The Savvy Sauce

Family Sabbath: Pause and Delight with Eryn Lynum (Episode 282)

282. Family Sabbath: Pause and Delight with Eryn Lynum

 

Mark 2:27 NIV “Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.”

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Eryn Lynum is a certified Master Naturalist, Bible teacher, national speaker, and author. Eryn lives in Northern Colorado with her husband, Grayson, and their four children, whom they homeschool—mainly in the great outdoors. Eryn has has been featured on FamilyLife Today, Proverbs 31 Ministries, Christian Parenting, MOPS International, Bible Gateway, Her View From Home, and For Every Mom. Every opportunity she gets, she is out exploring God’s creation with her family and sharing the adventures. To learn more about Eryn, visit ErynLynum.com.

 

Eryn’s Books

Eryn’s Free Resources Mentioned

Nat Theo Podcast

 

Topics and Questions We Cover:

1. What can this look like to daily align our activities with our deepest values?

2. What do people actually do on this day of rest and what do you recommend for families?

3. Are there any other practical benefits we’re missing out on if we neglect rest?

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company

 

Related Savvy Sauce Episodes:

81 Rest with Doctor, Author, and Speaker, Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith

99 Sabbath Rest with Sandy Feit

175 Practicing Sabbath with Shireen Eldridge

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:09)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:34) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.

 

Eryn Lynum is my wonderful guest for today, and she's the author of this beautiful book, The Nature of Rest. We're going to discuss all things related to rest, ways that we can prepare for it, how we can enjoy and delight in it, what good gifts God has for us with rest, and then how to reflect well on the rhythms in our life, and so much more.

 

Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Eryn.

 

Eryn Lynum: (1:34 - 4:03) Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.

 

Laura Dugger: Well, I'd love for you to start us off by sharing your personal journey and tell why you are so uniquely qualified to teach and write about rest, as stress can literally kill you.

 

Eryn Lynum: Yeah, that's correct. So, when I was 14 years old, I was diagnosed with a potentially fatal autoimmune disorder. And kind of the context of that season, I was preparing to go overseas for the first time on a missions trip. So, I was going to be in Africa for two months. And so, before you go do something like that, you have to go to the doctor and get a checkup and vaccine recommendations, all the things. And so, my parents took me in.

 

Again, I was 14 at the time, and we had no reason to believe that there was anything wrong. There were no red flags. Besides, I had been a little tired, a little dizzy once in a while, but really, we just thought, okay, well, I'm growing up, my body's changing. But when the nurse took my blood pressure that day, it was 56 over 48, which is deathly low.

 

And so, immediately, that's a red flag. And I undergo more testing and hospital visits and seeing specialists. And they diagnosed me with something called Addison's disease. And Addison's disease, it's where your adrenal glands no longer function. So, maybe you've heard of adrenal fatigue, where someone is so taxed out that their adrenal glands can't keep up because they're meant to produce cortisol, which is our stress hormone. Well, Addison's disease is the worst-case scenario where you can't come back from it, barring a miracle. Like, my adrenal glands don't work, and they haven't for over 20 years now.

 

And so, you know, this system that God has given us meant to cope with stress, and it's that fight-or-flight response. At that young age, I no longer had that. And so, stress became quite literally deadly to me. And at that point, my parents, they began coaching me in biblical stress management, so identifying stressors in my life.

 

You know, when your shoulders start creeping up, and you can feel that tension in your neck, and knowing that those are signs that, okay, you need to step back, you need to calm yourself. Like the Psalms talk about, “I have calmed and quieted my soul,” and to bring everything to the Lord and cast all your anxieties upon Him. And this is really where I can see, in my life, I developed a very consistent prayer pattern in my life where just all day long, like conversing with the Lord.

 

And so, that's been a big part of this. But yeah, that's really what began leading me into this deeply restful lifestyle was out of necessity. But really what I've seen since then is God designed all of us to live and thrive through rest. Like this is His original design.

 

Laura Dugger: (4:04 - 4:27) I love that so much. And you articulate this so well in your book. But before I ever encountered you, I had never heard of the term master naturalist before. So, if you want to share anything about that, it would be great. And as a master naturalist, where do you see these rhythms of rest in nature?

 

Eryn Lynum: (4:28 - 6:54) So, a master naturalist, it's really a fancy term for nature teacher. And I pursued this because my degree and my passion are in biblical theology. And I've always been passionate about rightly handling God's word of truth from 2 Timothy 2:15.

 

And I began to see as my own family, my husband and I, we have three boys and a daughter, and now they're 14 down to seven. But when they were younger and we started spending more time outdoors, I started to see, okay, God has given us so many visuals and materials in nature with which we can teach about Him. Coming from Romans 1:20, that His invisible attributes, those things we can't see about God, are clearly perceived through what He has made. And I saw that also Jesus in the gospels, He used nature all the time to teach.

 

And God throughout scripture, like it's not just Genesis 1, nature narratives are strong throughout scripture. And so, I thought if God and Jesus use this methodology to teach, then certainly we can. And so, that's why I went through this training and taught, teach with this method is because, you know, the more we understand these materials, the more we see of God and the more we can communicate about Him.

 

And so, I was working as a master naturalist in our city and teaching my own programs. And I started to incorporate it more and more into my book and then later on in my podcast. And at the same time, God was leading my family into celebrating Sabbath. We had come into this season where we were just exhausted, like running businesses and raising and homeschooling kids, like all of us, no matter our circumstances, face this very real human existence of fatigue. And so, we came to a place where rest was no longer optional. It was critical and vital.

 

And so, I'm living in these two realms of learning about nature while I'm learning about scripture. And then God is bringing us into deep rest. So, I started to ask the question, where do we see rest in scripture? And I found that it is everywhere. The roots of rest run deep and wide throughout scripture. And also asking, where do we see rest in creation in nature? And it's also everywhere there that God designed all these cycles and these rhythms and all of his plants and creatures, even the ones that we think of as so frenetic and busy that God designed them to thrive through rest.

 

Laura Dugger: (6:55 - 7:04) And will you give a specific example then of something in nature as it's so apparent that it's designed for rest?

 

Eryn Lynum: (7:04 - 8:28) Definitely. Let's focus on one of those ones that we often think of as really busy, the hummingbird. I opened the book with the analogy of a hummingbird because when you think about a hummingbird, what do you picture in your mind?

 

Laura Dugger: (7:17 - 7:19) Busy, constant movement in and out.

 

Eryn Lynum: (7:20 - 8:28) Yeah, exactly. Like they have to visit between 1,000 and 2,000 flowers every day to get all the nectar that they need. And so, they are always like here and there in the next place. And they look like this little thing just zipping through the air and you can't even see their wings beating because they can be up to 70 times a second. It's this blur of motion. And we think about that little hummingbird, and we can sometimes feel like that little hummingbird just zipping from one thing to the next, thinking there's no time to stop.

 

But the hummingbird does stop. It has a very strategic method of rest called torpor. And torpor is kind of like a mini hibernation where the little bird is going to go into this deep state of rest. It lowers its body temperature by around 50 degrees and becomes completely unresponsive. And this is a regular thing that the hummingbird does, and it enables it to continue its God-given, good, busy, fruitful work. So, it's this picture of, you know, busyness is not bad. God created us for fruitful work, but it's all meant to be sustained through deep, rhythmic, intentional rest.

 

Laura Dugger: (8:28 - 9:06) I mean, immediately that makes me think of the weeks, even that I'm most productive, I've probably prioritized my sleep the best of it. And if I get great sleep, even if it's extra hours, that doesn't take away from the rest of the day. That probably makes my time even multiplied.

 

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I love, you point out so many times how God just clearly designed his creation to enjoy this gift of rest. So, you mentioned some of the nature parts. What about some of the foundational scriptural truths on this topic?

 

Eryn Lynum: (9:07 - 11:52) Yeah, well, of course, where's the first place that we get the idea of rest in the scripture? Yeah, exactly. So, God completes his work of creation and then he rests and he didn't need to rest. Isaiah 40:28 tells us that he, the creator of the world does not grow weary or tired.

 

I believe that one reason, and I talk about a couple of them in the book, but I believe that one main reason God rested was to stop and delight. That word Sabbath, it comes from the Hebrew word Shabbat, which can mean to both stop and delight. Like think about God finishing his creative work, bringing, bringing everything from nothing. Ex nihilo is that theological term, everything from nothing. Creating not only the animals and the plants, but the textures and the math and the shapes and the like everything he needed to make these things. And I imagine he just wanted to stop and enjoy it. I can even picture him going through creation and listening to the birds and taking in the colors and the shapes of the clouds.

 

What a beautiful reminder to us, because I know for myself, I'm so prone to just run from one thing to the next, like check it off the list. What's next? But here God is modeling for us. Stop delight, praise him for what he just allowed us to accomplish, to create, to do before rushing on to the next thing.

 

And so, we get that first mentioned there at creation, but then think about when Sabbath was actually established, there's a framework, there's a structure it's Exodus 16. And the context here is the Israelites. They're doing what they do. They're wandering and grumbling. They're hangry and God shows mercy to them in the form of quail and manna, but he has very specific instructions for them. He says for six days, you shall gather it, but not on the seventh day. Don't go out. It is a solemn day, a Holy Sabbath to the Lord.

 

That's the first mention of Sabbath, that word in scripture, but consider the Israelites. They had no context for what God was calling them to do. Surely they could think back to the creation story. Okay. God worked and then rested, but they had very little idea of what he was asking them to do. This was an act of faith. God was saying, stop gathering, trust me.

 

And this is so hard for us because like we are so prone to gather, gather, gather, do produce work more out of this scarcity mindset. But this picture is showing God is a God of abundance and his math works. When we trust him to be the provider, not ourselves. And we take that risk on rest. He provides abundantly through it.

 

Laura Dugger: (11:53 - 12:05) Absolutely. And within this gift then of rest, how can rest actually reorder and re-energize our lives?

 

Eryn Lynum: (12:05 - 14:03) I love this question because throughout the book, we talk a lot about reordering and creating margins. So, we can rest and reprioritizing. You know, it's so interesting when we look at the creation narrative, where we get that first mention of rest, because it's backwards to what we normally think.

 

Think about this. God created for six days and then he rested. Adam, the first human was created on that sixth day. So, Adam's first full day was a day of arrest, dedicated to rest. And in this, we see that God worked and then rested. But we, humanity, we were always meant to begin from rest.

 

And you see that even in the Hebrew tradition of a day, their day begins at evening. Their day doesn't start with, let's get up and get to work. Their day starts with, let me go to rest to get ready for the work. So, first we have to reorder our concept of rest, not see it as a reward. Oh, I'm going to work, work, work, get all the things done so that maybe I can rest this weekend or on vacation, or when the kids are out of the house or in retirement, that's backwards to the biblical framework. We are meant to begin from rest.

 

So, starting there. And as we do that, my family has found after sabbathing for three and a half years now, everything else kind of falls into place. And that happens when you operate by God's design. You know, rest allows us to tend to the most important things. Those deep values, whether like that should be of course, faith and family. So, getting clear on your values is really important. Like what is most important to your family faith? Maybe it's community generosity. Maybe it's physical health, mental health, all these things do better. And we have more time to tend to them when we first make room and space for rest.

 

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It never ceases to amaze me how God's economy and his math are just different. Sometimes upside down from ours, but I feel like when you're speaking, it reminds me of Matthew 6:33, “But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you.” So, if we actually obey, I think there are so many blessings that we can enjoy from this gift of rest. So, you're talking about our values. Then what can this look like to daily align our activities with our deepest values?

 

Eryn Lynum: (16:30 - 18:30) Yes, this is an ongoing practice because the enemy is always trying to distract us from what is most important. And that word there is key distract. And so, first we have to learn to identify those distractions, the things that are pulling us away from what is most important, but you know, getting to those core values and on my website, I have, my husband and I developed a family values guide that helps you step by step to really figure out what are our deepest values.

 

So, that's erinlynum.com/values. But really what it is, is this practice of getting clear on God's best for, for us and for our families and for those around us and, and making sure that we are aligning and realigning because it's going to get out of alignment, those values with God's agenda. You know, a lot of days I just start my day with a restful pause.

 

I call them in the book, Selah pauses. And I am quite literally, I am sitting before the Lord, my eyes closed and my hands just up in this posture of surrender and receiving. And I will say, Lord, I am surrendering my own agenda, my own expectations for this day. And I want to receive your power, your presence, your peace. And then throughout the day, just taking those checks.

 

Like I practice these daily Selah pauses and moments of rest because think about Selah in the Psalms. It can mean to pause, to contemplate, to redirect. And we need to do that often because as a day goes on, I think we lose energy and focus. You know, at the beginning of the day, we might feel really like focused. And this is what I'm getting done today. And that can waver like that can wane out as the day goes on. And so, constantly just checking back in.

 

Okay, Lord, what is it you have for me to do today? And how do I tend to those most important things? But you have to take that restful pause to be able to do that.

 

Laura Dugger: (18:31 - 18:46) That's good reminder. Okay. So, to check back in with the Lord and then can you give another example of one family and what their value is and how they live that out in their daily life. And maybe even what requires us to say no to.

 

Eryn Lynum: (18:47 - 20:15) Ooh, that's a fantastic question. Hmm. Can it be for my own family or do you want me to give them love it from your own family?

 

Okay. I was asked this question recently. Someone asked me, how do you make time to be outside as a family? One of our core family values is to be out exploring in God's creation. And this has been harder in different seasons. And we have two middle schoolers now, you know, we are, we have a lot going on.

 

And so, it can very quickly happen where at the end of the day, we're like, wow, we really didn't spend much time outdoors today, but how we prioritize this is you do have to say no to other things. So, we're a homeschooling family. And just as an example, it can be very tempting to feel like, am I doing enough? Am I teaching them enough? We need to check off all these boxes and get the lessons done. And it's constantly surrendering that and realizing, you know, I know that our value of being outdoors is important to God. I know that he is meeting my children there. He is meeting me there. He is giving us rest and rejuvenation there.

 

So, trusting with that, again, going back to the Israelites, stop gathering, stop checking off all the boxes, stop trying to provide and meet your own expectations. And instead stay super focused on what God has called you to and ruthlessly get rid of the rest, anything that's keeping you from that.

 

Laura Dugger: (20:16 - 20:36) I love that personal example. Thank you for sharing. And how can we also in our own families or in our own life, how can we distinguish which activities are vital for the abundant life in Christ that he offers so that we don't settle for less?

 

Eryn Lynum: (20:38 - 22:46) I love that you bring up that, that term, the abundant life. In John 10:10, that Christ came, that we might have life and life abundantly overflowing to the fullest, like brimming over is what that word means. And that scripture also says the enemy comes to steal and kill and destroy.

 

And I believe that one of the enemy's biggest schemes and methods for that is to send us into hurry and hustle mode. And he does that through distraction and discontent. And so, so much of this is pressing back against distraction and discontent and getting back to how God created us to thrive.

 

And again, I believe that that is through this, this gift of rest. You know, you talk about, you asked about settling for less. The enemy is going to put a million things in our life that would cause us to want to settle for less.

 

Let me give you an example of him trying to distract us. There was a recent weekend where we were coming up on the weekend, and I had several friends reach out and ask about me doing these things like these different opportunities coming our way. Like, do you want to do this? Do you want to do this? And each of them were for on Saturday and that's usually when our family Sabbaths. And so, I had this tension because these were good things.

 

It's hard to say no to a good thing, but I kept feeling again and again, the Lord saying, no, rest with your family, rest with your family. And it was so sweet because come Saturday morning, I was out on our back deck sipping coffee with my husband for hours, having incredible conversations, reading great books. The kids are playing in the yard.

 

Several times I caught myself thinking, I almost said no to this by saying yes to other things. And again, they were good things. This life is full of good things, but God's rest is one of the best things for our families. So, it's learning to be okay with saying no to those good things. So, you can say yes to that better thing.

 

Laura Dugger: (22:48 - 23:17) Examples are so helpful. And that requires a level of discernment and going to the Lord to ask him, but I'm wondering if you even have a system in place for how you discern that, or is it a gut piece that you follow or any practical ways that each of us can discern what's the right kind of busy that's good. And what's the wrong kind of busy and the things that we want to say no to.

 

Eryn Lynum: (23:18 - 25:05) Yeah. Going back to, again, busy is not bad. God created us for fruitful work, but I think, you know, when we are following Christ and God's spirit is within us, he's going to give us that sense of this is the right kind of busy.

 

This is the wrong kind of busy. And practically, you know, if it has any notion of distraction, like if you're doing this thing to just distract you or to procrastinate on better things, if it has a note of busyness, you know, some people will be like, well, some people, the enemy makes us want to think that sitting on our phones can be restful because you're not technically doing much of anything, but that distraction is stealing God's true gift of rest for us.

 

And so, you know, our family, as we practice Sabbath throughout the week, I know that come Saturday, we have a full day of rest. And sometimes it's tempting to add a little work into there, to let it seep out of those edges of the work week and kind of into our Sabbath. And as you practice this more and more and begin just ruthlessly protecting that time, whether it's a full day, whether you start with a half day, God is going to make you more sensitive to those things. Because sometimes I'll like work it out in my mind, like, oh, this isn't work. And really like it's definitely, it's definitely trying to serve my work during the work week.

 

And God is saying, no, like step away from that and allow me to refresh and rejuvenate your spirit so that when you go back to the work, you do so much more powerfully energized, restful, and ready to do that work to the very best of your ability with God's power.

 

Laura Dugger: (25:07 - 25:36) That reminds me of a previous guest I'll link to. He did two episodes, but Jeff Henderson just said he's a pastor too. And he said, sometimes the most spiritual thing you can do is take a nap.

 

I would agree on that, which you've kind of been sharing a little glimpses of your family's experience with Sabbath, but let's just zero in on Sabbath and I'll just try and go through a series of questions. But first what's the importance of Sabbath?

 

Eryn Lynum: (25:37 - 26:55) Well, first God commands it. Like if God commanded it, then surely it's important, but that can also sometimes cause us to get a little legalistic about it. What is it? What isn't it? Well, it is meant to be a gift, meant to be a blessing. It's meant to empower us and what God created us for and calls us to.

 

And so, keeping that just center, this is meant to be a gift, but we see it all throughout scripture, the importance of rest and rest in God's design. It's celebration. Like it's not idleness. It's not doing nothing. Although sometimes like that's the most beneficial way that we can rest. Like you talked about a nap.

 

I love a good nap on Sabbath, but also it can be energizing activities, inspiring activities. I also love a good long walk on Sabbath. Sometimes I love cooking with fresh ingredients and working on a meal during Sabbath because I don't get much opportunity to do that during the week. Sometimes I love going out and working in the garden because that's life giving and I don't have time to do that throughout the week. And so, getting back to this concept, this idea of Sabbath and rest are celebratory. Like when we do it well as a family, it feels like a mini vacation every week.

 

Laura Dugger: (26:56 - 27:15) Ooh, I love that. My husband said that before about date night and I connect with that, that it's a little mini reprieve, a mini vacation each week. But then that leads me to the question because I bet so many people share their Sabbath activities with you. What do families actually do on this day of rest?

 

Eryn Lynum: (27:16 - 31:46) Yeah, that's a great question. And first I'll say that it should look different from family to family. We are all in unique seasons. We have different stories, different scenarios. Again, if you can't start with the full day, now I strongly believe strive and work toward that full day. That's God's design.

 

And we've seen the most blessing from that. But if you have to start smaller with a half day with four hours, start there. So, it's going to look different. If you have newborns, like a newborn child, it's going to look different and that's okay. No going into it, that it's going to be messy. Hebrews says strive toward rest, work toward rest. It's so counter-cultural. We have to work toward it. So, just going in, knowing these things is very helpful.

 

It's also going to grow, adapt, and change throughout the seasons. Our family has seen that. But a typical Sabbath for our family right now is we follow the traditional Friday evening to Saturday evening for the most part. Some people ask me, why not Sunday? Isn't Sunday the Sabbath? Well, for us, Sunday is set aside for church community and fellowship and corporate worship. And that's so life-giving to our souls. But by the time I get home from church and I'm making lunch for the family, like I'm not rested physically. So, we needed a separate day set aside for rest.

 

And so, Friday afternoon, we start preparing where we're going to band together and just pick up the house, get it ready, wash all the dishes and just start preparing our hearts, our minds, our bodies, our home for rest. And then we start Friday evening with communion as a family, just breaking bread and celebrating what Christ did on our behalf. And again, that, that idea of celebrate, and this marks it as special. Okay. We're heading into Sabbath. Some families will like light a white candle for Sabbath, just really marking it.

And then we have, we toast to the week. So, we'll pour sparkling juice and just toast and say, “Hey, what did we see God do this week?” Like going back to that idea of stop and delight, we are setting a hard stop to the week. We are delighting. What did we see God do? What did he help us overcome? What can we thank Him for from this past week? And then we'll do an easy dinner. Think tacos, take and bake pizza spaghetti.

 

We use paperware, which is a bit controversial since I work as a master naturalist, but it has been an easy button for Sabbath that I'm not worried about like dishes piling up on the counter. And then we'll, we'll wrap it up with a sweet treat like ice cream and then our kids go to bed, or they'll listen to audio books. Audio books have been massive for our Sabbath because they're screen-free because we do put away all screens and work like devices on Sabbath, but they can listen to good books.

 

And my husband and I, we read, like people ask me, when do you find time to read? You don't find time to read. You have to make time to read. And for us, that's on the Sabbath mostly. And then Saturday we sleep in, we get up pretty early during the week and the kids just know like you don't wake mom and dad on the Sabbath. Like that's their day to sleep in.

 

Again, if you have a newborn or young children, that's gonna look different and that's okay. But for us, that's the season that we're in and our kids, they'll make themselves first breakfast and then eventually we'll get up and we'll join them for a second breakfast or some Sabbath. I don't want to cook at all. And so, it's just take and forage. And you know, I usually have a grocery delivery the day before or go to the grocery store and make sure we just have a ton of good stuff in the house. So, no one's, you know, everyone has what they need.

 

Then the rest of the day, it is just a day of delight. Reading books, playing games, being out in creation, visiting with neighbors, having great conversations together. Sabbath is this space where you get to do all those things during the week that you're like, oh, I wish I had time for that and you just don't get to them. Like recently my daughter during the week, she really wanted me, she's seven. She wanted me to sit down and watercolor paint with her, which I love doing, but it was a really busy week. And I just didn't have the space.

 

And so, I told her like, “Hey, I would love to do that. Can we do that on Sabbath?” And she was so happy with that answer. And come that Sabbath a few days later, she remembered, she came up to me. She's like, mom, it's time to paint. And she got all the supplies, and we went and sat outside at our picnic table and painted for the afternoon.

 

You know, Sabbath does so much for me as a mom to remove that guilt of the things I don't feel like I have time for because I know, and my kids know, Sabbath is coming and that's our day to be together and do those things.

 

Laura Dugger: (31:47 - 31:57) Hmm. Okay. That makes me curious. Then to how much of a vote does everyone in the family get for what Sabbath will look like?

 

Eryn Lynum: (31:57 - 34:02) Oh, that is a great question. No one's ever phrased it to me like that before. I love that. What we found that's been important to keep in mind is that we all individually find different things, restful and inspiring. I'll give you an example. One Sabbath, my husband, especially in the spring, he loves to work in the yard on Sabbath because he spends most of his week. He runs a construction company on the computer or on the phone. And so, in the spring, he wants to be out in the yard and trimming his fruit trees and just working with God's creation. And so, one Sabbath he comes and he has like the clippers in his hand and he's like, “Hey, let's go work on the yard.”

 

And I was like, that's great. You do that. I'm going to go read my book in the hammock. And I fell asleep for two hours while he worked on the yard. And so, a lot of this is being okay that yes, a lot of it's going to be together. Like I talked about, we did, we do communion together and we do meals together. And a lot of times we'll be out on a hike together. That's a favorite Sabbath activity. But a lot of times we're also doing separate activities.

 

The kids are enjoying their books or their audio books or their painting or their, uh, visiting the neighbor kids. And my husband and I are reading books on the back deck. And so, it's okay that there's going to be some together time and some separate time, you know, just being flexible with it. Like our first year of Sabbath, we went, we had to go like hardcore. We had to learn to stay. I think about in the book, I talk about the word abide meno in the Greek and it can mean to stay, to dwell, to remain.

 

So, we've spent our first year of Sabbath, not getting in the car. We stayed home and learned to just be home together. And after that year, we started to miss our time. We live in Colorado, missing our time hiking in the mountains. And so, we changed it. We said, okay, well, toward the end of Sabbath Saturday afternoon, Saturday evening, let's go hike or let's go have a picnic in the wilderness. And just being open to that, that God's going to change you as a family and change you individually. And just growing up in a Sabbath practice together.

 

Laura Dugger: (34:03 - 34:20) I like the freedom that you're communicating there. And then when you mentioned the neighborhood kids, it makes me curious. Do you encourage community for some of those who recharge with other people? Would you recommend Sabbath thing with others or just keeping it your family?

 

Eryn Lynum: (34:21 - 36:16) Absolutely. We love inviting others into Sabbath. And it actually started with, we started our Sabbath practice. It was so sweet because God convinced us to do this. And then our first Sabbath was on January 1st. That happened to be the first Saturday that we did it. So, it was like this fresh start. And right around that time, we had moved to a new neighborhood. And our neighbors near us are Messianic Jews.

 

And they follow Shabbat, the traditional Shabbat. And they invited us into that. It was the sweetest evening, and they have children, young children, like we do. So, like there's chaos and there's mess. And then there's sweet times of singing together and scripture reading. And they follow it much more the traditional method than our family has.

 

But it was so sweet to be invited into that and to get a picture for how to invite others into this rest. And so, absolutely, we encourage, especially our kids having friends over. And we do usually ask parents, hey, can you drop them off? And then we can bring them back maybe like later that day toward the end of our Sabbath. Or if you want to come pick them up. Because again, we like to just stay home if we can.

 

But our kids are to the point now too where they can ride their bikes over to friends' houses. And we're fine with that. They might not be home on Sabbath once in a while. It's not a regular thing. But they're getting fed. And we know that the people they're with are people who share our values, people that we do life together.

 

We love having bonfires in the backyard on Sabbath. Now one thing I have to be careful of is I don't want to invite people over and feel like I need to host or clean up first. And so, for one, we don't have full families over a whole lot on Sabbath because I just don't want any sort of self-induced, self-imposed pressure.

 

But sometimes it's so much fun to just be like, hey, let's go meet at a park and have a picnic dinner. Or let's have a family over and do a bonfire. Just making sure that you're keeping it really, really simple if you are going to incorporate community.

 

Laura Dugger: (36:17 - 37:54) Guess what? We are no longer an audio-only podcast. We now have video included as well. If you want to view the conversation each week, make sure you watch our videos. We're on YouTube, and you can access videos or find answers to any of your other questions about the podcast when you visit thesavvysauce.com.

 

Some of these things, like you said, “They do require forethought where you have the groceries coming or certain things in place. And I think you even refer to it as a sacred striving.” So, it's important for us to learn more about that. And here's a quick story.

 

I just remember we've moved states quite a few times in marriage. But when I was a young mom, there was a mom in the next season of life, and she had more kids than we did. And we went to church together, and she was just like, “Oh, we learned about Sabbath. That's not a thing for moms with multiples.” And I always wrestled with that, and I love her. She's a wonderful person. Maybe she's even changed her stance on that, so it's not to speak ill of her. But I do think that we can struggle with that because that's not an actual truth. I do think that's a message from the enemy.

 

So, I guess this is a two-part question. How do we protect ourselves from buying into a storyline that is not true that may hold us back from Sabbath? And then also, what is kind of the both and? It's both restful, and it requires a lot of work up front to make this a reality.

 

Eryn Lynum: (37:55 - 41:19) It does, and knowing that, that it is going to take work, but God's going to bless it. Think about Isaiah 55:10-11, that says, “Just like the rain and the snow go forth and produce life and bring forth life from the land, so my work goes out and does not return void or empty. It produces that which I sent it out for.”.

 

That is true for Sabbath and rest because, again, we find it all throughout scripture. So, know that it's going to take hard work, but God will not allow it to return void. He will bless our efforts as we step into His design that He created us for.

 

I talk about in the book a few ways that you have to prepare mentally, physically, and spiritually. So, mentally, for me, I have to just totally remove anything mentally that's going to distract me from rest. So, I own a business, and so a lot of my work is on the computer and on the phone. I will answer, so this is like Friday, I'll answer any lingering emails, those ones that are going to be on my mind if I don't get to them. And then I put an away message on my email. So, if anyone emails me on our Sabbath, it sends an automatic reply that says, hey, thanks for your message. My family's resting. It has a little blurb in there about Sabbath. I'll get back to you in the new week.

 

That gives me permission to not even look at my email. In fact, people expect that I'm not looking at my email if I'm keeping my word. And so, this has just freed me up mentally to step away, and then I literally put my laptop in my closet.

 

With my phone, I set it to a Sabbath mode, and you can create these different focus modes if you have a smartphone, so that I can only receive messages from my mom in case of emergency. And our people, our friends, they all know this now. Like, oh, I'm not going to hear back from Erin because it's Saturday for the most part.

 

And so, these little things that you might just need to mentally prepare yourself. And then physically, that goes back to preparing our home. So, this is not a deep clean that we do prior to Sabbath. It's just tending to the things that are going to distract me if we don't get to them beforehand. So, again, washing all the dishes and having the kitchen clean, vacuuming. Like, that's like just a hack to make the house feel clean is I feel like it's clean if it's vacuumed.

 

So, just these little things, and then physically also doing that grocery order. And I have a free Sabbath guide on my website, erinlynum.com/family-sabbath. And it walks you through creating your Sabbath grocery list so that every week you have what you need in the house. These little things that truly make it, Sabbath easier and more successful.

 

And then preparing spiritually, going into this, like a lot of times I'll know, okay, I'm going to study this on Sabbath. For our first year, I just had like this stack of books on Sabbath that I would work through on our Sabbath. Right now, I am parked in Genesis 1 and have been for weeks. And so, just preparing spiritually, you know, this is a time of communion with our creator, with our heavenly father. And so, just having an idea of, you know, this is how I want to spend time delighting in God on the Sabbath.

 

That might be a long walk. That might be time in the word or time of worship but making sure that that is a keystone part of your Sabbath practice.

 

Laura Dugger: (41:20 - 41:45) And, you know, it really is possible. I just think so many of us celebrate holidays and we do the same thing where we plan, prepare, prioritize ahead of time so that we can delight in that day. And what a gift to get to do that weekly. So, with all of these amazing benefits, why do we still resist God's design for rest?

 

Eryn Lynum: (41:46 - 43:00) Because we live in a fallen world, broken by sin, and the enemy wants to do everything he can to keep us from this. This is God's design and our faith, and our souls and our families flourish in this design. And so, the enemy is going to do whatever he can to keep us from it.

 

He's going to insert fear. He's going to insert distraction. He's going to insert doubt. You know, when we started this practice coming up to it, I was thinking, there's no way, like how are we going to get everything done in one last day a week, all these doubts. And yet what we found so quickly is that as we took this step of faith, we quickly became so much more productive and effective and creative during the work week, because we were starting from rest and following God's design.

 

We resist this because it is counter-cultural. Everything in society is set up against us doing this and succeeding in this. So, again, going and knowing that our war is not against flesh and blood. It is against the powers of the spheres, like things unseen. The enemy is against us, but God is on our side. And as we step into his design, he's going to make much of it.

 

Laura Dugger: (43:01 - 43:12) Okay. So, if we are convinced and we want to give this a try, what is a practical first step to just obeying this and receiving this gift of rest?

 

Eryn Lynum: (43:13 - 45:23) Yeah, super practical here. Two first steps. The first is to set a day and time. Now you're not committing to this forever. And again, if you, if a big hesitancy here is I can't do a full day. Okay. Work and pray toward that but start smaller. If it's four hours on a Wednesday, guard that time. Ruthlessly guard it. Don't let anything be written on the schedule besides that.

 

So, set a day in time and then write two lists. This is going back to the idea of stop and delight, right? Your stop list. These are things that send you into hurry and hustle mode, things that are related to normal work, things that feel heavy. Some of them are so important.

 

Again, our work is important, but this is going to be things like devices, media, regular work, answering emails, phone calls. It might be driving in traffic. It might be spending money. Write down those things that feel heavy. That's your stop list. The things you're not going to entertain on that day or that time.

 

And then write your delight list. This might be hard at first because what I've found with myself, with many of us is that we forget what we delight in but causes that childlike sense of play and wonder. This is learning to be human again, coming back to those things.

 

So, it might be playing music or listening to music, working with fresh ingredients, reading a good book, writing by hand, watercolor painting, going for a walk. What we find is that a lot of people who spend time during the week in front of a computer want to be outdoors on the Sabbath, but people who run a landscaping company might want to be inside with a great book. So, just writing down those things that are, again, those things that you think during the week, oh, I really wish I could get to that.

 

Only we don't. Those are your delight list. So, now you have a day and a time. You know what you're not going to do, what you're setting aside, even physically, that should probably most definitely be your phone. Stick it in a drawer. I have my Sabbath drawer where I put my phone, and then you know what you're going to do and spend that day on.

 

Laura Dugger: (45:24 - 45:47) That's so good. And for those who have been listening for a while, they could even put their phone in their RO box, and I could link to that episode as well with Joey Odom. That's incredible about where our phone could be in its right place.

 

But Eryn, are there any other practical benefits that we might be missing out on that you've seen as a result of this Sabbath rest?

 

Eryn Lynum: (45:48 - 49:44) One of my favorite benefits is how it unlocks our creativity. Whether you work in a career or position that you consider creative or not, God designed all of us to be creative, to produce. And so, what I have found is that my work, my work is very in that creative sphere, writing books, creating podcast lessons for children.

 

It's very creative work. And I've found that Sabbath is this day where God gives my mind rest. It's so incredible thinking about how he wired our brains to thrive through rest, and science points to that that a restful mind is better at problem-solving, connecting ideas, remembering details.

 

And so, as my mind is allowed to rest on Sabbath, and I'm out on a walk in nature, or I'm reading a good book, or I'm writing by hand, when it comes time to sit down at the computer Monday morning, I am ready. I am flowing with ideas. They are there.

 

And I'll give you an example. This one isn't from Sabbath. It's from one of my daily rest rhythms that I call Selah Pause, and that's a walk in the morning. And this might be a little controversial, but this is not an easy stroll. I have my rucking pack on, and I'm trekking up a hill, which is not physically restful, of course, but it's mentally restful for me. I love it.

 

And so, it was in January, so it's frigid out, and everything's covered in snow, and I'm in all my snow gear, and I'm trudging up this hill. And at the time, I was dealing with a problem in my podcast where it was a good problem. We had spent the month teaching about God's designs in the human body. So, we had taught kids about God's designs in cells and DNA and the heart and the brain, but I didn't want to just let this series end. I wanted to wrap it up in some powerful way, and I didn't know how. So, I could have stayed home that morning and hashed this out and been at the computer, and how should I end this thing?

 

Instead, I went on this walk, and God just dropped this idea in my mind. And it was this idea. He said, ask the kids how they are wonderfully made. And that was the top. The theme was wonderfully made. And so, I put it out there to my email list. When I got back from that walk, I said, hey, I would love to hear how you kids believe you are wonderfully made by the creator. And I opened up this little voice mailbox on our website, and I didn't know if anyone would respond. And then I'm like, what if they don't? And then I don't know what to do because I said I'm going to do this thing.

 

I tell you, message after message came in from children from ages. I think it was three or four up to 14 from all over the world. And I was weeping as I edited that episode. I had planned to add something at the beginning and the end to build out this episode. I didn't do that because it was, I believe it's 22 minutes straight of children saying, this is my name.

 

I'm five years old. I live in England and I'm wonderfully made because God made me to read well or God made me fast. Or one little boy shared, he said, I know I'm wonderfully made because my mama lost a baby before me. And I'm here and I'm wonderfully made. And I'm weeping.

 

And this idea that God gave me, I would have missed it if I hadn't taken that pause to be out in his creation walking that day. And so, that's a very roundabout way to get back to your question of what are the other benefits? We hear from God when we make time for rest. And if we keep just rushing and hurrying, I'm concerned that we are walking by so many opportunities to hear from his spirit and to let him unlock that potential within us.

 

Laura Dugger: (49:45 - 50:22) Oh, I love that. And I'm even reminded of one other thing that you write in your book that today, one way we can practically experience his original design of rest is by stepping outside. And you're full of tips and ideas like that, but I so appreciate those stories.

 

So, you've equipped us with this foundation of rest and ways that we can prepare for it, how we can enjoy and delight in it. And so now, Eryn, how can we reflect well on our rhythms of work and rest?

 

Eryn Lynum: (50:25 - 53:19) So, much of this is reflection. So, much of this is stopping to consider where God is at work in our lives, where we need to recalibrate, where we need to realign, where we need to step back into his pace because we're trying to run ahead of him. And one way that we can see it, you know, like you might ask the question, am I at rest? Even me sometimes on Sabbath, I'm like, am I doing this right? Like, is this actually restful? Is this what I'm supposed to be doing?

 

I think we can answer that question by the fruit in our lives, the fruit inside of us that God is producing and the fruit that we are producing. So, one thing I kind of sum up the book on is this question of, are you growing in truth and love? Because the enemy, when he gets us away from God's rest and into hustle, into distraction and hurry, we are not fully experiencing God.

 

And so, our levels of experiencing his love and offering it to others is going to suffer. Our experience of hearing his truth and living that truth out in our lives is going to suffer. And so, the opposite is true that as we live at rest, this whole concept of abide, that is living at rest, not just these rest practices, but living at rest in God's restful presence, we are going to be producing more love and more truth.

 

So, that's like a key visual. And then I love on that idea of abide. We spent a whole week on abide in the book and, you know, John chapter 15 being the abide passage. And what we see there is there's these 11 mentions of that word abide. And they all refer to us abiding in Christ, Christ abiding in us, God's word abiding in us. So, all this connectivity between Christ and God and us and his word.

 

But then it's, I think it's verse 16. There's a different mention of meno, abide. And it says that he wants us to go out and produce fruit that abides. So, this is different. It relates to our fruit and that word abide. Yes, it can mean dwell, remain, stay, but it can also mean continue and endure.

 

God created us to produce fruit and fruit that endures. Doesn't rot, doesn't fade, but continues into eternity. So, we can look at, okay, am I personally in my spirit? Am I growing in truth and love? Because God's spirit actually has the space to minister to me when I rest. And is that rest directly affecting the fruit of my life?

 

These are key things that we can look at and ask to see. Are we truly living from God's rest?

 

Laura Dugger: (53:19 - 53:53) I love questions so much. And that's so good to reflect then on the fruit that's being produced. And a mentor many years ago said, you never reap what you sow in the same season. So, that's a great place to even begin just reflecting. What did we do in the past season and what fruit are we reaping now? And where do we want to go then from here?

 

And one place we could go from here after this chat is to follow you. And you've mentioned your podcast. Do you want to elaborate on all the places that you're available?

 

Eryn Lynum: (53:54 - 55:03) Yes, thank you. So, the new book, The Nature of Rest is available wherever you get your books, along with my second book, Rooted in Wonder: Nurturing Your Family's Faith Through God's Creation. And that's all about taking our kids or grandkids, the next generation outside and reconnecting the dots between creation and creator. Really returning nature study and time outdoors to its proper place as theology and the study of God.

 

So, those are available anywhere, including Amazon or my website, which is my name, erynlynum.com. And then my podcast is Nat Theo, short for Natural Theology. It's nature lessons rooted in the Bible. It's a podcast for kids and families where we dive deep into science and all the design and intelligence we see in creatures and plants. And we tie it all back to biblical truth so that our kids are learning science and theology at the same time.

 

And that's available on any podcast platform, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, right on my website, erinlynum.com, as well as YouTube. We actually provide visuals so you can watch what you're learning about as well.

 

Laura Dugger: (55:04 - 55:22) So, incredible. We will add links to that in the show notes for today's episode. And Eryn, you may already be familiar. We're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Eryn Lynum: (55:24 - 56:34) I love this question. And this is one that actually I was like, oh, I'm not asked this much. I'm going to have to really think deeply on this one.

 

It's get outside every day. That seems so simple, even though it's not really simple in practicality. But one thing I've learned through rest and through time outdoors is that 10 minutes matters. Like if you think I don't have time for this, but you have a 10 minute slot, go for a walk and see how God just communes with your spirit. Even in the dead of winter, if you live somewhere cold, like if it's safe to do so. For me, I had to buy like the best pair of snow pants I could find because I used to really dislike the winter. And I would just become like really down in those winter months.

 

And so, God just convinced me, don't go outside every single day if it's for 10 minutes. And then pretty often he just extends that. Like I think I'm going out for 10 minutes. And sure enough, I'm like playing with my kids outside. It's much longer.

 

But yeah, as best as you can, just prioritize that. If you have to do it first thing in the morning to make sure it happens, go for a walk and watch the sunrise. And God is going to minister to your soul through his creation.

 

Laura Dugger: (56:35 - 56:54) Amen. Amen. That is so good.

 

And this conversation has been so rich. Eryn, it is just very clear you have filled up on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you have just poured out goodness and love and truth for all of us, all over all of us today. So, thank you for all that you shared. And thank you for being my guest.

 

Eryn Lynum: (56:55 - 57:03) Thank you. Thank you so much for that encouragement. That means a whole lot to me. So, thank you. And for the opportunity for a great conversation.

 

Laura Dugger: (57:03 - 1:03:10) I really enjoyed it. 

 

One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Better Together: Special Patreon Release with Jon and Jolene Rocke

Special Patreon Release: Better Together with Jon and Jolene Rocke

 

"What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." Mark 10:9 (KJV)

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. What are you so thankful you did in every season of marriage, from newlyweds to empty nesters that you see the pay off now in the present?
2. How has grace and forgiveness benefited your relationship?
3. What advice do you have for all of us married couples as we seek to grow as one, rather than grow parallel or even grow apart from one another?

 

Jon and Jolene Rocke are my local friends and my guests for today. They work side by side at Peoria Rescue ministries, and they have so many lovely gifts of leadership and hospitality and teaching, but the topic we are going to focus on today is marriage. From the first time we met, Mark and I adored them and appreciated their sweet bond with one another, and I'm so thrilled to introduce you to them today. Here's our chat:

 

Jon and Jolene both grew up in Christian homes and accepted Jesus as their Savior and Lord at the age of 15.  Jon is from Morton and Jolene from Elgin, IL. They met on a bus ride to a Youth Gathering in Minnesota.  They sat together and talked the whole way home about life, the Bible and God.  Jon played his guitar and sang John Denver songs and their match was made with “Sunshine on my Shoulders”.

 

They married at the age of 18 and had their first child, Janelle, at 19.  They left for Grace college in Winona Lake, Indiana with an 18 month old toddler in tow and had another baby girl born while in college named Jaime.  At graduation in 1984, they were accepted to Trinity Seminary to follow Jon’s desire to be a Professor of Theology, but became pregnant with their son, Jordan, which changed every plan and sent them back home to build up their finances.

 

They came back to Morton and worked in the Family Business and felt called to stay.  They raised their 3 children in Morton working in the business until God loosened their tent pegs and called them to Peoria Rescue Ministries in 2017. Jon is the Executive Director and Jolene is the Ministry Ambassador.  They are thankful to be working side-by-side in this new season of their marriage.

 

Jon and Jolene will celebrate their 44th wedding anniversary and have 3 married children and have 10 grandchildren. Their son Jordan and his wife Jessica live in Sandpoint, Idaho with their 3 Kids.  Their daughter Janelle and husband Ryan live in Kennesaw, Georgia with their 3 children.  And their daughter Jaime and her husband Jonathan live here in Morton with their 4 children.

 

Related Episodes from The Savvy Sauce:

5 Love Languages with Dr. Gary Chapman

Traveling with Your Family with Katie Mueller

 

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.

 

Five Love Languages

The 5 Love Languages of Teenagers

A Teen's Guide to the 5 Love Languages

 

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:09)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 2:05) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. I want to say a huge thank you to today's sponsors for this episode, Chick-fil-A East Peoria and Savvy Sauce Charities.

 

Are you interested in a free college education for you or someone you know? Stay tuned for details coming later in this episode from today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. You can also visit their website today at https://www.chick-fil-a.com/locations/il/east-peoria.

 

If you've been with us long, you know this podcast is only one piece of our nonprofit, which is the Savvy Sauce Charities. Don't miss out on our other resources. We have questions and content to inspire you to have your own practical chats for intentional living.

 

And I also hope you don't miss out on the opportunity to financially support us through your tax-deductible donations. All this information can be found on our recently updated website, thesavvysauce.com.

 

Jon and Jolene Rocke are my local friends and my guests for today. They work side by side at Peoria Rescue Ministries, and they have so many lovely gifts of leadership and hospitality and teaching. But the topic we're going to focus on today is marriage. From the first time we met, Mark and I adored them so much and really appreciated their sweet bond with one another. And I'm so thrilled to get to introduce you to them today.

 

Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Jon and Jolene.

 

Jon Rocke: (2:05 - 2:06) We're so happy to be here, Laura. Thanks so much for having us.

 

Laura Dugger: (2:07 - 2:43) Well, it's truly my pleasure. And will the two of you just start by giving us a little background on how you came to know Christ as your personal Lord and Savior?

 

Jolene Rocke: (2:07 - 2:43) Yeah, I grew up in the Chicago area in a suburb and in a Christian home. So, I was very thankful to know about God. And I came to know Him as my personal Savior at 15. And so, then I really had a complete change. And from then on, I have just followed Him as close as I can. So very thankful for Jesus.

 

Jon Rocke: (2:44 - 2:59) Yeah, and I was actually 15 as well. Became overwhelmed with my sin at 15 and knew that I did not know Christ. And so, since then, a very imperfect following, but glad to be part of the family.

 

Laura Dugger: (3:00 - 3:15) Well, and that's awesome that both of you were 15 and never knew that piece of your story. But I'm assuming you were living in different places. So then how did the two of you meet and fall in love?

 

Jolene Rocke: (3:15 - 4:40) That is such a funny story. Because I, along with a friend of mine from Elgin, jumped on a Morton bus going to Morris, Minnesota. And they picked us up in Rockford. And we got on the bus, went to the same youth gathering for our church denomination. And on the way home from that weekend, we sat on the bus the whole way home and talked.

 

And Jon had what was so interesting to me, a study Bible. And I had never seen a study Bible in my life. And so, he showed me what an open Bible was with notes at the bottom. And because I came to Christ at 15 and started Bible study on my own with just a spiral notebook, a pen, and my Bible, I was fascinated by this Bible.

 

And I heard from Morton girls that he carried his Bible everywhere. So, he was kind of different than the rest of the guys. And I told them that's the kind of guy I was looking for. And then to top it all off, he had a guitar. And he sang John Denver songs to me. So, Sunshine on My Shoulders, I think, really made me happy.

 

Laura Dugger: (4:40 - 4:45) Just knowing your family music is such a big part of worship. Yeah. That's part of what wooed you, too.

 

Jon Rocke: (4:40 - 5:35) Yeah. Part of the crazy story is that it's a long trip. It's like a 12-hour trip. And so, we left Morton at like 5 in the morning. And so, I'm sleeping on the floor. And we picked these girls up. And I wake up, and I'm like, “Oh, an angel just got on the bus.” That's what I thought. And she was like, she didn't really have anything to do with me the whole weekend till the way home.

 

But we have a lot of fun with that story. And so that was the beginning. I think I sent flowers the next day. And we began, actually, a very long-distance, over-the-phone relationship, getting to know each other. And we actually went through, I think, the Book of Romans together over the course of, I guess, a year. And then got married. And we were pretty young.

 

Jolene Rocke: (5:36 - 6:47) Yeah. We met when Jon was just 16. And then two weeks after his 18th birthday, we got married. And I'm a year older. So, it was very young. But we are so thankful because we're going to celebrate 44 years of marriage here.

 

So, God knit us together, I think, through the fact that we were both really pursuing the Lord individually. And then we were so happy to find somebody like that. I thought I was headed to be a missionary in Africa at the time I met him. And he was, like, searching, too. But both all out pursuit of Christ. And so, I think that's what knit our hearts together. And it didn't hurt that he sent flowers the next day.

 

Laura Dugger: (6:47 - 7:15) It was a wise move. But I love it because the two of you have really grown up together. Totally. You've been meeting as teens. When you reflect back, what are you so thankful that you did in every season of marriage, from newlyweds to now empty nesters, that you're getting to see the payoff now in the present?

 

Jon Rocke: (6:49 - 8:10) Yeah, I think sometimes you are intentional. And we've tried to be intentional. But I think sometimes God brings circumstances into your life that sort of force something. So not only were we young when we got married, but nine months after we got married, yeah, we had Janelle, our oldest daughter.

 

And so, we had to realize we still needed time together. And we had a little baby. It began, I think, an intentional course for us to carve out time. So, you know, we put our kids to bed early. It was a big deal for us as parents that we had our time after they went to bed because we didn't get a whole lot of time.

 

And other little silly things, the kids didn't get to sit in between us at church. That was the rule. You can sit on either side of mom and dad, but you can't sit in between us. And so that was just, you know, again, a little thing that we did. And some things we had to learn. I'm more of a night person. Jolene's more of a morning person. Part of that, we had to learn at one point, you know, let's make sure we prioritize going to bed together. Just so, again, we had that time. So, there's been all sorts of different steps along the way that we've tried to prioritize each other.

 

Jolene Rocke: (8:10 - 9:01) So the two words that come to my mind with regard to that are compromise. You're two different people, and you're suddenly thrust together into a home situation. Well, that took compromise on both of our parts. So that's kind of sacrifice, too. That means he doesn't get to stay up until midnight if we want to go to bed together, and I'm going to have to push myself to stay up later just so that we can make a common bedtime.

 

So, compromise, and then I think the other major thing to me would be communication, because we didn't have a relationship before marriage where we were in the same town and could see each other all the time or go on dates. We didn't have that. So, we had letter writing. This is 43 years ago. So, we had letter writing daily.

 

Jon Rocke: (9:02 - 9:04) Some of us were daily. He was daily.

 

Jolene Rocke: (9:05 - 9:11) I wasn't quite as good at letter writing every day, but I was in college by now.

 

Jon Rocke: (9:11 - 9:13) You were still in high school. Now we know.

 

Jolene Rocke: (9:14 - 10:15) But I think the communication factor, that actually helped us because, yes, I realize face-to-face dating is a great thing, but to not be able to do that and have nothing but be able to write your day out, what happened during your day, you're learning to tell the other person what happened in your day, how you felt about that, what your dreams, your goals are. So, it started, to me and us, I think a great foundation of communication.

 

Laura Dugger: (10:15 - 10:30) And is it Song of Songs, I believe, 5:16, where part of it says, “This is my lover, this is my friend,” and that's what I'm hearing, is that you were really deepening your friendship in those early years and that from witnessing your lives, it seems that has only continued.

 

Jolene Rocke: (10:30 - 10:35) Yeah, exactly. We are so thankful. It's a very different story than most people, but we're so thankful.

 

Jon Rocke: (10:16 - 10:39) I think also, for us, it was Genesis 2 in the sense that you need to leave everything else and cleave together. We were young. It's hard to believe. When we look back, we think about our kids and our grandkids and would we want that for them, and yet I don't think we'd trade it for the world.

 

Laura Dugger: (10:40 - 10:52) I love that. And what encouragement do you have for others then who are also wanting to build a foundation of remaining connected and intimate in all the aspects of their own marriage?

 

Jon Rocke: (10:53 - 12:07) That's one of those things about being intentional. Matthew 19:6, where Christ repeats that adage from Genesis 2, that God created them male and female, they need to leave mother and father and cleave together, but then he adds this, “and no one should tear that apart.” And we often think about that, I think, as other people tearing that apart, and that's true.

 

But the same goes, we can tear ourselves apart if we're not going to make sure everything else, all other distractions, because they're going to continually come, right? And again, we had kids so early that I think we knew we had to carve that time out, because if we wouldn't have, I'm not sure how that would have worked. We would have been so consumed early. But career, we've just known that we've had to say, if we don't make sure that we're the priority, it's so easy to get lost in all the other things of life that are not bad. Kids are not bad, they're great. And your careers and your work, that's all good. But it can be the enemy of great in a marriage.

