pressure.

 

There's a lot of pressure with our son, you know what I mean? With him feeling sometimes neglected and having to deal in that relationship. So, it's not like that's immediate happiness or immediate joy, you know, but what did it did allow us to disciple him through all that.

 

It allowed us to see God, you know, use him, whatever team he was on, give him a lot of joy in sports. The blessing of it is that we saw him in high school, you know, excel in baseball, always rise to the top, win character awards. He eventually did go on to play college baseball and AIA, not like D1, but he got to play, got to use that gift to pay for his education.

 

But most importantly, he was a joyful, happy kid. Baseball didn't control his life. And I just praise God for that.

 

And in contrast, he, at the same, his age, same age level, there were these two boys who were twins were very well known for being top, top, top, top players. And they were just elevated in many circles we were in. And, you know, you, when you're in the baseball world, baseball moms will understand this, you know who the top players are.

 

You see the name, like, you know, when your son's in the paper for something, you know, he was listed in the number of top of DuPage kids. And obviously that's a feather in your cap and you're really proud of that. These boys were top of the top D1, but I'll never forget.

 

They went to different D1 schools and one of them ended up taking his own life his freshman year. I believe it just the most devastating thing. I could not, I cannot speak to any of those situations.

 

I don't know his family background. I do not know any history of at all. All I can say is it hit me really hard in the sense that these were the boys that so many parents were envying, envying of their success and of their status.

 

And that was so jolting to, to know that they'd received, you know, hit so many of these incredible hurdles that every parent thinks they want their kids to achieve. But obviously there was something amiss because there was a lack of joy, lack of happiness. I don't know the whole story.

 

But that just strikes me again of just how important it is to again, go back to keeping God first, make sure you're making the right sacrifices.

 

Laura Dugger: (21:23 - 22:43) That's a good word. It's such a sobering story, but making sure we're making the right sacrifices or really listening to God's counsel. That reminds me where I was this morning, Psalm 25.

 

I read it in the amplified version, but it was talking specifically that some of his guidance comes from his word. Like it's amazing. It's incredible.

 

It's important to pray and to be around others who are godly and do other spiritual rhythms, but there's nothing like reading his word to hear from him. And let me try and find the verses. Verse 14 in the amplified version says, “The secret of the wise counsel of the Lord is for those who fear him and he will let them know his covenant and reveal to them through his word, it's deep inner meaning.”

 

And the next verse, just the first part goes on to say, “My eyes are continually toward the Lord.” And that was such powerful takeaway this morning, but then I'm hearing it through the way that these lives played out. Because when you look, is it my understanding correct?

 

That you did travel sports, but they were not, your children chose not to do Sundays.

 

Amy Rienow: (22:44 - 25:52) Well, we did not even do travel sports for my oldest. It was back in the day when park district actually, you could, you know, like there were enough kids. So, we, my son did only park district all the way through eighth grade, but then he kind of, because he was like young for his age, he had one sort of gap year in between high school before he started like high school sports.

 

And that's when he did play a travel sport. We found one that honestly was not good at all. I don't think the level was any better than park district, but they accepted the no Sunday situation.

 

So, that's what we did. And you know, it was a losing team. Like he was on losing teams, like most of his baseball career until he got to high school.

 

So, it really was you know, the opposite of what the world said he needed. And yet he was able to, to rise and, and achieve. And honestly his high school experience was being able to always, he was a starter all the time and he his teams won.

 

So, it was like years of like, not, you know, kind of paying these prices I would say. And that's neither here or there. The winning or the losing is really not important.

 

The important was keeping baseball in its proper place, enjoying the gifts that God has given you, not letting, listening to the world. I'll just throw this in because we are what you said about sound. First of all, I love the amplified version.

 

So, that blessed me that you read the amplified, but you know, seeking the council, you, we must be as parents in his word, like regularly listening to how he's speaking to us because we also, it's so interesting. Rob and I live in a very interesting world. We had one foot, especially back then, one foot in the homeschool world, one foot in the public school area, public school community, lots of public school friends.