 

Jolene Rocke: (12:07 - 12:32) Yeah, we talked about the fact that this is how we started all those years ago. But a pursuit of God individually actually enhances a pursuit of God together. I'm still in the Word individually. Jon's still in the Word individually. But we also then read and pray together every night. So just this pursuit of God.

 

Jon Rocke: (12:32 - 13:06) But that wasn't something we did from day one either. I mean, that was a learned scenario where one time we were just kind of convicted of the fact that together we're not taking time to pray and read together. And so, then we just made that part of routine at night. So then again, that made us say we're going to go to bed together. Because if we didn't, then we didn't have that time. That opportunity to pray together and read together has just become a connection point that we wouldn't want to trade.

 

Laura Dugger: (13:07 - 13:55) I think that's encouraging in so many ways because you've grown into this. And I think for anyone just starting out, it's so helpful to see you didn't let excuses get in the way. It reminds me of a supervisor in college who said, “If you want something done, give it to a busy person.” And I think in a unique way with you two being launched into parenthood nine months after you were married, you didn't have the luxury of being frivolous with your time. And you chose intentionality. And it seems like God really has blessed that and honored it.

 

Jolene Rocke: (13:55 - 14:05) Yeah and continued it to this day. You're very right. We continue to be busy. And that's still the struggle to combat that with intentional time together. So definitely.

 

Jon Rocke: (13:55 - 14:31) You talk about seasons in our lives. So, I had to have a hip replacement. So, from like 23 till I had that at 50, I couldn't take long walks. But now we get to walk together, which is a huge privilege. And so, I always think about it. I'm not into exercise to exercise, but I'm into being together. And exercise is a thing we can do together. The other thing we did in our, I guess it was on our 25th. We got a tandem bike. And we love doing our tandem bike.

 

Jolene Rocke: (14:31 - 16:21) But he wanted a tandem bike right when we got married. And I kept saying, no, I didn't really want to sit on the back and have no control. And not be able to see when I thought I should break or when I wanted to turn.

 

So, this is something that I often encourage women that are moving into the emptiness season of life. I was driving to church alone. And the Lord really impressed on me that the extreme lavish amount of love that as a homemaker I gave to my children who were now gone, I needed to transfer that to my husband.

 

I've always loved Jon first and best. But I needed to take even the time commitment. What could I do to show Jon I loved him lavishly the way I tried to my children? So that was a time thing for me. And it was like get a tandem bike. So, I was willing then to get the tandem and sit in the back. And you really do; you're called the stoker. You really do work in the back. You don't just sit there. You work. But I no longer had the control of that. And I am learning to see butterflies land on corn stalks. And I actually love our tandem bike. But God had to grow me. And that was part of my several gifts to him in emptiness period that has helped us keep a strong marriage, I think.

 

Laura Dugger: (16:21 - 16:30) And isn't that interesting how there's a gift in it for you? Like you offer this sacrifice and yet he's teaching you new things.

 

Jon Rocke: (16:21 - 16:22) I love it, yeah.

 

Laura Dugger: (16:23 - 16:45) What would you two say is the biggest personality difference that you've recognized in your own marriage?

 

Jolene Rocke: (16:45 - 17:22) We just had a personality test yesterday. We have an executive team leadership at Peoria Rescue Ministries, and we had to do personality tests again. And that always is quite glaring to see how different we are. So, we're on two ends of the spectrum. But we can encourage any marriage that that can work and actually maybe be in your favor as long as you work hard at it. So, it just takes work and communication to say, you're very logical thinking, I'm very emotional, so how do we come together then in situations where I'm flustered and he's calm because he at times looks as if you don't care.

 

Jon Rocke: (17:22 - 17:53) Right, yeah, it can be that. You're highly relational. I'm definitely more process. And I think you're going to learn quickly, especially if you have kids, that all your kids are going to have different personalities. That's the weirdest thing, right? They all grew up in the same home and they're all just completely different. And so being able to help them understand kind of a little bit who they are and how that works has been a good thing that we're not the same.

 

Jolene Rocke: (17:53 - 20:01) God didn't make one good and one bad. He made all of us different, all in His image, to His glory. We all bring value to the family, and we both bring value to one another as helpmates because I'm able to sharpen Jon in areas that are blind spots for him. He's able to totally sharpen me and calm me in blind spots that are mine. So, I think in a marriage, it's just actually, it's been helpful. Differences are good.

 

Laura Dugger: (20:01 - 20:25) Oh, I love that. Differences are good. It sounds like God sanctified even your views of that. And so, getting really practical, when was a time when your differences were working against each other or caused conflict? And then how, through maturing and more time together, how do you celebrate and even lean into and appreciate those differences?

 

Jolene Rocke: (20:25 - 21:00) Well, one thing for sure is we had what we call our valley, where we learned that Psalm 23 wasn't just a funeral psalm, but it's a life psalm, and it's a way of life psalm. So, at that time, I had three family members pass away, and Jon had his family business go down. So, we watched our personalities within that in handling loss and grief. So, here's the optimist really down, and here's realist trying to be cheerleader and be up.

 

And so actually God did it, and we know without a doubt that God can work beyond personalities and bring you to a point where you can actually support one another well. But there again, it's got to be intentional. It's got to be me saying, we need to sit down now and have a meeting, talk about how you're feeling, whether you want to talk about feelings or not, because I need to know where you're at so that I can help you best.

 

Jon Rocke: (20:01 - 21:20) Yeah, and on a practical level during that time, I found myself not communicating some of what I thought was either scary or just the long drag of it. And so that was a potential way for us to disconnect because all of this is swirling from at least our livelihood standpoint, swirling in my head, and I'm not going to want to share that. And yet we realized we had to, but then those are not always easy things because Jolene, like most ladies, likes security as an important thing, right? Of just knowing what's going to happen.

 

In the end, it did make us really, again, Joe mentioned Psalm 23, and if he is our shepherd, what else could we want? We both had to end up clinging to that because our security was gone. Part of our sense of who we were, and particularly me in a family business for three generations, was gone. And so, we certainly had to make sure that our tendencies, like in communication, those kinds of things, we had to work through those during that time.

 

Laura Dugger: (21:21 - 21:30) Thank you for sharing that. I think that's very relatable to hear about the ups and the downs. And so, do you have any specific stories of a time when you were both in your strengths, and even though they were very different, they worked well together?

 

Jolene Rocke: (21:30 - 23:12) Yeah, I think that it's the learning what your strengths are that you may not know that God gives you at the time, and that's his grace. So, at the time, for all those years previous to the valley, Jon was the one that pushed me to communicate, and shutting down was not an option, which is what I wanted to do. So, I'd rather just not talk about it and go to bed. And he would push, push, push me to keep communicating, and that we would work through everything before the sun went down, as the Bible says.

 

Well, in the valley, it was Jon that was shutting down. And suddenly, you know, I had to be the one to push communication. So, this is something I heard on a sermon. A personality is not an excuse for sin. So that just means that I can't say, well, I'm not comfortable in conflict, so I'm not going to communicate and I'm going to shut down. No, you need to push yourself, ask the Lord for help, and go as his helpmate and say, you have to talk about it, you have to tell me, how are you doing? How are you feeling? So, I feel like it's just, it was such a beautiful valley when we look back now.

 

Laura Dugger: (23:12 - 23:25) Another previous guest had said she noticed when she was in the valley, that's when you're closest to the living water.

 

Jon Rocke: (23:13 - 24:41) Oh, absolutely. For sure. That's how creeks run, through valleys. Yeah. And I think our parenting, it was helpful for us to have both sides of our personality in parenting because I think we could address situations with our kids from different viewpoints and different ways to think about things, and those were helpful things as well.

 

But we also, during all sorts of the periods of time in our marriage, we had some little things that just reminded us. We had little words. So one was, you know, “we need to swim back.” So, you can often find yourself, because of a season of time or a season with your kids or whatever on the different islands, and we would just say, we got to swim back. And so that was one of our things that we did. And then we also had a, if we went too long, we just realized we weren't intentional about our intimacy of any kind. It was just basically, “Hey, you didn't kiss me today.” And we used to make that, “No, you didn't kiss me today.” And it was just a thing we tried to do to make sure that we had these little things that just kept us reminded. And so, they were really, they were kind of practical, just little code words for us that made a difference and got our minds back to where it needed to be.

 

Jolene Rocke: (24:41 - 24:50) Yeah, and in the busyness, that's easy to remember those little swing thoughts.

 

Laura Dugger: (24:50 - 30:17) Swim back. And now a brief message from our sponsor.

 

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Now, back to the show. What encouragement do you have for healthy communication and healthy conflict resolution in marriage?

 

Jon Rocke: (30:19 - 31:31) God's grace. It's going to have to take time. You have to find that time together. So, I think it's all about prioritizing that time. I don't necessarily like conflict, but I know in our marriage you can't avoid it. And so, we just had to work through it right away. And so, I would say don't let time simmer conflict because that usually never makes it better.

 

Certainly, there's a sense of if there's something that's really emotional and maybe you need some space. My problem is I often don't give Jolene that space and that's hard on her, it really is, and sometimes not fair. But in the same vein, for me it felt like I didn't care if I just said, “Well, go ahead and be angry or be whatever or be upset about this or just let's not deal with it.” And she was gracious in pressing in and doing that. But I think don't let time go, just deal with it.

 

Jolene Rocke: (31:32 - 33:26) And two, the encouragement I think of is that Jon and I tell each other everything, every little thing. And we are very aware of couples that don't. And when Jon was holding back for me in that valley time, I really noticed it and I felt pretty alone. So, if you're always telling each other everything, there should be no secrets. So that just means there might be conflict then. If you're going to tell each other everything, then there might be conflict and you need to be prepared for that.

 

But that's better than me not saying anything. I sometimes say it's like a teapot, you're simmering or you're spouting. What's the perfect in the middle balance? It's really important to not simmer because you will spout eventually and then that's a harder conflict than if you just kept talking, kept telling every little thing. And so, we do tell each other every little thing.

 

Laura Dugger: (33:26 - 33:40) Well, and to go with that metaphor, if you have a release valve where that hot air can escape, it sounds like your communication has been that where you can get the water temperature back to a healthy place in the relationship.

 

Jolene Rocke: (33:40 - 33:55) Yeah, yes. And that takes work. So, I mean, honestly, what encouragement? Don't give up. Just keep going because it's worth it.

 

Laura Dugger: (33:55 - 34:10) Well, and I'm thinking back. Okay, so you had three kids. They're somewhat close together and you were young. So those years when all of your children were in the home, even elementary school age, that timeframe, what did that look like for communication? How did you still make sure you connected every day?

 

Jon Rocke: (33:26 - 34:31) Well, then throw in, we went to college after we had kids, which was actually, again, just God's grace and gift to us that we were able to leave town, leave the family business for a while, didn't think we were going to be involved in family business, went out to Indiana, went to school, and we didn't have anybody else but ourselves. And so that, again, was just his gift to us as young. We went in 1980, so that was two years after we were married. So, we already had Janelle at that point, and then Jamie came along soon after. And so, I had school but had to work to support. Jolene had to work and she was mom to two little ones. And so, again, I think it was just those times of making sure that we said nothing else can get in the way of us. Again, another phrase that we just had was, you know, we can get through anything together and nothing apart.

 

Jolene Rocke: (34:32 - 35:21) And that's not a flippant statement for us. That means we're trying and we're going to find the intentional time, put them to bed early, and make sure on weekends we're connecting well. And that meant sometimes driving with our kids. We'd go on drives. But that's Jon and I being able to talk. And then if they're goofing off in the back seat, it's okay. It's just fine because we actually are having talk time. Drive time has always been great communication time for us.

 

Laura Dugger: (35:21 - 35:35) That's really helpful, I think, for parents in any season. And you're talking about God's grace. So how has grace, and even forgiveness, benefited your relationship?

 

Jolene Rocke: (35:35 - 35:40) It's everything to our relationship.

 

Jon Rocke: (35:22 - 37:12) It's the only thing in everything. The parable of the unjust steward in Matthew 18 and just this idea that if you catch the enormity of your sin, then you can forgive others. And so that has been, I think, an important part of what we do because I love that whole story. Peter is asking that question, “How many times do I have to forgive somebody?” And if you think about a marriage context, well, that's a great question because my guess is it's going to be thousands upon thousands of times for whatever little or big things they are. And he's kind of like loading up. I feel that he's getting ready to say, “I've already forgiven this person six times. So, is it seven? And then after that, there's no more?” And the whole point of that is, oh, you really want to keep numbers, Peter? Here's the numbers. You've been forgiven zillions. And so, what's the little trifle amount that you're not going to forgive? And so, I'm thankful that Jolene is gracious because she's had to forgive me and continues to. We're still learning in a new season of life where now we get to work together, which to me is a really great joy. But it's also a different reality where we have a lot of work talk. Well, that's great. And we love that. But that can't dominate everything either. And so that's another one of those things that we have to figure out how to carve out our time away from work. Even though we enjoy working together and it's really fun, it's a new thing. That can't get in the way of us either.

 

Jolene Rocke: (37:13 - 40:14) There's got to be grace on both parts that now as I look at him as a boss also. And my husband, you know, I need to give a lot of grace to realize he's working within a momentum around a team and a leadership. But then as he comes home, and I'm very fully aware now of what a hat change that means for a man. That means that he's taking off his hat now and becoming my husband at home. And so, it's grace on both sides as he sees me working even under him or with him as a team. But it's a lot of grace and forgiveness over the years because in the early years as you're raising children, there might be unmet expectations is something I wrote down because I feel like as I think back to this pursuer of God and who I married and I remember those early years thinking, well, wow, he's not leading in devotions in the family. And I'm kind of struggling to find, I need to, as the mom then, pick that up and make sure we're doing with the children some family devotions. Well, that can create controversy. It can be that I would be upset, but I needed to forgive him for the fact that he didn't mean to do that and abdicate that responsibility. He just didn't know. And so, there's so much about being graceful as a wife to say, okay, I understand. That wasn't maybe how you were raised, or you didn't see that modeled in the home. But this is what I would desire for our family. And so, you just keep working and you keep forgiving because we've been forgiven so much, as Jon said. So, we know that. And I think the other key thing then with forgiveness becomes no record keeping, just as love is in 1 Corinthians 13. It doesn't keep the record of wrongs. I don't need to sit around with my time and in my brain and think about how much I've forgiven Jon. I need to think about the fact that God's forgiven so much in me, and he has to forgive me all the time. So, you're on this equal footing with forgiveness rather than trying to harbor a record of wrongs.

 

Laura Dugger: (40:14 - 40:40) Well, and I think you bring up examples for how it works in our families as well with children. And so, it's clear you two have such a solid marriage and you also have a thriving relationship with your adult children and your grandchildren and all their families. So, I think you just have a lot that you could teach us about raising a family as well. What are you so thankful that you did when your kids were living at home that you're now getting to see the payoff as they're adults?

 

Jon Rocke: (40:16 - 41:43) We literally grew up with our kids. So sorry for our kids that they had to, you know, grow up with their mom and dad. But that's been a lot of fun too because we did a lot of play. Again, these are just little things for us, these little words. So, as the kids were young, we used to, something that bothered them is I would tell them pretty plainly that I love mom most. And so, kids will always try to drive a wedge between mom and dad. That's just part of the fallen nature of kids. And so, we really communicated early. Our kids will tell you that was a hard lesson for them to learn that they didn't quite understand at that age, right? But they've really come to appreciate that in their own marriages. And then the other thing that we said was we choose you second. So, they knew we choose each other first because you're going to be gone someday and mom's not. And so, but we will always choose you second. So, friends were not a higher priority or social or hobby or anything. You know, the kids were always knew they were second. And so our kids are scattered all across, although we have Jamie and Jonathan here, one family here in Morton that we love to live life with. The others are gone, but I think we're still close in a lot of ways from that.

 

Jolene Rocke: (41:45 - 45:27) Yeah, I think we're a close family because we have stuck together through not just the ups, but the downs, but we're fun loving. Jon and I like games. We like to do stuff, and we like to go places. We prioritized vacation when they were little so that we were all together in an intentional environment that was away from home. And so, we were together, they enjoyed going to Florida every year and it was always what we called just happenstances that were so adverse. It wasn't your ideal. And so, we did not have ideal things happen on any trip, actually, that we go on. So, what we decided to call them is adventures. So, we intentionally took adverse situations, whether that's a flat tire, going to Florida with all the kids and it's the middle of the night and we're all sitting at a gas station on the curb waiting for the next tire to get fixed. It's just, we just always called them adventures and I'm not sorry for that. That's something our kids are passing on to their kids when things happen. Our son in particular, Jordan, his family seems to have a lot of adventures, like Jon and I have had. And that's what they call them to their children. So, I'm not sorry for the word adventure. Jon taught me a saying that he used to say, you love your children, even if you don't like them or you will lose them. And that was really important in the teenage years. When one of our children was struggling in junior high, I knew even if I didn't like the way this one was acting, I needed to just keep loving them as scripture says, right? Not if they're perfect, but all the time. And so, we didn't lose her through that time, I think because there was so much intentional loving beyond the liking. The other thing that I would just mention with that to encourage any, any mom or dad, I picked up the book, The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman and had this daughter read it with me so that we can learn, how do we love each other? Well, through this time when it feels like we don't really like each other that well. So, well, wow. I had no idea. It was physical touch for you. And I, I thought it was the acts of service. And you would notice that I picked up your room because I knew you had a hard day in a test at school. Well, there was never any knowledge or awareness that I did that for her. But whenever I put my arms around her and gave her a giant hug and wouldn't let her go until she melted in my arms, I realized, yes, that's what she, that's how I can love her best.

 

Laura Dugger: (45:27 - 45:50) That is awesome to hear that story. It is helpful to have actionable things that we can replicate. And so, I am going to link in the show notes to a few of our episodes that may be beneficial. If people want to take that concept a step further, Dr. Gary Chapman has been a previous guest. I'll link to those. And then also Katie Mueller talked about traveling with your family and the lessons that the Lord teaches his children about traveling in the Bible and how that applies to us. That's great. So, if you're willing, will you share anything more about the honeymoon? I'm so curious now.

 

Jon Rocke: (45:27 - 46:35) We will. I feel like we're taking too much time here.

 

Jolene Rocke: (46:35 - 46:36) I don't know, but well, we knew that this was setting the tone for marriage as far as adventures.

 

Jon Rocke: (46:36 - 46:37) But well, the very first off we, we got on a plane. So, we got married on a Sunday and we were flying out down to Florida on Sunday night. We got to Atlanta where we were supposed to connect to another plane. We were supposed to go to Fort Myers, Florida and there had been a storm and, and they were rushing to get us on the right flights or to get us to the next flight. And they put us on the wrong plane. You know, this was back in the day where that could happen. Couldn't happen today, but put us on the wrong plane. We ended up in Melbourne, Florida at midnight last flight of the night. You know, we're newlyweds. We're supposed to be, you know, on our honeymoon. They put us up at a Holiday Inn Express with the crew and said, you know, we'll get you out a flight. You have to be up at 4 a.m. And so, you know, I was, our first night was not necessarily what you would, you know, call the most romantic night that we could have. And then do you want to tell the second story of our honeymoon?

 

Jolene Rocke: (46:36 - 46:37) The canoe trip.

 

Jon Rocke: (46:37 - 46:37) Yeah.

 

Jolene Rocke: (46:37 - 47:28) The canoe trip is, I have such bad allergies to many things. And so, Jon knew that because we tried to go horseback riding and I thought I'd be okay because it was outdoors, but the dander on the horse made me just blow up into a big ball on my face. And so, he realized how much I have a problem with allergies, but we decided to go canoeing in a very narrow mangrove swamp. That was really depleted in, in its depth that day. And so, we were canoeing along, but we, we got into the side of the mangrove trees and out came a Hornets, Hornets out of this giant nest and stung me all over my back.

 

Jon Rocke: (47:28 - 47:50) And so Jon went into, I'm like thinking that my six day, you know, marriage is over. My wife, who's so allergic, we're half hour out on our journey and I'm, she's like going to die on the spot. Cause I figured if she's so allergic to animals, then this many, you know, bee stings or wasp stings, she's, you know, she's dead.

 

Jolene Rocke: (47:52 - 48:12) So he jumps, jumps out. Yeah. First, the truth is he took my top off and started taking mud from the bottom of the creek and, just plasters me with mud on my back. And then he jumps out of the canoe and starts running the, the canoe. Cause it was pretty shallow.

 

Jon Rocke: (48:12 - 48:31) I decided it was going to be quicker to get her back in time. I figured I had about 30 minutes, you know, to, to try to get her to some medical attention. And so, yeah, so I'm running the canoe back instead of paddling it. Cause I knew I could get faster. Well, then I cut my foot on a shoal and we're a mess.

 

Jolene Rocke: (48:31 - 48:37) I mean, he had it. What? Like six-inch stitches. So, we ended up in the ER here.

 

Jon Rocke: (48:37 - 48:38) Yeah.

 

Jolene Rocke: (48:38 - 48:52) Both of us with me, with stings, Jon, with a cut. And, and that was just the start of the honeymoon that we called a giant adventure adventure since it wasn't great.

 

Jon Rocke: (48:52 - 48:55) It's been a 44-year adventure.

 

Laura Dugger: (48:55 - 49:15) You did start with quite the adventure. I love that. And I think the husbands’ listening will appreciate, of course you took their top off first.

 

Jon Rocke: (49:03 - 49:04) That's right.

 

Jolene Rocke: (49:05 - 49:07) It was a little embarrassing.

 

Jon Rocke: (49:08 - 49:10) It was a good thing. Nobody else.

 

Jolene Rocke: (49:10 - 49:15) Nobody else.

 

Laura Dugger: (49:15 - 49:25) Sorry. I had to tease on that part, but through various seasons, how did you prioritize one another above your kids, your career and your own families of origin?

 

Jon Rocke: (49:25 - 50:35) We just knew we had to have time. So, a couple of things. I mean, we had a fortunate built in mechanism too, to take trips together. So, within our family business, we had conferences and such that we had to attend. And so, we made that a priority that we were going to do those together. I wasn't going to just go by myself. And so, a couple of times a year, and now that we're working together, it can feel like life blurs between everything. So, while we're at home, we're still talking about work and we're still dealing with ministry. And the other thing is with our kids away, a lot of our trip time is spent with our kids. So, we have to make that, that's gotta be a priority, but we realized we still need just our time away. and when we got, we went down to Florida and we just said, okay, no work talk for these five days, you know, no work talk. And it was pretty fun because most of the time Jolene broke that rule. And I would say, wait a minute, no work talk.

 

Jolene Rocke: (50:36 - 50:36) It's true.

 

Jon Rocke: (50:37 - 51:09) It's very true. But those, so trips were a big thing for us, and they don't have to be a big deal trip, but a weekend away to break the routine. You know, the example of that was, that's why God created festivals and holidays were to break routine and to have a stop in our everyday lives. And so, he knew we needed that to reconnect with him. Well, we know we need that in our marriages is to break the routine.

 

Jolene Rocke: (51:10 - 52:17) Very intentionally. Jon was wise enough to know we needed that as even as young as he was. Can you imagine the volumes of love that that spoke to me, that he wanted me to go with him on the trips. So that meant so much to me. And it still does today because he always wants me to go with him. And then I, I just have over the years, like when the kids were at home, that was days of rest for me when he was in meetings. But as I started growing too, as a person and not needing as much rest, I also would go into all the meetings because I liked the learning. But even as we went through college, like I just was always a part of the learning. And, and I liked that, but Jon included me. That said a lot to me.

 

Laura Dugger: (52:18 - 52:25) And I love your companionship, how you prioritize that. What advice do you have for all of us married couples as we seek to grow as one rather than start to grow parallel or even worse, start to grow apart from one another?

 

Jon Rocke: (52:18 - 52:47) Yeah, I think find things to do together. That's part of how even the biking, the tandem thing came about. Cause if we went out on bikes on our individual bikes, then I'm like, I'm wanting to run ahead. Well, you know, and then, and she's like, you know, you're not getting very much exercise or whatever the case may be. But then on a tandem, we could accomplish everything together. And so, finding some of those things.

 

Jolene Rocke: (52:47 - 54:56) So there's seasons of time when you're raising your children, like that, Jon was biking by himself and with some other men in a fast pace for extreme exercise. And I was doing my thing. And so, I'm not saying that hobbies apart from one another are negative, but for us, they've been mostly together. And so that just means that even there was a period that yes, Jon would go out golfing, not in excess, but when our kids were around and little, I think I was communicating even in that, that you don't just go off golfing every Saturday and leave your wife with the kids on a Saturday because you now that's your day off work. No, it's, we never get a day off work. So, you need to kick in at home too. So, there was this balance, I think is a really good word for how do you, how do you do like even individual hobbies and exercise even, but then mostly we're always trying to figure out how we can do things together. So, taking a back seat, literally on a tandem bike and knowing that that was going to help our marriage to be together. I also said recently now in a decade ago, I will learn how to golf. And so that, that just meant, again, I have no, no interest that much in golfing. I thought I loved riding the car around and being outside, but now it's like, yes, I will learn to golf if that means that that's another hobby and a sport and an activity that we can do together. So, we started a Friday night golf time, just Jon and I, it's a date night of golf and Dairy Queen supper. We call it Dairy Queen supper because we just don't eat supper, but we eat Dairy Queen after we go. So there again, there's just like, what are, what can we do together? And we're still doing date nights because it's just, we actually are really good friends still.

 

Jon Rocke: (54:57 - 55:51) Well, I think like I say, every season has been different for us. There was a time where kids were intense and Joe was a phenomenal mom and, was totally engaged in that. And you're in your career phase too. And so, all those things are competing. Well, then we've come back in the last five years and now we work together. So that's a different whole different dynamic. And so that's why we needed, you know, yeah, we need a golf and Dairy Queen night because we just need to get away from the intensity of our work relationship, you know, and take that break on our tandems. We usually ride for breakfast. So, most things have to do with food. It's not about exercise. It's about how to eat. So that's kind of just part of what we do.

 

Laura Dugger: (55:51 - 56:19) I love it though. That's an interest for all people. It's something that we have to do multiple times a day. Well, what do you want to leave us with? Whether it's a challenge or scripture, it can be anything, but how would you like to wind down our time together today?

 

Jolene Rocke: (56:19 - 56:30) I'm going to just say to encourage everyone. Our marriage has taken compromise and it's taken communication and it pays off in the end.

 

Jon Rocke: (56:19 - 57:11) You know, Ephesians 5 is really an important understanding that it's submitting to each other. The idea of wives submit to your husband, you're not catching the whole picture of that. If that's what your focus is, because it's husband loves you, love your wives as Christ loved the church. And so, and it starts the whole section off with submit to one another. And so, we have to be just intentional and committed. One of my favorite sayings is from Augustine, who says, when he was in prayer one time says to God, “Command what you will, but give what you command.” And so, when I think about our marriage, that's what grace is all about. Yes, it takes intentionality and commitment, but that only comes by his grace.

 

Jolene Rocke: (57:11 - 57:55) And one other thing that I thought of is that we always taught our kids to remember whose they are. And that just means that if you do that within a marriage too, and you're remembering that you're the Lord's, you're made in his image, then you relate and you will love the other one better. Even as you know your identity in Christ first, you will love your mate better.

 

Laura Dugger: (57:55 - 58:05) Amen. And you too may know we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for both of you today, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Jon Rocke: (57:56 - 58:07) You know, I just say submission is a good thing. It's not associated that way, but in a marriage it's such a good thing.

 

Jolene Rocke: (58:08 - 59:13) So that's both submitting to each other, not just the wife being clamped down. But our savvy sauce would be that sacrifice and submission are good things. They're not bad words. So, in our experience, a savvy sauce for our 44-year-old marriage is that sacrifice and submission have been very good things on both of our parts.

 

Laura Dugger: (59:13 - 59:20) Well, you clearly live this out, and you've been great role models to Mark and to me and our family. You love one another with such an intensity, and you love your Lord that way, and you love your children that way in your community. And I just see the way that He's had this ripple out from being intentional in the most key important parts of life, and that He's really blessed you in that, but He's also blessed all of us around you. So, thank you for sharing your journey with us. Thank you so much for being my guest.

 

Jolene Rocke: (59:20 - 59:22) It's been so great to be here with you. Thanks for asking, Laura.

 

Jon Rocke: (59:13 - 59:27) Yeah, it's been a privilege for us just to take the time to reflect again and realize the challenges, but really just celebrate what God has done through His grace in us and our marriage. So, thanks.

 

Laura Dugger: (59:27 - 1:03:10) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Excel in Social Skills and Etiquette and Teach your Children to do the Same with Monica Irvine (Episode 281)

281. Excel in Social Skills and Etiquette and Teach Your Children To Do The Same with Monica Irvine

 

Proverbs 20:11 NIV “Even small children are known by their actions, so is their conduct really pure and upright?”

 

Ephesians 4:32a AMP “Be kind and helpful to one another,”

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Monica Irvine, President and creator of The Etiquette Factory, LLC, is a master motivator and dedicated instructor who loves to help children and adults see the benefits and rewards of having proper etiquette, mastering professionalism and excelling in social skills. As a Certified Etiquette Instructor and working in the hospitality industry for 24 years, Mrs. Irvine specializes in etiquette and professional instruction to help ensure the success of each individual both personally and professionally.

 

Mrs. Irvine is the published author of three books on Etiquette and one book on Scheduling including: Etiquette for Beginners, Etiquette Intermediate, Etiquette Masters and A Schedule Makes for a Happy Family, in addition to authoring several monthly columns in national publications such as Everything Knoxville, The Homeschool Handbook and the Homeschool Magazine.

 

Mrs. Irvine is a national speaker, speaking to thousands of parents, educators and children every year.

 

Residing in Knoxville, TN with her husband, Mrs. Irvine spends her free time playing tennis, running and enjoying her family of three boys and a granddaughter.

 

You may contact Mrs. Irvine at monica@TheEtiquetteFactory.com  or via her website at www.TheEtiquetteFactory.com.

Rise Up Parenting

FUNdamentals 4 Kids

Life Skills Essentials

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka

 

Questions and Topics We Cover:

1. What are some red flags we can identify in our lives if we are too busy and what wisdom do you recommend instead of our overstuffed schedules?
2. As parents, why must we proactively teach these qualities to our children, rather than just instruct them in a moment of correction?
3. Will you share stories of ways the Holy Spirit has nudged you to use etiquette and it resulted in something miraculous? 

 

Other Savvy Sauce Episode Mentioned:

Unexpected Grief and What Helped Me Through It Can Help You Too with Singer and Blogger, Brittany Price Brooker

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:10)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 2:19) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka. Owned and operated by the Burchie family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at LemanGM.com.

 

My guest for today is the charming Monica Irvine. She is president and creator of The Etiquette Factory. She's a master motivator and dedicated instructor who just loves helping children and adults to see the benefits and rewards of having proper etiquette. She also loves to help people master professionalism and excel in social skills.

 

So, she's going to give us insight into all of these ideas and share stories today for ways that we can actually seek the Lord and love others well and value people through the proper use of etiquette.

 

Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Monica.

 

Monica Irvine: (2:19 - 2:20) Thank you. Thanks for having me, Laura.

 

Laura Dugger: (2:20 - 5:41) Well, I'm so excited to get a chat with you today, but let's just begin here. I'm so fascinated because you were born and raised in the South. Is that right?

 

Monica Irvine: Well, yes, Tennessee. Absolutely consider myself Southern.

 

Laura Dugger: I love it. And I grew up in the Midwest and got to live in the South for a few years. And I was very struck by the difference in manners. And I'm just curious if manners and etiquette were intentionally taught to you, both in your family and then just kind of in your Southern culture around you.

 

Monica Irvine: (2:20 - 5:32) Well, yes. So, when I think about being raised in the South, I think and maybe my mom and my grandmas were a little different. But what I would describe my upbringing is very particular, meaning everything was made special.

 

And my parents and my grandparents took a lot of pride in making things beautiful and lovely. And so, of course, my mom cooked every night. But like at my home growing up and we did not have a lot of money, just know that my parents struggled.

 

But my mother would never put a ketchup bottle on the table or a mayonnaise jar. Everything had to be put in little bowls with little spoons. And it's funny because my friends that I have today, I get given little spoons for birthdays and occasions because my friends all know how much I love little dainty things.

 

But, you know, and some people, you know, might think that's a little ridiculous. But I'll tell you something. I don't know that we need to eat that way every night, seven nights a week.

 

But it made dinner time feel special. And even the way my mother and my grandmothers kept their house, everything had its place. It was not messy.

 

We had clean homes. And I think it also just helped me be proud of my home. I mean, once again, we did not have a lot of money, but my friends thought my home was so nice.

 

Well, the reason it was so nice is because my mother kept such care of it. And so, I was raised with a lot of cousins and live close to both of my grandparents. And so even the outside of their homes, both sets of grandparents, everything was beautiful.

 

And so there was a lot of pride in who we are, how we presented ourselves. But you're going to laugh at this. So, my mom, my dad tells me this story that right after my mom and dad got married, my dad came home from work one day and my mom was ironing.

 

You know, she'd spend a whole day ironing every week or half a day. And my mom was ironing my dad's underwear. And my mom's name is Janice.

 

And he was like, “Janice, honey, what are you doing?” And “I know just ironing, Bob.” And he's like, “Babe, you don't need to iron my underwear.”

 

But, you know, the thing is, that to my mother and my grandmothers being a good wife and being a good mother meant making sure everyone in the family looked nice, that their clothes were clean, that the home was clean, that there was good food on the table. And that was part of their identity, of this is what it means to be a good wife and mother. And I love that about my upbringing.

 

Laura Dugger: (5:33 - 5:41) And do you have any reasons why you think that's changed a little bit over the years?

 

Monica Irvine: (5:42 - 8:34) Yeah, I think we've gotten lazy. Well, no, I just I think there you know, there's balance, right? There's when I look back, I can't really remember my mom playing with me.

 

But now, listen, I don't feel like I missed out, but I do recognize it. But I guess even as a little girl, sure, I would have loved my mom to play with me. But that's just not in my mind what moms did.

 

Moms cleaned house and made everything and cooked your meal. And so, I do. I'm grateful that as a society, we have adjusted somewhat.

 

Sometimes I believe too much but have adjusted in going. What's the most important things? And because I'm a big believer in playing with our children and our grandchildren and creating memories.

 

But now my family, my parents and we worked a lot together. Like if we were if the yard needed raking, it wasn't kids go rake the yard. Mom, dad, kids were in the yard raking.

 

If a car needed to be washed, it wasn't go wash the car. We were all out there washing the car. So, I think that's why I don't feel like I missed out because my family did so many things together.

 

Whereas today we're so separated. No parents give their children and babies phones and iPads so they'll just be quiet so they can get their important work done. Like grocery shopping or cooking.

 

And I just think that instead of teaching our children how to self-soothe and self-entertain and how to creatively play even by yourself, sometimes we just always believe there has to be a babysitter to distract our children from wanting mom and dad. It's just I you know, this could be a whole other talk, Laura, but I just you know, I see it. It breaks my heart sometimes on the lack of how often families work together, play together and do things together.

 

But now, you know, dad's watching his game in this room. Mom is in another room, maybe on her computer doing social media. The kids are in their rooms on their games.

 

And I see a lack of family unity. So once again, even though maybe my mom and dad didn't play with us and I'm glad we've shifted with that thought process. Still, we were a united family.

 

Laura Dugger: (8:35 - 8:56) I love that. And the Lord has clearly given you a passion for that instilling that in others. And He invited you into a journey that eventually led to The Etiquette Factory, which is the work that you get to do today.

 

So, can you share the impetus for that and what that journey looked like for you?

 

Monica Irvine: (8:56 - 13:54) I will. I love my company. I feel like it's just yet another beautiful adventure the Lord has allowed me to be on in my life.

 

And so, I feel like I'm just outside looking in at this beautiful little business that has allowed me to minister to children and adults in need. So, years ago, I was homeschooling our kids. I was homeschooling our youngest son at the time, and we were studying the life of President George Washington.

 

And I just kind of stumbled upon this list. It was called George Washington's Rules of Civility and Decent Behavior. It is a beautiful list of 110 chivalry skills.

 

And apparently, President Washington was encouraged to focus on some chivalry as was part of a formal education in those days. He found a French book that had these list of chivalry kind of considerations, and he copied them. He hand copied them, of course.

 

And we have that list of 110 chivalry skills in President Washington's handwriting. But as I started reading over this list, the Lord penetrated my heart. I just I was like, these are so beautiful.

 

I mean, some of them were kind of funny. Some of them were. It's not polite to remove lice from your companion in public, which I think is good to know.

 

But most of the beautiful chivalry skills were very applicable to today. And I was like I want my son to memorize these skills. So, we started memorizing one Washington skill a week.

 

And because they were written in that old English, you know, sometimes we were like, what does this mean? And it just I just decided for my son's sake, who was nine at the time, I wanted to just kind of make my own version. But what was so a light bulb moment for me is as we started making manners part of our daily discussion in school, I noticed a change in my child's behavior and my son would be like, “Mom, let's do another one. What's the next one? Let's do one more.”

 

And I found that so fascinating because, as you know, most of us parents, when we teach manners, we're teaching it in the moment, usually correcting bad behavior. It's not that that's our goal. It's just that that's when we think about it.

 

Our child says, or does something that's not the most polite, and all of a sudden we're going, “Oh, honey, no, honey, you can't say that. That's not polite.” And then we make the correction and then we teach the skill.

 

And what I learned and realized is that so often that's when I was teaching my children manners in the moment of correcting. And what I've learned about that is when we're being corrected, whether you're three years old or 30 years old, we harden our heart typically because it's self-preservation. You know, we stiffen up when someone's like, “Monica, you really shouldn't have.” I'm like, whoa.

 

And it's just because of our own pride. We don't like being called out and neither do our children, even when we're doing it gently and politely. It's still a correction.

 

And so, what I found is when our heart is hardened, as the scripture says, it's not the best time to absorb information. It's the opposite of being humble. To be humble means to be teachable.

 

To be hardened means to not be teachable. So, when we have a hardened heart, it's hard for us to absorb things of the spirit, which all truth comes from God. So, anything that is lovely of good rapport is of God.

 

So, when we're teaching our children to be kind and to have kind considerations for others, those are God's truths and God's truths cannot seep into the soul of our heart unless our heart is soft. And so that is what happened is I was like, today we're going to learn how to use our napkin properly. Or today we're going to learn how to apologize.

 

But how do you make it sound sincere and how do you be sincere when you don't really feel it? And so, as we started just working on one skill at a time, the conversations were typically beautiful. Parts were changed and behavior ended up changing.

 

And so really, that's what then later became The Etiquette Factory.

 

Laura Dugger: (13:55 - 14:20) I love that because I think it gives our children confidence because then they're equipped and prepared and understand what's expected of them in different situations or what can bless others in the way they act. But then I'm curious, you gave a few examples of those. Can you think of any of George Washington's chivalry lines that would still apply today?

 

Monica Irvine: (14:21 - 19:07) Yes, well, so I'm not quoting, I'm summarizing. So, for instance, one is it is not polite to hum or sing in the presence of others that would cause distraction. And so basically it's not polite to draw attention to ourselves but also draw attention or interrupt other people's day life when we haven't been invited to do so.

 

So let me give you this definition we use for etiquette. So, at The Etiquette Factory, etiquette is helping those around us to feel valued and to feel comfortable. Well, if I'm sitting there humming along, but the person beside me really doesn't want to hear my humming, then I might be causing that person to feel uncomfortable.

 

Same thing, you know, whenever I start off teaching a class, because usually when everyone thinks of manners, they think of table manners. Of course, there's so much more. But I use this example.

 

I say, well, if I were to come to your home and sit down and I started eating like a pig in the presence of your family, I mean, I'm chewing with my mouth open. I'm making a smacking my lips. I'm taking too big of bites and food is falling in my lap or I'm making a mess on the table.

 

Or I eat so fast that I am finished eating, getting up to leave. And you're just on your third bite of food. Well, any of those behaviors, I would be sending a message.

 

And that message is, look, I'm here for one person and that person is myself. I came to fill up my belly because I'm hungry. And beyond that, I really don't care.

 

I don't care if I'm making you uncomfortable. I don't care if I'm grossing you out. I don't care if you actually wanted to talk to me because I just came here to eat and I'm out of here.

 

You see, we don't realize it, but a lack of chivalry is called selfishness. A lack of chivalry is inward focused. When we focus outwardly on what message am I sending to those around me?

 

Am I sending a message of love and care and value? That is etiquette. I get emailed all the time and message like, “OK, Monica, I've got this shower I'm putting on.

 

And my daughter is not going to invite her work friends to the wedding. But is it OK if we invite all of them to a wedding shower?” And they'll go, so what's the etiquette rule?

 

Well, there is no etiquette rule about that, except etiquette is about helping those around us to feel valued. And so that's how I answer every question. I'm like, well, let me ask you if you were invited to a wedding shower, where you're asking her friends to shower your daughter with gifts and love to celebrate her wedding.

 

But yet those friends were not valued enough to invite to the wedding. How do you think it would make them feel? And so that's what the answer is with etiquette.

 

Now, there's exceptions. In fact, that case, that's a real email I got. And she ended up having the shower because her daughter went and told her co-worker who offered to give her a wedding shower.

 

“You know what? I thought that is so thoughtful. I'm so grateful that you were willing to do that. But we're having a very small, intimate wedding, you know, for financial reasons and intimacy reasons. And so, I just don't feel comfortable inviting people to bring gifts for me and knowing that we're just we're not going to be able to invite everyone to the wedding.”

 

And that co-worker said, “We don't care. We knew you were having a small wedding. We want to celebrate you.”

 

And so, you know, you can there be exceptions, but a lady and a gentleman always try to be very aware of those unspoken messages. And that guides our conversation, our answers, our actions. And that's what we teach children and adults to do at The Etiquette Factory.

 

Laura Dugger: (19:07 - 21:17) And now a brief message from our sponsor.

 

Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka has been owned and operated by the Burchie family for over 25 years. A lot has changed in the car business since Sam and Stephen's grandfather, Sam Leman, opened his first Chevrolet dealership over 55 years ago.

 

If you visit their dealership today, though, you'll find that not everything has changed. They still operate their dealership like their grandfather did with honesty and integrity. Sam and Stephen understand that you have many different choices in where you buy or service your vehicle.

 

This is why they do everything they can to make the car buying process as easy and hassle free as possible. They are thankful for the many lasting friendships that began with a simple, welcome to Sam Leman's. Their customers keep coming back because they experience something different.

 

I've known Sam and Stephen and their wives my entire life, and I can vouch for their character and integrity, which makes it easy to highly recommend you check them out today. Your car buying process doesn't have to be something you dread, so come see for yourself at Sam Leman Chevrolet in Eureka. Sam and Stephen would love to see you, and they appreciate your business.

 

Learn more at their website, LemanEureka.com, or visit them on Facebook  by searching for Sam Leman Eureka. You can also call them at 309-467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship.

 

I loved, this was a few months back, but we came to a homeschool convention, and I loved your talk on purposeful parenting. One thing that you said, just I think backing it up and looking at our family in general, you said, “If we're too busy to do the most important things, we're too busy. Stop allowing the adversary to tempt us to remain too busy.”

 

So, Monica, what wisdom can you share for maybe red flags that can help us identify when we're too busy to focus on the most important things, and what do you recommend instead of overstuffing our schedules and our lives?

 

Monica Irvine: (21:18 - 26:23) You know, that's a great question. Those are good questions that every family should ask themselves. You know, I think that if we are to strive to focus on the most important things, step number one is, has mom and dad identified the most important things?

 

Because if you don't know what your goal is, then you're not going to as easily recognize when something is interfering with your goal. So, for instance, maybe mom and dad sits down and says, “Well, our number one goal is to make sure that our children know Jesus Christ. And so, what do we need to do to make sure that we're doing our best to help our children know who He is?”

 

Well, and so a family might decide, well, we want to have daily scripture study and daily family and individual prayer. We want to make it a priority to be at church so that we can worship on the Sabbath, but also so that we can meet together with other like-minded Christians and minister to one another as we're taught by the Savior. That's important for us to do.

 

And perhaps we want to learn to do as the Savior does. And that's why we're going to learn of His attributes and try to follow in His footsteps and be a family of service. So, let's just say those are our four of the most important things.

 

If that's our goal, then hopefully mom and dad could recognize when we're starting to stumble off the path that leads to our goal. For instance, I can't tell you how many parents have come up to me after they hear me speak on this topic and say, “Monica, I wish I had heard you say this 10 years ago. But we got sucked up into the what the world has to offer, and we started allowing our children to play competitive sports on Sunday. And so, we stopped going to church years ago because there was always a championship game on Sunday morning and always another tournament. And we wanted our children to have, you know, college opportunities.”

 

And there's nothing wrong with college opportunities unless that college opportunity interferes with our most important goal. And so that's why first mom and dad have to decide what is the most important, because then it's easier to recognize when we are being tempted by the adversary to focus on what the world is trying to offer us.

 

And the world offers us shiny things that tempt our human nature to want to be popular and loved by all and wealthy. And so, we just have to always go back to our goals. You know, I've got families that say, “I wish we had eaten dinner together more often. But we allowed our children to be so scheduled that there was not one night or there was only one night a week that we actually sat down at the table together.”

 

You know, parents. You will regret that. And you can't take back these precious, very short years that you have your children under your roof in your home.

 

And you will be someone like me one day where all of my kids are graduating and grandchildren and all you live for is your children to come visit and your children to come have dinner. And so, when you allow the world to creep in and be more important than spending time with your family, time with the Lord, time on good and lovely things, you will regret it. And I just think that probably every year come January, mom and dad should sit down and go, let's look at last year.

 

What were we missing from our family schedule? What do we need to reevaluate whether that is the most important thing? And so that's something I think all of us have to do on a regular basis.

 

Laura Dugger: (26:24 - 27:20) I think you're hitting on something profound there, that reflection with the Lord or with our spouse. I think we have no excuse because if there is no spouse in the picture, we always have the Lord. But to be intentional, to take that time, maybe on a Sabbath and go through a few questions and reflect back.

 

I think that could save us from a lot of regret. So, I really appreciate that response. And going back to etiquette, then you've taught us that it is a learned behavior.

 

This isn't something that our children will just naturally pick up. It's best to do in times where their hearts are soft, so proactive if possible. But I'd love to know in your own life, when were times that the Holy Spirit nudged you to use etiquette and it resulted in something miraculous?

 

Monica Irvine: (27:21 - 32:56) Oh, goodness. Okay, well, to me, I think miraculous is seeing the Lord's divine hand in our life. I see the miracle of the Lord every day in my life.

 

But probably most often is when I kneel down at the end of a day, I repent daily because I need to daily. And it's always a little nervous because I pray and I ask the Lord, as sometimes I know what I need to repent of. I know that I recognized I stumbled that day on something, but sometimes I just I pray and I say, “Lord, you know, just help.”

 

If something needs to be brought to my mind that I need to repent of and that I need to do better, would you bring it to my mind at this time? And it wasn't that long ago that the Lord brought to my mind something that I had gotten in the habit of doing that I didn't feel like it was wrong, but it was wrong. And so, etiquette, one of the etiquette skills I teach everyone is that it's not polite for us to gossip.

 

A lady and a gentleman always draw attention to the lovely and wonderful things that other people do. Now, if there's a safety issue, that's different, but I'm just talking about we don't share negative things about other people. And so, it's something I teach every year, all year long.

 

But I feel like I've done so much better than I did twenty-five years ago when the Lord really chastised me one time for gossiping. But in the last couple of months, I had gotten in the habit of sharing with my husband. So sometimes, you know, when you share with your spouse that you kind of feel like that's a safe place that the same rules don't apply because you and your spouse kind of talk about everything.

 

And so, I was in the habit of sharing with my spouse something that I was worried about that another person in our family did. But I was constantly going, “Oh, I don't like that. They do this and I don't like that. They do this and I'm worried about it.” And I actually was worried about it. But I just was constantly kind of highlighting these things that I didn't like that someone in our family did.

 

Well, one night I was praying and asked the Lord to bring to my mind and the Lord brought that to my mind. And it was kind of like he said, “Monica, don't you remember that? If you're worried about someone. Instead of sharing those negative things, even with Charles, my husband, what would be more effective is if you prayed and asked me to bless that person, to help that person, you know, in the ways that they need help and ask me to help, you know, of ways that you could be a better example to that person. But you don't need to constantly draw attention because it's starting to make you be negative towards this person.”

 

And I just like right when the Lord said that to me, I was embarrassed. I was like, “Monica, that. Yeah. Like, how do you not know that? That you should know better than that.”

 

Well, so immediately I repented and I apologized to the Lord and I and I started doing what he asked me to do. And within just a couple of days, like I started just noticing all of the wonderful, lovely things that this person is and does. And so, just to me, that is miraculous and it happens all the time.

 

And if I'm humble enough to repent and to listen to the Lord, because the Lord wants to help us and he wants us to strive to be like him. But we've got to ask where we need to be corrected. And so, I teach etiquette, I teach we don't gossip.

 

And then lo and behold, I had kind of gotten myself in another trap again. You know, and I just I think it's a miracle what happens when we listen to the Lord. He immediately turns our mind to good, lovely, beautiful things and allows us to be a vessel of light instead of vessel of darkness.

 

And we can be that vessel of darkness just right inside our own marriage, even though we think that's kind of a safe place to maybe be a little looser with our tongue. So, there's one example.

 

Laura Dugger: (32:57 - 33:26) I love that. And I remember you also explaining whenever you get a thought in your head that you don't want to do, it's likely 100 percent from God. So, can you share a couple specific stories of times that that was the Holy Spirit telling you something that you didn't maybe want to do, but you obeyed?

 

I'm remembering something about a grocery store and another time separately about a phone call. Yeah.

 

Monica Irvine: (33:26 - 40:29) OK, well, I'll tell about the phone call just because it's less sad. So, yeah, one time there was this lady and she was just kind of investigating our church and starting to come to our church and kind of fill it out. So, I had just met her and I found out that her what led her to come looking for God is her husband was an addict and she was just at her wits end and their marriage and family was falling apart.

 

And so, she came looking for the for help for the Lord. And so, I learned a little bit about her story. I ended up taking her to one of those celebrate recovery places at another church because I knew they had a wonderful program.

 

And so, I had interacted with her a couple of times. I probably had only known her about a month when one night I was running late to take my kids to youth on Wednesday night and I was cooking some spaghetti and I was just, you know, cooking that spaghetti at the stove. And all of a sudden I had a thought come into my mind, “Call her.”

 

And, you know, I was like, oh, yeah, I do need to call her. I need to call and check on her. I will, you know, after church tonight.

 

And so, I, you know, kept cooking that spaghetti. And the second time the Spirit, because that's who it was talking to me, because that's who tells us to do good things. Not us, but God.

 

The Spirit said, “Monica, call her.” But I was running late and I was trying to get my kids fed and I was like, I will call her as soon as I get the kids fed, you know, drop them off at church and then I'll call her, you know, and so I really meant to call her. But I.

 

Finally, a third time, and it seems to always take me three times before I realize, OK, he means now. And so, a third time it was like “Monica call.” And so, it was so strong.

 

And I, I know it's the Lord, but I, I just turned the stove off. I went into my bedroom, got my phone out, dialed her number. And as it was ringing, she picked up the phone and all I heard was just some quiet sobbing.

 

And she couldn't speak. And I, you know, I said her name. I said, “Hey, so and so it's Monica. I just. I see that you're upset. I just wanted to call and check on you. In fact, the Lord insisted that I call and check on you.”

 

And then her, you know, her crying just continued. It wasn't until, you know, she had calmed down and she just said, you know, “Monica, I had been praying and just asking the Lord to just show me that, you know, show me that you care that this is happening to me.” Something like that.

 

And, you know, I, I, in that moment, my stomach kind of did that little knot because I knew how close I had come to just not calling. And sure, I could have called her an hour later. It would have been at least an hour later and maybe, you know, it would have mattered.