 

And then also the Christian school is where my son played. But you know, if we'd go to homeschool conference, there were tons of messages that you should not have your kids in sports at all. Sports are wrong.

 

Sports are a waste of time, you know? So, that was a strong message of sort of like condemnation almost for being in sports at all. So, my point is there was no one community that said, okay, this is the way, you know what I mean?

 

We had to seek the Lord, you know, for ourselves, for our family, for our son, knowing this was his love and his giftedness and continue to look for wisdom and how he should grow in those gifts. You know, and how he wanted to use it in his life, but not let it take over his life. And isn't that the lesson for all of us?

 

So, anyway, it depended on that seeking the counsel of him, both myself with my husband and then also with our W. It wasn't like we kept him out of the picture. We were praying the three of us for wisdom and all those things.

 

Laura Dugger: (25:53 - 26:42) I love hearing that because you're right. It's not about black and white decision of travel sports are always wrong or always right. But the main takeaway is seek the Lord because he has wisdom for our individual unique situation.

 

And I want to go back and close a few other loops. Sure. Please.

 

One of those being that even with perfectionism or with comparison or when we're choosing godly values that may contradict worldly values, I'm hearing a theme that there's a, it's a fight and that there's a spiritual battle. And you even said you had researched some of this, Amy, how do you personally learn about that and be aware of the spiritual realm?

 

Amy Rienow: (26:44 - 30:42) We, we really, I can't say it enough that we do need to be so aware of the spiritual realm. I didn't understand. I didn't understand in my early years of parenting at how important that was to pay attention to.

 

And here's the thing there's, I feel like there's the Lord brings us on a path along the way with the knowledge we need at the time. And then he wants us to stretch and grow and learn a little bit more. So, there was a season in my life.

 

When especially we began homeschooling, the Lord brought us into all these new teachings that we didn't really understand was so powerful. It was so wonderful. We were very blessed by all of those teaching and the conferences that we were attending.

 

But what began to happen for me is that the perfectionism that I knew was there kind of gotten folded into that teaching because all of a sudden I kind of wore as a spiritual, like pride that I, I called it my noble list. Now I, when I talk about my book, Not So Perfect Mom, I, this is not in the book, but this is part of my talks. Like I kind of replaced the world's list of great athlete, great, you know, so smart, all those things with my noble list.

 

My child will have wonderful character. My child will read God's word. My child will know what it means to serve, but you see what I mean?

 

We're still dealing with a list. God had to call me out of that way of thinking back to the importance of a relationship with him, meaning for myself and meaning for my kids. Because when my oldest was 12, I was starting to see that we could be raising a Pharisee. If we keep focusing on this noble list, like if he knows all of his Proverbs, if he obeys perfectly, if he, you know what I mean?

 

Like life is not supposed to be, God never called us to do that. He desires a daily relationship with us. And that's what he desires for our kids.

 

So, that was beginning to suffocate my oldest for sure. And my, I would say, and my daughter right underneath him because they felt the weight of this, you know, we need to arise to this, this standard. So, like that perfectionism can take on this, this type of robe that makes you feel very noble about it.

 

Especially if you're in certain circles, like spiritual circles, where if your kids look right, dress right. You know, say yes, ma'am and yes, sir. Then we're all assuming that they're wonderful and we're not really getting to the heart underneath, but that is, there's a tension and a spiritual battle.

 

That's far. That's super important to pay attention to. And the way the Lord showed that to me is that I would often say the phrase in conversation.

 

Oh, it's a battle. Oh, it's a battle. We're in a battle.

 

I'm the Lord. I don't know what they gave me a vision. That's too strong word, but I had this sort of, I, I guess it's a vision.

 

I imagine that I was on, I was sitting in a coffee, like at a table with a friend drinking coffee. And we were just, you know, chatting and yet that coffee table was in the middle of this bloody battlefield. And the Lord was just kind of showing me, this is how your attitude is about saying that it's in a battle.