 

But the Lord knew that it mattered right in that moment. She needed an answer. She needed to know that the Lord was listening.

 

And I've learned that in my life, that whenever we get a thought that comes into our mind and that thought is to do something good, like calling someone, you all is a good thing. Visiting someone, writing a letter to someone. Those are good things.

 

And all good comes from the Lord. And sometimes I wonder, does the Lord trust me? Does he know I'll respond when the stakes are high?

 

You know, sometimes I think as we continue to learn how to hear the spirit, we have to practice. Oh, that was the spirit. And probably if you're like me, I've learned a lot about the spirit by not listening.

 

And then later going, “Oh, yeah, Lord, I did miss that. You tried. You tried to warn me, or you tried to get me to do that. And I dismissed it.”

 

But so, you all I just think it takes practice and I'm still practicing. But I do believe that especially when it's something that we don't really want to do or we think we don't have time. And I just realize I felt the Lord going, “Monica, do you not think I know you're cooking spaghetti? Do you not think I know you're running late? But right now, there's something more important I need you to do than to get your kids to church on time.”

 

And so, I think at some point we have to decide, do we trust Him or don't we? And if we trust Him, we have to trust Him completely. And that means when we receive a prompting that we will act quickly because the Lord knows what we're doing.

 

And He knows that we don't have the best relationship with that person. Yet you're feeling like you should call. He already knows that.

 

And it doesn't mean that everything's always going to turn out the way we think it will. Sometimes I think the Lord just wants us to know ourselves that we'll do what He asked us to do, regardless of how it will turn out. And sometimes I feel like the Lord has told me to do something and I did it and it didn't go well.

 

And I'm like, “Lord, like, why? Why?” And I know all of us, you all sit there and go, wait, was that my thought or was it God's thought?

 

And you know what I have learned is that just stop worrying about it. Just act in faith. And the Lord always backs up His people.

 

The Lord doesn't, as you and I are praying and striving to understand the Lord's will. And let's say we get an idea and so we act on it because we feel like it was a prompting and then it does not go well. I believe the Lord loves so much that you were trying to listen and be obedient and the blessings will come.

 

Sometimes we just don't know the timing or how, but we've just got to trust.

 

Laura Dugger: (40:29 - 43:59) I love that. And we never know what's happening on the other side of our obedience. And I'll link back to Brittany Price Brooker's episode because she was one who had lost her husband and was crying out to the Lord.

 

I think she was bathing her young children, and they didn't have food in the house and maybe they were sick. And the only thing that sounded good to their child was apples, but it was late at night. She couldn't go get them herself.

 

And she was just praying like, “Lord, do You see me? Do You know my needs? I need You to meet my needs.”

 

And right then the doorbell rings and somebody showed up and she said, “The Lord told me to buy you these apples and bring them to you.” And I think that highlights something else. You articulated it well when you say whenever you get that thought in your head that you something that you don't want to do, it's likely 100% from God.

 

I would say a lot of times too, it's also awkward or inconvenient. We don't know why. And then I think back to the Bible, Abraham was put in a very awkward situation with his son and Noah, that was very awkward to be building the boat when there wasn't rain.

 

But look at the blessing that comes on the other side of obedience. So, appreciate those stories are really helpful.

 

By now, I hope you've checked out our updated website, thesavvysauce.com, so that you can have access to all the additional freebies we are offering, including all of our previous articles and all of our previous episodes, which now include transcriptions. You will be equipped to have your own practical chats for intentional living when you read all the recommended questions in the articles or gain insight from expert guests and past episodes as you read through the transcriptions. Because many people have shared with us that they want to take notes on previous episodes, or maybe their spouse prefers to read our conversations rather than listen to them or watch them now that we're offering video rather than just audio. So, we heard all of that and we now have provided transcripts for all our episodes.

 

Just visit thesavvysauce.com. All of this is conveniently located under the tab show notes on our website. Happy reading.

 

So, at that same conference, when I heard you speak, you shared something that really stuck with me. This one was about our daughters. So, I want to talk about daughters first and then we'll move to sons.

 

But you mentioned there was this one study where over 3,000 men were surveyed. And they were asked, what's the number one quality that you desire in your wife? Either current wife or someday in the future when you're married.

 

And do you remember the response? Yeah, it was kindness. Kindness.

 

That she is kind. And so, I wondered, was there another side for the boys then too? What do you think women would say for their future or their current spouse?

 

What attribute do you think they would identify?

 

Monica Irvine: (44:00 - 47:35) It didn't have that for the other side, but a word that we don't use as much anymore. And I try to use it a lot is, I think most women, even if it wouldn't come to their mind immediately, once they heard it, they'd be like, oh, wait, no, yeah, that. And that is honorable.

 

They would want their husbands to be honorable. And to be honorable means that we do honorable things. And honorable things always 100 percent of the time require some level of sacrifice.

 

That's what makes them honorable when we sacrifice and give up our time, ourself in order to better someone else to help our country, our family, others. And so, I think today what we all want is for our spouses, husbands and wives to be kind and to live honorable lives. Those lives, it doesn't mean a perfect life, but to be honorable means we strive to have integrity.

 

We strive to be godly. We strive to do what we say we're going to do. We strive to live up to our divine nature as God called mothers and fathers and husbands.

 

And so, I would think to me that is the most important, because if you live an honorable life, then you honor God. You honor your marriage covenant. You honor your children by treating them and speaking to them with honor.

 

You honor your job. You make sure that you have integrity at work and that you're dependable. And the same goes for us women.

 

You know, but I think I think we all struggle with selfishness. I mean, that is ultimately what we struggle with every day is what do I want? What do I need?

 

What's important to me versus trying to live a selfless life for our spouse, for our family? Anyway, it would be interesting to do that survey, but I think what's so kind of funny about the kindness is that whenever I read that survey results that I had read years ago, when I say that to a crowd of women. And men, but when I say that to the crowd, you can always see I just see this rippling of women making this kind of gesture.

 

Or because they know that they could be more kind, because usually we can be kind to everyone in the world. But in the walls of our home, we struggle more with just kindness.

 

Laura Dugger: (47:37 - 48:00) And so if we go further upstream than before we're married, if that's what God has for us, what are practical ways that we can teach and instill kindness in our children and honorable character? Or any other practical tips for conduct?

 

Monica Irvine: (48:00 - 53:03) Yeah, well, I love when I do a workshop at a convention on a family of service, because honestly, when we have our children in our home, it's practice ground. We have once again a few years to help them learn to love the Lord and to love others. You know, the two great commandments, love me and love others.

 

Well, to me, the best way to teach our children to love God and love others is to get our children out and serving others. Because, as you know, typically, like, for instance, when someone calls us and says, “Oh, hey, Monica, hey, would you mind, you know, the Smith family, they just had their new baby. Do you think you could cook dinner for them one night next week?”

 

If you're like me, I'm going to say yes. And then I'm going to hang up. And then I'm going to have that anxiety because already my week is so full and I was already stressed out about how I was going to get all the things done I needed to get done.

 

And now I've just added another thing. And I'm not saying there are not times that we don't need to say no, because we absolutely have to say no sometimes. But my point is, I cook the dinner and I go drop it off.

 

And as I'm pulling, as we are pulling away from that home, how do we feel? Do we feel better or do we feel worse? Do we feel happy or do we feel sad?

 

Honestly, almost 100 percent of the time, y'all, we're going to feel happier. We're going to feel grateful. We're going to be grateful that we had the opportunity to cook that dinner for that sweet family.

 

We're going to be reminded of how sweet the Lord is to give us opportunities to be His hands and His feet and His mouth here on the earth. And so, we want our children to learn to love. To love others, but it takes practice.

 

It's not until you serve again and again and again that you start to realize that the secret to being happy, the secret to having peace in your life and love abounding in your home is when we lose ourselves in the service of others. It's the secret to fixing siblings arguing with each other. It's the secret to helping husbands and wives draw closer together and have more love for one another.

 

It's the secret to less contention overall, to more peace, to more joy and happiness is to lose ourselves in the service of others. And so, to me, if you want to raise if we want to raise honorable, kind, generous, compassionate, empathetic human beings, they've got to lose themselves. To find themselves and define God.

 

And so, yeah, I think that's the secret. And of course, Jesus Christ tried to teach us that over and over and over again. He tried to teach His disciples over and over again that if you love me.

 

Then love my sheep, feed my sheep, teach my sheep. And what's interesting is that you all. The more we do that, the more we serve and love others.

 

Do you know what I believe? I believe it's kind of like the Grinch. Remember when the Grinch's heart grew?

 

That's real. That's really what happens. The God expands our ability to love others.

 

And in doing that, it actually expands our deep love of God. I think it's so fascinating that that's the fruit of service is a deeper and abiding love of Jesus Christ. It seems like it would be the opposite, right?

 

Well, I've got to love Jesus more in order to have a greater desire to serve. But it's the opposite. He wants you to go serve when you don't really feel like it.

 

And he wants you to go serve when it's not convenient. And your kids are crying and no one wants to go rake her yard. And then the fruit of acting in faith and trusting God is the love.

 

Laura Dugger: (53:05 - 53:34) That's what I would do. That's so good. Such a good medicine or anecdote to selfishness and issues we're having in the home with our children and for ourselves.

 

Well, Monica, you have shared so much goodness with us throughout this conversation. Can you explain how you can help partner with us as parents to help us teach our children etiquette at neutral times? Like you said, when their hearts are softer?

 

Monica Irvine: (53:35 - 56:52) Yes. Yeah. So, we've got some awesome resources, parents.

 

And number one is we do have a parenting course called Rise Up Parenting. And it's just this beautiful 52-week course that you get lifetime access to in case it takes you three years to get through your 52 weeks. But it is a course for mom and dad, or mom, or dad by themselves.

 

But it's just a beautiful way to help parents focus on one parenting skill a week. I've learned that when we have purposeful parenting, when we focus on one improvement at a time because we can get so overwhelmed, like we want we want to teach our kids to be selfless and that be ambitious and to serve and share. And I mean, it's just, it's endless.

 

But the Lord is a house of order. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a house of order. And so as long as we're going in the right direction, y'all, we are successful.

 

And so, this parenting course teaches a biblical principle and then a parenting principle that are related and allows you to just make little increment steps of improvement. Because when mom and dad improve, it blesses your children. So that's the first resource.

 

And then the other two most popular resources is we just have two programs. We have a program called FUNdamentals4Kids that targets children preschool through about third grade. And it's so fun.

 

It's just these wonderful, fun board games, flashcards, songs, stories, crafts, where we try to encourage you to twice a week set aside 15 minutes of your school day for an official manners activity and watch what happens. So, we've organized it for you. And for the little kids, we found out that if they can play with it, sing about it, make some food with it, that it helps them to go, “Mom, let's do a manners lesson.”

 

And then they don't even know that they're being taught these beautiful, wonderful skills. So that is so wonderful. And then for kids about fourth grade through 12th grade, we have a course called Life Skills for You.

 

And it's just so fun and it's so effective. Basically, it's 142 little three-minute lessons. We once again just try to get you to commit to twice a week sitting down with your family, watching a three-minute lesson where I'm teaching the etiquette skill.

 

Plus, we show teenagers doing the skill the wrong way and the right way. So, it's kind of funny, but it just creates some really great conversation with the family. And so those are our top three selling product lines.

 

And you can find all of that on our website, theetiquettefactory.com.

 

Laura Dugger: (56:53 - 57:15) Thank you for sharing. We will certainly link to all of that in the show notes for today's episode. And Monica, you may be familiar that we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge.

 

And so, this is my final question for you today. What is your savvy sauce? Yeah.

 

Oh, that's a hard one.

 

Monica Irvine: (57:15 - 59:06) I thought about this and I'm like, it's so hard. You all. Honestly, my savvy sauce is Jesus Christ.

 

It just is. I know sometimes we want the answer to be something else, but in all practical terms, it's Jesus. Meaning I start my morning out every day with Jesus.

 

I end every night with Jesus. I pray throughout the day and ask Him to help me make a decision. And I thank Him for all the beautiful things that happened to me throughout the day.

 

And I just He is this person, this real person that is at my side every day, all day, I hope. And that's how I do anything. That's why I am the mother that I am.

 

Not that I'm the best mother, but because of Him, I can mother and because of Him, I can be a good wife. And because of Him, I can be a good friend and I can minister to others through The Etiquette Factory. It's just it is Him.

 

And, you know, sometimes people will ask me, “Monica, I I want to have the knowledge you have or I want to be able to whatever parent the way it sounds like you parent.” And I'm like, you guys know, it's just it's called Jesus Christ. And Jesus will tell us all things that we should do.

 

And so my sauce is having a relationship with Jesus Christ. It truly is well said.

 

Laura Dugger: (59:06 - 59:24) And, Monica, you are such a gifted communicator and your heart of compassion is evident in your outward behavior. It's been such a joy to get to spend an hour with you today. So, I just want to say thank you for being my guest.

 

Monica Irvine: (59:24 - 59:43) Oh, thank you, Laura. And it's been such a joy. You're so kind.

 

And I appreciate the beautiful ministry that you're doing here on The Savvy Sauce. What a blessing for families to be able to just hear these resources that you've created. So, thank you.

 

Laura Dugger: (59:44 - 1:03:26) Thank you for being a part of it.

 

One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Implementing the ONE Lifestyle Change that Improves All Aspects of Health with Sue Becker (Episode 280)

280. Implementing the ONE Lifestyle Change that Improves All Aspects of Health with Sue Becker

 

Isaiah 61:1 AMP “The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me,

Because the Lord has anointed and commissioned me

To bring good news to the humble and afflicted;

He has sent me to bind up [the wounds of] the brokenhearted,

To proclaim release [from confinement and condemnation] to the [physical and spiritual] captives

And freedom to prisoners,”

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Sue Becker is a gifted speaker and teacher, with a passion to share principles of healthy living in an encouraging way.  She is the co-owner of The Bread Beckers and founder of the ministry, Real Bread Outreach, all dedicated to promoting whole grain nutrition. Sue has a degree in Food Science from UGA and is the author of The Essential Home Ground Flour Book. Sue is a veteran home-schooling mom with 9 children and 13 grandchildren. She and her husband Brad, live in Canton, GA. Through her teaching, countless families have found improved health.

 

Sue’s Instagram: @suebreadbeckers

Sue’s Website

Sue’s Podcast

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sue Neihouser Team

 

Questions and Topics We Cover:

1. You've supplied us with the knowledge, so now let's move on to the wisdom, which is learning how to apply what we now know. What equipment and grain do we need to get started so that this is possible to incorporate into our lifestyle?
2. Once we mill the grain, how long do we have to use it before it loses its nutritional benefits?
3. How long does it typically take to experience benefits from this lifestyle change and what health benefits can we expect to experience?

 

Related Episodes from The Savvy Sauce:

14 Simple Changes for Healthier Living with Leslie Sexton and Vasu Thorpe

26 Practical Tips to Eating Dinner Together as a Family with Blogger and Cookbook Co-Author, Rachel Tiemeyer

33 Pursuing Health with Functional Medicine Specialist, Dr. Jill Carnahan

129 Healthy Living with Dr. Tonya Khouri

205 Power of Movement with Alisa Keeton (Revelation Wellness)

212 School Series: Benefits of Homeschooling with Jodi Mockabee

256 Gut Health, Allergies, Inflammation and Proactive Solutions with Emily Macleod-Wolfe

261 Edible Theology with Kendall Vanderslice

270 Female Sex Hormones, Periods, and Perimenopause with Emily Macleod-Wolfe

275 Raising Healthy Kids: Free Tips with Emily Johnson

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:11)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:45) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

Thank you to the Sue Neihouser Team for sponsoring this episode.

 

If you're looking to buy or sell a home this season, make sure you reach out to Sue at 309-229-8831. Sue would love to walk alongside you as you unlock new doors.

 

I'm thrilled to get to be back with Sue Becker as my guest today. Make sure you go back and listen to part one, which we recorded last week. She was incredible explaining the one nutritional difference that will change everything. And now today, we're going to learn all of the practicals of how to actually implement this into our lifestyle.

 

Here's our chat. Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Sue.

 

Sue Becker: (1:45 - 1:46) Thank you. It's so good to be with you again. I can't wait to share even more.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:46 - 1:52) Well, last time you shared just incredible testimonies of the powerful difference that one nutritional change can make. And you root everything even back in the Bible, and God has really led you on this journey. So biblical passages about bread or grain or wheat appear hundreds of times throughout the Bible. But do you have any specific ones that come to mind that God has highlighted in your own life?

 

Sue Becker: (1:53 - 11:48) Yes, for sure. Shortly after, you know, I think I mentioned there's a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof is death. And we don't necessarily relate that to bread, but it certainly does describe what happened, you know, when the steel rolling mills displaced the local miller.

 

And then one, another one is Proverbs 23, verses 1 through 3, I think somewhere thereabouts. You know, white bread has always been around. The wealthy, the royalty, they wanted fluffier bread and they found a way.

 

And they knew that they could make these sieves, if you would, out of reeds, and they would sift the bran and germ out to produce fluffier bread. But only the wealthy could afford that. Two reasons.

 

Only the wealthy could afford servants or slaves or bakers, you know, to bake their bread for them. That was the royalty. But then also the poor people, when they sift the bran and germ away, they lose about 25% of the flour.

 

So, for 100 bag of grain or, you know, 100 pounds of grain, you are going to end up with 75 pounds of flour, 25 pounds of bran and germ. They couldn't give that up. You know, they couldn't just throw away, discard that food source.

 

So, they ate what was called dirty bread or peasant bread or whatever that we now pay extra money to get back to. But, you know, when I started milling and I read Proverbs 23 in a different light, because what happened with the steel rolling mills, when the white flour came on the scene for the first time in the history of the world, which you won't read about this in a history book, white bread, white flour became food for rich and poor alike. And that's why we began to see sickness and disease.

 

The wealthy had it. And, you know, the royalty had it. But Proverbs 23 says, “Be careful when you sit down to the king's table. Do not crave his dainties and his delicacies.” And I always thought that might be things like, you know, squid or, you know, eyeballs or foods that caviar, you know, things that we couldn't afford. But dainties and delicacies to me now describes white flour, fluffy things, bread and pastries and cakes.

 

So, God says don't crave his dainties and delicacies. They are deceitful food. And it even says put a knife to your throat lest you be given the gluttony.

 

We talked last time about bread. People thinking, you know, gaining weight. Well, you know, the white flour dainties and delicacies.

 

Yes, they lead to gluttony. So that was one that really came to mind. And then, of course, Isaiah 55 verse two.

“Why do you spend your money for that which is not bread and your earnings for what does not satisfy?” And so, I always thought, oh, Lord, I didn't know it wasn't bread. You know, I didn't know that's what I was spending my money on.

 

But just a few weeks ago, I was thinking about that verse again in a little different light. Like He was saying, why are you spending your money for that which is not bread? We're spending all this money moving away from bread on food, the keto, the fat, the all these the meat.

 

You know, we're spending our money on all these things that aren't bread. They don't satisfy like bread does. So that was a little different light.

 

Yes, on the one hand, what I thought I was spending my money on. I didn't know it wasn't bread. But then now all these anti-bread, anti-grain diets.

 

Why are you God saying, why are you spending your money on all of that on and your earnings for what does not satisfy? So that was a little different light on that picture. And of course, then Haggai chapter one, verse five says, “You sow much, but you reap little you eat, but no one is full. You drink, but you never have enough. And he who earns wages, earns it to put it in a bag with holes in it.” And you may be going, how does that relate to bread?

 

We spend all this money on food, and I air quotes “food stuff” that is taking our health away, making us sick. To me, that's a bag with holes in it. Because then what do we spend the rest of our money on health care, medicine, whatever.

 

So those were some, some pretty profound scriptures that God showed me. And 1 Timothy 4:1-3. It says that the Holy Spirit declares that on the last day, some will turn away from the faith and pay attention to deceitful spirits.

 

And listen to these doctrines of demons. This is the scripture saying this misled by the hypocrisy of liars who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which God has created to be gratefully shared by those who believe and have a clear knowledge of the truth. That's pretty powerful.

 

That's pretty powerful because you can grill yourself a steak. You can eat an apple all by yourself. You can eat fruits and vegetables all by yourself.

 

You're not going to make one roll. You're not going to make one piece of bread. Bread was made to be shared.

And even the word companion means with bread. Did you ever think about that? So, um, that's, that's pretty powerful that in the end times and, you know, wherever you are with that, but we have to believe that there are teachings that are teaching us to for, you know, to not eat foods that God created to be shared and bread is at the top of that list.

 

So those are some powerful bread scriptures that that have just ministered to me. There's, there's just so many, you know, and Jesus John 6:35, I typically sign my book that way. Jesus says, “I am the real bread of life. And he who comes to me shall be satisfied” in Isaiah 61. That's a verse the Lord gave me so many years ago. And, you know, most people know it, the spirit of the Lord God is upon me because he's anointed me to preach the gospel, you know, and I'll never forget.

 

I had the great privilege of sharing the gospel one time, which is not something I normally do. And at a women's homeless shelter in Atlanta, and I saw in seven or eight people after I shared gave their life to the Lord. And I was like, oh, this is what I want to do.

 

I don't want to talk constipation and poop anymore. And surely it's not important. And I really got kind of down about it.

 

I was like, yes, I want to go share the gospel. This can't be important. And a couple of days later, after that wonderful, glorious experience, I mean, I literally wanted to go hand tracks out on the street corner.

 

I just wanted to be one of those people. And I was supposed to be going to speak at a women's Bible study, giving my what my children lovingly call mom's poop talk. And I got up and I was like; I didn't want to do it.

 

And I just cried out to the Lord. I was like, I don't want to talk poop anymore. There's so much more in me besides this.

 

And surely this can't be important. And again, cried out to the Lord. Again, just turned to my regular Bible reading.

 

And my verse of the day on my calendar was Isaiah 61, one through three or four, whatever it is. The spirit of the Lord God is upon you. He's anointed and qualified me to preach the gospel.

 

And I was like, yes. And it says to bind up and heal the broken heart. And I was like, yes, that was those ladies.

 

I know this is what you want me to do. And then it said, proclaim Liberty to the captives. And in my Amplified version in parentheses, it said spiritual and physical.

 

And what God spoke so to my heart, he goes, the message that I'm sending you to speak today is to set my people physical captives free. He said, my people aren't spiritually captive. Their physical captives held in captivity by every kind of sickness, disease, snotty nose, constipation, irritable bowel, diverticulitis, whatever.

 

Big ones and little ones, you know, health issues. And that I got up and I just renewed my passion. And I was like, okay, Lord, this is what you've called me to do.

 

So that was that was the real game changer. It kind of a game changer for me. I was beginning to see the unimportance of it.

 

And now, after all these years, I mean, when people hug you and with tears in their eyes, sorry, and tell you that you that you're teaching save their life. Now, I know what God was talking about. And I still love to share the gospel.

 

I still love to teach the word. And I know God's anointed me to do that as well. But this is definitely where God has called me.

 

And another time when I was out speaking, he shared and I was, you know, kind of questioning. And it says in Matthew, when the multitudes, when Jesus saw the multitudes coming to him to heal him, you know, to seek healing. It says he had compassion on them because they were harassed, distressed, bewildered and helpless and dejected like sheep without a shepherd.

 

And it said, and then he goes on to say, and he's telling his disciples, the harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few. And he spoke to me then and he said, the laborers are few. There's not many out there at that time.

 

There were not many people out there teaching what I teach, teaching other things, maybe, but not about the bread, real bread. So those have been some life-changing scriptures that have just given me a heart and a passion to keep going. And then, of course, it’s the bread stories that just come.

 

Laura Dugger: (11:49 - 12:19) So it's incredible. So profound. And I'm with you.

 

I love the Amplified version. Yes. You've supplied us with so much knowledge today and last week.

 

But now I'd love to move on to the wisdom portion, which is learning how to apply what we now know. So Sue, if we're just getting started, what equipment do we need? And then how is that going to be possible for us to incorporate it into our lives?

 

Sue Becker: (12:20 - 17:03) So like I said last time, I think we ended with keep it simple. Grain mill, top of the list. I once heard a lady.

 

She taught a little bit on milling, too. And she said, “I tell everybody you want to change the health of your family. Start with a grain mill.”

 

And like I say, over and over, I have never seen one dietary change make such profound and extensive, immediate, noticeable, across the board health benefits. So start with a grain mill and you don't have to have a barn. You don't have to have a live by a creek and a gristmill and all of that.

 

It will sit right on your counter. And still today, after 34 years of milling my own grain, my grain mill still has prime real estate on my counter. And it's the most valuable kitchen tool in my kitchen.

 

I love the Wonder Mill particularly. We do sell other mills. The NutriMill is a great mill as well.

 

I like the stainless steel milling heads because they're fast, they're very clean, and they just get the job done very quickly. Stone mills have gotten very trendy and popular. We sell those as well.

 

They're slower, might be better for a smaller family. They do, you know, have a broader spectrum of from pre-cracking, cracking the grain to very fine flour. And that's why some people are attracted to that.

 

But if I want cracked grain or coarse ground grain, I just use my blender, which I don't think too many people don't have a blender. You know, we all have blenders. So that's an easy fix for me.

 

And it's just, to me, the micronizing or the stainless steel milling head mills, the Wonder Mill, the NutriMill, they're just so easy to use. Put them together. I mean, they just snap together, turn it on, pour the grain in.

 

There's no calibrating, no, you know, adjusting the milling heads and everything. They're just easy, and they're fast, and they mill a lot of flour at once. So if you have a large family like mine, you know, I milled 12 cups of flour in less than a minute by the time I've got my other ingredients ready.

 

So that's top of your list. And then you're going to have to have some kind of grain. So, like I said, that was the next thing people go, where do I get grain?

 

And I'm like, well, I guess we need to sell grain, too. So we sell just about every kind of grain or bean here at Bread Beckers. We sell it in food-grade plastic buckets so that it is storable.

 

You want to keep your grain protected from moisture and bugs and, of course, rodents. So it's grown outside, so there could be bugs undetected in your grain that you might buy in a bag or something like that. But it's really important to protect your investment.

 

Hard wheat is going to be your grain for yeast bread. So we have hard red and hard white. We do sell also kamut and spelt.

 

Like my sourdough bread I've got working on right now is a combination of kamut and red wheat, which is one I really, really like. But those are more ancient grains. Those are in the bread-making category of wheat, so you could do that.

 

And then if you know you're going to make cakes and cookies and things like that, I highly recommend getting some soft wheat. Well, we get ours is grown in Montana, but they have to irrigate to make it soft wheat, so it is grown. We do have a soft red wheat that is grown here in Georgia that we sell and then a soft white wheat that we also sell.

 

And that's good for your cakes, cookies, brownies, biscuits, things like that. And then corn, mill your own corn. You've never tasted cornbread until you mill your own.

 

These are just easy quick bread recipes. You can find them all in my book, The Essential Home-Ground Flour Book. So that's it.

 

And then, of course, basic list of getting started items. Beyond that, you might already have oil. We use extra virgin olive oil.

 

That's just my oil of choice. There's some other sunflower seed oil, grapeseed oil, avocado oil. Those are good oils.

 

I just don't need another oil. We import our olive oil from Greece, and it is truly extra virgin olive oil. Unfortunately, the olive oil industry is not very reputable, so you have to know what you're getting.

 

And we actually were able to visit the olive oil factory and I guess you call them orchards, the fields, two years ago. And that was really great. It's Creighton Mills.

 

It's a fifth-generation family-owned olive oil company and very, very reputable. And so we know that what we're getting is truly extra virgin. Yeah, you had a question?

 

Laura Dugger: (17:04 - 17:13) Yeah, just with that, because it is such a corrupt industry, can you elaborate a little bit more about what's special about that?

 

Sue Becker: (17:13 - 21:07) Yeah, so to be labeled or designated extra virgin olive oil, it has to have a percent acidity. And I do have a podcast on my Sue's Healthy Minutes, “The Fact About Fats”, and I explain what that means. It's not a pH, but it's a percent acidity of 0.8%. And that's a measurement of the, and I'll go into more detail in my podcast, but simply it's just a measurement of the amount of oxidation of those fatty acids that are found in the olives that has taken place. So, 0.8 means that it's a measurement of how much there. And so, it has to meet that requirement to be extra virgin olive oil. Anything less than that is just better and better, you know.

 

So, our olive oil, excuse me, from the Isle of Crete is where our olive oil comes from in Greece. The basic one we have, the Agrelia, they guarantee that it's 0.8 or less. Most of the time it's 0.5. Then we have one that's 0.2 and so on. And we do have a certified organic. The problem is, and I know not everybody's going to run out and get their olive oil from us, but here's what you want to look for. You want to look for an olive oil that is bottled in the country of origin.

 

Because the disreputable oil companies, when they bring the olive oil in in barrels and take it, it might be checked there at the dock or whatever. But then when they take it to their factory and bottle it, no one pays attention there. So, they are mixing it with other oils oftentimes.

 

We used to sell oil that was labeled extra virgin cold pressed olive oil. We had it tested and the results came back that it was less than 1% olive oil. So that tells you it's, you know, the oils you're buying on the shelf, chances are if they're bottled here in America.

 

Now that I know California makes some. There's actually an olive oil company in South Georgia around Vidalia. They've learned that olives will grow there very well.

 

And so there's some reputable companies in the United States. So, you know, you just need to know your company. But typically, if it comes from another country and bottled here, you might need to be cautious about that.

 

So, yeah. So that's what you need to look for. So, I love olive oil.

 

Contrary to what people try to say that they are selling other oils, olive oil has a perfectly fine smoke point. And you can fry in it. I stir fry in it.

 

I fry my doughnuts in it. You can take it up to 400 degrees without any issues at all. I do use coconut oil from time to time.

 

If I'm trying to make something non-dairy, you know, I'll use it in place of butter. But then I also use real butter. So those are my fats that I look for.

 

And like I said, there's, you know, grapeseed oil is fine. Avocado oil is fine. I think we do sell an avocado oil.

 

But I don't need a lot of other. Those three, olive oil, coconut oil, and butter are just fine. Yeah.

 

Okay. And then raw unpasteurized honey. I sweeten my bread with honey and bake with honey if honey will work.

 

And in most places it will. Where it gets a little tricky working with honey is cakes and cookies and brownies, things like that. I tell people things that have more sugar than flour, you might want to eat in moderation.

 

And that's where, you know, some alternatives, less refined sweeteners. And we use honey granules and sucanat products for brown sugar and white sugar. So those are just some simple things.

 

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I'd love to go into a few of the other ingredients but first if we're even just thinking of the grain ideally we would get to come and visit you and get it from you. We've gone through all the steps.

 

But if we live elsewhere, two questions. How would we start a co-op so that we could have grain or how do we find out if one's already in our area? And then also are there any fear of glyphosate or any other issues with grain?

 

Sue Becker: (24:17 - 32:44) Oh wow, that's a loaded question. So, first of all, let's just say if you don't live close to us, we ship buckets of grain every day. UPS, we do.

 

But the shipping is quite expensive. UPS does not care about the cost of the product. They care about the weight.

 

And so, once we get it boxed up in the box that we have to ship it in, it's 49 pounds. So, it can cost anywhere from $25 to $30 just in shipping for that bucket of grain. Our grain prices are still very competitive, a lot less than a lot of people out there.

 

And we do carbon dioxide package our buckets of grain. So, we guarantee that they are bug free. You don't have to put your grain in the freezer.

 

You don't have to put diatomaceous earth or bay leaves. We've already done it. That's what the carbon dioxide gas has done.

 

And once it does its job, it's done its job. It doesn't matter now if you open the bucket and go in and out, in and out, in and out. But we realized back, I think I shared our Joseph vision of providing God's people with grain.

 

Way back, we started something called co-ops. As we traveled and spoke, people would ask that very question. Okay, great.

 

I'm buying the grain from you now, but what do I do when you leave? You know, I'm in Richmond, Virginia. I'm in Miami, Florida or Orlando, whatever.

 

So, we developed co-ops. And you can go on our website, breadbeckerscoop.com, and find co-ops in your area. And what that is, we have a coordinator, some person that kind of handles and facilitates the ordering.

 

If you join a co-op that's the closest to you, you'll get on, you know, there's no cost to join. And you're never obligated to order. If you don't need to order in that cycle, that's fine.

 

We deliver to each area four times a year. I'm sorry, three times a year, every four months. And so, you'll get an email saying your ordering window is this month.

 

So, you order, say, in August for a September delivery or June for a July delivery. And everybody's on a schedule. We have them grouped together.

 

And then you can order as much or as little as you want. And it greatly reduces the shipping cost per bucket. And you typically get a discount for ordering with the co-op as a group.

 

So that's a great advantage of a co-op. If you can't find one in your area, then email support@breadbeckers.com, and we'll send you the information of starting a co-op in your area. Pretty much all you have to do, because it's pretty streamlined, when people order they just go online, order, and pay us.

 

But then it's put together as your co-op. And you just have to facilitate the delivery and then making sure everybody knows to come get their product from you. But that's the way it works.

 

So that would be a great opportunity to get grain and whatever. And like I said, we ship anything on our website you can get through the co-op, most everything, really, really saves on shipping. And then we have certified organic grain here.

 

And, of course, it can have no chemical, herbicides, pesticides, fertilizers used at all. Contrary to what you may read and hear and see on the internet, wheat is not genetically modified, not at all. Now it was approved for testing and trials last year in August, but up until that point none at all was here in the United States.

 

And it's still in the trial and testing. I'm praying that it never comes out on the commercial market. But right now, there is no genetically modified wheat, especially that we offer or that's offered out there commercially.

 

That being said, that means wheat is not roundup ready. If it was sprayed with glyphosate, it would kill the plant. Now, non-organic farmers can use it on their soil to kill, you know, whatever's been growing.

 

So pre-planting, then once they harvest it, they can use it after harvest. So, there is an issue with, you know, using glyphosates in our non-organic farming techniques. It is very uncommon, contrary to what you hear people say, for a wheat farmer to use roundup or glyphosate as a desiccant to harvest their grain.

 

It's very, very uncommon in the United States. Colder climates where there's a chance they might lose it to bad weather or whatever, they may. But even still there's other things they prefer to do instead of that because that's expensive.

 

It's not cheap. You know, you're talking 30,000-acre farms, these, you know, big wheat farmers. So, it's very, very uncommon.

 

And you can even find that information on the USDA website, that it's less than 3% ever use it like that. Now, like I said, there are other crops and farmers that use it pre and post harvest, but we're very comfortable with our grain suppliers. Most of our wheat comes from Montana.

 

It's cold. And they still practice pretty traditional farming methods, tilling things under and planting cover crops and things like that. But if you're really, really concerned, then buy certified organic.

 

I mean, you know, for the price difference, yes, I think it's like $12, but that's for 42 pounds of grain. So, you know, but like I said, we are very comfortable with our farmers, with our suppliers. Our oat supplier says that they spot check and make sure that, you know, no glyphosate is used even on their non-organics.

 

I think the problem with there, and people are going to say, oh, yeah, but they tested all these cereals and these oat products and found that they all had residual glyphosate. You've got to remember; those are your big food companies. Those are your big pharma, your big, the other pharma, F-A-R-M-E, you know, M-A.

 

There's no telling, you know, what they do. But, you know, glyphosate use is a significant issue. I want people to understand that.

 

But it's more in the farming techniques of desiccating after harvest, instead of used to farmers after harvest, the stubbles all there and corn stalks are all there. They would till it all under and then that would decay and, you know, help nourish the soil. Now they're going in, and this is non-organic farming, they're going in and spraying the fields and then just using seed drills.

 

Not as prevalent, I don't believe, with wheat, but it is used a lot with soybeans, corn, what else, cotton. Cotton is really bad. And there's not a lot you can do.

 

I mean, we just have to stay informed. But I hate it when I see people passing on misinformation about making it sound like it's just a blanket procedure that's done of desiccating these massive wheat fields, you know. And I've seen pictures; people will show them dead in the field.

 

Well, the wheat turns very golden and dries out, you know, before harvest. And then once they harvest it, it dies right there in the field. So, it's just kind of a misnomer.

 

But when in doubt, buy organic. So there. But, you know, I tell people if you're going to avoid toxins and glyphosate the way it's being used in our country today, you would basically have to never leave your house, go naked and probably never eat any food at all, you know.

 

And think about like lawns and golf courses and things like that. If you live around that, you're being exposed a good bit. So, wheat is actually detoxifying.

 

So, it passes through the body absorbing toxins. So, I think you're safe with wheat and, you know. But again, buy organic if you're concerned.

 

Laura Dugger: (32:45 - 32:57) Love that explanation. And then because I think of the other ingredients and bread and even the offerings that you have, what should we be aware of when it comes to salt and emulsifiers?

 

Sue Becker: (32:58 - 36:23) Yeah. So salt is something I studied later, you know, after I, you know, I, it made sense why they started, you know, separating the bran and germ from the flour too. So, the flour wouldn't spoil, but I'm like, salt doesn't spoil.

 

Why would they refine salt and do some digging and do some research and you find that natural mined mineral salt has trace minerals that we need, but it's the sodium chloride that makes the salty flavor. So, they, they have learned that they can extract those trace minerals out of the mind mineral salt and sell that to other industries for minerals and leave us with the sodium chloride and it's perfectly salty. So why not do that?

 

And then so that it will rain, well, it will, you know, “when it rains, it pours” the, you, you're probably too young to know that slogan, but that was a big one when I was growing up. They heat treat the salt so that it does not readily absorb moisture. So the crystals are harder so that when it rains or it's humid, it will pour unlike your unrefined salt that will tend to clump up if it's humid.

 

So that's what started happening to our salt. And I didn't believe this, but I did just a few weeks ago, go to the store because I haven't bought salt in years. Cause I get it.

 

We sell Redmond's natural mined mineral salt that comes from Utah, but I went to the store and sure enough, they put anti-caking agents sometimes in some of the brands of salt, dextrose, which is a sugar. Who would have thought that? And just know that you know, the heat treatment is makes it where it doesn't readily absorb moisture.

 

So that's why you tend to hold fluids when you eat a lot of salty foods. So, it's trying to help your body be able to utilize it. And while we're on salt, I hear a lot of people, they'll ask me, can I make the bread without salt?

 

My doctors put me on a low salt diet. First of all, that's concerning, but I want to say to you, just getting rid of processed foods, it will greatly diminish your sodium intake from bread to they have, you know, when things are so denatured that they, you know, they smash it, they cook it, they boil it, they take all this out and that out. Well, then it's flavorless.

 

So, they have to sweeten it and salt it to make you want to even buy it again. So, if you look at ingredient or not ingredient labels, but nutrition labels on processed foods, and I'm talking canned fruits, vegetables, bread products, and all these things, you will see that the sodium levels are much higher than the potassium levels. Well, in nature, that is not the way it is in, in your fresh fruits and vegetables.

 

Your potassium level is typically twice your sodium level where, so read your labels on your food and you'll see that sodium is typically twice the potassium in processed foods. So that's what I encourage people. You know, you can make bread without salt.

 

You probably won't like it. It'll be kind of tasteless. If you need to read, if you feel more comfortable reducing the amount of salt, then do that.

 

But most importantly, quit eating processed foods. That's going to greatly reduce your salt intake and then use a natural mind mineral salt that your body can utilize. So that's salt.

 

What was the other thing?

 

Laura Dugger: (36:24 - 36:25) Emulsifier.

 

Sue Becker: (36:25 - 40:36) Raw unpasteurized honey is what I use. I recommend. And then the emulsifier.

 

I think you must be talking about lecithin. Lecithin is totally an optional ingredient. You can make great bread without lecithin, but I'm going to tell you, you can make really great bread by adding a little bit of lecithin to your bread dough.

 

It's a natural emulsifier. It is what's called a phospholipid. It has an acetylcholine that is what it's made of.

 

And it, it, what it does in your body, it breaks down fat and cholesterol into small enough particles that can get through your capillary wall and into your bloodstream and into your cells and your tissue. It is found in any type of unrefined food that has oil. So, your eggs, your milk, your oils, your unrefined keyword, unrefined oils, and guess where else?

 

Grains and beans. It's in the, the germ portion of your grains and beans. And that is the nutrient that even without adding it to your bread, it is there already.

 

And that's the nutrient that I discovered brought brings down cholesterol, blood level cholesterol, because, and somebody kind of argued when I said that one time and I'm like, no, no, no, no. I didn't say cholesterol was bad. Cholesterol is not a bad guy.

 

I like the way one biochemist puts it. She said, it's just the pig that got stuck in the barn door. It actually does.

 

It gets stuck in our blood vessels because its big fat molecules are typically big. We need that lecithin in unrefined foods that have oil grains being one of those. And one of the most nutrient dense ones is, is your grains and beans and sources of lecithin, so it breaks those down into small enough particles so that they can get out of our blood and into our tissues and our cells where it is so needed.

 

Cholesterol is a precursor of just about all your sex hormones, all your anti-inflammatory hormones that your body can make. If it has lecithin it helps vitamin D be converted. The sunshine be converted to vitamin D and our body and it makes; it's a part of the fat and protein layer of every cell in your body.

 

The cell membrane of every cell in your body. So, it's very, very important to get that cholesterol out of the blood into the cell. So that's lecithin okay.

 

That was a lot of information. What does it do to our bread? The very same thing it does in your body.

 

It breaks the oil down. You've all heard the saying oil and water don't mix. Well, it breaks the oil down so that it is small enough particles.

 

So, it will go mix into your dough a little better and it will make your dough very smooth, very silky. It will make your bread so very soft. And it's the same.

 

It's the reason they use it in the food industry. They put it in salad dressings so that oil and vinegar will, will mix and stay mixed a little bit better. They started using it in the margarine industry because they're mixing milk and, and milk fats and water.

 

So, they put the lecithin in there. Now I'm not saying don't eat margarine. That's not what I said.

 

They put it in Reese's peanut butter cups. That's what makes that chocolate so smooth and creamy. I'm not saying don't eat Reese's peanut butter cups to get your lecithin, but I'm just explaining that's what it does.

 

It's in your body and outside of your body and your food, and it will make your bread and rolls so soft. And we actually learned when we had a bakery years ago that it helps your bread retain moisture. It keeps it from drying out so quickly. But it's one of those things in Haiti and Tanzania, they don't make bread with lecithin that's an expense that we don't need. But if you want some really, really soft bread and really help my tortilla dough be really smooth and silky and make those tortillas just press out really well. So that's, that's why we use it there.

 

You can use an egg has lecithin as well. I use both an egg and lecithin, and I have really, really soft bread. So just depends on what you're going for.

 

I don't typically put it in my sourdough cause that's a different texture. And I don't typically put oil in my sourdough bread.

 

Laura Dugger: (40:36 - 41:26) So yeah, it just depends on what you're doing there. Okay. That's so good to know.

 

And with the fresh milled grain, I know that it loses nutritional value each day. And I think you've recommended don't let it go more than three days. You'll have to discard it if you don't use it in that time.

 

And it makes me just wonder, then I'm going to link to a previous episode that we did on preparing food for our family, because one of the practices I'm thinking of was whatever you're making, make double and freeze half. So, Sue, I'm curious then with the nutritional value, if the freshly milled grain that we use as the flour is used in our baked goods or our bread, but then we put it in the freezer to be consumed at a later time. Does that compromise any of the nutritional value?

 

Sue Becker: (41:27 - 45:57) Right? Not in, not that I have read and studied what we have to know that as soon as that grain is milled into flour, then now you've exposed the nutrients, the oil and all these to the air and oxidation begins to take place. You might not see it in flour, but you've all seen it in a banana or apple.

 

You cut it, it starts turning dark right away. So, there's a lot of discrepancy and different viewpoints out there on how long that flour until the flour spoils. Well, that would be kind of like that apple is not spoiled, but definitely oxidation has taken place.

 

So, years ago, I read some information that in the first day, you can lose as much as 45% by the third day, maybe as much as 90%. I don't, I don't have that information anymore. You know, I never thought I'd be speaking and teaching, so I don't quote it a lot, but I did contact a university, and they said most of the oxidation is going to take place in those first few days after milling.

 

So exact numbers they didn't give me. But now I will say this, I would never throw flour away. So, I'm not going to say it's bad for you.

 

And some people say six months to a year is the shelf life of that flour. You're not going to lose your protein. You're not going to lose your fiber.

 

It's still probably the most nutrient dense flour that you can use and buy. But I will say this, your best bet is once the bread is baked from everything I have studied, the nutritional loss is minimal. So, if you need to make bread ahead, have a baking day, then bake your bread, freeze your bread or whatever you need to do so that it, most of the time, my bread will last for five or six days.

 

Well, I say it won't mold in that time. Most of the time we eat it before then. So that would, that would be your best bet.

 

Also storing bread, you want to either freeze it or leave it at room temperature. You don't want to store bread at refrigeration in the refrigerator. It will dry it out and cause it to go stale.

 

Now, of course, if you have meat or something like that in there that needs to be refrigerated, of course, refrigerated muffins, little higher moisture. So, if you're not going to eat those in the, in a day or two or three, they, they might mold. So put them in the refrigerator.

 

I have learned a little trick with storing muffins, put a paper towel in the container, either the bag or the container that you're storing them in. It'll really keep them from turning gooey. And of course, always let your bread muffins, whatever completely cool before you package them.

 

But I never throw flour away. If typically, I travel with a grain mill or with bread, if I'm going on a short trip where I'm not taking my mill or whatever with me, then I'll, I'll take bread with me camping. Our family used to camp one.

 

Can't take my milk. We did more primitive camping, can't tent camping, can't take my mill with me. So, I would mill up a pail of flour to make pancakes and, and things, you know, while we were camping.

 

So, we would camp a week. I'm certainly not going to go home. I can't use this.

 

It's older than three days. So, it's not going to hurt you to go that long, but it's, it's the best is mill the flour, bake your bread, mill your flour when you're ready to do your baking and then freeze or store or whatever. But sometimes that's not always possible.

 

We went snow skiing a few years ago and we did take the bread machine. We went with my daughter and her family and we took, we opted to take the bread machine and we just milled flour and put it in a pail and we made bread every day. So, we couldn't take both.

 

So, we did it that way. So certainly there's, there's, there's options. So, yeah, but I never throw flour away.

 

And if I, if I happened to over mill and I have, you know, some charts that show you about how much grain to mill to get, how much flour. So, I rarely over mill, but sometimes you mill and go, Oh, I can't, you know, emergency have to leave. I would bag it, put it in the refrigerator and just try to use it, you know, as first before you use other things.

 

Or if I have a little bit leftover, I'll keep it in the refrigerator and use it to dust my countertop or whatever, when I'm rolling my bread or dump it in my, you know, with a big batch of bread I'm using and just not worry about it. But 90% of the bread, no more than that, probably 99% of the bread I eat. I mill the flour, make the bread or the muffins or the pancakes or whatever.

 

Laura Dugger: (45:57 - 47:00) So I'm so grateful for that clarification. I definitely have information. So that is awesome.

 

I just wanted to let you know, there are now multiple ways to give when you visit TheSavvySauce.com. We now have a donation button on our website and you can find it under the donate page, which is under the tab entitled support. Our mailing address is also provided.

 

If you would prefer to save us the processing fee and send a check that is tax deductible, either way, you'll be supporting the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and helping us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. Make sure you visit TheSavvySauce.com today. Thanks for your support.

 

So, let's say we've gathered our ingredients. We've made our first recipe. How long does it typically take to experience the benefits from this lifestyle change?

 

And just to recap, what are some of the health benefits that you may experience?

 

Sue Becker: (47:01 - 58:28) Well, bowel issues are going to be corrected pretty quickly. For me, constipation was my issue. It was done first day, I ate bread.

 

Like I said, poop the next morning. A lot of people go, oh, constipation is not my problem. I'm going five times a day or 10 times a day.

 

So that's more irritable bowel, spastic colon or chronic diarrhea. That may take a week to 10 days to correct, but we've seen people very quickly correct those bowel issues. So, bowel issues are probably the number one, the fastest that you might see.

 

And I, I, you, I love this story that I tell on a lady, and I used to year. I've been telling it for about 20 years. And I used to call her an older lady, but I'm older than she is.

 

Then she was then when I called her an older lady. So, this very young lady, she was the mother of a customer of ours. And the customer was her and her husband were missionaries and they were here on furlough.

 

And she came into the store. Her mother lived in Boston, I believe. And she said, Sue, my mother's having a terrible time.

 

She it's been on steroids for 10 years for her bowel issues. That you should never do that. And she said, but every time they try to wean her off, she has horrible issues.

 

She now has bleeding bowels. She can't sleep through the night. She's getting up five times in the night to go to the bathroom.

 

She can't leave her house. and I hear this a lot. I've had a fella gave testimonies, construction worker.

 

He goes, “Do you know what? The number one thing I have to find out when I go to check on the job, I have to know where the port-a-john is. I, cause I have to go.”

 

So anyway, back to this story. They, you know, And she was going to go to the hospital. And that was right about the time.

 

The gluten-free stuff was coming out. And she said, so she's been told maybe you need to go gluten-free. And she came in and, As a missionary budget, limited budget.

 

And I said, “You know what? Our ministry will give your mother a grain mill.” She was going.

 

The daughter was going to spend two weeks with her. And she goes, I'll teach her how to make bread. She thought about it for a minute.

 

And she goes, I do not know how to make gluten-free bread. Just give me a bucket of red wheat. It can't hurt her.

 

She's already got bleeding bowels. and if it makes it worse, we'll just stop. She emailed me and said in five days of real bread, her mother was sleeping through the night, no longer having the bowel episodes.

 

In two weeks while they were there, everything had normalized and her mother had her life back. That's pretty amazing. So, you're gonna see bowel issues correct pretty, pretty quickly.

 

We've seen that so many times. And then for me, sinus congestion, when your bowels are moving. And we talked about toxins in your colon, sitting in your colon.

 

We talked about the cancer relationship. But another thing that a lot of people don't realize, what's dumped in your colon and your bowels to be eliminated every day is the stuff your body doesn't want. It's toxic waste, whatever.

 

And if it's not eliminated every day, it's gonna sit there and get absorbed into your body. And one of your body's reaction to toxins is to make mucus so you can blow it out your nose or cough it up. You know, think about it logically.

 

When we get sick with a cold or a flu, that organism has made a toxin that our body is trying to get rid of. So, we make all this mucus and that's why you get congestion and you sneeze and you're coughing, you know, so your body can get rid of it. Well, what I learned when I realized I was no longer congested, I started studying.

 

I was like, how is this happening? Well, that's what I learned, that now that my bowels were dumping and eliminating toxins out of my body every day, I was no longer getting that toxic response of the excess mucus. My body was doing what it needed.

 

I no longer needed the antihistamines and the decongestants. So that was a big one for me. Of course, the wart story is pretty amazing.

 

People laughed at me when I told that in the beginning. I knew that it was the bread, that one of my children's warts that he had had for three years went away in the first month. And I discovered that it was the vitamin E that protects every cell in our body and from lots of things, but from being compromised by oxidation.

 

And if your cell is compromised, it is more susceptible to viral invasion. Viruses are caused by warts. So now that our body, the richest food source of vitamin E is wheat, but it has to be freshly milled.

 

So now our body was now getting this abundant source of vitamin E, which by the way, we had our bread tested. And one slice provides 100% of your daily vitamin E need. Wow.

 

Now, I don't necessarily agree with the daily requirement, but still one slice, which no amount of vitamin E was ever put back in enriched bread. But anyway, so I knew that this was the vitamin E protecting the cells and making us less susceptible to viral invasion. And my son's warts went away that he had had for years and in just the first month.

 

So, we tell that, I would tell that story. And we have now hundreds of wart stories, hundreds of wart stories. The most profound one was lady heard me speak at a homeschool show.

 

I only have 45 minutes to speak at a homeschool show. And I'm like, woo, a lot of information in that. So, I talk really, really fast.

 

And sometimes I share this and sometimes I don't. I started to skip my wart story. The Lord, the Holy Spirit just had me stop, tell my wart story.

 

And I finished that day a little earlier than normal. I never finish early. And I just said, well, you know, does anybody have anything to share?

 

Two people shared their wart stories. Unbeknownst to me, mom was in my class, walking down the hall to go to another class because there's lots of workshops at these shows, you know. And the Lord told her to come in mine.