 

Like you're sitting here, just talking with your friends, drinking coffee and chatting and laughing. And this is the battlefield. It's all around you.

 

What are you doing about the battle? You know, when you are following after the Lord, you need to expect opposition. You need to understand that your kids are under spiritual attack.

 

And if we're not praying and putting on that full armor of God and recognizing it, we're not engaged in it.

 

Laura Dugger: (30:42 - 31:41) When was the first time you listened to an episode of The Savvy Sauce? How did you hear about our podcast? Did a friend share it with you?

 

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When you go back to your family of origin, did your father ever find a saving faith in Jesus Christ as well?

 

Amy Rienow: (31:41 - 33:11) He did. He did actually. That's such a wonderful question. And he did when my husband and I were married for about a year. And he, at Christmas day in front of our whole family, after we were sitting at the table at dinner, he kind of waited for all the gifts to be open and be at a different spot.

 

And he said, “Well, I opened one more gift today and it was the gift of salvation.” Wow. I still tear up thinking about it and thinking about my older brother's response, who was not an emotional person.

 

And I saw tears in my older brother's eyes, but I just want to even in saying that, that taught me a lot because even at the time when he accepted salvation, he even said, I don't necessarily believe all the Bible's true. He really, you know, he accepted in faith and now he doesn't, you know, the Lord took him from evolutions. Now he's probably more conservative or believes the Bible in a way that I would say many other Christians maybe wouldn't believe, but I'm saying that it was a process watching him grow.

 

And my kids don't even understand that, that we call him Bop Bop. He used to be a man who, you know, let the communion plate pass every week. And he was not a believer because they see him so much as a spiritual leader now, but you see how faith moves and how faith changes us.

 

And we need to be patient with God in ourselves, with our kids, you know, and trust in that walk with Him. Love it.

 

Laura Dugger: (33:12 - 33:23) Well, I'm going to change gears here a little bit. Yeah. Will you explain attachment and share why you're so passionate about this topic?

 

Amy Rienow: (33:24 - 37:18) That is, I do feel like I love talking about attachment. I feel like it's an underrated thing to talk about. Some of you might be familiar.

 

I don't know if any of these names like Mary Ainsworth or the Harlow experience, you remember the monkey Harlow experience. It's most, most kids who've had like even a high school psychology class, know that the story of the monkey who has the wire surrogate mom with the bottle. And then has like the fuzzy mom that doesn't have the bottle and the monkey goes and gets its food from the bottle of the wire mom but continues to go over to the furry surrogate mom for comfort.

 

That's some of the original psychology on attachment but I was started my professional job in a school with children with behavior disorders and autism. That's one of my first jobs. And, and because of that, I went to different seminars for continuing education.

 

And one of them was a woman who specialized in attachment. And part of the reason she specialized in attachment because she'd adopted so many children and she was sort of a professional on adoption. And that's when I really did a deeper dive into attachment and specifically something called reactive attachment disorder.

 

I can't go into that. It would be a long tangent. But she was such an eye-opening time.

 

And this is even before I had children. But she said that, you know, she couldn't say everything she wanted to about attachment and the effects specifically of daycare on children, because it wasn't politically correct. That she would lose her funding basically, if she gave her true opinion on some of the things that our culture was doing to destroy attachment among families.

 

And it was just very eye opening to me that, you know, when we get our baby development books, the time that I was having kids, it was What to Expect When You're Expecting and What to Expect for Your One Year Old and all these milestones that moms are looking for. And obviously moms generally love their kids. I will stand by that over and over, you know what I mean?

 

That's the norm. And, you know, you're told to look for all of these milestones, but really attachment is not even mentioned in this book of how important it is. What are the signs of a securely attached child?

 

And yet this is so significant. And it's not just in the Christian world that we can recognize this. This is universally known in the psychology world, how important attachment is.

 

So, let's go back to that spiritual battle. Why is it that that is not discussed? Or why is that not focused in the development book?

 

Or why is it that if you're going to adopt a child, you're going to learn all about attachment, but that's not something that you may necessarily come into contact with if you're just having your own children. But attachment is essential for all healthy relationships. And specifically attachment with the mother.

 

I mean, we can use the term primary caregiver. Yes, to other people come in and be a primary care. I'm not saying that, you know. It's not just the mom, but this relationship with the mom, this, this attachment is so significant because God created it that way.

 

And it, how that relationship and how that attachment happens will have this impact on all the other relationships that your child is going to have in their life. So, it's something that we need to be talking about. And I pray that it becomes more and more common for people to talk about it.

 

Laura Dugger: (37:18 - 37:25) Well, and I'm even curious that speaker was that Karen Purvis?

 

Amy Rienow: (37:25 - 38:04) Oh, I don't even remember her name. I apologize. She was not a Christian. She was not a believer.

 

She, well, if she was, I don't know that. Cause I was, I was listening to her in a secular setting. You know, so she might've been, I don't, so I don't know, but I, the reason why it was so curious to me that the time most of the children on my case list that I had at this school were adopted.

 

So, I found that so interesting, like, and that was why I went to her seminar to try to understand more that connection of the adoption. And you know, how did that play into some of the problems that these children were, were having.

 

Laura Dugger: (38:05 - 38:20) Well, and just to go a little bit further with attachment, let's take it from the positive side. What are some proven examples or ways that we can form that healthy attachment with our children and that bonding?

 

Amy Rienow: (38:21 - 40:38) Yeah, well, a lot of it is just a spending time with your child, you know, and that's why I want to be very gentle here. Cause the world that we live in, I mean, I know for a fact that there are so many moms in situations where they have to go back to work right away. There are difficult circumstances.

 

And I'm, I am not here to say that then you don't have an attached relationship with child. Cause that is honestly not true. But I will say that if you have any opportunity to be home with your children, please, please, please take that opportunity because your children need that contact with you to form that attachment.

 

I mean, the number one thing for attachment is presence, time, touch, eye contact, and smiles. I mean, like it is what the baby that interplay that's happening with the baby and the mother and, and the why babies love faces. I mean, like they, we need to have that time with our children.

 

We need to be the ones to know our children the best that only comes with time. But even a mom who maybe for reasons have to be away from their baby, the important thing is that when you're with them, that you are engaged. You know, I even, I don't have my phone in front of me.

 

Even the phone takes away attachment. You know, when you're looking at another screen, as opposed to paying attention to that communication with the baby long before they're communicating long for the communicating with words, they are interacting and communicating with you. So, God knew what he's doing when he created mothers with the ability to feed their babies.

 

Nursing enables attachment, you know, because the baby is dependent on the mother. So, all of these things play into why God created our system the way it is because it was designed not to just physically feed our babies, but to emotionally create this attached, secured relationship where that enables a child to feel safe, feel security.

 

Laura Dugger: (40:39 - 40:54) Well, that makes me think of another a word that you wisely encourage us. And that is the word affection. So, can you share why this is also important to shower on our children?

 

Amy Rienow: (40:55 - 43:47) Yes. You know how it is when you become a mom, there's all these new parenting styles out there, things that you get bombarded with, or should I do this? Or, you know, and I think I was really impacted by a Bible, small group where a woman was talking about her six-month-old needing disciplining her six-month-old.

 

And it hit me really negatively because I just heard a woman who had had like, I think she has 17 children who talked about, you know, there's, you cannot spoil and she used, you cannot spoil anybody under the age of two. I would say it's as much as under three with as far as attention and love and affection, affection, your children need your affection. Again, let's go to how this, how Satan, let's go back to that spiritual battle.

 

We can keep going back. Cause I often find you can see God's truth with how it's perverted in the world. So, let's look at how we have a sex education system now in so many schools, including in Illinois that tries to teach younger children horrific adult sexual behaviors, correct?