 

There, when I left the room, she was standing outside and told me that. She with tears in her eyes said that she had been praying that God would send her an answer that her daughter had over 500 warts on her. She had had them for, since she was 12 years old, she was now 17.

 

They had had them all burned off, which they didn't treat the virus. So, they all came back, of course. They had been on different medications.

 

She goes; they currently have her on ulcer medication saying that maybe it's caused by stress. Okay, so she follows me back to our table where we're making bread. She eats the bread.

 

She goes, it's delicious. She goes how much is a mill? I told her and she goes; I've paid more than that for one prescription drug that didn't work.

 

What have I got to lose? I like to cook. We have to eat.

 

We'll see. Two and a half weeks, two and a half weeks, every wart on that child's body was gone. She had her life back.

 

She was ashamed. She was embarrassed that she had these nasty patches of warts on her. She wouldn't wear shorts.

 

She wouldn't swim in public with her friends because she was embarrassed and ashamed. And so that's more than just a wart story. And I tell that the wart story because, I mean, like I said, we have hundreds.

 

One little girl prayed that God would take her wart away and they heard about the bread and it went away, you know? And because here's my thought. If this bread can improve your resistance to a virus that causes warts that you've had for five, some people 10 years, what other viruses will it protect you from?

 

That's important to know. And that's what I saw with our, we rarely had colds. We rarely caught flus, you know, from other people.

 

Not saying we never did, but when we did, we got well very quickly and typically, you know, faster than others. Skin issues. Had a mom in here the other day just say that her, she said, we call your bread, the miracle bread.

 

Her son had eczema all behind his ears and on his arms, all cleared up. I had another young man come from; he had heard me speak. His wife heard me speak at a conference in Missouri.

 

They were traveling through, they came to a class, and he came up and said, “Can I hug you?” And I was like, “Well, sure, yeah, go ahead.” And he said, “My wife heard you speak.”

 

And he said, “what you didn't know is I had this rash on my body and it was stinging. It was burning. Doctor after doctor, medication, steroids, nothing ever helped.”

 

And he said, “It feels, it felt like fire ants burning me. Had it for years and nothing worked.” His wife heard me speak.

 

I don't know if she thought, made the correlation with pellagra. I don't know. But anyway, she bought the mill, bought the mixer.

 

She didn't say anything to me. And he said, within a month, the rash was completely gone. But here's one thing he said.

 

He goes, “It was so painful. I had gotten to the point where I wanted to die.” That's pretty significant.

 

And talk, you know, and now within a month, what doctors couldn't fix, the bread did, the nutrients, the B vitamins, the vitamin E, whatever else was in that bread cured his skin issues. And we hear psoriasis, people with psoriasis, it completely goes away in a matter of a few months. Depression, anxiety.

 

One little girl struggled with depression, and they told her to go gluten-free and it got worse. She was so fearful. She couldn't even sleep in her bedroom.

 

She had to sleep on the floor in her parents' room. And the mom with tears in her eyes said, within, they decided to not go gluten-free and to try freshly milling. And the little girl is happy and excited and has her life back.

 

So, I could go on and on and on. And we, you know, just the health of children is powerful to me. And we've seen heart disease.

 

God says in Psalm 104 that he gave man bread to strengthen and nourish the heart. We've had people say, I mean, well, one lady in particular, this was years ago, I wish I had taken her name to follow up with her, but she said her husband in one month and all she changed was the bread, came off the heart transplant list. She said, the doctor says he's not out of the woods yet, but his heart muscle is functioning so well, can't justify being on the heart transplant list.

 

And, you know, I read the works of Dr. Wilfred Schutt, world renowned cardiologist. Do you know what he used to treat heart disease? Vitamin E.

 

And in his book that has nothing to do with milling your own grain and making your own bread, do you know what he attributes heart disease to? When the white flour came on the scene and they started taking the bran and germ out of our flour. He said, we lost the most potent antithrombin, blood thinning and vitamin E for the strength of the heart muscle.

 

So yeah, we've seen a lot in 35 years or 34 years. It's been amazing. And people write and say, “I know you must get tired of hearing this.”

I never get tired of hearing testimonies and stories. And I call them “it's the bread stories” because they tell me it's the bread that's all I've changed and this is what I've seen. And so, and it's, yeah, it's powerful.

 

Laura Dugger: (58:29 - 58:56) Well, I love because even before we recorded this conversation, we prayed that God would do more than we could ever ask or imagine. And I feel like that's what he has done with bread too. There's still so much more, but you're just to encapsulate a few things, the improved energy, the supported hormones, the ailments that are corrected, there's so much.

 

And if we want to get started, then can you remind us of your website and what our first step could be today?

 

Sue Becker: (58:56 - 1:00:59) Yeah, first step, buy a grain mill, buy some grain, start milling your bread. And if you're scared of yeast bread, then make muffins and make pancakes. Machines help, you might all have a mixer that you can go ahead and use to make your yeast breads, but muffins, pancakes, coffee cake, three of my basic ingredients, I mean, my recipes that I started with, that's a wire whisk in a bowl.

 

You don't need to knead; you don't need to worry about letting it rise. Buy the tools that help you make this a lifestyle. Bread machine, you might see the Zojirushi bread machine behind you, that, I mean, five minutes, mill the flour, five minutes, dump it in, all your ingredients, come back to a baked loaf of bread.

 

You know, push the start button, come back to a baked loaf of bread. Mixer, for my family, the mixer worked very well because I would mix up dough to make six to nine loaves of bread or six loaves of bread at a time. And I did that twice a week, interspersed with muffins, pancakes, and all of that.

 

So, keep it simple, get a grain mill, get some grain and get a recipe book that you enjoy and just dive in. You won't be sorry. Go to breadbeckers.com.

 

You can find a lot of information. Go to our YouTube channel, Bread Beckers YouTube channel. Lots of videos and how-tos and classes, our getting started classes on there.

 

There's a couple of videos, a basic list of getting started items where I explain to you the hard wheat, the soft wheat, the red wheat, the white wheat, and those things. And I highly recommend, it's a long video, it's three and a half hours long, but it's called Real Bread, the Staff of Life. You can watch it in segments.

 

Pause me if you need to come back later, but it's very profound information. It's 30 years of studying and research and gleaning the scriptures and science and textbooks. And then Instagram, follow us on Facebook and Instagram.

 

And then of course, Sue's Healthy Minutes podcast. You will be blessed by all the information there as well as the testimonies that are shared.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:01:00 - 1:01:19) Incredible. We'll add all of those links in the show notes for today's episode. And Sue, as you remember last time, we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight.

 

And so, as my final question for you again today, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Sue Becker: (1:01:19 - 1:04:32) So what I want to encourage people today is seek the truth. Use your common sense that God has given you. I want to read a quote by a doctor that promotes healthy living, but I want you to listen to what he says.

 

Here's the quote. “Damage to the gastrointestinal tract from the overuse of antibiotics, anti-inflammatory drugs like Advil or Aleve, acid blocking drugs, we talked about that last time, like Prilosec or Nexium, combined with our low fiber, high sugar diet leads to the development of celiac disease and gluten intolerance or sensitivity and the resultant inflammation.” Did you hear that?

 

I absolutely agree with that. All those things cause damage to the gastrointestinal tract and lead to allergies and things like that. “This is why,” now there's where I want you to listen and use your common sense.

 

“This is why the elimination of gluten can be a powerful way to prevent and reverse this and many other chronic diseases.” Next sentence. “The biggest problem is wheat, the major source of gluten in our diet.”

 

Did you hear wheat or gluten listed in his causes? No, you did not. He is making an illogical conclusion to his own truth that he just presented.

 

Wheat didn't cause that. Wheat can actually cure that. And you asked me about a verse that has meant so much to me and powerful, profound verse in the scripture, Deuteronomy 24:6.

 

In that scripture, it's the law. Sometimes you get bogged down in Deuteronomy. I will never forget when I stumbled, didn't stumble, but I was reading this verse and what God showed me.

 

In that chapter or in that verse, God gave a law for what you could take as a pledge when someone borrowed something from you. In those days, if someone was gonna borrow something, they would leave you with something of value of theirs as a pledge. I'm gonna return what I borrowed from you or I'm gonna pay you back or whatever.

 

Listen to God's law. He says, “Do not take a man's upper millstone as a pledge for you would be taking his life.” That is pretty profound.

 

Someone in the early 1900s took our milling stones, took our mills out of our home and we've been losing our health and our life ever since. Wheat is not the biggest problem. Wheat is the answer.

 

Freshly milled, of course. So contrary to popular belief, everything you read on the internet is not true. So, dig into God's word, find the discrepancy from what you're hearing in the world and what God's word says and let his truth rule and reign in your life.

 

That would be my advice.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:04:33 - 1:05:03) That is so good again, Sue, and thank you for getting mills back in our home and thank you for being my returning energetic and intelligent and faithful guest. You're so humble in your approach and you're grounded and rooted in your faith in Jesus Christ. So, I pray that these conversations radically change and improve drastically all of our lives.

 

So, thank you, Sue, for being my returning guest.

 

Sue Becker: (1:05:04 - 1:05:06) You are so welcome and that is my prayer as well.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:05:07 – 1:08:51)  One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

What if this ONE nutritional upgrade changes everything: An Interview with Sue Becker (Episode 279)

279. What if this ONE nutritional upgrade changes everything: An Interview with Sue Becker

 

Proverbs 14:12 NIV "There is a way that appears to be right, but in the end it leads to death."

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Sue Becker is a gifted speaker and teacher, with a passion to share principles of healthy living in an encouraging way.  She is the co-owner of The Bread Beckers and founder of the ministry, Real Bread Outreach, all dedicated to promoting whole grain nutrition. Sue has a degree in Food Science from UGA and is the author of The Essential Home-Ground Flour Book. Sue is a veteran home-schooling mom with 9 children and 15 grandchildren and 1 great-grandchild so far. She and her husband Brad, live in Canton, GA. Through her teaching, countless families have found improved health.

 

Sue’s Instagram: @suebreadbeckers

Sue’s Website

Sue’s Podcast

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Radiant Faith and Wellness event

 

Questions and Topics We Cover:

1. Will you tell us about your professional background and share what led to a life-changing discovery? 
2. In addition to helping us feel better, how can this swap also affect our weight?
3. We are told gluten is the enemy, but you teach how wheat can actually be the cure, not the cause. . . Will you elaborate why even people who are sensitive to gluten can still enjoy this bread and experience greater health benefits because of it?

 

Related Episodes from The Savvy Sauce:

14 Simple Changes for Healthier Living with Leslie Sexton and Vasu Thorpe

26 Practical Tips to Eating Dinner Together as a Family with Blogger and Cookbook Co-Author, Rachel Tiemeyer

33 Pursuing Health with Functional Medicine Specialist, Dr. Jill Carnahan

129 Healthy Living with Dr. Tonya Khouri

205 Power of Movement with Alisa Keeton (Revelation Wellness)

212 School Series: Benefits of Homeschooling with Jodi Mockabee

256 Gut Health, Allergies, Inflammation and Proactive Solutions with Emily Macleod-Wolfe

261 Edible Theology with Kendall Vanderslice

270 Female Sex Hormones, Periods, and Perimenopause with Emily Macleod-Wolfe

275 Raising Healthy Kids: Free Tips with Emily Johnson

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:09)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:29) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

Have you heard about this one-of-a-kind experience, the Radiant Faith and Wellness event?

 

It's going to take place January 30th and 31st at the Cannery in Eureka. I hope you learn more or purchase your tickets on this website or check them out on Instagram at @radiantwellnessevent and make sure you stay tuned to find out what the code is so that you can purchase your discounted tickets.

 

Happy New Year everyone! I am so excited to get to kick off the year with one of the best episodes I can ever remember.

 

You are in for a treat today with my guest Sue Becker. She is going to enlighten us to the one achievable, easy-to-implement nutritional change that could change everything. Here's our chat.

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Sue.

 

Sue Becker: (1:30 - 1:39) Thank you so much for having me. It is a real honor to be able to share my story, share my message with others that can listen and hear.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:40 - 1:56) Well, it may be one of the times I've most anticipated this conversation, but I'd love to just start by going back. Will you tell us about your professional background and share what led to a life-changing discovery?

 

Sue Becker: (1:56 - 14:21) Yes, yes. Well, it's a little bit of a long story, but I'll keep it as brief as possible. So, I always say, many years ago, headed off to the University of Georgia as a pre-med student because I loved studying everything about the human body and I wanted to help people and save the world, you know, all the grandiose ideas.

 

But my big passion was physiology and biochemistry. I loved studying that. Got there and realized, you know, I don't really want to be in school that long and I don't want that type of career after I graduate.

 

I knew my ultimate goal was to be a stay-at-home mom and I was like, okay, so why am I pursuing this? But I loved the field of study. And so changed my major, got accepted into pharmacy school, spent a quarter there and went, this isn't really what I want to do either.

 

So then I was led by the Dean of Pharmacy School to the field of food science, which was an up-and-coming industry at the time. I focused my attention more on the microbiology aspect of it and after graduation, I worked for Kraft Foods for almost five years as a bacteriologist in the lab there. I met my husband at the University of Georgia, and we married, actually, our senior year.

 

And so then, like I said, after I graduated, I started working for Kraft until I had my first child. I did become a mom, for sure. I have nine children, seven biological, two we adopted later in life, ranging in ages now from 45.

 

My oldest daughter doesn't like me to tell that, but it's too bad. It's what it is. 45 to 29, I believe Olivia is.

 

Yes, 29. And then I have 19 grandchildren and my very first great grandchild was born just a few weeks ago. So that's been a real blessing and a treat.

 

But after graduation, because I loved studying, it's funny, I tell everybody I'm a much better student now than I ever was in college. It's funny how you love to study once you don't have to perform with tests and things. But I continued studying physiology, biochemistry, read the works of prominent biochemists of the day and kind of came at everything with believing that we're fearfully and wonderfully made.

 

Our bodies know what they need and if they're not getting something they need, then chances are we're going to see sickness or lack of health. So, I kind of came at everything from that standpoint. It might be a little simplistic, but I think it's a great starting place.

 

So, I focused on feeding my family healthy food, you know, supplementing when we needed to. I tell people I grew up Southern. I grew up in a family of cooks and not chefs, but we cooked.

 

We ate real meat, real vegetables. My husband and I loved to garden. We grew our own corn and peas and beans and tomatoes and all the things.

 

So, we were eating real food. But we weren't a sickly family for sure, not compared to what others were, but we still had our share, our fair share. And so, we clipped along like this and I, in 1991, because of my interest in physiology, biochemistry, I subscribed to a publication, a health journal.

 

And the first publication that came into my home was entitled, "How to Greatly Reduce the Risk of Common Diseases." In this journal, the history of white flour was presented. Now, this was very eye-opening information.

 

Maybe I need to back up a little bit. The food science is not a nutrition degree. It's not a home economic degree.

 

It's the study of food processing. Everything that has to be done to keep that food safely on the shelf. Something's great. Something's not so great. So, when I read this information, I was like, how did I miss what's done to our bread? Through my studies, I had always read that whole wheat flour was better, but I didn't understand why.

 

So, in this journal, the history of white flour was presented. All the processing that is done to make that flour sit on the shelf forever, never really. And this is, like I said, what opened my eyes.

 

I learned that whole grains, real whole grains are the most nutrient-dense food God has given us. But in that journal, I learned that only when they're freshly milled, do they retain all their vital nutrients. You know, like I said, I had read that whole wheat flour was better.

 

I was trying to buy the stuff in the store, but it was kind of gross, nasty, I say. Didn't make nice bread, certainly not fluffy muffins. So, kind of gave up on that, trying to make bread with the store-bought whole grain flour.

 

And so, we were just buying whole wheat flour from the store. But I learned in that journal, it's not really what you think it is. And I, so like I said, I also, as a food scientist, what was so enlightening to me, when I read that word enrichment on the bags of flour or the bread products in the store, I thought, wow, we're making this better than it would have been, had we not done this favor.

 

I soon learned in this journal that that was not a favor that food companies are doing for us. They replace in their enrichment, a mere fraction of the nutrients that are there. And of course, I learned that once the flour is milled, I learned, well, let me, grains are storable, left whole and intact.

 

They store fairly indefinitely. But once that flour is, once that grain is milled into flour, it begins to spoil. The nutrients begin to oxidize.

 

So this led to the invention of these huge steel rolling mills that would take out the very nutrient rich bran, the oil laden germ that was causing the spoilage of the flour and leaving only the endosperm part, which is the white flour, protein and starch. Wonderful discovery. This flour won't spoil.

 

It'll sit on the shelf forever. And like I said, it looked like a wonderful discovery. And this all happened in the late 1800s, early 1900s.

 

By about 1910, the steel rolling mills had completely replaced the local millers because prior to the 1900s, most of the bread consumed in this country was either milled at home or the flour was purchased from a local miller. The bread was made at home and it was consumed at home. But with this invention, steel rolling, the steel rolling mills displaced the local millers, white flour, white bread became food now for everyone, rich and poor alike.

 

And can you imagine every housewife going, yay, I don't have to mill my flour anymore. I'll never forget years ago, Brad's 93-year-old grandfather lived with us for a little while. And I was in the kitchen milling some corn for cornbread.

 

And he went like this from his chair. He went, "I milled a lot of corn in my day." So, you can imagine people were like, hallelujah, we don't have to mill our flour.

 

But what seemed like an amazing, convenient, life-saving discovery actually turned out to not be so great. Shortly thereafter, the steel rolling mills and white flour became food for everybody. Three diseases became epidemic.

 

Beriberi, which is a vitamin B1 deficiency, it results in nervous disorders. Pellagra is a vitamin B3 or niacin deficiency, results in GI issues, skin issues, dementia, mental insanity. And that one really interested me because I did some more research on that and actually found out that the first case of pellagra was diagnosed right here in Atlanta, Georgia, which I'm from that area, you know, this area where our store in Woodstock is 35 miles north.

 

That first year 30,000 cases were diagnosed. Then anemia was the third disease. This puzzled health officials all over the country. They're like, what in the world is going on?

 

Why are we seeing this outbreak of diseases? And at first they thought beriberi and pellagra were maybe some type of infectious disease. But eventually they traced it to the new white flour that was on the market and the missing B vitamins and iron minerals that were provided by the bran and the germ.

 

Because for all practical purposes, that's where your nutrients are. The endosperm, white flours, protein and starch, protein and starches that we need, but not without the fiber, the B vitamins, the vitamin E, the inositol, choline, the iron, the calcium, all those nutrients. And so, things kind of clipped along.

 

They went to the millers and said, you got to put the bran and germ back in because of all the sickness. But the millers were like yeah, no, that's not going to happen because they had found a very lucrative market for the byproducts, which is so often done now in the food industry. Byproducts of the milling process, the bran and germ were sold to the cattle feed industry, white flour to the people.

 

So they're like, yeah, we're not giving up that money-making market. So things progressed until 1948. And finally, health officials stepped in, the government stepped in and mandated, you've got to fix the flour, you've got to enrich it.

 

And that's where I discovered what a deceptive term that is for the 35 to 40, who knows really how many nutrients are lost when they take the bran and germ away. They only replaced it with four, three B vitamins and iron. And of course, B1, B2, B3 and iron.

 

Supposedly, this took care of the beriberi and pellagra. But I always have to stop here and say, how many nervous disorders do we have in our country today? How many, how much GI disturbances and bowel issues, digestive issues?

 

How about dementia, mental insanity? What about skin eruptions? I don't think it took care of it.

 

But anyway, they think it did. And then it would take 50 years, 1998, after watching the rising incidence of birth defects and understanding that it was the missing folate that is no longer in the flour, richest food source, or most common, most readily eaten food source of folate, bread. Who knew?

 

So, they mandated then that a fifth nutrient be added. And that was folic acid, which, let me stop there and say this, these are synthetically produced supplements, vitamins that are being added to your flour. And particularly the B vitamins, this can be very troublesome, because the B vitamins come as a family, they come as a group, they work together synergistically.

 

When you take one out of context from the other out of balance, it actually depletes you and causes you to have a greater need. We're seeing that now with folic acid and the development of MTHFR, the folate, you know, reductase gene mutation. So anyway, it's caused more problems than it's worth.

 

And I've always thought about the scripture Proverbs 14:12, I believe it says, "There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof is death." And we can certainly see that. You know, and if that were not enough, now, we've, we've taken all this away, we produce this beautiful white flour, but the residual oils cause it some yellowing.

 

So can't have yellowing of that flour. So, they began to choose to bleach the flour and a product called nitrogen trichloride was used for more than 25 years to bleach the flour. It was finally taken off the market because they discovered that this nitrogen trichloride caused seizures in dogs.

 

Are you ready for this? Hyperactivity.

 

Laura Dugger: (14:22 - 14:22) Hmm.

 

Sue Becker: (14:22 - 29:18) When I read that information, it was in 1991. That was the beginning of the scourge of ADD and hyperactivity we're now seeing in our children today. And I couldn't help but wonder, you know, when I read that information, there was one little boy in my son's music class, you know, and, but now, wow, it's pretty prevalent.

 

So then another bleaching agent is benzoyl peroxide. It's known to destroy B vitamins and vitamin E. And let me just tell you this, grains are one of the, especially wheat is one of the most nutrient dense food groups. Like I said, but it's the, one of the richest food sources of vitamin E and no amount of vitamin E has ever been put back in our enriched right white flour.

 

So, we lost that source, but now we're using a bleaching agent that's going to destroy it and B vitamins. And then potassium bromate is often used as a dough conditioner. It helps strengthen that gluten structure to help get a better rise in the bread. It's known to cause liver issues and thyroid issues.

 

And this is what we were consuming. So, wow. Yeah.

 

Talk about my mind being blown, my eyes being open. And then the rest of the journal was a brief discussion of the common diseases that plague Americans and showed why it was directly related, how it was directly related to our consumption of the processed white flour, lacking the nutrients and the fiber diseases like heart disease, cancer, diabetes, diverticulitis, even varicose veins, skin issues, low energy. I mean, it just went on and on.

 

And from my, with my background, this made absolute sense. I knew it was scientifically sound, but it was also, it was a Christian publication. It was biblically sound.

 

And what changed my life here was like I said, always read whole wheat flour, better whole wheat flour, better, but I was buying the stuff in the store and even whole wheat bread in the store. Didn't really see a lot of difference in it. But this introduced me to the idea of an in-home grain mill, buying grain and milling my own flour.

 

That was life changing. I was like, this is amazing. I can do this.

 

Wanted a mill. My husband actually bought me a mill for my birthday in 1991. The mill came into our home.

 

I milled flour. I made bread. I ate bread.

 

It was delicious. It wasn't gritty. It wasn't heavy.

 

It wasn't dense. And I tell everyone I pooped the next morning and it was like, what just happened to me? So that was my life-changing experience.

 

First, first day, you know, my bowel issues were corrected. I had lifelong issues with constipation, struggled with it. Knew I didn't want to take chemical accidents.

 

So tried to do more alternative solutions, find those and they worked if I did them, but they were, I tell people they were outside of my, your realm of daily eating. You had to do something special. And honestly, sometimes I think we look at alternative methods, you know, supplementation or treatment for ailments that are afflicting us.

 

And we're not getting, still not getting to the root of the problem. My problem was I was not eating enough fiber. The white bread, the white flour was constipating me.

 

So this was the only change I made. I tell everyone I've not been constipated since 1991. I know you wanted to hear that, but, but then I had five young children by this time and I, I homeschool my children.

 

We were active in church and baseball and music lessons and all the things, you know, we were busy. I had nursing baby and, and I, but I'm telling you, when I started just adding this bread to our already real food, we were eating. I noticed significant energy.

 

Like I said, constipation gone right away. Then I begin to notice first week. It didn't take months.

 

I was like, wow, I have more energy. My frequent headaches went away. Also with my bowels moving, my chronic constipation went away.

 

I lived on antihistamines before bread since bread. That's another thing I can stand here and tell you. I've not had an antihistamine or a decongestant of any kind since 1991.

 

That's pretty amazing. I had frequent migraines, not had one since we started the bread. So those were, I've noticed my sugar cravings went away because now I was getting the real carbohydrates that my body needed and it's sustaining energy.

 

And then my children, I just noticed they were they were, they would eat and they were satisfied. They love the bread. They love the muffins.

 

They love the pancakes. It was healthy food. I didn't have to coerce them to eat.

 

No more snotty noses, no more ear infections for them. And that we just became a much healthier family. And they, my kids didn't necessarily catch every bug that came around.

 

And if one of them did get sick, didn't necessarily mean that all of us got sick, which a big family, that's, that's pretty significant, you know? And so it was just, and the bread was delicious. When I read that information about whole grains and, and, you know, how bad white flour was, I was, I was thinking that this freshly milled flour was going to be just like the store-bought whole wheat flour I was buying in the store.

 

And you can probably already tell I'm a very passionate person. So, I read this information. I'm like, we're never eating white bread again.

 

We're never, white flour's never coming into our house again. And if we have to choke this bread down, we're doing this, you know? Well, we did not have to choke it down at all.

 

The muffins, the bread, the pancakes, the brownies, cookies, everything I made was absolutely delicious. It was filling and it was satisfying. A lot of people would say, you must spend all your time in the kitchen when all my kids were home.

 

I'm going, actually, no, we eat breakfast and everybody's satisfied. Nobody snacks. And even my kids begin to notice how other kids snack all the time.

 

Not my kids, they would eat and they wouldn't eat till the next meal. And so, it was just very, very satisfying. So, I began to share my bread with everybody, bake bread for other people, take it here, take it there.

 

The next thing I know, so be warned, if you ever start milling and you make bread for somebody, they're going to ask you to make bread for them. So, I did start making bread for other people. And the next thing I know, they're coming to me and saying, my cholesterol dropped 85 points and all I changed was this bread.

 

You know, I feel better. I have more energy. And the lady with the cholesterol, she, I continued to make bread for her for a while.

 

And I always laugh. One of the favorite things she liked that I made for her was cinnamon rolls with cream cheese icing. And she said, I ate one after every meal and my cholesterol dropped 85 points in just one month.

 

And I always laugh. I'm like a statin drug with all kinds of side effects, cinnamon roll with cream cheese icing, you know, and she said, it was her testimony. She goes, "I knew it was the bread. I know it is the bread because three doctors, three different medications, three years, nothing has changed. And this is the only change I made."

 

So, I started hearing this. And of course, she told all her friends, the next thing you know, everybody's wanting me to make this cholesterol lowering bread for them, you know, and I'll never forget. By this point, I had had my sixth child, still homeschooling, still doing laundry, still baseball, church, all the things. And here I was making bread for my family and then making bread for all these people coming to my door.

 

And I was spending all day every day making bread and for others and myself. And I just got really tired, to be honest with you. And I was making this bread and a thought came to my mind.

 

And I just looking back now, I know God put those words in my heart and in my mind. That day, I had also had a few people ask me, would I teach them how to make bread? And where could they get a grain mill?

 

So the idea came to me, met my husband in the driveway. And I said, when he came home from work, and I said, you know what, I don't think I'm supposed to make bread for the world. I think I'm supposed to teach the world to make bread for themselves.

 

And that was the beginning right there. We sat down on the porch swing and talked about what we would call it. And I said, I want to call it Bread Beckers.

 

That's, you know, our, it's funny, we didn't know that at the time. But Becker is a German name that means the baker. So, it is bread bakers.

 

And anyway, so and, and it's funny, because at that point in 1992, my world was four people, four people had asked me about where they could get a grain mill, and what I teach them to make bread. And today, we, well, we, started our business right then in our home, took a little while to, you know, get everything. And we outgrew our home by 1998, what my husband and I and my children could do.

 

I mean, it just grew from the testimonies of other people. I mean, just like that lady when and then you get hundreds of people sharing different stories and passing it on, people, people start noticing. So we incorporated with a longtime friend and partner in 1998, moved the business out of our home, we're currently in this lovely 10,000 square foot warehouse, we moved here in 1999.

 

We have a nice studio kitchen, this is where all my cooking classes take place that we can seat 100 people and regularly we fill up classes like that. We have a lot of online classes already for people to view on our YouTube channel. But and then a few years ago, it's back in 2009, we acquired another warehouse because we are passionate about providing God's people with grain.

 

That first week here, like I said, customer base of four. A week after starting our business, getting all the license and all that really hadn't started getting anything, God woke me up and said that he was raising up Bread Beckers to be like Joseph to supply his people with grain. And I wrote in my journal that morning that it would be a tremendous thing.

 

And it would take a few months, we invested in a lot of wheat, we took all of our savings, this was before we incorporated, it was just my husband and I and our family and bought some wheat, you know, and had spent all of our savings. Well, I got a little nervous. And I woke up that morning after unloading all this wheat and writing the checks and seeing the money go out of the savings account.

 

And I'm like, I don't think the electric company is going to take a bucket of wheat, you know, for payment. So this was my fear. And I felt like, you know, maybe I was being deceived, maybe we were being misled.

 

And I just cried out to the Lord that he would speak to me and confirm to me that this was what we were supposed to do. And this is how I do it. I just cry out to the Lord.

 

And then I just go on with my regular Bible reading, not looking for something I could have gone to the story of Joseph because he had already spoken that to me. But my verse for the day in one of my devotionals was Proverbs 11:26. And it says "Cursed is the man who holds back grain when the public needs it. But a blessing from God and man is upon the head of him who sells it."

 

My husband took that vision. I know you talk about, I was like, what? I could hardly wait for Brad to get up. My husband, Brad, you know, I had awakened early because I was stirring and all just anxious and fearful. And the enemy was just coming at me.

 

And when I shared that all with Brad that he was sleeping next to me, not knowing that I was in all this turmoil. And he just looked at me and he goes, "Sue, I can think of no other verse that God could have given you to answer and your question and to calm your fears." And so he took it to heart.

 

So, we now have a second warehouse. It's 13,000 square feet. We are probably one of the largest grain packaging facilities in the southeastern United States.

 

We have hundreds. I don't know how many we're growing everyday co-ops all over the United States. And we bring in two semi truckloads a week.

 

I mean, I'm sorry, a month, which is actually a little bit more than that. It's about 190,000 pounds of wheat. That's just wheat.

 

Package it down into these great food grade buckets, plastic buckets. And we package it with carbon dioxide gas. So it's perfectly storable.

 

We can guarantee that it's bug free. You know, the enemies of grain are moisture bugs and rodents. So that's why we really firmly believe in packaging it all in buckets.

 

And like I said, we have probably 180 co-ops now. I don't know. It's growing every day.

 

We ship wheat all over the country, grain and everything we sell. So it's been a real journey and just a real blessing. And then I started a ministry called Real Bread Outreach.

 

We clipped along locally, kind of providing grain and grain mills for those who truly can't afford it. But then in 2016, God called me to Haiti. I made 15 trips to Haiti.

 

We built a bakery there. We trained up another team at an orphanage and they were making bread every day. So right now, in Haiti, it's an intense situation, but the bakery is thriving, feeding about 1,200 school children a day.

 

And then the other, it's about 150 orphans. Then we went to Tanzania in 2021. We built a bakery there, started a feeding program.

 

We've helped start a bakery in Israel that is ministering to the Jewish people. We helped train a bakery in Uganda and we've sent mills to missionaries in Japan and the Philippines and Nigeria and Kenya, just all over. And I'll close this part with this.

 

A few years ago, a friend of mine just, she did, she remembered, she said, "Sue, do you remember when you said to Brad, I don't think I'm supposed to make bread for the world, but teach the world to make bread for themselves." And I'm going to tear up a little bit looking back now, like I said, four people, that was my world. Today, it truly is the world.

 

And not just because of the internet, but because of where God has called us through our ministry. And it's a real blessing. So, my encouragement to everyone is do the small thing.

 

You never know where God's going to take you in years to come and how it's going to bless the world.

 

Laura Dugger: (29:19 - 29:21) So I think that was a lot.

 

Sue Becker: (29:21 - 29:22) I know.

 

Laura Dugger: (29:23 - 32:39) It was beautiful. And it makes me think of the verse, do not despise small beginnings for the Lord delights to see the work begin. I'm paraphrasing, but I love how much it has blessed the world.

 

And I remember the first time I heard you, I was trying to just picture what is a mill, but you literally just turn it on and you pour the grain in and it comes out as flour. It's so easy. And so we purchased our own.

 

After our conversation, I get to stick in our loaves in the oven. They're still rising right now. And now a brief message from our sponsor.

 

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Thanks for your sponsorship. So going back to these ailments, I'm going to reference two other things that you said. First, this may be a little unrelated, but even thinking of feeding people around the world or feeding our children, you mentioned, you know, a lot of times if your kids were picky eaters, you'd say, okay, ditch the bread and just eat the meat.

 

But because it's so nourishing and nutritious and that Jesus has given us this as a grace gift, this bread, you can ditch the meat and eat just the bread and get so much nutritional value.

 

Sue Becker: (32:40 - 37:32) Yes, that and that's funny that you bring that up because, you know, one of the things over the years of studying is of the 44 to 46 absolutely essential nutrients needed by your body for health and to promote life. There's only four slightly deficient or missing in wheat, vitamin A, vitamin C. So, God gave us another kind of food.

 

Remember in Genesis chapter 1:29, he says, “I've given you plants that bear fruit with the seed in them.” So that's our fruits and vegetables. That's where we get our vitamin A, vitamin C.

 

Then we get our vitamin D from the sunshine if we get out there and get some. And then B12, of course, is low or is not found in any plant product. That's I mean, plant food.

 

So, you have to get that from your meat, your red meats and things like that. But that's and so learning that you're absolutely right. When my kids were growing up and the bread was my little toddler, how she'd tell me she was hungry, she would say, “I want a roll with honey.”

 

That was what she wanted to eat. And I would take the meat off the sandwich. And before bread, it was eat the meat.

 

After bread, it was just eat the bread, you know, because I knew just from that. And I started thinking about when Jesus said, “Man does not live by bread alone.” He was quoting the Old Testament, but by every word that proceeds forth from the mouth of God, he was reiterating that you think you're living because you have bread and all the biblical, you know, so many of the biblical feasts, Passover and First Fruits, Pentecost, they're around the barley harvest and the wheat harvest.

 

Grain was a big part of their life and of their sacrifices and all that. And he was saying, you think you're living just because you have bread. But I'm telling you, there's a spiritual life that you have to feed as well.

 

So, yeah, that was a fun time seeing the change of my perspective of just eat the bread. And, you know, some days, you know, breakfast was typically a pretty big meal for us. Sometimes it would just be pancakes, but a lot of times it would be eggs and freshly ground grits and bread of some sort, muffins.

 

And then lunch might be muffins and a smoothie because we really weren't that hungry from the bread at breakfast and then dinner. We eat normal. People think we're weird eaters.

 

But, you know, like I said, I grew up Southern. So, we do country fried steak. We do pot roast.

 

We do chicken. We do brown rice, mashed potatoes, green beans. You know, we do it all.

 

And you mentioned something that was funny. When I first started, when I would take bread places, people go, “Oh, my gosh, this coffee cake is so delicious or this bread is so delicious. Can I get your recipe?”

 

And I'd go, “Well, yeah, you can have my recipe. But you've got to understand, I mill my own flour.” Two things they would always respond with.

 

And the first one they would go, “You do what?” And I would go, “I mill my own flour.” The second one absolutely intrigued me for years and years until I did a study on what grain mills, the local millers mills, you know, waterwheels and gristmills and ox treading out the grain.

 

But they would always say to me, “Where do you live?” And I think they thought I must have had a barn and an ox or I lived by a river to have the gristmill to power my mill. Now, you can see my little mill behind me.

 

It just sits on my counter. And you're right. Turn it on, pour it in, comes out flour in a matter of seconds.

 

And I tell people, it's really not any slower or more tedious than taking your flour canister out of your cabinet. And I realize we've deviated in this day and time from even using flour and baking things ourselves when we can go to the store and buy it already baked. But it'll change your life.

 

I have never seen one dietary change bring so many significant across the board, broad spectrum health benefits to myself, my family, and so many people now that share their testimonies with me. It's just been amazing, just absolutely amazing. And, you know, I always, my husband always likes for me to say, you know, in the 25 years of raising my children on this bread, we only had to take them to the doctor twice for an illness.

 

Twice. And twice on antibiotics. They needed it.

 

There's a time and place. Twice to the doctor for an illness. In 25 years, there are people and families that go to the doctor more than that in a week.

 

So, when people say I can't afford it or I don't have time, I'm like, wow, I can just tell you the life-saving and money-saving advantages are, it's hard to describe. So yeah.

 

Laura Dugger: (37:33 - 38:05) Yeah. And like you said, it's an enjoyable process. It is.

 

But also, okay, referencing one other thing, just thinking about these ailments. You had quoted, I believe a doctor just saying about constipation that is, and I don't want to botch it, so I'd love to know if you remember this, that most Americans is that three out of five suffer from constipation or even chronic constipation. And that, was it the number one cause of breast cancer and prostate cancer?

 

Sue Becker: (38:05 - 39:29) Oh, wow. Yes. I'd almost forgotten that.

 

Yes. I was listening to a CD that someone shared with me, and it was by an oncologist. And I still remember, I would listen to things as we began to travel and share and teach, and I would listen to teaching.

 

And so, I had this cassette, if you can remember those or even know what those are. And I remember where I was, I was on I-10 headed to Jacksonville to a homeschool show. And this oncologist at the very end of her message, she said, “Toxins are stored in your, let's see, let me see. So, she said toxins are stored in your fatty tissue. In a woman, it's your breast. It's, and in a man, it's his prostate.”

 

And she said, “When toxins are not carried out of their, your body daily through bowel elimination, then these toxins get absorbed into the body and stored in your fat tissue.” And she said, “So a direct correlation between cancer and constipation is there.” And, and I was just like, what did she just say?

 

And that blew me away. I mean, that was not me saying it, this was an oncologist. And she's saying one of the leading issues is constipation.

 

Wow. Yeah, I'd almost forgotten about that.

 

Laura Dugger: (39:30 - 39:44) Well, and such a simple swap and getting to still enjoy these foods. But in addition to being healthier and the health benefits and making us feel better, how does this also potentially affect our weight?

 

Sue Becker: (39:45 - 42:33) Well, that's a good question, because we're all told that bread is bad, that bread will make you fat. And I totally agree. The bread that's in the store is devoid of nutrients.

 

It's devoid of fiber that fills you up. It's devoid of nutrients that satisfy fiber that fills you up. And it's heavily sweetened, sugared, you know, most of the breads we're eating are not just flour, water, yeast, salt. They're usually loaded with other things.

 

So, they're not satisfying. The fiber in real bread fills you up. So, like I said, you're not going to overeat, you're going to eat and you're going to be satisfied.

 

You know, I always tell the story when, when we were eating just bread from the store, I had five children, I would make sandwiches, they would, you know, cut them in half, I would make five sandwiches, they would, or I'd make the whole loaf, actually, they would fight over the last one. After bread, real bread that fills you up, I would make five sandwiches, cut them in half, and sometimes they would eat them all. And sometimes they wouldn't.

 

It was because it was filling, and it was satisfying. And that's something people need to understand. Also, the nutritional deficiency in the foods that we're eating in the store, especially our bread, they're leaving us malnourished, really.

 

Dr. Denmark, one of the oldest, well, the oldest practicing pediatrician in the country, she lived right here in Georgia. And she said, “We're the most undernourished, overfed people in the world.” We eat a lot because we're never satisfied, because the foods we're eating does not supply our body with the nutrients that we need.

 

And so, we're constantly craving. I don't think a lot of people don't understand what cravings are. You're craving food because you're needing a nutrient, you know.

 

And so, we find that we can eat and eat and eat, and, or not we, but Americans can overeat, and they do overeat because they're never satisfied. And so, real bread fills you up, real bread satisfies, it takes those sugar cravings away, which, you know, a lot of high calorie foods, they're loaded with sugars, and that's what we're craving a lot of times. I read something, women tend to crave sweets and chocolate, and men tend to crave salty.

 

And, but both, if we're craving, you know, processed foods, you know, you can sit down and eat the whole bag of cookies, where you make cookies from freshly milled flour, one, maybe two, if you go three, you kind of go, I really didn't need that one, you know. So, it's just filling, it's satisfying. We have so many people, testimonies of people saying they've lost, one lady said she lost over a hundred pounds, that was over the course of a while, you know, of a year or so, but she did it right.

 

She just started eating real food that nourishes and satisfies.

 

Laura Dugger: (42:34 - 44:21) I want to make sure that you're up to date with our latest news. We have a new website. You can visit thesavvysauce.com and see all of the latest updates.

 

You may remember Francie Heinrichson from episode 132, where we talked about pursuing our God-given dreams. She is the amazing businesswoman who has carefully designed a brand-new website for Savvy Sauce Charities, and we are thrilled with the final product, so I hope you check it out. There you're going to find all of our podcasts, now with show notes and transcriptions listed, a scrapbook of various previous guests, and an easy place to join our email list to receive monthly encouragement and questions to ask your loved ones, so that you can have your own practical chats for intentional living.

 

You will also be able to access our donation button or our mailing address for sending checks that are tax deductible, so that you can support the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and help us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. So, make sure you visit thesavvysauce.com.

 

And throughout the years, you've seen these different trends from Atkins to Paleo, and now a lot of times we're told gluten is the enemy, but I love how you say that wheat can actually be the cure, not the cause.

 

So, can you elaborate on that, and even why some people with gluten sensitivities may still be able to consume bread that was made with freshly milled grain?

 

Sue Becker: (44:21 - 1:01:23) Right, so, yeah, I think what people need to understand is what gluten actually is. And gluten's not really even in grains, it's just an easy way to verbalize it, I guess. So, gluten is the stretchy substance that forms from two proteins that are found uniquely in the wheat family of grains.

 

So, when you mill wheat into flour, and you hydrate it, wet it, mix it, you know, make a dough out of it, those two proteins, gliadin and glutamine, they form this stretchy substance called gluten. Well, it's very important in bread making that you have these two proteins, because when you make a yeast leavened bread, whether it's sourdough or commercial yeast today, those organisms feed on the carbohydrates both in the wheat and in your dough, and they produce carbon dioxide gas. So, that gluten, those stretchy strands of protein, those two proteins, they trap that carbon dioxide gas, and that's what enables the bread to rise.

 

So, it's unique to the wheat family of grain. It has always been there. It's why wheat is the king of bread making and always has been.

 

Who put those two proteins in the wheat family of grains? God did. And just so you know, wheat is not genetically modified, and it has not been altered to produce wheat that has a higher gluten content.

 

What determines the protein content of grain more than anything, which, what did I say gluten is? It's formed from two proteins. What determines the protein content in grain more than anything is rainfall during the growing season.

 

So, that's why here in the southeastern United States, we can't make yeast bread making wheat. We can't grow it because we have too much rainfall and it's too warm. So, we grow what's called soft wheat or pastry flour.

 

That's why southerners eat biscuits, because that's the kind of bread that we can make with the wheat grown here. The colder, drier climates in the breadbasket states of the country, they grow the hard bread making wheat. Now herein lies the problem.

 

When those steel rolling mills came on the scene and began to take the bran and germ out, what did they leave us with? Protein and starch. Those gluten forming proteins and starch are in that endosperm.

 

God never intended us to eat that white flour, those protein and starches without the vitamins, the minerals, the enzymes, the vitamin E that the bran and germ provide. So, therein lies a lot of the problem and that's what causes so many digestive issues is that we aren't getting the nutrients and the fiber that will keep our bowels clean and our digestive system moving the way it is supposed to. Now herein lies a bigger problem is that in the food industry and the American people's craving for fluffier bread.

 

In the food industry, they thought, okay, we can give you fluffier bread. If we take the wheat and we wash it until only all that is left is those two proteins, those gluten forming proteins. They get this stretchy substance and then they dry it and powder it and they add even more pure gluten forming proteins to that white bread.

 

So, now we have an even bigger problem and then and even in that whole grain bread, people want fluffy bread. They don't want, you know, coarser whole grain bread. So, check your ingredients.

 

That 100% whole grain bread that you might be already buying, third or fourth ingredient gonna be vital wheat gluten or gluten flour, whatever they call it and that is greatly upsetting the fiber to flour ratio and causing digestive issues. And then, you know, just the heavily consumption of that bread and you know, the commercially processed bread is a real problem. So, now what we have is people, you know, Americans consuming this bread.

 

Now, they have every symptom of something called celiac disease. Celiac disease is real. It is genetic.

 

I am learning. I used to say it's not reversible, but I am learning something that you might have the genes for celiac disease, but they can be turned on or turned off. So, perhaps what is happening is you might have the gene, but now it's being turned on by eating and consuming this high gluten, if you will, bread out of context, not the way God made it.

 

But then also what is also happening is so now we have people that have all the symptoms. Well, let me back up and just explain what celiac disease, celiac disease, true genetic celiac disease. You are born with these genes, the inability to break down that and metabolize gliadin.

 

That's one of those gluten forming proteins, which the whole wheat family has that. So, if you can't break it down, it's going to cause digestive issues, abdominal cramping. It's going to eventually as those that protein gets dumped into your large intestine, your bowel, it's going to lay down the villi.

 

You're going to have leaky gut. You're going to have all these issues. That is true genetic celiac disease, but it affects less than 1% of Americans have those genes and have it turned on for true genetic celiac disease.

 

So, what is being diagnosed today? Well, everybody eating the commercially processed high gluten packed or you know bread, they're developing the same symptoms, digestive issues, abdominal cramping, laying down the villi. So, they're being diagnosed with celiac disease when it a lot of times is not true genetic celiac disease and I'm not professing to be a medical professional.

 

I'm not giving anybody medical advice, but here's the good news that I do want to say to you. Non-genetic celiac disease is totally reversible. And the good news is people are finding some that have been diagnosed with celiac going gluten-free been gluten-free for 20 years.

 

They're finding they can eat the freshly milled flour because it has the right ratio and the good fiber and the good nutrients to heal their gut, cleanse their gut, and get their bowels moving, cleans out. So, bring that villi back to life and they're thriving. They're not just tolerating the bread.

 

They're thriving and finding reversal of many, many, many health issues. And another big issue too is people don't understand that for the most part digestion begins in your mouth, carbohydrate digestion. You chew your food, your saliva mixes with your food and there's an enzyme carbohydrate digesting enzyme called amylase.

 

Once you swallow that down in your stomach, your stomach is where protein digestion takes place. It must have an acid environment for those protein digestive enzymes to work. God knew that we're fearfully and wonderfully made.

 

He created cells in our stomach to produce acid brings the pH. If y'all know what pH is down to one very, very acidic could eat a hole in your stomach. But he also created these cells that produce mucus that lines our stomach and protects it from that high acid.

 

So, that's where protein digestion needs to take place. Here's the problem. What is one of the most commonly prescribed drugs in America? Prilosec, Nexium.

 

These are antacids. They're prescribing it for something called acid reflux, which is only compounding the problem. So, these antacids are doing exactly what the name of them describes.

 

They're alkalizing your stomach acid. So, what's that going to do to protein digestion? It's going to compromise it.

 

Huh? So, yeah, and the real cause of acid reflux is not too much stomach acid. It is actually too low stomach acid.

 

Our body's not getting the nutrients that needs to produce that stomach acid. Now, it's acid enough that when it comes back up in our esophagus it burns, but there's a little flap that God created right there at our stomach and our esophagus called the epiglottis. Do you know what's and it's supposed to close so that when that stomachs churning and doing its digestion, it doesn't back that acid doesn't back up into your esophagus, but it closes.

 

It's stimulated to close by the high acid in your stomach. Do you see what's happening here? So, we're being prescribed an antacid which now we don't necessarily get the burn, but there's all kinds of side effects.

 

We've compromised protein digestion, which what did we say gluten is protein. Also, do you know the technical term for an allergy a food allergy not a sensitivity or an intolerance the technical term for a food allergy is an adverse reaction to a protein component of your food. I have never seen so many food allergies as we see today.

 

It's very interesting. Some people are diagnosed with a gluten sensitivity. Well, of course, I think everybody is sensitive to the bread and the store.

 

Some people can tolerate a little bit better than others, but I know when I occasionally, you know, we go out to a party or an event and we usually avoid bread, but sometimes it's on everything. You know, I know I wake up the next morning and I'm like, I don't feel good. I have a stomachache.

 

So, I think everybody is sensitive to the bread in the store, but we have now hundreds of testimonies of people who thought they had to be gluten-free or say I have, you know, I haven't eaten bread in 20 years because made me sick. It did this it did that and they are finding they can eat the freshly milled flour because even wheat because it's the right proportions all the nutrients, you know, one of the amino acids that's found abundantly and wheat is glutamine Google it and you'll see a lot of health professionals will actually give you glutamine supplements to heal your gut and it's and it's in the bread. So, then part of the other problem that I see then when people think they're gluten-sensitive or have to be gluten-free now mind you if you truly are genetic celiac, you probably will not be able to eat wheat and I'm saying probably now because I'm learning some things that we can turn those genes off.

 

I don't know but if you truly are genetic celiac, but that is going to be a diagnosis that probably came when you were young you were going to always have had symptoms of these if you are now 20 or 30 and all of a sudden having these issues and you've been eating wheat all your life chances are you're not true genetic celiac. So, that's something you need to look at but people are finding they can eat the flour. They can eat the wheat and part of a real concern of mine is when you go gluten-free if you don't really need to I've been doing some studying as a food microbiologist gut microbiome has been a big topic.

 

I've shared I've taught way before it was trendy on, you know probiotics and all of that and fermented foods. I've been teaching it since 1992 but what happens that they're finding on these gluten-free diets. It's actually diminishing your good gut microbiome and encouraging the growth of more pathogenic making you more susceptible to C. diff, E. coli and other sickness causing organisms.

 

Then you're going to have those organisms are critical for breaking down food that gets dumped into the large intestine and encouraging digestion and enzymes that they create and all kinds of B vitamins and I could go on and on so that is being compromised the next thing, you know, you have allergies to eggs allergies to milk these very restrictive diets change that gut microbiome and they are causing a lot of gut health issues and allergy issues. I've talked to two people in the last few months one lady told to go gluten-free been gluten-free for years. She with tears in her eyes couple of weeks ago came down from Ohio hugged me in was came to our store just wanted to come to our store.

 

I happen to be here that day. She hugged me tears in her eyes and said I was down to eight foods that I could eat another lady in one of my classes came up and said I was down to seven foods that I could eat, you know, so It puts you on a treadmill that I don't think you want to be on when you start very restrictive diets. It's and not just gluten-free, but even you know, the carnivore and the keto and the paleo the heavy meat diets you need whole grains to break the fats down and cholesterol that those foods are providing and I'm a meat eater.

 

I mean, that's fine, but to exclude the most nutrient-dense food group God has given us in my mind is very dangerous. Let's see if we can get healing and reverse that I have a podcast and I do it's the bread stories now and I one of my favorites and I recommend it more often than any other is episode 66 sit with Sarah Valentine if anybody that I hear of that say they have to be gluten-free or their celiac, I would say she fit the bill for what surely seemed like a true genetic celiac. She was diagnosed in I think she was around 15 or I don't remember her age.

 

She was in high school. I think but she had always had trouble even as a little one and she was diagnosed with celiac and she said at the end of the podcast, she goes either God supernatural healed me or it was a misdiagnosis, but she had been gluten-free for 15 years. I believe it was and she told me she said and I she had a dairy allergy.

 

She couldn't eat dairy and she said, you know dairy I cheated on a little bit because it would just cause me a little discomfort. She goes I never cheated on gluten. Well, her brother and her mother heard about me and they Sarah was off at college and they got a mill and started milling because her brother's children had some health issues.

 

I think they have warts and my work stories are great. But anyway, bought a mill. She came home from school and they said Sari.

 

We want you to try this. You nope. Nope.

 

Nope. I'm I can't finally they talked her into trying a little bit should she ate it no issues at all and she told me on that podcast. She said I pooped the best I've ever pooped.

 

I have pooped in a long time the next morning. I slept the best. I had no headaches had no adverse reaction and she's become if any anyone My poster child for you know, reversing what appears to be celiac disease and being able to thrive on real bread and freshly milled wheat with the right balance of those protein starches nutrients fiber enzymes vitamin E all the things that bring healing and improve digestion get the bowels cleaned out and the gut healed.

 

So, yeah, it's something that I think excites me the most and I call it food freedom because what I'm seeing is people are in bondage and you know, when you can't eat this and you can't eat that and I understand there's some I have a granddaughter that has a dairy a true dairy allergy and I get it and those are real and you don't want to you know diminish those but we are seeing so many people that the bread in the store totally disrupts their system and causes all kinds of issues were seeing them not only like I said tolerate bread made from freshly milled flour, but bring healing bring healing and I that is so much our Lord that God knows what he's doing in his intentional design. He is all about healing and freedom versus of setting the captives free.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:01:38 - 1:01:40) Oh gosh, that was a big one. Yeah.

 

Sue Becker: (1:01:40 - 1:02:10) Yeah, but it also just one real practical thing as we're talking about gluten and fermentation with sourdough. This is a two-parter because if you feed it with white flour or add that I'm assuming that diminishes effects and if you feed it with fresh milled flour and then add that to bake it in bread, is that like double the benefits because you've got the fermentation and the grain or how does that work?

 

Sue Becker: (1:02:10 - 1:07:07) You know, I can't find any real definitive information, but let's back up and let's talk about sourdough with white flour there for a while when we were still traveling back in the probably early 2000s a lot of teaching coming out going even celiacs can eat, you know sourdough bread and they were making it with white flour and all of this. Is it better than the stuff you're buying in the store? Maybe but white flour is white flour and it's still process is still been stripped of all the vitamins the minerals and the fiber.

 

So, in my viewpoint, it is no better for you. If you're making it's kind of a waste of time if you're making sourdough bread with white flour. Now, if you start milling your own flour and making your sourdough with that, that's a whole other realm.

 

And like I said, I've done lots of studies most what I find when I read is that when we went to commercial yeast, we gave up flavor. So, I get that and that the bread is kind of flavorless now. So, I get that a little bit but as Americans and especially children, we like our fluffy bread, don't we?

 

Yeah, so, kids, you know, don't fret if you're making bread with commercial yeast. That's the way I make most of my bread. But as a microbiologist and knowing that when those lactic acid organisms feed on sugars, they produce B vitamins.

 

That's like yogurt. Why yogurt has B vitamins and maybe your milk, you know, just uncultured milk doesn't. So, I know that that increases the availability of those nutrients.

 

So, I think there is definitely some nutritional advantages that you take it to a whole new level. But what I say that commercial yeasted bread is not healthy and you can't do that that you only need to be doing sourdough, you know, I learned to make sourdough from white flour when I was first married long before milling came into our family by the time I had my children I had vacated that and then when I started milling I used commercial yeast and have for most of my years and we saw tremendous health benefits. So, I don't diminish one over the other but I certainly recognize that yeah, you might have some better nutrient bioavailability. I don't buy into the that you have to do the long fermentations to prevent the anti-nutrients like phytic acid from keeping you from absorbing minerals because I've had mineral checks and we've seen people testify that they had to have blood transfusions regularly because they were anemic all their life.

 

They start milling making their bread with commercial yeast, you know, and they're no longer anemic and we've seen countless people that and the same with me. I'm never low in my minerals. So, I don't buy into that.

 

But I say, you know, hey if you feel like you can digest sourdough bread better than commercial yeast leavened bread. I'm not going to argue with you go for it do it. But I also don't want to put a heavy burden on especially young moms that are like it's going to take me three days to make bread, you know, or it's you know, no, it doesn't have to so that's kind of my stance on it.

 

Do what works for your family sourdough is a rhythm. So, you got to kind of get into it about the time I get into it. We take a trip.

 

I go speak somewhere. I'm gone for four days and I'm like, okay, where am I with this? So, you know, that's just kind of my viewpoint and what I want to encourage people do what works for you what you want what your family likes.

 

I love I've got sourdough bread rising right now. There's times when I just like I just want you know, that chewy that nice flavorful bread and then there's other times where I want a soft loaf of bread for a good Southern tomato sandwich or my kids like peanut butter sandwiches, you know, so do what works do for your family do what your family is going to eat and love and you know, my husband has a philosophy if it doesn't taste good. It's not good for you.

 

So, if your family, your children, especially don't like the texture and flavor of sourdough some people do but if especially if your kids are used to the bread from the store, that's going to be a hard transition for them. And if they're not going to eat it and balk at it, then it's not going to bring them the health benefits that you're trying to do for your family. So, make what's culturally, you know, if you're a Mediterranean make your pita bread, but make it out of freshly ground whole grain.

 

I make biscuits out of freshly ground whole grain. I make my cakes and pie dough because that's culturally what we eat a lot of so that that's kind of my take on that.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:07:08 - 1:07:25) So good, Sue, and next week, I'd love to get into more of the details of how we actually can implement this into our daily lives. But if everybody's so inspired they want to take their first step before we come back together next week, where can we go to get started?

 

Sue Becker: (1:07:25 - 1:09:02) So our website is breadbeckers.com. So, it's got a lot of information. You can order online.

 

Of course, we have a brick-and-mortar store here in Woodstock, Georgia. We'd love to have you come. A lot of people are coming driving in because they've heard me speak online and heard podcasts and they're coming it and they'll walk in and go, “Oh my goodness.”

 

So we're a full-fledged kitchen store. We sell other things besides grain mills. We sell mixers, bread machines, raw honey, grains.

 

And then of course, go to https://www.google.com/search?q=breadbeckersco-op.com find a co-op in your area. If you don't find one in your area reach out to support@breadbeckers.com and see about starting one. We can do it.

 

And then of course, we're on Facebook, Bread Beckers, and Instagram and then my podcast Sue's Healthy Minutes. You can listen to that on any podcast platform or on our website. So, yeah, and then of course valuable reference tools, my book The Essential Home-Ground Flour Book, and I've got over a hundred recipes, a lot of nutritional information because I told him I can't write a book on flour milling without telling people why.

 

So, lots of good information on different grains and how-tos, how to do quick breads and leaven breads. And a lot of people think bread is a loaf of bread. It can be a muffin, a pancake.

 

It can be a pot of oatmeal or cream of wheat or grits or whatever. And then of course our famous recipe collection. This was the recipes were the ones I developed in 1991.

 

So yeah, so those, that's where they can find me.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:09:03 - 1:09:42) Love it. Well, and that's where we found your location. It's close to where my husband's parents live.

 

And so, we loved coming to your store. We had to try to travel from Georgia back to Illinois. So, I'll try and find a picture of what our vehicle looked like hundreds of pounds of grain of that.

 

Let's see on social media this week. I'll be looking for that. But Sue, I do have one more question for you because we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment.

 

And so is my final question for you today. What is your savvy sauce?

 

Sue Becker: (1:09:43 - 1:11:46) So my savvy sauce would be keep it simple. It's so easy to get overwhelmed when we're looking for answers, especially to help. So, there's so much information out there, especially in the realm of healthy eating.

 

But as a young mom, you know, I had five young children. Like I said, when I got started, I started with four basic recipes. I found a basic yeast bread recipe that would work for cinnamon rolls, donuts, hamburger buns, regular buns, you know, dinner rolls, sandwich bread, whatever.

 

I had a muffin recipe. I had a pancake recipe and I had a coffee cake recipe. Those three are quick breads.

 

Those you stir up and you bake right away. So, I have to, I just want to encourage people to keep it simple. I will never forget this young mom years ago when I used to speak at the homeschool conferences, this young mom raised her hand at the end of my talk and she goes, “I just feel so overwhelmed. I'm being told I have to mill my own flour and make sourdough bread and milk goats and have chickens. I've got a two-year-old and a three-year-old.” And first of all, I was like, go away. Don't even be homeschooling a two-year-old and three-year-old. Just live life.

 

But I just looked at her. I was like, no, just start with the bread. You know, Jesus compared Himself to bread and I studied the seven “I am’s” of Jesus. That's in the book of John.

 

I won't go through each one of them. But the very first He says, “I am the real bread of life. He who comes to me shall be satisfied.”

 

You want to change your fit, your spiritual health. You start with Jesus. Well, I take that analogy over to our physical health.

 

You want to start and improve your physical health, start with the real bread that He compared Himself to. Then your next thing, you know, you might have the energy to milk goats and have chickens and do the next thing. And I've just never seen one dietary change make such drastic noticeable difference in my health and the health of my family.

 

Just start there and keep it simple.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:11:47 - 1:12:09) Wow, Sue, you are truly just a gift and you're impacting families and generations around the world through this truth that really does set us free. So I'm incredibly grateful for you and I'm grateful for your passion and your energy and your generosity on this subject. So, thank you so much for being my guest today.

 

Sue Becker: (1:12:10 - 1:12:16) Thank you so much for having me. It is always a real honor to have an opportunity to share what God has shown me.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:12:17 - 1:15:31) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Discerning What to Do Next with Katie Reid (Episode 278)

"So above all, guard the affections of your heart, for they affect all that you are. Pay attention to the welfare of your innermost being, for from there flows the wellspring of life.” Proverbs 4:23 TPT

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Sue Neihouser Team

 

Katie M. Reid is an author, speaker, podcast host, and songwriter who inspires others to live out their purpose with tenacity, wisdom and grace at katiemreid.com. She is the author of Made Like Martha: Good News for the Woman Who Gets Things Done, A Very Bavarian Christmas novel (which is becoming a movie) and the co-creator of The Digital Peace Pact and the Check Your Selfie Story-Coloring Book. Katie is also the co-host of The Martha + Mary Show podcast. As the Inspiration Doula, Katie coaches creatives, helping them bring life to their projects. Her album, Echoes of My Heart, the Daughter song, and The Very Bavarian Christmas musical soundtrack can be accessed here and on other music streaming platforms. Katie delights in her husband and five children. Musicals, iced tea, and cut-to-the-chase conversations are a few of her favorite things.

 

Questions and Topics Discussed:

1. As a woman who excels in getting things done, what tips can you share as it relates to getting things done around our home?

2. What are some of the changes you've made to your lifestyle that have led to the greatest results?

3. What habits and rhythms do you have in place to support your personal development and spiritual growth?

 

Other Episodes Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce During Episode:

183 Leading Your Family, Marriage, and Self with Justin Maust

Patreon 47: Business, Leadership, and Legacy with Justin Maust 

 

Other Episode Mentioned During Episode:

Mary & Martha Show: Benefits of Chiropractic Care with Dr. Lianne Coombe

 

Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce:

81 Sacred Rest with Doctor, Author, and Speaker, Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith

150 Brain Science and Spiritual Abundance with Ken Baugh

256 Gut Health, Allergies, Inflammation and Proactive Solutions with Emily Macleod-Wolfe

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:09)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:29) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

Thank you to the Sue Neihouser Team for sponsoring this episode.

 

If you're looking to buy or sell a home this season, make sure you reach out to Sue at 309-229-8831. Sue would love to walk alongside you as you unlock new doors.

 

Welcome to the final episode of The Savvy Sauce for 2025. We look so forward to meeting you back here after today's episode on Monday, January 5th.

 

But for today, my guest is Katie Reid. She is wildly creative and also completely grounded in her faith.

 

She's an author, speaker, former podcaster, and coach for creatives. She's going to share on a variety of topics today, ranging from health to discerning God's leading for what's next in each of our lives. Here's our chat.

 

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Katie.

 

Katie Reid: (1:30 - 1:33) Thank you so much for having me, Laura. This is such a treat.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:33 - 1:45) Oh, it's a delight to get a chat with you. And I want to go back. I want to hear the origins of your writing and podcasting journey and how it's led to the work that you get to do today.

 

Katie Reid: (1:46 - 3:00) Well, in about 2014, I had a bucket list. And on that bucket list, there were things like make a quilt and sing the national anthem in a professional sporting event and bake an apple pie and writing a book was on it. And so, Laura, I've always been a very driven and purposeful person.

 

So, it felt like it was the time to write a book. And I had no idea how hard it was going to be and that it would accidentally turn into a career that I forgot to ask my husband if I could start. But it was when I started writing and I had been writing, you know, just as a kid here and there.

 

But it turned into what I did as a career. And it was not necessarily easy. But God has refined me through the process.

 

And so, my first book Made Like Martha came out in 2018. And then I have dabbled in fiction books as well. And then I have a Bible study that is out now.

 

God, What Do I Do? based on Judges one through five. So, I kind of write a little bit of everything. And it's been a wild and wonderful journey.

 

Laura Dugger: (3:01 - 3:07) Wild and wonderful for sure. Going back to that bucket list, have the other ones also become realities as well?

 

Katie Reid: (3:08 - 3:28) You know, I have sang the national anthem at some not  professional sporting events, but, you know, high school events and that kind of thing at my college. I have made an apple pie. My mom is a quilter and I just decided she can do that.

 

I kind of removed that off the list. But now I can check off, write a book.

 

Laura Dugger: (3:28 - 3:53) That's incredible, which is a huge undertaking. So, thank you for your labor of love. And even going back, I love how you've identified that you kind of relate more to the Martha personality rather than the Mary personality.

 

So, can you define what that means and share some of the benefits and the drawbacks of each personality leaning?

 

Katie Reid: (3:54 - 6:41) Sure. So, in the Bible, in Luke 10:38-42, we meet two sisters, Martha and Mary, and they had a brother, Lazarus, as well, and they were friends of Jesus. And Martha it seems like your firstborn type A, you know, to do list kind of gal.

 

And Mary was like a disciple of Jesus sitting at his feet, maybe more relationally driven. And so, when I read this story that has, you know, Martha gets a lot of flack because a lot of people like, “Oh, we need to all be like Mary.” And so, this story, I always wanted it to go differently.

 

Martha goes to Jesus. She's worried and distracted by all her preparations. She's housing or hosting Jesus and his disciples at her home.

 

And Mary's sitting there listening to Jesus teaching. And so, Martha goes to Jesus and says in the Katy paraphrase, “Hey, Jesus, I'm here doing this all by myself. Tell Mary to get off her duff and help me.”

 

And I so, Laura, wanted Jesus to say, “Martha, you are right. Mary, get in there and help your sister.” But that's not what he did.

 

And so, I want to take a closer look at the story and see what did God really say? Because I think over time, we've probably read books or heard different sermons that paints Martha in a certain light. And I wanted to see for myself, you know, have we added things to this that aren't really there?

 

And what I discovered is, you know, Jesus made us. We know this from Psalm 139 on purpose and for a purpose and intricately. And so, it was no mistake that Martha was made to do and to get things done.

 

But she got a little out of whack kind of with her heart posture, as I say, you know, kind of trying to strive and earn versus working from a place of love. She was working for love and she already had that love right there in Jesus in her home. And so, that's what Made Like Martha is about.

 

But I see how, you know, a lot of us are a blend of both of these women, you know, task oriented, relational oriented. But I think we lean more one way or the other. But the world needs all kinds of people in it.

 

And so, I think sometimes we view it as a competition when actually it's just different. But we can never go wrong with sitting at Jesus's feet. But also, we can be at peace and settled on the inside in our relationship with the Lord, even when our hands are busy.

 

Because if we just all sit, things will not get done. And, you know, we are both busy moms, Laura. And, you know, there's just there's a to do list every day, isn't there?

 

Laura Dugger: (6:41 - 7:00) There is. But you are someone who really does excel at getting those things done. Like you said, it's in your wiring from the Lord.

 

So, what tips can you share with all of us? And maybe starting with how does that specifically look for getting things done around our home?

 

Katie Reid: (7:01 - 8:47) Yes, I think there's a resource I have on my website that we can share in the show notes, and it's called the “All Done Calendar.” And I don't know about you, Laura, but my to do list can have like 25 things on it, which is just very unrealistic. Right.

 

I am not going to get 25 things done in a day. And so, I created this all done calendar and it's a blank calendar. It's got some pretty designs on it.

 

And what you do is you write down a few things each day that you actually got done. And cleaning half of the bathroom can totally count. You don't even have to do the whole thing.

But it's a way to celebrate what you've already done instead of just being fixated on all there's left to do. And so, that's something that helps me is to be like, OK, I did not get the 25 things done. But what with the Lord's help did I get done?

 

And sometimes I might have had these really lofty goals, but maybe instead I had a meaningful conversation with my team. Or maybe instead I left the dishes and sat down and watched a movie with my family and likely fell asleep 10 minutes in because I sat down. But I think we can just feel, especially in this Pinterest world and comparison with social media, we can feel like we're behind all the time.

 

And so, this all done calendar is just a really practical way to just look back over the month and be like, look what I did do. And sure, there could be lots of things left, but it's a way to just remind ourselves of what we have in that gratitude. I call it a lavish list instead of a lack list.

 

You know, instead of counting all the things you don't have, give thanks for all the things you do.

 

Laura Dugger: (8:48 - 9:05) Wow. And that gratitude really does change everything when our mindset is changed. Do you have any other tips that you use then for meal planning or logistics?

 

Because you can introduce us to your family as well. You've got quite a few kids with your husband.

 

Katie Reid: (9:05 - 11:47) We do. We have five kids. The oldest is almost 21. She's a girl. Our youngest is a girl also, and she's almost nine. And then we have three boys in the middle, 18, 16, and 12.

 

And so, we are a lively and a loud family. I think for me with meal planning, I actually do enjoy cooking and my daughter had a lot of culinary training. So, I know some women are just like, it happens every day and I don't like it.

 

But what I often do with our busy schedule is on Saturday or maybe Sunday afternoon, I like to cook things in bulk. So, maybe I'll make a soup and some taco meat and put pulled pork in the crock pot so that we can kind of eat off that. And during the week, I kind of batch cook.

 

So, I don't feel like I'm doing it all the time. And we also from a young age have equipped our kids to make their food. I remember we had someone stay with us, Laura, and they were like almost appalled.

 

They're like, “I mean, these young kids just got up and made their own food. Where was the mom?” And my husband said, “That's actually what we've trained them to do.”

 

I mean, they were getting like cereal. The other day, the baby of the family is almost nine and we do probably too much for her as one tends to do with their youngest child. And so, I equipped her and empowered her.

 

I said, “You know, Lark, you can make your own eggs.” And so, sure enough, she got a stool. I just reminded her to spray the pan and turn off the oven.

 

And she made herself, you know, eggs with bacon bits in it. And you can see that sense of pride. She was a little hesitant at first.

 

But I believe in working smarter, not harder. And so, we do divvy up, you know, chores around the house. In fact, I dare not say this too loudly.

 

But when I started writing, my husband said to our kids who were quite a lot younger at the time, “Guess what? Mom's not doing the dishes anymore. So, you guys are each going to have a night or two. And you're going to do those because we want her to be faithful to what God has also asked her to do. And you guys need to learn how to do this.” And so, Laura, when they first started loading the dishwasher, I had to fold my hands because they were not doing it in the way I would have envisioned.

 

But it was still getting it done. So, I have this little mantra. If someone else can do it with at least 75 percent, you know, effectiveness, then that should be good enough.

 

Because I think sometimes as women, we kind of want it my way or the highway. But then we wear ourselves out because we're trying to control or manage everything. And sometimes 75 percent is good enough.

 

Laura Dugger: (11:48 - 12:21) Katie, you sound like a wonderful mother. I think that's such a gift to your kids. Their studies show doing chores and being more self-sufficient, being trained that way is beneficial to them across the board.

 

So, I applaud you. Well done. But another one of your sweet spots that you seem to get after is healthy living.

 

And so, I'd love to know, what are some of your most beneficial lifestyle changes that you've implemented in your family? And now they've led to the greatest results.

 

Katie Reid: (12:22 - 15:12) Yeah, so, one of the things we do as a family is we go to the chiropractor. And I know that some people have mixed feelings about that, but we love our chiropractor. And, you know, I'll probably get the statistics, you know, not quite right.

I'm a creative brain versus a very logical brain. But I do know there are many health benefits to chiropractic care. It boosts your immune system.

 

I can for me personally, some of the benefits is I used to get vertigo sometimes, which is a terrible thing if you've never had it, where the room is like spinning and I'd have to just lay in bed, which is not a great thing, you know, for our busy lifestyle. And so, I have less vertigo. I can move my head back and forth freely and lots of other things.

 

But one thing that was interesting, and we did interview my chiropractor on the Martha & Mary Show on the podcast, is there's so many things that can be benefits to it. And at my age, I'm almost 48. I can see 50 from a distance.

 

And my friends and I, Laura, are talking about our bodies so much. We are now like our moms would do. And even going to the bathroom more regularly can be a benefit of chiropractic care or, you know, your cramps not being as bad, all that.

 

So, that's one of the things we have done. This year, we are trying to walk a lot more. So, my husband and I and our two youngest children, we have this little half hour route that we do.

And we were even doing it in the middle of winter. And then as things have gotten busier, that's fallen a little bit by the wayside, but just fresh air. We have some great conversations.

 

And the other thing, too, is I don't know if you're like this, Laura, but during COVID, we put on a lot of weight and we didn't realize it. We could see it in other people, but we went to the doctor and I was shocked by what I weighed. And I went to a naturopath and I just said, “Can you help me?”

 

And so, I thought I was taking good care of myself, Laura. But looking back, I surely was not. And a lot of it was what I was eating.

 

I was not drinking enough water. So, anyway, that helped to just the education of that our food has such an impact. And so, really it you know, we are not like health freaks by any means, but trying to have more vegetables, some healthy options.

 

I had no idea what a big deal protein was. I just didn't know, you know, as kids who ate SpaghettiOs and, you know, mac and cheese growing up in the 80s. There just wasn't as much out there about, you know, that connection with what you're putting in your body and how you're feeling.

 

Laura Dugger: (15:13 - 18:23) That's such a good point. I love hearing these habits and I very much enjoyed that episode that you did with your chiropractor. We'll have to link to that as well in the show notes.

 

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Katie, you're such a go-getter and in the midst of homeschooling and writing this book, you also still pursue personal development and spiritual growth. So, do you have any systems or rhythms in place to support that growth?

 

Katie Reid: (18:24 - 21:43) Yeah, I think a couple of them. I often want to talk to people, talk about the Mary and Martha event. Some people are that way with Bible study and prayer. There are some who just love to study the Bible. There’re others who lead with prayer. I've been the Bible study girl. I love to study, you know, as a teacher. Maybe that's just my thing. But prayer was something that I felt like I was always getting like a D minus in. And it's not that I never would, Laura, but, you know, I just have a friend, Lee, who co-hosts The Martha & Mary Show with me, and she is a prayer, a pray-er. And so, one of the things I did was I know accountability is key in developing healthy practices, whether that's physically or spiritually or emotionally.

 

And so, we started a mom's prayer group at our church that meets most Fridays throughout the year because I knew, I mean, surely I wasn't going to just pray on Fridays. But I knew if I had that group and I was helping lead it and show up that that would be a discipline that would get into my life. And it really has, but it just felt very daunting.

 

Another tip my friend gave me just with incorporating more prayer is to have like a trigger. So, every time you open a door to pray or every time you interact with water, let it serve as a reminder to pray. And again, I just need that kind of accountability in my life. I can get distracted easily.

 

And so, that was just another thing that helped me to just have that in the forefront of my mind. And I also feel like having teen and young adult children, you will just start praying much more naturally because you realize that your influence is shifting. You're more of a coach and a support than you are kind of that direct supervisor. And so, God gave me this phrase of like, "Prayer is the way sometimes we got to parenting, but prayer is also what we need to get through parenting."

 

And so, I have been doing much more prayer lately, but I just encourage the listeners, whether it's Bible study or prayer, which are essential to our spiritual growth, grab a friend and ask them, you know, you could text each other in the mornings, like, "Hey, I'm praying for you about this. Or will you pray about this?" But it is when we link arms, we have more effectiveness, I think, because we're not just trying to do it on our own. And I feel like in our culture, especially with all the pressures of, you know, social media and all of that, we try to be all things to our family, like, you know, grow organic vegetables and sew our kids' clothes and homeschool and you fill in the blank. But yet it's so much more accessible done in community. For example, I love batch cooking. So, maybe I could make an extra lasagna for someone and then I don't love to fold laundry, but maybe my friend comes over and we fold laundry together. I just think we can be so isolated. And we're missing out on sharing our strengths with others and them with us. And I just think family life is best done in community, if at all possible.

 

Laura Dugger: (21:44 - 22:15) That's so wise and so practical. I love that. Even the tip of when you interact with water to pray. That's really helpful. And speaking of spiritual growth, I do want to highlight some parts of your amazing book, which, as you said, it's entitled, God, What Do I Do? So, I want to just dive into a couple of the sections, beginning with, "God, what do I do with what you've given me?" So, Katie, can you just expound on that topic?

 

Katie Reid: (22:15 - 23:38) Yeah, for sure. So, we've all been given time, talents, treasures. You've probably heard those three Ts before. And at the end of my life, Laura, I want to be able to stand before the Lord and by His grace say that I was a faithful steward with what He has entrusted me. And I think we often are told, particularly as women, to keep everything in balance. And I don't know about you, Laura, but that just feels like pressure to me. Like, surely I'm going to drop one of these plates I'm spinning.

And so, I like to think about it as being a faithful steward with what's right in front of me, because that feels more manageable. And yes, we still need the Lord's help to do that. But right now, we're doing this interview. So, I want to be a faithful steward of that. And then next, I'm going to go hang out with my college roommates and we're going to have a little reunion. And I want to be faithful with that. But I think we can get really overwhelmed when we're just trying to do everything perfectly. And in the study, we talk about faithfully stewarding the people, position, and place that God has put you in or that's before you. And I think that happens one decision at a time. And again, it feels more manageable when we think about it like that.

 

Laura Dugger: (23:39 - 23:48) I love that. I even love the questions that you ask about those specifics. Do you want to share those three questions?

 

Katie Reid: (23:49 - 26:27) Yeah. So, we talk about, you know, what people have you been entrusted with? What position have you been entrusted with? And what place have you been entrusted with? And I think that helps us recognize our purpose as well, like in the current season that we're in. But going back to the time, talents and treasures, you know, time, I feel like right now is such a precious commodity. And we talk about, you know, at church, like tithing your finances. But the idea I've heard people explain, what does it look like to tithe your time?

 

And I can cram so many things into the day that my husband and I are walking through this process of me having more margin in my life, more white space. And that's a part of stewarding our time. It doesn't mean we have to burn out and just run ragged. You know, we see this pattern in Jesus' life. He would minister and then He would retreat and recharge and then He'd minister. And I think there's some unhealth that we see in our culture and even in my own home with sometimes of just the unrealistic expectations I have.

 

And life happens. We could have a perfectly executed plan. But then this is a true story. The dog ate chocolate and we have to run for an emergency vet visit. Or I don't know about you, Laura, but you know, sometimes my kids want to have deep conversations at a time that is very inconvenient. But we want to take advantage of those times and take that opportunity.

 

And so, just going before the Lord and saying, "God, you have given me time. You've given me talents. You've given me treasures. And I want to faithfully steward them. Show me how to move forward in a way that honors you." And I think we have to be careful sometimes. I think we need to put some blinders on because what you are called to might be totally different than what your sister is called to or what I'm called to. And that we need to listen and have the abiding relationship with the Lord because we need to faithfully steward what He's asked us to do, not what He's asked someone else to do. And so, I love that word, too. What God has "entrusted" to us, again, could look a lot of different ways. But He doesn't require perfection. That's why Jesus came, because we couldn't do it. And He's with us in it. And we want to move forward with Him as we manage the people and the place and the position that He's entrusted to us.

 

Laura Dugger: (26:27 - 27:14) Oh, that's so good. And just to dig a little deeper then, too, I feel like I'm in a similar place where I sense the Lord asking me this week, asking me to ask Him, "What pace do you want me to be living at? What pace is healthy and sustainable? And what changes do I need to make?" So, I feel like I'm just on the beginning of this journey. But if you and your husband have already been diving in to margin, which is a word that I feel like I could answer with, and maybe slowing down a little bit, how do you do that? You're a creative as well, and you've got all these ideas and these good things that you want to go after. Do you have any practical parameters or pieces of discernment in place to know how to create margin as well?

 

Katie Reid: (27:15 - 29:12) Yeah, I think one thing that I am still learning is that “yes" has a cost to it, right? Now, of course, if Jesus asked us to do something, we want to say yes, regardless of the cost. But let's say someone asked me if I would write an article for a website and I'm launching these books. That sounds like a great idea. But Laura, sometimes I forget what that yes will mean. That's going to be at least three hours of time. And so, to almost look at the ask and associate them with time. And so, while that's a great thing, I also have kids that are in sports right now, and I don't want to miss those sports. Or could I use an article I've used before? Do they want original content? And so, I think with our yes’ and no’s, just thinking about, again, unless it's an obedience thing where the Lord has just made it so clear.

 

The other thing my husband often says to me is, "OK, Katie, that is a great opportunity. But what is going to come off of your plate to make room for that?" Where I can just keep heaping it on and it's spilling on a potluck when you overfill your plate and it's all spilling out and just making a mess. And so, that's another thing of like, "OK, what will come off?" I also run things by my husband or a close friend to say I have this opportunity for this. "What do you think?" Because sometimes we have those blind spots where we can't see what that might mean in the future. So, kind of a board of advisors, if you will, people who know you well know your personality. And just because it's a good idea doesn't mean it's a bad idea. And that can be so hard, especially if we're good at something. Sometimes we think it's an automatic yes, but we have to evaluate the season that we are in as well.

 

Laura Dugger: (29:13 - 30:26) Did you know that this podcast is 100% listener supported? We love producing free content that's available to everyone around the world with our monthly newsletters when you sign up for our email list and with our weekly episodes. We pray that this has been a benefit to you, that if any episode has ever impacted you, what we ask is that you will partner with us now and generously and prayerfully give financially before the end of the year.

 

There’re multiple ways to do this online at TheSavvySauce.com. You can donate through Stripe or PayPal or Venmo with just a simple click, or you can send snail mail to us at Savvy Sauce Charities, P.O. Box 101, Roanoke, Illinois, 61561. We hope you choose to support us today.

 

The word discernment comes to mind with your book. It's a lot of discernment, a lot of these questions as we're turning to God. So, can you share any of the parts of the section that you wrote about, "God, What Do I Do Next?"

 

Katie Reid: (30:27 - 34:11) Absolutely. You know, I'm a pretty decisive person, but I know a lot of people are not, and they can be overwhelmed. I mean, even at the grocery store, if we're trying to pick out cereal or Band-Aids even, there are so many options that it can just become overwhelming. We're inundated by information. And so, I think when we are not sure what to do next, there are things we actually can decide, even if we don't specifically know what to do about a situation. And that's a lot of what is found in God, What Do I Do?.

 

And we follow the Israelites as they're entering the Promised Land. They made some not great choices sometimes, and they made some good choices sometimes. But the idea of their leader had died and they needed to know what to do next. And one of the first things they do, we see in Judges 1:1, is they inquire of the Lord. They go to the Lord and ask Him what they're supposed to do. And Laura, we can never go wrong doing that.

 

I have a dear friend who told me one time, "Katie, I don't like praying out loud because I just have really simple prayers. They are not eloquent." And I reassured her, you know what? SOS prayers totally count. So, if you find yourself in a situation where you do not know what to do next: "Lord, help me. Lord, I need you." You cannot go wrong praying those prayers. And there's actually, the Bible study goes through six decisions we can make, even if we don't know specifically what to do. And the first one in the introductory lesson is the decision to remember.

The more kids I've had and the older I've gotten, I get a little more forgetful. I used to be so good at Memory, that game. And now it's like, I don't know, I'm going to pick the same ones every time. We can be forgetful. But when we recount God's faithfulness in the Bible and also what He's done in our own lives, it can help us make more clear-headed decisions. We have this little box in our home that we decorated back in the scrapbooking days. And inside it, we have a couple pictures and objects that remind us of things God has done for us in the past. One of the things He had asked us to do when we did not have much money, we were getting ready to move across the country and we had two vehicles. And we could have really used the money from the vehicle, one of our vehicles, but the Lord put on both my heart and my husband's heart to give away a vehicle.

 

And so many people, even Christian believers close to us, Laura, were like, "I don't know, that doesn't seem very wise." But we knew God's voice. We knew what He was asking and it was such a blessing in it. And so, we have a picture of that car, and we have that in the box. And so, I have not done a great job of pulling the box out a lot, especially with our younger kids. But it's just kind of those memorial stones of "Remember how God did this."

 

I remember one time we were having car difficulties, and I told the family, I said, "You know, wouldn't it be great if someone at church just handed us an envelope with the money we need to repair this vehicle?" And my kids kind of rolled their eyes. "Oh, there's mom and her big faith again." And Laura, wouldn't you know it, someone came up to my husband and said, "We just want to gift you this." And it was like $200 and it was exactly what we needed. And so, it's like stories like that to remember God has been faithful in the past. He will continue to be faithful, even if I don't know specifically what to do about a situation. He will be with me in it.

 

Laura Dugger: (34:12 - 34:42) Wow, that is incredible. And those spiritual markers build confidence and faith in us with our own journey. But like you said, passing them along to the next generation, that is huge and sharing these stories of God's faithfulness. And this is just such a small sample of your book, because I just want to make sure we highlight one other piece, but you share this insight about one part of the question, "God, what do I do to encourage those around me?"

 

Katie Reid: (34:43 - 36:25) Yes. So, we look in Judges 4, we met a judge Deborah and there was a military commander named Barak. And so, Deborah was a prophetess and judge, and she goes to Barak and reminds him of what God has already told him. Isn't that a good friend? And she said, "Hey, hasn't God said," and then reminds him. And you know what I love about this is we see this collaboration for the Kingdom.

 

And maybe it's more of an exhortation than an encouragement. But then later on in Judges 5, there's the song that Deborah and Barak sing. And part of the song is they are calling out those that helped them in battle. And, you know, it's an encouragement. They also call out those who didn't help in a different kind of call out way. But sometimes it bolsters our faith.

 

If someone else speaks into our life and says, "I see this in you." And a lot of times we think that encouragement, but we don't give voice to it. And I can look back over my life when people have taken the time to encourage me. It's like we cling to those words to keep going. Something we do at our church is the last Sunday of the month we have testimony time. And it is so encouraging to hear what God is doing in other people's lives. And in our own struggles, it can really bolster our faith to keep holding on and to celebrate what He's doing in them. So, I think giving credit to God for what He's done in testimony can really help encourage those around us as well.

 

Laura Dugger: (36:26 - 37:12) Wow, that is awesome. I love that you do that at your church. Such a practical way to live out so much of the Bible that talks about sharing His story, sharing His faithfulness, and that we overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb, which is already taken care of, and the word of our testimony. That's so powerful. And Katie, you're just fascinating and multifaceted. And there's a piece of your bio that I just love. You say that you're an "Inspiration Doula". So, I want to hear some of your favorite ways, whether it's questions or stories or bits of wisdom, to share so that you can encourage creatives, which is hopefully all of us because we're created in our Creator God's image.

 

Katie Reid: (37:14 - 40:11) You know, Laura, I love to see what God, how He has wired different people and encouraged them to share that gift with the world. I love holding the ladder for people so they can climb higher and do more. And sometimes I think on this crazy journey of podcasting and writing and speaking, sometimes I get the sense that God is allowing me to walk through these doors so that I can turn around and help someone else do it but even go further and do more than I have.

 

Nothing brings me more joy than seeing someone using their giftings. For example, we had a writing retreat recently that really turned into a spiritual renewal retreat. And one of my friends, she is very content to stay home with her kids. She is pretty introverted, but God has given her these talents that she is using more and more. For example, she directed a skit that's, you know, at our church for Easter and did such a great job. And she has written this book that's kind of like a Little House on the Prairie-esque book. And she was working on it at the writing retreat. And, you know, she's around these other women that are speaking all over the country and doing all these things. And so, some way she's like, "What am I doing here?"

 

And we reassured her she was right where she should be. And so, this fall she's going to teach this class using her book with homeschool students. And then they're going to write their own books. And Laura, I just think it's so fun to see her using what God has placed in her hands in her sphere of influence. And so, I love to—a lot of times people just need that nudge and a little bit of cheerleading to take those next brave steps. I also sometimes they just need to see somebody else doing it to realize that they can do it too.

 

And again, it can look so many different ways from having people into your home. I have a friend named Cherry and she started a ministry called "Welcome to the Table" where once a month she welcomes women into her home. They share a meal and it has just exploded because people are hungry literally and figuratively for that kind of community. So, a lot of times my coaching looks like encouragement, looks like some practical steps that they can take. A lot of times creatives are not finishers. And I have this weird blend of creativity and administration.

 

And I just love to help people kind of have a roadmap for what would it look like to get it done. And so many people do not set deadlines, Laura. They're like, "Yes, I'm going to write that book. Or yes, I'm going to start that event. Or yes, I'm going to start a book club." But then they don't give themselves a deadline. So, even just that little tip of like tell somebody else your deadline can really help get the wheels turning.

 

Laura Dugger: (40:11 - 40:41) That's good. Again, such practical advice. And Katie, you are such a natural encourager. There's even a joy or lightheartedness in your voice and a warmth. And I love how you come alongside others and help develop them and see their dreams fulfilled. So, I love that generosity of spirit. But I also want to hear what else is coming next for you, including, will you tell us about this novel that's becoming a movie?

 

Katie Reid: (40:42 - 42:40) Yes. So, interestingly enough, when I launched my first book, Made Like Martha came out in 2018. And then I had this idea for a book about Deborah from Judges. Well, wouldn't you know, here we are seven years later and that book is finally coming out. So, in the meantime, as I was encountering a lot of closed doors about this particular book, I was like, "Well, I'm a creative and I'm a writer. And if I can't write nonfiction, I guess I'll try fiction."

 

And so, I wrote a Hallmark-like story called A Very Bavarian Christmas. We self-published it. It came out in 2020. And funny that God knew that people actually needed something lighthearted with a happy ending because I wrote it in 2019. And then when it came out, people were hunkered down and just needed that kind of feel good type of clean rom-com. And so, I call this the little book that could, Laura, because literally I got an email from Carlos from California and that it went to my spam folder. And it surely sounded like spam, but what Carlos said is, "Our team has read your book and we would like to purchase the movie rights." And so, sometime in the future, it will likely be on UP TV. There's going to be a movie based on my novel.

 

And then the sequel, A Very Bavarian Summer, has recently come out. July 5th was its release date. And it's just been such a fun journey. So, a publisher ended up picking up the series. And I was just as surprised as anyone. I was hoping it would be a movie. I kind of wrote it like that. And again, there was many voices saying, "Yeah, you know, you're not a fiction writer. So, let's kind of see how it goes." But I just knew that God had given me this story and that anything is possible. And it wasn't a guarantee. It would all turn out how I thought it would. But it's been a very fun and exciting journey for sure.

 

Laura Dugger: (42:41 - 42:52) That's incredible. So excited for you. I have to keep us posted for when we can see that. But where else can we go after this conversation to continue learning more from you?

 

Katie Reid: (42:53 - 43:51) Well, the best place is at my website, katiemreid.com. And Reid is R-E-I-D. And if you subscribe, listeners, to my website, I send out a good newsletter, I call it, once a month with all the things. I'm also on Instagram @katiem_reid. And then my books are available, Made Like Martha, God, What Do I Do?, A Very Bavarian Christmas, and A Very Bavarian Summer. And so, we're also pitching another Bible study. So, hopefully in a year or so there will be some more. But I love to resource people. My desire, whether I am writing nonfiction or fiction, is to see captives set free. Because Jesus has set me free. And I long for others to live that abundant life with Jesus. And so, that thread is throughout each resource we offer. And I would love to connect with listeners over my website or online.

 

Laura Dugger: (43:52 - 44:17) I'll make sure to link to all of that in the show notes. I love that, setting the captives free, joining that good work that Jesus is doing. And Katie, you already know that we're called The Savvy Sauce. Because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight or discernment. So, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Katie Reid: (44:18 - 45:12) Well, I am bad at small talk. I like to go deep fast. And so, I feel like my savvy sauce is asking meaningful questions. Whether that be of my spouse or my kids. And really getting to know their heart and what makes them tick. We call them quality questions.

 

And I think people are willing to open up when they feel safe, when they feel seen, and when they feel known. And so, I love to just kind of dive in deep. In fact, my husband and I will joke if we're out on a double date or something. I'll just say, "Listen, I'm bad at small talk. So, can we talk about fill in the blank?" And so, I think that's one of my savvy sauces. It might annoy some people, I guess. But I think it's really fun to watch someone talk about something they're passionate about. And just get to know them better.

 

Laura Dugger: (45:13 - 45:52) Amen to that. I love that so much. I do not think it's obnoxious or annoying or anything. I actually very much appreciate when we first met through Justin and Jenny Moss. And Justin's been a repeat guest, so I'll link to his episodes as well. But we met at their daughter's wedding. And I was instantly drawn to you. And it was near the end of the night, so we didn't get to spend as much time together as I hoped. But you have that magnetic personality. And I love even the gifts of your decisiveness. And the way that you're able to articulate all of your wisdom and share it with us. It was such a blessing. So, thank you for being my guest today.

 

Katie Reid: (45:53 - 46:04) Laura, thank you so much. And I love what you're doing with The Savvy Sauce podcast. And you are just shining and in your element. And it's so evident. And I just appreciate you.

 

 

Laura Dugger: (46:04 – 49:49) Thank you, Katie.

One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

How Launching My Husband into Outer Space Changed the Way I Live on Earth: Special Patreon Release with Stacey Morgan

“Therefore see that you walk carefully [living life with honor, purpose, and courage; shunning those who tolerate and enable evil], not as the unwise, but as wise [sensible, intelligent, discerning people], making the very most of your time [on earth, recognizing and taking advantage of each opportunity and using it with wisdom and diligence], because the days are [filled with] evil.”

Ephesians 5:15-16 AMP

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

1. How did God meet you in your experience of army life to reveal your choice of hope vs. fear?

2. What have you learned about community, both before and after your experience of launching your husband into space?

3. For all of us, how can we rediscover our fun side when we’ve been trapped in survival mode for too long?

 

Stacey Morgan is always ready with a funny or thoughtful story from her own life; whether it be holding down the home front during military deployments, working for the Smithsonian, skydiving, or blasting  her husband into outer space. Stacey is on staff with MOPS International, a nonprofit focused on the unique needs of mothers around the world. She and her husband, Army colonel and NASA astronaut Drew Morgan, have four children.

 

Connect with Stacey on Instagram or through her website.

 

Other Savvy Sauce Episodes Related to Friendship:

Friendship with Drew Hunter

Reflecting Jesus in Our Relationships with Rach Kincaid

Nurturing Friendships with Jackie Coleman

Art of Friendship with Kim Wier

 

Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and The Savvy Sauce Charities (and donate online here)

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

 

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:09)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 2:54) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. I want to say a huge thank you to today's sponsors for this episode, Chick-fil-A East Peoria and Savvy Sauce Charities.

 

Are you interested in a free college education for you or someone you know? Stay tuned for details coming later in this episode from today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. You can also visit their website today at https://www.chick-fil-a.com/locations/il/east-peoria.

 

I'm so excited to share a special Patreon re-release episode. And if you've been with The Savvy Sauce for a while, you know that we used to make some money by having people sign up for Patreon and as a reward, they would get access to special episodes. Now we have done away with that as we've transitioned to becoming a nonprofit, and we want to make all of these episodes available to you, so we re-release a few every year.

 

What I'd love to ask is, as we're approaching the end of year because we've taken out that revenue stream, would you consider financially supporting Savvy Sauce Charities?

 

There are two simple ways. First, if you want to mail us a check, that saves us all of the processing fees, and you can make that out to Savvy Sauce Charities and mail it to P.O. Box 101, Roanoke, Illinois 61561. Also, if you want to go online, visit thesavvysauce.com and you can type in different words to the search button. You could type in “donate” or “support” and it should take you to the place where there's a button to click and put in your credit card information and give that way. We would be so grateful for any amount, and we love our partnership with you.

 

Here's our chat.

 

Stacey Morgan is my guest today, and you may have heard her name in the news over the past few years. She has documented her story in her debut book, The Astronaut's Wife: How Launching My Husband into Outer Space Changed the Way I Live on Earth. And now she's going to share more about that season and all the lessons God taught her about making the most of her one incredible life, and she's going to inspire each of us to do the same.

 

Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Stacey.

 

Stacey Morgan: (2:55 - 2:58) I am so excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

 

Laura Dugger: (2:58 - 3:07) Well, it is truly my pleasure. And will you just start by giving us a little bit more context for our time together and just share a few things about yourself?

 

Stacey Morgan: (3:08 - 4:49) Sure. Well, hi, my name is Stacey. I currently live in Texas.

 

I have four kids. I'm married to a guy named Drew who has kind of an unusual job. I grew up in a small town just outside of Boston and was kind of a scholar-athlete growing up interested in a lot of different things but always involved in church and youth group. And that really served me well when I went off to college.

 

The first college I went to, West Point. And actually, I'll tell you in a minute, but that is where I eventually met my now husband, Drew.

 

We got married after I graduated from undergrad. He's a little bit older than me and he is an Army officer. And so, we have moved all over the country. We've lived on both coasts and had a number of kinds of unusual situations just, you know, kind of typical for a military family living all over the place.

 

I've had a lot of crazy jobs. I think mainly I have an unusual story because I'm really quick to say yes to things, which sometimes, you know, it's a double-edged sword. Sometimes you say yes and you realize, “I should have thought through that a little bit more.” But really it's been quite an adventure because we have had the opportunity to live in a lot of different places, experience a lot of different things.

 

And we ended up here in 2013. We can kind of get into that if you want, but we ended up down here in Texas with my husband, who is still an Army officer, but he became a NASA astronaut. And so, that totally changed the direction of our lives and kind of changing all the plans we had for what we were supposed to be doing in the military and ending up down here at Johnson Space Center. Then, him eventually launching into outer space.

 

Laura Dugger: (4:49 - 5:01) Wow, there are so many points to unpack, but let's back it up to what you had mentioned about West Point. So, will you just elaborate and tell us more about how you and Drew met and fell in love?

 

Stacey Morgan: (5:01 - 7:21) Sure. So, we were both cadets at West Point when we met. He was a little bit older than me, but we met through Officers' Christian Fellowship, which is a Christian club that is very popular on military bases, both at the academies but in big Army and other services as well when you get out.

 

It's a, you know, it's like small groups, typical for what most people would find comfortable in kind of church community. And so, we met there and we just kind of clicked, you know.

 

I would say it's funny looking back, we were not the type of people I think we would have thought we would marry. He was far more serious than I am. I'm a little bit more, I’m the one to more kind of like walk the fine line, but we work together really well.

 

We've always been a great team. That's always been a real theme in our marriage, you know, that we are a team. And, you know, when he proposed after I graduated from undergrad, he kind of said, “I promise you a life of adventure,” which at the time sounded wonderful and adorable.

 

Of course, it has come back to haunt me several times when he has been, you know, come up with some crazy plan and when I hesitate he's like, “I promised you adventure.” And I'm like, “Now that's unfair. I did not know when you said adventure back in 2000 that you meant all these crazy things like going to space or all these different deployments and all this kind of stuff like that.”

 

So, we now have four kids. We've been married this summer will be 22 years. And, you know, it hasn't been without its challenges like any marriage and certainly any marriage under stress because of stressful situations, whether that's military deployments, whether that's space travel or just kind of life and parenting. And as you kind of grow up together and get to know each other and the world changes around you, we've certainly had ups and downs, but we are a team.

 

And I think God has really honored that and it's been really helpful for us when we've had those sticky seasons where you just feel like, “Man, we are just not connecting or kind of jiving the way we would want,” to actually say to each other that we are on the same team and that has been really helpful.

 

Laura Dugger: (7:22 - 7:40) The part of your story that involves space travel is one that most of us will never be able to relate to experientially, but it's still extraordinary. So, can you walk us through the detailed events leading up to 9:28 p.m. on July 20th, 2019?

 

Stacey Morgan: (7:42 - 15:28) Sure. So, I should back it up one big step behind that just to give everybody a little context. So, in 2012, we were kind of living our lives. We had always been deep into the Army Special Operations community. We love that. In order to live and kind of thrive in that environment you have to be all in, and we were all in.

 

And one day my husband came home and he was uncharacteristically giddy and he said, “You're not gonna believe this huge news. NASA is opening up the application window for a new class of astronauts.”

 

And I thought, “Why are you telling me this? This has no bearing whatsoever on our lives. We are on this path and that is a completely different path.”

 

And he said, “Well, I want to apply.”

 

And I thought to myself, “Well, I wanted to be a ballerina at one point in life, but that ship sailed. Like who doesn't say they always wanted to be an astronaut? Like this seems like a childhood fantasy.”

 

But he said, “No, I just want to apply. Like don't worry, all of our plans are gonna stay the same. They've never selected an Army physician before. I just, you know, I want to...” You know, the joke was that you'll always be a NASA applicant, right? And that'll be great. We'll laugh about it at family Christmases and stuff.

 

Except he kept making it through every gate. And so, in 2013 we got the call that completely took our life off of one set of train tracks and put it on another. At that time, we were currently stationed just outside of Washington DC at Fort Belvoir. We were supposed to be literally the next week moving to Germany. And that's how close these changes kind of came up on themselves. And so, we had to unravel everything for Germany and move to Houston, Texas, because that's where Johnson Space Center is.

 

And so, he began his training in 2013. I started my journey in learning a whole new culture, a whole new way of doing life. I'd never lived in a place that was at least not near a military base or within a military community. Didn't quite recognize at the time how much that shared sense of community had made things easier in terms of connecting with people before that and when I didn't have it.

 

So, it was probably our rockiest transition for me personally that I'd ever had in terms of friendships and getting connected. That's a big part of my story because I think friendship struggles are so common for adult women. It's just something that nobody really teaches us how to do and so a lot of women are very lonely.

 

But fast forward, he trained for several years until it was eventually his turn to fly. And in 2019, the only way to get to the International Space Station was to fly on a Russian Soyuz rocket. So, some people are very confused because they think, “Well, every space movie I've ever watched is taking place in Florida, right? Whether that's Apollo 13 or Armageddon or whatever. Why didn't he launch from Florida?”

 

Well, between 2011 and 2020, the Space Shuttle program had ended. SpaceX Crew Dragon had not yet started launching from Florida again. So, for about a 10-year period, the only way to get to and from the International Space Station was to ride a Russian rocket.

 

So, that's what NASA did. They went into partnership with the Russians, which of course makes things very interesting given today's kind of current political climate and all the world events. But that meant when it was Drew's turn to launch, we as a family had to travel to Kazakhstan, which is a country that I could not spell before 2019.

 

And so, if you don't know where that is, don't feel bad. I didn't either. I had to look it up. It's a former Soviet Republic really kind of in between Russia and Afghanistan. So, it is in the middle of nowhere. And when the Soviets were building their space program in the 1950s and 60s, they built their secret space city there in Kazakhstan. That's where they started their space program and they have kind of kept it unchanged and they continue to launch their rockets from there today.

 

It was a whole kind of world travel and cultural experience to take my four kids to Kazakhstan, which is a completely different cultural experience for really what came down to a very stressful, very emotional moment really waiting for that launch. So, unlike Florida, which you know when you watch on television, it's colorful, there's a lot of people, a lot of spectators, big people remember from the shuttle days big countdown clock, a loudspeaker kind of telling everybody what's going on... that's not how it is in Kazakhstan.

 

So, about 30 minutes before the launch, the kids and I were brought to this viewing area. And by viewing area I would say big field. It's not... there was kind of some grandstands area far at the other end of the field, but that's where all the space tourists stand and the press and all that kind of stuff and we didn't want to be near them. So, our escort brought us down to the end, the other end of the field, and it's just dark and it's quiet and there's no announcements. There's no countdown clock. It's just looking at your watch or your phone there just kind of in the dark and you just know that that Russian ground crew is going to launch that rocket at exactly 9:28 p.m. Not a minute earlier, not a minute later.

 

And so, standing there in the dark holding my kids' hands, and we can see the rocket in the distance only about a mile away, which by rocket launch standards is very close. Knowing that in a minute or 30 seconds or 10 seconds as it gets closer, it's either going to be one of the best days of your life, super exciting, super proud moment, or it's going to be the worst day of your life, and you could become a widow.