 

And they are manipulating what needs to, what children do need, which is positive, a non-sexual physical connection with their parents, with their siblings, with aunts and uncles. So, so in some ways I can remember early in my career and either in my development in getting my classes, my masters, you know, in some ways they demonize, you know, like parents are afraid to sometimes have too much physical touch or too much of this because it's almost like, Oh, we can't, you know, we have to make sure our children are more independent, you know, like, like for example, co-sleeping, which builds a lot of affection between parents, which is normal in most cultures and normal throughout history can be viewed as really negative. Like, you know, you gotta get your kid in another room and another, like pushing them out early and yet look at what we see from the world, which is an encroachment of inappropriate touch, inappropriate sexuality at younger and younger ages.

 

And obviously kids who don't have positive, strong, physical affection are more inclined to fall for Satan's counterfeit. And desire and need touch, but they, they, it's been twisted from the world's perspective.

 

Laura Dugger: (43:47 - 44:17) Does that make sense? Are you tracking with that? I am.

 

And it's even making me think of a previous guest, Dr. Gary Chapman, talking about mostly the five love languages of in marriage and how those are displayed. But we also discussed with children and the parent child. And I'm just thinking as you're giving examples of affection, it, it even goes beyond the hugs and kisses and appropriate touch to acts of service and lighting up with them and spending that quality time and all those love languages.

 

Amy Rienow: (44:18 - 46:16) That's right. As the kids get older, I mean, my, my, we joke about, you know, I have certain sons that, did not want to be touched at all when they were 13, 14. We laughed at my son J.D. like he would want to come give me hugs and he would want to, but it had to always be on his terms.

 

Like I could never come up, you know what I mean? And how can you, my affection towards him was I'll get you a double cheeseburger. I will make you a milkshake.

 

That was the way I communicated my affection to him, but it was also my presence in listening to him when he needed to be listening to. There's so many ways as we get older. Right.

 

And I love Gary Chapman's work as far as like understanding our kids love, love languages, but I'll never forget, you know, I just had JD's wedding and he surprised me with the mother son dance and he had a song ready for me. I'm going to cry again, but it was this wonderful, he had told his siblings that he was probably going to cry on his wedding day when he saw Brooke and when he danced with his mom. And I had so many, and he was really hugging me and holding on and not afraid to be affectionate with me during that dance.

 

And that's because affection has always been a normal part of our home and a normal part of our relationship. And so, I just want to encourage parents out there not to be afraid of both physical affection when they're young and don't push your child. If your child is needing you or wants hugs, I would say, don't hesitate to give those to them because there is a culture again that pushes kids like, Oh, you shouldn't need that now.

 

You shouldn't, you're too old for that. Let them determine those boundaries. You give them the hugs and the affection as long as they still want it.

 

Cause I promise you they're all going to come to a day and they're not gonna want it. And you don't need to worry about if they're looking for that for you, it's a need that, that you can still meet.

 

Laura Dugger: (46:17 - 46:34) Well, and one other piece of parenting. I know we oftentimes hear mom guilt. I don't know if dads experienced the same thing, but how can we overcome that?

 

And what do you see as being at the root of struggling with sometimes that false guilt?

 

Amy Rienow: (46:35 - 49:52) Yes. Well, that I think comes so much again. Well, for me, it came internalized.

 

I had, I carried some internalized guilt with me, but that's compounded by a culture that puts so many expectations and demands on us as mothers. Where we are bombarded with another ideal, another sense of where we're falling short. And again, I know I keep coming back to the spiritual attack, but the point is I want to lay it out there that sometimes, sometimes moms can feel like, especially in an area, this sounds interesting, but because so many more children have been in daycare or exposed to a lot more developmental things at young ages. If you are like home with your kids, if you feel like, well, gosh, I'm not providing a craft every day.

 

I'm not, you know, I'm not reading. I went to the library and it literally had this whole campaign on a thousand books before kindergarten. Like, are you kidding me?

 

And that's the kind of thing. It's like, you're just having a normal mom day and all of a sudden you walk into the library and you get bombarded with what? I'm supposed to read my child a thousand books before, like a new standard that's just put in front of you.

 

And the enemy uses that to, to make women feel that they're not enough, you know? And first of all, we have to go back to God's word. That says, “there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”

 

And to really understand that, yes, we need to be open to be convicted to sin. But when we are convicted of something that our heavenly father wants us to change, we will experience a freedom and a lightning when we repent. And it'll be like a burden lifted up.

 

And as soon as you have that revenge, you feel like you've been given a gift. It's not something that's a burden. So, that is always my guide for women.

 

Like if you are under something that you feel like is a burden that you're carrying around, um, this sense that you're not doing enough or that you're a bad mom, that is not coming from your Heavenly Father. You need to reject that in the name of Jesus Christ, because this sense is clearly from the accuser. The Bible says Satan is an accuser and he stands accusing us, but Jesus is there to, you know, to say, no, that's my child.

 

They're covered by my love covered by my grace. So, we don't want to live under that over that guilt, bad mom guilt shadow for whatever, you know, God knows our faults. He doesn't expect us not to have faults, and your children are going to have faults and your husband are going to have faults.

 

So, if we think that the Lord is, you know, carrying around our faults, hanging over this, we need to, we need to be reminded that that's not from him and we have to reject it. And again, we're talking about a spiritual battle. You might have to reject the same lie 20 times a day until you find real freedom from falling for that guilt trap.

 

Laura Dugger: (49:53 - 50:12) Well, and along those lines, as you talk about engaging in the battle, you encourage us as children to woo our children in this same way that the Lord draws us close to him. So, how can we go and do likewise as the Lord does?

 

Amy Rienow: (50:12 - 52:09) Woo our children's hearts. Like I think it's important to know that the relationship that we have, our kids will, the more we model our relationship, our parenting off of how our heavenly father parents us, the easier it will be for our kids to kind of what I, I have a visual in my mind that I'm walking with my child's hand and I'm holding Jesus hand and I'm gradually through this parenting, trying to connect my child's hand to Jesus hands.

 

Like that's the picture that I want to be guiding my parenting, not I'm trying to raise you to be X, Y, Z, da, da, da, da, da. I'm trying to lead you to your Heavenly Savior. So, you're going to walk with Him.

 

So, Jesus is, you know, there's many components of our relationship with Jesus and the Heavenly Father and Holy spirit. But one of them is that God woos the hearts of his people. When you read scripture, He desired, He's always telling them you walk with Me.

 

“My burden is easy. My yoke is light.” You know what I mean?

 

He's, He's showing us this freedom and this love and grace. He's not coming with a sense of, see, you're doing this and this and this and this and this. And that's why. You know what I mean?

 

Like you see God's everlasting love for his people. And we want to woo our children with that same kind of everlasting love. You know, I always say, say you can, you can demand your kids to obey you.

 

You can demand your kids to respect you, but no one can demand love. Even our Heavenly Father doesn't demand love. He gives us free will and choice to choose to love him.

 

And so, we want to remember that with our kids to woo them. We want them to choose to love us. So, we woo our hearts.

 

You already mentioned Gary Chapman by understanding our kids' love languages. You know, realizing that's part of our job as a parent is to woo their hearts.

 

Laura Dugger: (52:10 - 53:13) So, I love how you're drawing this out as the Lord being the best parent ever and that we can learn from Him. That was something that I felt like he was really teaching me in my quiet time this week. And I wanted to take it one step further.

 

So, for me applying that, I just made a note on my phone and now anytime I come across a parenting scripture, I want to put it in this same list and go back and review it and be prayerful that the Lord can change me to be more like Him as a parent. So, I'm just going to share the first verse that inspired me to do this this week is Luke 6:36 and the amplified version again, “Be merciful, responsive, compassionate, tender, just as your Heavenly Father is merciful.” And so, Amy, just as He's a great parent and we can learn from Him, I appreciate you just drawing us back, pointing us to the heart of the Father.