 

And as much as it's easy to kind of get complacent because incidents are so rare, but we all can remember any number of space disasters that have happened. Columbia, Challenger, those are very real. And with my time down here at Johnson Space Center, you come to learn those names and you meet those families and you meet those widows and widowers and you realize that space travel is dangerous. You know, at the end of the day my husband was in a little tiny capsule on top of a rocket full of highly explosive fuel. So, it's very scary.

 

And in that moment standing there thinking, “In 10 seconds my life is going to change no matter what happens.” Even if this goes perfectly, what happens next? I don't really know. It's kind of like having a baby. You can read all about it and assume things will be the way they're going to be, but until you're in it and then it happens, you don't really know how it's gonna go.

 

And so, it was a really overwhelmingly emotional moment because you think this could go sideways. And also, by the way, the world is watching live with me. So, if something goes wrong, I'm not able to process this privately. I will be experiencing it in real time with the rest of the world.

 

But even if it goes perfectly, what happens next? Like what does it look like to live on earth with a spouse in space and single parent for nine plus months while their other parent is in space? And you really don't know and it's scary to think like, “Gosh, what if something happens?” You know, he can't like come home early. Can't just like a business trip jump on a plane or a train and get home early. There's no coming back early. So, whatever happens, I'm on my own for better or worse. I'm on my own and I hope I have the endurance and the support system and everything I'm gonna need in order to be successful in this nine months.

 

Laura Dugger: (15:28 - 15:47) And my heart is pounding a little bit faster just as I hear you describe this. And I'd love to get back to your story, but first just to pause and wonder with that mixture of this adventure right in front of you and then your experience of army life, how did God meet you in all of that to reveal your choice of you're able to choose hope or fear?

 

Stacey Morgan: (15:47 - 22:32) Right. So, you know, when you take the time to step back and think, sometimes you don't see these patterns in your life until you kind of start putting them down on paper. And it was interesting for me to see how God had prepared me for that moment with other moments, especially related to military deployments in the past. Because certainly experiencing a rocket launch and all that fear and kind of this moment of where is my hope found in this moment, that was a varsity level moment.

 

But I'm so thankful that about ten years earlier God really started to prepare me for that moment with some other big moments. Like when my husband deployed for the first time.

 

I'll never forget, it was the height of the War on Terror. So, we were living in a military community which was amazing and a lot of my friends' husbands were also serving in the same military units or similar military units and they were deploying. The tempo was high so that meant, you know, six months deployed or longer, coming home for short amounts of time and then deploying again. Lots of action specifically in Afghanistan and Iraq at the time.

 

And so, lots of fatalities, lots of injuries, lots of grief, and for spouses a lot of fear because we knew what they were doing was very dangerous. And so, for me and my friends we kind of had this unspoken rule which I think a lot of people can understand which was, “Let's just not talk about this scariest thing because somehow talking about it makes it seem more possible.”

 

And as crazy as that is to say, people get that. You know, there's a lot of things we don't talk about because it's just too scary to think about. And so, for us the scariest thing in our life at that time was the fear that our husbands would not come home, that they would be killed in action. And that felt very real because we were going to memorial services, we were visiting people in the hospital, we were turning on the news and seeing what was going on in the world. And there was often communication blackouts because we knew that they were doing things that were very dangerous, very secretive.

 

And so, at the time I happily did what everybody else was doing which was, “Let's just not talk about it. Let's just kind of live life managing.” We felt like we were managing this fear, I think that's what I would have said at the time.

 

But then one day my friend Lisa, who's an amazing friend and she's always like two steps ahead of me on the wisdom scale, we were having coffee on her front porch and she turned to me and she said, “I've been thinking a lot about what life would be like if our husbands were killed.”

 

And this was like a bomb drop. I mean because we just were not supposed to be talking about this. Like here the rest of us had been avoiding all morbid thoughts about what could possibly happen with our husband and instead she had like turned and looked it straight in the eye.

 

And I was shocked. And so, I kind of sat up straighter and I said, “What do you mean?”

 

And she said, “Well, I've been thinking about it and it's not that, you know, life would certainly be hard and doesn't mean we wouldn't need counseling or our kids wouldn't need support, but life would still go on even if that happened. Life would still go on. Life would still be full of good things and God would provide and bring people around us to support us and I've just been thinking about that.”

 

And I was stunned. I was absolutely stunned because while the rest of us were too afraid to face that fear, in looking at it she kind of exposed it for what it was, which was certainly real and an absolute possibility that that could happen. But when she started walking down the path of like, “Okay, if this happened then what would happen?” You have to decide, “Do I believe God would really be with me or not? Do I believe His promises are true that He will be with me on good days and bad days and that He will draw people to me who will love me and support me? And have I plugged myself into friends and a faith community that would be there for me if that happened?”

 

And it was a game changer. That was probably one of, at the time, the biggest life-changing conversations I'd ever had as an adult because it really did shift how I viewed feeling afraid about things like that. And so, I had several opportunities... Drew deployed several times and then certainly doesn't take combat deployments to feel afraid like that. I know I have felt it before when my daughter was in the NICU, you know, and I had to leave her in the NICU and go home at night. I know I have felt it during this pandemic several times. I know I'm gonna feel it when I drop my oldest off at college this summer. You know, this moment where it just life feels very scary mainly because of the unknowns that come next and the fact that you have no control over those.

 

And so, that rocket launch moment was, you know, I felt like God was really prompting me in that moment to say, “Hey, if this rocket explodes like what will you do with that? Do you still trust me that I'm here with you and that I will still bring people to you and love you? Like is your support, is your foundation and your hope truly found in me or is it found in this rocket launch going successfully? Because it might not, and then what does that mean for you?”

 

And so, it really was this choice of am I gonna choose to live a life of fear, which is our default because if you do not choose something else we will always live a life dictated by fear of something. It's exhausting to live like that because once you conquer one fear another one's gonna pop up. Then they come in bunches and they just start layering on top of each other. Honestly it can lead to despair because there's plenty of things in the world to be afraid of and new ones just pop up every day.

 

So instead, I felt like God was offering me a new way of living and it really felt tangible in that moment of that rocket launch which is, “Hey, I hope that you will choose to find your hope in me. Just me. The one unchanging thing in this world that will be unchanging regardless of what happens with this rocket launch in 10 seconds. But if it goes well or if it goes poorly I am unchanging. You can rely on me. I will be with you in the best and the worst of times. And even if the rocket launch goes successfully and whatever happens in the next nine months, I'm with you there as well. So, you don't need to be afraid because I'm here with you. You can have hope that I will enable you to do what must be done no matter what happens tomorrow.”

 

Laura Dugger: (22:32 - 22:49) I'm so grateful that you chose hope and you chose faith. And then after all of that excitement and that adrenaline experienced on launch day, what did your life look like in the months to follow?

 

Stacey Morgan: (22:49 - 26:47) Yeah, it wasn't easy. You know I joke that those nine months really were like it was like a master class in all these little lessons I've learned throughout the years, but I'd never had to put them into practice at this level and all at the same time.

 

So, things like being honest about that I needed help. That, you know, there are times in the past where I have certainly wanted people to know or think that I had it all together and that I could do it all by myself especially, you know, I think every mom feels that way.

 

Certainly, military spouses, we take a lot of pride and feel like I'm doing this on my own.

 

And I realize now that I had certain seasons I have made life a lot harder for myself because I somehow thought that there was like an extra trophy if I finish the race by myself. I said that it was like, spoiler, there's no trophy. And also, I was just making it harder for myself.

 

And so, this season I could not fake it. Like past seasons I could fake it. This one I could not fake it. I had two teenagers, two tweens, a lot of hormones and then prepubescent and puberty things flying around. Just a lot of scheduling, a lot of driving, like just life. And then just the stress of living with someone who, you know, a spouse who was living in space and the stress of what does that do to your marriage, to parenting and, you know, parent-child relationships. Just every single piece of running a house, of parenting all the things, was solely on my shoulders and that's a big weight. And it was tough. It was tough.

 

So, I could not fake it. I had to ask for help. I had to be willing to ask for it and receive it, which are two different skill sets I found. It's sometimes you get good at one and not the other. I had to get really willing to be vulnerable as my friends and say things like, “I'm really lonely.” Can you know, it's like being honest. Like everything's not just, “Oh, this is so exciting. Oh, isn't it so great? Aren't we just so proud of them?” Yes, but at the same time sometimes I'm lonely. Sometimes I'm struggling.

 

Sometimes in my stress I would overly focus on trying to control my home life or what was happening within my own house and become not as pleasant of a person to live with because I was just trying to kind of regain some control in what felt like a little bit of a chaotic world and then you become not your best self and you know that. And so, I had to learn how to kind of get out of that survival mode and still have fun even when life is hard. And really just kind of accept that life isn't one thing or the other. You can be in a hard season and it still have good things in it. Life can be full of opportunities and challenges and one does not negate the other. And when you try to live your life by one narrative or the other, not only are you faking it but you make life harder than it needs to be and you kind of block other people out of it.

 

So, there was a lot of learning going on in there but we really all came down to that first decision of how am I gonna live my life in this season? Am I gonna live it fearfully, reactionary, hair trigger, you know, just stress all the time because I'm afraid of what comes next. I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to handle it? Or am I gonna live a life of hope, which is of course like not wishes and dreams but it is anticipation that God will be with me no matter what comes down the pipeline. And sometimes that's divine comfort that is hard to explain but you just feel it. Sometimes it's people he draws to your life who literally will sit on the couch with you and just like hold your hand or give you a hug that moment you need it. Sometimes it's someone offering to carpool or take your kid out driving because they're trying to get their driver's license, you know?

 

But that's really the biggest thing for me. I talked about it in chapter one of the book because that's the foundation that really all those other lessons were built on.

 

Laura Dugger: (26:47 - 27:26) And I think also with your book, it was helpful to hear little insights into what it looked like for your marriage. And it was even interesting when you said it's really important for astronauts to have forms of entertainment and that you were so committed to being involved in Drew's life and that you two still found ways to stay connected. I just think that has to be encouraging to any married couples listening right now because you clearly had a big barrier to overcome. But what were some of those ways that the two of you tried as best as you could in that season to stay intimately connected to one another's lives?

 

Stacey Morgan: (27:26 - 31:19) Yeah, it's not easy. And I think there's kind of this fallacy that is kind of dangerous for especially young married I think to believe which is like in every season of your life you're gonna feel amazingly connected to your spouse and you're gonna constantly be growing in your relationship. And sometimes that's not true. Like sometimes one person has a job that takes them away from home or someone is sick or there are other issues going on in your life where the connection is just not as strong not because you don't want it to be but because the circumstances you find yourself in don't allow for that.

 

And certainly, while my husband was in space that was a lot of challenges to feeling connected. I mean there's good communication but there's a difference between like quality and quantity, right? So, he could call me on the phone every day but because of the time differences and his schedule the only time he could call me was between 4:00 and 5:00 p.m. my time, which as any person knows and with any kids, is like the worst time of the day. Like everything's happening, the wheels are coming off, homework, pickups, dinner prep, like all that kind of stuff was crazy.

 

So, needless to say, I was not able to sit down and have like a heartfelt drawn-out conversation. And then kids hate talking on the phone so he wasn't really talking to them during the day. I'm like, you know, my eight-year-old isn't gonna send him an email. So, you know, there wasn't like a lot of quality or quantity conversation with the kids which of course puts a little stress on your marriage too because you worry about that.

 

And then we have one video chat a month and you want it to be fun. You want it to kind of be good for the kids as well as him but it's a very, you know, it's one hour to share between five people and so that's not a lot of time. And so, the reality is that for that season there was a lot of, I would say, relationship treading water. And you're, you know, the goal is just not to let things go downhill, which you can easily do in life when you and your spouse are experiencing the same event but from different points of view. And that's what we were doing. You know, we were sharing the mission but from two vastly different points of view.

 

And so, you do your best. But the difference is I think you have to in order to kind of come out on the other end better, you have to have a kind of a mutual commitment that, “Hey, we're going to... we are eventually going to come back together on this. We can't change the circumstances. I can't make the time difference different. I can't give you more time on the phone. I can't... there's things I just cannot change. But we are committed as a team to doing the best we can right now and when this circumstance changes, in this case when he came home, we're gonna kind of back up again and do some story sharing and reconnect about some things that we just didn't have the opportunity to in the past.”

 

And so, it's a little bit kind of like two steps forward one step back but eventually you still come out ahead if you are committed to trying to come back together and share those experiences in one way or another. Where you run into kind of danger is if people start experiencing two different things and then they never come back together so the gap just kind of keeps widening and widening. And then you hear when people say like, “Yeah, I woke up and I felt like I was living a different life than the person who was sleeping next to me.”

 

And so, reminding us to ourselves that we are a team even though we were experiencing the same thing. I didn't know a lot about a lot of the things he was doing. He didn't know a lot of stories about how things were for me. And so, it's okay to tell them later if you don't have the ability to tell them in the moment as long as you both have the goodwill and you prioritize coming back together eventually.

 

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It sounds like you really leaned into your friendships. So, what would you say you've learned about community both before and after your experience of launching Drew into space?

 

Stacey Morgan: (34:26 - 38:07) Well, I tell you what, I realized that as an adult often a lot of us don't really know how to do friendship well. And our culture is so, it so values independence that we often convince ourselves that if we tell our friends or our community that we need help or just kind of show our true heart for how important it is to us, that somehow that's gonna be kind of like devalued or we're gonna feel weak. And I realized like, “Man, I wasted a lot of years trying to be tougher than I really am.” And I wish I could go back and change that because in this season, mainly because I had no choice. And so, God really used this opportunity to show me like, “Hey, I'm gonna kind of like force you to open up your heart, be vulnerable with this small group of really trusted friends and like just trust me to see what happens next.”

 

And I did and it was a game-changer. I mean, I have a lot of deep feelings but I put a little bit of a tough exterior and I forced myself to be super honest and super vulnerable with my friends and say things like, “I'm lonely or I don't even know what I need but I'm just feeling exhausted or angry or this is really frustrating to me or I need help with this and I don't even know where to begin.” And just let those friends step into my life in a really intimate way.

 

And you know, I think we've all had a friend at some point who has asked for help and we have been so happy to help them and we've never thought less of them for it. But somehow when it comes to our own time we're like, “Oh, I don't want to trouble anybody. Oh, they're gonna think I can't handle it.” Or like, “Well, this is like I made this bed so I better lie in it. You chose to have all these kids, you chose this career, you chose this whatever, like this is your problem.” But we would never say that about another friend. And so, I don't know why we are harder on ourselves than we are on our friends because it's not right. Most of our friends are happy to help us. They love us helping us, being with us, comforting us, supporting us. That's how they show how important you are to them and we need to let them do that.

 

I've also gotten better about verbalizing the feelings that I had always felt inside but I felt awkward verbalizing. Like, “Thank you for being my friend.” Or like, “Thank you for just spending this time with me,” or, “You are an important person in my life.” Words that we say to our kids, that we often say to our spouses, but sometimes for me at least felt weird saying to friends and I'm really trying to get better about that. That was a great nine months of practice. It doesn't come easy or natural I think to anybody but it's a game changer. Like why not tell your friends how much they mean to you?

 

So, community is essential. Like don't try to lone wolf this life. I've certainly had some more extreme experiences than probably the average person, but the principles are the same. Get plugged into community and have multiple circles of community. Certainly, your faith community but also you know if you work, if you go to the gym, if you go to school, like your kids' friends, like there's so many circles of community and don't be afraid to just jump right in and get connected. And you've got to do it before you are in crisis. You've got to kind of invest in these friendships so that you know them and can trust these friends so that when those seasons come that are hard you have this small group of people who you can rely on. It will be a complete game changer in your life when you have a small, could be one person, can be two people, trusted people who can journey with you.

 

Laura Dugger: (38:07 - 38:34) I could not agree more. I really think that friendship is one of the most precious gifts were given in this life. And going back to your marriage we had discussed that time of separation but then there was a whole other season of transition as well. So, what was it like to come back together after being apart for nearly 10 months?

 

Stacey Morgan: (38:34 - 42:55) Yeah, so it's funny there's always these Hollywood romanticized versions of what reunions must look like whether that's a military deployment reunion or you know when an astronaut comes home. And I think people assume it's some kind of like hot sexy romantic can’t keep hands off of you but the reality is far different, right? Because it's... I mean maybe it is, maybe that's how it is for some people. I will just say for us, you know, when you've been living an independent life for however long, whether that was you know a six-month or an eight-month deployment or a nine-month deployment to outer space, you know I was living my own life fully independent for that long where I made all the choices. I didn't have anybody looking over my shoulder or you know there's a little bit of independent freedom there when you're the only one kind of making the big decisions.

 

And so, when that person comes back into your life, which you want them to come back, you're happy they're home, but there is this awkward transition period. It's definitely an opportunity for some tension because now there's another opinion back in the mix, right?

 

Like I had to kind of adjust my way of doing life for another person who had a valid opinion, another decision maker. The kids had to adjust to having another parent back in the house. You're kind of getting to know each other so there is a little bit of a sniffing out period where you're like, “Hey, nice to meet you.” Because we all change. You know you could be gone from someone for a month, you know, you're not the same person you were today as you were last year or six months ago or maybe even a month ago. So, anytime someone comes back in your life they're different, you're a little different. You're like my friendships had shifted over those ten months, like my work had shifted, everything in my life had moved on and he had not been there in the house with me to experience that so there was... it was a whole new set of experiences and a new person to get to know again.

 

Now he came home and what made it a little bit more dramatic was that Drew came home in the startup of the pandemic. He came home in April of 2020 which at the time I think we weren't sure, “Are we going up? Are we coming down?” We know now looking back we realize things were just ramping up; the world was, we were all still very confused about what's the best thing to do can we all the things you know. So, NASA pretty much brought him home and then he came home to our house after just a few days in kind of the quarantine facility there on Johnson Space Center. But then he came back to our house and then it's like he never left because all of the normal stuff that would happen when you come home from space like travel and meetings and all these kind of things were all canceled or postponed.

 

And so, instead of kind of like getting to know each other slowly it was like zero to sixty. I mean he was home and he didn't go anywhere, none of us could go anywhere. So, we joke that the irony that he was in space with five professional crew mates in a small space and then he came home to live in our small space with five amateur crew mates who are certainly not nearly as gracious or accommodating or helpful as the professional astronaut and cosmonaut crew mates he had. The irony is not lost on us. So, he came home I don't think we've ever spent that amount of time together you know 24/7 in the same house with all four of our kids, no school, nowhere to go because everything's closed. And so yeah we're getting to know each other in this kind of Petri dish of new experiences as the world is also kind of like upside down and everything's unusual.

 

So, in the end it was okay. I joke like we did a lot of “I was like let me go do this puzzle I just need some alone time” or “I'm going for a walk around the neighborhood please don't text me. I'll be back when I'll be back I just need a few minutes to myself.” I think everybody has had that moment in the during the last two years where you're just like, “I just need a few minutes alone please,” you know in my if you've been trapped in your house with somebody who you're not normally with 24/7.

 

Laura Dugger: (42:56 - 43:17) Well sure and with your experience, mental health is very important for the family of the astronaut and the astronaut themselves. Wasn't it your psychologist who is saying typically when you come back and enter this time of reentry and reuniting you do little bit by little bit because that tends to be wiser?

 

Stacey Morgan: (43:17 - 45:22) Yes, that's right. They call it titrating a return. That's a principle they have in the military as well which is they would normally come back from a deployment for at least the first couple weeks back from a long trip away they would go to work every day for several hours because it's you know psychologically difficult for two people who have been living very independent lives to come back together just with like zero transition. The military has learned this over the last 20 years you know that you could go from a combat zone to mowing your lawn in 24 hours. That's stressful especially if you add in you know marriage baggage, kids you know nagging kids or issues like that, financial struggles, that's a kind of what can be a breeding ground for some really difficult situation. So, it's best to let people get to know each other again a little bit at a time.

 

Like you said the normal return from space was kind of the same thing. It would be come home and then you'd have some physical therapy, you'd have these different meetings and it would be a little bit like going to work for several weeks while they're getting their body and everything back to normal. Then, you kind of could have this kind of extended time at home but it gave both people the ability to kind of like reintroduce themselves to each other in bits and pieces and just kind of ease into it. But we did not have that luxury so we kind of had to create it ourselves. And I am glad again that we had those past experiences to know where the potential minefields were. If you were not prepared you could be very disappointed if you went into it thinking, “Oh, they're gonna come home, it's gonna be like romantic. We're gonna be like together and loving it all the time and just connecting so deeply. It's gonna be amazing.” And then the first time that your spouse is like, “Why are you emptying the dishwasher like that?” It's important to know like, “Yeah, if there is going to be tension it is going to be awkward. That's okay that is part of the normal cycle and it's gonna be okay.” But I'm glad that we had that knowledge beforehand because it could be tough.

 

Laura Dugger: (45:22 - 46:07) Well and Stacey another reason that I really appreciate you being willing to let us enter your story with you. When we have different careers or we have someone in the military and a civilian who's not involved, there's so much room for assumptions and maybe not always assuming the best. There's opportunity for miscommunication so I'm just wondering about the person who's hearing this and what if they're thinking, “Well that sounds irresponsible or even selfish of Drew to choose this path if he's a husband and father.” So, how would you offer that kind of person another perspective that they might be missing?

 

Stacey Morgan: (46:07 - 48:20) I mean I would say is when it comes to astronauts for sure, you know, these are not like hot-rodding thrill-seeking people. In fact, I would say I think a lot of people make the assumption that people who do some of these higher like physically higher risky jobs must be like thrill-seeking you know just thrown caution to the wind about everything in their life. Actually, nothing could be farther from the truth. I think you would find that we certainly and I would you know I think a lot of people in the same career field are similar and that we are good risk calculators. And that like policemen, like firemen, like military personnel you know it's an act of service to be in this job. These are not just like you know space tourists or billionaires getting on a rocket for fun. These are professionals who have chosen a career field of service and whether that is as a policeman, a fireman, a service to the nation, service to humanity, service to their community and they all play a part in that.

 

I think most people recognize that that it is you know there's something to be said for the person who chooses a career that has a level of risk because they feel called to it and because thank God for people who will take on risk and are willing to potentially sacrifice themselves for someone else. I mean I think it's kind of a higher calling which is why in general in our culture we honor them and rightfully so. It is risky, it's very risky. They certainly don't do it for the money. I don't think anybody in any kind of government service would say that they're doing it for the money, that's for sure. You know they're doing it because they feel called to something bigger than themselves and to serve their fellow man in some way. That's certainly I know how we feel as a family that his choosing to transition as an Army physician into being still in the Army but serving in this capacity was just the next level up. The way he could serve our community, our country, our nation and all of humanity and he really is its service first. It's the opposite of selfish; it is selfless service really.

 

Laura Dugger: (48:20 - 48:55) Mm-hmm thank you for that. I just say amen to everything you just said. Really it's service from your entire family that requires a sacrifice from each of you like you said for the greater good. And I think something else that you pointed out so well in your book was that having this value more so of security or not living into this calling that you said this calling was put upon your lives that could actually be idolatry if you're starting to place a higher value on security or anything else other than God and so I think you model that well.

 

Stacey Morgan: (48:55 - 51:13) Thank you. Yeah I think a lot of people you know sometimes these idols creep up on us we don't realize that we have put something on a pedestal until it gets threatened to be taken away from us and all of a sudden our reaction is over the top because we're you know you realize, “Gosh, I'm finding my security in this thing I'm finding my identity in this thing whether this thing is a job, another person, a political party, a scientific breakthrough whatever it is.” Right? Like and I think a lot of people, I certainly felt it you know in that launch moment like, “Am I finding my identity in being married to this person or him having this job or this launch being successful? Because if I am in about 10 seconds my world may crumble because if that could all be taken away from me.” And in that yeah I think we all kind of have probably had a moment especially in the last two years where for a lot of people something that they have built their life on has been either taken away from them or has it has been threatened to be taken away because of the pandemic a job a person in their life you know a relationship your kids going off to school every day I mean whatever it is that you've built in your life and you have put on this pedestal and you kind of made without even realizing it have started to place more hope in those things remaining unchanged than you have in God. And all of a sudden when those things are threatened you have this over-the-top emotionally fearful response that's kind of an indicator I think to all of us like when we have that is like, “Whoo my fear and my response should tell me that I seem to be very very afraid that this is going to be taken away from me because I am putting too much hope in it. Instead, I should be taking that and putting it back where it belongs. I should reprioritize where I am finding my hope and the only unchanging thing that we can build our foundation on is God. Everything else, every person, everything, every job, every whatever it is can and could possibly be taken away from you and on your deathbed will be.” So, you know you can't help but have a little bit of self-reflection there.

 

Laura Dugger: (51:13 - 51:23) Well and then for all of us how do you recommend that we all can rediscover our fun side when we've been trapped in survival mode for too long?

 

Stacey Morgan: (51:23 - 56:05) This is a great question because I think all of us have felt this definitely in the pandemic. You know this part in your life where everything in the world feels very chaotic and so you try to regain some control in your own life by maybe regimenting your kids a little more, cleaning your house a little more, you know, controlling things at work or whatever your environment is. And without really realizing it you become this just like survival mode like your day just becomes about making things easier for yourself, streamlining things, making things just go go go. And you wake up one day and you were like, “I'm exhausted. Like why am I so tired? Why am I why do I have like no joy? Why do I just feel unhappy?” And you realize that you have not done anything other than just be like surviving and cleaning and doing work or whatever it is like you have just been doing the basics with no fun whatsoever.

 

So I have been there I hit that a bunch of times in the pandemic, but I certainly hit it when Drew was in space because it's really hard being a single parent and managing all of the emotional burdens and the logistics of it. And I realized that I was cleaning a lot I was kind of getting a little bit more trigger angry with kids or people who you know were making me upset because when you're in survival mode it's all about just like “Get out of my way let me do what I want to do,” it's about getting things done quickly and other people become an annoyance instead of a joy in your life.

 

So it's all about going back to something that that fills you up and it can be something really frivolous it can be something like it's very it's 100% unique to you and so I can't tell you what that thing is but I would say the first step in kind of getting yourself out of survival mode and kind of getting back to your your whole self is asking yourself the question like, “What do I enjoy?” Not for its educational value, not for its good cardio exercise or and not what your kids enjoy, not what is Instagram worthy, or anything like in your soul what fills you up? Is it reading? Is it watching movies? Is it riding bikes? Is it roller skating? Is it you know eating Mexican food? Like what is it that you enjoy doing that when you do it you just feel like more of yourself?

 

And then just go do it tomorrow. Like it's gonna take prioritizing time probably some money but that is as much of a part of who you are how God created you. He didn't make you this like worker bot or like just a mom or just a wife or just a daughter or a sister like He made you a whole person and a huge part of who you are are these things that you enjoy. And you cannot continue to pour into other people or work or your community if you are never getting filled up yourself. You will just dry out, you will be burnt out, you'll be unhappy and you'll actually be worse in all these other areas where you were trying to work hard because you're just gonna be like a shell of yourself.

 

So, for me it was prioritizing time with friends. It was... I got this crazy flyer on my front door for roller skating lessons and I had this fantasy of being a really good roller skater that stemmed from like when I was eight and so I signed my girls and I up for roller skating lessons which was hilarious and very humbling but it was just silly. It took time, we had to prioritize the time on every Saturday it took money, but it was just fun. It had no educational value my kids will look back on it and be like, “What was that all about? I don't even know.” But it was great because even in the midst of a stressful season like that was a very stressful season, undeniable, but as part of that narrative it will not only be like, “Yeah it was really tough when my dad was away and you know my mom had to like single-parent us but that was also the season where my mom took us to roller skating lessons. Isn't that weird? That was so weird.” And we'll laugh about it.

 

And so, it's just about finding something that you want to do and then just unapologetically spend the money, spend the time, and invite a friend to do it with you again. Doing something with a friend is always more fun than doing something alone. Don't feel like you have to justify it or explain it to everyone you don't need to take pictures to post online you don't need to tell it just just go do it and have a good time. It's amazing how when you do that suddenly like those dust bunnies or that email that had a weird tone that you got don't annoy you as much as they used to because your kind of like finding your whole self again.

 

Laura Dugger: (56:05 - 56:27) That's helpful to remember to live life to the fullest and be ready for the next adventure that life's gonna throw at us. Yeah. And just as a bonus can we just ask what are some of the most common questions that you and Drew answer about space?

 

Stacey Morgan: (56:27 - 57:25) That's a good question. A lot of like personal hygiene questions about teeth brushing toilets how do you know take showers or whatever and of course the answer is they don't take showers. But and then of course a lot of people want to know, “Hey I've always been interested in becoming an astronaut how does somebody do that?”

 

And there are so many resources online people you know I say, “Look go online read all about it. There's amazing videos NASA puts out an incredible amount of resources that you can read up on but at the end of the day do what you are most passionate about because the likelihood that you, or your nephew, or your cousin, or your co-worker, your son, or, whoever it is that you know is convinced they want to be an astronaut the likelihood of them being an astronaut is very low. So you should do what just fills you up do a career and a life that you are passionate about and if God calls you to that path those doors will open but if He doesn't you'll still be living a life fully within God's purpose for you.”

 

Laura Dugger: (57:25 - 57:39) And Stacey you're such an incredible communicator both in this interview time together but also really enjoyed your book. And so, if people want to follow you to hear what you're up to next, where would you direct them online?

 

Stacey Morgan: (57:39 - 58:41) Sure well they can go to my website StaceyMorgan2000. That's like Stacey Morgan two zero zero zero dot com. That has my blog that has links to a different podcast like this that I've been on and they can check that out. They can find me on Instagram same handle StaceyMorgan2000.

 

And you know if people want to reach out, I love when people have been sending me messages lately after they've read the book it's been so awesome. You know I tell people like I certainly didn't write this book for the money I'm actually donating all my book proceeds to charities that support military families. So, I've been joking like, “Hey read the book if you don't like it the worst that happened is you donated to a military charity. If you do like it buy ten copies and give one to all your friends. But if you do like it I love it when people send me messages and just tell me kind of like what resonated and how it spoke to them.” That's just been one of the I would say the coolest aspect of completing this project was kind of putting it out there and then getting to see how God uses it in people's lives.

 

Laura Dugger: (58:41 - 59:02) There were so many things that resonated but off the top of my head if anybody has a copy of the book they'll have to turn to the part about baloney on sale friends. And Stacey you may know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge and so as my final question for you today what is your savvy sauce?

 

Stacey Morgan: (59:02 - 1:01:08) Well I'll piggyback off your baloney is on sale friends’ reference and that would be: pick up the phone and text your friend. We didn't need a study to show us this because I think most of us have just known this in our soul but there is an endemic of loneliness in the world right now as you know we've got all these ways to connect and yet people feel more disconnected. They feel more lonely especially women and what I learned through my own kind of relationship struggles over the years is that everyone's waiting for someone else to go first. That you in that moment you feel like you're the only person who's feeling lonely and alone and that everybody else is in these friend circles and you're just somehow on the outside. But the reality is that pretty much everybody feels the same way you do and everybody's sitting at home wishing someone would just text them and invite them to coffee.

 

So that's my practical tip is don't wait, go first be the bold friend or even acquaintance like it doesn't have to be someone that you are super besties with. But those baloney is on sale friends like I said you have to read the book and understand that that is like a special category of friendship that's the kind of friendship that our soul longs for but those things don't appear or like pop out of the ground. That kind of friend doesn't just show up it's developed over time it's invested in and cared for and loved and it starts with literally a text to go get coffee. That's how every great friendship story begins. So, if that's you, if you feel like yeah I don't have this close friend who I can do something with I'm lonely. Okay take that first step be the one who picks up the phone send that text message to the woman from church, or the woman from the gym, or that friend you haven't talked to in a while and just invite them over for coffee. Nothing fancy nothing crazy no agenda just come over for a couple hours for coffee. Every single person I know who does this no one ever regrets inviting a friend over for coffee. That's the first step that we can all take into just feeling more connected and having those kind of friends that we want.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:01:08 - 1:01:31) Love it. Well Stacy your book definitely changed my perspective on risk and I was so hooked on all the stories that you shared so I believe that your book is truly a gift to anyone who chooses to read it and your faith is very inspiring so thank you for sharing your journey with us and thank you for being my guest.

 

Stacey Morgan: (1:01:31 – 1:01:33) Well, thank you it's been great.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:01:33 – 1:05:16) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Breaking Through Addiction in Marriage with Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith (Episode 277)

277. Breaking Through Addiction in Marriage with Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith

 

*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults.

 

1 John 1:9 AMP "If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just [true to His own nature and promises], and will forgive our sins and cleanse us continually from all unrighteousness [our wrongdoing, everything not in conformity with His will and purpose].”

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company

 

Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith are clinicians, speakers, and authors with over 20 years of combined experience in counseling, coaching, and guiding couples toward healing and transformation. Their mission is to help couples navigate the complexities of relational challenges, particularly in the aftermath of sexual addiction and betrayal trauma, fostering deep restoration and growth.

 

Matthew is a Professional Certified Coach (ICF) with a background in pastoral leadership, while Joanna is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, EMDR practitioner, and Certified Clinical Partner Specialist through APSATS. Both hold Master of Divinity degrees and have served together on multiple church leadership teams. Currently, they co-lead their private practice, The Raabsmith Team, where they specialize in helping couples rebuild connection, trust, and intimacy.

 

Their passion for this work stems from their own journey of restoration. After experiencing the devastating effects of sexual addiction and betrayal in their marriage, Matthew and Joanna embarked on a years-long pursuit of reconciliation. This transformative experience led to the creation of tools like The Intimacy Pyramid™, a practical model for relational restoration and growth co-created with colleague Dan Drake. 

 

Their first book, Building True Intimacy (2023), has sold over 1,000 copies and provides practical guidance for couples to use the Intimacy Pyramid to create enduring connections. They also founded Renewing Us Recovery™, a comprehensive program designed to support couples in the later stages of relational restoration. In November 2025, they will host the inaugural Renewing Us Couples Retreat, offering workshops and connection opportunities for couples on similar paths of recovery and growth.

 

Matthew and Joanna live in Memphis, Tennessee with their three young children. They prioritize self-care through shared adventures, new experiences, and a weekly game of pickleball.

 

Free Resource Mentioned in Episode

 

Building True Intimacy book

 

Questions and Topics Discussed:

1. What were the warning signs that you noticed when you were newlyweds that tipped you off to believing things weren't quite as they seemed?
2. Are there any common life circumstances, whether nature or nurture, that predispose someone to be more likely to struggle with a sexual addiction?
3. As couples seek to thrive in marriage, will you give us an overview of the intimacy pyramid you wrote a book about?

 

Other Episodes Mentioned During Episode:

Pornography: Protecting Children, Personal Healing, Recovery, and Victory in Christ with Sam Black

Pornography Addiction and Helpful Recovery with Crystal Renaud Day

 

Additional Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce:

Anatomy of an Affair with Dave Carder

Protecting Your Marriage Against Unfaithfulness with Dave Carder

Stories Series: Recovery From Sexual Sin in Marriage with Garrett and Brenna Naufel

Supernatural Restoration Story with Bob and Audrey Meisner

Special Patreon Re-Release Wholehearted Quiet Time with Naomi Vacaro

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:12)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:13 - 1:38) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.

 

Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com, or connect with them on Facebook.

 

Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith are my guests today. They are clinicians, speakers, and authors with over 20 years of combined experience in counseling, coaching, and guiding couples toward healing and transformation. Our conversation takes a few turns, from getting to hear their incredible and vulnerable story of healing and then getting tips for talking to our children about topics like sex, and also even receiving some practical wisdom and tips for enhancing our own marital enjoyment.

 

Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Matthew and Joanna.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (1:39 - 1:40) So good to be here.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (1:40 - 1:42) So glad to be here. Thanks for having us.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:42 - 1:51) Oh, truly my pleasure. And let's just start here. Can you share your story going back to meeting and falling in love and your first part of marriage?

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (1:53 - 2:17) Sure, yeah. It was a little bumpy at first, actually. So, I knew Joanna through her brother. Joanna's brother was one of my best friends, and I got to meet her whenever she would come in town and visit, and she would invade guy night.

He would usually bring her along to like a Lord of the Rings movie or something, and I would be a little frustrated because I would be like, oh, you brought your sister. Great. That's wonderful.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (2:18 - 2:24) A little off-putting, not super friendly. And I was like, your friend's kind of a jerk. We did not like each other at all in the beginning.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (2:24 - 2:54) Not big fans. And eventually over some time, we started to realize we had a lot in common. We liked to do a lot of the same things.

 

And one summer that Joanna was in town, we started hanging out, started doing more and more together, and really just kind of developed a friendship, which was really fun. And at the very end of the summer, realized that there was something between us. And so, we went on one date.

 

Our first date, we entered a golf tournament. We won it, and that was a good sign.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (2:54 - 2:55) That's a pretty good sign.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (2:55 - 3:02) And we went on three more dates over the course of two months and got engaged.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (3:03 - 3:07) And then two months after that, we got married.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (3:07 - 3:16) Yeah. So, her brother went from like, yeah, it's cool you date my sister, to like, you're not ready to get married. But he's come around now.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (3:17 - 3:19) 15 years later. Yeah.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (3:19 - 3:40) And, you know, a lot of it was, I think we had a definite sense of being kind of called together, being, you know, something special about who we were as a couple. And also, a recognition that we wanted to figure out what a good marriage looked like. We were really excited about marriage, but we didn't really know what we were doing.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (3:41 - 4:15) Yeah, I've had a really great model of healthy relationship. My parents have a wonderful marriage. They work really well as a team.

 

And so, I knew, like, I want something like that. But as soon as we got married, we realized, but how do you actually build that? There's no, like, instruction manual for, okay, here are the things to do to have a great relationship.

 

And so, we read books. We went to conferences. You know, we did what we could, but we still found ourselves getting stuck, not able to really create, like, that deep sense of, like, connection intimacy that we really wanted.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (4:15 - 5:17) And we started kind of hunting more and more for resources. We found some incredible resources that really changed our understanding of the way relationships work, the way people work, and really, for us, shifted our entire focus of kind of what we wanted to do, even with our life. And as we started to do that, though, we still kind of found ourselves at this kind of glass wall.

 

We felt like no matter what we tried, there was always this kind of distance between us. And that started to grow kind of over the years that we were together. It wasn't getting better.

 

It was actually kind of getting worse and worse and worse. And so, Joanna had actually decided to, after we finished our first grad degree together, the idea was we were going to go be pastors. And so, we had finished our kind of theological training.

 

Joanna decided she wanted to get a master's in marriage and family therapy so we could do some work around marriages and ministry in that way. And her very first-class kind of just set our life in a completely different direction.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (5:17 - 6:26) Yes. So, my first class in the MFT program was a two-week intensive called Shame and Guilt. So, that's a really fun two-week intensive to be a part of.

And as a part of that, though, they had an anonymous pastor come and share his testimony of struggling with sex addiction, becoming sober, getting into good recovery, healing and restoration in his marriage, kind of like that whole journey. And as he was talking, something inside of me started stirring. And I knew, OK, what he's saying is resonating way too much with me right now.

 

I think this is the thing. This is what is keeping us stuck, not able to really create the relationship we want. And so, that day I went home and first I just kind of started talking about my class, what I learned, what this pastor had shared.

 

Right. And nothing. Right.

 

We're just kind of talking generally about it. And so, finally I couldn't do it anymore. And I just stopped and I looked him square in the eyes and I said, “Are you struggling with this in our marriage right now?”

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (6:26 - 8:03) Yeah. And for the first time in my life, 20 years, I had been struggling with pornography, sexual addiction, and acting out in our marriage. And for the first time in my life, I was honest.

 

I had lied for years, both with Joanna and everyone else. And the kind of floodgates just kind of opened up. And I finally said yes.

 

And it was really hearing the story, I think, is what did it for me. I think it was knowing that somebody else had made it, that their life hadn't come crashing down because that was the greatest fear for me. That the moment anyone found this out, everything in my life would be over. Everything that I loved would be gone.

 

And so, this kind of story of hope gave me a little bit of courage that day, to be honest. But that started a really long journey for us because there was a lot of damage that was done in both of my hiding. And now kind of this revelation, all the pain kind of came crashing down on Joanna and kind of her shoulders.

 

And so, we started a quite intensive recovery process. We talked about it being kind of a full-time job. I went to recovery for my addiction and for kind of my acting out behaviors.

Joanna had to begin a process of healing from the trauma of this discovery. And that process took us a number of years. It really was a long kind of arduous journey, but one that we ultimately survived and now thrive in our marriage and get the incredible luxury and the kind of gift of helping other couples do that.

 

So, that's kind of where we find ourselves.

 

Laura Dugger: (8:04 - 8:30) That is incredible. I just really appreciate you sharing your story. Clearly, stories are so powerful and that's what led to some healing for you and hopefully can open the floodgates for somebody else listening.

 

So, if we go back in your story, then, Joanna, I'd love to start with you. What were some of those red flags in early marriage that things aren't quite as they seem?

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (8:31 - 10:28) Yeah, there are a few. You know, I think that, you know, one of the pieces we kind of talked about, like, OK, we knew we're still getting stuck because there's 90 percent that felt really good. But then 10 percent that was extremely chaotic, really destructive.

 

Right. We would get we call the pain cycles when we get emotionally dysregulated. And there would be some things that, right.

 

Sometimes we would get into pain cycles, get dysregulated. And I kind of understand why. Right.

 

Like something happened. There was the disagreement. But other times I couldn't put my finger on it.

 

Right. Matthew would just get really angry and really shut down. And I wouldn't be able to connect it to anything that had happened in our life.

 

And so, it was very confusing. It was really hard to understand what was going on. And I think kind of in the same way, when I would pull too close into that connection, that intimacy, he would pull back.

 

Right. And it felt like even though we both named this goal and this desire, he would never actually partner with me in it. And so, again, that was really confusing because the actions were not matching up with reality and what was happening.

 

And I think the other piece that was kind of true for us and true for a lot of other people is that our own sexual relationship was fraught with pain. And so, there was, again, a lot that was really good, but also a lot that was really painful and confusing. And some of the pieces just didn't connect.

 

Right. And I would wonder, OK, what's going on? Well, I guess this is just the reality that like this is how much we get to expect in this area of our life, right.

 

In our relationship. And so, it was when the pastor started describing his life and addiction and what that looked like emotionally, sexually, relationally. I was like, oh, those are all the things that I'm currently experiencing.

 

Here's one thing that would answer all those questions that I have. And so, I think that was part of it. He kind of told me, like, OK, this is it.

 

Laura Dugger: (10:28 - 11:00) That would be so eye opening. And my heart's going out to the couple who is maybe starting to identify with this. Was it and share whatever you're comfortable with from your story or the person's story who opened things up to you?

 

So, sexually, I'm wondering if it was for you, Joanna, if you were hoping to connect sexually and that wasn't happening and that was confusing. You didn't feel pursued. But I don't want to fill in the blanks.

 

So, could you elaborate?

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (11:00 - 12:03) Absolutely. Yeah. And we find it a lot of different ways than couples that we work with.

 

Right. And so, it can be sometimes on either side of the extreme. And so, for us, it was where there would be kind of times when he'd be fully present and interested and engaged.

Right. And then all of a sudden, kind of like I described emotionally, he would just withdraw and not be there. And I would reach out to connect.

 

And that was this like non-response. And which, again, didn't match up with those other times when he was engaged and wanting to connect. And he would give some sort of excuse that didn't totally make sense.

 

Right. But I was kind of like, what else? What was I left with except that?

 

So, I would kind of believe that and go with it, even though it didn't sit right. And so, yeah, I think that was part of it. We will see on the other side for some other couples.

 

It's the opposite. And maybe that spouse is hypersexual in the relationship. Right.

 

To the point where there might be pressure, even pressure to do things sexually that people aren't comfortable with. And so, yeah, it can look a lot of different ways. But that was kind of what our disconnect looked like.

 

Laura Dugger: (12:04 - 12:33) That's so helpful. And there's two different directions I want to go, Matthew. So, I'll set it up.

 

I guess I'm thinking of the guilt and shame and how those are usually so present. So, I have two questions. Were you when Joanna came to you, were you at a point where you recognize something was off and you wanted freedom from this and or had tried freedom before?

 

Let's start with that and then I'll go into the other one.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (12:34 - 14:40) Yeah, it really was holy timing in a lot of ways. I, you know, for a lot of years I had I hated what I did. I didn’t feel like I could stop it, but didn't have a lot of interest in kind of doing anything to stop it.

 

I kind of just like would just say, “OK, this is going to be the last time.” And then, you know, of course it would come back. But I think at this point I had really started to see the damage that was happening to our relationship.

 

I could feel us growing close, growing further apart. I could see kind of Joanna and the confusion that she was having. And like she couldn't understand things.

 

She would ask me a lot of questions that I didn't have answers to. And so, I actually a couple of months earlier, we were at a worship service, and they had said like, “hey, if you are ready to give something up, if you feel like there's something holding you back, come forward and confess it.” And Joanna and I were sitting next to each other, and I remember feeling like the Holy Spirit just like pulling me to like get up out of my seat and I wouldn't move.

 

I was like, no, because she's going to ask me what I went down for. I'm going there's you know, there's a random kind of prayer partner at the front. I'm like, I'm not going and confessing this to some random person.

 

And so, I was ready. But I think like I said, I think there was no path forward. It was kind of confess this and everything stops and ends.

 

But everything like marriage ends, life ends. And so, when she when she brought this, it really did feel like God had kind of been answering a prayer that I've been praying of like, if you give me a way out, I'll take it. I'm desperate.

 

I want it to stop. And it felt like that. I think it was both this kind of terror and this hope that day.

 

And even when I said, yes, it was a little bit like, what have I done? Like, could this have been different? Should I have just gone and told someone else privately?

 

Right. But I think ultimately that it was out between the two of us and that we kind of knew it. We knew what we were dealing with made a huge difference.

 

But I mean, God had been working in my life, offering opportunities for so long. I just been saying no, no, no. And then finally, you know, I think my heart just broke and it was like, yes, OK, I'm ready for this.

 

Laura Dugger: (14:40 - 15:14) I love how the Holy Spirit equipped you with that humility and courage to be brave in that moment. And it's such a blessing for all of us to get to see the end or I guess not the end of the story, but you at this point in your story where you're thriving. And so, I hope that offers a lot of hope to people listening.

 

But let's also pause. And so, going back further in time, Matthew, this was the other part of my question. What was life and attachment and your growing up journey like?

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (15:15 - 18:09) Yeah, I didn't know that at the time. Right. I a lot of this I figured out in the last couple of years of recovery.

 

You know, if you would have asked me, you know, as I was growing up about my life, I would have told you I had the perfect family. I had the perfect life. I think I did not realize that some of the things that I was going through weren't perfect, were harder.

 

And part of that was because I think the way my family dynamic worked was we just swept everything under the rug. You know, whatever happened, we just kind of went, OK, and moved on from. And I learned to do that as a kid.

 

And that meant a lot of emotional chaos. There was a lot of physical chaos and kind of volatility in our house growing up. And even though I had parents who are still married to this day, have stayed together and have tried to create kind of a stable life.

 

There was a lot of emotional and kind of relational instability. We moved around a lot. And then once we started moving, I found myself more and more kind of isolated at school. I started dealing with bullying and some things that really kind of left me not knowing how to deal with the pain that I was going through. And so, my way of stuffing things under the rug was getting, you know, escaping, you know, kind of escaping into anything that I could. I watched a lot of TV.

 

I was a latchkey kid, so I would come home. I'd watch TV a lot in the afternoon and then TV kind of just turned to more and more. And I was exposed pretty young to pornography, actually at a church camp.

 

I was at a summer church camp. Someone brought a Playboy magazine, and I was exposed to pornography. And I kind of felt that high, that rush.

 

And that just became kind of a mode of my escape. Right. Of whatever I could do to engage sexually, whether with my mind or with others.

 

That's how I could get out of the pain I was in. That's how I could stop feeling kind of the chaos that I was having and not realizing that it was becoming this kind of adaptive habit, that it would just be this thing I would go back to more and more. And I grew up at a time that technology was still emerging.

 

So, I can remember when we got our first computer and no one was talking about safeguards or anything. And so, it was just kind of exposure. Here you go.

 

Here's everything you could ever want and don't need. And that really became my life. And the more and more that I did, the better and better I got at lying and hiding and even being kind of vulnerable in kind of fake ways.

 

I would mention things like, yeah, we all have this struggle. And even Joanna, I had told like, you know, that was a struggle of mine in the past, but I've moved on from it. Right.

 

I told myself and other people just kind of lie after lie after lie so that I could have really this double life. I could appear one way and then I could be acting a completely different way, kind of in the dark.

 

Laura Dugger: (18:10 - 20:41) Yeah. And that makes sense. I'm thinking back to two episodes.

 

We did one with a male, Sam Black from Covenant Eyes, and he speaks so much of the origins of pornography and that foothold that Satan gets. And so many times it is in childhood, unwittingly you're exposed and then what it can turn into. And then Crystal Renaud Day came on to share a lot of females struggle with this as well.

 

And so, I'll link to those if those are a help.

 

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So, at that moment when you've confessed, Matthew, the floodgates open for you and Joanna.

 

What did life look like for both of you next and even individually your journeys?

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (20:42 - 22:30) Yeah, it was separate. We did not separate, but we were really focused on our two different journeys because they were so different. For me, I had to figure out what had really gone on in my life and what was really happening.

 

Because, like I said, I had become such an expert at hiding from myself and others that I didn't really know how to live any other way. And so, I, you know, Joanna kind of handed me a list of everything this pastor had done. She was like, here you go.

 

Right. She kind of handed me that list and was like, good luck. And so, I dove in.

 

I went to a men's intensive. And I think that was probably one of the key places for me to tell my story for the first time. I really took a look at my life and had some people help me take a look and recognize the trauma that I had as a kid exposure that I had experienced and what that really meant to me and helped me understand what I was doing.

 

But also, kind of what I was doing to myself, how I was really kind of killing myself from the inside out and preventing myself from having the kind of relationship I wanted with God and other people. And so, that discovery was in really ways kind of invigorating for me. I felt like I was living for the first time.

 

I think I had started to kind of get out of this kind of burden, this fear of always being caught. I told Joanna kind of the history of everything that had happened in my life and our relationship. And so, I was feeling this kind of renewed sense of like energy and excitement of like, this is good.

 

I want this life. I want the life there that I'm not in constant kind of fear and in constant kind of connection to this thing I hate. And so, which is really different than what Joanna was experiencing.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (22:30 - 25:07) Yeah. So, for me, it was very jarring in the beginning. Everything I thought was real came crashing down around me.

 

And that was especially jarring because I had left kind of the direction, the path that I was on. Right. We talked about our story earlier.

 

It included two months of dating, two months of engagement before we got married. And that also included me dropping out of law school, getting married and moving to California to pursue a ministry degree so we could work as pastors together or do something together. And so, in that moment, all of that came crashing down.

 

And I kind of was very lost, not just in our relationship, but in kind of what in the world am I even doing here? What am I going to do moving forward if he doesn't choose recovery? Right.

 

And so, just all of those question marks, all in that one moment of him answering that question affirmative. And so, so there was like that heaviness on one side and then on the other side was this relief of finally everything I've been experiencing makes sense. Right.

Finally, I feel like I actually know what's going on. And because of that, there could maybe be a path forward for us as well. So, is this very, very weird dichotomy in that moment? And so, but I think I knew right away, like, I can't be vulnerable. I can't be intimate with him anymore. Right.

 

I have to step back in our relationship and wait and see what he chooses to do. Is he going to choose to do the work of recovery and get healthy and start to be honest and safe or not? And so, that's so we kind of did kind of there's some space for a very long period of time while we focused on our own individual recoveries.

 

And that, again, was a little bumpy for me. This is over a decade ago. And so, there is very little information about what partners experience.

 

We call it betrayal trauma, and that just wasn't a very common word at the time. And so, some of the resources I plugged into came from a more we would call it codependent, co-addict focus, which just really didn't fit. So, I struggled to find resources that felt like they fit for my journey.

 

But once I did, it all again, my own healing process started to make sense. And it was so like freeing and liberating to understand. Like, oh, OK, this is what I'm going through. This is why I feel this way.