 

And if we want to continue learning from you after this chat, where would you like to direct us?

 

Amy Rienow: (53:13 - 55:30) Well, I'd love you to come to our website at visionaryfam.com and listen to us at our podcast, Family Vision. You know, we named it Family Vision kind of like television because television really changed the American family. It did when it first introduced on to the scene and our heart is that family vision.

 

Our podcasts would help give your family a new vision, a vision from God's word for all that he wants to do in your family. You can also find our books well on our website, but also on Amazon. We have, I brought a couple today, but Not So Perfect Mom: Learning to Embrace What Matters Most, which is what you're talking about today.

 

And this book is very close to my heart because it really was wonderful. It was the easiest book I've ever written because I just felt like it was being able to talk about how God has worked in my own life and my own journey. And it just was the like culmination of so many conversations I've had with moms like all over the country, but really overseas and over the world.

 

And we're all battling some of the same exact things. So, I just, I would encourage you to pick up Not So Perfect Mom: Learning to Embrace What Matters Most. And then the other book that is, it's not new, it's called Shine Embracing God's Heart for You.

 

I'm actually leading a group of women through it on a zoom study right now. Um, but I actually wrote this, originally back in 2005 when I was a youth pastor's wife. Um, but really it's all about kind of what I talked about earlier of just, recognizing how to, to trust and believe the Lord.

 

I said, you know, wholeheartedly with our head and our hearts and our hands and, and really going back to, you know, keeping God first, identifying idols in our life. So, we, you know, the more that we get our own relationship with the Lord centered and we kind of figured that part out. I feel like everything flows from that in our homes, in our marriage, in our other relationships. So, I highly recommend, um, picking up this shine and there's a prayer journal to go with it.

 

There's a leader's guide. If you'd like to lead a group and that's all on Amazon or at our website.

 

Laura Dugger: (55:31 - 55:48) Wonderful. As always we'll add the links to that in the show notes for today's episode and Amy, you already know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because Savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?

 

Amy Rienow: (55:48 - 57:06) I love that question. My Savvy Sauce is actually mentioned in Not So Perfect Mom, but it's when the Lord gave me that quote, “whatever is worth doing is worth doing poorly.” I feel that perfectionism kept me paralyzed so often.

 

If I couldn't do things exactly the way I thought that they should be in my head, then I was kind of pathetic and wasn't going to do it at all. And so, my encouragement in any area, if you know something is worth doing. Let me give you a practical example really quick on this, even when it comes to like, um, when you're struggling with your marriage. I know I had some issues in my marriage with my husband where I was getting to the point where I didn't even really want to go out on a date, you know, because it was just discouraging and whatever's worth doing is worth doing poorly. So, knowing that, you know, even when my relationships aren't living up to my expectations, or even when I'm feeling hurt, the Lord tells us to press on. Don't, don't stop doing what you know, God wants you to do, um, because you don't think it's living up to your expectations.

 

Do it. Just do it.

 

Laura Dugger: (57:07 - 57:38) That's a good word. And Amy, you have so much to share. Our family has benefited so much from the ministry and work that you and Rob do through Visionary Families.

 

And I am just so grateful for your time and you just to share all of this parenting wisdom. It felt like a mentoring conversation. I loved hearing all the ways that you've been intentional in what you've learned from the Lord. So, thank you for seeking Him.

 

Thank you for sharing with us and thank you for being my guest.

 

Amy Rienow: (57:39 - 57:58) Thank you, Laura, for having me. It's been a delight. I love connecting hearts with people who are like-minded.

 

I love what you're doing with The Savvy Sauce. In fact, my neighbor is one of your devoted followers, and she was so excited to hear about your podcast. So, thank you so much for having me and it's truly an honor and a pleasure to be here.

 

Laura Dugger: (57:59 - 1:01:13) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.