 

This is what it looks like to heal and move forward. And so, kind of beginning that process was so important because then when Matthew was kind of in a healthy, safe place, I was as well, and we can start to step in towards each other on that kind of more couples’ journey at that point.

 

Laura Dugger: (25:07 - 25:17) I love how you did that wisely, though, separate first, not rushing into couples at that time. Absolutely.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (25:18 - 26:33) Appreciate you calling it wise. I think we were terrified. Yeah, we'll take God's help.

 

I think he was like, you guys just work on your own stuff for a while. And in some ways, like I said, it was we didn't know what we were doing. But I think we knew we wanted there to be a future between the two of us.

 

But we knew it had to be completely different in some ways than what we had before, which was scary because we liked what we had before. Like we had a really great marriage in many ways. Right.

 

There was this portion of it, this hidden portion that was really infecting and killing it all. But what we did have together, we didn't want to totally lose. It just was really hard to know, especially early on, what's going to come forward.

 

Like, who are we still going to be as we go forward? Are we still going to be a couple who does things together? Right.

Who works together? Or is that all kind of going to have to be different? Is that the only way that we have kind of moving forward?

 

And so, that was that was probably the hardest part was having like this sense of like not wanting to lose us. We were like, if we lost that, that was going to be miserable. And I think a lot of our work was about how do we eventually reclaim this marriage that we want, that we love?

 

Laura Dugger: (26:34 - 27:04) Yes, because from what I'm sensing, you're friends with each other, you're on purpose or on mission with God. He did a course correction change, putting you on this path to help couples. But your desire to work together, it's like He still honored that in the ministry of reconciliation.

 

And I'm assuming abundantly blessed it beyond what you could ever dreamed up what we're doing now.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (27:04 - 27:42) Right. It's been amazing to see what God has done, how he's used our story, which is so fitting because it was someone sharing their story that brought our healing. And I think because of that and it wasn't right away; it took some time to get to the place where we felt open to God using our story to bring healing to others. But we found as we stepped into that, that we have received such a blessing.

 

Right. And just being able to sit with other couples in that journey and see them go from that place of pain and confusion to this place of restoration and thriving. Like there is no better work that we could have imagined for ourselves.

 

Laura Dugger: (27:42 - 28:09) Love that. And really, you did have to pioneer a path. There weren't many resources at that time.

 

So, that's another reason I'm grateful you can share your story, because I hope it unlocks freedom for others. So, if we're turning more outward now and you're helping as you work with couples, how do you help them identify the difference between sexual struggles and sexual addiction?

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (28:10 - 30:15) Yeah, that's a great question. And I think that it really kind of exists on a spectrum. And so, everything kind of exists under what we call problematic sexual behavior or unwanted sexual behavior.

 

Whenever someone is acting in a way sexually that doesn't align with their values. And then the question is, is how often, how compulsive, right? How habituated, right?

 

How really embedded is that practice? Because the more and more embedded it is and the more and more that I continue to act on that, seeing the damage that it's doing, that's really what qualifies as the addiction. The addiction is when I know that this is causing harm and I and I feel that even though I want to stop it and I've tried to stop.

 

Right. I can't stop the 12 steps has a great line. They say addicts, you know, addicts have no problem stopping.

 

It's staying stopped. That's hard for an addict. Right.

 

And so, that's usually a sign that there's an addiction. And really what that means is that just means that I'm going to have to be even more kind of thorough and scrupulous in my willingness to change a lot. Because if I have built an addictive lifestyle, that means everything I do kind of functions to support that lifestyle.

 

Right. And so, my part of that was this hiding. I lied about everything.

 

I would lie about anything just to make sure that I was in control of the narrative. And so, for me, it was recognizing that if I was going to move forward free of my addiction, then it had to begin with honesty, with this kind of radical honesty and transparency and growing in that consistently, because that was the way that I manifested this addiction and kind of kept it going. And so, that's really what the addiction is about, is recognizing what are the kind of pieces in my life that are supporting this addiction to continue to exist?

 

And how is God going to dismantle those things? Right. And how am I going to be a part of that dismantling?

 

Laura Dugger: (30:16 - 30:33) That's well said. And also, I'm curious, are there any common life circumstances, whether that's nature or nurture, that are more likely to predispose someone to more likely have this struggle with sexual addiction?

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (30:34 - 32:30) I mean, there are, I think, you know, the things that we tend to look for are trauma and trauma comes in so many different forms. So, trauma is more it's rare that it's a single event. It's often more a kind of consistent occurrences.

 

As I mentioned, you know, I can't speak to kind of one event in my life that I say this was the traumatic moment in which everything changed. But it was more of the chaos. And so, I grew up in a family that could be really, really, really loving and incredibly encouraging and fun and silly and in a heartbeat switch into one that was verbally and physically just chaotic and terrifying.

 

And it was that chaos that kept me on edge. What it did was it created in me kind of a system of always wanting to be on high alert. And that would exhaust me.

 

That would kind of wear me out. And I would want to kind of numb that kind of feeling away. And so, I think those traumas, I do think early exposure.

 

Right. I mean, I was exposed early before my brain was ready to really understand what it was dealing with. And I think the third component that we often see is a low level or a kind of really a void of sexual education.

 

There was I'm sure I had a small talk with my dad at some point, but we were not talking about pornography. We weren't talking about bodies. We weren't talking about sex from a kind of healthy, good way.

 

I grew up in the church, and it was kind of don't do this until you're married and then you'll be fine. Right. That was the sexual education message.

 

And so, those things, right, trauma, exposure and lack of kind of education usually forms in someone a difficulty of knowing what they're doing, knowing that it's destroying them before it's really kind of gotten a deep hole.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (32:30 - 33:20) I think like the brain. The brain aspect to when we talk about addiction, there are usually chemicals involved in addiction being formed, being created. And so, I think also co-occurring disorders, right, that emotional pain, also things like anxiety, depression, ADHD, where my brain really likes the dopamine it gets from sexual acting out. Right.

 

And you can actually need it to feel OK. That can also be a factor in kind of especially that addictive side of these behaviors. When my brain gets really attached to that dopamine release that it's getting because maybe I have some other things going on or I just have emotional pain.

 

I don't know what to deal with, how to handle it, how to regulate that in a healthy way.

 

Laura Dugger: (33:20 - 34:30) There's so many good points there. I'll just highlight one because there's a profound piece that you were talking about with early exposure to evil and the corruption of it is extremely harmful. And yet not being exposed to God's good design for sex and hopefully being coached by our parents, that is both of those play a part in the addiction. And so, I'm thinking even as we shift to think about parents, I know I've had parents come to me and just say, I don't want to talk about this with my kids.

 

I don't want to rob their innocence. And my approach is if God made it, this is good. We can talk to them.

 

You're not robbing their innocence when you're sharing the good age-appropriate parts of sex. And it's so great to be that first one to share with them. And I think it does the opposite of what we would expect.

 

We're afraid that that might make them hyper sexualized. But would you speak to that? Any encouragement for parents?

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (34:30 - 36:37) Yeah, it's tricky. I mean, even as parents, we've got kids and its still kind of navigating it. But I do think what it does is it lets someone learn the things they need to in the timeline they need to.

 

I think part of one of the things is that, you know, really good sexual education starts young. I mean, they start six and seven years old or even younger, just talking about our bodies. Right.

 

Because I think that's part of it. Really, this is about understanding the goodness of our bodies. This body was created by God, the maker of heaven and earth, and he called it good.

 

And so, I think part of a good sexual education begins with that. And then, what's really nice is once you've started the conversation, that means if your children are exposed or if they're presented with things that don't line up with what they've been hearing, they now feel safe to come and talk about that. Because that's really what this was about.

 

I didn't feel safe to talk about what I was exposed to, what people were doing. Right. And what people were encouraging me to engage in.

 

And so, you know, my parents would ask me how it's going. I would not tell them anything because it wasn't a conversation that they were having with me. And so, I didn't think it was a conversation I was going to have with them.

 

And so, that meant that as I found myself further and further away from my values, I felt like, who am I going to share this with? And so, part of having the conversation is it normalizes with our kids that this is OK to talk about, which is actually what adults need. I mean, part of our work with couples as adults, we have to get them talking about sex and body parts.

 

I mean, it's amazing to have 30, 40, and 50-year-olds in our offices and in our sessions. And they're so uncomfortable. Right.

 

They don't want to talk about sex. They don't want to talk about their bodies. They don't want to talk about what their bodies do.

 

Right. And we keep being like, this is God's good stuff. Right.

 

There is goodness here. But you have to begin by talking about it. Right.

 

Having these conversations.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (36:38 - 37:54) I tell all the parents I work with, your kids are going to pick up a narrative about what sex is and what sexuality is, whether you want them to or not. And so, would you rather be the first person to step in and give them a healthy view, a healthy narrative to understand? Right.

 

And this is beyond kind of the nuts and bolts that everything our kids are learning. They're trying to find a deeper meaning. They don't think it's unconscious when they're young.

Right. But they're taking it and they're going, what meaning does this have for me? How does this inform my self-worth, my view of my own value as a human in my body?

 

And how does it inform my experience of the world and my safety in the world? And am I empowered to make decisions? Am I connected?

 

Do I belong? Right. All of those questions are asking.

 

And so, as they're confronted with issues of sexuality, it's going to inform those things. And the world will not give them a healthy narrative about it. Right.

 

And so, being able as a parent to step in and give them that healthy meaning, that narrative, that understanding of their worth and their safety as they're piecing together kind of sexuality, again, at that age-appropriate level is so important.

 

Laura Dugger: (37:54 - 38:30) Guess what? We are no longer an audio only podcast. We now have video included as well.

 

If you want to view the conversation each week, make sure you watch our videos. We're on YouTube and you can access videos or find answers to any of your other questions about the podcast when you visit thesavvysauce.com. And I love that you're talking about this with couples you work with.

 

So, will you give us an overview of the intimacy pyramid that you actually wrote a book about and you teach to couples?

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (38:30 - 38:31) Absolutely.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (38:31 - 39:15) Yeah. I mean, it was born out of our journey because, as you said, we wandered for a while and we felt a little bit like Israel, just kind of, you know, knowing that the Promised Land was out there, but never really feeling like we could find it. And when we started to piece together, I think the kind of relationship that we had dreamed of reclaiming, we really ask ourselves, how can we make this a more direct, a simpler process, not just for couples who went through what we went through, but really for any couple who's hungry for this, for the couple like us when we were first starting.

 

It really wants an amazing marriage. And so, we really focused on a kind of simplistic idea of what are the core kind of foundational levels of building really healthy intimacy.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (39:16 - 40:10) Yeah. So, the intimacy pyramid, it's actually a triangle. There's a visual that goes along with it.

 

So, if you imagine the different levels of the triangle, very similar to Maslow's hierarchy of needs, starting at the bottom, you have to start with honesty. And so, we definitely experienced that reality in our own relationship. Right.

 

This is something we learned from Couples in Betrayal, but like Matthew said, we realized this is where every couple starts. Am I willing to be fully open, fully honest and transparent in this relationship? Am I being my authentic self?

 

Right. And after that level of honesty, that's when we start to build safety. And that has to do with our ability to communicate in really healthy, constructive ways.

 

Even when it's hard, even when we're disagreeing, even when we feel like yelling at each other. Are we able to show up with that belief that we both have the same goal? We're trying to build something together.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (40:10 - 41:57) And with honesty and safety, that's where we get to work on trust as a couple. That's that next level. And trust is where we start to be more partners, where we're really starting to kind of lean in, work together, kind of be courageous and saying, “Hey, this isn't just my life anymore, right?”

 

This is our life together. And as that trust is established, this is what allows for the incredible work of vulnerability. And there's been all these studies about vulnerability over the last few years and how important it is.

 

What we recognize, though, is vulnerability on top of nothing is actually really risky and kind of even dangerous. It's vulnerability that's built on healthy trust where we step in and we do share some of those deeper pains in those wounds, those fears. We start to really heal some of those kind of early traumas that we experience.

 

It's in that vulnerability. That's what allows a couple to be truly intimate. And it's when they've worked through each of these levels, what we find is these couples, when they reach this kind of this intimacy level, they're passionate about who they are as a couple.

They love kind of their relationship itself. They have a purpose to it. They have a sense that like our marriage, our relationship exists for a reason, but they're also really playful.

 

They're silly. They're really kind of comfortable in their own skin. And it's those five levels really working together that allows them to experience a relationship that gives life.

I think one of the things we know is that when God creates, it gives life. And so, God created marriage not to burden us, right? Not to kind of, you know, not even just to get us through, you know, kind of surviving life, but actually to bring more life.

 

Right. And not just life within the relationship itself, but life outside of it.

 

Laura Dugger: (41:58 - 42:22) Oh, I love it. And you're also working with couples. I've heard you speak before about the working on offering your spouse the gift of self-awareness.

And so, what could couples expect? How do you actually work with them to grow in self-awareness and recognize things like the emotional process they go through in marriage?

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (42:22 - 43:48) Absolutely. So, awareness. So, in our book, we obviously detail the intimacy period much more.

 

And that's Building True Intimacy is the name of the book. But each of those levels we just walked through have different components that go into that. And awareness is kind of like one of the most important components of that honesty foundation.

 

So, we have to start with awareness and we can't really build anything if there's a lack of self-awareness. And so, when we work with couples, one of the first places we start is we kind of look at the past. Are they aware of what they've been through, what those experiences are, and how those experiences have shaped them into the person that is now in the present, showing up with their spouse.

 

Right. And so, once I start to have that insight from my past, from those experiences, how they shape me, I can better understand my present. What are the things that I feel and why do I feel those things in particular?

 

Right. And then when I feel those things in a relationship, and these are typically those kind of heavier, more challenging, more painful emotions. How do I respond?

 

How am I showing up? Because the reality is that all of us cope with emotional pain the same way we cope with physical pain. We go into fight or flight.

 

That part of our brain gets triggered and we respond with these kind of destructive relational coping behaviors that then hurt my partner.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (43:48 - 46:22) Yeah. Like, for example, I told you about that chaos I experienced as a kid. And so, those would always happen around conflicts.

 

My parents would disagree about something. There would be some type of argument about, you know, and it could be anything where we were going for dinner or what color the curtains were. Right.

 

But it would create this chaotic environment. So, as I got married, the thing that I didn't like the least was any type of conflict. Joanna and I would get in when I could sense us disagreeing and we are both passionate.

 

We have opinions and we believe things and we get into this kind of disagreement and argument. It would freak my system out. And I didn't realize that because I didn't really know my past.

 

I didn't know what was going on. I would just really do anything to shut it down. I get angry and I try to get loud, or I just walk away in the middle of a conversation.

 

As Joanna was talking, I would just leave the room and my acting out was just a further manifestation of that kind of leaving the relationship. And so, part of my healing journey was to learn about my story and recognize, oh, OK, I can see what's happening. And what's really interesting is it still happens in our life today.

 

I've been in recovery for 12 years. I still feel the same things. Now it's more like when my kids are getting involved.

 

Right. And there's energy in the room and people are online. And then I go, oh, yeah, there it is.

 

There's my system again. It's starting to feel unsafe. It's starting to feel alone. And I know what it wants to do. It wants to get angry, or it wants to just shut down and walk away. And what's incredible is that we've learned the ability to see where we're at but also speak directly to that.

 

And so, what I get to do for myself now is I get to go, “OK, I know I'm feeling unsafe and I know I'm feeling alone. And I know I want to get angry to solve it, but it won't do it. But here's the truth. The truth is that I'm safe in God's economy. I'm empowered. I have an incredible partner in my life. I've never been alone. I've always had someone there for me. And Joanna is the perfect example of that.”

 

And that totally changes my sense of really kind of where I am. And it changes how I show up. I tend to be much more calm.

 

I ask questions rather than make demands. And it's that ability to kind of see where we're at and shift. That's just been such a game changer for our family and just for our own relationship.

 

We still have to work on it. You know, it doesn't always look that pretty. Right.

 

But when we do, it's amazing how different it goes.

 

Laura Dugger: (46:24 - 46:44) And then I just think of the generational impacts that has when people are willing to do the work. And so, if there's a brave couple out there who wants to seek their own help and healing, can you share where they can go for help, including the Raabsmith team and all that you have to offer?

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (46:46 - 47:30) Yeah, you know, we would love them to connect with us because I think one of the things we recognize was having guides along the way. I mean, we had to figure a lot out ourselves, but we also had some really incredible guides, some mentors, some coaches, some therapists. And so, we always just say, hey, connect with us.

 

You can find us at raabsmithteam.com. We have a heart for couples who want restoration and reconciliation because that's what we're getting to live and experience. And what's cool is our whole team, they're couples who've been through this work, but who also have been professionally trained to help other couples to just continue to guide and to grow relationships so that they're thriving and they're kind of giving that life.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (47:30 - 48:10) Absolutely. We also love to give out resources. And so, we have the kind of we call it the honest connection.

 

And so, again, if you're starting this journey or even this is for any couple who wants deeper connection, deeper intimacy, learning how to do that on a daily basis in small ways is so important. And so, we have a worksheet that couples can take and use. We're happy to provide that for them for free and kind of try this for 30 days and notice the changes that you experience in your relationship.

 

And so, that's a great starting point wherever you are in relationship to begin that journey of connection.

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (48:10 - 48:14) And you just go to raabsmithteam.com/free and that resource is all yours.

 

Laura Dugger: (48:15 - 48:26) Wonderful. Add links for that in the show notes for today's episode. And is this then for any couple worldwide, nationwide?

 

Can you work with people?

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (48:27 - 48:55) We have we've got couples across the world, which is really fun. It's been really neat just to see the way that God has used our work. One of the things when we first started this journey, we started getting couples calling us saying, “Hey, I don't have anybody in my area that specializes in this, that understands this journey.

Can I work with you?” And so, we kind of felt a calling to say we want to make sure that we connect with people wherever they are. And so, absolutely.

 

If you can hear our voice, you can work with us.

 

Laura Dugger: (48:55 - 49:14) I love that. And just as a little bonus practical tip, you kind of mentioned being proactive to thriving in marriage. Is there any encouragement that you could share or a specific practical tip that anybody could start to incorporate if they want to take their marriage to that thriving level?

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (49:15 - 50:12) Yeah, I think just the ability to slow down. We have a  nine, seven and six-year-old. We own our own business, and we like life and life can get incredibly fast.

 

And I think what we have found is when, as I was mentioning, when I learned the ability just to slow down, even if I don't fully just know myself slowing down and checking in, just where am I at right now? Where's my heart? Right. Where do I want to be?

 

I think I realize that so often my values and my actions aren't aligned when I'm moving too quickly. I'm not being the person that I want to be. And we see that in so many couples. We meet so many couples and there are two really great people who have a hard time working together. They have a hard time kind of being a team.

 

And it's usually because they're working so fast. They don't realize they're kind of working against each other. So, slowing down, I think, is such a big thing.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (50:12 - 51:18) Another piece that's, again, really easy to start right away. A lot of couples we work with, and I think probably even us when we start a relationship, was there were two individuals in a relationship, and it was kind of either me or you. And starting to understand there's this third thing between you, the relationship.

There's a third almost entity that really needs care. It needs nurture. It needs you to focus on its needs from time to time.

 

And so, beginning to approach the day, even approach conversations with this question of like, what does our relationship need right now? And even as you're trying to make decisions, what is the way we can decide this in a way that's good for our relationship or what decision benefits our relationship rather than does it benefit you or me? Because when you get into that struggle, it can become a competition.

 

It can become transactional really quickly. So, starting to ask that question, starting to talk about the needs and caring for the relationship very intentionally can be a way to shift that.

 

Laura Dugger: (51:20 - 51:38) Thank you for sharing that. I think that leads into my last question, because you already know we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for both of you, Matthew and Joanna, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Matthew Raabsmith: (51:39 - 52:22) I kind of mentioned this, but I think it's the willingness to be honest. I was so willing to lie to myself and kind of really hide from other people. And I didn't even know that I was doing it.

 

But as I have learned to be more honest in really kind of healthy ways, right. You can dump, you can whine, you can complain, you can get angry. But truly being honest meant just looking at what I was feeling and trying to kind of figure that out and name that.

 

As I have learned that ability to be honest with myself and with others, it has just opened up a new world of possibilities. And it has shown me how many people care for me; how much God cares for me. So, I think that honesty is something I just want to practice more and more every day.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (52:22 - 53:30) I think for me, just in my own journey and working with so many partners, that importance of being able to make empowered decisions in my life. Right. That I am really intentionally choosing the direction I'm going in life.

 

Realizing that instead of going into this more helpless, powerless victim stance is such a difference. And really the only thing that changes a lot of times is mindset. You don't have to overhaul your entire life.

 

Right. You have to add in like four hours of self-care and all of these things. But starting to shift that mindset into, wait, I have power in the decisions I make.

 

And one of the ways that's really important to do that is growing that self-awareness. I cannot make empowered decisions if I'm not aware of where I'm at emotionally, physically, spiritually. Right.

 

If I'm not aware of my needs on a regular basis. And so, slowing down to check those things in, sometimes even multiple times in the day if you're not used to that. So, you're more connected to yourself, to what you need, what you want.

 

So, you can start making those empowered decisions.

 

Laura Dugger: (53:32 - 54:00) I love that. It's just so enjoyable to host a very lively couple who's humble and you've done your work. And then you're willing to share all this overflow of goodness with all of us.

 

So, I think my prayer is that the Lord would richly bless you for this open-handed generosity of wisdom and your story and experience that you've shared with us and modeled for us today. So, thank you to both of you for being my guest.

 

Joanna Raabsmith: (54:00 - 54:03) Thank you so much. It's a joy being here.

 

Laura Dugger: (54:05 - 57:47) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Conversations with your Teen About Sex Puberty and Identity: Special Patreon Release with Janelle Rupp

Special Patreon Release: Janelle Rupp Conversations with your Teen About Sex Puberty and Identity

 

*DISCLAIMER* This episode contains adult themes and is not intended for little ears.

 

"Walk with the wise and become wise, for a companion of fools suffers harm." Proverbs 13:20 (NIV)

 

*Transcript Below*

 

Questions We Discuss:

1. Perhaps one of the most asked questions by Christian singles is, "How far is too far?" How do you respond to that question?
2. Knowing the importance of educating ourselves as adults, what is the most popular sexual behavior among teens?
3. What are some wise and age-appropriate guidelines recommend for teaching our kids about sex and sexuality?

 

Janelle Rupp is a Christ-follower, wife & mom of three (in that order).  Upon graduating from Cedarville University with a Bachelor’s of Science in Nursing and a Minor in Biblical Studies, she worked nine years as a Pediatric ICU nurse before transitioning into nine years of nursing education for the Empower Life Center of Peoria, Illinois. There she specialized in Sexual Health with an emphasis on Sexual-Risk Avoidance. After moving to the Atlanta, Georgia area, Janelle developed a Biblically-based, Christian & Home school curriculum entitled “Remember Whose You Are: Rooting Human Sexuality in Gospel Identity." Using an expositional study of Genesis 1-3 alongside evidence-based scientific research, the four-unit program builds on itself to establish how gospel identity determines holy & healthy & holy sexuality. With a passion for both science & Scripture, Janelle is currently teaching the curriculum at North Cobb Christian School while watching the Lord grow the program at schools nation-wide.  She can be reached at jrupp.rememberwhoseyouare@gmail.com.

 

Recommended website for Parents: axis.org

 

Thank you to our sponsor: Daisy Kings Use code SAVVY to Save!

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcript*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:09)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 1:31) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. Today's message is not intended for little ears.

 

We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.

 

Thank you to Daisy King's, a skincare brand that meets simplicity. Their tallow-based products are made with wholesome, God-given ingredients to deeply nourish, restore, and protect your skin.

 

There are no toxins, no fillers, just pure, effective skincare. Visit DaisyKings.com to nourish, restore, and glow.

 

Janelle Rupp is my guest today, and she packed so much knowledge and inspiration into this time by educating us on a healthy view of sex, sharing God's holy and awe-inspiring design of our bodies, and ways that all of this points to Him.

 

She also is going to include meaningful conversations to have with our children throughout the years that they're in our home. Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Janelle.

 

Janelle Rupp: (1:32 - 1:35) Thanks so much, Laura. I'm so glad to be with you today.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:35 - 1:42) Will you just get us started by telling us a little bit about your faith journey and where it's brought you to today?

 

Janelle Rupp: (1:43 - 4:51) Sure. I was raised in a Christian home. I remember from a young age actually being struck with the realization that God loved me so much that He sent His own son for me.

 

But it really was probably more in my teenage years that I realized the depth of my sin, that it was great, and that Jesus was that bridge between who God was and who I was. Also, early on in my life, I knew I wanted to be a nurse, which is actually kind of interesting because there was no one in my family who was a nurse or in healthcare. But I had watched my mom care well for others in her family who had a myriad of mental and physical health problems.

 

So, I do think that the compassion that God put in my heart at a young age did find its place in a healthcare setting just over time and experiences I watched her. I really felt like my dream job would be to work in preventative healthcare, specifically with teenagers. And I had a heart for girls in really tough situations like teenage pregnancy.

 

It's a very marginalized group of humanity. And so, after college, I ended up in the pediatric intensive care unit at Riley Children's Hospital in Indianapolis for about seven years. And during that time, I met my husband.

 

We got married. We had our first child. And then while pregnant with our second, we decided to move closer to my extended family back in Illinois.

 

And a few years after I had our second child, I actually ended up landing that dream job that I felt like the Lord had laid on my heart way back in college. And so, I started the Empower Life Center in Peoria, Illinois in 2008. And I worked there for nearly 10 years as a nurse educator, teaching parenting and newborn classes.

 

But my primary role was a sexual risk avoidance educator, specializing in sexually transmitted disease and infections. And I would teach in public schools and private schools and charter schools. It's a junior high and high school level and also a guest lecturer at Bradley University in Peoria, Illinois.

 

And I always tell people that no one grows up and hopes to be a sex teacher one day. I did not envision that God would put me in that area of education, but he did. And so, after 10 years of doing that, when our family then transitioned down to Atlanta, Georgia for a job transfer for my husband, we had chosen to put our kids, now three kids at that point, in Christian education.

 

And within months, the middle school principal had heard about my background and approached me to create a curriculum for their fifth through eighth graders that was centered on a biblical view of sex and sexuality. So, I spent a series of months developing that curriculum. I then decided to go ahead and accept a teaching job to teach that curriculum.

 

And it's entitled Remember Whose You Are. And it's designed as a four unit developmentally appropriate program for Christian schools or homeschool environments. And currently we're in the beginning stages of equipping and training other schools to implement it at their school as well.

 

Laura Dugger: (4:52 - 5:17) Wow, that is so interesting to hear how you got interested in teaching others this healthy view of God and sex. And at the foundation of your teaching, you begin with a theology of God. So, I'd love to zero in on just one of your points that God is a relational God.

 

Will you elaborate on that and share how it ties into this topic we're discussing today?

 

Janelle Rupp: (5:18 - 7:13) For sure. One of my goals in teaching this is just to help my students see God for who he is, fall in love with who he is. And God being relational is one of the places where I always notice that beginning to take shape.

 

I find evidence for that in Genesis 1:26, where it says, “and God said, let us make man in our image after our likeness.” The definition of the word relational means a desire to pursue relationship or connection with another. And before we think of God pursuing relationship with us, it's actually really critical to look at that verse and note that God is already relational within himself. So, we see evidence in that verse that he's referring to himself in a plural sense.

 

And when we take that alongside other areas of Scripture as well, we see God existing as Trinity, Father, Son and Spirit, three in one, indicating that God does not need humanity for relationship. He only desires humanity for relationship. And one day, actually, when I was teaching that to a group of fifth grade boys last year, I said, God does not need you, but he wants you.

 

One of the fifth grade boys, in all complete sincerity, said, “Aww.” And it was one of the sweetest things I had ever heard because it was this very honest verbal expression of what it felt like to know that we are wanted by the God of the universe. I tell my students, “You know, someone only wants relationship with you when they love you.”

 

And so, while 1 John 4:8 tells us, “that God is love.” It's pretty amazing that way back in the first chapter of Genesis, as we find God creating man and creating woman, He's still incredibly loving that He even desired to create it in the first place. So, I think God being relational is such an important aspect to the who and the why of who He is.

 

Laura Dugger: (7:14 - 7:28) Absolutely. And I really envision this chat being a time when parents can listen alongside their teen or their tween or whenever it's age appropriate. So, will you just give us a glimpse of what you do teach in schools?

 

Janelle Rupp: (7:29 - 13:04) I would be happy too. The very first unit is just the who and the why of God. We focus on 10 characteristics of God, and then we transition to the who and the why of humanity.

 

What do all humans have in common? And we highlight eight characteristics that we all share in common. And then unit two, it's centered on the who and the why of me.

 

And specifically looking at Genesis 1:27, identity means that we're made in the image of God and that we are made male and female. So, Genesis 1:27 says, “So God made man in his own image, in the image of God, he made them male and female, he created them.” So, here we really want to introduce what does it mean to be made in the image of God as a social being, emotional being, a spiritual being, an intellectual being?

 

But also, what does it mean to be made with this physical body, male or female? And so, we introduced the reproductive system with an emphasis on puberty and human growth and development. And within that introduction, in that unit, I do something that's historically not been done in Christian settings, which is that I am teaching both the male and the female reproductive system to both genders.

 

And this next sentence may sound a little odd to some of your listeners. I know my students sometimes giggle when I say it, but I see the glory of God when I study the anatomy of both the male and the female reproductive systems and the intricacies of the design in order to see how they both work perfectly together. To me, it's awe-inspiring.

 

And so, I believe females have every right to see and begin to grasp the design of a male reproductive system. We use really basic anatomical diagrams for that. And then males equally have every right to see and begin to understand the basics of the female reproductive system using a diagram.

 

And my approach to that is clinical and scientific. It's definitely from an anatomy perspective. But I also make sure to take the time to point out some of, again, the beauty of the design.

 

For example, females, when they are born, are born with all the eggs that they will ever, ever have in their ovaries. And this design is super perfect because it means that you and I are not going to be 70 years old and find out that we're unexpectedly pregnant. Eventually, those eggs will run out about in our mid-40s.

 

And I always thank God for that design. It is a good design. Another one is just the female cervix.

 

The female cervix doesn't reach full maturity and protection until our early to mid-20s, where it then provides this wonderful protective barrier between the external and internal anatomy of the female reproductive system. When you explain things like that, I literally watch the kids have what I call light bulb moments, where they begin to see the why behind the design. And it's so important.

 

They've never taken the time to look at that and to hear it. In fact, I often call the reproductive system the forgotten body system. Christian kids in particular, they will get through a whole unit on the body having never talked about the reproductive system.

 

And if they are, then usually they're taught just about their own gender and they're missing that overarching beauty of what God designed. So, I think it's really important to highlight that reproductive system and for both genders. But in Unit 3, we move from the foundation of just gospel identity as made in His image and male and female into then specifically human sexuality.

 

And we use mostly Genesis 2 as we look through this about how God designed marriage and God designed sex, which is super clear in Genesis 2:24 and says, “Therefore, a man shall leave his father and mother and take hold of his wife and they will become one flesh.” And so, God's design for marriage and sex is clear that it's between a man and a woman. And also that that man and woman should follow the order of this verse.

 

First, that they leave and leaving might be dating. It might be courting. It might be pursuing a relationship.

 

However, we set those boundaries for our kids. And then second, that they would take hold and experience the intimacy and blessing of marriage, referencing that connection that God put Adam and Eve in through marriage. And third and last in that order, but that they become one flesh, which is referencing sex.

 

And so, after explaining that very good design, we transition into Genesis 3. And honestly, I love how Moses starts off the chapter here, Genesis 3, by saying, “Now the serpent.” And I always tell the kids that I hear that music in my head of dun, dun, dun. Like you just know that everything is going to change.

 

This good design is going to change and it's not changing for the better. And so, we start then looking at all the distortions that sin has caused within the overall topic of sex. And that means not just looking at premarital sex, but also adultery, pornography, sexting, gender identity, sexual identity.

 

And honestly, that list just keeps on growing every year that I teach. And so, then unit four, that last unit, is what I call the now what unit. In light of taking everything that we know now about gospel identity and human sexuality, I really encourage the kids to start really thinking about how they practically should be living in relationships with someone that they're attracted to and that they want to pursue.

 

And we use the entire Bible to help us answer that question. We actually end that unit with the question and answer panel discussion, using questions that the students have come up with through the course of that week. And it's always a sweet time of conversation focused on, again, gospel identity and human sexuality.

 

Laura Dugger: (13:06 - 13:19) Oh my goodness, that is so amazing and comprehensive. If parents are listening and they're wondering just about that diagram, what age do you recommend showing something like that? How would you respond to that question?

 

Janelle Rupp: (13:20 - 14:08) That's an excellent question. So, we're doing that in sixth grade. You know, it always depends on what your child's exposure and experience is, what their environment is, and their curiosity.

 

I think each child is so different. But in general, sixth grade would be age 11, 12, I think that's 10 to 12 for sure. But even you could probably push it as you're talking about puberty, which is where we interject it, just because it gives reference to what is a period for a girl?

 

Or what are the changes as a male that I'm having inside my body right now? Where's that coming from? So, I think starting as young as eight or nine to 10.

 

No later really than 12, I think would be really, really important.

 

Laura Dugger: (14:09 - 14:16) Thank you. That is helpful. I'm assuming that you're everybody's favorite teacher and that this is their favorite course to take.

 

Janelle Rupp: (14:17 - 14:48) We have a lot of fun. And I love when the kids buy into it. You know, sometimes I'll find that kids come in and they're a little hesitant to talk about this or they feel awkward by it.

 

But I think, you know, coming at it from both a clinical perspective, but also a biblical perspective, doing my best to keep them at ease and have fun as we have these conversations. Eventually, they loosen up over time. And it ends up being a really sweet time to talk about stuff that really, really matters in life.

 

Laura Dugger: (14:48 - 15:05) It does. And you're sharing so much truth. And it is the truth that sets us free.

 

And I can see where that would overcome so much confusion. So, let's even get really practical. When you're teaching these young people about sex, how do you define it?

 

Janelle Rupp: (15:06 - 19:12) This is such a great question. No one's ever actually asked me this. And I think it's so, so important.

 

The CDC definition of sex, it is very complete in its definition. It does a really good job covering what I believe are really important distinctives within that definition. And so, that definition is, quote, “Sex is defined as any part of your body and or specifically your reproductive area coming into contact with another person's body and or specifically their reproductive area.”

 

And one of the key points that I want to point out from this definition includes this phrase, reproductive area. I find my students have no reference for that, and even adults often don't. But simply put, the reproductive area is anything on the outside of the body that covers the reproductive system organs on the inside of the body.

 

So, this area actually extends from the belly button down to the genitals. A lot of times we only reference those genitals, but it actually extends belly button down to the genitals. And so, again, people are often surprised by that.

 

But at the same time, you know, whether it's called the reproductive area or maybe a private area, people do commonly recognize the importance of keeping that area safe and private. I often stick with that phrase, reproductive area, to reference the importance of trust when it comes to keeping things safe and private as a jumping off point to just help the kids see that a person is trustworthy if they keep you safe and if they keep things private. And again, such an important thing that we need to teach our children is that if someone pushes past what feels safe for us or pushes past areas on our body that are private, our children need to know, and we need to know those are not trustworthy people.

 

And furthermore, we should then give our children permission to tell someone that they do trust, hopefully us, but somebody that they do trust, somebody that keeps things safe and private about any person whose words or actions don't prove trustworthy. And as a side note, giving kids appropriate anatomical names is so important for this as well. But if you aren't using those terms and they don't understand it, we're speaking a language that they can't understand and maybe aren't able to convey.

 

And so, I think additionally, as children get older and you continue to reference that reproductive area as an area you keep private, I think it's super important to keep going back to theology and to Scripture. And in Genesis 1 and 2, we don't see anything having to be kept private because there was nothing that needed to be private. And in fact, the end of Genesis 2 says in verse 25, “And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.” My students giggle when we get to that verse because that sounds so foreign to them.

 

But reminding them that again, God's design was so good that there was nothing to be held back. They were fully intimately known by God and fully intimately known by each other and also without sin. But then when sin enters in Genesis 3, as Eve is tempted and enticed by the serpent, Adam is tempted, and enticed by Eve.

 

We see in that instant that sin changes every single thing because it causes Adam and Eve to then feel ashamed before God. They want to hide from God. It causes them to feel ashamed between each other.

 

They want to blame each other and it causes them to lose their sense of identity and purpose. And this is what happens to us, too, when sex and sin become entwined. It causes shame.

 

It causes us to hide. It makes us want to blame others. It causes us to question our identity and question our purpose.

 

But even though sexual sin changes the heart of man, it does not change the heart of God. And so, if our heart's desire is to love God in return for the love He's shown us, then our heart's desire should be to orient our lives around His design for our lives. And I would say even especially orienting our lives around His design for marriage and sex.

 

Laura Dugger: (19:13 - 19:23) Perhaps one of the most asked questions by Christian Singles is, How far is too far? So, how do you respond to that question?

 

Janelle Rupp: (19:24 - 25:50) Yes, I mean, this is the question that inevitably somebody's going to ask in my classes every single year. And no doubt, I mean, I think everyone has asked that question at some point or another in their lives. I certainly did.

 

And I was told that that was the wrong question. And I want to explain why first and then tell you how I answer it. But the reason was because when we look at Scripture in terms of holiness, which is having our heart completely for God versus idolatry, which means having our heart turned to something else, we see over and over and over in Scripture that we can't serve two masters.

 

We can't serve both holiness and idolatry. Matthew 6:24 is a great example. It's talking about the idolatry of money.

 

But it does say that whenever our heart is going after two things, we will either end up being devoted to the one and hate the other or devoted to the other and thus hate the one. And so, in other words, as we apply it to this question, we actually can't just straddle the line of both holiness and idolatry. And a lot of times that's where this heart of motivation of how far is too far is like, what line is the line that I can get to and still be holy?

 

But we really can't try to find and live on that line, because healthy and holy sexuality and sexual immorality doesn't exist. It is one or it is the other. And so, that's an important truth of Scripture.

 

I'm always in complete agreement with everything that I just said. But I also recognize that the Bible is really, really clear on how to give us direction in terms of setting boundaries and learning how to escape and endure temptation rather than to be enticed by it. And so, I teach my students a method to answer this question using an acronym called GRAY, G-R-A-Y, just to help them think biblically and critically about this question.

 

And actually it can be applied to any what I call the gray areas of life where Scripture may not specifically be very black and white about what we can and can't do. For example, another easy gray area topic within this same kind of umbrella idea would be dating. We aren't specifically told if we're to encourage our kids towards dating or courting or maybe arrange marriages.

 

Right. And yet I believe that there's four specific steps that we can use to determine the heart of God for our lives when it comes to gray areas of life. And so, the G in gray stands for go to God and it refers to prayer.

 

James 1:5 encourages believers to ask God for wisdom. It says, “He will give it generously to anyone who asks.” And I think praying for wisdom is such a foundational place to start on any topic, but specifically this one.

 

And then the R in the acronym stands for read the word. I always encourage my students and I would encourage parents as well, actively study the word of God, finding verses that give direction for decision making on this question. How far is too far?

 

One that I think jumped out at me is First Corinthians 10:23. As it's again, speaking of idolatry of the heart and it says, “all things are lawful, but not all things are helpful. All things are lawful. I can do all things, but not all things are building up. And so, let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor.”

 

So, when you apply that verse to this question of how far is too far, you begin to see that the question isn't so much is kissing OK, is anything done with our clothes on OK? But the question is more what behavior is helpful for me as I try to honor Christ with my body? What behavior builds up my desire to honor Christ with my life and or what behavior seeks to honor the person that I'm with?

 

And so, again, I think reading scripture can help us be able to know how to reframe that question and create boundaries. And then the A in gray stands for ask for advice. And here I encourage teens to seek out someone who is doing relationships well.

 

In other words, is there a couple that they admire, someone older than them that they admire, maybe a friend or sibling or a friend of a sibling, a teacher, a parent, a youth group leader? I found in my own life that God often gives wisdom through people like that. And actually, in the last 10 years, as I've been teaching this type of material, I found that asking couples that I respect this very same question.

 

How did you answer? How far is too far? It brings some of the best responses and encouragement that then I can share with my students to help them learn and grow.

 

So, I think asking for advice is a vital part of this. And then lastly, the Y stands for yield. It is the last step.

 

And yet it's such an important part of answering this question. Yield just simply means to wait. And you and I both know this generation does not like to wait.

 

Instinct gratification is their thing. And yet teaching them that there's so much value in yielding when we don't have clear answers to critical questions like this. So, I actually love to literally walk this out in front of the classroom.

 

I will demonstrate how, when I yield, I hold back on decisions such as how far is too far. I am always allowing myself room to continue to walk forward as I feel more certainty over the answer or I feel more led with the wisdom that God is continuing to give. However, if I walk forward without clarity, if I'm pushing boundaries that are perhaps lawful, I can.

 

But they're not to my benefit, not to my partner's benefit. Then it's very realistic that I am going to push farther than I am able to handle. It's going to bring harm to the relationship that I am in.

 

And I can't ever go back. The truth is that the line between being enticed by sin versus escaping and enduring the temptation to turn from sin. It's a thin line.

 

And so, helping teenagers with these four steps, I think just think more critically about where to set those boundaries is important. And then I do usually go on to encourage students to be really specific in writing out those boundaries. I'm a big fan that writing is remembering.

 

It stores in our long-term memory. And then to even share those boundaries in order to have accountability with them.

 

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So, now, it's time to nourish, restore, and glow. This next question may feel a little bit scary to ask because sometimes ignorance truly is bliss. But I think this is really helpful having you share statistics.

 

So, what are some statistics you think we need to be aware of to educate us on sexuality and youth in America right now?

 

Janelle Rupp: (27:49 - 29:55) Yes, you know, this is constantly changing. And so, I do look for these on the regular. And so, the ones I'm currently kind of using as I educate this year, the average age of first pornography exposure is currently 11 years old.

 

And 1 out of every 10 visitors to porn sites are actually under the age of 10. And 22% of those are regular visitors to those sites. It's not that they're just there once.

 

They're regular visitors. When you talk about that next age group, 11 to 17-year-olds, 53% of them are accessing pornography. In addition, 1 out of every 14 are receiving sexually explicit material through social media, through texting.

 

And 1 out of every 17 are sending it, which is an interesting thing. I always tell my students that means that as people are receiving it, they're sending it to more than one person. And so, you know, somehow we could think that it's a conversation maybe staying between two people.

 

And almost in every case, that is not the reality. 41% of teens are engaging in sexual behavior and oral sex and vaginal sex and anal sex and what I call outer course. Every 11 minutes, CPS finds evidence of sexual abuse claims.

 

And 2 out of every 3 of those are age 12 to 17 years old. And then lastly, and this is kind of newer from a research study that is an important one, but identifying as LGBTQ+, has actually risen in teens on average by 4% in the last 5 years. Girls being higher than boys.

 

Girls averaging about 5% increase and boys at 3%. And I think, you know, you give those 9 quick statistics, and I'll be honest, you know, even every time I have to say them, I get that sinking feeling in my stomach. It takes a lot to shock me after 10 years of working with teens on this topic.

 

But it never feels good to say those out loud. I think it just reflects such brokenness on behalf of our culture's view of sex and sexuality.

 

Laura Dugger: (29:57 - 30:09) Wow, that is sobering. And if that reality feels alarming or overwhelming to a parent listening, then how would you advise them to educate their son or daughter?

 

Janelle Rupp: (30:10 - 33:09) Yeah, I think the scariest thing is when we allow those feelings that we're having to really just cripple us and our ability to parent our children through them. I had a mom come up last year, and she said, I'm just really exhausted by it all. I'm tired of checking up on my kid.

 

And, you know, as a mom of teenagers, I hear that. I resonate with that. But I think we need to fight through those feelings and encourage each other to fight through those feelings in order to parent with intention and godliness when it comes to these subjects.

 

I developed this Remember Who's You Are curriculum for students, but I 100% believe that parents are to be the first go-to for our kids on these topics, whether they feel like they have all the answers or not. It's really not the role of the school, nor of the church, nor of the youth pastor. It is primarily and foundationally the role of parents, with ideally then the school and the church, you know, locking arms with parents, coming alongside with a similar message.

 

And so, when it comes to equipping parents, which is something I feel strongly about as well, in order to have these ongoing conversations, I break down educating parents with three regular statements to help them kind of combat those feelings of overwhelmed or anxiousness when it comes to these topics. And the first regular statement would be to regularly educate yourself. We can't teach what we don't know.

 

And so, parents need to have answers to questions, and I'm going to give a series of questions here that I think need to be answered as examples, but there's certainly more. But questions like, what is God's design? Again, what is the reproductive area?

 

What does sexting mean? What does sending nudes mean? Because that's becoming actually a more popular phrase right now than using the phrase sexting.

 

Why is not porn good for our brains if it actually keeps us from not having sex outside of God's design? That's a question I've been asked. And a follow-up to that, what does the Bible say about masturbation?

 

How does a condom work? I've been asked that one. What is the most popular sexual behavior among teens?

 

Those are some toughies. You don't just kind of like pop out an answer to that without dedicating some time to researching those answers. I don't think that this needs to be an overwhelming amount of time.

 

In fact, I actually just encourage parents to set aside 15 to 20 minutes once a week, maybe even once every other week, but just put it on the calendar so that you really devote yourself to that time. You know, I think we dedicate ourselves as parents to things we care about. And I don't mean to say this harshly, but many moms spend much more time exercising than they do in their Bibles and figuring out answers to these questions and apologetic type answers.

 

And parents, you know, we spend a lot of time talking to our kids about sports and grades. And yet these are topics that have lasting relational impacts for their lives, not just in our family, but in their family to come. And so, we have to be diligent to set aside time and regularly educate ourselves.

 

Laura Dugger: (33:09 - 33:38) Janelle, I love all of this that you're saying. And I just want to pause on this first step of educating ourselves as the adults and as the parents. So, listening to something like this, hopefully people feel encouraged already doing a great job educating yourself.

 

And so, let's just answer a couple of those questions because it can be hard to know where do I go to find out these answers. I'm careful to Google this because something may pop up that I don't want to see.

 

Janelle Rupp: (33:38 - 33:38) Right.

 

Laura Dugger: (33:38 - 33:46) So, let's go with two of them. One of them you said is what is the most popular sexual behavior among teens right now?

 

Janelle Rupp: (33:47 - 34:46) Yeah, I think that this one is a little bit shocking for parents. And they often are unaware of where their teens are at as they are pushing boundaries on sexual behavior. You know, when I was growing up, oral sex became, and that's mouth to genitals, but that became a really popular sexual behavior.

 

And I remember hearing people say, well, that makes me feel a virgin because I now have not had vaginal sex. And so, again, just continuing to push these boundaries. So, now today's teenagers are past oral sex.

 

That's become just something that's normal and acceptable. And the most popular sexual behavior right now that you'll actually they will talk about and do would be anal sex right now, which is the anal area, which is obviously I always point this out, not actually the reproductive system, but in fact, the expiratory or the end of the digestive system. But that is the most popular sexual behavior among teens currently.

 

Laura Dugger: (34:47 - 35:14) That is really helpful to hear. And even years ago, when I was practicing as a marriage and family therapist, something that we learned was that the rise in pornography exposure was also corresponding or correlating with this rise in pressure for women to engage in anal sex. And that was a lot of times where it was coming from.

 

I'm assuming very similar with teens.

 

Janelle Rupp: (35:15 - 35:59) Yes, absolutely. And as our culture continues to kind of push the envelope on trying to get teenagers and adults to accept pornography is a natural part of human sexuality. I think we will just continue to see that behavior pushed more and more and more just among teens and relationships in general, which is really devastating.

 

I think of so many of these behaviors that are very degrading, particularly to women, but even to men. And again, that women, that girls would be thinking that that is considered an acceptable part of a relationship is such a tragedy, really. And again, just so reflective of the brokenness of our culture.

 

Laura Dugger: (36:00 - 36:19) And you bring up another question I want to follow up with, Ben, because porn is so destructive for a lifetime. But how do you answer that question if parents want to educate themselves of somebody making an argument of why not pornography if it keeps them from engaging in penetrative sex?

 

Janelle Rupp: (36:20 - 38:18) Yeah, so, there's some excellent websites that you can find that talk about the damaging effects of pornography. And I found, you know, good resources. Anyone's welcome to email me.

 

I'll include that later. But to get some of those resources. But it really does change and alter, actually, the connections that are created in the brain.

 

And one of the, I think, more interesting studies on pornography in the brain, as they looked at men who were watching and engaging in pornography, it would continually light up an area of the brain and stimulate it, which is an area of the brain that is usually lit and stimulated when a man would use power tools. And that's concerning on, I think, a couple of levels. One, that is degrading.

 

And again, this human made in the image of God to something that is to be just used. Right. And then second, anytime we engage in pornography, we are we're engaging more with a screen than a person.

 

And so, that intimacy level, that is something that's so precious about sex. You know, sex isn't just for making babies. It isn't just for this intimate connection.

 

It isn't just for pleasure. But it is to be wholly represented, all three of those when we look at God's design. But when we engage with pornography, we're completely reducing it down to one person's pleasure, one person's use.

 

And so, again, those connections that are supposed to exist between people now exist between a person and their screen. And you'll see across the board, these are people who easily get addicted. It's meant to be addicted, experience increased levels of depression, anxiety, suicide.

 

Grades go down for teenagers. They lose friends. So much research showing the devastating impact of pornography.

 

Laura Dugger: (38:19 - 38:32) That is really helpful. Thank you for sharing that. And back to that greater question.

So, when you're advising parents to educate themselves, that's the first step. What's the next step in the process?

 

Janelle Rupp: (38:33 - 41:29) So, the second step that I recommend is to regularly to enter in. We aren't called to be our kids' best friends. We're called to step into their lives.

 

And that means stepping into friendships and relationships. It actually means stepping into their phone. You know, the amount of parents that tell me, I feel really bad because it's their phone.

 

And yet it's something that the parent is paying for, right? And so, that is a part of our lives, too. Theirs and ours.

 

But stepping into social media pages, their schools, their activities. And I think we don't have to be creepy about it. And that's what I think parents most, they're like, I don't want to creep my kid out or make them pull away.

 

I just think we have to be really intentional beforehand that we're developing this relationship of trust and communication. So, Josh McDowell has said rules without relationship equal rebellion. And so, the flip side of that is that when I have rules where I'm entering in and I have relationships where I'm entering in, that will equal trust.

 

And so, we need to keep entering in because we want to keep earning their trust. It goes both ways. We want that trust and communication.

 

So, entering in out of a desire for relationship, but also entering in with boundaries and rules for our kids in order to continue to build that trust between us. And then the third regularly statement is to regularly extend grace to yourself. Guilt and shame cannot go away without grace.

 

And a lot of us live with guilt and shame when it comes to these subjects. I often hear that that's one of the key reasons that parents will hesitate to talk to their child. They'll say to me, I don't want them to ask me about what I did.

 

And the only remedy for shame is grace. It's why God's plan to extend grace in sending Jesus. It's the best plan for our world because we're literally drowning in guilt and shame over these subjects.

 

And so, as parents, we first have to learn and work through accepting grace for ourselves. But for the purpose of extending it to others, it's very, very hard to extend grace when we haven't accepted it ourselves. And so, I think it starts with us.

 

And then again, it extends out to our kids. My husband and I were working through something that was happening with our teenagers this year. And I thought it was so profound.

 

As he said this statement, by God's grace, our kids will never get caught up in it. But it's also that same grace that will provide a way for our kids to get out of it. And so, we need to remember God's grace is greater than all of our sins.

 

And we can rest in that even if we don't do everything perfectly as a parent. Even if we forget to answer one of the questions. Even if our kids choose a path that is different than what we had taught them.

 

God's grace is greater than all of our sins.

 

Laura Dugger: (41:30 - 43:53) And I don't think we can hear that enough. So, thank you for that reminder.

 

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Well, Janelle, I think that you're so wise to teach parents that there's obviously no formula, and that's why it's so vitally important to keep in step with the spirit as we have these conversations with our children. But also, I'm sure that you've learned some wise and age-appropriate guidelines for teaching our kids about sex and sexuality.

 

So, will you share those with us for the different age ranges?

 

Janelle Rupp: (43:55 - 50:10) Yes, I think you're exactly right. There isn't a set formula because, again, as I mentioned before, every kid is different. Every experience and exposure is different.

 

But there are some general guidelines in order to, again, have these regular conversations with our kids. So, beginning ages kind of three to seven, I think focusing on what it means to be made in God's image, what it means to have a male part versus female part, how that kind of defines each gender. And understanding also what is private and safe within that is important.

 

So, one of the things that I did with my kids is very early on, as we were bathing in those ages, we would say, Thank you, God, for our fingers and our noses, and thank you, God, for our toes, and say, Thank you, God, for a penis because you're a boy, and thank you, God, for a vagina because you're a girl, and thank you for parts that we can't see inside of us. And I would name some of those parts as well, because I think it just helps them start recognizing, again, the beauty of what it means to be created by God. And also highlighting safe pictures and unsafe pictures, safe touch and unsafe touch, and stuff that I touched on before.

 

I think that's important as well. But then I personally believe this is one of the best ages to begin forming a framework on the sanctity of human life, that all life is created by God and for God in the image of God. And therefore, all life should be treated with dignity, respect, and love, regardless of size, regardless of gender, regardless of skin color, regardless of neediness or challenges.

 

It's a really natural and important tie-in to the subject at this age. And then when you get into that next age, age 8 to 10, I kind of think of it a little bit like preteen. Just continuing on with that conversation but bringing up this word puberty.

 

And kids always look terrified when I say that word. And I always tell them, then puberty is not a scary word. And I'm sorry that you have this vision that it is.

 

But puberty really is just human growth and development that make us male and make us female. And so, I think teaching our kids not to be even afraid of that word. There are parts that we need to keep private.

 

And yes, we don't need to talk about that with everybody. But these are not wrong or bad parts. They're parts that are created by God for God.

 

And God is a good God. And God is a sovereign God. And so, He created it for our good with us in mind.

 

And so, just continuing to engage and encourage our kids on those ideas at age 10. And then 10 to 12, and some educators would say sex should be introduced by age 10. I found that based on just, again, the exposure that my kids had, we had this type of a conversation as they headed into more age 11.

 

I think it for sure should be talked about before age 12. But at that point, you want to make sure you're including just a framework on what biblical sex and marriage is and what it's purposed for. Again, purpose for procreation, making babies, purpose for intimacy, even purpose for pleasure.

 

Listen, no 10 to 12-year-old is going to understand that part yet, which is fine because you're going to revisit it later when they're kids. This is a regular thing, right? But you want them to hear it from you.

 

You want them to hear it from you first so they understand that you are trustworthy. And so, they should be taught that sex is best seen in that context of marriage. One man, one woman that have left their father and mother, they've taken hold of each other in marriage.

 

And as a result, then a parent and actually ideally both parents, mom and dad, are able to help a child understand that framework and also recognize basic deviations outside of that framework. Not just that sex before marriage is outside, but also sex outside of marriage, the sexual and gender identity confusion. Anything that's falling outside of God's design for marriage and sex is a deviation from what he designed.

 

And then in that kind of 13 and older, recommendations that I make is always that you begin to establish a really good framework on how to have God-honoring relationships with someone of the opposite gender. I actually highly recommend Ephesians chapter 5 as you make this plan with your child. And a couple key points that it talks about within that chapter is that we treat those in the faith, those that share our common belief in Jesus Christ as brothers and sisters in Christ, in friendship and in a possible relationship, but one that has a lot of purpose and a plan in place.

 

But then we treat those who are not sharing our faith with love, but yet an understanding that those aren't relationships that I can pursue because I can't have an expectation that they are going to bring me closer to Christ, whereas the other should. And so, as parents within that, again, 13 and older category, you really need to start paying very much attention and entering in into those relationships that they have with their friends and their peers, because this is the second biggest impact maker on their decision-making next to you. Proverbs 13:20 says, “He who walks with the wise will be wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.”

 

I really believe in parents. If you need to change up their environment in order to help them form more God-honoring relationships in step with that Ephesians 5, we should not be afraid to do so. And again, continuing to expand on those other frameworks before, because regular conversations, but you're just getting into greater detail, more fine-tuning.

 

And I actually think at this age, too, you're digging deep into the truth of Scripture with your child. So, you let them come alongside you as you're learning how to answer these questions so that they can continue to refine who they are in Christ and to refine how to keep accountable with the Word of God and to refine how to set boundaries and how to navigate relationships in what I call purposeful dating versus purposeless dating. And purposeful dating, really just the overarching idea there is just that in the end, if it does end, that there may be sadness, but that there is also learning that comes so that I am lessening the brokenness and damage that may come as a result as well.

 

Laura Dugger: (50:11 - 50:30) And I love how also in your teaching, you lay out specific guidelines that don't fit within an age category, but they're more so for children who are at cell phone age or where they have unattended internet use. So, will you share some of those guidelines with us now, too?

 

Janelle Rupp: (50:31 - 54:54) Yes, for sure. You know, I always say when you introduce a cell phone to your child, especially one that has internet included with that phone, it does change a little of those guidelines that I just mentioned in that you need to increase the speed and the ages or decrease the ages, technically, in which you are discussing these things. Just because you're giving them a lot of access to things that will speak an opposite message from what you would be saying.

 

And so, when I encourage parents to look at a couple things as they're making the decisions about when to give a cell phone, I think you're specifically looking at does your child understand what it means to be indwelled by the Holy Spirit? And are they showing evidence of the fruits of his work in their lives? In other words, do I see evidence of the Spirit in the life of my child?

 

And so, that means does he or she recognize self-control? They know when they have it and they know when they don't. Do they recognize how to be a peacemaker?

 

Do they recognize how to be loving in what they say and what they do? Do they recognize and show faithfulness, kindness, gentleness, joy, patience, all of those fruits of the Spirit? And do they recognize and show that not just in person with someone, but even behind the screen when they don't see that person face to face?

 

And listen, no parent is going to say, oh, yeah, 100% of the time my kid is showing evidence of the fruits of the Spirit. But if I can honestly say yes, my child is showing that he is growing in evidence of that. And then you decide this is the age for him to have a phone.

 

Most educators, I'll just be super clear, most educators that work with teens, they recommend an age of anywhere from 13 to 15. But when you do give that, those same adults that work with those teens will also say the following, that a device should not be allowed in a private room or a private place. There should be a family charging place.

 

And we are on phones when we are around other people. And then that you should also have no phone zones for us. The dinner table is one of our very most important ones so that we are learning how to, again, continue to engage in conversation with one another without our phones, which is growing the relationship building that we want to grow.

 

And so, we hold to those boundaries. Understanding that an all access, unmonitored pass to the Internet does break down identity. It does work against.

 

And there's so much evidence to this. You know, even five years ago, I was less inclined to say hard and fast rules on the use of cell phones for teens. However, more and more and more and more, we continue to see research study after research study.

 

There's documentaries. Now there's reports about the dangers of the unlimited, unmonitored access to screens and how it hurts our kids emotionally, intellectually, socially, spiritually and even physically. I mean, I think of less sleep.

 

Right. Something that I've learned over these 10 years is that no kid stumbles into pornography with the use of their phone on purpose. So, so, so many times the first time is an accident and it happens again because that Internet use is unmonitored.

 

And so, here's another hard truth as well. It often also happens because someone else in the house or the family may be viewing pornography and it's in that browser history or it's in the logarithm of the device they're using. And so, understanding what drives that first use, but then the ramifications of that first look.

 

So, even if it's an inadvertent look, the hook to pornography is so addicting. And again, we talked about the damaging effects on our brains, our emotions and our relationship. So, I just think monitoring phones and Internet access is, yes, exhausting.

 

I mean, I feel it. But at the same time, the risk is so great that there's no way that we can stop while they are in our home. Because the worry and the regret of, oh, I should have done X, Y, Z, I think outweighs any type of temporary exhaustion for me in my day to have to check and monitor phone use.

 

Laura Dugger: (54:55 - 55:21) That's such a good point. It's going to cost us energy on one side or the other. But that is a wise choice to go with the hard choice first and hopefully more of an easier or more fruitful path.

 

When you reflect on our conversation so far, what hope do we all have for the gospel of grace impacting us specifically as it relates to our sexuality?

 

Janelle Rupp: (55:23 - 58:58) When I hear that question, I really love it. I instantly think shame is a result of sin, connecting that to the grace that is shown from our Creator and our Redeemer. And all of that, again, is really on display in Genesis 3.

 

And so, I want to take us there as I answer that question. I tell my students shame has two definitions. There is shame as a verb to shame someone.

 

And then there is shame as a noun to feel shame as a result of something that we have done wrong. Shame as a verb is something we never want to do. That's not a good thing, right?

 

But shame as a noun is actually a God-given gift that is meant to bring us back into relationship with God. And you look at how Adam and Eve in Genesis 3. It makes me chuckle, honestly, because as they feel the shame of their sin, their next step is to create garments to cover themselves.

 

And their shame was so great, but they went ahead and put these fig leaves on top of their bodies, these parts that now have to be private because of shame. And I just think to myself, those fig leaves had to have been so insufficient. We do this too, though.

 

We come up with ways to clothe ourselves to cover up the shame that we feel. It might be past sexual sin. It might be present sexual sin.

 

And we try our best to hide it. We try our best to make ourselves look presentable with our covering so that people won't see our sin and see our shame. I mean, all of that is that feeling that comes from that feeling of shame as a result of sin.

 

But what's beautiful when we look at Genesis 3, when Adam finally comes clean about his sin and shame. And I will say, listen, he doesn't do it perfectly because God has to literally say, where are you? Knowing where he is, but like basically saying, Adam, come out, come clean, right?

 

But as Adam does come clean about his sin and the shame that he's feeling, right? What does God do? God covers Adam and Eve with garments that He provides and He makes from the very first shedding of blood that we see recorded in Scripture.

 

And I'm doing it now. I weep every single time that I talk about this part, because God knows how to deal with shame so much better than we do. He knows how to deal with our shame in a way and cover us in a way that is a once for always.

 

And it's Genesis 3 is just a beautiful foreshadowing of how Christ is going to be sent. And there he comes in Matthew, right? To cover shame forever.

 

And so, as we remember that Jesus spilled his blood on a cross and then resurrected, conquering death and sin and the grave. We also get covered by that blood so that we no longer have to hide. We no longer have to feel that shame.

 

And we can stand, Romans 8 says, without condemnation. “Therefore, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ,” because Christ has covered us with garments completely and perfectly for forever. And so, our hope in this for our own sin, our past sin, any present sin, any future sin, and our hope for any sin that may rise up out of the heart of our child.

 

It's in the gospel that the gracious and loving covering that God gives us through Jesus is complete, making us right before God for all time.

 

Laura Dugger: (58:58 - 1:00:05) I love that so much, Janelle. And it makes me think of, I can't remember the research study, but they tracked people's brains when they were feeling like shame or regret or guilt. And found that sometimes people who struggle with anxious thoughts, that they have an over-functioning part of their brain where they can have those feelings of shame, sometimes when they haven't done anything shameful.

 

So, there's almost like a real guilt or a false guilt. And all of this conversation brings me to 2 Corinthians 7:10, where God addressed that first, because in the Bible it says, “Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.” And so, if we're going like even a level deeper to tease out that shame, sometimes we've felt that before.

 

Maybe, let's say, if something was done to us, and that's not the same shame that requires repentance, which is the godly sorrow. So, does that make sense?

 

Janelle Rupp: (1:00:05 - 1:00:28) Yes, exactly. That's exactly my point. And getting the kids to understand the difference between those shames but then seeing shame as not something that I have to push against.

 

Because if it is that godly shame that comes after me making a wrong choice, that is that shame to bring me closer to God in and through repentance. And again, that's a beautiful thing.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:00:29 - 1:00:39) It is, and it leads to freedom, which we may not think of in the moment, but that confession and bringing something to the light, that that is the best way to live.

 

Janelle Rupp: (1:00:39 - 1:00:40) Exactly.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:00:40 - 1:00:48) Are there any other important takeaways that you want parents and their children to be aware of as it applies to sex and sexuality?

 

Janelle Rupp: (1:00:49 - 1:02:44) Yes, you know, I think of two things here. The first being that, you know, sexual sin is really just one of many sins that Christ covers that he died for. You know, the blood of Christ covers the adulterer just as much as it covers the gossiper.

 

It covers the pregnant teenager and her boyfriend just as much as it covers you and I. And I think in the past, the church has overemphasized this sin and underemphasized others. But yet on the flip side, I mean, I think we really can't deny these are sins.

 

And even when we look at Scripture, it doesn't deny this. These are sins that carry a greater consequence and potential for enticing us towards, again, more habitual, ongoing sin in ways that just affect us deeper than other sins, which is why 1 Corinthians 6:18 says “Flee from sexual immorality.” And I'm going to pause there for just a second, because the Greek word for sexual immorality is the word pornea.

 

And you and I can't hear the word pornea without immediately thinking of porn. And so, I think it's fascinating that the root word for pornography is literally translated as sexual immorality. It's really an important thing.

 

But 1 Corinthians 6:18, again, it starts saying “Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside of the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.” And this means that sexual sin at its root is a problem of identity, which is, again, why you have to link that human sexuality with gospel identity.

 

Our aim cannot be for our children to make it to marriage having never had sex or never getting pregnant. To me, that's a low fruit. That is a low aim.

 

Our aim needs to be raising children with a gospel identity that is rooted in the creative and redemptive work of Jesus Christ and seeing the outgrowth from there.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:02:44 - 1:02:56) Wow. Well said. And if we boil all of this down, what is just one action step that you first recommend for anyone who finishes this message today?

 

Janelle Rupp: (1:02:57 - 1:04:19) Yeah, I'm going to give you a three-in-one just tying back to those three key regularly statements. One of the primary resources that I love to recommend in terms of educating ourselves is for parents to go to axis.org. That is A-X-I-S dot org, and sign up to receive their free Culture Translator weekly newsletter. And that will be sent to your email on a weekly basis for free.

 

And it gives a whole rundown of what's been happening in teen culture for that week. And just by simply opening up your email, you're going to start educating yourself. And they also have a host of other excellent resources and podcasts and a ton of material on their website that I would recommend.

 

But that's just one little step. And then for the enter in, I would recommend scheduling a date now. Put it on your calendar.

 

Find a time to take your child on a shopping date, an ice cream date, so that you can begin to enter into their lives and keep building that relationship with them. And then lastly, between now and that date, just open up God's Word. Reflect on the grace of God.

 

Let it wash over your heart. Let it wash over your mind. Get engaged with worship.

 

All of those will equip you well to do that hard work of entering in with your child when you meet them for that date.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:04:20 - 1:04:29) I've loved this chat so much. And if anybody's wondering about a follow-up place, where would you direct them to learn more from your teaching?

 

Janelle Rupp: (1:04:30 - 1:04:56) Well, right now, I can be reached by email. And that email is jrupp.rememberwhoseyouare@gmail.com which is the name of the curriculum.

 

As my program keeps growing, I do hope to have more resources available online. But for now, that's the best way to reach out to me.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:04:57 - 1:05:14) Wonderful. Thank you for sharing that. We will put it in the show notes for today's episode.

 

And Janelle, you're aware we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Janelle Rupp: (1:05:15 - 1:06:34) This is always one of my favorite questions to listen to on your podcast because I love hearing what everyone says. But I think my savvy sauce, when I look back over growth in my own life, is what I often reference, learning a high view of God. And that came out for me of intentionally learning at the outset how to study the Bible in a way that elevates who God is.

 

And I give a lot of credit to Jen Wilkins' books and would highly recommend those, specifically one called Women of the Word, which helped me to realize that the first question I need to seek out when I am studying my Bible is, what is this telling me about God? So, what started out as a way to study scripture just started infiltrating into the way that I live. And so, consistently asking myself the question, how can I make much of God and show a high view of who God is as I'm going through this circumstance with my family?

 

Or how can I show off this high view of who God is as I'm encouraging a friend through maybe a crisis or maybe just through something good? Paul says, you know, more of Christ, less of me. And I'm not perfect at remembering this all the time, but Lord willing, I will keep growing and continue to point others to a high view of God more and more and more.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:06:35 - 1:07:08) Love that. And Janelle, I think that it's going to be apparent that people can hear your smile throughout this conversation today. And I've really appreciated your motivational approach, and it's been inspiring.

 

And you're inspiring us to lean into our relationship with our children and with God, our designer, and have these meaningful conversations for everyone's betterment. And just knowing you, your devotion to your family is so apparent. And I just want to say thank you for being my guest today.

 

Janelle Rupp: (1:07:10 - 1:07:11) Thanks, Laura. It's been a privilege.

 

Laura Dugger: (1:07:12 - 1:10:55) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Holistic Family Wellness Plan Part Two with Emily Johnson (Episode 276)

Galatians 5:22-23 NLT "But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things!"

 

*Transcription Below*

 

Hi, I'm Emily Johnson. I am a homeschool mama of two beautiful kiddos, married to my high school sweetheart, and the owner of Gracious Healing, a online nutritional practice that works with families to get to the root of their health issues with a holistic view and approach. I deeply love Jesus and pursue Him in all that I do, including health.  After walking through decades of undiagnosed health issues, I was lead to the world of functional medicine and eventually into the holistic health world. After finding support for my body and that of my kids (who have been on their own health journeys) I was able to pursue further education and began working with clients on a 1:1 basis, to help them find the hope and health that I have found.

 

Emily's Website

 

Questions and Topics We Cover:

1. Another topic of health is pursuing the opposite of isolation, which is relationships. What does friendship do to us, even at a hormonal or bio-physical level?
2. Will you share all your wisdom on the topic of nutrition?
3. What other health topics have we not yet covered that you want to mention as we get started?

 

Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Sam Leman Eureka

 

Other Episodes Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce:

254 Raising Healthy Children with Dr. Charles Fay

 

Additional Savvy Sauce Episodes Related to Healthy Living:

3. Being intentional with our health, finances, and relationships with business leader, writer, and speaker, Elizabeth Dixon

14. Simple Changes for Healthier Living with Chick-fil-A Wellness Experts, Vasu Thorpe and Leslie Sexton

23. Nurturing Friendships With Harvard Graduate, Jackie Coleman

25. Leadership Principles and Practices with Former NFL Player, J Leman

81. Sacred Rest with Doctor, Wife, Mother, and Author, Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith

251. Wintering and Embracing Holy Hygge with Jamie Erickson

256. Gut Health, Allergies, Inflammation and Proactive Solutions with Emily Macleod-Wolfe

 

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website

 

Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!

 

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

 

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

 

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” 

 

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” 

 

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” 

 

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” 

 

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” 

 

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

 

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

 

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

 

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

 

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

 

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

 

*Transcription*

 

Music: (0:00 – 0:09)

 

Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:40) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

 

The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka.

 

Owned and operated by the Burchie family, Sam Leman and Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at LemanGM.com.

 

As I mentioned last time, my amazing guest, Emily Johnson, had so much goodness to share that we decided to split this episode into two parts, so I'm going to make sure that you first go back to part one before you listen to this episode today.

 

But I'm looking forward now to continuing the chat about nutritional benefits and soul benefits and relational benefits in our health and the health in our children with my returning guest, Emily Johnson. Another topic that's health-related is pursuing the opposite of isolation, which is relationships. So, Emily, what does friendship do to us or do to our children, even at hormonal levels and biophysical levels?

 

Emily Johnson: (1:40 - 8:39) Yeah, yeah. So, you know, when I was really, really, really sick, from a pretty young age on, and then I had kids really young, and so my kids had some health issues. I was sick. I felt so isolated, and I really, really, really was discouraged when people would speak about community.

 

You have to be in community, right? And all the sermons and different things, books, these great books are like, you have to be in community, and I'm like, I don't know how to do that with where I'm at. I don't have, I barely have capacity, right, to like feed my children and like get out of bed most days.

 

How in the world am I supposed to like go find community? And so, I think that, one, I always go back to, for those people who do struggle, and they are in a season where community is tough, right? I always, I love the saying, where the ideal lacks, grace abounds, and there's something beautiful that happens within that, right?

 

So just to speak to that, because I feel like so many women I walk with have had seasons in their life, or whether it's health-related, or their kids, or just there, you know. Mom home with four young kids, and they just don't have capacity, or their single mom with four kids, and they're working full-time. Right, they just don't have great capacity for community. I always want to plug that reminder in that there are seasons, and God's grace always abounds beyond what is ideal. But then we take it too ideal, right?

 

And we say, what does that actually look like? And we were made for community, right? We see all the fun videos of the little kids who are like the babies who were in the womb together, right?

 

And you come out, and they're still like touching, right? We were made for connection. There's something really, really amazing that happens from a cellular level.

 

When we are, when we are hugged, right, you see some of those neurosciences of like, you need to hug for six seconds a day, because it'll increase your endorphins, you know, and so there's this beautiful thing. There is, in certain science communities, there is a thing called biofield, right? And so it's kind of this idea that from six feet out from me in any direction, I kind of have this like space, like there's a spatial awareness that most of us have about six feet like outside of our bodies.

 

And when you kind of like, you know, when you're like somebody walks up behind you, and you just know somebody's behind you, even though you haven't turned around or heard them necessarily, but there's just this awareness that they're there. And that is just, I think, so ingrained in who we are to be in community, because we actually have been created not for isolation, but we've been created even with this biofilm biofield idea that we actually get to when people are around us, right, there's an energy that happens, right? When my kid is sick, there's like this energy transfer that happens when my kiddo is sick, and their energy is low, their overall body is just depleted, right?

 

When I hold them and touch them, there's actually can be like this cool transfer that happens from an electrical perspective that actually boosts them back up, right? Why do we hold babies skin on skin? Because there is that super, super crucial need for connection.

 

One of my favorite studies I always refer to is a heart map study, where they took babies and mom, and they hooked mom and baby up to like heart monitors. They had mom just kind of like go through her natural day. Right, really smiley, happy, and they kind of watch baby match mom's heartbeat completely like in sync. And then they said, “Okay mom, like start running, like don't change your facial expression or your tone, but start running through all the like scary things that you have going on, right, and all the worries and fears and all the things.”

 

And they watch mom's heart rate level start coming up, and then they watch baby's heart rate level start coming up, right? Like we were just designed from the womb to connect with people. Then they found those who they ran some studies on who had moms who were super depressed, right? They weren't in connection.

 

They had whatever lives, whatever circumstances led to this, those kiddos didn't have the kind of intense one-on-one connection, maybe that another kid did. And just watching that those kids had a harder time empathizing and being around other people, right? So, like this idea that from the womb we were designed to be connected to one another, that there is something ingrained in our soul, right?

 

That the Lord put there that deeply, we deeply want community, but beyond community we want to be known and seen and loved, right? And obviously the ultimate desire is to be known and seen and loved by God the Father, but at a lesser level like we have been created to see that in one another and champion one another and encourage one another, right? One of my favorite Bible stories is when Moses is holding his hands up, right?

 

And as long as his arms are up, the Israelites are winning, but the minute his arm starts to fall, and then you know you have Aaron and her have to come lift his arms up, and he sits down and they're the ones holding his arms. And I just think that is such a picture of when we have this vision of what God's called us to, and kind of whether that be a mom or a specific vocation or a specific ministry, when we have been called as women to do that, but yet there's these seasons where we're like we're still trying really hard to do that, but I'm so wiped out and tired, right? You need those people around you who are going to go hold your arms up so that the battle doesn't break.

 

The battle is not going to stop whether you drop your arms or not, it's still going to keep going. And so, when we look at that from just again, like a metabolic perspective, we see that heart rates come down, right? We see someone super, super anxious in isolation, they go into a community where they feel seen and known and loved, and their body comes into this beautiful, restful, parasympathetic state, right?

 

I would say a caveat to that is a little bit of picking your community well, because I think that the opposite is true. You go into a community where everyone's naggy and negative and discouraging, and you will walk away feeling gross and weary and tired, right? And it doesn't necessarily...

 

Good community is what again boosts your soul, but it actually... I had a client, it was my favorite story, is we were having a hard time getting her blood sugar stable, and we were kind of trying all these things, and then she went and hung out with her girlfriend, and she was super tired that day, it had been a really, really stressful week, goes and hangs out with her girlfriend outside, right? Letting the kids play at the park, and that's all she did.

 

And her blood sugar, she took her blood sugar, and her blood came perfectly back into balance, right? And just, we need community for every metabolic process, honestly.

 

Laura Dugger: (8:40 - 9:27) That is incredible, and it is such a powerful truth, because I'd love to also talk about handling, managing, minimizing stress, which is important, but I think the enemy, our enemy, Satan, wants to convince us that if you're stressed, just power through, whereas like you said, God's inviting us into community with Him and with others. He's created us to need both, and that that is even more important, that trumps the stress and may even help us diminish the stress. So, I know it's not helpful for us to hear, you just need to lower your stress in your life, but how can we actually do that, and why is it beneficial?

 

Emily Johnson: (9:28 - 14:18) Yeah, so, we talked a little bit earlier about just kind of the idea of fight and flight, and I think one of the things that you see a lot in the world of holistic medicine is just looking at the nervous system. Because if I, everything that we're kind of bringing in is create, like our brains are always hyper vigilant and always looking at, is this safe? Is this not safe? So, you have somebody who is always stressed, always anxious, always running, running, running, running.

 

Your brain is kind of almost starting to get primed to think everything is dangerous, everything is a lie, and everything I need to be afraid of, right? And so, when we're constantly in that place, you never really, you're sleeping, just because you go to sleep, people are like, I sleep six hours a night. I'm like, you're unconscious six hours of the night. Are you actually getting restored sleep?

 

Or are you just running, running, running, and then you go to sleep. Yeah, you're unconscious, because your body's like, I'm exhausted, but is your mind actually calming down? Is your heart rate coming down, right? And so, when you look at the overall, every process of the body, there's so much that is related to nervous system, right?

 

Your breath, like we're not thinking about our hearts beating right now, or our lungs opening and closing. But our nervous system is, right? Our nervous system is always assessing and communicating.

 

And so, every sound we hear, every noise we come in contact with, every smell, light, right? All of it is having to be processed through that. And so, when you look at that, I would say there's a lot of stress in life that we can't control.

 

We're always looking, it's kind of like, you know, going on a bear hunt when they're like, we can't go under it, we can't go over it, we have to go through it. There's a lot of stress in life. That we just have to plow through.

 

I can't help my special needs kid, like I can't take that away, right? I can't help my marriage that's struggling. I can't necessarily run, I can't just like move around, you know, the financial struggles or whatever.

 

I can't always control everything, but I often go back to, but what can we control? Because when we kind of get into a place where we understand, I can't heal or be functionally healthy if I don't feel safe. So, do I feel safe, right?

 

And again, I can't control everything, but I often can sit with Jesus, and he will help me change the perspective of it. And so, when we look at how we, right, stress is going to put a huge burden on every organ system. Stress is going to put a huge burden on our adrenals.

 

Most of us know that kind of specifically, but it's going to put a huge stress on our nervous system. And so, where we can minimize stress, where it is within our control is always the best place to start, right? Again, sometimes simple things like unplugging your Wi-Fi will limit your metabolic stress, eating protein, right?

 

Eating good whole foods, not being dehydrated. Those are all things that are going to limit. Those are all most of the time within the stress that we can control, right?

 

I can control being on my phone, which has crazy blue light. And then right before I go to bed, which is going to like create a whole issue with my circadian rhythm. Like I can control putting my phone away.

 

I can control how I breathe and how I get outside. And so, minimizing stress, being in community with friends that are encouraging you and lifting you up, like those type of things are all things that we often can control at some level in order to help minimize that stress that way. Because the point I think of is the whole of health in general, right?

 

We know 2 Corinthians chapter four is my favorite because it's like we're all wasting away and this body is going to waste away. So, what is the point of this, right? And the point of it, I believe, is resilience to some degree.

 

Do we understand the processes of our body? Are we actively working to create some resilience? So, things don't knock us out, right?

 

You have some people, they'll get real sick, or they'll get into a car accident or something. And it's not major from the world's perspective, but metabolically it is enough stress and trauma that their whole system shuts down. Right?

 

Like the goal is that we are always renewing our spirit, but we're always working towards resiliency. And so, the more we can minimize stress, the better resiliency, every part of our body from a nervous system perspective, all the way down to a cellular perspective, it's going to function better and have more resiliency. So, when stress does come that we can't control, we can handle it better and not, it doesn't blow us over so quickly.

 

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Okay, Emily, everything you've said so far is gold. But there's a huge piece of our health, which is nutrition. And as we're training our children on healthy nutrition, I just love to hear all your wisdom on this topic.

 

So, take it where you'd like.

 

Emily Johnson: (16:00 - 24:16) Yeah, okay. Nutrition is part of my story, is actually nutrition was the thing that got me in the store that I write. I had so many crazy health things.

 

I remember asking a doctor at one point, like, will, if I change my diet, will that help? And he was like, no, right? That's not going to help your seizures. That's not going to help your allergies. That's not going to help all the stress, right? And all the things that you have.

 

And, which, by the way, right, to kind of go back to the stress thing, the amount of times that people who are really truly unhealthy are told it’s just in your head, it's just stress, right? It's, it's crazy. So, I feel like there's that level of like, do what you can to deal with the stress, but also, you're not crazy.

 

If something doesn't feel right, it's probably not right. And you're probably not just so stressed that right, there's a level that is true that we can control, but then sometimes it has nothing to do with what you're doing. Just a little snippet in there.

 

Just because I think that can be so helpful for moms to hear sometimes it's okay. It's not all in your head, you're not making it up. But when we look at nutrition, when I started diving into it, I always joke that I was going to write a book that said like, it started with paleo, right?

 

Because we dove into this world of paleo. And all of a sudden, all these symptoms that I had been told I was going to live with forever, all of a sudden started disappearing. And I was like, I don't need my inhaler anymore.

 

I don't have seizures anymore. I'm sleeping better. I feel better.

 

My puffiness is gone, like all because I changed my diet like this. Why in the world did no one tell me this sooner? Right?

 

Which is crazy. So, when you look at again, nutrition, and we're saying what did God give us and all the different levels of nutrition, you can look at macronutrients. So, that's your protein, your carbohydrates and your fat.

 

Those when we look at metabolic processes, those are like our big three that we want to get in every meal to kind of keep that fire burning, right? So, from a metabolic perspective, you want metabolism is so huge in hormones, metabolism is huge in our weight, and how we feel and just energy levels in general. And so, when you're getting good protein, good carbs, good healthy fats.

 

And obviously, with all of these, right, there can be not so great proteins and not so great carbs, right? We're like, “Oh, I ate a cinnamon roll.” I'm like, well, not probably your best carbohydrate.

 

But so, when I talk about these things, what I'm always meaning is God made food, right? God food that is in its closest to full nature, right? And obviously, we've altered food over the years.

 

But to the best of our ability, what grows in the ground, what grows on the earth is what I'm talking about. I'm not necessarily processed food, even things like Siete chips, right? Those things are like, yes, their ingredients are better, but still processed, right?

 

Crackers, I don't care if they're gluten free, they're still processed. And so, when we talk about this, we're talking about just whole food, God food, right? And so, it doesn't matter what you have doesn't matter, the health situations, you have kind of the background you're coming from, everyone can on a fundamental foundational level, look at their nutrition and say, food is the building block to my health.

 

So, when I give again, we kind of talked a lot about nervous system and information, when I give the body good nutrition through what I'm eating, it is going to help every cell of the body right function and thrive. And when we're getting those good nutrients in, you're going to get all those you're looking at the big macros, but then we're looking at the micronutrients, you know, so, a lot of people talk about magnesium and calcium, right?

 

And so, all those are, you know, selenium, vitamin D, right, not necessarily synthetic form, but in so many of our foods, these nutrients are in abundance when you eat whole foods, right.

 

And so, I feel like for so many people one of the best things because food can also become this really, really, really scary topic. I always say if you want to tick somebody off, talk about their money and talk about what they're eating. Because everyone's like, now I'm mad.

 

Now you're not my friend, right? How dare you talk about what I'm putting in my mouth. And I think there's a really interesting spiritual component to what we see all throughout Israelites, right?

 

And just how they grumbled because their bellies were driving the train, right? Like God is literally giving them manna from heaven, his glory, like food, the angels food is on the ground. And they're like, I want to go back into captivity because they had leeks and watermelon, right?

 

And it's like, this isn't a new thing. Food is really hard and can be really scary for people to talk about because we are really honestly controlled by our stomachs more than most of us would like to admit. And so, when we look at food in general and nutrition, and we're being really honest with ourselves, right?

 

We don't want to be in a place of fear. That's I think the biggest thing with all the holistic space, just like this health realm is sometimes we trade like Western medicine for which we're afraid, like we're fearful and that like I, you know, we have to take antibiotics. We don't want to get, um, we don't want the strep throat to get out of control.

 

But then we run to this holistic side and we're like, well, I don't want to take the antibiotics. I'm afraid my gut microbiome is going to be all mess. I'm like either side, you're still walking in fear.

 

God's word tells us to not be afraid, right? This is the point of this is, is to empower us to make us stand in awe of our creator who made all of this in such abundance for our good. He created all of our bodies, right?

 

He created every mechanism, every cell. So, of course he's going to give us the nutrition in the food that we eat in order to help support those natural functions of the body when we eat food that he's created. Right.

 

And so, I say that with food because I think most people we can dive down, right? Some people do need very specific diets for short period of time to create better function in their body. Maybe they have an overgrowth of something and certain foods are not helping them kind of achieve that overall kind of thriving stability.

 

But for most of us, my favorite thing when it comes to nutrition is to go back to Philippians chapter four, right? What is good? What is true?

 

What is lovely? What is pure, right? And when we're focusing on that part of nutrition, we are just undone, right?

 

How do you combat fear? You stand in awe. And when we can stand in awe of how God created an egg, right?

 

Like we get to consume an egg, and an egg isn't just protein fat. It also is vitamin D and selenium, right? And all these other micro macro nutrients that we get to consume.

 

And all of a sudden, right, we're taught to sit and pray and thank God for our food. And we're like, but what does that mean? We're just pausing and taking a deep breath, which is there is some really interesting health studies that have agreed with that, right?

 

And they're like, you need to pause and breathe every time before you eat to better further digestion. But what are we actually doing? Are we teaching our children, like, look at this asparagus and this chicken breast that you get to eat?

 

Do you understand how intentional our God is that he made this food with such nutrient packed availability for you to be able to function right within your body. So, when we look at every part of the body, every process of the body, we need good information, right? Good food to be able to come in to support that.

 

And I think most people, when we use nutrition, you don't need your multivitamins, you don't need some of these things like food is fundamental. I always say supplements should be supplemental. They're supplemental, getting you where you need to go.

 

But nutrition is the foundation, the building blocks the road, right? It's paving the way to health.

 

Laura Dugger: (24:17 - 24:40) Okay, that is so well said. But then I'm even thinking, what are some examples of you've talked about the egg and the chicken and asparagus. So, will you share maybe we'll start here a way to get our kids involved.

 

I know you've shared something that you do with the farmer’s market. Can you tell us that story? And then maybe give a few ideas for healthy snacks or meals.

 

Emily Johnson: (24:41 - 31:13) Yeah. And I do like Instagram, my website, I have I feel like I have lots of information. And honestly, maybe I could even share with you some of the handouts that I give and you could just put it in people are welcome to have them.

 

Because I love getting kids involved. It depends on your kiddos age depends on how you want to approach this potentially, right. So, when my kids were super little, we all we did a lot of rainbows, like, are we eating the rainbow?

 

And so, you know, we'd have like, I have a chart that we laminated. And you know, we'd be like, okay, here's your day how you know, maybe you get a sticker at the end of the day or something if you ate the rainbow. And so, that would be for younger kids.

 

That's super fun. Sometimes for older kids, kind of that who need to say like, high school necessarily, but when they're kind of in the like, end of elementary, maybe junior high ish, depending on how they're wired, and depending on parenting skills, I will have some other ones that are like, if you eat protein, fat and carb, now you can have maybe another choice that you would like, right. So, for my daughter, that might look like you need protein carbs, you know, like, let's say you're going to have protein, which is, again, I have some great handouts that are like, here's kind of a chunk of protein, right.

 

So, that might look like steak, eggs, or chicken, or ground beef, or, you know, bison patty, or we actually love Force of Nature, they make a really great ancestral blend. So, you're getting like liver, heart, all that stuff, and it's ground in ground beef. So, your kids don't necessarily know they're eating organ meats, but we'll do like little patties or something, right, keep it simple.

 

I feel like some of the most challenging things with nutrition is people want to really overcomplicate it. And if you're just thinking protein, animal protein, you get one of those, right, you grab on to like, maybe it's like, okay, now you need some salad, which is going to be, you know, maybe some less of good carbs, because you're throwing in zucchini and cucumber, and you're making a green salad, you know, with a few nuts in it, you know, and drizzling some olive oil on it. homemade dressings, I think are probably the probably the most complicated thing that I get to, just because it's easier to leave out all the bad ingredients in homemade dressing.

 

But there's some decent dressings out there, right? So, that's your fat. So, you do all that.

 

And then I'm like, now, if you want, like, maybe we'll have little snacks around the house that might be like, some healthy chocolate versions, right? And it's like, now, if you want a treat, you can, but you have to eat protein, carb and fat first, right? That type of thing.

 

So, there's different checklists, different things that you can do. We years ago, when my kids were super little, we actually started a list. And there, I think Dr. Walls is the one I originally got this from where she was like, you need to eat close to 300 different varieties within a year, right?

 

Because, again, kind of thinking back before refrigeration, before we were able to cart food places, we would have eaten a variety based on what was local to you that was growing in this season. Rright, which meant we didn't eat the same thing every single week, we had a lot of variety, I think diversity within the diet is also so important. Again, I think it's a further down the road, right? So, if you're like just starting in this journey, just getting yourself to whole foods is a great place to start.

 

If you're further along, the next thing we do is diversity, how many different foods. So, our goal one year was to get 300 different varieties, which doesn't sound like a lot until you actually start writing it down. We're like, cucumbers one. Okay, we eat a lot of cucumber, right?

 

Okay, tomatoes. Okay, well, that's two, right. And then so, one of the things that we had done when they were little was, we would go to the farmer’s market.

 

And we would kind of think, our area and I think a lot of areas are really increasing in kind of this idea of farmers market’s over the last few years, which is really cool. My kids were really little, we had one farmer’s market, like, and so, we would go there once a week. They had to pick out one new vegetable or fruit that they had never tried before, whatever it looks like, right. And if they could get it on a color of the rainbow that was hard to consume, right, there's some colors of the rainbow, like purple, that's not always super easy to necessarily consume outside of grapes, you know, or any plant.

 

And they're like, Okay, what other purple options are there. And so, if you could find purple cauliflower, right, then that was like, the best thing because you found a color and a new food, maybe that we hadn't tried. Purple potatoes, right, if you could try even if it was like a food that we already had tried, but it was a different color of that food, right carrots, different things like that, that you could have different varieties of color, then that would count as well.

 

So, that was kind of one way that we and it's works outside of farmers markets are just going to the grocery store going to a different grocery store. And looking Is there anything in the produce section that we haven't tried before. It can be a good place start sometimes you have to like Google what in the world it is. How you write that was like our, we started off like I remember googling, how do you cut a mango, like I didn't even like I did not grow up eating this way. And so, everything was very new.

 

I didn't know how to eat anything but iceberg lettuce or canned corn as a vegetable. And, you know, learning and so, again, bite sized pieces, right? Easy plus one, my kids do classical, we do a classical model for education.

 

And I love one of the things they had done when they were little. In their writing was an idea of easy plus one. And I feel like this always applies to almost everything in life.

 

But nutrition is one of those where I'm like, don't get overwhelmed. Because it took me and my family years to get to where we are. It wasn't like an overnight thing, right?

 

It's been a 13-year journey for us, which sounds like a lot when you actually like look at what we eat. And you're like, it took us 13 years to change out things. And it's always evolving, because my kids are older.

 

So, now they're aware of things they weren't aware of when they were little. But easy plus one, right? What do we already have, swap it out for something new.

 

It doesn't have to be overwhelming.

 

Laura Dugger: (31:15 - 33:12) I love that easy plus one. And I'm even thinking of all these fresh ideas of how I plan to incorporate this into our homeschool because some of our daughters are interested in going on with culinary arts, and they love being in the kitchen. So, I think that's a great way to involve them.

 

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But as you're talking about swaps, this is just kind of my personal journey this year.

 

I feel like God doesn't always give me a word of the year. But this year, I felt like he gave the word nourish, and even added to that as the year went on, nourishing and flourishing. And food is a big piece of that.

 

But also just tied in with all of this and helping our kids grow up in a healthy environment. What are some other product swaps that would be helpful for things that we're putting on our body, maybe makeup if they're older, or laundry detergent and different things like that.

 

Emily Johnson: (33:13 - 36:27) Yeah, I would say we I always feel like my encouragement is to start with what goes on your body. Right, sometimes and again, there's always grace. So, sometimes it's like just stop burning the candle in your house.

 

That's creating actually more toxins, it smells nice. So, anything that smells like fake fragrance is probably not going to be helpful to your system. But I would say that my next favorite is what are we putting on our body?

 

So, that's shampoos, conditioner, deodorant, lotions, makeup, laundry detergent, right, anything that would be like touching our skin, then the next thing out of that would be, I think there's a lot of fascinating information that has surfaced the last five years of just the importance of undergarments and what it does to the endocrine system. When we're not, you know, putting natural fibers on our skin, we're putting all these synthetic fibers. So, again, it's not like you can financially most of us go out and swap out everything.

 

And sometimes I still, like my girlfriend, I was just talking like, I kind of miss Tide. I miss the smell of Tide deodorant. Like I haven't used it for years.

 

But I still like there's something like emotional pride just from childhood that like just feels clean. Even though I know right that it's not. But when you look at all these different chemicals on the body, so, again, when we talk about stress, when we talk about nourishing, right, anything extra that goes on your skin absorbs, right, we forget that it's the largest organ of our body.

 

And it is absorbing all sorts of chemicals and endocrine disruptors, and creating more stress on our bodies, right, clogging our pores. When you think of that the lymphatic system, the lymphatic system is a huge system within the body that will push toxins around and help drain the body of kind of this overburden of toxic waste. And one of the biggest places, well, the biggest places for lymphatic movement is around your armpits, right?

 

And what do we do, we put on deodorant, which actually then doesn't allow our arms to sweat and to get that toxin out. And the next part is around the groin. And it's like, okay, what are you putting around the groin?

 

Are you putting synthetic fibers? Are you putting plastics? Are you putting things, toxins within your laundry detergent, right, that is then creating a disruption, right, the body's trying to release toxins.

 

And now you're either not letting it sweat it out, or you're actually putting other chemicals in those places where it's going to absorb even more, and make that lymphatic system even more backed up. So, I would say, a home like cleaning supplies and candles and fragrances, those are all really important. But again, if we're starting with absolutely ground zero, I tend to go what's on your skin first, what's touching your skin, moving away from that stuff is super helpful.

 

There's so many different apps, you know, I we started with, you know, the IW or the Oh, my goodness, I totally blanked on what that is called. The app. Oh, my goodness.

 

Oh, well, it'll come back.

 

Laura Dugger: (36:27 - 36:59) Maybe say more about I wonder if one that I've started with a girlfriend of mine, Rachel Allen, actually, her husband was a previous guest on The Savvy Sauce, Chris Allen, but she's very healthy and has been on this health journey for a while. And she showed me the Yuka app, the YUKA, which is great. It's she said, it's not perfect.

 

It's just helpful. It doesn't tell you if there's seed oils in food. So, that's a bummer.

 

But with products, if I am out shopping, and I scan a few, it'll tell which is a better option.

 

Emily Johnson: (37:00 - 37:56) Yeah, so, that's a good one. IWD was the one that we originally started with, you know, 10 years ago. And so, that can be helpful when you just don't know, right?

 

And you're in the store. And you're like, I always buy this, you know, and you kind of scan it and see what pops up. But that can be helpful.

 

But I would say in general, again, looking at just reading ingredients, if you can understand the ingredients, and you're like, oh, this is beef tallow, and, you know, some essential oils, and baking soda, right? Like, that's probably okay, you know, versus the like, I don't know these ingredients. These are a long list of ingredients.

 

And I have no idea how to even pronounce them. So, apps can be helpful. My preference is to encourage us as much as we can, right, to get away from electronics.

 

And I think that sometimes it's hard when we're like, so, scanning apps can be helpful. But also, just reading ingredients can be helpful.

 

Laura Dugger: (37:59 - 38:12) That's great. And again, just to kind of jumpstart us, do you have any favorite brands to recommend? Or even on your website?

 

Is there a place where you talk about swaps that we can link to?

 

Emily Johnson: (38:13 - 39:44) Yeah, so, on my website, and I'm constantly trying to update this, as best I can, because again, a lot of this started for me almost 13 years ago. And so, so much has changed in 13 years. So, I'm constantly trying to stay up with the new things, because we all know that anytime something becomes a buzzword, all of a sudden, all these companies jump out of the blue.

 

We're in the world of the and are they good, you know, and so, being able to kind of, obviously, now, there's so much more happening so quickly. So, on my website, I have a blog post that's just like getting started. And that I just keep trying to add to it.

 

I find books or information or podcasts that I think are helpful in this realm. It kind of breaks it down. Do you want to read a book?

 

Do you want to listen to a podcast? Do you want to me and some of my girlfriends did like a whole series on different parts of the body and just different things. And like, that's all links there.

 

So, just whether you want to watch something, read something, listen to something, there's lots of information there. And then on my website, I have lots of different like my favorite things. And those are just some of my favorite products.

 

There's great products out there just because it's on not on there doesn't mean it's not great. But there's a lot of products that I really used to love, and that they don't make the products either the same that they used to or they have disbanded over the years, right. And so, just because it's not on there doesn't mean it's still a lot of great products.

 

But I try to update that if I find something I really love, I will try to update those two spots on my website.

 

Laura Dugger: (39:45 - 39:56) Well, definitely want to link to that in the show notes. But can you give us your website name and just tell more about in general all the work that you do and what you have to offer if we want to follow up after this conversation?

 

Emily Johnson: (39:56 - 41:56) Yeah, so, my website is mygracioushealing.com. Between my website, I have an email list. But then I also do a lot on social media, Instagram specifically.

 

So, my handle over there is gracious.healing. Try just to give lots of tips and lots of trying to reclaim some of that social media space to let it be more encouraging and not fear based. But hopefully, try to kind of clue people in on just things that I'm learning and things I see in my clients. I do have a one-on-one practice called gracious healing.

 

And it is we just work bio individual with, I started off with children, and then I've obviously moved to moms. And now I'm kind of treating most whole families. But I love working with families just because it's sometimes easier because you already know so much history and everything.

 

But our goal in doing one-on-one nutrition clients is we're looking at lifestyle history, symptoms, we're looking at personality, we're looking at all the ways God created you, and where is their dysfunction on labs? Or, again, we're not thriving, right? Someone might be tired, but what does that mean?

 

Is it a soul issue, a heart issue, a mental issue? Is it you're not getting enough rest? Do you need more nutrition, that kind of stuff.

 

So, we look at all of that, and really holistically, and then we break down a road plan, how are we going to get you there, you're in the driver's seat, I'm just trying to help you navigate what nutrition might you need, what kind of steps might you need, in terms of supplementation, diet recommendations, lifestyle pieces. And we kind of address all of that with kind of a game plan of follow ups and what that looks like. My goal is for people to not need me forever.

 

So, our goal is to help as much as clients want to be discipled and learn all of this, so that then they can get to where they feel they're truly thriving, and then they can run off into the world that God has for them.

 

Laura Dugger: (41:56 - 42:24) I love that. Thank you for sharing that. And I will definitely link to that in the show notes.

 

And I just have a couple more questions for you, because I want to make sure, even as you talk about meeting with your clients, and it's very bio individual. So, maybe there's not an answer to this. But is there anything in general, any other health principles or even supplements that you do see, generally speaking, this would be beneficial to everyone?

 

Anything that we haven't covered yet?

 

Emily Johnson: (42:25 - 45:21) Yeah, so, I'd say at this point, the only two supplement companies that I feel like can be pretty helpful for most people. One is called Core Formulas. They are just kind of basic, like nothing they're doing is crazy detox, nothing they're doing is like killing anything.

 

They're just really supporting the body from a nutritional standpoint. So, you're thinking drainage, gut support, and vitamin support. So, they're pretty basic companies, like most people kind of look on their website, determine if that's something that would be helpful for them.

 

And then the other one would be body bio. So, BodyBio is a great company that focuses specifically on cellular health. And so, you're going to have electrolytes, you're going to have some good kind of fatty acids, right?

 

When we look at the cell, we need four to one omega six to omega three, a lot of us focus on omega three, because they're just aren't great sources for omega six. And so, they make some really great companies that really look at the cellular level, the mitochondria level, being able their products are really based on that you're not going to have again, crazy detox supplements. So, most people can tolerate at least to a small degree, I always say it's individual, you should always kind of look at who you are, what you have, what your goals are.

 

Because again, sometimes I think we hear things and we're like, oh, this is the roadmap, I need to detox, I need to liver do a liver blast, I need to do all these things. And that may not be true, right. And so, the ability in this day and age to just be able to chew and spit right, like what information is helpful, spit out what's not, and then maybe tuck away in my brain what might be helpful down the road.

 

Yeah, I think that those companies are the only companies I ever feel confident being like, most people would benefit from kind of playing around with those products. Yep, I don't think I think everything we talked about just feels super fundamental and foundational. I think encouraging people to really know where they're not thriving and to be really honest and raw with themselves as to what they are, what God has for them and where they're maybe not stewarding or operating fully right with the knowledge they have in those places. I think can be really helpful.

 

It's kind of like going on a trip without a destination, right? Like you're just kind of wandering. And I feel like this stuff is so beautiful and so wonderful to incorporate in our lives.

 

But if we don't actually have a picture of what we're trying to achieve in the process, I feel like we kind of just get tossed around. And so, while this stuff is all wonderful and the nutrition and focusing on I think if we don't really know where we're trying to go with it, then it can just get really muddied.

 

Laura Dugger: (45:22 - 46:11) I think that's so good to talk about purpose and be aware. And I love this conversation how you've incorporated for us as the parent, but also for our children. And I will link to one other episode as well with Dr. Charles Fay, where he talks about raising emotionally healthy and mentally healthy children. He wrote a book with Dr. Amen. And in the episode, he just talked about instilling purpose in our children and talking about that, because God does have a purpose for them as well. And so, I love how you're bringing all of this back as you've done so well shining your faith throughout this conversation.

 

But Emily, you know, we are called The Savvy Sauce, because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

 

Emily Johnson: (46:13 - 46:57) Yeah, you I knew this question was coming. And honestly, I was like, how do I pick just one? So, I think this is what I'm going to say.

 

Discipline equals freedom. And I have just found for me that kind of that savvy sauce, and it may change that discipline may change over a period of time. But if I can get real honest with what I need to be disciplined in in the moment, it gives me so much freedom for the rest of my day.

 

And so, being disciplined it used to feel constraining. And now it actually feels like, I don't have to think about right. Decision fatigue is a real thing.

 

And so, if I can just be disciplined, there's so much freedom that happens in my day with that.

 

Laura Dugger: (46:57 - 47:32) Wow, I love that so much. And I love how self-control I think of self-discipline as a fruit of the spirit. And that's what I've experienced.

 

You've cultivated that fruit in your life. And we've gotten to experience the good sweet fruit in this conversation and the abundant life that you're living in the overflow. So, thank you for walking this journey while stewarding all of this well and sharing so generously with each of us.

 

You are just a delight to spend time with. So, thank you for being my guest.

 

Emily Johnson: (47:32 - 47:35) Yes, thank you. Oh my goodness, such kind words.

 

Laura Dugger: (47:36 – 51:19) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

 

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

 

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

 

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

 

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

 

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

 

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

 

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

 

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

 

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

 

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

 

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

 

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

 

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.